eBay Buyer Incentives Are Not a Good Bargain 54 comments
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When is a sale not a good bargain? When it's an eBay (EBAY) sale. Tuesday, eBay announced a new holiday buyer incentive program (starts Nov 3 for 45 days). It is a prime example of why eBay stock has plummeted under Donahoe's watch because discounts are not applied at the time of purchase. Who wants a Paypal credit 2 months later? Not me.
This long time seller read the terms & conditions and discovered:
- Buyers only have 60 minutes from the time they go from Microsoft Live Search to eBay, find IT, and then click buy IT (Paypal only) to qualify for cash back rewards;
- The rewards are actually Paypal credits good for eBay purchases only; and
- Paypal holds buyers' Paypal credits for 60 days before releasing them. This author suspects Paypal is using these funds to earn money on the float the same way it does when it places holds on sellers' accounts.
What else is wrong with this sale? It is nearly impossible for a buyer to find anything on eBay because Best Match doesn't work. This means buyers may not be able to take advantage of the holiday incentives, which may be a blessing in disguise.
The free shipping icon started appearing in many sellers' listings over a week ago despite shipping costs being stated. Local pick up and delivery is also set to Free by default. This may be enough to push small sellers over the edge because when a buyer sees Free Shipping he/she expects it to be free. No resolution appears to be in sight.
So what kind of sale is this? I don't know but I'm beginning to think it was designed it to rid eBay of small sellers because sellers will probably get placed on suspension for dinged stars as a direct result of shipping that isn't free & discounts that don't instantly materialize.
Small sellers will also have Paypal holds to deal with because many featured items are considered "high risk" (electronics, DVD movies, etc.) and subject to an automatic 21 to 180 day hold. This is how a couple sellers are dealing with Paypal holds:
rootmandude: Paypal is holding hundreds of dollars. I'm DONE - finished as a seller here on eBay. I'm never using Paypal again. If this policy isn't revoked, I'm DONE. All those years of painstakingly giving a damn about building a reputation as a great eBay member - all flushed down the toilet by a few idiots who just don't get IT.
jaycpotter: I have sent all my buyers since Friday notices that I am refunding all purchases and No Longer Accepting Paypal. If Paypal is going to hold my money I'm not interested in using Paypal. I have not had any disputes in 4 years.
This author wonders why the State of California, the remaining 49 states, and the Federal government has given eBay/Paypal the authority to mandate what form of payment buyers & sellers can use, especially in light of the Sherman Antitrust Act.
Does anyone know where Arnold is? Sellers sure could use his help.
Stock position: None.
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This article has 54 comments:
What a pity. Ebay has become a lousy deal for everyone involved--buyers, sellers, and investors. A triple play of incompetence.
But hey, I'll make their board of directors a great offer. Whatever they're paying John Donahoe, I'll keep running Ebay into the ground for half that amount. I couldn't do any worse.
Scott
Irene
FeeBay and PreyPal now triple and quadruple dip into sellers’ profits, freeze sellers' PayPal funds for weeks on end, offer ZERO seller protection, and customer service has been diminished to cut and paste email replies and employed "script readers" on the phone. It has become a joke. Mr. Donahoe had the nerve to refer to seller's complaints this past year as "NOISE". It would appear that he is having trouble squelching the volume of that noise now. Face it, when the economy is bad, people look for a bargain. eBay used to be that perfect place to find fabulous deals at great prices. It also used to be a fun and exciting environment to be in. Now it's just a nightmare experience for more and more every day and the stock is indeed reflecting the pitiful course Donahoe has chosen. What a waste…
Ebay is a VENUE -- it used to allow buyers and sellers to trade to the benefit of both. Now it is an arrogant control freak with O.C.D. The only one benefitting is the Ebay board in bonus options etc.
They still refuse to pay shareholders a dividend, and avoid all questions in regards to dividends. This means holding Ebay stock has proven to be losing proposition, unless you can short the stock.
Now when you check out a sign will flash...WAIT! If you purchase $$$$$ more dollars you can qualify for free shipping!
