Let GM Fail 116 comments
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I expect this article will make me in the neighborhood of at least 300,000 new enemies. That’s how many employees GM has. However, the unfortunate thing about truth is that it is relentless and apathetic. Please don’t confuse the messenger with the cause.
The reason GM should be allowed to fail is because in its current state, its production overcapacity, if maintained by government money, can only churn out even more cars that nobody wants or can afford to buy. In other words, it would only prolong the inevitable.
The fact that its management team clung to the illusion of perpetual growth and refused to acknowledge the irrefutable business cycle demonstrates gross incompetence, the result of which should be annihilation. That’s what’s going to happen regardless of how much money is pumped into General Motors or the economy in general. It is the excess liquidity in the system that exacerbates the peaks and troughs of natural business cycles, and so pouring more and more into the system only confounds the economy’s natural ability to repair itself through an unfettered continuation of the cycle.
Bear in mind that all that GM represents is not going to disappear in a puff of smoke if they declare bankruptcy. The assets will merely be re-allocated to other automotive corporations, and the industry itself will become slightly more efficient, and contract as it needs to. Autoworkers who are skilled and reliable will have to add resourceful to their repertoire to stay viable in a contracting economy. There are just too many autoworkers and zippo demand for their product.
Since everybody’s had access to all the cheap liquidity for nearly a decade now, and has got two cars and a parking lot full of brand new recreational vehicles (if they haven’t yet been located by repo man), pumping capital into GM is like trying to continue filling up a bathtub with water after its already full. It only makes a big mess, the water is wasted, and the more you continue trying, the bigger the mess gets and the more the resource is wasted.
The situation we’re in should be a plain signal to the world’s leaders that over-capacity across all industries, fuelled by years of near-zero cost credit, is the result of excess liquidity. The economy, contrary to modern economic theory, simply cannot expand ad infinitum no matter how cheap money is. This only causes overproduction of resources, overproduction of products, and volatility in the business cycle.
On the off chance that isn’t clear enough, hear it is again:
Perpetual economic growth is impossible.
I think this is the fundamental flaw in all of our G8 leadership’s assumptions. If we were to allow the economy to undulate in terms of growth and contraction in a uniform wave pattern, much as nearly all natural systems in biology and physics do, then our existence perhaps becomes sustainable.
The current economic policies cause artificially high concentrations of demand because the net result of excess speculation on the long side in any market creates the illusion of physical demand, which in turn promotes productivity. We end up consuming our finite natural resources prematurely, and the truly destructive effect will be felt more acutely as generations progress. Imagine your grandson or granddaughter trying to buy real estate or gas or gold after decades of increasing real demand (population expansion) and diminishing production of everything due to shortage of raw materials. Imagine the prices.
Trying to force continuous and perpetual economic growth through credit and monetary expansion is just plain suicidal, in the long term. It aggravates peaks and troughs into angry jagged lines that inflate the casualties both human and economic obscenely. The revision in economic policy required to facilitate that reality does not, at this time, appear to be forthcoming. At least, not while George Bush is still flapping his gums and swaggering around the podium playing president.
His address to the G20 meetings makes it clear that he is still preoccupied with asserting U.S. unilateralism when it comes to joint foreign policy decisions. I don’t know what the G20 leaders were hoping for. This meeting should not have happened until Obama was in the driver’s seat. I’m sure they all realize that now. It's clear that Bush seeks to establish credit for initiating the recovery that also is not yet forthcoming.
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This article has 116 comments:
Start out with that comment - and it makes you a Moron. Pure and simple. GM outsells all comers in North America. Cars that Americans are buying. It's funny how we can't stereotype people any longer - as it's been proven that - for instance - calling all poor people stupid isn't all that truthful. Taking out your wide tipped marker and painting all of GM's vehicles as being 'cars nobody wants to buy' shows the same sort of stereotyping ,and a lot of ignorance. Get over yourself, and stop attempting to pass off your opinion as fact. Opinions are most often not fact. Especially in the case of yours'.
There are plenty of Americans that want to buy a GMC Acadia. There a tons of them that want to buy a Chevy Malibu. Quite a few want a Cadillac CTS. The Buick Enclave is selling very well, under 30 days of inventory even in these market conditions. Their pick-ups and Tahoes/Suburbans are the best of their breed. Look at the here and now, and not the 90's when trying to sum up GM's product offerings. The here and now is impressive.
GM will be ripped into little pieces and sold off to entrepreneurs who can and will run the smaller business more efficiently. In the next economic boom these businesses will themselves be swallowed up by the larger conglomerates and so on…
On Nov 17 04:04 PM dpro0102 wrote:
> "if maintained by government money, can only churn out even more
> cars that nobody wants or can afford to buy"
>
> Start out with that comment - and it makes you a Moron. Pure and
> simple. GM outsells all comers in North America. Cars that Americans
> are buying. It's funny how we can't stereotype people any longer
> - as it's been proven that - for instance - calling all poor people
> stupid isn't all that truthful. Taking out your wide tipped marker
> and painting all of GM's vehicles as being 'cars nobody wants to
> buy' shows the same sort of stereotyping ,and a lot of ignorance.
> Get over yourself, and stop attempting to pass off your opinion as
> fact. Opinions are most often not fact. Especially in the case of
> yours'.
>
> There are plenty of Americans that want to buy a GMC Acadia. There
> a tons of them that want to buy a Chevy Malibu. Quite a few want
> a Cadillac CTS. The Buick Enclave is selling very well, under 30
> days of inventory even in these market conditions. Their pick-ups
> and Tahoes/Suburbans are the best of their breed. Look at the here
> and now, and not the 90's when trying to sum up GM's product offerings.
> The here and now is impressive.
"...cars that nobody wants or can afford to buy"
GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
S0 would you say Toyota is also building cars that nobody wants to or can afford to buy?
And your attitude about a parking lot full of recreational vehicles REEKS of steroetype. You conveniently leave out the thousands of employees like me whose recreation is playing with my kids on the front lawn. ONE INCOME family here. I drive a van. No boat. No sports car. No motorcyle. No ATV. No snowmobile. No cottage. ANd I live in a 1600 sq ft house with a small yard in Warren Michigan.
Who the Hell gave you space to spew your LIES?
Were GM to continue it's current output until 20JAN09 it will result in 1.2million unsold vehicles. According to another author on this site. Lets use that figure.
One solution might be the federal gov't purchase the excess vehicles as part of its annual ongoing fleet purchases with several conditions.
First is to fire the management. Fire the Board. No golden parachutes. Gone the moment the documents are signed. No limo ride home.
Second, offer all 1st tier UAW members one time only buy outs based on seniority.
Third, stop all assembly of H2, pick-ups more than 1 ton and Escalade. All remaining SUV vehicles and pick-ups MUST be flex fuel or hybrid. Period.
Consolidate remaining "brands". Keep Cadillac and Chevy. Lose Pontiac and maybe Olds.
Re-tool closed factories to make additional rolling stock for commuter transportation. Subway cars, commuter rail cars and buses. These will be needed badly when gas goes higher than it recently was.
Re-tool other closed factories to assemble wind towers, CNG systems for heavy trucks and other fuel saving technologies as the Pickens Plan suggests.
As long as America manufactures nothing more than bogus financial instruments it will never be able to regain even a part of its former glory and will go the way of every two bit empire before it. Period.
On Nov 17 04:31 PM longgee wrote:
> James West, you are damn right and that's what I want to say. I can
> say that GM/FORD cars is only can be sold in U.S but not the other
> part of the world. Because of it's high labor cost compare to Japan
> car maker ($78/hour VS 44/hour). The only reason why they still can
> make car is the protection policy of the U.S. government for import
> car.
I'll post this a thousand times if I have to!
GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
dpro0102, it sounds like you have or had some related employment with a US automaker or a supplier. That's where you show your bias. I do not and have not worked for any automaker. There are some solid GM products out there, but the few of them cannot make up for the bulk of the other products few care to buy. Why don't you speak of Hummer quality and reliability or lack of it, to be fair?
Also, I used to buy Ford products and now own a Honda product. Why? Ford in the past seemed to have better reliability than Honda long ago, but Honda has since eclipsed Ford in quality and reliability, in general. The consumer is voting for what they want with their pocketbook. Let's respect that.
re Dan S1 :
I'll respect that IN GENERAL as you feel "IN GENERAL" trumps direct facts.
GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
Powers rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
What you are doing is repeating rumors without doing any research to find out the real cause of GM's trouble. No company can survive with that kind of labor cost differential.
3 million jobs lost? Better than loaning them a bridge to get to 2010?
I personally can't provide any concrete data to support any number. However, I am a direct GM employee, and I can reassure you that the salary I receive spends an all-too-brief period of time in my hands, before it is reinvested into the local, state, and federal economy. Much of it goes into paying a mortgage. A large portion goes into local department stores, schools, restaurants, theaters, charities and banks.
I have no idea how many jobs that money actually supports, but I have a feeling that when multiplied by the number of people who are currently employed by GM, it adds up to a number that is difficult for most to comprehend.
So, yes you have made enemies of 300,000 people. But you have also made enemies of a much, much larger number. It is sad though, that many of them do not realize it yet, and many of them might indeed be naive enough to buy your "Let GM fail" philosophy.
So bottom line...unions have outlived their usefullness in this sector of manufacturing and have created this bubble that has burst. Would non-union auto plants be in the same pickle, all things (price of gas,, healthcare, etc.) being equal?
Now market conditions take a drastic turn and you want to allow GM to fail, when a lot of pain and suffering can be avoided with a simple bridge loan?
I say loan them the money, it's the least this country can do for what these companies have done for us over the years.
By voting to close GM, you vote against your investment in your own community and to allow foriegn interests to entrench deeper in your back yards. I agree that GM needs to redo their business plan because there are lots of mixed signals and this is why congress is taking their time to sort all this out. But to destroy any community in this country as a lesson to unions and poor management would be like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I don't look at this so much a bailout, but as a loan to help out a nieghbor who's fallen to an unfreindly economy. Hell, we're pumping 10 billion into Iraq every month. Just helping a nieghbor out right? Let's help our own with 2 just months of Iraq compensation.
But demand a business plan, that emphasizes that our communities come before retention bonuses, golden parachutes, foriegn investment and global aspirations. Demand union accountability - stem absenteeism, tighten work restrictions, better review family medical leave abuse, throw out appointed position slackers and eliminate job entitlement attitudes.
In turn we should expect work coming back to our communities, which should energize our economy, which hopefully will return the big three to profitability, and in a year or two create a robust return for the taxpayer.
If we don't start to come together soon, we will surely fall apart.
We just have to put politics aside and demand accountability. Please
save the U.S.A.. Don't ask for it, Don't argue about it. Demand it!
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EXACTLY! We as a country are throwing good money after bad by investing in things we don't need - like a fleet of a million SUV's that can only be sold at a loss. If we're going to nationalize an industry (a horrible situation), it should be mobilized to produce something we need, like renewable energy, mass transit, health care, national security, technology, or education. It better be SOMETHING that actually pays off in the future or we are doomed as an empire.
Malinvestment is a pattern now. Look at the ROI on the bank bailouts/handouts. Look at the Iraq war. China on the other hand has enacted a massive stimulus plan that will leave them with world-class infrastructure, ports, and universities when it's all said and done. We, on the other hand, will have an oversupply of rapidly depreciating gas-guzzling vehicles for our trouble. Perhaps the govt. will find some place to park them out in the weather so they can rust away while we keep those assembly lines running, sort of, on taxpayer money.
And how much profit was turned on those sales? Oops.
This deal with the bailout helping the auto dealers? My gut says let them go under. It sounds terrible to say as so many will lose jobs but we have to refrain from moving towards socialism. If the government steps in we then are edging more into that pit and ultimately the point of no return.
Where do we draw the line? What companies does the government bail out and which does it allow to fall? The answer should be none and all. The United States has built its economy on credit and now as credit has all but dried up, we are faced with many industries not having any business at all. Many companies are looking at losses that are staggering and will not recover from this. I think it is just time to accept the end of the gravy train, it has gone off the tracks, and the derailment will leave many casualties but the end result will be reorganization after a certain amount of discomfort and strife. We are at war in a way with our own country and its foundational ideas. We have lost that war. All countries go through restructuring, we must also again, It is inevitable. A bailout will only stop the bleeding, it won't heal the mortal wound opened by a gunshot called bad mortgages.
I say if a company cannot remain solvent, it must go under in the name of captitalism and all the United States of America stands for. We must not sway from our core principles of free enterprise and captialism.
Sorry for typos, I am rushing around right now.
BL
Is my factual statement of GM's recent and good product story a fly in your opinions' ointment? How about some facts in response to mine?
I agree that the Hummer brand has quality lagging the industry average. I would also point out that the quality gap used to be 100's of problems per hundred vehicles. Now your talking a about 80 problems per hundred being stellar, and 150 problems being 'deplorable', 120 problems being the average. Not really a huge disparity. One of GM's problems was size - which is admittedly shrinking. As Toyota is growing - however - their quality reputation contunues to outshine their quality reality. Wonder how long it'll take factual reality to supplant public perception - but given our general Media frenzy regarding the uber-horrible American manufacturers - my guess is it may take longer than GM or Ford has.....
My favorite argument from those that purchase Japanese vehicles is the investment angle - and the re-sale value.
To them I can only ask one question - if your Honda is worth $1000 more than my Chevrolet after 3 years of ownership - how does that off-set the tens of thousands of dollars of lost equity in your pro
On Nov 17 04:46 PM Dan S1 wrote:
> James West is simply telling the truth in general about GM and the
> truth hurts. I applaud him in being brave enough to tell the truth.
>
>
> dpro0102, it sounds like you have or had some related employment
> with a US automaker or a supplier. That's where you show your bias.
> I do not and have not worked for any automaker. There are some solid
> GM products out there, but the few of them cannot make up for the
> bulk of the other products few care to buy. Why don't you speak of
> Hummer quality and reliability or lack of it, to be fair?
>
> Also, I used to buy Ford products and now own a Honda product. Why?
> Ford in the past seemed to have better reliability than Honda long
> ago, but Honda has since eclipsed Ford in quality and reliability,
> in general. The consumer is voting for what they want with their
> pocketbook. Let's respect that.
Also, I don't place much confidence in car magazine journalists who take a brand new car, drive it 150 miles, and declare it to be as good quality as another brand. Drive it 150,000 miles and tell me what you think. Quality means long-term durability and low-cost, reliable operation. Judging by resale values, big 3 cars don't tend to last that long before they have major problems. If you disagree with that, perhaps you can explain why a used-car economy comprised of tens of millions of people has priced these supposedly wonderful cars wrong and how that gap has persisted for decades. Are consumers just overlooking these bargains?
Reality seems to conflict with the marketing slogans coming out of Detroit, and the excuses are becoming more and more convoluted.
On Nov 17 04:45 PM bosun.j wrote:
> Perhaps looking at this as other than an exercise in comparative
> economic theorems might be in order.
>
> Were GM to continue it's current output until 20JAN09 it will result
> in 1.2million unsold vehicles. According to another author on this
> site. Lets use that figure.
>
> One solution might be the federal gov't purchase the excess vehicles
> as part of its annual ongoing fleet purchases with several conditions.
>
>
> First is to fire the management. Fire the Board. No golden parachutes.
> Gone the moment the documents are signed. No limo ride home.
>
> Second, offer all 1st tier UAW members one time only buy outs based
> on seniority.
