'The Shallowest Generation': A Rebuttal 51 comments
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Kudos to James Quinn for clearly hitting a nerve with his October 31, 2008 Seeking Alpha post about the Baby Boomers, titled the Shallowest Generation. It did a good job of putting together a lot of interesting statistics that I have seen individually in different places over the years (although it was a bit much for a blog post).
But as they say, statistics don’t lie but statisticians can. I say that because Quinn’s rant has a major logic flaw: I don’t see any connection between the demographic data and the economic data. It might be in there and just hidden by the length of the post but I don’t see the proof that it is people between ages 47-62 who are spending the money in the manner Quinn is railing on about (that is, borrowing beyond their means to pay for consumables that should only be owned by people of a higher station in life, running up credit card bills, spending more at casinos than church/temple/mosque, blah blah blah).
I am 62 so I’ll be one of the first guys through the chute. I do worry about my “little brother” (52) and what will have happened to the money “in his social security account” (ha-ha) by the time he needs it. I have a shot at getting my $200,000 back if I live to about 75. Figure in net present value vis a vis when I paid it in and what it will be worth when I take it all out and I’m getting about what a mortgage-backed security or a credit-default swap is worth today, cents on the dollar.
Of course there really is no “social security account.” The reason is that the “greatest generation,” about which Quinn longingly and admiringly blabbers, got my money. But no complaints here. In my case that included my grandmother who died at 98 having collected for years after paying nothing into social security, and my parents still going at 90 having paid in very little compared to what they have received back in the 28 years since they retired.
So yeah, I think FDR and LBJ are to blame for that screwup originally. And Tip O’Neil, Moynihan and Reagan screwed it up further. I agree with Quinn’s comment about “Baby Boomers have been occupying the White House for the last sixteen years” but we can’t blame Clinton and “W” for the financial system they inherited from the “greatest generation.” All this pair did in 16 years was explain oral sex and the need for elocution lessons to our grandkids.
Then Quinn goes on to claim that it is “not all Baby Boomers (who) are shallow, greedy, and corrupt… (only) Boomers with power and wealth.” But if they have wealth, how have they “lived above their means in order to keep up with their neighbors,” and how have they done anything wrong if they “bought whatever they wanted using debt…” That is capitalism: use someone else’s money, not your own, especially when you have your own. None of Quinn’s data supports his claim that Baby Boomers who have “wealth” are "shallow, greedy and corrupt.”
In fact none of his data supports any aspect of his claims. But the charts look convincing. I especially can’t find a source for the claim of 12% savings rate in 1980 (but can find sources that say it isn’t true). But even if it was true in 1980, it must have been a one-year aberration. As for the rest of his “savings/spending” data, baby boomers weren’t saving in the 1980s because we were raising our kids. Savings rates are likely down now because our kids are raising our grandkids. Or government statistics being what they are, savings rates are down now because all those wealthy 12 million illegal aliens are sending their money back to Mexico.
Quinn does point out some of the legitimate problems faced by those now between ages 35-39. But he goes on to say,
“Our economy favors education, entrepreneurship, and creativity. Those benefitting from a good education will make dramatically more money than the uneducated laborers.”
That’s why I remortgaged my house in the 1980s, to pay my 30-somethings’ college tuitions. Boy, that was “selfish” of me. Quinn's bio says he works for a college. Hey Quinn, I helped pay your exorbitant salary.
Quinn’s screed then descends into an indictment of government, corporatism, and so forth, blaming Bush and Bernanke. The jury’s still out on who or what caused the meltdown. Baby boomers Corzine and Paulson, successive heads of Goldman Sachs, would make my list of suspects along with Barney and Chris. But “W” and Bernanke are probably the least culpable people in the public arena. One’s an unsuccessful businessman who got his money and his political positions the old fashioned way, from his father and grandfather respectively. The other was a college professor until three years ago (and I’m sure he wishes he still was one).
Quinn takes a little side trip into how manufacturing was outsourced without explaining why and what the alternative would have meant economically.
By the way, Quinn, how come you got so many miles on your 6-year-old car? Don’t you realize that you’re the cause of global warming?
