Vectren Corp. Q3 2008 Earnings Conference Call Transcript

| About: Vectren Corp (VVC)

Vectren Corp. (NYSE:VVC)

Q3 FY08 Earnings Call

October 31, 2008, 02:00 PM ET


Steven M. Schein - VP of IR

Niel C. Ellerbrook - Chairman and CEO

Robert L. Goocher - VP and Treasurer

Carl L. Chapman - President and COO


Paul Patterson - Glenrock Associates

Barry Klein - Citigroup


Good afternoon. My name is Christine and I will be your conference operator today. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to the Vectren Third Quarter Earnings Conference Call. All lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise. After the speakers' remarks there will be a question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions].

I'll now turn the call over to Steve Schein, Vice President of Investor Relations.

Steven M. Schein - Vice President of Investor Relations

Thank you, and good afternoon to all on behalf of Vectren. We do welcome you to our third quarter 2008 earnings conference call. This call is being webcast and accompanying slides are available on our website.

I would also like to remind you the statements made on this call will be forward-looking statements. They are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those discussed in the presentation. Please refer to our latest Form 10-K and subsequent reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commissions which discussed forward-looking statements in more detail.

Today joining us, we're going to have Niel Ellerbrook, our Chairman and CEO; Carl Chapman, our Chief Operating Officer; Jerry Benkert, our Chief Financial Officer; Ron Christian, General Counsel and Secretary and Robert Goocher, our VP and Treasurer and again questions at the end of our prepared remarks and then I will turn it over to Niel, Niel?

Niel C. Ellerbrook - Chairman and Chief Executive Officer

Thanks Niel. We are very pleased to be able to share the news of went over all was a very good quarter. We reported $0.29 versus $0.18 a year ago. Quarterly earnings reflect outstanding performance for ProLiance as ProLiance used its assets to take advantage of significant cash to NYMEX spreads and our utility business has also increased earnings from $0.14 a year ago to $0.17 this year.

Utility earnings reflect primarily the net benefits of the Vectren rate increase and rate design, implemented in February, offset somewhat by less favorable weather. Year-to-date, we reported $18 down somewhat from the $25, we've reported a year ago, growth in utility earnings from $0.92 to $1.04 this year was offset by reduction in earnings from our coal operations and the real estate investment charge.

We recognized we are in midst of an extremely uncertain and challenging economic environment. Given that environment, I'm asking my colleagues to cover in some detail on number of topics. Jerry Benkert will discuss credit support needs for both our utility businesses as well as ProLiance and how we expect to meet those needs.

I've asked Robert Goocher to discuss the implication of the decline in the market value have already define benefit plan pension assets, as that decline relates to future funding requirements and expense. Insurance is going to cover utility performance in more details.

Carl Chapman will discuss the impairment charge we recorded relating to certain commercial real estate assets, the ownership of which states back to the 90s. He will also discuss ProLiance performance and outlook and we'll cover the performance of our coal operations, but more importantly our outlook for 2009 and beyond for coal which looks very promising.

And finally, he will discuss the status of the liberty underground storage project. Let me conclude by saying that we believe that we should be able to complete 2008 within the previously stated earnings guidance range $1.60 to $1.75 excluding any obvious non-recurring charges or credits, and finally, I am always please to be able to remind everyone of the dividend increase of 3.1% that we announced last Tuesday.

The payment of the dividend on December 1 will marked to 49th consecutive year, we have increased dividends paid to our shareholders. Jerry?

Thanks Niel. Given the economy we're working, the reserve constraint there out there in the credit market, I'll move right into our ratings are available liquidity and things. So you'll see that on the next slide... one comment I'd make just from size, I believe Vectren begins from a good position, support of regulations, stable utility results improved results there, solid credit ratings, you see A minus BAA 1 ratings, stable outlooks in the like, I think we're positioned well for capital access, although clearly we recognize we're in a more difficult and a new world there. Our short-term facilities are in very good shape and that's really what this page covers. On the utility side, borrowing capacity of $520 million and that's primarily one short facility for $515 million comes due November of 2010.

You can see 11 different banks involved in that. So it's large, its sizeable, its out there for a couple of years and we have $345 million available against that currently. We're likely to peak in the next month or two certainly perhaps in December even our way the utility borrowings. We are drawing on the line to some extent. We're also placing some CP.