You can buy merchandise for a total well over $300.00 worth and still not qualify for free shipping! Seems that quite a few sellers are no longer offering FREE shipping with their products on Amazon!
EBay is a better deal! We have become a nation of selling each other the same products! Lol. You can buy PINZON sheets on Amazon...eBay...Overst... 100 more places, lol.
eBay had unique items that none of the other sites have! One of a kind! Only 10 made!
Dear Mr. Donahoe! Bring back the OLD eBay for Christmas! And please, please, pay us poor investors a small dividend!
We all need to stop buying cheap stuff made in China! We need to make it here in the USA. Now more than ever!
As for requiring paypal? Again, nobody's FORCING you to use it, credit card payments are also acceptable, (and apparently cash if you read the above) so there is no way to file a successful anti-trust suit against them for forcing the use of paypal. They are merely forcing you to offer it as a choice, untimately it is the buyer who will make their choice of what payment system to use.
How is this seller dealing with the changes ebay has made in the past year? Click on the link I added to this comment and you'll see. Then please go to onlineauction.com and see all the items I am now selling there for lower opening bids that I would have had on ebay, since I will not incur any additional fees to sell there I can afford to list them for less.
lookingwst
How long is Ebay's board of directors going to back this clown? Is there more to it than just plain stupidity? Should I follow the money?
Just a short note to say THANK YOU for your comments.
I think everyone can agree that DONAHOE is the problem and the only solution is for the board to fire him IF they want to salvage eBay.
And eBay has a lot of nerve announcing a "sale" that is anything but a sale because the word REBATE was never mentioned - not even once!
Shirley
Answer: NOWHERE. Read it again. The rebate is deposited into your Paypal account. You can spend it anywhere that accepts Paypal, withdraw the funds to your bank account, or request a check sent to you in the mail.
Read again..its in there,you cant spend it anywhere you want.
"Additional Redemption Requirements. In addition to the redemption requirements in Program Terms, You must redeem Cashback Rewards obtained as a result of a purchase on eBay.com exclusively via your PayPal account. "
Shirley
Like "self-insurance" I charge buyers for insurance to recoup the paypal fees (since paypal is insurance for buyers).
I mark-up my shipping as much as possible ($3.50 to ship small books via media mail).
Still Ebay is my venue of last resort... I run my stuff thru amazon, craiglist for a few months before I bottom fish on ebay.
In the meantime, a vast majority of sellers now leaving eBay are the ones who should be leaving. Let them pollute the net elsewhere.
eBay will be just fine - they can't advertise to attract more buyers until the culture change is complete. Mark my words - eBay will still be the largest ecommerce site in volume, selection and traffic 1, 5 and 10 years from now.
I shop almost exclusively online because it's more convenient and I've never gone to a website that offered a sale or any other discount (with the exception of Staples rebates) and not received my discount IMMEDiATELY as part of the transaction.
The 60 day hold on buyer's rewards is insane & designed for one purpose only - to line Paypal's pockets with money earned on the float because it doesn't take 60 days to process a payment!
And no, I don't hate eBay but I do take exception to any CEO who systematically destroys successful sellers & their families by introducing disruptive innovations that don't make sense & never work.
Former eBay Leaders Ready to Launch new Online-Marketplace
Press release will be published on 14th November. It will be a marketplace, without DSR's, without high fees, without strange suspensions. Protected for re-shipment, non payment and much more. A marketplace FOR Sellers AND buyers.
The site is now open for registration, selling (with a free store:)) is possible from the 21st November.
Business as usual, thats their motto!
Has anyone else noticed how few buyers are bothering to post feedback, now that only they can post negatives (and sellers only positives). My total feedbacks posted, as a percentage of total items sold, is now about 1/2-1/3 of what it was previously; for instance, only about 20-30 per month, where before it was 60-90 per month. Buyers just aren't bothering to post FB any more. Those changes killed FB, IMHO. Previously, feedback had some problems, and it was some times used improperly, but it did work. Now, it just doesn't work at all, and is totally meaningless.
How can you Not be outraged at the direction John Donahoe has taken the company, and the stock price with it??
A little online research will show how "disgruntled" many present day eBay employees have become. I'm talking actual employees, not just the sellers.
