Web.com Group, Inc. Presents at Goldman Sachs Technology & Internet Conference 2013, Feb-13-2013 02:40 PM

Feb.14.13 | About: Web.com Group, (WEB)

Web.com Group, Inc (WWWW)

February 13, 2013 5:40 pm ET

Executives

David L. Brown - Chairman, Chief Executive Officer and President

Unknown Analyst

Great. Well, thanks, everyone, for joining us. I'm very excited to have David Brown, President and CEO of Web.com, join us for our next panel discussion. So, David, for those who are less familiar with Web.com, how would you describe the company?

David L. Brown

So I think if you start at the basics, it's a company that focuses, first and foremost, on small businesses, brick-and-mortar small businesses. It's a subscription business. So we generate all of our revenue by lots and lots of small customers paying us a little bit of money, but for a very long time. We're also a one-stop shop. We're the closest to a one-stop shop for all things you need on the Internet of any company out in the space today.

We have the broadest suite of products of anyone, therefore, that serves this market, ranging from domain names, we're the second largest retail distributor of domains in the world, to all the way up to the most sophisticated websites and online marketing campaigns, social media campaigns, mobile products of anyone in the space.

It's a very profitable business, as well as an organic grower. So it's always been a blend of profit and organic growth. There's a strong M&A history in the business, mostly adding product to our portfolio. That's how we got much of the product that we have today, including the 2 large-scale acquisitions we made of Register.com and Network Solutions.

We're also a strong cash flow-oriented company. We generate -- we have a very high cash flow conversion ratio in our business. So we're able to take on debt, de-lever very quickly and create value from that perspective.

Unknown Analyst

Great. So David, Local is a category that's been getting a lot of attention. From a consumer perspective, consumers are ready to adopt platforms and get online and engage with Local online. However, from an advertiser's perspective, they are far behind the curve. How do you see yourself fitting in to the local ecosystem and really getting small businesses to embrace technology?

David L. Brown

That's a great question. So most small businesses, really where the rubber meets the road, it's all usually within a short geographic distance around their store. Remember, we focus on brick-and-mortar small businesses. And so that's really where all the action is. And historically, they used the Yellow Page phone book to find customers or for customers to find them. They might have used some newspaper advertising. They might have used radio.

Now consumers aren't using those mediums. They're using online search. So now small businesses are slow to move. There's tremendous inertia to stay the same, but the difficult economy starting in 2007, 2008, has really begun to push the market rapidly online.

Now we find that small businesses no longer have to be sold. They just need to be educated about the value proposition and about how to de-risk the transaction from themselves. So our job today is far less about selling; it's far more about educating them and what are the right solutions for them. And the one thing that, I think, the investment community misunderstands and perhaps, even small businesses still misunderstand is, really the name of the game is just having your website found and -- found high in the search rankings and then seeing conversion from that user who finds it. That's really most of the action today. All the other fun things we talk about, social, mobile, all of that stuff is icing on the cake. If they can just get found in a search, that begins to replace that Yellow Page phone book and the newspaper ad that served them so well for the last 100 years.

Unknown Analyst

So taking a step back, how do you think about your addressable market? How big is it? And where -- what's your share right now?

David L. Brown

So if you think about the U.S., to begin with, there are about 30 million small businesses in the U.S. We have a whopping 3 million of them. So relatively small market share. And what's, I think, most exciting about it is, if you don't think about it as subscribers, but think about it at -- from a product share perspective, 44% of small businesses in the U.S. have a website, but that's not really the point. The website still has to work, and very small percentage of those websites get found in search or convert. And even more exciting, that's the highest percentage penetration of anything other than domains. From there, you fall into single-digit penetration for things like social media, Facebook, e-Commerce, online marketing. So we're just getting started. We're just in the first inning of the game in terms of helping adoption and helping small businesses leverage the Internet.

Unknown Analyst

What are you seeing for small businesses from a macro perspective? We saw some fairly weak macro indicators in 2012. Are things starting to improve in 2013?

David L. Brown

Well, I hate to say it, but we don't see it in our data, and we have very rich data about the economy. We have things like the billing success rate of credit card transactions each month, and we bill millions of customers. The over limit charges, the business failure rates, we haven't seen a noticeable improvement in any of that, nor have we seen a -- anything other than an adjustment to a difficult market -- a difficult economic market. But the other side of the perspective is, what are they doing about it? They're looking for low-cost ways to improve their business. Online marketing, the Internet. It happens to be one of those. So we're seeing a much stronger, positive influence from adoption that we are from a difficult macroeconomy.