On the non-utility side, we have a short-term, actually two lines of credit primarily adding up to the $385 million. That's Vectren and these lines support all the non-utility operations expect for ProLiance which stands on its own.

You can see again, the more significant line, 255 million through November 2010. We recently added an additional $120 million facility. That line is out for one year and each of these have multiple participating banks also. The available capacity against that line $95 million at the end of October. One other comment I make though is that we have additionally placed a bit of cash on our balance sheet.

So we have roughly $40 million at the utility level, $35 million at the non-utility level. Those investments are rose through some of these borrowings and I've say that's really assign that we've been cautious, I hope not overly cautious, but we've tended to look out for the next 30 days or so and make sure that we can assure the funds were available.

If you turn to the next page, next slide five maybe a quick look at the story for ProLiance itself. And ProLiance really runs its business based on its own equity balance but its grown over 12 years of successful operations, trade credit, and then there's facility if you will there's credit facility. They are in a position where business wise and business cycle wise, they invest cash for the better part of this summer.

But they start to peak and actually going and had some borrowings against the line over the course of the winter. They really don't have any significant levels of long-term debt outstanding. So this is the story.

In their case, they have $400 million credit facility, $300 million year around and a surge aspect to it also, the vast majority of it is also available at this time over $300 million. So they really are not deep into that facility at all. Their storage is nearly full and they're probably at their peak, at or very near their peak borrowings for this winter.

Their facility does expire in June of 2009 though nine participating banks and they continue to work very closely with those institutions towards looking at renewal and as they continue in discussions with their bankers and they've even discussed most recently possible impairment for liberty investment and Carl will get to that a little bit later today.

By going through those conversations, they remain optimistic since their major institutions will be inline and will renew the line, come this next spring. But having said that, certainly anticipates significantly higher pricing. As to where do they interact with counterparties and the kinds of businesses, they do business with greater than 90% of their 2008 sales have been through investment grade counterparties.

They really over a long period of time been pretty careful about the quality improve their transacting business with and selling to. And its paying dividends overtime. You can see that out of 2008 sales approaching $2.8 billion, they're over 30 day receivables stand at $1.1 million and write-offs year-to-date are less than $200,000. So just extremely slight they also start from a very solid place.

Now again, the economy might get a bit worse, but this has been well monitored and well controlled overtime. ProLiance is viewed as an excellent trading partner. Trade credit has actually been expanded to them in the last 60 days by roughly another $30 million.

Looking at overall debt and long-term debt for Vectren court, you can see with the 4 billion outstanding, the weighted average life for 14 years is probably just a bit longer than it had been. Maybe we have just left an extremely opportune credit market, but we also took advantage of it.

Our last three debt issuances of Boey [ph] in late '05 and '06 and early this year placed debt out for over 30 years in each case and the rates were between 5.9% and 6.25%. I wish it was still available today but we're very pleased that we took advantage of it when it was there.

As we look at refinancing requirements over the next couple of years you can see those showing up on this page and they're relatively modest overall. In this credit environment and given the increase in rates, I think its fairly likely that $80 million, piece of debt may come back to us in August. So that's coming up in 2009 perhaps, but overall not too much in the next two years.

Having said that I know that pension and pension assets have been of interest to the investing public and that's Robert Goocher, our Treasurer to make some comments on that subject.

Robert L. Goocher - Vice President and Treasurer

Thank you, Jerry. Vectren still has experienced significant declines in our defined benefit asset values as have thousands of other companies due to the significant declines in the value of the pension assets. However the Q3 impacts on expensing contribution levels won't really be normal until the after 12/31/08 valuation date and that'll impact 2009 and beyond, but we certainly expect those impacts to be manageable for us. We all have to remember defined benefit pension plans are obligation is provide benefits to employees and retirees of our long periods of time and you set aside assets overtime to ensure that those obligations can be met as they come to you.

Markets do go up and they go down overtime and obviously they've gone pretty dramatically in recent weeks. However, even though these are long-term obligation from an accounting and funding perspective and measurements of funding our requirements in pitch and expense as reflected in our company's financial statements are impacted by short-term changes in asset barriers and spot interest rates thus creating more volatility and expense in funding levels.