>
> Third, stop all assembly of H2, pick-ups more than 1 ton and Escalade.
> All remaining SUV vehicles and pick-ups MUST be flex fuel or hybrid.
> Period.
>
> Consolidate remaining "brands". Keep Cadillac and Chevy. Lose Pontiac
> and maybe Olds.
>
> Re-tool closed factories to make additional rolling stock for commuter
> transportation. Subway cars, commuter rail cars and buses. These
> will be needed badly when gas goes higher than it recently was.
>
>
> Re-tool other closed factories to assemble wind towers, CNG systems
> for heavy trucks and other fuel saving technologies as the Pickens
> Plan suggests.
>
> As long as America manufactures nothing more than bogus financial
> instruments it will never be able to regain even a part of its former
> glory and will go the way of every two bit empire before it. Period.
>
>
On Nov 17 05:27 PM Brightlite wrote:
> I am not a technical person in the sense that I don't follow all
> the political debates that are unfolding, and I only read my local
> paper, not the Wall Street Journal. I am a teacher, in high school,
> physics and chemistry so I am intelligent and I use alot of critical
> thinking every day.
> This deal with the bailout helping the auto dealers? My gut says
> let them go under. It sounds terrible to say as so many will lose
> jobs but we have to refrain from moving towards socialism. If the
> government steps in we then are edging more into that pit and ultimately
> the point of no return.
> Where do we draw the line? What companies does the government bail
> out and which does it allow to fall? The answer should be none and
> all. The United States has built its economy on credit and now as
> credit has all but dried up, we are faced with many industries not
> having any business at all. Many companies are looking at losses
> that are staggering and will not recover from this. I think it is
> just time to accept the end of the gravy train, it has gone off the
> tracks, and the derailment will leave many casualties but the end
> result will be reorganization after a certain amount of discomfort
> and strife. We are at war in a way with our own country and its
> foundational ideas. We have lost that war. All countries go through
> restructuring, we must also again, It is inevitable. A bailout will
> only stop the bleeding, it won't heal the mortal wound opened by
> a gunshot called bad mortgages.
> I say if a company cannot remain solvent, it must go under in the
> name of captitalism and all the United States of America stands for.
> We must not sway from our core principles of free enterprise and
> captialism.
> Sorry for typos, I am rushing around right now.
> BL
I think one thing needs to be made clear. I love GM. I think the Big 3 have had a lot of problems, but they have largely cleared up their quality problems, though very few people give them that credit. Even Toyota and Honda are going to sell less cars, because this problem is an economic one, not just a company specific one. We have too much capacity in the entire automotive industry, period. All the automakers will feel it. If any of them need to go bankrupt to restructure their debt and union contracts, so be it. We all know each of these companies will survive, even if they go bankrupt... sometimes bankruptcy is needed to perform a dramatic restructuring and revitalization of a company - merely giving any company money so it can continue "as is" is a vital error I hope we don't make - layoffs will occur and need to or none of the automakers will be making any money - too much industry wide capacity, period.
I buy American, because I like the quality and the price - and the style and choices they offer. There are some great Japanese cars as well. I just prefer American (I'm not even American, for the record).
Thats why we gotta get rid of the SUVs. Simple really.
On Nov 17 05:37 PM codypc wrote:
> why would they cut the bigger vehicles thats were they make more
> money. Toyota makes a lot of its money from it's suvs, etc. GM axed
> olds around 2004. GM's biggest problem is the false belief out there
> that japanese cars are somehow better than GM. The 90's are over
> and gone with them is the cheap junk made by GM. They vehicles made
> by GM today are the best in the world in most classes (cost, efficiency,
> durability, longetivity, etc.).
>
>
> On Nov 17 04:45 PM bosun.j wrote:
On Nov 17 05:40 PM tomwilly wrote:
> Reliability for domestics is as good or better than the asian product
> regardless of manufacturing site, highest recalled 07 vehical line
> was Toyota, their legendary reliability is just that, legendary....
> Some one metioned only americans will purchase american car company
> products, Hmm let me see, number one import in china is buick, look
> at the to 10 selling cars in europe, ahhh no asian stuff on that
> list, but wow! fords and GM's, clearly the US manufacturers have
> their issues, they're called unions, or bloodsuckers for short. They
> have great engineering but the US population has been brainwashed
> by effective marketing that the asian makers are better, ya, their
> better at closing their markets to our products and dumping thiers
> here. Kill the unions, open the asian markets, and watch GM an Ford
> kick some butt!! P.S. it's unfortunate that us idiot americans can't
> seem to get off the gas guzzlers, GM and Ford build product based
> on demand, we like pickups and SUV's till gas price goes up and then
> we all bitch, Asians build for their home market, lil' tiny cars
> and they just fill the void when we fat ass americans get pissed
> cause gas hits 4 bucks a gallon, and the domestics make a great target
> when we want to whine about all those SUV's..... GROW UP!!!
On Nov 17 05:46 PM bosun.j wrote:
> Buick in China is made in China. Chinese workers.
It's a very simple formula, actually
1) GM Fails
2) Trade deficit increases
3) Increased direct foreign investment capital makes up the difference
4) #3 takes the form of acquisitions of US-listed companies
5) Value of equity of purchased compnies goes up
6) They make money
#1-#5 certainly aren't in the long-term interests of the USA, but I don't think that troubles them...
Dead and buried.
On Nov 17 05:40 PM Robert Nabloid wrote:
> I just hope all the companies, and specifically the Big 3, take this
> time to restructure and come up with an innovative and dramatic strategy
> to push the technology envolope and innovate. We need to push to
> the electric car - If Tesla, a brand new company, can build the Tesla
> Roadster to go 244 miles per charge and be sporty, why can't one
> of the automakers make a regular 4 door family car that goes 250
> miles? They just aren't trying hard enough if a small startup company
> is beating them this severely.
Fleets typically sell off the vehicles at 30,000-50,000 miles so the used car markets are simply over supplied with domestics.
It's simply supply and demand.
On Nov 17 05:36 PM Chris B wrote:
> To those who say that because the big 3 sold a lot of cars, they
> therefore sell desirable cars, I would like to point out that many
> of them, especially the small cars, were sold at a loss for thousands
> less than their competitors. Zero percent subprime financing and
> $10k "rebates" will always persuade some people. At profitable prices,
> however, no big 3 vehicle can compete in the marketplace with a Toyota
> or Honda. If you disagree with that, perhaps you can explain why
> they chose to accept less money for their cars than they otherwise
> could. Charity?
>
> Also, I don't place much confidence in car magazine journalists who
> take a brand new car, drive it 150 miles, and declare it to be as
> good quality as another brand. Drive it 150,000 miles and tell me
> what you think. Quality means long-term durability and low-cost,
> reliable operation. Judging by resale values, big 3 cars don't tend
> to last that long before they have major problems. If you disagree
> with that, perhaps you can explain why a used-car economy comprised
> of tens of millions of people has priced these supposedly wonderful
> cars wrong and how that gap has persisted for decades. Are consumers
> just overlooking these bargains?
>
> Reality seems to conflict with the marketing slogans coming out of
> Detroit, and the excuses are becoming more and more convoluted.
If the automakers from japan were forced to operate morally they would not be able to field an even close to competitive vehicle. They quality/cost is close to americans now with the odds grossly in their favor.
Mr. West does a great job of pointing out how years of easy money and other distortions of the marketplace allowed it to go on. Now, there is no money left in the Treasury to keep the game going. Game over. Unfortunately for us all.
On Nov 17 04:45 PM AmericanVOR wrote:
> "I'll post this a thousand times if I have to!"
It's a good recipe. One that the rest of the world has copied despite our own forgetfullness.
