Let's Hope the Auto Bailout Has Failed for Good 81 comments
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Let's hope that the auto bailout has failed for good. The fact that U.S. auto companies (more specifically, employees) weren't willing to reach parity with the wages of their Japanese competitors by 2009 was outrageous. For this stalwart, it is a relief that this bailout did not pass, and I find the markets' negative reaction to the result very short sighted. (This of course presupposes that the U.S. and world markets' drop was indeed a reaction to the auto bailout news, as financial media ascribe. Nevertheless, assuming that markets did fall in reaction to the news, then their reaction is very misguided.)
Rewarding and sustaining value-destroying companies is not good for markets, whatever the apparent near term jobs loss. Overpaid workers for companies which lose money are not value creating for an economy. Reallocating workers into positions which earn a profit for their companies is.
One crucial point widely ignored in all the talk of U.S. auto industry collapse is that in the current situation we're actually just talking about the collapse of the current major US auto companies, in their current form, and not necessarily the industry.
Here's a shocker - Might the demise of the old actually leave room for the new? We might actually have new, leaner, efficient U.S. auto companies emerge out of all of this, whether as restructured companies based on the old or perhaps even (and this would be very exciting) brand new companies. It was a pretty crowded space for a new U.S. automaker to appear previously, especially with the fear of getting snagged by onerous employee contracts.
What if a new company could pick and choose the assets it wanted from the old dying companies, and employ the best U.S. autoworkers available with a salary system far less parasitic than the current UAW backed system?
There is definitely room for at least one major U.S. home-branded automaker in the American popular psyche. Just marry a truly American branding with efficient operations, good design, and strong marketing, and then perhaps you have a business. If the U.S. can make iPods, semiconductors, and passenger jets, there's no reason why cars competitive vs. the Japanese are some sort of insurmountable task. Or maybe in the end, U.S. companies have better businesses to pursue than auto manufacturing. This no one can predict for sure.
But I see no reason why the bankruptcy of the current U.S. automakers' corporate entities spells the demise of the U.S. auto industry. And in fact, it could actually spur a renaissance in U.S. auto leadership once the field for U.S. branded cars gets less crowded - provided automaking is a profitable worthwhile business on par with other opportunities for US investment. From this perspective, I feel then the failure of the auto bailout is actually positive, rather than negative, for the U.S. economy, and in turn U.S. and global markets.
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This article has 81 comments:
On Dec 12 07:14 AM EC48 wrote:
> Yes I'm sure that's exactly what will happen, Then once all the parts
> suppliers go bankrupt we can pick and chose and take the best. Same
> goes for all the dealerships, ad firms, etc. just like the tooth
> fairy and santa claus.
www.fordvehicles.com/t.../
When there is talk of starting from the ground up, what about the retirees and surviving spouses? What happens in 20 years when Toytota has a significant number of retirees? Will states be inducing China to build factories and will we then tell Toyota you must restructure because you have legacy costs and have them kick their retirees to the curb? I am for capitalism, but not this type.
It's bad enough that there isn't any transparency with the Trillions of dollars that are being poured into (someone's pockets) America... what are we supposed to do now... let the rest of America keep struggling just so the employees of the big 3 can continue to work for amazingly high dollars? Yeah, whatever. If they cannot take a decrease in pay, screw them - let them eat bread and draw unemployment like the rest of us.
I couldn't agree more with this article. Let them fail and as capitalism works, someone else will pick up the pieces and create a manufacturer that competitive and creates worthwhile autos.
On Dec 12 07:37 AM EC48 wrote:
> pctecguy, if this were a different time, say two years ago, I would
> agree as the econmy could bear it, in todays econmic environment,
> the fallout will be crippling. It's not GM or the UAW I care about,
> it's me.
On Dec 12 08:08 AM John D wrote:
> It's really hard to believe that so many that want to see the North
> American economy fail so much that they are blind as to what the
> consequences are going to be - 1st the financial crisis - 2nd the
> credit crisis and strike 3 - failure to give the industry help to
> keep the economy rolling - Is it the company - the union or the government
> ....Hmmmm. Lets back up now if all of the high priced help in the
> government with all of their expertise could not see the financial
> crisis was going to hit the industrials - THEY LET THE USA DOWN -
> not to mention the tsunami that is rippling around the globe. They
> would rather see 3 million American families without a way to support
> their families (which is now 12 million Americans - 4 per family)
> instead of sucking it up - do the math and fix that which should
> never have gotten started in the 1st place - were there no flags
> or warnings that this was coming or did they just ignore it long
> enough to head to higher ground in Washington with their pensions
> and investments intact. Hmmmm??? It was not the fault of the employees
> and their families they were just trying to make a living, I guess
> the term "casualties of WAR" comes into place - TRILLIONs spent to
> protect the country from others and ZERO to protect it from itself.
The UAW make avg $48,000. (Toyota around $43,000)The $70,000 figure is for loading the legacy costs of pensions health care etc etc etc on the current much smaller workforce.
New employees are hired at around 60% of that. Wage parity with foreign owned plants is only a couple of years off the problem is legacy costs.
On Dec 12 07:47 AM Big Dumb GUy wrote:
> I cannot believe that anyone considers $70,000.00 a year in salary
> non-negotiable. What the heck has everything come to? I cannot believe
> that tax payers want to actually support these failing companies
> by the BILLIONS of tax payer dollars. What happened to the rise of
> capitalism? Obviously it has been reduced to socialism on the way
> down.
>
> It's bad enough that there isn't any transparency with the Trillions
> of dollars that are being poured into (someone's pockets) America...
> what are we supposed to do now... let the rest of America keep struggling
> just so the employees of the big 3 can continue to work for amazingly
> high dollars? Yeah, whatever. If they cannot take a decrease in
> pay, screw them - let them eat bread and draw unemployment like the
> rest of us.
>
> I couldn't agree more with this article. Let them fail and as capitalism
> works, someone else will pick up the pieces and create a manufacturer
> that competitive and creates worthwhile autos.
Bonuses? Gone. Salaries for the CEO? $1 under the new plan. Options? Nope. Jets? Gone.
On Dec 12 08:15 AM jam221 wrote:
> hmmm, how about cuttin the fat from the top down, do they all need
> a half dozen private jets, how about the upper managements huge bonuses,
> when their companies are in the crapper, should these idiots at the
> top still get hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of stock and
> options, and instead of making millons of dollars a year for driving
> their companies into the dirt, maybe their wadges shouldnt be any
> higher than 25 percent above their top paid hourly workers, i mean
> really its not like management builds anything or even adds anything
> to the autos, Stop running car adds every few mins on all the tv
> channels, heck just doing that would get them back in the black,
> then maybe a car wouldnt have to sell for 30 grand, and the working
> man could afford to buy 1, maybe even pay his mortgage also if an
> auto didnt cost as much as a house
And the financial market collapses????? Investors actually want a 3 month bandaid --vs-- a real solution??????? I don't think so, but with the help of the hysterical financial media, some very cheap shares of FORD will be bought today by savvy investors with long pants!!!!!!!!