If you go back to December 31, '07 and look at our 10-K you'll find the pension plan asset barriers were approximately $212 million at that day and by September 30th they're down about 18% or $38 million to $174 million balance. October has been an even more ugly month and we would expect once everything said and done for month of October. Values were probably be down closer to 30% and maybe in the excess of $60 million since the beginning of the year.

Rising interest rates, if these things hold until year end should certainly result in the higher discount rate and that reduce benefit obligation calculations and would help lower pension expense, offsetting some other decline, impact of the decline in the asset values.

Put it in perspective also, 2008 our pension expense was $5.1 million and even if it were to be increased by say 50% to 100%. That would only add about $2.5 million to $5 million of additional expense in 2009 and beyond, so in manageable numbers.

However, on the funding side, without some relief from the Pension Protection Act, funding requirements it will certainly result in increased funding levels in 2009 and beyond again unless the market dramatically improves between year end and we don't really know what those amounts are, even on, either on the expense side or funding side until after the interest rates and the asset values are established as of December 31, 2008.

Okay, maybe the only thing I would add to that because obviously pension assets haven't been doing very well for many firms. It's probably just that we're less reliant than some given the heavy concentration of deploying contribution plans.

A number of our business and certainly on the non-bargaining side for the utilities themselves. Having said that we have some modest refinancing maybe some modestly higher pension asset investment, requirements or funding requirements and we will expect to reduce reliance on these lines of credit overtime. So I think you should anticipate that we will be looking to issue some level of additional utility and non-utility debt. We have no major generation investments in our capital forecast plans and certainly the utilities do have additional infrastructure spending needed replacement.

Many times we're timely rate recovery and as an example on the non-utility side, we certainly want to go ahead and complete and move ahead with the various coal mines we're trying to open up. At a times very well and off to really increase earnings in cash from the mining operations and Carl will speak to those a bit more. So there's certainly expansion that we're looking to do and spending.

We're continuing to refine those plans. We will share those plans perhaps later this year or early next year as it relates to '09 and beyond and likewise we're working on contingency sort of plans just given the markets and... so there'll be further update for comp.

If you turn to the next slide 7. Neil already gave highlights of the overall results and obviously it was a good quarter for us, ProLiance in a very big way. Our infrastructure businesses performed well and they were up for the quarter and certainly the utility has been up again for the year and also for this quarter.

The improved utility results Neil already commented. The rate cases there behind us in the Indiana territories continue to work their way into earnings and we have in Ohio case, the Wayne Commission Act that action presently. On the non-utility side, Carl will speak more but year-to-date, earnings are down somewhat as ProLiance over all even when the great quarter is down, coal mining and also there is the asset impairment on commercial real state.

Turning to page 8, just final comment or two on the utilities side. Our year-over-year weather for this but that's really because the last year especially had a hot summer, very hot summer. In 2008, weather was really about normal. So earnings in that respect are fairly representative. Wholesale power marketing margins are up also in addition to the rate increases which has helped us out.

Additional off peak volumes available for sale and just stronger pricing has helped in that regard. Final comment just relates to economy overall and I'd say we certainly are looking towards the future in building potential impacts to large customers where we think there maybe impacts into our plans there are contingencies and certainly there are some impacts on automotive, housing and pharmaceuticals by way its slow down but on a year-to-date sort of basis, sales from ethanol which have grown this year and we expect we'll continue to grow and Honda coming online in our Indiana gas territory. Those things have for the most part balanced out the pluses and minuses on large customer's year-to-date. So Carl.

Carl L. Chapman - President and Chief Operating Officer

Thanks Jerry and slide 9 provides a reconciliation of our non-utility results for last year. I'd also like to remind you that we will continue to provide detailed metrics for our four largest non-utility companies and you can find those on slide 16 and 17. And energy marketing services year-to-date results reflect both lower seasonal and cash to NYMEX opportunities. ProLiance is very strong optimization assets and they're skill set allow them to take advantage of return of cash to NYMEX spreads in the third quarter. And I'll have more comments on that in the next slide in just a moment.

Coal mining has struggled really all year from some lower production and higher cost, resulting primarily from mine safety and health administration provides guidelines and the quarter was also impacted by low BTU at our surface mine but with higher prices for coal now available which I'll discuss in more detail. We see strong earnings from coal in 2009 and beyond. Our earnings for structure companies metal pipeline and energy systems group combine continue to be down year-to-date from record 2007 earnings but both had very good third quarter results.