On Nov 17 05:27 PM Brightlite wrote:
> I am not a technical person in the sense that I don't follow all
> the political debates that are unfolding, and I only read my local
> paper, not the Wall Street Journal. I am a teacher, in high school,
> physics and chemistry so I am intelligent and I use alot of critical
> thinking every day.
> This deal with the bailout helping the auto dealers? My gut says
> let them go under. It sounds terrible to say as so many will lose
> jobs but we have to refrain from moving towards socialism. If the
> government steps in we then are edging more into that pit and ultimately
> the point of no return.
> Where do we draw the line? What companies does the government bail
> out and which does it allow to fall? The answer should be none and
> all. The United States has built its economy on credit and now as
> credit has all but dried up, we are faced with many industries not
> having any business at all. Many companies are looking at losses
> that are staggering and will not recover from this. I think it is
> just time to accept the end of the gravy train, it has gone off the
> tracks, and the derailment will leave many casualties but the end
> result will be reorganization after a certain amount of discomfort
> and strife. We are at war in a way with our own country and its foundational
> ideas. We have lost that war. All countries go through restructuring,
> we must also again, It is inevitable. A bailout will only stop the
> bleeding, it won't heal the mortal wound opened by a gunshot called
> bad mortgages.
> I say if a company cannot remain solvent, it must go under in the
> name of captitalism and all the United States of America stands for.
> We must not sway from our core principles of free enterprise and
> captialism.
> Sorry for typos, I am rushing around right now.
> BL
"Don't kill the messenger.......... "
You don't make a very good messenger.
In fact If you would go bankrupt before the big three if you had to make a living being a messenger based on your inaccuracies and misinformation. But telling the truth wouldn't be quite as much fun would it.
Nobody buys big 3 vehicles.
Reality
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.
Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.
Myth No. 2
They build unreliable junk.
Reality
The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.
Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
Myth No. 3
They build gas-guzzlers.
Reality
All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.
speedzzter.blogspot.co... details why the "Pottery Barn Rule" should apply to the Detroit automakers. Washington's misguided politices broke the Detroit 3 and now they should accept responsibility for it.
Washington's policies broke the Detroit 3. Now Congress should act to fix decades of policies that destroyed the American auto industry.
While we shouldn't give the liberal Democrats and the UAW a "blank check," doing nothing and letting the Detroit automakers be liquidated in bankruptcy would is not a valid alternative.
We need to take hard steps to stabilize the Detroit 3 in the short term, improve their government-imposed cost structure in the long term and move back toward the free market and freedom of vehicle choice that ill-founded federal policies have killed over the past several decades.
No one bill will accomplish all of this. But to do nothing in hope for a perfect bill is playing "Russian Roulette" with our core industrial base and millions of jobs.
You can argue that GM has been caught out by a triple whammy - high fuel costs, frozen credit and recession, two of which were caused, at least in part, by bad government, and therefore some transition financing should be provided to tide them over - and I would agree with that.
But the situation is also due in part to GM Management and UAW. The discrepancy in wage costs between the big three and Toyota (by my rough calculations) seems to be about 4% to 6% of the production cost.
I really don't see how that situation can continue long term.
On Nov 17 04:45 PM AmericanVOR wrote:
>
>
>
> On Nov 17 04:31 PM longgee wrote:
Just like commodities. A farmer is forced to produce more to sell more just to make ends meet. But that just puts more supply on the market, further driving the cost down, forcing the farmer to produce and sell more, just so he can make enough profit to cover his fixed costs.
This is an insane cycle.
Look to Porsche, which makes more profit per car than any auto manufacturer worldwide, yet they make a tiny fraction of the cars the big auto makers produce. They just make cars that people want/desire/dream about, and are willing to pay a fat premium for them.
Now Porsche wants to take over Volkswagen.
On Nov 17 04:42 PM AmericanVOR wrote:
> When you write something that is an outright lie or mistruth, you
> insult on many levels while proving you have NOT researched your
> opinion. You said:
>
> "...cars that nobody wants or can afford to buy"
>
> GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States
> last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far
> this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker,
> selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
>
>
> S0 would you say Toyota is also building cars that nobody wants to
> or can afford to buy?
>
> And your attitude about a parking lot full of recreational vehicles
> REEKS of steroetype. You conveniently leave out the thousands of
> employees like me whose recreation is playing with my kids on the
> front lawn. ONE INCOME family here. I drive a van. No boat. No
> sports car. No motorcyle. No ATV. No snowmobile. No cottage.
> ANd I live in a 1600 sq ft house with a small yard in Warren Michigan.
>
>
> Who the Hell gave you space to spew your LIES?
>
Someone better start fighting for America.
On Nov 17 04:51 PM Dividends Anonymous wrote:
> This is what Chapter 11 protection is properly used for - to protect
> a company from creditors as they restructure properly or fold. GM
> will not go away forever, but their business model is not sustainable.
> Their expenses are too high, revenues too low and products are not
> competitive with foreign competition. Management for far too long
> has been reactive vs. proactive and that gets you owned in the real
> world. I understand that the company is huge, employs lots of workers
> directly/indirectly and many pensioners - but it needs to restructure
> and the only way to do that so something is left is through Chapter
> 11.
On Nov 17 10:12 PM slowdown wrote:
> Once again - Please tell us what the next big ticket item is that
> you will you buy that requires four to five years of financing (mine’s
> five) and would you purchase it from a company in bankruptcy? My
> guess is the answer would be no….as it should be. No one in their
> right mind with a lick of common sense would purchase a vehicle from
> a bankrupt car maker when there are others to choose from. I am
> totally appalled that anyone involved in these discussions believes
> that the general public is that ignorant of the risks involved.
>
>
>
> On Nov 17 04:51 PM Dividends Anonymous wrote:
You are on target...let them file and they will get their act together. Bailouts do nothing as we should have learned from Chrysler who is one of the Pig Three back at the feeding trough, but they got Hemis that get 12 miles to a gallon. Come on folks wake up. The UAW put your asses here with huge salaries and pensions and you suck that down and lived good now you have to pay for yours and the UAW = Unemployed Auto Worker and you whine. If the pig three deserve a damn bailout so does my 401K and every business that is having issues and facing chapter 11. It is very clear that UAW workers and trolls are out in force on boards and politicking, the UAW OWNS Obama and the Democratic party and they now want their payback...did you hear anything before Obama won? Hell no only after 700 billion of our tax money was put in the kitty and then the UAW and pig three saw a chance to screw America again. It will be good for cars and trucks with shoddy workmanship, defects, poor fuel economy and poor reliability to be replaced by Toyota's and Honda's made in America, by American workers. If you think they are Japanese you are stupid!
On Nov 17 11:48 PM Lexus Admirer wrote:
> 1 million retirees on pensions and health insurance. That about
> sums about the auto industry boondoggle. $72/hour all in cost vs
> $48/hour for Honda and Toyota employees. Given enough time, the
> unions can ruin every industry in our country. Furthermore. social
> security and medicare make the domestic auto farce seem like child's
> play.
You are on target...let them file and they will get their act together. Bailouts do nothing as we should have learned from Chrysler who is one of the Pig Three back at the feeding trough, but they got Hemis that get 12 miles to a gallon. Come on folks wake up. The UAW put your asses here with huge salaries and pensions and you suck that down and lived good now you have to pay for yours and the UAW = Unemployed Auto Worker and you whine. If the pig three deserve a damn bailout so does my 401K and every business that is having issues and facing chapter 11. It is very clear that UAW workers and trolls are out in force on boards and politicking, the UAW OWNS Obama and the Democratic party and they now want their payback...did you hear anything before Obama won? Hell no only after 700 billion of our tax money was put in the kitty and then the UAW and pig three saw a chance to screw America again. It will be good for cars and trucks with shoddy workmanship, defects, poor fuel economy and poor reliability to be replaced by Toyota's and Honda's made in America, by American workers. If you think they are Japanese you are stupid!
