$10 an Hour Pay Gap = Billions of Extra Dollars a Year 54 comments
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According to Saturday's Detroit News:
Including benefits and other compensation, UAW workers cost $55 an hour on average [MP: Not counting legacy costs], compared with an hourly cost of around $45 at the transplants.
- As far I can tell, GM currently employs about 70,000 hourly workers (after buyouts) and Ford (F) about 50,000. Assuming a 40-hour week and 50-week year, the $10 per hour pay gap would put GM at an annual cost disadvantage of $1.4 billion annually, and Ford's annual cost disadvantage would be $1 billion.
- According to the 2008 Harbour Report (see CD post), the Big/Little 3 produce vehicles at a $606 labor cost disadvantage per vehicle vs. the foreign transplants. Assuming GM will produce 3 million vehicles this year, the $606 labor cost disadvantage per vehicle would cost it an additional $1.8 billion vs. its foreign competitors. For Ford's estimated 2 million vehicles produced in 2008, it will cost them $1.2 billion more than if Toyota (TM) or Honda (HMC) produced those vehicles.
Comment: Both estimates suggest that the current pay gap between UAW workers and non-union workers at the foreign transplants impose additional labor costs on GM and Ford in the billions of dollars per year. And that's without legacy costs.
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This article has 54 comments:
Again, thank you for the good review!
Again, thank you for the good review!
If we compare GM and Toyota, who both made almost exactly the same number of cars last year, we find that Toyota made 28 Bil and GM lost 17 Bil, if I remember correctly. I would like to understand the full 45 Billion difference in results.
Personally I am for what is in our nations best interest. That means bankruptcy with an appropriate haircut for all. The crazy thing is that would be in the best interest of the workers as well.
However as long as feeding on free money at the government trough is available, why would any party want to pursue any other option.
As we have seen on TV a few times in the last 20 years or so, programs that have shown the pride and company loyalty that Asian workers embrace. A dedication by workers to do a good job and create a successful company. This idea has been integrated, to a point, into the American plants of these companies. These companies try to create a team approach in their business, and do.
To the dismay of American producers that have also tried this approach over the past years, it does not work. The labor unions will not allow it to work.
Many labor unions look at the company as "the enemy we must fight daily to obtain what we want from them". Company loyalty, forget it.
I am convinced that unless the "Big Three" are able to get more control over their workforce, they are doomed to failure.
Good work, thank you. I've seen numbers that indicate the pay gap is as high as $800 a unit, but you make the point well.
Unions are truly fascinating. Rather than have everyone work for a little less, their excessive demands often end up putting a major portion of THEIR OWN MEMBERS out of work. And, more often than not, PERMANENTLY.
If one didn't know better (?), you'd think these union leaders didn't know how to use an adding machine. But my conclusion after many years is it isn't about their MEMBERS, but these leaders selfishly staying in power THEMSELVES.
You'd think these hard working people would have caught on to this game by now, and my own suspicion is many of them have. But doing something about ending the stranglehold these people have on their so-called "Brothers" is difficult. And without access to "Right to Work," practically impossible.
Meanwhile, while Detroit's automakers and their poor employees are headed toward financial ruin, their non-union Southern brethren and the rest of us can only stand sadly by and observe their plight in horror.
No matter how much of our tax money the Democrats decide to spend to "save" Detroit, it's not going to work. Even if they attempt to legislate the non-union automaking states into the UAW, as well. Over time this will only serve to push that much more of our U.S. manufacturing base offshore.
And the saddest part is it didn't have to happen at all.
This is the thought of your standerd bearer form th UAW. I hear you loud and clear...the ignorant south dont know no better, we jus some dum folk down here. What you wish to happen to our labor force is the corruption that has now brought your downfall in the SMARTER northern states. Well, the folks over at the honda plant here in South Carolina will be going to work next month, taking pride in the work they do and getting payed for such. GM products are shoddy, you take pride in screwing your boss and this is what you get... enjoy
maximus
On Dec 14 08:48 AM drummerboy wrote:
> what your analysis fails to mention the reason why these foreign
> companies always seek to be in the southern states of this country
> is because labor, and the cost of living is so much cheaper.look
> at the history in this country, and the old adage, the south is gonna
> do it again. you may still be in the dark ages with the mentality
> that labor is cheap, or should be cheap,hence the reason why the
> civil war was fought. show me one of these foreign car companies
> that establish themselves in a geographical area that is anywhere
> north kentucky. you won't! these car companies that come to this
> country know more about history and demographics in order to get
> the most bang for their buck. remember,it's the south who have NEVER
> had respect for the labor force, chaingangs,civil war,slave labor.
> come one folks, he who blames labor for any type of ruination in
> this country is a fool.blame a working man for working.thats insane.whats
> even more insane is the notion that its a union's fault. wake up
> america. he who has never belonged, or has never gotten their finger
> nails dirty will never understand.time to keep the eye on the real
> ball is now. southern politicians who want to protect the notion
> that labor is only worth 20k a yr., lawyers and insurance companies
> as well. get a clue
Speaking of clues, you might get a couple yourself if you'd take the time to actually read this post and the comments here and think about them some. No one's out to get you!
America's not an island anymore, despite how we might like it to be. Millions of Americans have lost their jobs to worldwide competition already, and it's not going away barring another World War or some other similar catastrophe.
The point is how we can best deal with the situation we now find ourselves in, and what we all need to do to confront this new reality. Sure, it would be great if we could all get paid $55 an hour for our labor, but I believe the reality is you're in the wrong line of work to do that presently.
If you can live with $45 an hour now for what you do, it is my opinion you'd find alot more of your fellow Americans who'd support your efforts.
The people here know more about hard work than any place in this nation.
At least we still know what the word PRIDE means, which is why we are getting all the industry now. Unions suck, always have. The end result is Detroits present state.
The South is rising again, and the North is just pissed because they have pissed all their opportunities way by their greedy nature.
On Dec 14 08:48 AM drummerboy wrote:
> what your analysis fails to mention the reason why these foreign
> companies always seek to be in the southern states of this country
> is because labor, and the cost of living is so much cheaper.look
> at the history in this country, and the old adage, the south is gonna
> do it again. you may still be in the dark ages with the mentality
> that labor is cheap, or should be cheap,hence the reason why the
> civil war was fought. show me one of these foreign car companies
> that establish themselves in a geographical area that is anywhere
> north kentucky. you won't! these car companies that come to this
> country know more about history and demographics in order to get
> the most bang for their buck. remember,it's the south who have NEVER
> had respect for the labor force, chaingangs,civil war,slave labor.
> come one folks, he who blames labor for any type of ruination in
> this country is a fool.blame a working man for working.thats insane.whats
> even more insane is the notion that its a union's fault. wake up
> america. he who has never belonged, or has never gotten their finger
> nails dirty will never understand.time to keep the eye on the real
> ball is now. southern politicians who want to protect the notion
> that labor is only worth 20k a yr., lawyers and insurance companies
> as well. get a clue
On Dec 14 09:15 AM MAXIMUSPACS wrote:
>
> This is the thought of your standerd bearer form th UAW. I hear you
> loud and clear...the ignorant south dont know no better, we jus some
> dum folk down here. What you wish to happen to our labor force is
> the corruption that has now brought your downfall in the SMARTER
> northern states. Well, the folks over at the honda plant here in
> South Carolina will be going to work next month, taking pride in
> the work they do and getting payed for such. GM products are shoddy,
> you take pride in screwing your boss and this is what you get...
> enjoy
> maximus
>
> On Dec 14 08:48 AM drummerboy wrote:
You also need to consider how much longer the big 3 have been in business. This means they have far more retirees to consider. You must take care of the retirees, they paid their dues in poor and unsafe working conditions to give us all the better work environment we now enjoy.
I can remember the recession of the 80's and it was ugly! Farmers across the country lost their farms. Some had been in their families for many generations. Elderly people were eating cat food and being found frozen to death because they tried to stay warm using a 100 watt light for heat. This is not a time I want to see our country go through again!!
Letter to the Editor
The Financial Post
Dear Editor;
Kelly McParland demands CAW concessions as part of any deal to restructure the North
American auto industry (“The CAW must give ground,” November 19), and says that our
days of representing the “labour aristocracy” are over.