So the way we think about it is, boy, if it's this good in a difficult economy, what it's going to look like when the economy begins to improve for this market segment?

Unknown Analyst

You mentioned earlier that basic [indiscernible] for small businesses to get their websites found, but we're seeing new platforms emerge like mobile and social, and you're certainly trying to help small businesses there. Where are small businesses in terms of engaging on those newer platforms? And what is your solution to help them do it?

David L. Brown

So it's -- I think it's a marketplace again with this great inertia. It's a curious marketplace, but a very risk-averse marketplace. A marketplace that once it's proven to them, what's the return on investment? Is this going to be the right investment to make with the limited funds that I have? And so we are seeing receptivity. We're seeing the opportunity to educate. We're not seeing rapid adoption at this point, but we know it's coming. The good news is, for us, it's an easy playbook.

Whatever big businesses do, small businesses eventually do. It's just a matter of timing. So all we really need to do is be prepared. So to your second part of your question, what we do is get prepared. We have several mobile offerings today that are -- have very small penetration, but are allowing us to refine our scale, refine the product and our delivery. We have several social media products that we've launched. One in the Facebook category, one in the reputation management category, and those are doing well, but they'll do tremendously better as the market matures and adoption continues. We have our e-Commerce products. We're way out in front of the market in many cases, but you need to be out in front of the market if you know it's coming and it's big and you want to be prepared. So we prepare ourselves by making sure that we have all of the core products that small businesses would need, continually refining them and then just talking to customers. We don't spend a lot of time trying to sell to customers. We spend a lot of time educating customers. They -- if it's right for them, they buy, and that's a much happier customer than the customer that you sold to.

Unknown Analyst

So what are -- you mentioned you do some Facebook products. Can you help us understand what the Facebook products are and what you're seeing in terms of attach rates?

David L. Brown

Sure. So Facebook has been a fun project for us. We launched our first Facebook offering over a year ago. It was the most successful product launch we had ever had in the history of the company by several times over. And that really -- it was at the time that Facebook was going public, so there was a lot of consumer and public sentiment around it and that drove demand. The product was a simple product. Build a Facebook profile page and educate the customers on how to engage with their followers. $40 a month product. We were selling 4,000 product sales per quarter. It grew to 6,000 product sales per quarter after several quarters. We then made an adjustment in the product. We added a little bit more interaction and a small advertising component, so that they could begin to get more followers. That product continued to sell very strongly. And then just several weeks ago, we paused the sale of that product and improved it further. And we've relaunched the product at $190 a month, and it includes a very customized interaction program with followers. So we not only help you get followers at a much more robust level, but we actually have created technology that will allow you to interact with your followers on a real-time basis. If you make a posting and someone responds, you'll respond immediately. The customer doesn't have to do any of this. We're doing it for them using technology, and it encourages the development of a follower base and also the interaction. We think this is going to be a very powerful product, both for us, and hopefully, it's a pathway that Facebook is looking as they begin to monetize customers.

Unknown Analyst

Then similarly mobile is a product that for local businesses we'd imagine would have a very strong consumer value proposition. Can you help us understand what it is that your offering businesses in terms of mobile-specific products?

David L. Brown

Sure. But remember I said the most important thing for a small business is just to get their website found and be highly ranked. So the first thing we did was make sure that all of our websites are optimized to be found on mobile phones, all different kinds of mobile phones, and so that the most important information shows up in an easy-to-find basis. So that was our first step. And secondly, it didn't occur to us that there are certain vertical markets where people really intensively search on mobile phones, such as limousines. If you're landing at the airport and you need a car service, if you can be the limousine company that shows up in 1 of those 2 ads that Google serves up on a mobile search result, you win. And there are other ones, too, if you ever get in trouble, a bail bondsman would be a good one, too. So you find these vertical markets and you've launched campaigns -- mobile campaigns that allow our customers to be 1 of the 2 ads that's served up. That's been a very successful campaign for us. So there are a lot of ways that mobile will find its way into the marketplace. It's earliest day is today. First, get found, and then secondly, begin to have interaction with customers.

Unknown Analyst

So you've talked about some of the newer products that you've rolled out over the last couple of years. Where is your product focus as it relates to the next 2 years?