IMHO
"One crucial point widely ignored in all the talk of U.S. auto industry collapse is that in the current situation we're actually just talking about the collapse of the current major US auto companies, in their current form, and not necessarily the industry."
Really? Apparently these guys need to learn a little about how intertwined the industry really is and how slim the margins are for most of the suppliers out there. What happens when those suppliers (currently debtors to GM, F, & C) are forced to take cents on the dollar as payment? How many of THEM will collapse? I'm going with Mark Zandi's view of things being cataclysmic in the event of a bankruptcy.
We can once and for all end dirty and noisy maufacturing in America and focus on retraining the auto and supplier workers for clean high tech jobs or as medical technicians. We can use the bailout money to build mass transit so the retrained workers can travel responsibly to those proper jobs. We can get all those big scary trucks and SUVs off the roads. Foreign automakers will provide the smaller clean fuel efficient hybrids that Americans should be driving.
I think I can already smell the daisies - or is it the air freshener in the bathroom.
Please explain to me why this is a stupid idea!
Auto Workers Pension funds must have enough $$ to buy a significant portion, if not all, of the debt of F and GM at pennies on the dollar.
Covert those bonds into preferred shares, equity, what else (experts?) and relieve a good part of the financial pressure on these firms.
In short, surely the auto workers, with the value of their pension funds, must have enough equity to bailout their employers. Maybe they could own the companies!
All their eggs in one basket!? That's the life of a real entrepreneur.
My eighty year old mom lost her retirement through the rulings of a Federal Bankruptcy Judge. Thankfully the Union and the Federal Gov't picked it back up. If the company I worked for goes belly up, I could lose my retirement and health care.
Most of you are talking out your asses. You have no idea what it is like to be in the position you are advocating. Most of you are fat cats with big undeserved salaries and retirements. I'm living on 2600 a month. I used to be able to count on 500 to a thousand a month from my investments. That went down the drain. You bas____ds come live with me.
The Republicans and many business people have advocated privatizing retirement. This is exactly why it won't work. You work all your life scrimp and save to put money in a retirement program; and, just when it's time to retire the economy goes into a "retraction" or a "recession" or more likely another "great depression". Then you consider yourself lucky to have a job let alone a retirement.
No golden parachute for the working man.
If the Automakers go under, it could very well be the straw that broke the back of the US economy.
How many of you have forgotten the old addage "a stitch in time saves nine".
On Dec 12 07:34 AM McBain wrote:
> Ford is building cars equal to the Japanese in quality and fuel efficiency,
> and better in safety. Also reduced their models. They did what needed
> to be done, now, because credit is tight and people can't borrow
> for cars, they need a bridge loan to get them through the economic
> downturn caused by the housing mess. Read pages 15-17 of the Plan
> they submitted to congress:
> www.fordvehicles.com/t.../
> When there is talk of starting from the ground up, what about the
> retirees and surviving spouses? What happens in 20 years when Toytota
> has a significant number of retirees? Will states be inducing China
> to build factories and will we then tell Toyota you must restructure
> because you have legacy costs and have them kick their retirees to
> the curb? I am for capitalism, but not this type.
Billions for the automakers who build products that a significant percentage of the potential market chooses not to buy ...
For the rest of the country, the questions are mounting: What if we don't own a home, or a new car? Tell us again, why we are being asked to prop up the house of cards? Our grandchildren will still be paying for these so-called 'bailouts', which everyone will soon realize bought us nothing. A trillion dollars, to finish right where we started.
If the cards fall, and the people who collectively made the mistakes that led us here are out of the way, and the immediate future for our economy is indeed looking grim. Retailers will sell less. Services will be suspended. A galactic correction occurs in our capitalistic world, but at least we still have that capitalism. After the ashes of the mess that is our current model for doing these businesses cools, then new models will quickly rise that are smarter and more relevant. A year or three of contraction will be followed by a new order ... and most of those responsible for the bad business will be gone. From the bankers who looked the other way when home loan applicants misrepresented their incomes, the business leaders who somehow believe that 2 plus 2 equals 22, to the UAW members who think they are 'entitled' to their jobs at a time when the products they build clearly are not selling; within a short few years our country would be stronger and better after a resurrection of a better business culture. Our country is far different from the USA of the 1930's. We would rebound and emerge better and stronger (just like we did in the 1940's).
Or, should we reward failure and ask present and future generations to pay for it?
Maybe we should give the billions to the banks and the automakers who are NOT struggling. They didn't paint themselves into corners or build boats in their basements. They would become stronger and more dominant, creating jobs and supplying services that the majority of Americans already find more desireable compared to those of the losers who need the bailouts. If we continue to throw good money after the bad, most of us won't be able to afford to go to a bank, nor buy a new car.
Hail Stalwart and their selflessness !
(journalists don't get tickets for bad journalism)
All this would be fascinating to watch if it did not have the potential to further increase the destruction of wealth that has already occurred and drag the country into a much deeper and longer recession than we are in.
I do find it somewhat ironic, that the bail out of the financial industry came with no strings attached, no metrics to see if the financial institutions did what was expected and regardless of the fact that tens of thousands of people each made millions through decisions that have created this financial mess. The fact they made millions driving the economy to ruin through rampant greed and self interest is apparently of little concern to the granters of the financial bailout and there has been no talk about limiting their salaries or bonuses.
The UAW is willing to compromise and wage parity would likely be reached in 2011 when the present contract expires.
GM, Ford, and Chrysler are good community stewards. They have done measurably more to help the USA. Take a look at the money and products they individually contributed following 9-11 and then contrast that with the stinginess of the Asian transplants.
Remember Lily Tomplim's "Maw Bell" skit? "We are the telephone company and we don't care." This was the attitude of several industries that, as my grandfather used to say"...got too big for its bitches and got into trouble." These included the steamboat industry before the railroads. Then it was the railroads, Then it was the telephone company, Then it was Standard Oil. Now it is the automotive industry.
Unfortunately for labor, this negative management attitude has also infected the UAW.
One of things that is also brewing is the financial arms of the foreign auto manufacturers, i.e. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and others. Their owners (stockholders) have invested their plants with no bail-outs.
I am sure they are asking "Why should they permit the Big Three to continue to compete against their firms, using government bail outs?
