Peter Schiff: Outlook for the Gold Market 40 comments
The Wall Street Transcript
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The Wall Street Transcript recently interviewed Peter Schiff, President and Chief Global Strategist of Euro Pacific Capital, Inc., on his outlook for the gold market. Key excerpts follow:
TWST: These are somewhat trying times. What has this meant so far for the gold market and where do we go from here?
Mr. Schiff: Gold has actually held up very well compared to other asset classes. If you look at the price of gold relative to its peak, it's only off about 25%, whereas if you look at stock markets around the world, most are off 50% or more, certainly if you price them in US dollars. If you look at how gold has held up relative to industrial metals, relative to energy, relative to agriculture, gold has done extremely well. I think the fact that it has gone down in dollars has caused a lot of people to assume that gold is not performing in this correction whereas, in fact, it has. Also if you look at gold in terms of other currencies, recently you've seen all-time record highs in the price of gold in South African rand, in Australian dollars, in Canadian dollars. So gold has actually had a very strong, stealth move when viewed from the prism of something other than the US dollar.
TWST: Why does everybody key in on the US dollar side of the equation?
Mr. Schiff: Because gold was priced in dollars, it's traded in dollars and so we all look at it as the dollar price, and the fact that gold has not made a new high in dollars during this economic crisis has led some to believe that maybe it's lost its luster, it's not a safe haven. But this rise of the dollar is very suspicious to me, I don't think it's justified. But it's been the unlikely beneficiary of all the problems. You've got the problem centered in the US economy; the epicenter of the financial crisis is in America. The reason that the world is in trouble is mainly because of bad loans made to Americans and it's our economy that I think is a complete facade, a house of cards that has now collapsed, so this dollar rally actually makes no sense.
And especially in light of the monetary policies that we pursued over the course of the last six months, the bailouts, the stimulus, all of the things that are likely to happen with Barack Obama saying that the sky is the limit on budget deficits, we're going to print money until we run out of trees. Everything that we are doing is so negative for the dollar, yet the dollar has managed to rally. So I think temporarily the fundamentals are on hold, but I think once the dollar really resumes its decline, you're going to see gold really shine again not only in terms of the dollar. It will continue to do well against other currencies, but it will do particularly well against the dollar.
TWST: Isn't gold normally the "safe haven" that investors seek?
Mr. Schiff: I think it's a safe haven. A lot of people are seeking safety right now in the US dollar, but that makes no sense to me. That's like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. I think the dollar is a fundamentally flawed currency that is doomed to collapse, and temporarily it's benefiting from the fact that it's seen as the alternative to everything else. People are worried about all asset classes, nobody wants to own anything and somehow by default, the dollar is the opposite of owning other things. People are keeping score in terms of dollars and I'd certainly think that some of the most impaired financial institutions are in the United States. I think some of the losses are very heavy here and that has made a lot of American institutions — investment banks, hedge funds, mutual funds —liquidate assets all around the world, many assets in other countries; those institutions require the liquidation of those currencies to repatriate the dollars necessary to meet their margin calls, to fund their redemptions, and so that might also be temporarily propping up the dollar.
TWST: Has the supply/demand situation in gold changed at this point because of the problems with the hedge funds?
Mr. Schiff: Yes, I think that the credit crunch has certainly put the screws on a lot of gold exploration. A lot of the junior miners are basically on the verge of going bankrupt right now. I'm sure a lot of projects are on hold; a lot of exploration is simply not going to get funded. This is simply improving the supply and demand imbalances that have favored gold for some time and other commodities too. Certainly in industrial metals, in the energy complex, a lot of exploration, a lot of development projects have been cancelled or are never going to see the light of day for many, many years because of the credit crunch and because of the fear of falling prices, which I think is unwarranted. But even when prices start to recover, I think there will be a lot of suspicion of the rally. So people are going to be reluctant to commit capital to a market they have no confidence in.
So I think the supply and demand imbalances for commodities are going to continue, and that commodities themselves are still one of the best asset classes around the world to own. As for the commodity producers, it all depends on their balance sheets. Some of them are going to be spectacular buys. Looking at the gold complex, I think one positive development I've seen has been the strength of the South African miners, which seem to have bottomed first. They started to decline before the overall sector; when many of the Canadian miners were making new highs, the South African stocks were falling. But it seems like the South Africans have bottomed here. They've made significant rallies, some of them have even doubled from their lows and they seem to be stronger. So they topped out first; maybe the fact that they have bottomed first is a positive sign. Maybe they are going to lead on the way up just like they led on the way down.