On Nov 17 04:35 PM pedro66 wrote:
> Just like the circle of life; when an animal dies the scavengers
> consume its carcass and later get eaten themselves by a predator.
>
>
> GM will be ripped into little pieces and sold off to entrepreneurs
> who can and will run the smaller business more efficiently. In the
> next economic boom these businesses will themselves be swallowed
> up by the larger conglomerates and so on…
You are on target...let them file and they will get their act together. Bailouts do nothing as we should have learned from Chrysler who is one of the Pig Three back at the feeding trough, but they got Hemis that get 12 miles to a gallon. Come on folks wake up. The UAW put your asses here with huge salaries and pensions and you suck that down and lived good now you have to pay for yours and the UAW = Unemployed Auto Worker and you whine. If the pig three deserve a damn bailout so does my 401K and every business that is having issues and facing chapter 11. It is very clear that UAW workers and trolls are out in force on boards and politicking, the UAW OWNS Obama and the Democratic party and they now want their payback...did you hear anything before Obama won? Hell no only after 700 billion of our tax money was put in the kitty and then the UAW and pig three saw a chance to screw America again. It will be good for cars and trucks with shoddy workmanship, defects, poor fuel economy and poor reliability to be replaced by Toyota's and Honda's made in America, by American workers. If you think they are Japanese you are stupid!
AmericanVOR,
longgee
You are full of \it...Toyota took the lead from GM months ago can you not read the news? It was a pretty big deal, GM got stomped, the UAW got stomped, and stomped by folks getting half the pay and benefits. Greed got the UAW and its ragbag union employees in the rut. Let the UAW take care of them...they rode the gravy train too long time for Detroit to feel Americas pain.
On Nov 17 11:48 PM Lexus Admirer wrote:
> 1 million retirees on pensions and health insurance. That about
> sums about the auto industry boondoggle. $72/hour all in cost vs
> $48/hour for Honda and Toyota employees. Given enough time, the
> unions can ruin every industry in our country. Furthermore. social
> security and medicare make the domestic auto farce seem like child's
> play.
Exactly the problem...UAW = unemployed Automotive Workers, hey big three folks Toyota and Honda are hiring. But not at UAW wages, half that...oh yeah but they make a profit. hahahahahaah
I will only buy American made Toyota and Honda products. I have one of each and they are better than ANY of the big three products and I have owned plenty.
I can not wait to see you greedy butt heads with your signs "will work for food" outside of WalMart.
I'm sorry this is happening. But many, many have gone before you. You will flail and yell for a while but then, if you want to survive, you have to accept and move on the best you can. Swearing at and calling the author of this article names and giving out his number so others can harrass him is not productive.
Its not true that nobody wants to buy GM, Ford vehicles. But at the same time, it is true that their sell is declining. Not in the international market but unfortunately in US too.
GM needs a revolutionaly brake now. A fentastic vehicle slots, which can overcome Toyota vehicle's efficiency. People need efficient vehicles today because fuel price will increase in future.
GM must develop a backup plan in parallel with Govt aid to improve its operations and vehicle sale.
And by the way, "greed" is just a pejorative for "the pursuit of profits" - which I believe is the motivator for both the capitalist and the union worker alike.
On Nov 17 11:14 PM eisenhowergal wrote:
> It's obvious that the reason we see the GOP so adamant about letting
> GM fail..as opposed to the financial institutions (not to mention
> the bonuses the CEOs get for completely ruining their companies)
> is that the autoworkers are unionized and the financial workers (unfortunately
> for them) are not. The GOP would happily do anything to cause workers
> lose their union rights. If anything, this financial crisis brings
> even greater attention to the fact that we need unions in place to
> protect workers' rights..now more than ever! The Greed is Good crowd
> will never let up..so we can't, either!
On Nov 18 02:22 AM User 263844 wrote:
> If GM failed, it would cause a domino effect unseen in America since
> the 1930's.
When most folks from other countries visit America they always comment on the size of the cars people drive and usulaly shake their heads in disgust.
The big mistake by the US auto makers over the last 10 years was not to offer Americans the smaller cars that they already sell in Europe.
My GM car that i got in England gets 300 miles more per tank of gas that the same car GM makes in America its insane that Americans can not buy these cars.
Honda make a car called the Jazz which gets 730 miles to the tank and you guessed it we cant get it in America!
Like any other business if they make the wrong calls they should go under.
I totaly agree with the other comments posted here let them sink the Big Three are a complete business disaster, Joe
Pigs get fat, Hogs get slaughtered.
On Nov 18 02:43 AM JohnL wrote:
>
> And by the way, "greed" is just a pejorative for "the pursuit of
> profits" - which I believe is the motivator for both the capitalist
> and the union worker alike.
>
>
> On Nov 17 11:14 PM eisenhowergal wrote:
The problem is not simple, the solution is therefore complex or systemic.
Structural changes of the magnitude suffered recently by the world economy are rarely quick. This one has not been an exception. This crisis begun to be felt in July 2007, it has gone one for more than 18 months now. The automotive industry on the other hand is slow to change by its very definition (oligopoly, multi year multi billion investments, global footprint, local regulations, etc). I don’t believe that we should blame Detroit for building the SUV, we must blame them for not being nimble or fast enough to adapt to change. We are in fact asking a transatlantic to behave like a speed boat, and that is contradictory in its logic. Bad decisions in the past, with management-union negotiators allowing for huge pension benefits to go undeclared and unfunded have put GM and the other two Automakers as well in a state of undeclared insolvency, and bankruptcy. The Big 3 spend more money per car on pension benefits than they do in anything else. They have dug themselves into this pit. The SUV were seen by management as the only way out, as these cars are the only ones that can sustain the level of contributions to health care that the industry needs. Allowing the industry time to adapt, I believe is a necessary thing because GM has a capacity for manufacturing and designing cars, second to almost anybody. I believe that it can be counted as one of the top three automakers in the world (Toyota, and VW being the other ones).
Is it in our best interest to allow GM to continue as is, or to fail as is? That is the question we must ask ourselves.
Would you choose to fund these obligations, or would you just let GM, Ford and Chrysler fail? Funding GM alone is ludicrous, you save an industry, not a company. Therefore GM+Chrysler+Ford must be made into a new champion (how, is open to debate, my personal favorite is a big merger, 3 become one!). The US should not loose a champion or an industry and a mayor contributor to a hidden welfare state. Is this restructuring in our best interest?. Champions are not born everyday, neither are industries, and once you loose them (make no mistake if GM goes, so do Ford and Chrysler) it is very tough to get them back.
At the same time, it is ludicrous to pass the burdens of maintaining a welfare state to a private company. So in this sense a corporate reorganization with equity being wiped out, and creditors getting a hit on their obligations has a chance to make GM and the industry as a whole (the automakers, not the healthcare one) a better one, the problem is how fast, and hurting how many people in the process.
So my point is, save the industry, save the jobs (as many as you can). Punish the shareholders, and creditors through a fast and orderly reorganization. In order to do this cooperation among state and corporations should be a top priority, as well as money to fund this transition.
What is with these idiots spouting off nonsense like "more cars that nobody wants or can afford to buy"?
Last I checked, GM sold over 9 million cars worldwide last year, and was the #1 selling company in the U.S. with nearly 1/4 of the market here. That's a whole lot more than "nobody".
On Nov 17 04:04 PM dpro0102 wrote:
> "if maintained by government money, can only churn out even more
> cars that nobody wants or can afford to buy"
>
> Start out with that comment - and it makes you a Moron. Pure and
> simple. GM outsells all comers in North America. Cars that Americans
> are buying. It's funny how we can't stereotype people any longer
> - as it's been proven that - for instance - calling all poor people
> stupid isn't all that truthful. Taking out your wide tipped marker
> and painting all of GM's vehicles as being 'cars nobody wants to
> buy' shows the same sort of stereotyping ,and a lot of ignorance.