We have not hear the last from this group, and they will play an ever increasing role in determining the out- come of the former "Big Three". They are playing their cards..."very close to their vest", because they have trump hands, better plants & labor agreements, better management, better financial position, better marketing, and an "Ace High"...better "Quality"
If anything, Apple has shown that good design can go a long way.
The economic crisis is at hand, and considering it is completely and entirely global, its ugly consequences will penetrate all of our lives from every angle - you can bet your last dollar on that.
Relatively speaking, whether or not the big three make it... their fate is similar to that of a gnat hitting a windshield at 55 if they do not change their ways.
On Dec 12 08:24 AM Derrik D wrote:
> Get the facts straight:
>
> The UAW make avg $48,000. (Toyota around $43,000)The $70,000 figure
> is for loading the legacy costs of pensions health care etc etc etc
> on the current much smaller workforce.
>
> New employees are hired at around 60% of that. Wage parity with foreign
> owned plants is only a couple of years off the problem is legacy
> costs.
and to blame the union. the union pertech workers . from compains of saying your are fired.sure we could play the blaming game.but the buck stop here. and its hitting hard for a lot of usa people. if u want to blame anybody. then blame the stock market for playing game with people money. and life /and shooting oil prices up . to make a fast dollers this is what are goverment want to do. remove the middle class. and then it will be either poor or rich only.then u have no rights at all.because your are poor. only the rich have rights and money to back it up. and live the great american dream. when u have no money u are nothing. and u count for nothing u will try but u get no ware my last thoughts are. war is not a pretty word. untill all can agree on 1 thing. war will alway reamain
$17 for auto workers in 90 days.
These free market guys now want to set wages
(Pixxed off lame duck senators.)
They have to get even with the unions somehow.
The House and the Senate approved the $700 billion bailout plan, and the President signed the bill. Then the Senate failed to approve the auto bailout, making it clear that the will of our representative government is that the auto makers should not be bailed out.
It's only going to get worse, I'm afraid.
The extremist-capitalists and their zero-sum nonsense must be wiped from the face of the planet. Now.
As they seem to truly believe that some have to suffer for the good of the system I suggest we start with them! Today! Now.
Indeed. Americans represent only 5% of the worlds population. Americans consume 26% of the worlds resources. Americans cause 95% of the worlds wars. Time to fail. Now!
I can't wait for the collapse. Everyday I wake and look to see if America has fallen, has finally gotten her karmic due. I won't have much longer to wait.
Let's see the vitriol that these sentiments elicit! I'll bet the extremist-capitalist scumbags will howl the loudest! Indeed, it will be interesting to see them react to the very same hatefulness they are targeting the unionists with.
Indeed.
On Dec 12 08:32 AM james brown wrote:
> gm and other american car makers failed simply becuase they produced
> junk cars and did not keep up with scientific advance made by othr
> asian utries such as korea and japan. they should not blame anyone
> but themselves. this is good development for consumers.
You mean, like the vast majority of the rest of Americans, and the rest of the world? Oh, the tragedy!!! Those big bad meanie Japanese auto companies, running their businesses like the VAST majority of American companies. Oh, I weep for their workers! They are going to have to actually save for their own retirement, like humans have had to do for millenia. How unfair!
American cars: All posters who made comments on car quality are incorrect. For a decade, GM has been ahead in objectively measurable quailty. Now Ford is doing very well. Ford hybrids are better-executed than Toyota's, and GM has better technology than Honda. Welcome to the 21st century.
UAW wages: It does not matter if new hires are on par with competitiors. Detroit has hundreds of times as many who are not. It is not fair to cut existing salaries, but it is better than unemployment in the worst state in America. Additionally, the UAW forces automakers to pay employees whether or not a plant is even open! The UAW offered to reduce wages by $.01/hour. No wonder the Senate thought it was a waste to throw money at them. Detroit is not sustainable unless everything is overhauled. No money without guarantee of success is a good idea. Too bad the Senate didn't think about that before the Wall Street bailout.
Bosun.J: I feel sorry for you. I have been to a lot of countries, and the USA is not bad. If you are that filled with hatred for 300 million innocent working people, then you cannot be bailed out for any amount of money.
Not sure about the credit crisis lending to this issue. Qualified buyers, or those who have a history prior to this year of paying back their loans have no problems buying cars. The rub is in the sub prime market. Should we reproduce the mortgage debacle in car lending (again)?
If your house is being foreclosed upon, you do not need a new car no matter the manufacturer.
On Dec 12 08:25 AM EC48 wrote:
> John D is right and we should remember that the root cause of the
> problem are the financial institutions and the government who allowed
> the financials to operate in an irresponsible manner. If it wasn't
> for their greed we wouldn't be in this mess but I didn't see any
> of the CEO's of financials subjected to the belittleing, maybe somewhat
> deserved, that the Detroit automakers went through.
On Dec 12 11:16 AM bosun.j wrote:
> The comments herein have convinced me once and for all that America
> needs to fail. To disappear. For good. Now.
>
> The extremist-capitalists and their zero-sum nonsense must be wiped
> from the face of the planet. Now.
>
> As they seem to truly believe that some have to suffer for the good
> of the system I suggest we start with them! Today! Now.
>
> Indeed. Americans represent only 5% of the worlds population. Americans
> consume 26% of the worlds resources. Americans cause 95% of the worlds
> wars. Time to fail. Now!
>
> I can't wait for the collapse. Everyday I wake and look to see if
> America has fallen, has finally gotten her karmic due. I won't have
> much longer to wait.
>
> Let's see the vitriol that these sentiments elicit! I'll bet the
> extremist-capitalist scumbags will howl the loudest! Indeed, it will
> be interesting to see them react to the very same hatefulness they
> are targeting the unionists with.
>
> Indeed.
It served to reveal that many herein are akin to Pavlov's dogs.
It served to reveal that many herein are too sensitive.
It served to reveal that many did not read the whole comment.
It served to reveal that many only want to be comforted by having their views regurgitated back to them.
Already did. Some years ago. Thank you.
On Dec 12 01:10 PM sumosama wrote:
> hate to sound corny, but if things are so bad, then MOVE!!!
>
"Then the Senate failed to approve the auto bailout, making it clear that the will of our representative government is that the auto makers should not be bailed out"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The House, one part of our representative government passed the bill. A small point that you omitted. The Senate another part of our representative government did not pass the bill. So it’s a tie.
The TARP funds were designated by Congress to be used at the discretion of the White House, the Executive branch of our government. This was done because the Executive branch can react more rapidly than the Congress.