David L. Brown

You're going to see our company do a lot of work about -- around making what we do much, much better. Most of the Internet today is not good. Sites are not found, not well-designed, don't provide real value. We're going to redouble our efforts to make sure that our customers, that what they have on the Internet rises above their competitors. So that's a major focus for us. It's reinvestment in everything that we've done. And then you'll see us focus more on social. We absolutely are convinced that, that is a phenomenon that will benefit many of our customers. Mobile, we'll continue to invest in that area. It's a phenomenon.

Video, video makes websites work better, get found easier, so you'll see us do work in video. eCommerce is an area where we've already made a major investment. We've bought several companies, invested tens of millions of dollars over the last few years in developing a platform that is specialized for small businesses to sell things online, and then we've built around that all the capabilities that a small business would need. Things like shipping support, shopping support, and all of that will receive even more investment. So those are some of the areas that we're investing and we think will be important in the coming years.

Unknown Analyst

Great. So switching gears a little bit. Network Solutions. Can you talk to us about the synergies from the acquisition and where you are in terms of integrating it?

David L. Brown

Absolutely. So first off, Network Solutions was a game changer for us. It took our scale from a $200 million company to a $500 million run rate revenue company, and it boosted our level of profitability and our free cash flow capability dramatically. And what that gave us was the ability to advertise at a level that creates awareness in the market. So you'll begin to know the Web.com name. You'll begin to see not just our TV advertising, hear our radio advertising, but you'll also see our mentions as the PGA Tour plays, as different parts of our branding program begin to kick in. All of that was made possible by the fact that we've had great success in integrating Network Solutions. In the first year, we've essentially completed most of the important tasks, achieved the $30 million in cost synergies that we said we'd get and already set ourselves up to achieve the $10 million that we promised for this year. We've done most of the data center work. We're at the tail end of that process. We've gotten through all of the restructuring costs with a very, very small amount left, less than $1 million left. So we've taken most of the hard work is behind us. And now it's really about using the scale that we've built to project the company farther into the market, create more awareness and help more small businesses.

Unknown Analyst

You just mentioned that you do TV advertising. Can help us understand what your marketing mix is and what's most effective for you, driving ROI and really reaching local businesses?

David L. Brown

Well, historically, the company was very-oriented towards telemarketing. So we have a very large sales force that engages with our own customers. And if you accidentally call us, we would help you as well. But not many people accidentally called us because they didn't know we existed. We also, we're pretty good at online marketing and we spent a lot of money advertising domain name, do-it-yourself website and got a lot of customer traction from that. In the last 2 years, we've begun to add things like direct response TV advertising. Focused at higher-ARPU products, not at domains and DIY websites, but things like bundles of a website, maintenance, everything you need to be online and to get found in that first page of Google, that product sells for $95 a month. So -- and we've found that we can invest in that direct response TV at a relatively low cost of acquisition relative to the monthly income we get. So we spend in the range of $400 to $500 a month to acquire a customer. We get a $100 customer. We breakeven on that very, very quickly, and we have a very long life of customers. So we've grown that. We've also begun to put salespeople in local markets, not just on the phone, but knocking on doors. We opened 8 offices. We call it our Feet on The Street program. They sell about $1,000 a month package of leads. So there's no technology speak here, we just deliver qualified leads for about $1,000 on average, per customer, per month, that works. These offices -- the first head offices have broken even in the range of about one year. The churn on the customers is unbelievably low, near our average churn for our company, which is 1% per month. So it's a valuable product. And we've said, we're going to add 8 more of those offices in the first half of this year, so double the size of that. So those kinds of investments. What we're beginning to do is shift our investment mix towards higher-ARPU products, more value-added services that we think will just drive more value for our customers.

Unknown Analyst

You just mentioned your churn, which is quite low relative to the industry. Can you walk us through where it's been over time and how you keep at such a low level?

David L. Brown

Sure. Well, in 2005, when we went public, it was a whopping 6% per month, and it's come down over the period of time, every quarter systematically. Now some of that's our efforts, but the biggest part is adoption by the market. When the market determines that it needs the Internet, then all of the voluntary reasons for leaving start to go away. Like, I don't get the value proposition, or it's too expensive. And we've seen those reasons as reasons to leave evaporate. The only reason -- the biggest reason we a have churn today is going out of business, and that represents way more than half of our churn. Now we think that churn will continue to get better, and partly because we think adoption is in the early days of occurring, and as it continues and we sell more things to the same customer, we have just a much better anchor around that customer. So we're very optimistic that we can maintain this 1% range and, in fact, even get better in the coming quarters ahead.