> Get over yourself, and stop attempting to pass off your opinion as
> fact. Opinions are most often not fact. Especially in the case of
> yours'.
>
> There are plenty of Americans that want to buy a GMC Acadia. There
> a tons of them that want to buy a Chevy Malibu. Quite a few want
> a Cadillac CTS. The Buick Enclave is selling very well, under 30
> days of inventory even in these market conditions. Their pick-ups
> and Tahoes/Suburbans are the best of their breed. Look at the here
> and now, and not the 90's when trying to sum up GM's product offerings.
> The here and now is impressive.
On Nov 18 07:28 AM User 300402 wrote:
Funding GM alone is ludicrous, you save
> an industry, not a company. Therefore GM+Chrysler+Ford must be made
> into a new champion (how, is open to debate, my personal favorite
> is a big merger, 3 become one!). The US should not loose a champion
> or an industry and a mayor contributor to a hidden welfare state.
> Is this restructuring in our best interest?. Champions are not born
> everyday, neither are industries, and once you loose them (make no
> mistake if GM goes, so do Ford and Chrysler) it is very tough to
> get them back.
>
> At the same time, it is ludicrous to pass the burdens of maintaining
> a welfare state to a private company. So in this sense a corporate
> reorganization with equity being wiped out, and creditors getting
> a hit on their obligations has a chance to make GM and the industry
> as a whole (the automakers, not the healthcare one) a better one,
> the problem is how fast, and hurting how many people in the process.
>
>
> So my point is, save the industry, save the jobs (as many as you
> can). Punish the shareholders, and creditors through a fast and
> orderly reorganization. In order to do this cooperation among state
> and corporations should be a top priority, as well as money to fund
> this transition.
Oh yeah, good idea!
One car company, one insurance company, one repair company, one bank company, one grocer and one of everything!!!
Yes indeed!!
That way there is no competition. No need to make good products. No need for customer service. Ability to control consumer and labor. Huge profits with minimal costs!!
We shall all fall to our knees before the great and mighty corporation!
Any other great ideas?
On Nov 18 07:28 AM User 300402 wrote:
Funding GM alone is ludicrous, you save
> an industry, not a company. Therefore GM+Chrysler+Ford must be made
> into a new champion (how, is open to debate, my personal favorite
> is a big merger, 3 become one!).
In the 80's they said that the crappy cars of the 70's had been improved and quality was first class. "Have you driven a Ford... lately?" was Ford's motto. A lot of people bought into the marketing and were stuck with unreliable cars that wore out quickly, i.e. the Chevy Cavalier.
In the 90's they said that the crappy cars of the 80's had been improved and were world class. "Quality is Job One!" was Ford's motto. Lots of people bought cars that... again... turned out to be crap and depreciated faster than green meat at the butcher shop, i.e. the Dodge Neon.
In the 2000's, it's going to take more than another quality slogan to persuade the customers who have been burnt over and over again to trust Detroit. It is now clear that you can't pay for QC or R&D while paying the salaries and pensions that the big 3 are on the line for. It's a systematic flaw that finds its way into the products.
If the big 3 get bailout money, the logical thing to do would be to use it to close almost all their US plants and rebuild on the basis of their still-profitable foreign presence.
In the 80's they said that the crappy cars of the 70's had been improved and quality was first class. "Have you driven a Ford... lately?" was Ford's motto. A lot of people bought into the marketing and were stuck with unreliable cars that wore out quickly, i.e. the Chevy Cavalier.
In the 90's they said that the crappy cars of the 80's had been improved and were world class. "Quality is Job One!" was Ford's motto. Lots of people bought cars that... again... turned out to be crap and depreciated faster than green meat at the butcher shop, i.e. the Dodge Neon.
In the 2000's, it's going to take more than another quality slogan to persuade the customers who have been burnt over and over again to trust Detroit. It is now clear that you can't pay for QC or R&D while paying the salaries and pensions that the big 3 are on the line for. It's a systematic flaw that finds its way into the products.
If the big 3 get bailout money, the logical thing to do would be to use it to close almost all their US plants and rebuild on the basis of their still-profitable foreign presence.
TO REMIND ALL OF YOU AS TO WHY GM AND FORD ARE IN A MARKET WHERE NO ONE IS BUYING CARS - LET ME TAKE YOU BACK TO LAST CHRISTMAS ON WALL STREET:
"Goldman breaks Wall Street Bonus record"
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/1...
"$15,000 bottle of bubbly? No Problem"
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/1...
"Bad year? Bonuses on Wall Street surge 14%"
usatoday.com/money/ind...
So - please tell me how you can look beyond the additional $40 Billion to save AIG (which must have been approved in about 2 hours) - but giving a loan to your domestic manufacturing industry is just such a horrible idea. Wall Streets mess is spilling out onto Main Street - and your mad at main street.
Not too much press on the Wall Street of December 2007 these days. I WONDER WHY!?!
That's because it's the consensus among people who know about business, economics, and the proper role of government.
On Nov 18 11:55 AM jod wrote:
> It seems seeking alpha and Yahoo are trying to bring down GM on their
> own. Anyone notice its all negative articles.
On Nov 17 04:55 PM Mister Jimmy wrote:
> I really liked the James West that was featured in the '60's series
> "The Wild, Wild West", but this one is just another in a series of
> boobs given a voice on Seeking Alpha. By the way, given the one-sided
> tone of every auto industry article here, it's really starting to
> look they have an agenda. How about ensuring some balance in the
> views that you provide, guys?
On Nov 18 11:55 AM jod wrote:
> It seems seeking alpha and Yahoo are trying to bring down GM on their
> own. Anyone notice its all negative articles.
www.forbes.com/2008/11...
On Nov 17 04:45 PM AmericanVOR wrote:
>
On Nov 17 04:42 PM Maquiavelli wrote:
> And where were you when the tax payer was forced to bail out the
> financial industry?
On Nov 18 10:45 AM dpro0102 wrote:
> So - how many 'Americans' does Wall Street employ and provide pensions
> for and health care for? Why is there so much hatred against Detroit
> asking for a loan - when you gave Wall Street $700 Billion - which
> has no repayment terms???
>
> TO REMIND ALL OF YOU AS TO WHY GM AND FORD ARE IN A MARKET WHERE
> NO ONE IS BUYING CARS - LET ME TAKE YOU BACK TO LAST CHRISTMAS ON
> WALL STREET:
>
> "Goldman breaks Wall Street Bonus record"
> www.msnbc.msn.com/id/1...
>
> "$15,000 bottle of bubbly? No Problem"
> www.msnbc.msn.com/id/1...
>
> "Bad year? Bonuses on Wall Street surge 14%"
> usatoday.com/money/ind...
>
>
> So - please tell me how you can look beyond the additional $40 Billion
> to save AIG (which must have been approved in about 2 hours) - but
> giving a loan to your domestic manufacturing industry is just such
> a horrible idea. Wall Streets mess is spilling out onto Main Street
> - and your mad at main street.
>
> Not too much press on the Wall Street of December 2007 these days.
> I WONDER WHY!?!
>
>
>
>
>
If they are really such a great company, why can't private investors foot the bill?
___
GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
___
How many jobs will be lost? Not just from GM, but from suppliers, etc?
You are writing as if the lost jobs will automatically be replaced by foreign automakers.
Big Three production facilities are typically located in the Michigan/Ohio/Indiana/... Rust Belt. Japanese and German automakers typically locate manufacturing operations in the Deep South.
Obviously, the collapse of the Big Three would be a death blow to the Midwest. Show us some numbers that prove that the U.S. can function as normal with a Heartland that is beyond life support.
If GM sold so many vehicles, over 9 million of them, where is the profit
gone to ? Each day I sell 800 donuts and I am very happy because I
make 16 cents profit each. I keep all the profits, don't have UAW to take it all away. You get the point ?