According to the White House…
"Given the current weakened state of the U.S. economy, we will consider other options if necessary including use of the TARP program to prevent a collapse of troubled automakers. A precipitous collapse of this industry would have a severe impact on our economy, and it would be irresponsible to further weaken and destabilize our economy at this time."
So the Executive branch stepped in and effectively broke the tie.
That is a prime example of how our Government should work, and I might add this is probably Bush's finest hour. He is doing what needs to be done irrespective of whether its against his ideological principals.
Lets look at those words again…
"A precipitous collapse of this industry would have a severe impact on our economy, and it would be IRRESPONSIBLE to further weaken and destabilize our economy at this time." The Republican White House is calling the action of the minority Republican members of the Senate that failed to back the bridging loan bill as IRRESPONSIBLE.
The current Captain of the ship realises that the ship hit an iceberg, and this is not the time to be sitting in the back waving the flag and spouting ideological positions. This is the time to be bailing. If your not bailing, then you are dead weight, and need to be jettisoned.
AMEN! I'm with you 100%. Chapter 11 exists for a reason. It's in the auto companies best interest to go into Chapter 11 and restructure all their obligations and come out the other end a lot more competitive.
Even with a bailout there were going to be massive layoffs since nobody is buying new vehicles.
My comment was addressed to the behaviour of a small minority of senators who acted to block passage of interim funding. One of these American Heroes was so inflexible, that they said they would filibuster ANY attempt to pass any interim funding bill irrespective of any conditions. That is not problem solving, or bailing or what ever else you want to call it. You can't negotiate with that kind of thinking. We need to find ways to work together to solve the problems. Presenting non-negotiable requirements is not negotiation. You also have to keep the big picture in mind. If the automotive manufacturers are allowed to go bankrupt, it is going to cause unbelievable chaos in our country. Allowing that kind of avoidable chaos to cause unbelievable damage would be irresponsible.
On Dec 12 01:10 PM sumosama wrote:
> hate to sound corny, but if things are so bad, then MOVE!!!
On Dec 12 05:46 PM consumeronstrike wrote:
> He lives in thailand. Hope he stays there
>
>
> On Dec 12 01:10 PM sumosama wrote:
Bottom line is at some point the union workers are going to have to swallow the pill and accept lower wages more in line with foreign competitors. Competing on a national level is gone the way of the dinosaur. To be viable now, companies must compete on a global market and bottom line is there are people who would love to have assembly line jobs making a third of what the big 3's employees do. If we give them money, it does nothing but prolong the inevitable. Sure they may (I doubt it seriously) improve their design but there will still be someone who will make it cheaper.
I've read in numerous sources that the union recently agreed to lower starting wages from the mid twenties to 14-16 per hour. Starting wages! I agree everyone should be entitled to make a decent living but come on, when your job is to take a machine that hangs from the ceiling and guide it to one place and push a button to pick up a tire and then guide it over to the vehicle to place it on the axle, I think 14-16 is gross overpayment with several years experience under your belt. I've worked much harder jobs than that for minimum wage.
Makes me feel good that I can say that I have enough money to last me to the end of my life. Half of that is in gold, in case money becomes a wasting asset. If my planning is a little off, then I have 20,000 rounds of 223 to tide me over. My kids are now grown and in pretty much the same place.
A good deep Depression is what I want. Prices and wages spiraling down. I earned my money when wages and equities were up. It will be nice to have 25 cent hamburgers and $3.00 restaurant meals. My wife & I will have plenty of time to eat out. With unskilled wages maybe 50 cents per hour, it will be cheap to hire out lawn cutting, maid service and car washing. Actually, with a good Depression, I probably won't have to dip into my 223 ammo, and can instead go out as a philanthropist - donating old clothes and food scraps to the homeless shelters and soup kitchens. I can see the smile on my face.
It's looking better all the time. Yeah, to hell with the unionized leaches and the stupid debtors over their heads in credit cards and mortgages. And mostly, tho hell with the collateral damage. There are no innocents.
Kind of eye opening…
In this great recession turning into depression era, few consumers can afford to buy a new car. Just look at the toyota, honda. They suffer from the lost sales, albeit at a lower percentage point compared to so-called big three. The artifically inflated sales number due to 0 percent financing from years past is gone. One or more auto makers will not survive, with or without auto bailouts.
What comes around goes around. UAW got the power to dictate the pay, and in the end, UAW got burned by its power. Kind of cancer. Cancer cannot survive if it kills its own host.
Kind of eye opening…
Wow those wages are very high aren't they? Don't worry though once the big bad UAW is gone the foreign automakers can cut those wages down to WALMART levels, isn't that what all the fatcats and jealous a##holes out there really want.
As to the comment of dropping them to wal-mart level, why not? As I alluded to in my earlier post, most of these jobs are not exactly difficult. Where does the sense of entitlement come from that the union workers should make sixty grand a year to stick a tire in place but the wal-mart employee sticking boxes on the shelf should not? Neither job is more important than the other or more difficult.
It all goes back to the market we live in. Either we accept the fact that some jobs by nature simply cannot be middle class pay range jobs and some people are just going to have to live with that or we are going to watch more and more of our manufacturing go overseas. Its a fact of life.
On Dec 12 11:16 AM bosun.j wrote:
> The comments herein have convinced me once and for all that America
> needs to fail. To disappear. For good. Now.
>
> The extremist-capitalists and their zero-sum nonsense must be wiped
> from the face of the planet. Now.
>
> As they seem to truly believe that some have to suffer for the good
> of the system I suggest we start with them! Today! Now.
>
> Indeed. Americans represent only 5% of the worlds population. Americans
> consume 26% of the worlds resources. Americans cause 95% of the worlds
> wars. Time to fail. Now!
>
> I can't wait for the collapse. Everyday I wake and look to see if
> America has fallen, has finally gotten her karmic due. I won't have
> much longer to wait.
>
> Let's see the vitriol that these sentiments elicit! I'll bet the
> extremist-capitalist scumbags will howl the loudest! Indeed, it will
> be interesting to see them react to the very same hatefulness they
> are targeting the unionists with.
>
> Indeed.
And excellent reason to end defined-benefit pensions and change them to 401(k)s where you at least know what you have in your account.
The retirement costs have killed GM, and we are supposed to bankrupts our future trying to bail out these failed approaches and over-payment packages?
What the ‘bailout’ of GM will do is turn it into a useless zombie institution that, thanks to the govt teat, wont be willing nor able to do the real restructuring it needs to do to beomce a healthy company.
The bailout negotiations failed in the Senate because the the GOP Senators and UAW locked horns over whether the UAW would make labor cost concessions in the next year, to bring wage costs to be competitive with folks like Toyota. Unless and until GM labor costs align with Toyota etc., they will be INHERENTLY unprofitable. So the GOP Senators were right to demand this UAW concession, to ensure this bailout wasnt a money pit. No concession means no deal is a good deal.