Firstly, McParland forgets that the CAW was the first major player in the North
American industry to respond pro-actively to the devastating effects of the financial crisis
and credit crunch. Just two months ago our new 3-year contract came into effect:
freezing wages, suspending cost of living protection, and introducing savings totaling
$300 million per year (or over $10,000 per worker per year) for Canadian automakers
once fully implemented. Auto labour costs are significantly lower in Canada than in the
U.S., Germany, and Japan – yet our productivity is higher (at least 10% better than in
America).
Secondly, the CAW is hardly a “labour aristocracy.” We represent 255,000 workers,
across Canada, in an incredible range of sectors (only 10% of our members work for the
Big Three). Some of our members make $10 per hour – yet their employers, too, demand
concessions as a knee-jerk response every time broader financial problems arise that the
workers didn’t create. Every round of concessions just reinforces the race to the bottom
that is devastating the quality of life for working people, no matter what their wages.
Ken Lewenza
National President, CAW
When Hurricane Katrina slammed into Louisiana and Alabama on Aug. 29, 2005, the automobile companies of Detroit did not harrumph that the gulf coast should have been better prepared.
They didn't sit back and wait for New Orleans to submit a detailed plan for future repair of the ruptured levees.
General Motors Corp., on Aug. 30, donated $400,000 to the American Red Cross 2005 Hurricane Relief Fund, pledged to match up to $250,000 more in employee contributions, and sent more than 150 vehicles to the stricken area for use in relief work.
Ford Motor Co. and the UAW quickly made a joint donation of $100,000 to the Red Cross. The Chrysler Group gave $150,000 to the Red Cross and $200,000 to local New Orleans charities. DaimlerChrysler Services chipped in $200,000 for the Red Cross and pledged to match employee donations up to $50,000.
The three Detroit auto companies together gave more than $18 million in cash and vehicles to the Katrina relief effort in the ensuing months. No strings attached.
The U.S. Senate’s most adamant naysayers about whether Detroit deserves rescue loans should have thought about that before now. It might have made Thursday’s futile wrangling over a compromise to get $14 billion in emergency rescue loans for GM and Chrysler a bit less tortuous.
U.S. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., for one, might have dialed down his earlier rhetoric.
Vitter said Wednesday that he plans to vote against the rescue because, in his words, it is "ass-backwards" to give money to the distressed companies before Congress sees more detailed survival plans.
Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., should think about Hurricane Katrina, too. He has threatened a filibuster against the bill, calling it "a bridge loan to nowhere" and stating that Detroit's automakers should undergo a fundamental restructuring before they ask Congress for money.
None of the logical arguments made by, or on behalf of, Detroit's auto industry seem to resonate with certain congressional critics.
Not the fact that GM, Ford and Chrysler have slashed billions of dollars in costs. Not the fact that they have the nation's top-selling pickups and minivans. Not the fact that they have lots of high-mileage vehicles and more on the way. Not the fact an auto company bankruptcy would have a horrible ripple effect, wiping out scores of suppliers and making hundreds of thousands more U.S. workers jobless.
No, to the most adamant auto-rescue opponents in the Senate, Detroit doesn't make cars people want. It's a dinosaur not worth preserving.
Could the opinions of these senators be colored by the fact that the foreign-owned plants of Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, BMW, Nissan and Volkswagen -- which compete with the Detroit Three -- are located in their states?
Nah, let's not even go there.
Let's just say that since logic hasn't worked, we should fall back on a simple moral argument.
If you see a fellow American is drowning, gasping for air, do you quiz him for a while about whether he's drunk or why he never learned to swim better? Or do you throw him a life buoy and ask questions later?
That, it seems to me, is where we are with America's car companies.
You have done nothing and failed them, senators.
So now it's up to President George W. Bush and Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson to, hopefully, rush in with emergency aid from the $700-billion Troubled Assets Relief Program.
They could still hold the Detroit Three's feet to the fire afterward, empowering a strong auto czar to bring all stakeholders together to forge business models for these companies that can withstand future shocks.
On Dec 14 09:54 AM macanic wrote:
> You go to hell, you are the one without a clue. As far as being
> industry friendly, you can't beat the Southern states.
>
> The people here know more about hard work than any place in this
> nation.
>
> At least we still know what the word PRIDE means, which is why we
> are getting all the industry now. Unions suck, always have. The end
> result is Detroits present state.
>
> The South is rising again, and the North is just pissed because they
> have pissed all their opportunities way by their greedy nature.
>
>
>
> On Dec 14 08:48 AM drummerboy wrote:
Let me tell you what's NOT going to happen. The transplants are NOT going to suddenly start building worse cars. Your investors and bankers are NOT going to loan you more money, you've already wiped them out.
That leaves the government and the rest of us taxpayers to keep you afloat for awhile. Okay, how long do you expect us to do that? For a few months, a year, or perhaps longer?
What you don't understand is the Senator from TN was only trying to HELP YOU! He was trying to get ALL the stakeholders to bite the bullet. He wasn't SINGLING OUT the UAW or looking to break your union, no matter what nonsense its leaders are telling you.
And how did your leaders repay him? They spit in his face. Well, that's fine, but if you think the Congress is going to whip up some miracle and give you a FREE RIDE forever, I've got news coming for you.
Americans aren't stupid. Many of them have already stopped buying your products. Now more of them will. If you're not REASONABLE and RESPONSIBLE yourselves when people are trying to help you, it's only a matter of time until you and your employers both go away.
A far as loyalty you must come and visit the Princeton Indiana toyo plant and count the thousands of ford and gm in there employee parking lot. I have given a number of x-plans so that these loyal toyo employees could get a shinny new ford mustang. I personally have always driven fords and have a perfect attendance record in the15 plus years i have worked for them. The same is true for my brother who has 14 years and my father who put in over 30 years. We have all been involved in the quality programs and have contributed to every joint program that the company and unions has put together. I guess must be a very smug but remember the next time bad weather hits it was the true Americans that came to the rescue
When Hurricane Katrina slammed into Louisiana and Alabama on Aug. 29, 2005, the automobile companies of Detroit did not harrumph that the gulf coast should have been better prepared.
They didn't sit back and wait for New Orleans to submit a detailed plan for future repair of the ruptured levees.
General Motors Corp., on Aug. 30, donated $400,000 to the American Red Cross 2005 Hurricane Relief Fund, pledged to match up to $250,000 more in employee contributions, and sent more than 150 vehicles to the stricken area for use in relief work.
Ford Motor Co. and the UAW quickly made a joint donation of $100,000 to the Red Cross. The Chrysler Group gave $150,000 to the Red Cross and $200,000 to local New Orleans charities. DaimlerChrysler Services chipped in $200,000 for the Red Cross and pledged to match employee donations up to $50,000.
The three Detroit auto companies together gave more than $18 million in cash and vehicles to the Katrina relief effort in the ensuing months. No strings attached.
The U.S. Senate’s most adamant naysayers about whether Detroit deserves rescue loans should have thought about that before now. It might have made Thursday’s futile wrangling over a compromise to get $14 billion in emergency rescue loans for GM and Chrysler a bit less tortuous.
U.S. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., for one, might have dialed down his earlier rhetoric.
Vitter said Wednesday that he plans to vote against the rescue because, in his words, it is "ass-backwards" to give money to the distressed companies before Congress sees more detailed survival plans.
Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., should think about Hurricane Katrina, too. He has threatened a filibuster against the bill, calling it "a bridge loan to nowhere" and stating that Detroit's automakers should undergo a fundamental restructuring before they ask Congress for money.
None of the logical arguments made by, or on behalf of, Detroit's auto industry seem to resonate with certain congressional critics.
Not the fact that GM, Ford and Chrysler have slashed billions of dollars in costs. Not the fact that they have the nation's top-selling pickups and minivans. Not the fact that they have lots of high-mileage vehicles and more on the way. Not the fact an auto company bankruptcy would have a horrible ripple effect, wiping out scores of suppliers and making hundreds of thousands more U.S. workers jobless.
No, to the most adamant auto-rescue opponents in the Senate, Detroit doesn't make cars people want. It's a dinosaur not worth preserving.