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This article has 51 comments:
"Quinn’s screed then descends into an indictment of government, corporatism, and so forth, blaming Bush and Bernanke. The jury’s still out on who or what caused the meltdown. "
If you can't figure out who or what caused the financial meltdown, you need a lesson in what constitutes fraud. This is not rocket science. From what we know of the behavior of the loan originators to the investment banks and their complying rating agencies, any reasonable person can come to the conclusion that material facts were intentionally obfuscated. The re-packaging and fraudulent ratings of securities and the trillions of dollars of murky credit default swaps built into a Ponzi scheme pyramid epitomizes this blatent criminal behavior.
The greedy perpetrators will never be brought to justice as long as there are apologists like you who refuse to see the dark side of the cozy relationship between the politicians and Wall Street.
No doubt about it, you boomers are not going to have quite the luxurious retirement that you've been expecting unless you've shown decades of restraint in your finances and personal behavior. I fear that most of you havent.
Debt like any powerful item is a double edged sword. Too much of it is dangerous despite it being freely available. Water is good, essential and quite affordable but if you think copious quantities incessantly it can even lead to death. Likewise debt. It is there but we have to recognize that like fire it is a good servant but a bad master. Lehman found it out too late; many other examples. A whole generation of boomers is now finding out that debt can be a bad master, can lead to wealth destruction.
I didn't vote for our President - Elect. But wonder if his victory has a referendum against the "whiners", who have taken so much and not given much back. Their parents, the greatest generation, must be so "disappointed". Which in my personal life were the worst words I ever heard from my parents.
Clearly, to generalize at all about a generation is flawed by the internal diversity of any large group. There may be averages and medians, but there are also a LOT of folks out on the edges of the bell curve.
The major difference I see in American society from when I grew up - in the 1950's - to now is a change from self-reliance to reliance on government for essentially every problem. One of the key reasons people don;t save anymore is that they expect the government to step in and take care of them if they can't. There was a time when one HAD to have a safety cushion of one's own for a rainy day.
One thing is certain, however. In current circumstances, we Americans need to unite and support radical change in how our government does business and how it regulates other businesses. The mess we are now in could not have happened if controls were in place.
One aspect of that change is we need to identify the perps that caused this mess and out them and prosecute them if possible. Let 'em get away with it this time and they'll do it again, and others will see that it's OK to flaunt the rules and common sense.
Finally, the law of logical consequences should be allowed to work. People who ran their companies into the ground should be allowed to fail. No more big nanny government fixing their "owies". Quit stealing money from taxpayers to bail out idiots.
could talk all day about who is to blame for the debt bomb, and who is more shallow. neither is a function of age. has anybody thought about torching madison avenue yet?
It's a mistake to generalize as you have. Like Notsosmart above, I have no debt. I pay my bills in full every month. I haven't bought a new car since 1978; I drive a 17 year old Volvo. I worked for not-for-profit agencies for two years without pay. I give to charity.
I come from a family that insisted on honesty, respect, generosity, responsibility and self-reliance. I was born in 1947.
If you put 200K into SS over the years you were one well compensated dude. You fit the description of the "shallowest" to a T.
Despite the severity of the problems, I believe that we are positioned to weather a year long recession and recovery and put world finances back on a sound footing. In choosing Barack Obama as president, the American people have acted very wisely, as he has the both the intellectual and personal gifts to be equal to the task.
Contrary to the negative spin about Obama, he also has the experience to manage the process as his campaign clearly illustrates. The problems are real, but the world can deal with them. We will emerge much stronger at the end of 2009 than we are today.
The baby boomer's parents told them to save money as if they were still living in the Great Depression but they invented rock n' roll instead.
When the wealthy told them to fear communism and drafted them into an army of grunts they said, "communism is no threat" and screamed "Hell no, we won't go." (It was chanted with the same cadences as a football cheer.)
During the fifties, the baby boomers watched an idealized version of the Greatest Generation on their black and white television sets: Bette Davis, Clark Gable, Jimmy Stewart, Joan Crawford, James Cagney .....
But they knew it was mostly bullshit manufactured by the Hollywood dream factory to make the Great Depression easier on their parents, and they set about creating the modern film industry instead.
When the sixties were over and idealism was pronounced dead, the Shallowest Generation created the computer revolution, the biotech industry and the internet.
"And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist. And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her. And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheaded him in the prison, and brought his head in a charger, and gave it to the damsel: and the damsel gave it to her mother. And when his disciples heard of it, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb."
Quinn is obsessed with the Black Swan event he sees on the horizon. Things change Jimbo. The whole world isn't a personal injury trial.
His generation has no accomplishments yet, so it is a diversion to stand in judgement rather than actually do something.