TWST: How about on the political side of the equation? What's going to be the position of central banks now relative to gold?
Mr. Schiff: The Bank of Canada just slashed rates down to 1.5%. Central banks all around the world are reducing interest rates. It's the most inflationary monetary policy globally that we have ever experienced and ever will experience in our lifetime. That's a very favorable market for gold. When central banks are just putting the pedal to the metal on the printing presses and driving interest rates down to nothing, how can you not own gold? Gold is money, the supply of gold is going to grow very slowly over time, and the supply of all fiat currencies is going to grow rapidly. You're looking at maybe 10%, 20% per year or more annual increases in money supply in every country in the world, and then they pay you next to nothing for holding it. If you want to take currency that is rapidly being debased and you want to deposit it someplace, you are barely getting interest, so why not own gold instead? Even though gold doesn't pay interest, at least it's not being debased.
TWST: What about the central banks selling gold? Are they going to back off now due to the financial crisis?
Mr. Schiff: At some point, the central bank selling is going to turn into buying. Who are these guys kidding? They need to have real reserves behind their currencies. They can't simply hold the US dollars and say our currency has real value because it's backed by the dollar. When the dollar is backed by nothing and being rapidly debased and paying no interest — our rates are down to 1% and likely to head lower. What's the justification for foreign central banks holding dollar deposits rather than gold, when the dollar yields next to nothing? It doesn't make any sense. So I think central banks are going to become buyers and the central banks that own the most gold are going to have the most influence, the strongest currencies, etc. I think people are going to see that and right now, if you look at the percentage of gold owned by central banks, it's at the lowest it's ever been.
TWST: Silver and platinum have come down much more than gold. Is that because of supply/demand or just because of what's going on in the market?
Mr. Schiff: I think there are more industrial uses for those metals and so more of this whole idea that the global economy is going to collapse and no one is going to buy anything is hurting those metals relative to gold. I think gold is more of a pure monetary metal. Sure there's some jewelry demand for gold, but it's not used as much in industry, and I think it's more of a monetary metal, a safe haven metal and so, because of that function, it is holding on to its value. I think there are a number of individuals around the world who understand the difference between gold and fiat money, and I think a lot of people are worried and want to protect their wealth. There is a minority of investors who see through the smokescreen and are not buying US Treasuries, they are buying gold. At some point, the people who are doing that are going to be the ones who are going to be vindicated as gold prices ultimately make new highs, and I still think that we could hit $2,000 an ounce next year in the price of gold.
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This article has 40 comments:
The Fed will then be in a very uncomfortable spot..prices will indicate tightening...but tightening will never fly with the Obama Administration because the ordinary person will not have had time to yet become solvent. THAT'S WHEN THE RUSH TO BUY TANGIBLE ASSETS WILL TAKE OFF AND WILL LAST DEEP INTO 2010. All this is not going to follow the simple minded linear thaw we read about..the turn will come like a bolt from the blue.
Take the above Article, instead of viewing gold's current price against the Euro, Yen, and Yuan, it targets currencies which have dropped the most against the Dollar, ie. Commodity driven currencies.
Using the Euro, at parity against the USD, Gold is about $600. When was the Euro at parity last? I don't really remember, sometime around 2001-2002 I believe. Not that long ago really.
Hmm, when gold rallied above $1,000, the Euro was around 1.60. or about where it is right now vs the dollar on a parity basis.
Gold has dropped against the Yen even more so and is virtually unchanged against the Yuan.
Howard Ruff agrees in principle as do other Gold radicals like Doug Casey and the Aden Sisters that a day of "Reckoning" is coming down the pike.
But it won't be Spring, late spring, early summer or late summer, Deflation is still rampant and other shoes are about to drop.
IMHO
Terry - Bose, don't get me started. Please visit the audio enthusiast forums before buying Bose and get educated as to what the alternatives are.
More shoes will drop. Rates in other markets will come down to help reinflate. Currencies will become more volatile. (Look at the USD over the last week or two.) Gold should at least hold its value as more and more money wants to hedge currency vX. By the time that trade is beaten to a pulp, the inflationary pressure from the central banks around the world will be deafening.