As Neil mentioned, we did record $0.07 impairment in the quarter due to our estimate of the economic downturn on some legacy commercial real estate investments and we'll have some more detail on that as well on a later slide.

Turning to slide 10, we'll discuss ProLiance results in some more detail. Storage optimization continues as the primary driver of ProLiance's earnings and 94% and 86% of margin in the quarter and year-to-date respectively. Historically about 20% to 50% of those optimization margins come from seasonal and 40% to 70% from cash to NYMEX and year-to-date both of those opportunities have been lower than historically available.

A storage, I do want to remind you it always hedge, we don't make trades based on pure price speculation. However the seasonal spreads low, ProLiance did use a short-term hedging strategy which allowed us to take advantage of the extreme price drop from $13 to $7 again we did not increase our open position risk with this strategy, but it was a strategy that worked very well and then further cash to NYMEX spreads, both cash to the current month and location were very strong as the prices dropped as I described and what would that continued somewhat in October, there has been a bit of decline but again right now those cash to NYMEX spreads are strong.

However since the seasonal spreads have not yet returned to historic levels, this could impact earnings from optimization activities in the 2008 and 2009 winter heating season. However we've considered this in our earnings guidance and I would note that a continuation of the current cash to NYMEX spreads for more historic seasonal spreads would provide very nice upside opportunities at ProLiance for the fourth quarter '08 and into '09.

We will obviously have some greater visibility when we roll out to 2009 guidance. Slide 11 summarizes what we believe should drive very good future results to coal mining. Illinois Basin pricing continues strong due to increasing demand from plants... coal plants that are now scrubbed and limited supply and the first of our Oaktown mines is on schedule for first coal May of next year

We now have over 120 million tons of total reserves, 88 million of which are at Oaktown and the total production ran out of ramp up for about 3.5 million in 2008 to 5 million in 2009 and then 8 million in 2011.

We're also making very good progress on our coal sales. 100% is now sold for 2009 and 85% in 2010. 80% of what's been sold for 2009 will also be at current prices. And including the one contract of older pricing that means the contracts are now done and signed for 4.5 million tons in 2009 and we are finalizing the contracts on the rest of the volumes for 2009.

A vigorous RFP process was done by Vectren power supply and fuels was awarded the majority of the volumes in that RFP process. And that's why those volumes are now done for Vectren power supply.

Given progress on Oaktown and sales contracts that I've mentioned and you can see the detail here on the slide. We're comfortable in suggesting an average of $8 to $12 pre-tax margin per ton margin and a course that's net of DD&A and that's what we will expect in 2009.

This will allow very nice turnaround in coal mining where we've not had the results would like in 2007 and now in 2008. But we also believe that our utility however has had access to reasonably priced coal as a result of our mining operations and that the RFP process has ensured a reasonable price for the utility going forward.

Slide 12 then provides you quick look at the impairment charge, as Niel said relating to assets that have been held for a long period of time. We also want to make sure that we provided you detail of what legacy investments been or included in other businesses.

While we routinely evaluate the caring value of these investments that's even more important given the unusual in evolving capital markets. And in this case, the real estate write-downs on these investments were driven by assumptions on higher capitalization rates and lower net operating income from the properties that we think could result from this capital market that we're in.

We are comfortable with the resulting caring value of the investments, as noted on the slide here on September 30. And again we just try to include some detail for you on those various investments.

I also want to provide a few comments on the disclosure we made regarding ProLiance investment with Sempra energy in the gas storage. And that's summarized upon slide 13. Of course you know liberty is owned 25% and 75% respectively by subsidiaries of ProLiance and Sempra.

And it was to be done in two locations, sulfur and hackberry, Louisiana. ProLiance as in investor in both of those locations and also had least approximately 5 Bcf of storage in sulfur. And the total Sulfur location investment that's what we're talking about in our disclosure today is $200 million; the ProLiance shares in a course at 50 million.

Unfortunately the sulfur side has been delayed by sub-surface and well completion problems. As Sempra is the operating partner we'll be doing substantial additional testing of the possible solutions in the fourth quarter and of course ProLiance will monitor that evaluation.

The partners felt at this time it appropriate given the problems experienced to disclose the possibility of impairment if these problems can't be resolved and that could be reduced capacity or it could result in inability to place the project in service.