How in the hell can you keep such a positive outlook about IT's future??
www.businessweek.com/s...
Two pages to the article.
Dinah - I at least give you props for hanging out to discuss your article. See, I don't believe this PayPal arrangement is due to eBay's preference. I happen to think this is how Microsoft arranged it. Furthermore, if in fact it IS something that PayPal wrote into the agreement, it was probably necessary to cover the fact that they are eating 25-30% of the total transaction amount. Stop and think about this for a while - they are giving you up to 30% off of the transaction amount up to $200, and you can do this (currently) up to TWELVE TIMES! And this is the point that you choose to beat down the company with? This is the equivalent of being given a nice big cake for your birthday and then bitching that it wasn't a pie instead.
"How can you Not be outraged at the direction John Donahoe has taken the company, and the stock price with it??
A little online research will show how "disgruntled".... many present day eBay employees have become. I'm talking actual employees, not just the sellers." - Bob C
Bob - let me give you some insight on my position. I've made my living on eBay for over three years now. I do this full time. I teach; I consult, I sell for other folks. I don't often participate in comments or response sections like this because I really don't have time, but I DO read just about every article on eBay on a daily basis - all the blogs, all the news posts, all the stock reviews, eBay discussion boards (including PESA) - you get the idea. I've taught at eBay Live and had several higher-profile media spots. And let me tell you that I am SICK and tired of seeing eBay beat to a bloody pulp every time it sneezes. Everybody wants to say that EVERYBODY else agrees that the site is headed downhill - and for once, I'm standing up and saying that's not true.
There are MILLIONS of active sellers on eBay, and a few of them get empowered behind the anonymity of the keyboard and think that they are something special and start to bash eBay. It's nothing more than the traditional news stories anymore - nobody wants to hear "good samaritan" stories anymore, we want the blood, guts, gore and drama that comes from lousy life experiences. The fact is that a good amount of those sellers - probably the majority - are doing well on eBay that they simply don't have time to speak up and don't really have a mind to care about what others say.
eBay is MUCH safer today than it was a year or even six months ago. It is STILL number one in buyers and selection, and this is after what is admittedly a MAJOR disruption to it's core system functions. Wrap your hands around that - eBay made some significant, needed and much-overdue moves to it's site, pissed a bunch of people off, and it's STILL number one!
I'm putting my money where my mouth is - eBay is here, it's strong, it's a better place today as a result of all the changes they've made and isn't going anywhere.
This 60-day thing is NOT even a PayPal issue! It's MICROSOFT's money! The program is funded by MICROSOFT! From the Terms and Conditions on the link, the program is FUNDED by Microsoft! It comes from Bill Gates and co, and eBay's participation in the program only stipulates that buyers must PAY with PayPal and then have the rewards credited to their account AFTER the 60-day MICROSOFT hold is completed.
My points above were to the effect that even if it was PayPal-related, it shouldn't matter. Since it's clearly NOT a PayPal issue, it most certainly is irrelevant to any agenda you are trying to pursue here.
Take this information from somebody who has actually used the program - it's clear that you haven't.
But the logistics probably aren't important anyway because it's doubtful if many buyers can go from LIVE SEARCH, to eBay, find IT, and buy IT within 60 minutes because best match is the biggest joke on the internet. It also seriously disadvantages small sellers.
Have a great weekend.
You're welcome....I'm sure that you meant to thank me for my 11 years of all positive feedbacks that helped build the site that is making your living.
"Everybody wants to say that EVERYBODY else agrees that the site is headed downhill - and for once, I'm standing up and saying that's not true"
I say: Check the yearly stock chart.
"There are MILLIONS of active sellers on eBay, and a few of them get empowered behind the anonymity of the keyboard"
I say: Sorry treesalt, didn't catch your eBay ID listed here.
You seem like a "how to" Guru and I am just curious if the new rules will impact your business ? When you tell someone how easy it is to sell on Ebay and you will teach them.....but.... bear in mind you will need to sell your product, ship it at your expense, then wait 21 days to see if you get your money from Paypal. What reaction do you get ? Then you tell them that is only for your first year. What reaction do you get ? Are you going to run out of pupils that would benefit from you knowledge ?
just going over the 3 enumerated points.