Folks change and their preferences change over time. Each of GM, Ford and Chrysler, got bad leadership, and designed and built products that at sale produced a negative cash flow!
True the Oil run up in price also got them, but the handwriting has been written on the wall for along time. The leaders at these companies surely saw them too. Just plain chose to ignore all the red flags. That folks is 'bad' leadership.
Now why, pray tell me, we the tax payers, should reward bad leadership?
As sad it is for all those hard working folks that labor at producing cars, that their economic lives will end working at or for a US Automobile company, and I say, this is LIFE.
The world is best served, if we reward merit and not entitle folks to social support. That is and has been the American Way. Nothing is wrong with this.
We are mightily generous people, and when we have any left over we send all over the globe to those less advantaged, but just gioving charity at home, may not help those that seek help.
To my co-citizens in Detroit: Please get re-trained for another vocation, start a business of some ilk, innovate, and trust in your smarts.
There are many un-met needs of our citizenry - and there are jobs in need of good people - so why not look to do them?
Examples: Materials Science, Artificial Intelligence, Robotics, Energy solutions, High-Speed people mover systems, Water and desalination systems, Skin patch medicine, and believe it or not - even starying a Bank!
I suppose you wave the flag, and spout 'country first' and all that sh*t, too.
Yeah, don't ever give up on Iraq, but screw your own country's manufacturing capabilities into the ground... good thinkin' dipshit.
On Nov 18 12:29 AM bumsi wrote:
>
On Nov 18 12:47 AM bumsi wrote:
> let them file and they will get their act together. Bailouts do
> nothing as we should have learned from Chrysler who is one of the
> Pig Three back at the feeding trough, but they got Hemis that get
> 12 miles to a gallon. Come on folks wake up. The UAW put your asses
> here with huge salaries and pensions and you suck that down and lived
> good now you have to pay for yours and the UAW = Unemployed Auto
> Worker and you whine. If the pig three deserve a damn bailout so
> does my 401K and every business that is having issues and facing
> chapter 11. It is very clear that UAW workers and trolls are out
> in force on boards and politicking, the UAW OWNS Obama and the Democratic
> party and they now want their payback...did you hear anything before
> Obama won? Hell no only after 700 billion of our tax money was put
> in the kitty and then the UAW and pig three saw a chance to screw
> America again. It will be good for cars and trucks with shoddy workmanship,
> defects, poor fuel economy and poor reliability to be replaced by
> Toyota's and Honda's made in America, by American workers. If you
> think they are Japanese you are stupid!
>
>
> I will only buy American made Toyota and Honda products. I have
> one of each and they are better than ANY of the big three products
> and I have owned plenty.
You've gotta be an assh*le for wanting the big 3 to fail.... plain and simple.
I suppose you wave the flag, and spout 'Country First' and all that sh*t, too.
Yeah, don't ever give up on Iraq, and keep spending $10 billion/month there, but screw your own country's manufacturing capabilities into the ground... good thinkin' dipshit. I bet you shop at Walmart and love buying all the Chinese crap which is everywhere you look. Our own American businesses have steadily sold us down the river in pursuit of the almighty dollar. The free market crap that Bush believes so strongly in has put the U.S. on a fast-track to decline. Our standard of living HAS to go down, big-time, to compete globally with people working for $8/day in third world countries. Bitching about the UAW, like THAT'S the big problem! The greed of our American businesses that went overseas and built plants over there for the cheap labor is a gigantic part of the problem, and the Republicans gave it their blessing..... along with a lot of moronic Democrats... which includes Bill Clinton pushing NAFTA.
In the meantime, as another SA article points out, the bank that is known as GE may soon run out of liquidity and be next in line for a bailout.
Fannie, Freddie, and AIG will need more money too. Then C, BOA, JP Morgan, and GS will have to be bailed too.
What is the total amount that we are willing to spend to prevent a routine recession? What will the American people have to show for this vast purchase, financed by China? Will we even be able to pay the interest on the national debt?
GM's largest national market is the United States, followed by China, Canada, the United Kingdom, and Germany.
In the late 1990s, the U.S. economy was on the rise and GM and Ford gained market share producing enormous profits primarily from the sale of light trucks and sport-utility vehicles. From 2000 to 2001, the Federal Reserve in a move to quell the stock market, made twelve successive interest rate increases. Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, a severe stock market decline caused a pension and benefit fund underfunding crisis. GM began its Keep America Rolling campaign, which boosted sales, and other auto makers were forced to follow suit. The U.S. automakers saw sales increase to leverage costs as gross margins deteriorated. Although retiree health care costs remain a significant issue, General Motors' investment strategy has generated a $17.1 billion surplus in 2007 in its $101 billion U.S. pension fund portfolio, a $35 billion reversal from its $17.8 billion of underfunding.
In 2004, GM redirected resources from the development of new sedans to an accelerated refurbishment of their light trucks and SUVs for introduction as 2007 models in early 2006. Shortly after this decision, fuel prices increased by over 50% and this in turn affected both the trade-in value of used vehicles and the perceived desirability of new offerings in these market segments.
In 2008 rapidly rising gas prices resulted in a 30% drop off of sales of SUVs which had been GM's most profitable product, often returning profits of 10 to 15 thousand dollars per vehicle. Sales of SUVs had been decreasing since 2004, but in May, 2008 plans for a new SUV platform, the CXX program, were canceled and on Oct. 13 it was announced that it would close the Janesville, Wisconsin plant, which built full-sized SUVs. During the first 6 months of 2008 GM lost $18.8 billion and by late October its stock had dropped 76% and it was considering a merger with Chrysler. In only 12 months (October 2007-2008) GM sales in US have dropped 45 %
On September 24, 2007 General Motors workers represented by the United Auto Workers union went on the first nationwide strike against GM since 1970. The ripple effect of the strike reached into Canada the following day as two car assembly plants and a transmission facility were forced to close. Overnight a tentative agreement was reached, however, and UAW officials declared the end of the strike in a news conference at 4 a.m. on September 26. By the following day, all GM workers in both countries were back to work.
A new labor contract was ratified by UAW members exactly one week after the tentative agreement was reached, passing by a majority 62% vote. In the contract are several product and employment guarantees stretching well into the next decade. One of GM's key future products, the Chevy Volt, was promised to the GM Poletown/Detroit-Hamtr... plant in 2010. Also included is a VEBA (Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association) which will transfer retiree health care obligations to the UAW by 2010. This eliminates more than 50 billion dollars from GM's healthcare tab. It will be funded by 30 billion in cash and 1.4 billion in GM stock paid to the UAW over the next 4 years of the contract. It also eliminates 70% of the labor cost gap with GM's Japanese rivals.
In 2006, GM paid "on average $81.18 an hour in wages and benefits to its U.S. hourly workers." In 2008, after GM offered buyouts to 74,000 workers, the average wage and benefits had dropped to $78.21/hour. New hires receive $26.65/hour for wages and benefits.
GM has announced elimination of lifetime health benefits for about 100,000 of its white collar retirees by the end of 2008.
So let's re-cap:
In the late 90's the auto companies were making HUGE profits.
Then in 2000-2001 the Fed made 12 successive rate increases to quell the stock market.
Then September 11th happens.
Then gas prices rise, and SUV sales plunge.
Yeah, you're right..... it's only logical that we kill the auto industry!
What have they ever done for our country other than provide millions of good paying jobs for the middle class?
Squash ALL the unions...... what have THEY ever done for us other than provide decent wages and health care for huge amounts of the population?
Let's all go back-in-time when we relied on the generosity of the big shots like Henry Ford, Mellon, Carnegie, Dupont, and Rockefeller....... surely they'll take good care of us!