Speaking of shoes dropping, as more shoes come off, there's a distinctly deflationary pressure. The usual approach would be to shift from investing in equities to debt. What if the shoes dropping are all debt-related because everyone is over-levered. Where's the safe haven if debt is dangerous?
Not that inflation is raging. The immediate problem of course is the start of a deflation spiral. The Obama administration will be forced to apply whatever stimulus is needed to stem a deflation. They feel that they can strangle inflation later with fiscal policy, but there is little that can be done with a deflation spiral. The market knows this and may want to run gold up well in advance of any actual inflation.
Between all the selling, leasing and other derivatives it appears the alleged central bank gold price suppression scheme may be ending as the central banks have less than half the gold they claim. Mr. Robert Landis, a graduate of Princeton University, Harvard Law School and member of the New York Bar, asserted in 2005, “Any rational person who continues to dispute the existence of the rig after exposure to the evidence is either in denial or is complicit.” When the market realizes this it will be very interesting for the gold market. While it would be unlikely it appears Schiff may not even be aware of what is really going on in the gold market.
www.runtogold.com/2005.../
1. The deflationary forces from the current de-leveraging are far larger than the quantative easing that the Fed can do. In the last year, we've lost nearly 20 trillion in global equity valuations, not counting the several trillion in global real estate assets, corporate bonds, municipal bonds, etc etc etc. The fed even on its best days may be able to only inject 2-3 trillion/yr into the system. what they are doing is basically trying to fill a bathtub with a squirt gun.
2. Gold investing has been a leveraged activity over the past 18-24 months. Look at all of the Gold ETFs. They basically allow investors who never buy a single ounce of gold to partake in the price action. ETFs are now the fourth largest holder of gold supplies. If there is any serious hiccup in these entities, forced liquidations could cause the ETFs to flood the market with gold.
3. There is no replacement currency for the dollar. The ECB has proven that they are ass backwards in their thinking, the Japanese are still having problems with deflation, the Chinese are corrupt as hell and their banks are burdened with trillions of dollars of non-performing loans from the communist days, and we've all seen what's happened to Russia lately.
4. The Chinese consumer is not powerful enough to rescue the world economy. The average Chinese person earns roughly $2,100/yr and the average American earns $50,000. This means that the Chinese guy must increase his marginal income nearly 24x to hit the same level that the American guy is at. In order to get there, either that guy needs to earn 24x as much or the dollar needs to depreciate 97-99%. None of those things are likely to happen.
5. COMMODITIES were all a bubble and are not likely to reflate anytime soon. I'd expect this to happen only when all of the commodity bulls give up and go play somewhere else (which given the current CNBC offerings of advice will be a while).
Love the irony in your comment, shame you haven't been keeping up on current affairs following the stunning victory in Iraq !
On Dec 22 08:36 PM leemajors1964 wrote:
> I don't beleive the dollar will be allowed to collapse. The Japanese,
> Chinese and OPEC are expected to tow the line. I am sure the aggreement
> with them is well understood. Contrary to what the austrians think
> the dollar is backed by hard assets-- lead, uranium and plutonium.
You can talk about deflation until you are blue in the face but the facts that during the Depression and the asinine Jimmy Carter regime - liquidity was not injected into the system to reverse deflation. That is being done now my multiple governments around the world right now. The deflationary forces will be fought off and the ensuing inflationary forces are going to be massive. Gold will explode.
On Dec 23 04:42 AM Commodity bubble proponent wrote:
> Anyone who buys Schiff's arguments is a moron for a couple of reasons:
>
>
> 1. The deflationary forces from the current de-leveraging are far
> larger than the quantative easing that the Fed can do. In the last
> year, we've lost nearly 20 trillion in global equity valuations,
> not counting the several trillion in global real estate assets, corporate
> bonds, municipal bonds, etc etc etc. The fed even on its best days
> may be able to only inject 2-3 trillion/yr into the system. what
> they are doing is basically trying to fill a bathtub with a squirt
> gun.
>
> 2. Gold investing has been a leveraged activity over the past 18-24
> months. Look at all of the Gold ETFs. They basically allow investors
> who never buy a single ounce of gold to partake in the price action.
> ETFs are now the fourth largest holder of gold supplies. If there
> is any serious hiccup in these entities, forced liquidations could
> cause the ETFs to flood the market with gold.