1. this is the closest to be accurate.. yes you have 60 mins after clicking on the advertisement on live.com if you got outside of that window, you can always go back and click it again for 60 more mins.
2. wrong. the funds go to your paypal account as balance so it's not for ebay purchases only. you can even withdraw it to a bank account if you wish
3. wrong. paypal does see the money at all. microsoft is the one that's holding the cashback for the 60 days.
i didn't even both reading the rest of the article.. pretty ludicrous.
How is PayPal holding your money? When you pay full price for the item, all of the funds go from your account to the sellers account. PayPal holds none of it. After 60 days, Microsoft sees the transaction, realizes that they need to refund 30% of it, and do so by crediting the money to your PayPal account. I don't see how this is hard to understand. This discount isn't affecting the seller, they are receiving the full amount.
"Additional Redemption Requirements. In addition to the redemption requirements in Program Terms, You must redeem Cashback Rewards obtained as a result of a purchase on eBay.com exclusively via your PayPal account. "
The reward that you earned by buying an item on eBay.com, must be redeemed via your PayPal account. This means that you earned the rebate by buying on eBay.com, and your reward will be paid to your PayPal account, and will not be sent to you by check, money order, or any other method. It does NOT mean that you are forced to spend that money on eBay.com.
Dinah, maybe if instead of being a "hater," if you actually try it out, you'll know how it actually works and maybe (just maybe) realize it's a pretty good deal. I agree that It's not for everyone because there are a number of hoops and steps to jump through, as well as the wait. But they are not difficult things to do. Here's what I think: make me do a few things and wait a few weeks if it means higher discounts. Heck, I'll do it all and more if I can get 30% (or 25% right now) cash back.
I honestly don't know how MS & eBay pay for this given that my Powerseller fees to eBay and PP fees don't come anywhere close to the 25% or 30% of transaction price that I've gotten back.
"No matter what the reason for the Paypal 60 day hold, it's wrong, doesn't benefit consumers, and Paypal still earns money on the float. Paypal can claim that they're worried about chargebacks but this is nonsense because chargebacks are actually charged back to the seller."
Not sure why you think this is wrong.
For the seller, they get their money right away (unless they have bad feedback, in which case they get the 21 days hold, but that's self induced... all merchant accounts have similar restrictions).
For the buyer, I need to wait 60 days to get 25% of my purchase price back. That seems pretty decent to me. All I have to do is: 1) not return the item (imagine that), 2) not commit fraud like using stolen credit card to make purchase, and 3) actually request the cash back. None of this actually sounds that bad. I've done a lot of rebates offline... and trust me, this is MUCH, MUCH more reliable and easier.
PayPal makes no float on these funds since it pays out almost all of it to the seller anyways, except for their fees, as pointed out above.
On balance, it DEFINITELY benefits me as the buyer (i.e. cash back on my purchase). For seller, you are no worse off since you don't even know if the buyer is using cash back or not. In fact, I think sellers are better off because I see my items selling quicker and at higher price. So tell me (with logic and hard evidence this time), why this is so wrong.
I have issues with the site too, just like everyone else. I agree that rules do change too often, many times without adequate communication. But I also take issue when someone rips on a generous program with no logic or basis for the criticism.
You expect unrealistic customer satisfaction that eBay cannot even live up to.
I started selling vintage and collectible items on eBay because it is a way for me to be at home and available for my son who is now in 6th grade he is a full inclusion special ed student due to having Spina Bifida. eBay was such a grace.
Now it is a well that is slowly drying up. Community is a word that I do not think you have a right to keep spitting out as a way of shutting down this"noise".
You owe the customers(sellers) and the investors the admission to walk into your gated community.
Here is an innovative idea...
let it go
sharing is a good thing
and by the way shipping is not free, if you offer free shipping to MY customers you will be in violation for disrupting my listing. That is a violation of eBay rules.
I plan on doing a lot of my shopping on ebay this year which I have never done in the past because of the cashback program
its 25 percent now which is awesome but going up to 30 percent I think in the next week
DUde onlineauction.com looks like something i can ask my little brother to create. Are you kidding me?