As a result, Sempra has estimated what could be used at, the hackberry location if the sulphur location can't be placed in service and we think that would result in a max 35 million pre-tax impairment of ProLiance or $21 million at the Vectren level again on the pre-tax basis.

And while this is obviously disappointing news, we're still hopeful that sulphur can be placed in the service although we recognize that further testing could conclude otherwise. If impaired, we don't believe this would be immaterial adverse effect on ProLiance or Vectren's financial position, cash flow or liquidity that could be material in that net income in any given period.

It will not affect ProLiance's ability to serve customers and since we have never anticipated the storage build for the least storage until spring, there shouldn't be any real significant impact of what we had expected in 2009 on ProLiance's earnings from the operations of Liberty.

Just to wrap up then, let me just make a few summary comments. As Neil said, we did affirm the 2008 guidance of $1.60 to $1.75. In these difficult capital markets as Jerry went through, we believe we have adequate liquidity with quality partners. The utility results are stable due to the appropriate rate designs in rates that we have worked on over the past several years.

And market pricing and increased production should provide good 2009 and beyond coal mining results as we had talked about and we're happy to say as Neil mentioned that we increased the quarterly dividend by $0.01 or 3.1%. With that operator, I think we're ready for questions.

Question And Answer


[Operator Instructions]. Our first question comes from the line of Paul Patterson with Glenrock Associates. Your line is open.

Paul Patterson - Glenrock Associates

Good afternoon guys.

Carl L. Chapman - President and Chief Operating Officer

Hi Paul.

Paul Patterson - Glenrock Associates

First on the coal side, the 8 to 12 pre-tax margin. What kind of sale prices included in that for 2009?

Carl L. Chapman - President and Chief Operating Officer

Actually Paul we're not going to disclose the sales price right now. We roll out our guidance will have metrics but we think that while we continue to finalize just a little bit of contracting, all we want to do is just give you a good sense of what we think the resulting margin will be instead and we're comfortable with that range.

Paul Patterson - Glenrock Associates

Okay. When were the RFP's conducted or when were the bids put in for the 2009 contract?

Carl L. Chapman - President and Chief Operating Officer

Actually RFP's would have been in the last few weeks and we literally just signed contracts between Vectren Utility Holdings or City Care of the power supply towards the assets and fuels literally within the last few days.

Paul Patterson - Glenrock Associates

Okay. Can you give us a sense as to how they compare to coal prices on the market or is that thing going to wait on until we get better guidance for 2009?

Carl L. Chapman - President and Chief Operating Officer

Well again we believe that we'll give you more guidance as we roll it all out but I think its fair to say that we believe these are reasonably market prices but also a good price for the utility customer with a nice balance to reach there.

Paul Patterson - Glenrock Associates

Okay. Can you give us an idea of ... how much is depletion I guess, should we be thinking of that per ton. You mentioned that this 8 to 12 is including the effect of depletion, I believe correct?

Carl L. Chapman - President and Chief Operating Officer

Yes it is. I don't have that depletion numbers handy but again, we'll provide the whole metrics when we roll that out.

Paul Patterson - Glenrock Associates

Okay. I won't ask you too much more on that. Let me ask you that the commercial real estate business. How much does that contribute in terms of earnings, I mean and does this write-down reflect any potential impact in terms ongoing contribution from them?

Carl L. Chapman - President and Chief Operating Officer

Actually those investments were contributing very small amounts of earnings. So it should be no impact of any consequence going forward.

Paul Patterson - Glenrock Associates

Okay, and then finally the ProLiance. When you're looking at the four curve and I know it's a little early, but when you look at the four curve and you're looking at the spreads in terms of the differential. How does that look compared to this season which you guys have set it below its sort of level. What do you think about that, that outlook for storage optimization looking at the four curve for 2009?

Carl L. Chapman - President and Chief Operating Officer

Well the seasonal spreads are still low from what we would like to see but right now, the cash to NYMEX spreads are much higher than what we would anticipate it. So I think again the earnings right now are looking good, but there is no question that what we've tried to say is for 2009, as you look at that, that we do see some significant pressure on the seasonal spreads.

I still think it's too early. The way that the cash to NYMEX spreads change so rapidly and we could easily still see a change in that seasonal as or even in this starting in the early phases of the winter. Okay they are... I mean you can look at the forward curve right now and see that this winter spreads are still little bit low.