Could the opinions of these senators be colored by the fact that the foreign-owned plants of Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, BMW, Nissan and Volkswagen -- which compete with the Detroit Three -- are located in their states?
Nah, let's not even go there.
Let's just say that since logic hasn't worked, we should fall back on a simple moral argument.
If you see a fellow American is drowning, gasping for air, do you quiz him for a while about whether he's drunk or why he never learned to swim better? Or do you throw him a life buoy and ask questions later?
That, it seems to me, is where we are with America's car companies.
You have done nothing and failed them, senators.
So now it's up to President George W. Bush and Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson to, hopefully, rush in with emergency aid from the $700-billion Troubled Assets Relief Program.
They could still hold the Detroit Three's feet to the fire afterward, empowering a strong auto czar to bring all stakeholders together to forge business models for these companies that can withstand future shocks.
On Dec 14 08:09 AM ABetterPlace wrote:
> Yes Mark, you are on the money with the analysis. There is another
> factor involved however, that most will not talk about and that is
> company loyalty.
>
> As we have seen on TV a few times in the last 20 years or so, programs
> that have shown the pride and company loyalty that Asian workers
> embrace. A dedication by workers to do a good job and create a successful
> company. This idea has been integrated, to a point, into the American
> plants of these companies. These companies try to create a team approach
> in their business, and do.
>
> To the dismay of American producers that have also tried this approach
> over the past years, it does not work. The labor unions will not
> allow it to work.
> Many labor unions look at the company as "the enemy we must fight
> daily to obtain what we want from them". Company loyalty, forget
> it.
>
> I am convinced that unless the "Big Three" are able to get more control
> over their workforce, they are doomed to failure.
But the question I want to know is this. Where are the white collar wages and legacy costs at? No one mentions them. It's only labor costs you people like to mention. What, they aren't added into the cost of a car? Their legacy costs aren't an issue? This is not an attempt to hammer white collar workers. The work that 3 of them did 10 years ago is now preformed by 1. It's just that we see that labor wages added to the cost of the car but never the white collar costs. Or is it that they are added into those labor costs but no one wants to spearate them just to drive home your opinion of what the union's cost burden is to automaking.
On Dec 14 07:40 AM jstratt wrote:
> Thank you for your analysis!
>
> If we compare GM and Toyota, who both made almost exactly the same
> number of cars last year, we find that Toyota made 28 Bil and GM
> lost 17 Bil, if I remember correctly. I would like to understand
> the full 45 Billion difference in results.
>
> Personally I am for what is in our nations best interest. That means
> bankruptcy with an appropriate haircut for all. The crazy thing is
> that would be in the best interest of the workers as well.
>
> However as long as feeding on free money at the government trough
> is available, why would any party want to pursue any other option.
>
I am sorry. I didn't get which GM facility you work at? I know at my facility "worker loyalty' is not an issue. And then again, maybe you are just expressing an opinion without any first hand basis.
On Dec 14 08:09 AM ABetterPlace wrote:
> Yes Mark, you are on the money with the analysis. There is another
> factor involved however, that most will not talk about and that is
> company loyalty.
>
> As we have seen on TV a few times in the last 20 years or so, programs
> that have shown the pride and company loyalty that Asian workers
> embrace. A dedication by workers to do a good job and create a successful
> company. This idea has been integrated, to a point, into the American
> plants of these companies. These companies try to create a team approach
> in their business, and do.
>
> To the dismay of American producers that have also tried this approach
> over the past years, it does not work. The labor unions will not
> allow it to work.
> Many labor unions look at the company as "the enemy we must fight
> daily to obtain what we want from them". Company loyalty, forget
> it.
>
> I am convinced that unless the "Big Three" are able to get more control
> over their workforce, they are doomed to failure.
People in the South are better workers--they are not socialists.
Remeber all the flooding and winds form the hurricanes
It was the north that rose again to come to the aid of these victims
here are the facts and published in the detroit frees press
When Hurricane Katrina slammed into Louisiana and Alabama on Aug. 29, 2005, the automobile companies of Detroit did not harrumph that the gulf coast should have been better prepared.
They didn't sit back and wait for New Orleans to submit a detailed plan for future repair of the ruptured levees.
General Motors Corp., on Aug. 30, donated $400,000 to the American Red Cross 2005 Hurricane Relief Fund, pledged to match up to $250,000 more in employee contributions, and sent more than 150 vehicles to the stricken area for use in relief work.
Ford Motor Co. and the UAW quickly made a joint donation of $100,000 to the Red Cross. The Chrysler Group gave $150,000 to the Red Cross and $200,000 to local New Orleans charities. DaimlerChrysler Services chipped in $200,000 for the Red Cross and pledged to match employee donations up to $50,000.
The three Detroit auto companies together gave more than $18 million in cash and vehicles to the Katrina relief effort in the ensuing months. No strings attached.
The U.S. Senate’s most adamant naysayers about whether Detroit deserves rescue loans should have thought about that before now. It might have made Thursday’s futile wrangling over a compromise to get $14 billion in emergency rescue loans for GM and Chrysler a bit less tortuous.
U.S. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., for one, might have dialed down his earlier rhetoric.
Vitter said Wednesday that he plans to vote against the rescue because, in his words, it is "ass-backwards" to give money to the distressed companies before Congress sees more detailed survival plans.
Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., should think about Hurricane Katrina, too. He has threatened a filibuster against the bill, calling it "a bridge loan to nowhere" and stating that Detroit's automakers should undergo a fundamental restructuring before they ask Congress for money.
None of the logical arguments made by, or on behalf of, Detroit's auto industry seem to resonate with certain congressional critics.
Not the fact that GM, Ford and Chrysler have slashed billions of dollars in costs. Not the fact that they have the nation's top-selling pickups and minivans. Not the fact that they have lots of high-mileage vehicles and more on the way. Not the fact an auto company bankruptcy would have a horrible ripple effect, wiping out scores of suppliers and making hundreds of thousands more U.S. workers jobless.
No, to the most adamant auto-rescue opponents in the Senate, Detroit doesn't make cars people want. It's a dinosaur not worth preserving.
Could the opinions of these senators be colored by the fact that the foreign-owned plants of Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, BMW, Nissan and Volkswagen -- which compete with the Detroit Three -- are located in their states?
Nah, let's not even go there.
Let's just say that since logic hasn't worked, we should fall back on a simple moral argument.
If you see a fellow American is drowning, gasping for air, do you quiz him for a while about whether he's drunk or why he never learned to swim better? Or do you throw him a life buoy and ask questions later?
That, it seems to me, is where we are with America's car companies.
You have done nothing and failed them, senators.
So now it's up to President George W. Bush and Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson to, hopefully, rush in with emergency aid from the $700-billion Troubled Assets Relief Program.
They could still hold the Detroit Three's feet to the fire afterward, empowering a strong auto czar to bring all stakeholders together to forge business models for these companies that can withstand future shocks.
Don't forget all the aid we sent to New York after 9-11
On Dec 14 08:48 AM drummerboy wrote:
> what your analysis fails to mention the reason why these foreign
> companies always seek to be in the southern states of this country
> is because labor, and the cost of living is so much cheaper.look
> at the history in this country, and the old adage, the south is gonna
> do it again. you may still be in the dark ages with the mentality
> that labor is cheap, or should be cheap,hence the reason why the
> civil war was fought. show me one of these foreign car companies
> that establish themselves in a geographical area that is anywhere
> north kentucky. you won't! these car companies that come to this
> country know more about history and demographics in order to get
> the most bang for their buck. remember,it's the south who have NEVER
> had respect for the labor force, chaingangs,civil war,slave labor.
> come one folks, he who blames labor for any type of ruination in
> this country is a fool.blame a working man for working.thats insane.whats
> even more insane is the notion that its a union's fault. wake up
> america. he who has never belonged, or has never gotten their finger
> nails dirty will never understand.time to keep the eye on the real
> ball is now. southern politicians who want to protect the notion
> that labor is only worth 20k a yr., lawyers and insurance companies
> as well. get a clue
Dont forget a
When Hurricane Katrina slammed into Louisiana and Alabama on Aug. 29, 2005, the automobile companies of Detroit did not harrumph that the gulf coast should have been better prepared.