On Oct 30 05:18 PM shirley kay wrote:
> I will try onlineauction.com thank you.
> Shirley
>
By the way, let's watch the breaking news on the latest ebay corruption: the e-checks thru Paypal that DON'T work. Notifications that the checks have cleared but, oh, oops, sorry, seller, no, it hasn't cleared after all. And etc. Another straw on the camel's back.
Time to light a fire under the Governor, and the State Attorney General.
Enough is enough.
I've a feeling that once the Presidential election is over, IT is going to break loose!!! I, for one, am going to do my best to help it do so!!!
You asked for a simple "How can you support Donahoe" statement and then take my response as a personal attack - may I note that your eBay ID is not listed in your notes as well, and I'm sure you will not reveal it for the same reason that I will not reveal mine.
rctman - in regards to the response by new people learning about eBay, increasingly the trend is that people who are going to be successful on eBay need to be dedicated to delivering a good experience to their customers. I've taught many an individual who needs to be guided to the "blue E" - other tech-savvy people may simply refer to it as the "Internet Explorer Icon". We've had many classes where the first hour was a computer basics/web tutorial. And to think - eBay for 13 years has been trying to make a living off of these kinds of people. Imagine going in to a grocery store and having a cashier have to hunt for the magic button to get the conveyor belt moving, then has to hunt and peck for the keys, then needs to ask her manager for guidance on how to properly bag the groceries, then needs to know WHY she can't put the bread and eggs underneath the canned goods. You get the point - my experience has been that, by and large, THESE are the kinds of people who are claiming that eBay is trying to put them out of business - when in reality, all that is really happening is that the global community is pushing the standard for ecommerce higher and higher. eBay needs to keep up with that standard.
More and more I am dealing with large businesses who want to grow on eBay to increase their market share. But the average consumer who wants to sell on eBay continues to be a market as well. In fact, most people are generally accepting of PayPal holds - because hey, if PayPal is going to GUARANTEE your buyer that they will be happy to help them feel secure in purchasing from you, that is worth something, right? They hold the funds as collateral until you have delivered on your promise. Some people don't like that, and so we explain the requirements and costs of a merchant account.
I think people who are opposed to these policies should have to teach them to somebody else. It's hard for people to swallow now because it is a change, albeit a dramatic one. But when you put it in context... it's no different than a bank choosing not to honor a check when there are no funds in the account.
eBay and PayPal have revolutionized ecommerce - even given it birth - and did so by making the barriers to entry as small and uncumbersome as possible. Human nature has seen people exploit the weaknesses in that revolution, and now it's time to close the door on that era and open another.
blog.auctionbytes.com/...
Our busy bee, treesalt, has been cheerleading there too. 94 comments, last check, and ony a couple touting the greatness of eBay.
I'm glad I'm not selling, and having my funds held, with no recourse at this time.
hopefully this one will load.
Dinah Balk, you're a parody of a columnist. Your claims are indefensible. You said that "eBay Buyer Incentives Are Not a Good Bargain" in your title. But you have failed to prove it. Anything that gives buyers money off their purchase, especially in the amounts Microsoft is offering, can be considered a very good deal.
Take a look around you. We're in the middle of a financial meltdown. Brick-and-mortar chains are going out of business (Mervyn's and Linens-N-Things if you need examples). Retail is taking a massive hit this holiday season. And eBay is most certainly in the business of retail, even if it took them a decade to realize it.
The cashback program may very well be the airbag that allows eBay sellers who make their living from eBay sales to survive the crash.
Further to your article, your assertion that Best Match "doesn't work" is beyond stupid. Give me any product. Anything. If it's legal and allowed on eBay, I'll find it for you with one search. What Best Match does not do is to allow sketchy sellers to spam categories with irrelevant listings to crowd out others. In short, it levels the playing field so the little guy can compete. Imagine that.
And you're still lying about this mythical 180 day hold at PayPal. As has been mentioned before, PayPal sometimes holds funds for 21 days. Often less. Never more. And certainly not 180. Are you actually accountable to anyone for ensuring that your articles are truthful?