There were 3 wars {maybe more} as the boomers created families , careers and saved in their largest savings their homes
The economy was run constantly on "guns AND butter " economics.
Hey Barney, wipe that joy juice off your chin and tell us what you did with our home equity, now that we played by the rules for 35 years and put people like James Quinn through college.
By your own definition you were the generation that never wanted to grow up. We still see that message as the basis of advertising aimed at your generation.
Now you act startled and shocked when someone Gen X like myself points out that you are the generation that never grew up. Never learned to take responsibility.
I have often compared the boomer generation to a swarm of locusts. You enter an area, consume everything of value, leave the dregs for the rest of us and then move on to the next target.
If one looks it is easy to see the patterns in society, as the boomer generation has shaped every aspect of the environment we live in, to suit their own short term needs, with complete disregard for the past or the future.
You can even see it in the vehicles they drive.
Look at the average age of boomers, and the size of the vehicles marketed to the public. Ever notice that the grand SUV craze, and cheap oil just happened to coincide with boomers having teenage kids?
Oh but wait! Most boomers just got their kids out of the house. Voila. Now its bye bye to the SUV craze, in comes economical small vehicles again....
"Oh but wait! Most boomers just got their kids out of the house. "
And if the kids are anything like you, I'm sure they are joyously dancing a jig for their new found freedom!
jegan ;-)
I cannot see the author has something to say, but just mocking a few statements form the original article.
I'm sorry, but only an idiot will deny that reckless consumerism led America to current crisis, and, naturally, not only baby boomers are blamed for this.
Only idiot will deny that baby boomers rule America now, and that later generations will pay for their stupidity and arrogance.
Read what the author says:
"That is capitalism: use someone else’s money, not your own, especially when you have your own."
Wow, this is a huge discovery in economic science! :):)
I thought before that capitalism is something different.
BTW, by saying "someone else's money" the author means, I guess, taxpayer's money?
Having said that, I would like to hear your rebuttal to that now that you got you reading comprehension staightened out.
I agree with all of you ! Good rebuttal Dennis ! Ive worked + paid into SS since I was 11 years old . Worked + pain my way thru college ! I drove my last car , a honda , for 12 1/2 years ! I have no C card debt , no car debt , very small mortgage . I could have really used the money I paid into SS all the working years as I had severe health problems . I am sure glad it is there for me now . The 20-30 year olds who c/o re SS , get real ! The years fly by ! One problem I have with baby boomers is they were horrible parents , Had the worst spoiled rotten shallow kids with few , if any ethics , including work ethic . God help us all ! They are truly a boring generation , X + Y
A corollary to the American dream is that each generation strives to make their children's lives better than their own. Each American generation has SO FAR been successful at fulfilling this goal. However, there's been an unintended side-effect from achieving this goal; and that is each successive generation feels ENTITLED to everything that their parents have provided to them. I'm a Gen-Xer, and I have no question that my life has been more comfortable than that of my Baby Boomer parents, just as their lives were more comfortable than that of their Greatest Generation parents.
Where we've perhaps gone wrong is the Baby Boomer idea (which was readily accepted by Gen-Xers and beyond) that the old rules somehow don't apply. While this way of thinking produced some great works in social equality, it has rained disaster in other areas of our economy. During the Dot Com boom, we saw clearly irrational market behavior and listened as the powers that be (mainly Boomers, but also some from the other generations as well) call this the 'new economy' where the 'old economy' rules no longer applied. Wealth could be created from nothing instanteously. Then, we were told/shown that one could buy a homes that we clearly couldn't afford but that they would pay for themselves as their values kept appreciating at exponentially growing rates. On top of it, we have a government that backs up these notions as it borrows money against our future income streams (Social Security) to pay for its obligations that none of us are willing to pay for today. It all makes it far too easy for Boomers, Gen-Xers and beyond to believe that the old rules no longer apply and that we shouldn't have to wait for the good things in life.
Well, that notion is patently wrong and we're all complicit to varying degrees. Likewise, it's up to all of us to end it now. If we don't, we risk watching idly on the sidelines as our economy deteriorates into something that none of us wish to leave to our successors as a legacy. There are many ways to get from here to there, but key among them are: 1) a higher personal savings rate (don't rely on the gov't to save for you), 2) lower gov't spending and 3) better aligned pay incentives for real performance (too many people make too much money based on performance goals which they do not directly influence and results in a transfer of inefficient wealth transfer in our society).