They didn't sit back and wait for New Orleans to submit a detailed plan for future repair of the ruptured levees.
General Motors Corp., on Aug. 30, donated $400,000 to the American Red Cross 2005 Hurricane Relief Fund, pledged to match up to $250,000 more in employee contributions, and sent more than 150 vehicles to the stricken area for use in relief work.
Ford Motor Co. and the UAW quickly made a joint donation of $100,000 to the Red Cross. The Chrysler Group gave $150,000 to the Red Cross and $200,000 to local New Orleans charities. DaimlerChrysler Services chipped in $200,000 for the Red Cross and pledged to match employee donations up to $50,000.
The three Detroit auto companies together gave more than $18 million in cash and vehicles to the Katrina relief effort in the ensuing months. No strings attached.
The U.S. Senate’s most adamant naysayers about whether Detroit deserves rescue loans should have thought about that before now. It might have made Thursday’s futile wrangling over a compromise to get $14 billion in emergency rescue loans for GM and Chrysler a bit less tortuous.
U.S. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., for one, might have dialed down his earlier rhetoric.
Vitter said Wednesday that he plans to vote against the rescue because, in his words, it is "ass-backwards" to give money to the distressed companies before Congress sees more detailed survival plans.
Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., should think about Hurricane Katrina, too. He has threatened a filibuster against the bill, calling it "a bridge loan to nowhere" and stating that Detroit's automakers should undergo a fundamental restructuring before they ask Congress for money.
None of the logical arguments made by, or on behalf of, Detroit's auto industry seem to resonate with certain congressional critics.
Not the fact that GM, Ford and Chrysler have slashed billions of dollars in costs. Not the fact that they have the nation's top-selling pickups and minivans. Not the fact that they have lots of high-mileage vehicles and more on the way. Not the fact an auto company bankruptcy would have a horrible ripple effect, wiping out scores of suppliers and making hundreds of thousands more U.S. workers jobless.
No, to the most adamant auto-rescue opponents in the Senate, Detroit doesn't make cars people want. It's a dinosaur not worth preserving.
Could the opinions of these senators be colored by the fact that the foreign-owned plants of Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, BMW, Nissan and Volkswagen -- which compete with the Detroit Three -- are located in their states?
Nah, let's not even go there.
Let's just say that since logic hasn't worked, we should fall back on a simple moral argument.
If you see a fellow American is drowning, gasping for air, do you quiz him for a while about whether he's drunk or why he never learned to swim better? Or do you throw him a life buoy and ask questions later?
That, it seems to me, is where we are with America's car companies.
You have done nothing and failed them, senators.
So now it's up to President George W. Bush and Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson to, hopefully, rush in with emergency aid from the $700-billion Troubled Assets Relief Program.
They could still hold the Detroit Three's feet to the fire afterward, empowering a strong auto czar to bring all stakeholders together to forge business models for these companies that can withstand future shocks.
On Dec 14 11:18 AM jod wrote:
> If Americans supported their own companies that cost disadvantage
> would be eaten up by a larger market share from our companies. Does
> Japan offer the Big 3 the ability to produce cars in Japan for less
> than it cost them to make them their. Their legacy cost in Japan
> are very high. Japans citizens support their own companies and don't
> buy foreign cars. Their whole society subverts foreign competition
> in many ways. It doesn't have websites promoting foreign cars and
> subverting their own listed under the Toyota and Honda yahoo japan
> web pages now do they. I can't even go to Yahoo Japan for some reason.
> I figured I'd use google translate and see the difference. Can't
> even go there.
Bring them back to reality. As for the poster who posted about grandpa and dad... all jobs aren't without their hazards. The auto industry isn't an exception. If they wanted a safe "cushy" job they should have gone into something in the office... otherwise, they like millions of others everyday knew the risks. And whining about corporate??? Is there an employee who doesn't? Their stress is no different to everyone elses. What is different is they are paid more than double what others are paid and still whine. GET OVER IT!! If you don't like the job find a different on. Oh wait.... they can't their too consumed by their own greed to try life in the real world.
Of course when the companies fold... then you may find a job like the rest of us at some plant working for $10/hr... or worse.... federal min wage!!!
On Dec 14 09:13 AM oilcan821 wrote:
> i think these so-called auto experts are the root of the problem!
> look at cunsumer reports-they only give imports an a+ rating. we
> can produce the best cars in the world, but these "experts" convince
> the public our cars are junk! gm and toyota are in nummi in california,
> make a comparable car with only a grille and other cosmetics, and
> the toyota gets the good buy rating! this gentleman who wrote this
> should spend a day in a nice hot gm foundry, or a component plant!
> all these guys tell about is the 1% of deadbeat employees, not the
> other 99% who are job-conscious! gm needs to get by for a year, then
> when they've purged the older workforce, their hourly employees will
> only make $14-16.00 with no pension, or insurance when they retire!
> as a proud uaw-gm retiree, i earned my pension and benefits, through
> all the miserable hot work i tolerated to get these gains! i wasn't
> sitting in a nice air-conditioned office, as these "experts were,
> i was in a bad environment making "world class" castings for gm,
> chrysler,detroit diesel and more! remember that the great reagan
> declared this country "a service economy", and this is what we have
> left of the greatest manufacturing country in the world!
On Dec 14 11:36 AM Ames Tiedeman wrote:
> The UAW must be broken. CAT broke the union in the early 1990's and
> they then went on to beat back the Japanese. It is a disgrace that
> a UAW worker earns not 55, but 71 an hour. Wake up. This is auto
> assembly, not brain surgery.
But the UAW's not about to do that, of course. They're too busy playing this inane game of chicken. So when there are no presents under your tree come Christmas morning, don't blame the Senators. You can call your union bosses and ask them how their Christmas is going instead.
Eat, Sleep!!!!. As For insurance " If possible in a warm dry place "
WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE?
DOES ANYONE honestly believe that the cost-cutting should come from the blue collar workforce???
On Dec 14 09:48 AM paulk8756 wrote:
> Drummer,
>
> Speaking of clues, you might get a couple yourself if you'd take
> the time to actually read this post and the comments here and think
> about them some. No one's out to get you!
>
> America's not an island anymore, despite how we might like it to
> be. Millions of Americans have lost their jobs to worldwide competition
> already, and it's not going away barring another World War or some
> other similar catastrophe.
>
> The point is how we can best deal with the situation we now find
> ourselves in, and what we all need to do to confront this new reality.
> Sure, it would be great if we could all get paid $55 an hour for
> our labor, but I believe the reality is you're in the wrong line
> of work to do that presently.
>
> If you can live with $45 an hour now for what you do, it is my opinion
> you'd find alot more of your fellow Americans who'd support your
> efforts.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
You're right about the general disparity between N/S wages, but it's not a hard and fast rule. I was recruited to work in the South (Nawlins) actually, from Washington, DC.
I also remember working for a buck an hour growing up in PA. Imagine my delight when I got up to $2. I thought I was on top of the world.
But times are different now. As we make more, prices rise throughout our local (wherever it is) economy. And we're competing with labor worldwide now, not just across our state or country.
When I was young I was represented by unions, too. I didn't have a say in the matter. I recall they were good a taking my money, but they were never around when I asked them to help me.
Today I know carpenters who make $50 an hour and are worth it, and others unemployed who'd be ready to work for $20. To tell you the truth, that seems fairer to me than having someone else decide what everyone's going to make beforehand.
The worst un-American part is that to get Toyota, Honda, BMW, and other companies to build in the south, not only were ensured low non-union wayes, but THE SENATORS GAVE THESE FOREIGN AUTO COMPANIES U.S. TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO SUBSIDIZE BUILDING, CAPITAL AND OTHER RELOCATION COSTS BUILD HERE. What hypocrites, no subsidies for US makers, but I have to pay FOREIGN companies to come in and under cut American companies. Not just hypocrites, but treasionous putting other countries in front of our own.
As far as wages, don't forget to compare top management wages between U.S. companies and foreign ones. If you outraged at the disadvantage of high wages, remember the top CEOs in the US make 17 times more than CEOs in Eurpore on average and 22 times more than Japan's CEOs on average. Little more than the $10 difference among workers. Where's the screams for their immediate wage concessions for management, where the decisions that led to our situation were made?