Harry Reid thursday night lamented the breakdown of the negotiations and said that he hated to see what would happen to the markets Friday... well the markets did fine. These guys who think govt bailout of GM will save anything are full of beans.
This is a moment in which many nations are watching and confirming that the United States are NOT united.
My sense is that other countries would assist their industries to weather these economic conditions.
Nice to hear from you again. And, right back at ya!
It wasn't millions who "stopped" Thailand "in its tracks". Come on counselor, let's get your facts correct!
It was thousands who stopped 350000 foreign tourists in their tracks. For a week. Those of us living here for the most part went about our day as normal. Businesses operated as they normally do. The trains still operated. Life is good in paradise.
The foreign tourists cried bloody murder. Shameful really.
As for lese majeste, I don't have to worry about that. You see, Jimbo, the reality is the King is highly revered for a very good reason. He is an excellent King! He loves Thailand and Thai people. I greatly admire the King and have the utmost respect for the reverence Thai people have for His Majesty. There aren't many rules here but this one is a good one.
As for your "hope" for disarray. Jimbo, you're beginning to sound allot like me!
Chok dee Jimbo, chok dee
On Dec 13 01:41 PM Jimmy Lathrop wrote:
> Bosun.J, we went through this a few weeks ago when you were crowing
> about your ability to hold gold in Thailand. Since you wrote that,
> millions of people stopped your country in its tracks forcing the
> Prime Minister to leave. You have consistently shown wrongheaded,
> ill-informed and incendiary comments while the reality of the situation
> is that you live in a society where you need gold because you have
> no idea who is going to knock on your door, drag you out into the
> street, and charge you with insulting the King. My only hope is that
> the political system in your country is thrown into such disarray
> that internet access is cut off so that I no longer have to read
> your insipid, thoughtless excuses for comments.
According to that individual, the solution to stopping US manufacturing jobs from going overseas is to have American workers accept the dollar equivalent of wages in third world countries. Countries who's cost of living is substantially lower, health care non-existent, and who's level of taxation is also substantially lower. To them anyone performing blue collar jobs needs to accept the fact that some jobs, by nature, can't be associated with middle class pay ranges, and these people need to live with that or watch their jobs go overseas.
Sending US jobs oversees seem to be the answer for many US businesses that focus on short term profitability as the wealth of this country is systematically siphoned off because we buy everything from other countries. Countries that produce goods and services of questionable quality. How about that Chinese Milk, or the imported pet food that killed so many dogs and cats in this country? Some things that are manufactured in this country cost more for good reason.
I am angry about the failed negotiations for the bridging loan. The UAW and Senator Corker could not negotiate a time agreement as to when the absolutely necessary pay cuts take effect. The UAW insisted on 2011 as per their contract. Senator Corker insisted that the pay cuts be made in 2009. So instead of negotiating between those two rigid end points, we have hundreds of thousands of jobs and the well being of the entire US economy put into jeopardy.
The reason Wall Street did not go off a cliff when the negations failed was because the White House stepped in and said they would arrange for the funding through the TARP funds to prevent bankruptcy. The White House understands that allowing companies the size and complexity of GM, with their long integrated supply trains to go bankrupt would disrupt our countries economy and throw hundreds of thousands of people out of work. In doing this, Bush went against his personal feelings, and he went against the opinion of the majority of Republican senators. He made his decision on the basis of what he felt was right for his country. President Bush has not had a lot of praise lately. In my opinion, this was one of his finest hours. Way to Go President Bush!
You have allot more patience than I have for these extremist-capitalist and their spew. Well done. Their religion is capitalism and their god money. Hopefully this argument won't go on as long as that of Sunni and Shia.
On Dec 13 04:20 PM Bob Lunn wrote:
> According to one comment, "people" like auto workers should be making
> minimum wage, and even at that level, they are overpaid based on
> that persons experience of working really hard jobs for a lot less
> money in their past. Their concept of the difficulty of automotive
> workers jobs is apparently limited to a video clip of workers putting
> tires onto vehicles using mechanized helper tools. Based on what
> they know about working an automotive assembly line there is no difference
> between what an auto worker does and a Walmart employee sticking
> boxes on the shelf.
>
I've worked assembly lines before. Oops, there goes that video clip theory. As a matter of fact, the last one I worked on without breaking a sweat I turned out about 50% more product per shift than the other guys and you know what their worries were; not that I would get a promotion or a raise, but that management would realize they could do more and expect them to do it. Imagine the nerve.
I didn't say they should work for third world salaries either but facts are facts. People in less developed countries will work for less. Either we work for less (not equal, just less) or use less labor to be competitive or foreign made will continue to be cheaper. People will continue to purchase the best product they can for the least money they have to. Hands down, thats foreign right now.
You made fun of my walmart employee comparison versus the assembly line worker but you didn't point out any meaningful differences.
Nothing is short term about manufacturing going overseas, its been happening for decades at an increasing pace and until the wage issue is dealt with among other issues, it will continue.
As for things in this country costing more for good reason. You are right, some things are better but autos are not one of them. I and my family never bought foreign until 1999. Before that we bought good ol GM and Ford and once we got 50K miles on them, it was a guaranteed thing they would start breaking down, using oil, squeaking, getting noisier etc..... I bought a toyota in 1999 and it just rolled 317,000 miles. All I've ever done is change the starter once, the battery twice and the oil every 4K miles. Doesn't squeak, use oil, and its still as tight as the day I bought it. Now, my entire family drives foreign. No good reason here to buy american autos.
With respect to people not being able to read… My comment about short term profitability had nothing to do with the length of time manufacturing jobs have been going overseas.
My comment is as follows:
Sending US jobs oversees seem to be the answer for many US businesses that focus on short term profitability as the wealth of this country is systematically siphoned off…
My comment concerns the focus of American business management on short term profitability. It has nothing to do with the length of time manufacturing jobs have been going overseas. In contrast, Asian automotive manufacturers don't focus on maximizing today's profits, they focus on longer term profitability goals.
"I've worked assembly lines before. Oops, there goes that video clip theory. As a matter of fact, the last one I worked on without breaking a sweat I turned out about 50% more product per shift than the other guys"
Actually you just confirmed the video clip theory… you can't work faster on a automotive assembly line because the line moves at a fixed speed. Of course you would know that if you had experience working on an automotive assembly line.
With respect to your quality and reliability comments, I had exactly the same poor quality experiences with some past owned American vehicles. My 66 Ford Mustang was a joy to behold, but it was built to fall apart in three years. We can thank Mr McNamara and his cost cutting mantra for that. That is what often happens when you have a finance person running just about any company.
Like you, I also said I would never own another American manufactured vehicle. We form part of what the American automotive manufacturers call the lost generation. Lost because of the past American automotive manufacturers rapacious behaviour.
However, over the past few years, the JD Power quality and long term reliability ratings for many American vehicles has sharply increased. In many categories, they own the top positions! The American manufacturers have made increased quality and reliability of their vehicles a top priority, and their efforts have clearly resulted in improved vehicle ratings. I almost purchased a new Saturn last year. It had great quality ratings, and I really like the no haggle way they sell their vehicles. Contrast that with the highly negative customer satisfaction ratings associated with the purchase experience in the average Toyota dealership.
Will the higher level quality American vehicles last for over 300k miles? Frankly, I doubt it. But then most vehicle owners, foreign and domestic trade their vehicles in long before 300k miles. In fact, if you own a vehicle that long, it becomes part of the family and you can't even think of it rotting away in some junk yard.
What's happening over the last decade is Asians like Chinese and Indians have become more educated and smarter to realize that Americans are not as productive in comparison as decades before and they are being pampered by the foreign debt. Decades ago, Americans were a productive country in the real sense until they've become to always way overstress the importance of the businesses of "moving money around".
That's whay I learned and observed when I had my further studies in the States. This years and years of complacency amongst the Americans especially the young generations led to this financial meltdown in which the world is starting to realize that the businesses of "moving money around" must be analyzed based on the real merit and not analyzed based on the fact that they're businesses of "moving money around".
Americans are trying to come out of this by ONLY bailing out with TRILLIONS of national deficit and foreign debt on the money-related businesses since they realize that their best way of maintaining the status quo (American is the no. 1 country in the world) is not to let these money-related businesses to go down. The big 3 are not Americans' bread and butter businesses anymore since Asians have become and will become much "better in all sense" at manufacturing businesses.
As long as the Asians do not fully realize this fundamental fact of life, Asians can only rise slowly against Americans. Of course, these are watershed times where the wealth of Asians are steadily rising due to the complacency of Americans. They think they deserve the current standard of living when most Americans do not even care and understand about the world outside the States. They think the world revolves around them.
Full economic decoupling between Asians and Americans would not happen since it's an interconnecting world out there. However, Asians are not experiencing full impact from the American-led meltdown since Asians have been steadily shielding themselves from external adverse impacts by developing their domestic markets.
Believe me, the day will come when the Asians become so fed up with the lofty standard of living that the Americans were having in the past and are still having nowadays are never justified and the Asians will keep on slashing their country financial reserves from the American debt. Of course, there will be economic impact to the Asians themselves but do you think Americans can keep on being complacent and inflating the deficit to trillions and trillions of dollars? In the real sense, countries are like individuals. One cant keep on borrowing money throughout one's life without being "more productive in the true sense". Americans will continue to feel these excruciating pains until they truly realize that the world doesnt revolve around them only.
I agree and have made several comments to several of our senators (no replies yet) stating that Ford has been reducing its operating companies and getting rid of companies that were not profitable. Bill Ford in his tenure at Ford said "we are going to restructure Ford and when done, we will be a smaller company and have less market share, but, we will be profitable!"
When GM get serious and makes similar moves rather than being arrogant and flaunting a faulty business model, and for Gods sake, enough of this struggle to be #1. Be profitable, build quality, build attractive cars (can you say Aztec?), build economical cars, and, eliminate the legacy cost via bankruptcy. If you do these simple things, your market share will rise and may some day be #1 again.
On Dec 12 07:34 AM McBain wrote:
> Ford is building cars equal to the Japanese in quality and fuel efficiency,
> and better in safety. Also reduced their models. They did what needed
> to be done, now, because credit is tight and people can't borrow
> for cars, they need a bridge loan to get them through the economic
> downturn caused by the housing mess. Read pages 15-17 of the Plan
> they submitted to congress:
> www.fordvehicles.com/t.../
> When there is talk of starting from the ground up, what about the
> retirees and surviving spouses? What happens in 20 years when Toytota
> has a significant number of retirees? Will states be inducing China
> to build factories and will we then tell Toyota you must restructure
> because you have legacy costs and have them kick their retirees to
> the curb? I am for capitalism, but not this type.
Anyway, I'm thankful to say I no longer work assembly line jobs. My hats off to all those that do because unless you are just a lazy bum, the ongoing repitition of a simple activity day in and day out is terrible.
My only point is something has to give and the only realistic alternative is to force these guys into bankruptcy and make them get on par with their real competitors and not just those across the street with the same problem.
Your handle is intriguing... Gulf?
Should they bail out the big 3? I don't know. My Honda is paid off. I don't have a mortgage. My credit cards are paid off. My student loans are paid off. I could live on unemployment for a while. I just wouldn't like it.
Should the unions have paycuts across the board? Yes, but so should the execs and so should every government person from Osama/Obama down to the local city clerk.
Most places don't have pensions anymore. The ones with pensions are no longer encouraged to save for the future... because the allowed someone else to do that for them. So much for that pension. IRAs and 401ks took a beating because of financial markets and housing markets and then oil prices dropping - yes, there were investments in those areas in every 401k and IRA that wasn't personally designed, and even most that were! So the ones that are sitting pretty now are the ones who maybe made less but stuck pennies, nickels, dimes, and dollars into coffee cans around the world. They, at least, have bus money.
On Dec 14 10:31 AM Bob Lunn wrote:
> Honest discussion of issues and positions leads to mutual understanding
> and respect. We may not agree on the best course of action, but we
> do agree on the ultimate goal… Labour salaries must be reduced, Management
> salaries must be reduced, Management must be changed or we are doomed
> to repeat the same mistakes. The rest of the go-around is mostly
> all adjectives and of course the occasional expletive.
>
> Your handle is intriguing... Gulf?
We were walking through part of the plant and there were refrigerator boxes with TVs and radio's with blankets and people sleeping in them. I asked "how in the world is this allowed to happen?" He flat out said, we cant fire them, we cant dock their pay, we have no options. The UAW runs this plant, not us!!!!
The UAW does not want to give concessions until the end of the 2011 contract expires.... GREAT! For the first time since the 1970's, the union will find its rightful place, UNEMPLOYEED! Then you will see some real bitching. I absolutely can not wait to see (disgusting pig!) Michael Moore's next movie!
The unions have been outdated and unneeded since the 1960's to early 1970's. There are 17 federal and state agencies the look out for employee rights and safety practices.
This ship will right itself if allowed to file for a packaged chapter 11, if this occurs, the remaining company (likely Ford) will be allowed to crush the union and eliminate this over bloated archaic structure once and for all.
RE: "Those UAW workers you whine about have doubled their productivity over the last 15 years, have you doubled yours?"
Chuckie, young man, the productivity gains in the last 100 years or so have come from automation and robotics. Humans can only do a certain amount without tools... the better the tools (in quality, quantity and design), the more product a singular human can create. Humans cannot physically work 20% faster!!!! Especially with the union stewards looking over their shoulders.
Not only the UAW, but many other unions are loathe to adopt automation and robotics because it reduces the need for so a large number of workers. They have generally fought to keep the productivity of workers from rising in order to keep the status quo of the production process. Production companies, particularly the Japanese and less so the Germans are keen on automation and robotics.
So Chuckie, laddie, Eat your words!
Rikiki
On Dec 13 08:10 PM Asians wrote:
> Americans have always been known to be better at manipulating Asians
> in money-related businesses. That's why Americans can still live
> way better and way beyond their means even though they are only good
> at "moving money around" and continuously inflate the national deficit.
>
>
> What's happening over the last decade is Asians like Chinese and
> Indians have become more educated and smarter to realize that Americans
> are not as productive in comparison as decades before and they are
> being pampered by the foreign debt. Decades ago, Americans were a
> productive country in the real sense until they've become to always
> way overstress the importance of the businesses of "moving money
> around".
>
> That's whay I learned and observed when I had my further studies
> in the States. This years and years of complacency amongst the Americans
> especially the young generations led to this financial meltdown in
> which the world is starting to realize that the businesses of "moving
> money around" must be analyzed based on the real merit and not analyzed
> based on the fact that they're businesses of "moving money around".
>
>
> Americans are trying to come out of this by ONLY bailing out with
> TRILLIONS of national deficit and foreign debt on the money-related
> businesses since they realize that their best way of maintaining
> the status quo (American is the no. 1 country in the world) is not
> to let these money-related businesses to go down. The big 3 are not
> Americans' bread and butter businesses anymore since Asians have
> become and will become much "better in all sense" at manufacturing
> businesses.
>
> As long as the Asians do not fully realize this fundamental fact
> of life, Asians can only rise slowly against Americans. Of course,
> these are watershed times where the wealth of Asians are steadily
> rising due to the complacency of Americans. They think they deserve
> the current standard of living when most Americans do not even care
> and understand about the world outside the States. They think the
> world revolves around them.
>
> Full economic decoupling between Asians and Americans would not happen
> since it's an interconnecting world out there. However, Asians are
> not experiencing full impact from the American-led meltdown since
> Asians have been steadily shielding themselves from external adverse
> impacts by developing their domestic markets.
>
> Believe me, the day will come when the Asians become so fed up with
> the lofty standard of living that the Americans were having in the
> past and are still having nowadays are never justified and the Asians
> will keep on slashing their country financial reserves from the American
> debt. Of course, there will be economic impact to the Asians themselves
> but do you think Americans can keep on being complacent and inflating
> the deficit to trillions and trillions of dollars? In the real sense,
> countries are like individuals. One cant keep on borrowing money
> throughout one's life without being "more productive in the true
> sense". Americans will continue to feel these excruciating pains
> until they truly realize that the world doesnt revolve around them
> only.
The big price disparities between countries won't last forever with free and open borders and wages are being driven down - but with some inflation in certain items - the wages are also being driven up at the same time. Very odd set of circumstances but the one thing we can all agree upon is that middle class America is being squeezed. You need not look any further than the extraordinary amounts of debt Americans have taken on to attempt to sustain their lifestyles. This was all so unsustainable. You can't borrow forever. We shouldn't have to borrow forever. Sometimes it seems like the main difference between America and the rest of the world is the ability for its citizens to get big mortgages.
I find it funny that many praise the Japanese automakers for giving their employees low wages. It is necessary if you want free and open borders and it makes sense, but is it praise worthy? It's just inevitable, even the domestics have been doing it. The only difference is the domestics have legacy costs from a long time ago - a different time... How can you fault them for that? That said, I don't want bailouts... Chapter 11 exists for a reason and it would be helpful for the domestics to go through it so they can fully restructure their obligations.
I want someone to explain to me how Middle Class America first emerged. I didn't think it was purely based on debt, nor was it based on lowering wages.
The events that will play out from now on will be dictated by reality. The economy is going to get worse and the Big3 is going to loose more money. Bush will just wash his hands and chip in some money (probably around $5 to $10B) to keep them alive till early next January. Obama and his Democratic Congress will legislate a bailout to them alive for another six months or so for another $20B.
The perpetual saga will continue because at this moment the Big3 products are overpriced and undervalued. UAW Ron just blew it last Friday. He turned down an offer to cut wages NOW. Remember when you were trying to sell your house? Your first offer is really the "Best Offer". I think Ron made a mistake because if they cut now and be competitive, they could receive receive more in the future when things start to turn around.
The bottom line, and please recognize this, is COMPETITION. No one can survive with foregone entitlement. Look at the Brits: car manufacturing is gone, shipbuilding is bone, consumer electronics is gone, aircraft manufacturing is declining, you name it.
When do we really come to grips with Reality?
December 14, 2008
A “No” vote on the loan package for Detroit’s Big Three was a chance for the GOP senators from the South who led the charge against the legislation to kill two birds with one stone. Not only could they strike a blow to the United Autoworkers, a traditional adversary, but they could also advance the economic interests of their own states. Unfortunately, these senators voted against the economic interests of their own country.
Foreign automakers have spent billions building plants in the states these senators represent. Should America’s automakers go down for the count, Americans would still need cars and foreign automakers would step in and spend additional billions building more plants in, you guessed it, the states of these very same GOP senators.
Christopher Hayes of The Nation magazine was interviewed on MSNBC’s Countdown with Keith Olbermann show last week and pointed out what he called “the worst-kept secret in Washington.” Hayes was referring to the glaring double standard that these Southern senators, Alabama’s Senator Richard Shelby in particular, have displayed.
“They’ve been throwing taxpayer dollars at Toyota for years in Alabama and no one raises a stink about that” Hayes said. In fact, as Olbermann noted, Alabama alone has given more in tax subsides per job to foreign automakers than Detroit was asking for in the bailout plan to save jobs at American companies.
The Big Three haven’t been competing against Toyota and Honda and Nissan; they’ve been competing against Japan. Unlike America, that nation actually has an industrial policy. While our government talked about the virtues of free trade, the Japanese government worked hand in glove with their automakers to help make them the world leaders.