The reason this is 180 days is that anyone who paid via credit card is able to file a chargeback within this time frame. The funds will be hold for 180 days starting at the day the last payment was received. After the 180 days, the funds will be released to withdrawl.
The reason I know this? I am a PayPal employee!
On Nov 05 12:24 AM Mokkori wrote:
> Who wants a Paypal credit 2 months later? Only a consumer with a
> shred of sense. So perhaps not you, but hopefully the vast majority
> of the population.
>
> Dinah Balk, you're a parody of a columnist. Your claims are indefensible.
> You said that "eBay Buyer Incentives Are Not a Good Bargain" in your
> title. But you have failed to prove it. Anything that gives buyers
> money off their purchase, especially in the amounts Microsoft is
> offering, can be considered a very good deal.
>
> Take a look around you. We're in the middle of a financial meltdown.
> Brick-and-mortar chains are going out of business (Mervyn's and Linens-N-Things
> if you need examples). Retail is taking a massive hit this holiday
> season. And eBay is most certainly in the business of retail, even
> if it took them a decade to realize it.
>
> The cashback program may very well be the airbag that allows eBay
> sellers who make their living from eBay sales to survive the crash.
>
>
> Further to your article, your assertion that Best Match "doesn't
> work" is beyond stupid. Give me any product. Anything. If it's legal
> and allowed on eBay, I'll find it for you with one search. What Best
> Match does not do is to allow sketchy sellers to spam categories
> with irrelevant listings to crowd out others. In short, it levels
> the playing field so the little guy can compete. Imagine that. <br/>
>
> And you're still lying about this mythical 180 day hold at PayPal.
> As has been mentioned before, PayPal sometimes holds funds for 21
> days. Often less. Never more. And certainly not 180. Are you actually
> accountable to anyone for ensuring that your articles are truthful?
Now if you're referring to free PayPal accounts, you shouldn't complain. It's like having to tolerate ads that appear with free software. Those who invest nothing in a service or more likely to abuse that service, and there's a noticible propensity for fraudulant activity associated with free PayPal accounts. If PayPal makes the decision to hold back funds, well of course the funds are going to continue earning interest fo PayPal. That's a non-brainer.
Want good quality? Cough-up the money.
Dinah,
In truth, the ebay / paypal cheerleaders are getting so monotonous and boorish it's getting to be a chore to bother responding. :~}
I think this "tree-salt" and all other Pro-Ebays who posted a remarks like an echo of the Griff who is in the payroll of Ebay.
For one thing they have one motive, that is:
trying to save the Ebay stock???XXX****** that has been sinking down the drain. That is all what their posts are all about.
Well it's too late Pro-Ebayers, the street has made a decision. Drop to $13.96 and then to $12 in the next coming month.
Anti-Ebayers, all we have to just look at is their MOTIVATION for their blogs. You need not debate on their content...it's just the motivation. For all you know it may just be 1 person flooding this blog with a postive outlook on the FEEBAY!***%$$???
Sound familiar?
If BML had been a respectable venue, I've not doubt Amazon would have snapped it up!
Ebay and Bill Me Later. Certainly not a match made in heaven.
How do these "venues" find each other?
LOL!
To many folks around the world have been affected by their draconian rule changes and feral cash grabbing. Keep up the great work. Eternal vigilance is required to counter their never ending propaganda machine.
The Paypal maneuvers a Microsoft issue? Complete B.S.. Whatever eBay/PayPal owes to Microsoft, Microsoft would not be able to force eBay/PayPal to ban any other form of payment besides credit cards or PayPal. That was required to prevent widespread avoidance of PayPal, and it required eBay's connivance. This is all part of a pattern of greasy little maneuvers that go along with the increases in fees and the screwing of the sellers, and it's the ultimate in sour grapes to say that any eBay seller that leaves is one that eBay is better off without. Hope you wake up some time and discover who you've been sleeping with.
Oh, and Bill Me Later? Why doesn't eBay also buy payday lenders and whorehouses, while they're at it? eBay has turned soulless right up and down the line.