On Dec 14 11:39 AM Colleen wrote:
> Why not bring their wages back to reality. $55 is ourageous. Sure
> they face disabiling conditions, give them disability insurance.
> Let them choose the level and let them pay half the cost. My husband
> faces disabiling conditions ranging from deafness from loud machinery,
> limb removal, or death. He pays for his disability insurance and
> doesn't even make $15.00/hr. People working the auto industry aren't
> privledged. You make your pay by how long you've been with a company,
> but $55 is crazy. $20/$25/ hr is good. What would that company do
> with an extra $30/hr for each of their 70,000 employees? If they
> all work an 8 hour day, in one day that's a savings of $16,800,000.
> Almost 17million dollars!!!!
>
> Bring them back to reality. As for the poster who posted about grandpa
> and dad... all jobs aren't without their hazards. The auto industry
> isn't an exception. If they wanted a safe "cushy" job they should
> have gone into something in the office... otherwise, they like millions
> of others everyday knew the risks. And whining about corporate???
> Is there an employee who doesn't? Their stress is no different to
> everyone elses. What is different is they are paid more than double
> what others are paid and still whine. GET OVER IT!! If you don't
> like the job find a different on. Oh wait.... they can't their too
> consumed by their own greed to try life in the real world.
>
> Of course when the companies fold... then you may find a job like
> the rest of us at some plant working for $10/hr... or worse.... federal
> min wage!!!
Senate seat for sale
December 14, 2008
A “No” vote on the loan package for Detroit’s Big Three was a chance for the GOP senators from the South who led the charge against the legislation to kill two birds with one stone. Not only could they strike a blow to the United Autoworkers, a traditional adversary, but they could also advance the economic interests of their own states. Unfortunately, these senators voted against the economic interests of their own country.
Foreign automakers have spent billions building plants in the states these senators represent. Should America’s automakers go down for the count, Americans would still need cars and foreign automakers would step in and spend additional billions building more plants in, you guessed it, the states of these very same GOP senators.
Christopher Hayes of The Nation magazine was interviewed on MSNBC’s Countdown with Keith Olbermann show last week and pointed out what he called “the worst-kept secret in Washington.” Hayes was referring to the glaring double standard that these Southern senators, Alabama’s Senator Richard Shelby in particular, have displayed.
“They’ve been throwing taxpayer dollars at Toyota for years in Alabama and no one raises a stink about that” Hayes said. In fact, as Olbermann noted, Alabama alone has given more in tax subsides per job to foreign automakers than Detroit was asking for in the bailout plan to save jobs at American companies.
The Big Three haven’t been competing against Toyota and Honda and Nissan; they’ve been competing against Japan. Unlike America, that nation actually has an industrial policy. While our government talked about the virtues of free trade, the Japanese government worked hand in glove with their automakers to help make them the world leaders.
Japan is aggressively trying to do with autos what they did with consumer electronics – undercut American manufacturers, drive them out of business and capture the American market. Japan heavily subsidizes their automakers, they fund their research, they manipulate their currency, and they erect trade barriers that make it virtually impossible for American automakers to export to their country. Think the fact that Pacific Rim nations buy up 80-percent of our government debt has something to do with keeping our government from enacting policies to level the playing field? The bank that holds your mortgage doesn't dance to your tune, you dance to the tune of the bank that holds your mortgage.
I don’t care what you’re manufacturing or if your CEO is Albert Einstein, if you are competing against a country that actually has universal health care, while you’re forced to add $1,200 to $1,500 to the cost to every unit you manufacture to cover your employees’ health care, you’re not going to be competitive. If your country doesn’t rebate the value added tax when you export your product while your competitor’s country does, not only will you be priced out of their market, your foreign competitor’s government subsidy will put them at a tremendous price advantage on your home turf.
Now, thanks to the likes of Senator Shelby, the Big Three are not only competing against Japan, they’re also forced to compete against their very own government.
The fact that nothing is made in America anymore is a familiar lament of Americans. But here’s what Americans don’t seem to get: what little is still being manufactured in America is increasingly being made in foreign-owned plants of foreign-owned companies.
I realize that there is a long history of sharecropping in the South, but I see no advantage to we Americans becoming sharecroppers in our own country.
On Dec 14 09:54 AM macanic wrote:
> You go to hell, you are the one without a clue. As far as being
> industry friendly, you can't beat the Southern states.
>
> The people here know more about hard work than any place in this
> nation.
>
> At least we still know what the word PRIDE means, which is why we
> are getting all the industry now. Unions suck, always have. The end
> result is Detroits present state.
>
> The South is rising again, and the North is just pissed because they
> have pissed all their opportunities way by their greedy nature.
>
>
>
> On Dec 14 08:48 AM drummerboy wrote:
December 14, 2008
A “No” vote on the loan package for Detroit’s Big Three was a chance for the GOP senators from the South who led the charge against the legislation to kill two birds with one stone. Not only could they strike a blow to the United Autoworkers, a traditional adversary, but they could also advance the economic interests of their own states. Unfortunately, these senators voted against the economic interests of their own country.
Foreign automakers have spent billions building plants in the states these senators represent. Should America’s automakers go down for the count, Americans would still need cars and foreign automakers would step in and spend additional billions building more plants in, you guessed it, the states of these very same GOP senators.
Christopher Hayes of The Nation magazine was interviewed on MSNBC’s Countdown with Keith Olbermann show last week and pointed out what he called “the worst-kept secret in Washington.” Hayes was referring to the glaring double standard that these Southern senators, Alabama’s Senator Richard Shelby in particular, have displayed.
“They’ve been throwing taxpayer dollars at Toyota for years in Alabama and no one raises a stink about that” Hayes said. In fact, as Olbermann noted, Alabama alone has given more in tax subsides per job to foreign automakers than Detroit was asking for in the bailout plan to save jobs at American companies.
The Big Three haven’t been competing against Toyota and Honda and Nissan; they’ve been competing against Japan. Unlike America, that nation actually has an industrial policy. While our government talked about the virtues of free trade, the Japanese government worked hand in glove with their automakers to help make them the world leaders.
Japan is aggressively trying to do with autos what they did with consumer electronics – undercut American manufacturers, drive them out of business and capture the American market. Japan heavily subsidizes their automakers, they fund their research, they manipulate their currency, and they erect trade barriers that make it virtually impossible for American automakers to export to their country. Think the fact that Pacific Rim nations buy up 80-percent of our government debt has something to do with keeping our government from enacting policies to level the playing field? The bank that holds your mortgage doesn't dance to your tune, you dance to the tune of the bank that holds your mortgage.
I don’t care what you’re manufacturing or if your CEO is Albert Einstein, if you are competing against a country that actually has universal health care, while you’re forced to add $1,200 to $1,500 to the cost to every unit you manufacture to cover your employees’ health care, you’re not going to be competitive. If your country doesn’t rebate the value added tax when you export your product while your competitor’s country does, not only will you be priced out of their market, your foreign competitor’s government subsidy will put them at a tremendous price advantage on your home turf.
Now, thanks to the likes of Senator Shelby, the Big Three are not only competing against Japan, they’re also forced to compete against their very own government.
The fact that nothing is made in America anymore is a familiar lament of Americans. But here’s what Americans don’t seem to get: what little is still being manufactured in America is increasingly being made in foreign-owned plants of foreign-owned companies.
I realize that there is a long history of sharecropping in the South, but I see no advantage to we Americans becoming sharecroppers in our own country.
On Dec 14 12:48 PM paulk8756 wrote:
> Guess what, guys? Your deal's not over yet, it's still on the table!
> All you need do is have the UAW call Sens. Corker and Reid and tell
> them they'll go along with the other stakeholders and take a reasonable
> haircut. The Senate would reconvene on Monday.
>
> But the UAW's not about to do that, of course. They're too busy
> playing this inane game of chicken. So when there are no presents
> under your tree come Christmas morning, don't blame the Senators.
> You can call your union bosses and ask them how their Christmas is
> going instead.