I see that this "Shallowest Generation" discussion is moving towards a Boomer vs. GenX skirmish. Generation types (see my previous post on this from Nov. 1) truly repeat and some conflicts among the four generation types are as old as the hills. One thing that I didn't describe in the previous posting is that when an older generation is still somewhat vigorous, say mid-50's to very early 70's, areas that the old generation excelled at will tend to be avoided by the following generations of the other 3 types. In the recent generations you can easily see examples of all this. The G.I. generation was followed by the Silents then the Boomers then GenX. The new G.I. replacements (Hero type) are the new Millennial generation, and since they're very young and of the same Hero generation type, they don't figure into this. Picking some obvious quick examples:
The G.I. generation was noted for it's civic works, infrastructure (Dam building, Interstate Highways and big effort technology like Nasa), new lasting political orders (Nato, UN) and in general for making real use of a lot of science in real life. Interestingly they started doing this a little early because the proceeding Hero generation was absent. the Civil War effort didn't let those Heros develop. Their roll was to restore a positive order by overcoming the challenges of the Crisis of the Great Depression and WWII. Easy to name these guys, all the Presidents from JFK on until George Bush the first. Note because so many G.I. presidents were chosen, no Silent became president and I think McCain is likely the last candidate we'll see from the Silents.
Now comes the Silents (Artist type), they are awed by the G.I. hero's they observed as kids and young adults. They don't create civic works, but rather decide to remedy social ills and generally excel in paying attention to some of the weak spots in society (Civil RIghts, Disabled Rights, lots of fairness initiatives). They are true to type like their predecessors trying to finding compromise and a reasonable common ground, always tweaking the knobs but bad problems aren't generally solved, often just put off. Many of you might make the connection to the previous generations of this type, the Progressives of Teddy Rosevelt, Wilson and the Compromise generation of Jackson, Clay and Webster. They make great statesman and actors, having the Zelig-like ability to adopt different personas for a time (Woody Allen, MLK, Ram Dass). Timothy Leary I thought was also of this generation, but he's a G.I., truly this was a man ahead of his time.
Then, at least in this discussion comes the dreaded Boomers (Boo, Hiss). This is an example of a Prophet generation type. They grew up in the golden glow of a successful Crisis Conclusion. They were allowed to freely develop. Boomer's mostly G.I. parents in the earlier part of the generation were devoted to socializing with other G.I. comrades (G.I. and other Hero types are famous for devotion to their peers). The parents didn't worry about the safety of these wild kid because they assumed all functioning G.I. adults would do their duty and protect all youngsters as if they were their own. The Boomers aren't Civic, they don't excel in the arts especially in writing. Some make very good movies that break with tradition. Boomers remixed older music styles into something new, which spread like wild fire and still smolders today with flare-ups on occasion - 1960's Rock Music, British Invasion etc. Note: the Brits at this point are closely synched with us Yanks likewise with Kiwis, Canucks and Aussies.
All these special traits of Boomers are largely because of an overwhelming gift: an innate desire to rebel, tearing down the old order to make room for many glorious new (but quarter-baked) hypothetical ways of living. If you never had the chance to get a mid-to-old Boomer to describe all the different alternatives of living that were tried starting after JFK was assassinated until Ronald Regan became president, I recommend you do so - "what a strange trip it's been" doesn't begin to describe it. I like to say that Heros (G.I). like to make order out of desperation, the Artists (Silent) want to work unobtrusively within the system, the Nomad (GenX) folk want to learn the system better than anyone and then game it to win their goals by being very pragmatic. Boomers just decide to change the rules randomly until they come close to working the way they want or until they get distracted and chase after some other rainbow.
Why did they (and other Prophets) tear down the order the G.I. generation (and other Heros created)? I think the answer comes mostly from not so much the generations that proceeded them, but rather from the times Boomer's spent their first 20 years in.. for the Boomers, the Saeculum High of 1946-1964. This nurturing period was for most, especially children and youth, extremely optimistic - even nuclear war fears weren't scary enough to sink into the young Boomers - though I think it came back to haunt them later in life. I think this because the willingness to tear down and replace key social systems likely comes from not fearing the consequences and the easiest way to explain that is to note that Boomers hadn't experienced very much yet to fear. That would come in 1968 with Tet in Vietnam , Dems in Chicago, Assassinations and riots all over and Nixon/Kissinger in Washington.