Unknown Analyst

Great. So I'm thinking about some other metrics -- or success metrics in the business. So your ARPU in 2012 was around $14. With new products -- with the new products and services that you're rolling out, where do you expect ARPU to be in 1 year, 3 years from now?

David L. Brown

Sure. So the way we think about ARPU is, it's really the driver of revenue growth in our business. We grow subscribers, and that's really nice, but only maybe 2% to 3% per year. So we're growing ARPU, right now at 7% per year, and we -- and it's accelerating. So that's how our company is going to get into the double-digit organic growth rate. And we do that -- it's not a glamorous business. We only grow it by dime to dimes every quarter, and that will eventually grow into the quarters per quarter. And again, it's a massive number of customers, 3,009,000 customers at the end of the quarter, and growing every quarter. But if you grow by dime to dimes and then into quarters, you can have a very meaningful increase in revenue. And it's a great way to grow revenue because you're not just having to pay to acquire a customer, you're servicing an existing customer, building a more valuable relationship and not having to pay a cost of acquisition to do it. So that will be our emphasis in the coming years. You'll also see more of our dollars go to -- in the acquisition channel to acquiring higher ARPU and sometimes non-customers. That's what our branding program would be designed to do, build organic traffic, which will ultimately supplement our growth rate, and that will take us a few years, we think.

Unknown Analyst

And which of the products specifically that you foresee as being the biggest drivers or ARPU?

David L. Brown

Well, one that comes to mind is our E-Works product. That one that I mentioned that we advertised in our direct response TV ad, we also cross-sell and upsell to all of our do-it-yourself website customers and every domain customer that comes in the door because it's a simple and easy way to get online and actually gets results versus get online and never be found. For less than $100 a month, you're going to be on the first page of Google search results for your keywords in a matter of months. And that's very valuable to a business that's hanging on by their fingernails today. That's one. We have a product that's got a funky name called Gorilla Marketing. But what you should think about is, this is just a bundle of search engine optimization and online marketing tools that we can sell to someone who has a website they got somewhere else, and the website stinks. They get no traffic. They're never found. We can implement Gorilla Marketing and all of a sudden, they move up in the search rankings. They start getting found. So that's a very valuable product in terms of driving ARPU. And then, frankly, our Feet on The Street program. As that builds more scale, as we go from 8 to 16 offices, and we think we can eventually grow that to 50 offices around the United States, those customers coming in will help drive ARPU as well.

Unknown Analyst

Great. So switching gears a little bit to the balance sheet. You mentioned the free cash generation of your business, that you've been de-levering your balance sheet. What's your target leverage and when do you expect to get there?

David L. Brown

We really don't have a target. It's continue to pay down debt as rapidly as possible. Continue to watch the capital markets. Always optimize our balance sheet to the most efficient use of capital for the business. Because we're in a low-rate environment right now, debt was the most efficient form of capital for us to use to finance the last acquisition we did. There may be other efficient forms, including our own cash in future years. So I think what you should expect to see us do is pay darn near all of our free cash flow in 2013 to paying down debt. That's close to $100 million, and continue at that pace, but we'll continue to monitor the capital markets and we'll do what's best for our shareholders over time.

Unknown Analyst

We do also have mics floating around the room, so if you do have questions, please feel free to raise your hand. That table on the front.

Unknown Analyst

You talked about improving kind of awareness of the Web.com brand name. But you still have the other brand names as well at Register.com. So are you doing that the same or are just -- I mean, I just did the search on Google and those actually kind of came -- Register.com came before Web.com.

David L. Brown

Absolutely. So the way we think about branding is we've got -- we own several great brands, and we're not abandoning those brands. They work well in certain mediums. So Register and Network Solutions our tremendous online marketing brands. They have age, they have tenure and a wide following, and we'll continue to use them in the online channels. When you see our outward-facing media, TV, other PR campaigns, it will always be around the Web.com brand. That brand carries no negative baggage with it, so it has all upside. And our testing showed that neither Network Solutions or Register had much general population brand awareness, but very deep within the online space, so we use those in those on online spaces. We also use those brands to speak to those customers. We have found historically that customers don't like being converted to new brands quickly, and so we are taking our time. We talk to a Network Solutions customer through their brand and they appreciate that. But when we bring in new customers to the house, it's always under the Web.com brand. So that's how we're managing that strategy. All of our new dollars spent go under Web.com so we can be more efficient. But in the online space and to existing customers, we can use Register, Network Solutions, Web, and we also own DomainNames.com, which we use as an interchangeable brand. You might find that if you're searching to.