>
> 3. There is no replacement currency for the dollar. The ECB has proven
> that they are ass backwards in their thinking, the Japanese are still
> having problems with deflation, the Chinese are corrupt as hell and
> their banks are burdened with trillions of dollars of non-performing
> loans from the communist days, and we've all seen what's happened
> to Russia lately.
>
> 4. The Chinese consumer is not powerful enough to rescue the world
> economy. The average Chinese person earns roughly $2,100/yr and the
> average American earns $50,000. This means that the Chinese guy must
> increase his marginal income nearly 24x to hit the same level that
> the American guy is at. In order to get there, either that guy needs
> to earn 24x as much or the dollar needs to depreciate 97-99%. None
> of those things are likely to happen.
>
> 5. COMMODITIES were all a bubble and are not likely to reflate anytime
> soon. I'd expect this to happen only when all of the commodity bulls
> give up and go play somewhere else (which given the current CNBC
> offerings of advice will be a while).
The problem has always been and will continue to be a matter of timing. Will Gold burst up from $750 or $600 or lower? When will inflationary expectations take over from deflationary ones?
I'm taking my own cue from Oil, at these prices with no respite visible, I do not see any reason to chase gold or even buy it.
IMHO
The basic economic principle of inflation is too much money chasing too few goods. No one to my knowledge has ever proven otherwise.
A lot of the lost asset value is now in the hands of earlier sellers and producers, it did not disappear. Somebody received that mortgage loan money.
Triilions pumped into the system does not instantly create more assets. How can this not create inflation for commodities?
On Dec 23 04:42 AM Commodity bubble proponent wrote:
> Anyone who buys Schiff's arguments is a moron for a couple of reasons:
>
>
> 1. The deflationary forces from the current de-leveraging are far
> larger than the quantative easing that the Fed can do. In the last
> year, we've lost nearly 20 trillion in global equity valuations,
> not counting the several trillion in global real estate assets, corporate
> bonds, municipal bonds, etc etc etc. The fed even on its best days
> may be able to only inject 2-3 trillion/yr into the system. what
> they are doing is basically trying to fill a bathtub with a squirt
> gun.
>
> 2. Gold investing has been a leveraged activity over the past 18-24
> months. Look at all of the Gold ETFs. They basically allow investors
> who never buy a single ounce of gold to partake in the price action.
> ETFs are now the fourth largest holder of gold supplies. If there
> is any serious hiccup in these entities, forced liquidations could
> cause the ETFs to flood the market with gold.
>
> 3. There is no replacement currency for the dollar. The ECB has proven
> that they are ass backwards in their thinking, the Japanese are still
> having problems with deflation, the Chinese are corrupt as hell and
> their banks are burdened with trillions of dollars of non-performing
> loans from the communist days, and we've all seen what's happened
> to Russia lately.
>
> 4. The Chinese consumer is not powerful enough to rescue the world
> economy. The average Chinese person earns roughly $2,100/yr and the
> average American earns $50,000. This means that the Chinese guy must
> increase his marginal income nearly 24x to hit the same level that
> the American guy is at. In order to get there, either that guy needs
> to earn 24x as much or the dollar needs to depreciate 97-99%. None
> of those things are likely to happen.
>
> 5. COMMODITIES were all a bubble and are not likely to reflate anytime
> soon. I'd expect this to happen only when all of the commodity bulls
> give up and go play somewhere else (which given the current CNBC
> offerings of advice will be a while).
One must realize that "the fixers" do not intend to "fix" anything. For world leaders -- not to call names or anything, but let's call a spade a spade -- we have a bunch of ego-driven, selfish-beyond-words, deeply-twisted, inhumane and elitist, power-mongering devil-worshippers at the helm.
These power-brokers just want what they want: self-interest, power, and control. The base, dark-side of humanity, misled and mistaken. Surely won't make 'em happy, no matter what they can buy, steal, kill, or control.
The wheat and tares have grown up side by side. Just so there is no confusion about things.... This ain't just about the world economy. It's about good and evil, and overcoming the world, as our Lord did.
The good news is that every extreme has its equally powerful opposite, and good is far, far more powerful than evil, ultimately.
Not to be too flip about what we have to go through, but God and good -- and even gold -- do win in the end. Play for the winning team!