>
Senate seat for sale
December 14, 2008
A “No” vote on the loan package for Detroit’s Big Three was a chance for the GOP senators from the South who led the charge against the legislation to kill two birds with one stone. Not only could they strike a blow to the United Autoworkers, a traditional adversary, but they could also advance the economic interests of their own states. Unfortunately, these senators voted against the economic interests of their own country.
Foreign automakers have spent billions building plants in the states these senators represent. Should America’s automakers go down for the count, Americans would still need cars and foreign automakers would step in and spend additional billions building more plants in, you guessed it, the states of these very same GOP senators.
Christopher Hayes of The Nation magazine was interviewed on MSNBC’s Countdown with Keith Olbermann show last week and pointed out what he called “the worst-kept secret in Washington.” Hayes was referring to the glaring double standard that these Southern senators, Alabama’s Senator Richard Shelby in particular, have displayed.
“They’ve been throwing taxpayer dollars at Toyota for years in Alabama and no one raises a stink about that” Hayes said. In fact, as Olbermann noted, Alabama alone has given more in tax subsides per job to foreign automakers than Detroit was asking for in the bailout plan to save jobs at American companies.
The Big Three haven’t been competing against Toyota and Honda and Nissan; they’ve been competing against Japan. Unlike America, that nation actually has an industrial policy. While our government talked about the virtues of free trade, the Japanese government worked hand in glove with their automakers to help make them the world leaders.
Japan is aggressively trying to do with autos what they did with consumer electronics – undercut American manufacturers, drive them out of business and capture the American market. Japan heavily subsidizes their automakers, they fund their research, they manipulate their currency, and they erect trade barriers that make it virtually impossible for American automakers to export to their country. Think the fact that Pacific Rim nations buy up 80-percent of our government debt has something to do with keeping our government from enacting policies to level the playing field? The bank that holds your mortgage doesn't dance to your tune, you dance to the tune of the bank that holds your mortgage.
I don’t care what you’re manufacturing or if your CEO is Albert Einstein, if you are competing against a country that actually has universal health care, while you’re forced to add $1,200 to $1,500 to the cost to every unit you manufacture to cover your employees’ health care, you’re not going to be competitive. If your country doesn’t rebate the value added tax when you export your product while your competitor’s country does, not only will you be priced out of their market, your foreign competitor’s government subsidy will put them at a tremendous price advantage on your home turf.
Now, thanks to the likes of Senator Shelby, the Big Three are not only competing against Japan, they’re also forced to compete against their very own government.
The fact that nothing is made in America anymore is a familiar lament of Americans. But here’s what Americans don’t seem to get: what little is still being manufactured in America is increasingly being made in foreign-owned plants of foreign-owned companies.
I realize that there is a long history of sharecropping in the South, but I see no advantage to we Americans becoming sharecroppers in our own country.
On Dec 14 11:36 AM here you go genius wrote:
> They did not send a thing to help out New York after 9-11or the south
> after all the storms check the facts I have the facts that were in
> the free press
> When Hurricane Katrina slammed into Louisiana and Alabama on Aug.
> 29, 2005, the automobile companies of Detroit did not harrumph that
> the gulf coast should have been better prepared.
>
> They didn't sit back and wait for New Orleans to submit a detailed
> plan for future repair of the ruptured levees.
>
> General Motors Corp., on Aug. 30, donated $400,000 to the American
> Red Cross 2005 Hurricane Relief Fund, pledged to match up to $250,000
> more in employee contributions, and sent more than 150 vehicles to
> the stricken area for use in relief work.
>
> Ford Motor Co. and the UAW quickly made a joint donation of $100,000
> to the Red Cross. The Chrysler Group gave $150,000 to the Red Cross
> and $200,000 to local New Orleans charities. DaimlerChrysler Services
> chipped in $200,000 for the Red Cross and pledged to match employee
> donations up to $50,000.
>
> The three Detroit auto companies together gave more than $18 million
> in cash and vehicles to the Katrina relief effort in the ensuing
> months. No strings attached.
>
> The U.S. Senate’s most adamant naysayers about whether Detroit deserves
> rescue loans should have thought about that before now. It might
> have made Thursday’s futile wrangling over a compromise to get $14
> billion in emergency rescue loans for GM and Chrysler a bit less
> tortuous.
>
> U.S. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., for one, might have dialed down his
> earlier rhetoric.
>
> Vitter said Wednesday that he plans to vote against the rescue because,
> in his words, it is "ass-backwards&... to give money to the
> distressed companies before Congress sees more detailed survival
> plans.
>
> Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., should think about Hurricane Katrina,
> too. He has threatened a filibuster against the bill, calling it
> "a bridge loan to nowhere" and stating that Detroit's automakers
> should undergo a fundamental restructuring before they ask Congress
> for money.
>
> None of the logical arguments made by, or on behalf of, Detroit's
> auto industry seem to resonate with certain congressional critics.
>
>
> Not the fact that GM, Ford and Chrysler have slashed billions of
> dollars in costs. Not the fact that they have the nation's top-selling
> pickups and minivans. Not the fact that they have lots of high-mileage
> vehicles and more on the way. Not the fact an auto company bankruptcy
> would have a horrible ripple effect, wiping out scores of suppliers
> and making hundreds of thousands more U.S. workers jobless.
>
> No, to the most adamant auto-rescue opponents in the Senate, Detroit
> doesn't make cars people want. It's a dinosaur not worth preserving.
>
>
> Could the opinions of these senators be colored by the fact that
> the foreign-owned plants of Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, BMW, Nissan
> and Volkswagen -- which compete with the Detroit Three -- are located
> in their states?
>
> Nah, let's not even go there.
>
> Let's just say that since logic hasn't worked, we should fall back
> on a simple moral argument.
>
> If you see a fellow American is drowning, gasping for air, do you
> quiz him for a while about whether he's drunk or why he never learned
> to swim better? Or do you throw him a life buoy and ask questions
> later?
>
> That, it seems to me, is where we are with America's car companies.
>
>
> You have done nothing and failed them, senators.
>
> So now it's up to President George W. Bush and Treasury Secretary
> Hank Paulson to, hopefully, rush in with emergency aid from the $700-billion
> Troubled Assets Relief Program.
>
> They could still hold the Detroit Three's feet to the fire afterward,
> empowering a strong auto czar to bring all stakeholders together
> to forge business models for these companies that can withstand future
> shocks.
>
> On Dec 14 11:18 AM jod wrote:
Senate seat for sale
December 14, 2008
A “No” vote on the loan package for Detroit’s Big Three was a chance for the GOP senators from the South who led the charge against the legislation to kill two birds with one stone. Not only could they strike a blow to the United Autoworkers, a traditional adversary, but they could also advance the economic interests of their own states. Unfortunately, these senators voted against the economic interests of their own country.
Foreign automakers have spent billions building plants in the states these senators represent. Should America’s automakers go down for the count, Americans would still need cars and foreign automakers would step in and spend additional billions building more plants in, you guessed it, the states of these very same GOP senators.
Christopher Hayes of The Nation magazine was interviewed on MSNBC’s Countdown with Keith Olbermann show last week and pointed out what he called “the worst-kept secret in Washington.” Hayes was referring to the glaring double standard that these Southern senators, Alabama’s Senator Richard Shelby in particular, have displayed.
“They’ve been throwing taxpayer dollars at Toyota for years in Alabama and no one raises a stink about that” Hayes said. In fact, as Olbermann noted, Alabama alone has given more in tax subsides per job to foreign automakers than Detroit was asking for in the bailout plan to save jobs at American companies.
The Big Three haven’t been competing against Toyota and Honda and Nissan; they’ve been competing against Japan. Unlike America, that nation actually has an industrial policy. While our government talked about the virtues of free trade, the Japanese government worked hand in glove with their automakers to help make them the world leaders.
Japan is aggressively trying to do with autos what they did with consumer electronics – undercut American manufacturers, drive them out of business and capture the American market. Japan heavily subsidizes their automakers, they fund their research, they manipulate their currency, and they erect trade barriers that make it virtually impossible for American automakers to export to their country. Think the fact that Pacific Rim nations buy up 80-percent of our government debt has something to do with keeping our government from enacting policies to level the playing field? The bank that holds your mortgage doesn't dance to your tune, you dance to the tune of the bank that holds your mortgage.
I don’t care what you’re manufacturing or if your CEO is Albert Einstein, if you are competing against a country that actually has universal health care, while you’re forced to add $1,200 to $1,500 to the cost to every unit you manufacture to cover your employees’ health care, you’re not going to be competitive. If your country doesn’t rebate the value added tax when you export your product while your competitor’s country does, not only will you be priced out of their market, your foreign competitor’s government subsidy will put them at a tremendous price advantage on your home turf.
Now, thanks to the likes of Senator Shelby, the Big Three are not only competing against Japan, they’re also forced to compete against their very own government.
The fact that nothing is made in America anymore is a familiar lament of Americans. But here’s what Americans don’t seem to get: what little is still being manufactured in America is increasingly being made in foreign-owned plants of foreign-owned companies.
I realize that there is a long history of sharecropping in the South, but I see no advantage to we Americans becoming sharecroppers in our own country.
On Dec 14 11:05 AM paulk8756 wrote:
> So, let me to ask you Detroiters, how would you fix this now? With
> or without UAW wage concessions, what would YOU do?
>
> Let me tell you what's NOT going to happen. The transplants are
> NOT going to suddenly start building worse cars. Your investors
> and bankers are NOT going to loan you more money, you've already
> wiped them out.
>
> That leaves the government and the rest of us taxpayers to keep you
> afloat for awhile. Okay, how long do you expect us to do that?
> For a few months, a year, or perhaps longer?
>
> What you don't understand is the Senator from TN was only trying
> to HELP YOU! He was trying to get ALL the stakeholders to bite the
> bullet. He wasn't SINGLING OUT the UAW or looking to break your union,
> no matter what nonsense its leaders are telling you.
>
> And how did your leaders repay him? They spit in his face. Well,
> that's fine, but if you think the Congress is going to whip up some
> miracle and give you a FREE RIDE forever, I've got news coming for
> you.
>
> Americans aren't stupid. Many of them have already stopped buying
> your products. Now more of them will. If you're not REASONABLE
> and RESPONSIBLE yourselves when people are trying to help you, it's
> only a matter of time until you and your employers both go away.
>
>
>
>
>
>
UAW supporters like to cite all the concessions made in recent years, and they are significant. What really matters though, as far as the survival of the Detroit 3, is the total labor-related cost to produce a vehicle. If this labor cost is out of line, they will eventually fail.
Everyone agrees that there is a large (~$1,500/ vehicle) legacy cost disadvantage. This suggests that in order to be "competitive", UAW workers needs to make up this difference in other ways, such as being "more productive" (fewer man-hours to produce the vehicle), or lower cost per man-hour (work for lower wages, and/or fewer benefits).
The UAW likes to say they are the most productive workers in the world. This doesn’t sound quite right when you consider that there are thousands of elected UAW local committee members, paid by the Big 3, that do nothing but make life difficult for management. Include the other “appointed” UAW jobs, restrictive work rules like “full utilization”, lines of demarcation, Secured Employment Level, etc., and I must conclude that the only way the UAW might be more productive is that their high cost has driven the Big 3 to install a higher level of (costly) equipment automation (e.g. robots). Having visited several foreign countries to observe other car company operations, I can assure you that it is not because the UAW works “harder”. My personal opinion is this " most productive" label is a myth propagated by the union.
UAW wages are a few dollars per hour higher than typical transplant wages. The benefits are substantially higher, primarily due to the gold-plated health care and generous pensions. What other industry allows full pensions at 43 years of age? Other benefits, like the $200/yr to spend in the company store for UAW logo apparel are mainly symbolic, like private jets and Executive bonuses. One significant cost, not well understood, is unemployment benefits. Mr. Gettelfinger says he will consider “suspending” the JOBS bank. (85% of wages for doing nothing) He doesn't mention SUB (Supplemental Unemployment Benefit) pay. (70% of wages for doing nothing). Laid off UAW workers get ~$20/hr for doing nothing. I doubt too may American Taxpayers are aware of that deal!
Salaried employees have made some concessions too. We just don’t get a chance to vote on them. We pay a substantial portion of our health care cost, and it continues to increase, as the company “froze” their contribution a while back. When we reach age 65 we lose our health care and go must onto Medicare in exchange for $300/month additional in our pension check. There is no 401(k) matching, and there will be no raise for salaried workers in 2009. We don’t get cost of living increases or lump sum payment in our pension, like the UAW does. Many salaried jobs are now performed by contract employees, or are outsourced to the lowest bidder, worldwide. For example, a lot of CAD work is now done in India. Both of these money saving practices are vehemently resisted by the UAW when it comes to "their" work. (Yes, the UAW "owns" their jobs...)
The UAW claims that their wages will become competitive in 2011 due to the influx of $14/hr workers during the coming years. Each of these job openings will require a high paid worker to retire, presumable after receiving a bribe in the range of $35,000 to $140,000 if the past is any guide to the future. What I find puzzling is that the 2007 contract, which introduced this new two-tiered wage structure, converted 2,800 temporary GM workers, making $14/hr, into high paid workers. Was this necessary to get the union workers to accept the contract? If so, how do they expect to get the 2011 contract approved, when there will supposedly be a bunch of $14/hr people voting on it.
Senator Corker is on the right track, but even his proposal will not achieve competitive labor cost for the Big 3. He said he was “within three words” of making a deal. Unfortunately, I suspect the there words were “Go *&~! Yourself” from the lips of Ron Gettelfinger. Mr. Gettelfinger refuses to promise competitive wages in 2009 because he knows that he can’t get the rank and file to accept concessions that large. These workers are too close to retirement. They probably think they can get a nice pension from the FPGC if GM goes bankrupt. They prefer letting GM go bankrupt, rather than take the $10/hr pay cut that would be necessary to make their labor cost truly competitive. They should check out the rules of the FPGC; they would find that if they are too young when their company goes bankrupt, they will get very little.
On Dec 14 09:01 PM User 319560 wrote:
> First of all the union workers do not get paid $55 an hour. $55 is
> what it costs to employ them when you add up wages, health insurance,etc.
> Just because someone makes $15/hr doesn't mean it only costs the
> employer $15/hr so this is not confined to auto workers. Second,
> I would like to know the "hourly" cost to employ the white collar
> employees, and how much they add to the final price of a car. Everyone
> wants to blame the UAW for the failed "rescue plan" because they
> wouldn't take wage concessions, what everyone forgets is that the
> UAW already cut back on wages for current and future employees during
> the last contract negotiation, not to mention the whole thing about
> the UAW taking over their own health care costs which will cut the
> $55/hr price tag considerably. So let's not blame the union for a
> company failing, let us put the blame where it belongs, MANAGMENT!
> You can't blame the people that come in to work everyday and do the
> job that they were given by management. The workers do not decide
> how many of what kind of car to make, or what options to equip the
> vehicle with, or even what the car or truck looks like. This is all
> done by salary employees. The union employees show up to work and
> put it all together the way the "big wigs" want it to be put together.
> I haven't heard anything about any of these salary employees wages
> being cut from $150,000/yr to $50,000/yr but they are the first to
> say the union needs to cut their wages. The same goes for the people
> in our government that approved a $700 billion bailout for Wall St.
> but are against a $35 billion LOAN for Main St.. Well I say to them,
> since the government is losing money and we now have the biggest
> spending deficet ever, maybe they should be willing to make wage
> concessions themselves.
On Dec 14 08:42 AM paulk8756 wrote:
> Mark,
>
> Good work, thank you. I've seen numbers that indicate the pay gap
> is as high as $800 a unit, but you make the point well.
>
> Unions are truly fascinating. Rather than have everyone work for
> a little less, their excessive demands often end up putting a major
> portion of THEIR OWN MEMBERS out of work. And, more often than not,
> PERMANENTLY.
>
> If one didn't know better (?), you'd think these union leaders didn't
> know how to use an adding machine. But my conclusion after many
> years is it isn't about their MEMBERS, but these leaders selfishly
> staying in power THEMSELVES.
>
> You'd think these hard working people would have caught on to this
> game by now, and my own suspicion is many of them have. But doing
> something about ending the stranglehold these people have on their
> so-called "Brothers" is difficult. And without access to "Right
> to Work," practically impossible.
>
> Meanwhile, while Detroit's automakers and their poor employees are
> headed toward financial ruin, their non-union Southern brethren and
> the rest of us can only stand sadly by and observe their plight in
> horror.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Or could it be quality of life in that people do not want to relocate to Detroit?
Really???
On Dec 14 08:48 AM drummerboy wrote:
> what your analysis fails to mention the reason why these foreign
> companies always seek to be in the southern states of this country
> is because labor, and the cost of living is so much cheaper.look
> at the history in this country, and the old adage, the south is gonna
> do it again. you may still be in the dark ages with the mentality
> that labor is cheap, or should be cheap,hence the reason why the
> civil war was fought. show me one of these foreign car companies
> that establish themselves in a geographical area that is anywhere
> north kentucky. you won't! these car companies that come to this
> country know more about history and demographics in order to get
> the most bang for their buck. remember,it's the south who have NEVER
> had respect for the labor force, chaingangs,civil war,slave labor.
> come one folks, he who blames labor for any type of ruination in
> this country is a fool.blame a working man for working.thats insane.whats
> even more insane is the notion that its a union's fault. wake up
> america. he who has never belonged, or has never gotten their finger
> nails dirty will never understand.time to keep the eye on the real
> ball is now. southern politicians who want to protect the notion
> that labor is only worth 20k a yr., lawyers and insurance companies
> as well. get a clue
On Dec 14 03:27 PM paulk8756 wrote:
> Drummer,
>
> Thanks for your thoughtful response.
>
> You're right about the general disparity between N/S wages, but it's
> not a hard and fast rule. I was recruited to work in the South (Nawlins)
> actually, from Washington, DC.
>
> I also remember working for a buck an hour growing up in PA. Imagine
> my delight when I got up to $2. I thought I was on top of the world.
>
>
> But times are different now. As we make more, prices rise throughout
> our local (wherever it is) economy. And we're competing with labor
> worldwide now, not just across our state or country.
>
> When I was young I was represented by unions, too. I didn't have
> a say in the matter. I recall they were good a taking my money,
> but they were never around when I asked them to help me.
>
> Today I know carpenters who make $50 an hour and are worth it, and
> others unemployed who'd be ready to work for $20. To tell you the
> truth, that seems fairer to me than having someone else decide what
> everyone's going to make beforehand.
On Dec 14 08:48 AM drummerboy wrote:
> what your analysis fails to mention the reason why these foreign
> companies always seek to be in the southern states of this country
> is because labor, and the cost of living is so much cheaper.look
> at the history in this country, and the old adage, the south is gonna
> do it again. you may still be in the dark ages with the mentality
> that labor is cheap, or should be cheap,hence the reason why the
> civil war was fought. show me one of these foreign car companies
> that establish themselves in a geographical area that is anywhere
> north kentucky. you won't! these car companies that come to this
> country know more about history and demographics in order to get
> the most bang for their buck. remember,it's the south who have NEVER
> had respect for the labor force, chaingangs,civil war,slave labor.
> come one folks, he who blames labor for any type of ruination in
> this country is a fool.blame a working man for working.thats insane.whats
> even more insane is the notion that its a union's fault. wake up
> america. he who has never belonged, or has never gotten their finger
> nails dirty will never understand.time to keep the eye on the real
> ball is now. southern politicians who want to protect the notion
> that labor is only worth 20k a yr., lawyers and insurance companies
> as well. get a clue
On Dec 14 08:48 AM drummerboy wrote:
> ....... you may still be in the dark ages with the mentality
> that labor is cheap, or should be cheap,hence the reason why the
> civil war was fought. show me one of these foreign car companies
> that establish themselves in a geographical area that is anywhere
> north kentucky. you won't! these car companies that come to this
> country know more about history and demographics in order to get
> the most bang for their buck. remember,it's the south who have NEVER
> had respect for the labor force, chaingangs,civil war,slave labor.
> come one folks, he who blames labor for any type of ruination in
> this country is a fool.blame a working man for working.thats insane.whats
> even more insane is the notion that its a union's fault. wake up
> america. he who has never belonged, or has never gotten their finger
> nails dirty will never understand.time to keep the eye on the real
> ball is now. southern politicians who want to protect the notion
> that labor is only worth 20k a yr., lawyers and insurance companies
> as well. get a clue
What incredible drivel. Does Detroit UAW employees represent an educated work force to anyone? Doesn't Detroit auto say somewhere that if you have a high school education that you're somehow overqualified? I mean, really!
As to the notion that the Unions caused the auto companies to blow up----well, I will heap a bit of scorn on management as well. Management didn't have to sign on to those disastrous UAW contracts starting back decades ago to the current year. I mean they really weren't looking at long-term viability of the industry. The auto industry has huge fixed expenses which they pay whether there is a strike or not and it costs millions per day to sit idle. Ultimately, I think it came down to CEO bonuses. What CEO was willing to forgo their current bonuses for the long term health of the company? Bonuses should have been structured in contract renegotiation year for this fact.
The UAW is faulted for using their considerable leverage in an industry that was beholden to supplier contracts, idled plant labor costs, gold plated healthcare plans, and intolerable work rules. The UAW plan now is to push card check, force foreign transplant employees into the UAW, raise their bottom line, send those jobs out of the country, all supported by taxpayer dollars. As for those loans, they will be either converted to stock or be forgiven.
Good,thoughtful article...
Let's see 30 hours times $10.00, I come up with a $300.00 difference.
In my opinion, the aim is to make the UAW irrelevant, why pay union dues if union workers make the same as the workers that don't pay UAW dues.
In the event that the Southern Senators win and kill off the UAW, Toyota factory workers will soon be kissing that $45.00 per hour rate goodbye, there is no doubt in my mind that the Toyota workers know what will happen to their wages if the UAW fails.
But the sad part is that even after the cost disadvantage, GM is producing trash. I have bought 5 cars and they have all been Japanese. I want to buy American whenever possible but who wants to call Tow Trucks and get the car fixed again and again.
The only meaningful cars GM makes is Cadillac, Hummer and Corvette. Its other cars and SUVs are just not wanted by anyone. And we all know that Cadillac, Hummer and Corvette have a very small market.
Who cares, as long as we can afford for the private jets for these CEOs, we are all in great shape, right!!!!!!
Stay humble.
On Dec 14 09:54 AM macanic wrote:
> You go to hell, you are the one without a clue. As far as being industry
> friendly, you can't beat the Southern states.
>
> The people here know more about hard work than any place in this
> nation.
>
> At least we still know what the word PRIDE means, which is why we
> are getting all the industry now. Unions suck, always have. The end
> result is Detroits present state.
>
> The South is rising again, and the North is just pissed because they
> have pissed all their opportunities way by their greedy nature.
>
>> Unions suck, always have.
I got mixed feelings about unions now. But, they "always have" sucked? You're being extremely ingrateful. Next time a coal mine collapses and kills someone in West Virginia, go read up on the history of unions forcing employers to improve worker safety.
On Dec 14 08:48 AM drummerboy wrote:
> what your analysis fails to mention the reason why these foreign
> companies always seek to be in the southern states of this country
> is because labor, and the cost of living is so much cheaper.look
> at the history in this country, and the old adage, the south is gonna
> do it again. you may still be in the dark ages with the mentality
> that labor is cheap, or should be cheap,hence the reason why the
> civil war was fought. show me one of these foreign car companies
> that establish themselves in a geographical area that is anywhere
> north kentucky. you won't! these car companies that come to this
> country know more about history and demographics in order to get
> the most bang for their buck. remember,it's the south who have NEVER
> had respect for the labor force, chaingangs,civil war,slave labor.
> come one folks, he who blames labor for any type of ruination in
> this country is a fool.blame a working man for working.thats insane.whats
> even more insane is the notion that its a union's fault. wake up
> america. he who has never belonged, or has never gotten their finger
> nails dirty will never understand.time to keep the eye on the real
> ball is now. southern politicians who want to protect the notion
> that labor is only worth 20k a yr., lawyers and insurance companies
> as well. get a clue