Let me finish with GenX. I personally like many things about the Nomad generations. They always have it rough. They make great writers (Hemingway, Twain, Carroll) and military leaders from early Pirates (all the way back to Drake), George Washington, U.S. Grant and other Civil War Leaders (William Techumsa Sherman). Contrast those with Lincoln, Davis and Robert E. Lee, all Prophets - for those few who are still with me...
If you take Sherman and Grant as Nomads and Lee and Lincoln as Prophets and extrapolate a little you can see in contrast a lot of the differences between the two generation instances and gen types. The Nomads are gritty, practical and direct. They manage things and get the job done. Often I think they don't necessarily enjoy their role, but they do it anyway. The name for the Civil War Nomad instance is Gilded - or The "Bloody Shirt" Gilded". These Nomads took most of burden that should have been split between them and the following Hero generation, but the Civil War came too soon and a Hero generation didn't develop. Contrast this to the Spiritual, dreamy but equally determined Prophet Civil war leaders - both gen types were as intense as mankind can get.
Strauss and Howe have a thought in their books where they ask you to imagine Lincoln and Davis with their cabinets and military leaders. Then imagine them with nuclear weapons. Is it reasonable to hope such men wouldn't have used their nukes?
My last words for GenX is that life is tough for you in many ways, starting from not getting a lot of good attention as kids. But earlier versions of your gen type have suffered much more and still had great importance in history and somehow managed to live good lives. An example that I think about often is the Nomad Cavalier generation born 1618-47. These people were commonly brought to America from England as kidnapped indentured servants. Many didn't survive the ordeal. The legal penalty for doing this in England was a trifling fine. Yet when the great 1675-1704 Crisis hit, they had become the hands on leaders of the Colonies - sure their Prophet elders still didn't like them, preferring the nicer Glorious Hero's that came after. In fact the majority of the Salem witches were Nomads! But society knew when things got dicey, Nomads were the best practical tactical leaders. If this crisis gets desperate, I expect a similar GenX to Boomer relationship, hopefully without the heresy trials!
Like the other generations, since the Prophet generations grab the spiritual realm so tightly, Nomads avoid spiritual things and especially using spiritual techniques in day to day life. Nomad generations seem to have a large likelihood of not being happy in old age. This has to do with their alignment with the Saeculum. Old age for Nomads (except again in the Civil War) comes after the crisis and they seem to get screwed, mostly not getting the entitlements or accolades that the following Hero's get (again here the Civil War is an exception). So GenX, do what you do best: watch your back, and try to help watch other Nomad's backs, because the Prophets will be getting too old to help and the Heros will be mostly paying attention to other Heros and their Civic efforts.
But the thing to take from all this is each generation and generation type is needed. Together they make a bigger, more resilient package than if only one type existed. It's yet another example of a dynamic system having wonderful advantages over a flat static approach. Americans are lucky in the sense that our freedoms make our generational patterns stronger than those in most other parts of the world where traditional roles resist the sequence of 4 changes that we see every 80 years or so.
Please borrow or buy a copy of The Fourth Turning and give it a good read if you're interested in all this. If you like to study history it gives the reader a wonderful framework to grok at least the last five hundred years of American and British history.
If you'd like a free copy of my Generation Chart of Strauss and Howe's ideas, send me an e-mail to djluedtke@gmail.com and I'll send you a big PDF image that shows the relationships. Use a good PDF viewer program to view it.
With regard to blame, I follow the Valdees/ Cole Principle, no matter what happens, the Captain is responsible for the ship. ( even if he is asleep)
With regard to immigration issues, I believe the biggest immigration problem we have is the immigration department itself. Illegal immigrants do contribute to the economy as consumers as they buy food, clothing, autos,...these inputs are proudly quoted in gross sales figures ( immigrants send only a small percentage of money home.) The Immigration Department is not able to respond in a reasonable amount of time to any application, cannot give precise information or updates, and dealing with them creates a sense of hopelessness and despair. If a person is under such economic or social pressure that they would consider coming to another country to live, it is unlikely they have the time to wait as much as several years for the Immigration Department to come to consciousness. Our immigration system does encourage illegal entry when it is unresponsive. Lastly, it is difficult to find Americans who will work as hard or long as immigrants.
The USSR went broke after a long war in Afganistan, we do not appear to be willing or able to accurately assess the damage to our economy that an endless war produces. I wonder, did George Orwell predict the future or provide a blueprint for it?
Thanx for the thoughts,.....
I grew up in the south,you worked for a pair of shoes,you paid cash,you picked cotton,saved,you hunted for meat in your diet with a sling shot,until the money you saved had grown enough to pay cash for a weapon.I was 7 years old then!My Dad supported 9 of us on 25 cents a day. All of us worked. We moved to the city when I was 11,only to be trucked back to the fields for Spring & Fall Break from school.Save my money.We went to Church,gave what could,and knew we would have to do good in school to better our chance to make a life without the struggles that we grew up with.It worked out well for all of us. We all had our ups & downs,but knew that we had the knowlage of Survial instilled into us by Loving Patents,that went without to see that we could go to school. My Dad had no schooling,but he knew money,He Collected & traded Coins, & I Picked it up to his delight. Today Gold is Money,but many think other wise,So is Silver. It wont be long when you can buy the Dow with a oz of Gold,so I say FDR,JP Morgan,Goldmans,Rocker... & the rest of illumina that has & still are, Stealing the Worlds Wealth, while Taking this Nation to the Cleaners from within,like the post said, just watch 3 hours of C-Span & you will want to puck at the worthless Crap that we call Progress. If you want to Clean this Nation of the Varments,1st, Crush the Federal Reserve,all of those that are a part of it world wide,Restore the Bill of Rights & our Constitution that this Nation was Founded on & Stop the USURY by Banksters & return to Sound Money,Set By Congress & Coined By our Treasuary,Untill that is Completed,We will Stay in this Timeless Bubble of DEBT!
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To the guy (or girl) who doubts the Social Security numbers, go back and read how SS works (and I am not counting my Medicare contributions which I do fully expect to recoup). As I think Buffet or someone of that net worth says, most of you pay the same as I do in SS taxes. You did not have to be "highly compensated" over the last 45 years to have that kind of money "deposited in your account." You just have to be middle class depending on how that's defined.
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To elcopone, if that was Quinn's point, he never said it anywhere in multi-thousands of words. He said:
1. ) "Our claim to fame is living way beyond our means for the last three decades, to the point where we have virtually bankrupted our capitalist system."
and
2.) "Of course, not all Baby Boomers are shallow, greedy, and corrupt. Mostly Boomers with power and wealth fall into this category."
He provides no proof for either statement, which is the reason I wrote the rebuttal over on this part of the site (I actually write about technology investments and related issues).
But to answer your question despite your insult, personally I believe volunteering in non-partisan local government and non-government charitable organizations is a means. That was my choice for 30 years but I don't contend that it is the only means to contribute back to society. Military service, teaching K-12, and social work are careers in this area. Coaching kids sports, elderly services, and working with the disabled are great volunteering opportunities.
Those who attack the Baby Boomers might want to find out how are age bracket does in these areas.
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To those of you who have been genuinely disturbed by and thoughtlfully replied to the original article's premise that the Baby Boomer generation is responsible for the financial crisis, note that the orginal author is missing in action. My contention is that there is no data in his multi-thousand-word article that connects demographics with the broad economics discussed here or that relates to the orginal author's specific claim (that greedy baby boomers, not all baby boomers mind you, did such and such).
I pointed out how two of his statistics are demonstrably wrong (or at least misleading)--(
1) where the "greatest generation" got its "wealth" and
(2) the candard about savings rates.
I'm still waiting for any other proofpoints linking generations to all the ills of society; I doubt if they exist at all but they definitely were not in the original article.
----------------
To the ad-hominem attackers, I would like to see SA management delete all such attacks as being below the purpose of this web site but the Internet being what it is, SA would probably go broke trying to do it.
But to the lowlife JCQ, as the "More by Dennis Byron" below indicates I write for a living on the Internet so I'm used to profanity and people who can't think through what they are writing calling me "idiot" or making some insane connection to Todd Palin. But attacking my children is a new low in incoherent Internet idiocy. Your comment is totally ad-hominem and should be reported as abuse.
Dennis
Pretty touchy for someone who used the words: rant, blabbers, and screed in his attempt to get someone to read one of his articles. How does it feel to leech off of me to get someone to read your blather? I hope you don't have to rely on your ability to write in order to make a living. Let us know what kind of car you drive? How many miles? Leased, bought, or did you remortgage your house for a Mercedes? Why weren't you able to save enough to put your kids through college? I have been saving since my kids were born. I won't be borrowing to get them through college.
Wah Wah Wah. That's abuse. Classic boomer.
But now I understand. Unable to prove even one of your points about Baby Boomers, you insult others who call you out on your lack of logic.
Oh, and you should carpool if you're commuting 120 miles a day--save the planet!
Dennis
On Nov 08 02:28 PM JGQ wrote:
> Hey Dennis
>
> Pretty touchy for someone who used the words: rant, blabbers, and
> screed in his attempt to get someone to read one of his articles.
> How does it feel to leech off of me to get someone to read your blather?
> I hope you don't have to rely on your ability to write in order to
> make a living. Let us know what kind of car you drive? How many miles?
> Leased, bought, or did you remortgage your house for a Mercedes?
> Why weren't you able to save enough to put your kids through college?
> I have been saving since my kids were born. I won't be borrowing
> to get them through college.
>
> Wah Wah Wah. That's abuse. Classic boomer.
Do you lease your car or do you own it outright? Your non answer tells me everything I need to know. My assessment of why you have a problem with people driving to work is that you are a "consultant" that "works" from his home. I noticed from your bio that it seemed to cut off in 2006. Did you "retire"?
Hilarious, and well said !!!
research.stlouisfed.or...
google "personal savings rate 1982"
I, for one, am ashamed of the world created by my generation, replete with its SUVs, McMansions, conspicuous consumption and greed.
What caused the house of cards to collapse was high gas prices. As prices went up it forced other commodity prices up as well. Those prices in turn caused the folks with sub-prime loans to choose between feeding their families, or paying the mortgage. I don't blame them for choosing food.
Now we will watch the pendulum swing to far and all industries will get regulated too much. That will cause future heartaches and the deregulation cycle will start all over again.
The moral of the story we are living through is that a little regulation is a good thing and no oversight can bring the country to its knees.
It's not an individual but a societal shift so discussing your finances misses the point.
It's not just baby-boomers but all generations since.
You weren't saving money because you were raising your kids? I can understand that, but it is a legacy of low wages, high taxes, and obscene health care costs. I won't argue that illegal aliens funnel money out and get education and health care for free; but the boomers and others in Government have allowed it - that's the point.
Live for today, tax and spend, don't save, use leveraged debt, and there will always be a new car in the driveway every 3 years and food in the grocery store.
OOOPS!
That has been our official economic policy since the Keynsians took over. If you read Greenspan and Bernanke, they have written extensively on the need for inflation to punish savers and encourage lending. If the savings rate goes too high, they wrote of the need to increase inflation to punish savers. Negative savings rate? Mission accomplished, according to our economic masters!
Why save money if it will be devalued by inflation? Our government and the Fed reward speculation and punish the savers, thus most people's main savings is their home.
When you write a line like:
<i>In fact none of his data supports any aspect of his claims</i>
It should be supported with your own data; otherwise, you sound like just another hyperventilating moron spouting opinion.
You want to write an opinion piece? That's fine; but don't call it a rebuttal, call it an opinion. To read your piece, you would think this whole mess is due to Paulson and Corzine.
Then there is this beautiful Gem:
<i>Quinn takes a little side trip into how manufacturing was outsourced without explaining why and what the alternative would have meant economically.</i>...
And neither did you. Why don't write up a good piece on globalization and what all the benefits of it are? Before you do that, though, look up when the last time was that we ran a trade surplus, and see if you can infer the significance of that.
To blame any generation for a mess like this is like... during a drought, blaming sheep for eating too much of the good green grass in the preceding years.
Stop cursing me because I ate the good food that was put in front of me.
I have no remorse or guilt. None. Nor does my dog.
Nor will I whine if it's bread and water tomorrow. Nor will my dog.
In fact, I would expect to be called an idiot, had I not partaken.
The foolish co-partisan free-money-for-all policies that have gotten us into this mess were hardly under the control of, or even apparent to, 98% of the folks in the average working world (purely made up statistic, but probably close). Just like all current and future generations, most of us work a fair day, we get paid what seems like a fair wage, pay taxes, put some in an IRA, and we save/live on the rest. Some more prudently than others. This is, and will always be, generation independent.
Should I not trust the ground below me when it's holding me now?
This economic system has held me well for most of my life, but now I'm supposed to have somehow known that it was all a loan, and that my pay was too high, that I dined too well, that I drove too far, that I left the lights on in the kitchen too often. I defy any one of you to tell me what local or globally published or implied "measure of excess or guilt" I was supposed to consult, that indicated that my supposed "over-indulgence" was going to cause the end of the world as we know it.
and at what level it *should* have been at
or ... what it *should* be now?
silence from the audience. i thought as much.
The answer lies in the context we're living in at any given moment. There is no answer. But to blame a generation for this implies that there *is* an answer.
What generation do we blame for an earthquake? Why would this situation be any different?
Don't get me wrong, I've heard the arrogant greenies who think at each breath, that my personal expulsion of carbon-dioxide is contributing to global-warming, and thus "if only we could could get rid of all of those nasty consuming humans, the world would be a better place...". (I really think they believe this drivel.)
And I've read the myriad stories of CEO excess that litter our garbage media of the 21st century. I'm sure much of it is just as bad or worse than they indicate.
But of the most of us balanced folks who understand that life inherently implies consumption, and that waste always works against future consumption (life), our behaviors, both last year, now, and next year - were, are, and will be - rational. We'll continue to dynamically assess our situations, and within the bounds of our limited understanding, we will make a reasonable go at making the best of it, first for ourselves, and then for those around us.
And for this I won't apologize. Nor should you.
How many of us had any idea who Paulson, Greenspan, Roubini, Browne, Ruff, Bernanke, or any of the other policy makers/critics were (are?) before last month? Why would we have cared? We did our jobs, paid our taxes, and wanted to go home and teach our kids math, to play ball, and perhaps catch Leno on the tube before bed. Keeping the local and global financial gears working were what we paid all those taxes for, right?
It's the Harry Brownes (1970+s) and Roubinis (2000+s) who audit-ably saw that our ongoing policies were going to result in today's messes. Back then, I didn't know or care who Roubini was. Today I do. These are the folks worth listening to at this point, because they actually saw it coming, and know exactly why it happened - which is critical to any possible fix.
Instead, we continue to listen to current policy-makers who repeatedly ignored these fellow's past and current advice, and are still telling us to trust *them* - when everybody on this site knows full well that *they* were, and still are, the real cause of our status quo.
so what now?
And so it goes... most of us little people, are still dynamically assessing the situation. And we don't really trust *them* much anymore. And so we're pulling out what little we have left in our IRAs. And we're trying to figure where to put it so that they can't get any more of it. That is rational - perhaps short-sighted in the broader scheme - but rational. And we won't apologize for it.
I believe the world, our country, and our towns will all recover in time - regardless of the bruises we may be dealt in the present/near-future.
Until then, as a pragmatic person, the main recourse we will have to a major breakdown will probably be very local in the geographical sense, and it will probably all occur within the confines of our local communities in the cultural sense. Which is how it should be.
Volunteerism? Resource-Sharing, Skill-Trading? Barter?
As an investment, perhaps I should spend less time looking at the Dow/Gold prices and ask myself what do I have that is of any worth to my friends neighbors and community? How about if there is no electricity - who can I help, and what can I accept for that help to feed my family? "They" can never take that away, and it's much harder to tax...
Don't hunker down, but do look a little bit more closely at the community(s) in which we co-exist, and find ways to contribute - even if it doesn't get that bad. We're closer than we think, and we all have a lot more to offer than we know.
As far as blaming... very likely, none of the folks that you should blame for all of this are within reach anyway, so save your breath. If you happen to bump into any of them, don't hire them again, OK? For that you don't have to apologize. We'll understand.
--ikk
We (yourself) all know what we (ourselves) have done and how we conducted our own lives (family, finances &vices). Those of us who have worked hard, stayed sober, paid our bills, supported our charities/churches, raised our children and kept food on the table and a dry place to sleep. Not to mention how we spent our lives.. Know that we (ourselves) have done all that we could to support our family & Country. On the other hand....those that did NOT support family or Country may never realize their short comings! They are too consumed by their greed, vices and the rest of the sins of this world. Enough of that for now.
The Sheeples need to be calmed so there can be sustained growth. Am I the only one that sees that it is the Wall Street players that are getting rich from all of the panic? The longer the Sheeples are kept panicked the richer the players will be.
I know that God has given us a way that will bring a Cleaner Enviroment (at no aditional expense) and provide jobs for all thereby saving the world economy. Please be patient for awhile longer. The Carbon Revolution is here!