Unknown Analyst

Do you break out your -- or do segment your customer any further? I guess, what I'm looking for is, what percentage of your customers are simply domain purchases? They just want to buy the domain name versus customers that are buying new services and adding on to it. And then as you provide churn, do you break out at all kind of -- I'm a Domain customer, I've bought Gorilla, I tried it for 6 months, decided I didn't like it, so then I decided not to. Do you provide any metrics there to give us better visibility into how ARPU is going to grow going forward?

David L. Brown

Sure. So first question, relative to how many customers have just domains. Good news, we sell to small businesses. There are not many of them out there that are domainers. They actually have a real business, so if they get a domain, they want to do something with it. So good news for us, our customers, we don't believe that there -- the customers come to us just to buy domain and squat on it. They come to get a website or do something of value. We do focus on selling more things to our customers. And the way we do it, we use bundling. Oftentimes, we will sell you a bundle of things that go together at a very efficient price for you. So you might buy a domain, a do-it-yourself website, as well as some online marketing at real value pricing. And our E-Works bundle, which has, we build it for you, but it has a domain and it has all those things in it. That's really how we go to market with respect to that. In terms of churn relative to our array of products, we don't report quarterly on product churn. But we have said that our average churn for subscribers is about 1%, and our product churn around that is very tightly packed. Domains is lower than 1%, but our other value-added products are not much higher, and that's the result of years of work driving quality into the product, driving customer satisfaction up and making sure we optimize price. So today that we don't have any products that have significant churn. Most of the churn is tightly packed around the 1% range.

Unknown Analyst

How do you compare your positioning versus ReachLocal?

David L. Brown

So ReachLocal is another public company in the Internet space that sells principally pay-per-click advertising programs for clients like I was describing. Larger, small businesses in major metropolitan markets. They also sell internationally. The difference between us and ReachLocal is that we sell leads. We don't sell an arbitrized pay-per-click campaign. We actually build a website for you and we manage the website. We optimize it using search engine option -- optimization technologies and then we use pay-per-click advertising as well to help get you jump started. But what that gives you is a holistic approach where you start to get some organic traffic, and the customer benefits from that because price doesn't have to go up. And we benefit because our margin goes up over time. And the value prop here that we focus on is, are those customers churning or not? Are we creating real value? We're reporting -- we have a churn in our Feet on The Street program, which is our ReachLocal equivalent, that is darn near our posted 1% churn, which tells you that customers, when they buy the product, they love the product, they stay with the product, and in fact, they grow over time. They buy more from us. I'd say that's probably the biggest differentiator between our product and theirs is that our churn level -- they don't report a churn number. We've talked about ours several times being in this range, and it's what gives us the ability to continue opening offices and breakeven so quickly with these offices.

Unknown Analyst

You have this 30% EBITDA margin target?

David L. Brown

Yes.

Unknown Analyst

Why 30%? If the return on marketing spend is so high, why not let that drift down or just where does that come from?

David L. Brown

Well, it's a good question, and we think about it oftentimes. But we really govern ourselves by where can we invest money efficiently? It turns out that right now we can -- we're investing about everything we can at efficient levels, and we're maintaining a 30% EBITDA margin, and that's what we see ahead of us. If we were to see some miraculous breakthrough where we could put money into the market and get a really good return on investment for the company at lower profitability, we'd think about it, we'd communicate it, we might take our number down. But at this point, we're putting -- we're going to grow our marketing budget by 40% year-over-year and still maintain that 30%. We think that's about all that we can handle in the short-term and do it properly. And so that's really what's governing it. Good management practice is governing our spend, not just some other arbitrary measure.

Unknown Analyst

2 questions. What percentage of your revenue is related to the higher-value ad products? I mean, given the ARPUs, I think, $13.70 something right?

David L. Brown

Yes.

Unknown Analyst

I guess, I'm trying to picture -- since the average hosting package is maybe $10 a month, how much of that -- or how many customers there are that are buying some for this other stuff?

David L. Brown

Okay. So if you think about it this way, when we -- before we bought Register.com, we had about 0.25 million customers. We bought them, we grew to 1 million customers. They were a domain company with very low ARPU. So we bought, in terms of customer size, a significant number of customers. And a significant portion of our revenue became domain revenue, which is low ARPU, and then we bought Network Solutions. So today, we sit at about 50% of our revenue, which is in the domain space, and about 50% is in the value-added space. So that -- and the shift that is occurring is more of it -- is faster growth in the value-added services. So that's what's going to drive ARPU growth for us. We use the domain business as a feeder system to bring customers into our business because we know that small businesses who buy a domain -- well, they want something besides a domain. So they come into our feeder system, they get educated, we talk with them and we sell them these value-added services. So over the years, you're going to see that mix shift change to greater than 50% in value-added services, and that will drive ARPU growth and revenue growth for the foreseeable future.

Unknown Analyst

And then on your deferred revenue, what's the average life of the kind of contracts you are signing?

David L. Brown

Yes. So it varies depending on the product group, and if you were talking about a domain name, the average life of a contract is about 2 years, a little bit over 2 years. Most of our other customers have contracts in the one-month range.

Unknown Analyst

I sat in the YELP meeting this morning. A couple of things came up that were really relevant here. One was showing SMBs' ROI. And the second one is, helping SMBs not only acquire new customers, but grow existing ones, which clearly, for Web.com, a major part of your strategy is to grow existing customers. So I'm curious when you look at your product mix, what do you have for the SMB to help them, once you help them acquire a new customer by being found, to help them grow that customer and also measure ROI?

David L. Brown

Sure. So I'm going to answer a question you didn't ask and then I'll answer that question. We do something that's quite unusual. I'm glad you brought up YELP. We've been telling our customers and showing them the return on investment they get when they're spending with us for years. We've been giving them an online scorecard that will tell them how many leads, how many clicks, how many phone calls, faxes, e-mails they get as a result of their spend with us. It's the quickest way to drive spend up and churn down is to, one, do a good job and then tell -- show the person that you're doing it. So we've been doing that for a long time, and it's one of the reason, we believe, why our churn is so low in our business. Now the second thing you need to do is provide genuinely good service and good products, and to your point, help them grow. We're trying to help them succeed online. So we do things like our Facebook product. After they've got a series of fans, they need to be able to interact with those fans, have a conversation with them and hopefully, ultimately, monetize that. We even allow them the ability to sell on their Facebook site. We've created eCommerce capabilities for that for certain of our vertical markets. E-mail marketing, e-mail, all of those are products that allow a customer that has an online presence to engage with a client. Online marketing, very important one. They need to be able to advertise their products and services to the market and get eyeballs to show up, and then we need to be able to optimize the conversion rate so they have an added -- a good cost out of acquisition. It's one of the fastest-growing areas of our business is managing these kinds of campaigns. The SmartCalls program I mentioned earlier where we have a mobile product that you could use to advertise if you're a limousine driver, et cetera. It's a way for you to -- for us to help them to manage their online advertising so they can get more eyeballs, more sales. So those are a few examples of how we help our customers engage with their clients and grow.

Unknown Analyst

While ARPU is more important, it does seems like there's a lot of attention on growing the sub-base. But when you think about having built up the way you did in the domain space where a lot of the people you have are not necessarily great prospects for SMB, they might be consumers or -- so what is it that churn might not be acceptable to be somewhat higher if -- I mean, obviously, you want to bring new people in, but net-net you might be losing people that aren't really great fits anyway, and having to compete on price in a tough business. How do you think about that?

David L. Brown

Sure. In a perfect world, if we knew every prospect coming in the door, we could make a perfect decision, we'd define them better and we'd picked them better, but we follow the theory that when we throw our net in the water we're going to catch some fish and we're going to get some beer cans. And as long as we're catching our fish, we're good to go. And that works for us. We're a very profitable business. We're trying to get better at it. But the reality is, you don't -- you only know so much from an online customer who's buying from you. Once we learn that information, we can still find ways to harvest value from them and create value for them. So even consumers, we have products that we're developing that can create value. That group will eventually adopt the Internet, at least, certain products and services, and some of them will need help. And so we can even play in that space. But we long ago gave up the idea of trying to have a perfect set of customers in the boat. And we decided that as long it was good enough, that would work. And that's really the answer that we followed all these years.

Unknown Analyst

And so with that, we are about out of time. But David, thank you so much for joining us today.

David L. Brown

Thank you, Deb [ph].

Unknown Analyst

Thanks, everyone.

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