And so what if millions of auto workers, suppliers, dealerships, truckers, railroad workers, department stores, drug stores, movie houses, restaurants, etc., etc.,etc., all have to suffer? Screw 'em all.....
It's time to 'KILL THE DINOSAUR' regardless of tremendous ripple effect this will have throughout the country, hastening the total decline of the U.S. in general....
NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL A PLAN!!!!!!!!
Also it's completely ridiculous for you to say that it's not their fault that economy went down and people can't drive the SUVs they bought. It's like saying that cigarette companies who sold those cigarettes are not at fault because people could afford to buy them, only it's too bad now if they are sick or dying from it because economy has gone down and they don't have a good health care plan or money to deal with the poison they consumed.
Well done big three. You deserve a real spanking for screwing this up and guess what you gonna get it.
On Nov 17 04:37 PM lazaris wrote:
> I agree, GM's quality is as good or better than anything out there
> right now, even Toyota! GM was building the SUV's and trucks that
> everyone wanted, and they built millions of them. Its not GM's fault
> that the economy has sunk and gas went to $4.00, and all those millions
> that wanted that suv or truck ,can't afford to drive it anymore.
>
Bankruptcy is needed here. Reorganize with one U.S. car company under a new management dedicated to being part of the 21st century rather than the middle part of the 20th. Stop coming up with excuses why you suck.
I was born in the 50's and I remember seeing a Pontiac Grand Prix at a car show when I was about 10 years old. I dreamed about the day I could own one. Too bad GM didn't hold on to its dominant position but when you drive with your eyes closed, you will eventually leave the road.
On Nov 17 04:04 PM dpro0102 wrote:
> "if maintained by government money, can only churn out even more
> cars that nobody wants or can afford to buy"
>
> Start out with that comment - and it makes you a Moron. Pure and
> simple. GM outsells all comers in North America. Cars that Americans
> are buying. It's funny how we can't stereotype people any longer
> - as it's been proven that - for instance - calling all poor people
> stupid isn't all that truthful. Taking out your wide tipped marker
> and painting all of GM's vehicles as being 'cars nobody wants to
> buy' shows the same sort of stereotyping ,and a lot of ignorance.
> Get over yourself, and stop attempting to pass off your opinion as
> fact. Opinions are most often not fact. Especially in the case of
> yours'.
>
> There are plenty of Americans that want to buy a GMC Acadia. There
> a tons of them that want to buy a Chevy Malibu. Quite a few want
> a Cadillac CTS. The Buick Enclave is selling very well, under 30
> days of inventory even in these market conditions. Their pick-ups
> and Tahoes/Suburbans are the best of their breed. Look at the here
> and now, and not the 90's when trying to sum up GM's product offerings.
> The here and now is impressive.
Ask 10 people, 9 will point their fingers at UAW.
Simple as that.
On Nov 17 04:04 PM dpro0102 wrote:
> "if maintained by government money, can only churn out even more
> cars that nobody wants or can afford to buy"
>
> Start out with that comment - and it makes you a Moron. Pure and
> simple. GM outsells all comers in North America. Cars that Americans
> are buying. It's funny how we can't stereotype people any longer
> - as it's been proven that - for instance - calling all poor people
> stupid isn't all that truthful. Taking out your wide tipped marker
> and painting all of GM's vehicles as being 'cars nobody wants to
> buy' shows the same sort of stereotyping ,and a lot of ignorance.
> Get over yourself, and stop attempting to pass off your opinion as
> fact. Opinions are most often not fact. Especially in the case of
> yours'.
>
> There are plenty of Americans that want to buy a GMC Acadia. There
> a tons of them that want to buy a Chevy Malibu. Quite a few want
> a Cadillac CTS. The Buick Enclave is selling very well, under 30
> days of inventory even in these market conditions. Their pick-ups
> and Tahoes/Suburbans are the best of their breed. Look at the here
> and now, and not the 90's when trying to sum up GM's product offerings.
> The here and now is impressive.
Even if we still had a healthy investment banking community and a strong economy, this would be a daunting challenge for private capitalism.
Now, it needs to be led by the best experts in Congress, Judiciary, and Administration who have our entire national interest at stake, including return on our investment in this industry.
I am not a big fan of Mitt Romney as a political figure but he may have the best set of skills and relationships to accomplish this enormous task. His father was the head of an American car company and he has led a successful investment company.
If the Obama folks and congress want to reach out to get problems solved, he may be a good choice to lead this critical effort for the future of our country.
Hell, if they can do it why can't we all do it? What if we were all union workers? Welcome to socialism.
Your biggest problem today isn't defending yourselves. Most of us out here in the real world won't buy it anyway. Your biggest problem is that these aren't isolated conversations among scattered groups of people any more. Your biggest problem is that maybe millions of people are reading letters like this and elsewhere and feeling the same way.
There's no stopping the bailout, if there is to be one. I personally wouldn't want any politician I happen to like and support to throw his career away by taking on the unions. So where does that leave us? Many, many people are probably reading this, and many may be thinking the same thing: " OK. Bail them out if you have to. We can't help what they do with the taxes they take from us. But not penny of the money I get to keep will ever contribute to one of those ridiculously big paychecks again."
You might think about getting real. A lot of people are really getting mad. We are the people. And the people don't have to fear losing your votes - you only have to fear losing our dollars. You think you're entitled to more pay and benefits than some doctors and engineers get, because as some of you have said on other discussion boards, you "work hard?" Sorry. Got news for you. Some of the hardest work there is doesn't pay very well. Outside of Michigan's parasitic little UAW empire that's the way it is. Most of us do NOT get, or have an opportunity, to get, a job right out of high school that pays like that and allows them to retire at fifty with a big fat pension and medical for life, already having made far more money than most of us will make working till we're - well, too old to work.
How does this hurt us? Companies pass on these costs to consumers. The consumer price index, our primary measure of inflation, goes up. You, of course, get your cost-of-living increases which you negotiated into your contract. So the purchasing power of your selfish overpaid butt is still intact. But the rest of us, which happen to be in the majority, didn't participate in the mechanism that drove prices up in the first place, even though our money is now worth less, too. You drive prices up for everyone then protect yourselves from the resulting inflation. By doing so you only maintain the purchasing power of your oversized paycheck while at the same time making the other 80% of us poorer. You have no incentive to study and do well in school because when you graduate, with luck, you'll make more money than someone who did...probably a lot more. The end of all you've known may be coming and you won't even understand why. Because, you see, going on strike won't help you against us. You'll get no concessions from the people who are so fed up with what you've been doing to them that we will no longer buy anything you make. And the bailout? Won't matter in the long run.
There are some good arguments for letting them fail. Allow a new set of leaders restructure, retool, rehire, and compete. That's fine and dandy in the best of times. But, they will still be required to honor the retired UAWs. I hope no one is supporting throwing them to the wolves of poverty.
I believe one thing is certain. If we let them fail, we will solidify a prolonged and deep recession. Our stock markets will take a major hit. In current times, I just don't think ,despite the rhetoric from congress, we will let them fail. Look for a bail out in late Jan 09.
It does not speak well of the big 3 showing up in Washington asking for a piece of our tax money pie like hyenas on a lion's kill. It sure must be tempting, though. They'd be silly not to try.
Bail outs of lucrative business never goes over well with the population who did not get a simple mortgage bail out. But, in this case it's a matter of weighing the best and worse case. Letting them fail will be worse in our current environment, even if failure is inevitable.
Where is the insurance industry in all this? They have lots of money. The UAW will have to make serious concessions, too. Let's wait, let them fail later and give them some money with serious (yet to be determined) restructuring strings attached...at least until this recession blows over
Just my opinion.
The sad thing is it's all about earnings, not jobs and not people.
On a related subject, we've all mentioned UAWs medical care expenses. So, what if anything, are we gonna do about the insurance industry? My guess is, nothing at all.