Japan is aggressively trying to do with autos what they did with consumer electronics – undercut American manufacturers, drive them out of business and capture the American market. Japan heavily subsidizes their automakers, they fund their research, they manipulate their currency, and they erect trade barriers that make it virtually impossible for American automakers to export to their country. Think the fact that Pacific Rim nations buy up 80-percent of our government debt has something to do with keeping our government from enacting policies to level the playing field? The bank that holds your mortgage doesn't dance to your tune, you dance to the tune of the bank that holds your mortgage.
I don’t care what you’re manufacturing or if your CEO is Albert Einstein, if you are competing against a country that actually has universal health care, while you’re forced to add $1,200 to $1,500 to the cost to every unit you manufacture to cover your employees’ health care, you’re not going to be competitive. If your country doesn’t rebate the value added tax when you export your product while your competitor’s country does, not only will you be priced out of their market, your foreign competitor’s government subsidy will put them at a tremendous price advantage on your home turf.
Now, thanks to the likes of Senator Shelby, the Big Three are not only competing against Japan, they’re also forced to compete against their very own government.
The fact that nothing is made in America anymore is a familiar lament of Americans. But here’s what Americans don’t seem to get: what little is still being manufactured in America is increasingly being made in foreign-owned plants of foreign-owned companies.
I realize that there is a long history of sharecropping in the South, but I see no advantage to we Americans becoming sharecroppers in our own country.
Hey, Southerners: Detroit 3 helped you to survive
BY TOM WALSH
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST
When Hurricane Katrina slammed into Louisiana and Alabama on Aug. 29, 2005, the automobile companies of Detroit did not harrumph that the gulf coast should have been better prepared.
They didn't sit back and wait for New Orleans to submit a detailed plan for future repair of the ruptured levees.
General Motors Corp., on Aug. 30, donated $400,000 to the American Red Cross 2005 Hurricane Relief Fund, pledged to match up to $250,000 more in employee contributions, and sent more than 150 vehicles to the stricken area for use in relief work.
Ford Motor Co. and the UAW quickly made a joint donation of $100,000 to the Red Cross. The Chrysler Group gave $150,000 to the Red Cross and $200,000 to local New Orleans charities. DaimlerChrysler Services chipped in $200,000 for the Red Cross and pledged to match employee donations up to $50,000.
The three Detroit auto companies together gave more than $18 million in cash and vehicles to the Katrina relief effort in the ensuing months. No strings attached.
The U.S. Senate’s most adamant naysayers about whether Detroit deserves rescue loans should have thought about that before now. It might have made Thursday’s futile wrangling over a compromise to get $14 billion in emergency rescue loans for GM and Chrysler a bit less tortuous.
U.S. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., for one, might have dialed down his earlier rhetoric.
Vitter said Wednesday that he plans to vote against the rescue because, in his words, it is "ass-backwards" to give money to the distressed companies before Congress sees more detailed survival plans.
Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., should think about Hurricane Katrina, too. He has threatened a filibuster against the bill, calling it "a bridge loan to nowhere" and stating that Detroit's automakers should undergo a fundamental restructuring before they ask Congress for money.
None of the logical arguments made by, or on behalf of, Detroit's auto industry seem to resonate with certain congressional critics.
Not the fact that GM, Ford and Chrysler have slashed billions of dollars in costs. Not the fact that they have the nation's top-selling pickups and minivans. Not the fact that they have lots of high-mileage vehicles and more on the way. Not the fact an auto company bankruptcy would have a horrible ripple effect, wiping out scores of suppliers and making hundreds of thousands more U.S. workers jobless.
No, to the most adamant auto-rescue opponents in the Senate, Detroit doesn't make cars people want. It's a dinosaur not worth preserving.
Could the opinions of these senators be colored by the fact that the foreign-owned plants of Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, BMW, Nissan and Volkswagen -- which compete with the Detroit Three -- are located in their states?
Nah, let's not even go there.
Let's just say that since logic hasn't worked, we should fall back on a simple moral argument.
If you see a fellow American is drowning, gasping for air, do you quiz him for a while about whether he's drunk or why he never learned to swim better? Or do you throw him a life buoy and ask questions later?
That, it seems to me, is where we are with America's car companies.
You have done nothing and failed them, senators.
So now it's up to President George W. Bush and Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson to, hopefully, rush in with emergency aid from the $700-billion Troubled Assets Relief Program.
They could still hold the Detroit Three's feet to the fire afterward, empowering a strong auto czar to bring all stakeholders together to forge business models for these companies that can withstand future shocks.
On Dec 12 08:08 AM John D wrote:
> It's really hard to believe that so many that want to see the North
> American economy fail so much that they are blind as to what the
> consequences are going to be - 1st the financial crisis - 2nd the
> credit crisis and strike 3 - failure to give the industry help to
> keep the economy rolling - Is it the company - the union or the government
> ....Hmmmm. Lets back up now if all of the high priced help in the
> government with all of their expertise could not see the financial
> crisis was going to hit the industrials - THEY LET THE USA DOWN -
> not to mention the tsunami that is rippling around the globe. They
> would rather see 3 million American families without a way to support
> their families (which is now 12 million Americans - 4 per family)
> instead of sucking it up - do the math and fix that which should
> never have gotten started in the 1st place - were there no flags
> or warnings that this was coming or did they just ignore it long
> enough to head to higher ground in Washington with their pensions
> and investments intact. Hmmmm??? It was not the fault of the employees
> and their families they were just trying to make a living, I guess
> the term "casualties of WAR" comes into place - TRILLIONs spent to
> protect the country from others and ZERO to protect it from itself.
And if one of the big three go under, the "foreign" auto companies won't take advantage of the vacuum to "screw" everybody, either. The price structure will do what it naturally does - the remaining companies will find the optimum price at which they will make the most profit. The unit price which will enable them to sell the most product for the greatest profit. In other words, they would COMPETE, something detroit can't currently do.
What is currently happening is a capitalist backlash against a socialist organization that refuses to recognize itself as such and insists on the "rights" of its members to levels of pay and benefits greater than most of the other eighty-seven percent of us have.
I don't dispute or negative the contributions of the unions in benefiting the labor movement over the past decade. Every wage/salary earners in this country and around the world owes them a lot. However, as I hinted above, they need to change given the current circumstances. True, this nation had thrived on politics ever since its founding, and even Ben Franklin couldn't get a descent pension from then Congress because of politics.
But mind you, it is no use holding on to a "Knob Hill" syndrome akin to the Civil War, when Lee, arguably a more brilliant general then Grant who was more adept. There is no such thing as a MUST WIN. Lincoln was more adept and Davis less so, as LIncoln was quicker to change commanders when the going got tough.
Again, like I said above, take that offer while it is still there, and no one says you couldn't come back and get a better deal later when the situation improves.