So where does all the money go in a deflation? Well don't blame stock markets. Blame the invention of fractional banking, leverage, and fictitious money that relies only on the confidence of the public for its survival. The problem in the 30s was a banking problem and that's the danger now for deflation - the vanishing funny money the debt "instruments" have pumped into the world over the last 30 years.
The money part of the equation is here, unfortunately, the demand portion is not. The Fed and Treasury want spending, they aren't getting it. Inflation is unable to get a foothold.
The Mortgage money you refer to? Some of it was spread over 15 years, some over 30 years other amounts over 5, etc. Then someone decided to bundle and sell them to others who repackaged them to get low cost loans at multiples of their initial values because, after all they were AAA rated over a long timeframe.
The initial loan turned out to be a fraction of what was generated. The Mortgage Money went from the Bank to the Homebuilder, who in turn bought more land and built more homes at ever higher home prices. A lot of Money chasing too few goods which greated the Housing Bubble and inflated the hell out of home prices.
The Housing Bubble had a multiplying effect, Home Insurance, Home Equity loans, Home refinancing, Home improvements all based on those initial Mortgages which were lump sum items only to the Builders.
The rest was created out of thin air and creative accounting, It is returning to thin air. Money was leveraged and releveraged. Trillions of dollars worth which did not have underlying collateral. Toxic waste.
It was a Big Ponzi scheme.
Too much money chasing too few goods, the Key word is Chasing. There is no chasing currently.
IMHO
As to point 5, "middle class" in China means that you make more than $2,000 per year. To put that in comparison, even at today's prices, $2,000 per year is the average fuel expenditure for the typical American for the year. Chinese demand is really a big myth if you look at the demographic figures
As to the guy who wants to know whats happening to the money that the fed is printing, it is going to replace the depleted capital from all of the bank writedowns. This is not new money that will lead to new lending.
For the gold bugs, the inflationary spike is OVER. The inflation and big spike in asset values occurred with the total relaxation of credit standards globally. Between 2001-2007, if you take into account subprime loans, derivatives, etc., there was tens of trillions of dollars of new money "created" by banks. The fed is a small party in this game with its 2 trillion in new money. As a result, the inflationary boom that Mr. Schiff preaches about endlessly actually died with the collapse of endless credit where people could spend without any regard for their income.
All the Fed's quantitative easing will do is simply slow down the deflationary forces (i.e. imagine what would have happened to oil prices had Goldman/Morgan been allowed to fail in October).
On Dec 22 10:27 AM Greg Pinelli wrote:
> Mr. Schiff has a very finely tuned BS Meter (as does James Grant
> and Richard Russell)...what he and others (including myself) believe
> is going to happen in the next 12 months is frightening. At some
> point in 2009...very likely mid to late Spring..the trillions (over
> 10 trillion by then) of dollars and Euros in credit will begin to
> gush towards users. The loan stampede and reversal of asset price
> decreases will thaw into a gusher. Oil..base metals..and especially
> gold and silver will find buyers scrambling to buy from bare inventories
> and producers gearing up at breakneck speed.
> The Fed will then be in a very uncomfortable spot..prices will indicate
> tightening...but tightening will never fly with the Obama Administration
> because the ordinary person will not have had time to yet become
> solvent. THAT'S WHEN THE RUSH TO BUY TANGIBLE ASSETS WILL TAKE OFF
> AND WILL LAST DEEP INTO 2010. All this is not going to follow the
> simple minded linear thaw we read about..the turn will come like
> a bolt from the blue.
>
Gold is the ultimate form of deflation because it is the ultimate form of payment and is always accepted. When capital starts moving into gold there will be no chance of getting it out and then the economy goes into stasis.
www.runtogold.com/2008.../
The fact is there is no model for what will happen in the US, because there has never in the history of the world been a country with so much debt of all forms, household, corporate, and government. The US also has the biggest economy in history, the biggest military in history, and the biggest government in history.
This is uncharted territory.
On Dec 23 04:42 AM Commodity bubble proponent wrote:
> Anyone who buys Schiff's arguments is a moron for a couple of reasons:
>
>
> 1. The deflationary forces from the current de-leveraging are far
> larger than the quantative easing that the Fed can do. In the last
> year, we've lost nearly 20 trillion in global equity valuations,
> not counting the several trillion in global real estate assets, corporate
> bonds, municipal bonds, etc etc etc. The fed even on its best days
> may be able to only inject 2-3 trillion/yr into the system. what
> they are doing is basically trying to fill a bathtub with a squirt
> gun.