Paul Patterson - Glenrock Associates

Okay that's what I thought. So you feel that the other elements that you talked about we'd provide upside if those spreads don't improve?

Carl L. Chapman - President and Chief Operating Officer

Yes I think that if those spreads don't improve based on what we're seeing right now on cash for NYMEX, we think that's possible but I just think again we need more visibility. Obviously, we described to you last quarter that we have been disappointed all year long in really seeing a situation where month-to-month prices were very comparable even though total prices were going up a lot up and down and its just I think too early to see if that's completely moved away, that's what we saw on a way that was very unique for any period and we're just monitoring now and looking at the best way to hedge given that the seasonal low to NYMEX strong right now.

Paul Patterson - Glenrock Associates

Okay, I appreciate. Thanks a lot guys.


[Operator Instructions] our next question comes from the line of Faisel Khan with Citi, your line is open.

Barry Klein - Citigroup

Hi this is actually Barry Klein. How is it going guys?

Steven M. Schein - Vice President of Investor Relations

Hi, Barry.

Barry Klein - Citigroup

First question, with you leading to the energy infrastructure services, with the economic downturn, we think... how much of a decline have you seen in interests for projects?

Steven M. Schein - Vice President of Investor Relations

Barry, we really haven't seen any decline at this point, we obviously are watching very closely if we look at energy systems group, we're very watching closely that their customers, remember we don't provide the financing, but watching closely to their customers are going to be able to get financing but we've seen no drop at all in interest, I think even though there's been a drop in gas prices, electric prices across the country, they're still climbing and that's much more of our business so we see good activity there. And then as we look at Miller pipeline, we're watching closely whether utilities are going to announce cut backs in capital expenditures. Certainly at this point, we're not saying that, we're aware that capital constraints are real so we're watching that closely but right now there is just so much activity on their steel cast iron that we just aren't seeing any kind of indication of cutbacks yet.

Barry Klein - Citigroup

And with... regarding to the liberty and ProLiance there is... I guess we're talking about I guess storage expansion in 2009, storage capacity expansion. Is that where we'll see the impact from this Liberty storage in that incremental into 2-3 Bcf of storage or is it somewhere else?

Steven M. Schein - Vice President of Investor Relations

Yes actually what we had described was we were anticipating 47 Bcf at ProLiance and in our metrics last quarter. We're now seeing 42 with the delay obviously here from Liberty. On the other hand for 2009 certainly not an aided all but even for '09 we were not counting on large earnings from Liberty just setting us up for future years. So we'll see how it unfolds and how the project looks quarter from now.

Barry Klein - Citigroup

Okay. So I mean if nothing goes with Liberty and or it doesn't get placed into service. We're looking at probably a capacity of 42, basically where it was around in the 2007 beginning or the beginning of this year, remaining flat for the most part?

Steven M. Schein - Vice President of Investor Relations

Yeah I think it was actually 40. So now it would be at 42 because we added some other capacity and we'll certainly look at what are the capacities is available if this liability doesn't come through. So we're always looking at that, we have contracts expiring routinely and so we'll be looking at whether it makes sense to add any other capacity if this doesn't come through. But at this point again its too early to tell what that capacity is going to be there or not in sometime in '09.

Barry Klein - Citigroup

Got you and I don't know if you mentioned this... your guidance for 2009. When is that going to be given?

Steven M. Schein - Vice President of Investor Relations

Barry I sort of eluded to it. We haven't picked an actual speed yet and its partly to sort of looking that the economy and thinking about year end in things, it possible that we'll move into next year and consider giving it shortly before at the time of our first quarter results. So that's potential, but we have --

Barry Klein - Citigroup

First quarter or year end results?

Steven M. Schein - Vice President of Investor Relations

Year end.

Barry Klein - Citigroup

Okay, okay thanks a lot.


There are no further questions at this time. So I'd like to turn the call back over to Mr. Steven Schein.

Steven M. Schein - Vice President of Investor Relations

Well thank you all for your interest in Vectren and I will encourage you to give this call if you have any questions for those going out EEI, we look forward to see you there. Operator that does conclude our call.


Thank you Mr. Schein. You have a great day. This concludes our conference for today. You may now disconnect your lines. .

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