The whole idea that the Fed isn't dumping enough into the system is very dismissive of the capacity of the U.S. economy to affect a bottoming of deflationary forces once Fed induced liquidity meets up with a high enough level of writedowns which will only lead to opportunity for savvy risktakers which we have never lacked over an extended period of time. This is nothing more than a real estate bubble. A large real estate bubble that needs to be deflated.
> 3. There is no replacement currency for the dollar. The ECB has proven
> that they are ass backwards in their thinking, the Japanese are still
> having problems with deflation, the Chinese are corrupt as hell and
> their banks are burdened with trillions of dollars of non-performing
> loans from the communist days, and we've all seen what's happened
> to Russia lately.
As much as it pains me to say it, the Chinese may not have any more corruption in their system than America, and I'm not talking about politics.
We aren't nearly as transparent as many would have you believe. As for Chinese bank debt, your estimates are wildly exaggerated. Their banks had about 1.3 Trillion in 2001. Check it out, things have changed.
> 4. The Chinese consumer is not powerful enough to rescue the world
> economy. The average Chinese person earns roughly $2,100/yr and the
> average American earns $50,000. This means that the Chinese guy must
> increase his marginal income nearly 24x to hit the same level that
> the American guy is at. In order to get there, either that guy needs
> to earn 24x as much or the dollar needs to depreciate 97-99%. None
> of those things are likely to happen.
Actually, I would say the Chinese mode might be $2100/yr or thereabouts, but they do have an upper class that has been growing tremendously. While it may be a relatively small percent of the overall population, its still sizeable even compared to the U.S. Nevertheless, I'm not confident they are ready to run demand in the world.
> 5. COMMODITIES were all a bubble and are not likely to reflate anytime
> soon. I'd expect this to happen only when all of the commodity bulls
> give up and go play somewhere else (which given the current CNBC
> offerings of advice will be a while).
Commodities are going through the same bear market as the stock market. They will rally then plunge much as the stock market. Likely, we will see re-inflation in this sector as soon as we anticipate the bottom is in on real estate and the economy overall.
I am looking to several "tells" that should allow me (I hope) to move fast. First, when oil prices start to increase. Second, when US housing prices at least slow their rate of decline and finally when the Chines economy starts to take off again. I think they will be in this order or very close to it. China may take off before the US housing market stabilizes.
When these things start to occur it time to jump on gold and commodities.
Thats about $175/Gram more or less. HAHA........... "GET REAL!!!"
"House of Pleasure" HAHA......
But entry now might be a bit premature, and you won't need to catch the bottom.
On Dec 23 01:17 PM Simmons wrote:
> The best way to play this inflation theme is not by buying gold but
> by shorting long term treasuries.
Likewise, all this housing wealth that disappeared never really existed to begin with. I bought a house at 250k and at some point similar houses in my street were going for 450k, and now it's back at 250k, but that doesn't mean that I lost 200k and someone else walked away with it. I suffered a theoretical loss, but no money changed hands.
On Dec 23 09:50 PM BrucePile wrote:
> To the point about all the money lost in the stock markets causing
> an equal amount of deflation: all that money did not disappear !
> The market is a zero sum game; every dollar you make in the market
> comes out of some other participant's pocket on the losing end of
> a trade.
On Dec 29 05:09 PM Sleeves wrote:
> Quick question. If the Europeans are doing the same as the Fed why
> does P. Schiff their currencies will fare any better than the Dollar?
> Why invest in European Equity?
On Jan 05 07:29 AM sundrenched wrote:
> Noop, this is a common misconception, but this money never existed,
> it was only an estimate of worth, not actual worth. The market cap
> of a company is the number of outstanding shares multiplied by the
> last transacted price, but the last transacted price would not be
> available to all shareholders if they tried to sell all at the same
> time.
>
> Likewise, all this housing wealth that disappeared never really existed
> to begin with. I bought a house at 250k and at some point similar
> houses in my street were going for 450k, and now it's back at 250k,
> but that doesn't mean that I lost 200k and someone else walked away
> with it. I suffered a theoretical loss, but no money changed hands.
>
>
> On Dec 23 09:50 PM BrucePile wrote: