Is a Car Produced in Alabama Really an Import?

The Honda Odyssey below is built in Lincoln, Alabama. Can this really qualify as an "imported" vehicle?

From the Detroit News comes this article "Auto Team Drives Imports: Fed Task Force Has Few New U.S. Cars,"

The vehicles owned by the Obama administration's auto team could reflect one reason why Detroit's Big Three automakers are in trouble: The list includes few new American cars.

Among the eight members named Friday to the Presidential Task Force on the Auto Industry and the 10 senior policy aides who will assist them in their work, two own American models. Add the Treasury Department's special adviser to the task force and the total jumps to three.

The Detroit News reviewed public records to discover what many of the task force and staff members drove, but information was not available on all of the officials, and records for some states were not complete.

The article mentions that OMB Director Peter Orszag, EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson, and Jared Bernstein, Vice President Joe Biden's chief economist, all own Honda (HMC) Odysseys. Rick Wade, a senior adviser at the Commerce Department previously owned a 1998 Toyota (TM) Corolla. OMB Director Orszag and Heather Zichal, deputy director of the White House Office of Energy and Climate Change, both own Volvos. Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner once owned a Honda Accord.

And those examples above illustrate the confusion about "imports" vs. "American" cars: Honda Odysseys (pictured above) are built in the USA (Alabama), the Toyota Corolla is built in California by UAW workers (that's not an import), Ford Motor Co. (F) owns Volvo, and some Honda Accords are built in the USA (in addition to Mexico and Japan).

From a previous CD post, slightly revised:

1. Here's a list of 8 "American-made" vehicles produced by American UAW workers, in American factories, but for foreign-based car companies. If you purchased one of these vehicles, would that count as "buying an import"?

American-made UAW vehicles:
Mazda 6
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Mitsubishi Galant
Toyota Corolla
Isuzu i-Series Truck
Mazda B-series Truck
Mitsubishi Raider Truck
Toyota Tacoma Truck

2. What about these nine Canadian-made vehicles, produced by UAW brothers and sisters at factories in Canada, for the U.S.-based Detroit Three. Wouldn't they qualify as an "import"?:

Canadian-made UAW vehicles:
Buick Lacrosse
Chevrolet Impala
Chrysler 300
Dodge Challenger

Dodge Charger
Ford Crown Victoria
Lincoln Town Car
Mercury Grand Marquis
Pontiac Grand Prix

3. What about the Chevy Aveo, which is built by Korean automaker Daewoo for Detroit-based General Motors (GM)? Or the Chrysler PT Cruiser, built in Mexico? Aren't those imports despite the American-sounding names of Chevy and Chrysler?

4. What about the 2008 Honda Pilot and Honda Civics, built in the U.S. with higher domestic content (70%) than the 2008 Dodge Ram (68%) and the Michigan-built Ford Mustang (65%).

5. What about the Toyota Tundra, Toyota Sienna and Honda Odyssey, which rank #5, #6 and #7 for the "Top American-Made Cars" in 2008 by Cars.com?

Bottom Line: When it comes to cars, trying to define an "imported" or "American" car will drive you crazy! The Detroit News should know better....

Comments

[PeteK:]

One thing for sure, some people won't buy a Benz that is made in the US.
They rather pay more for the Benz that's made in Germany.

Feb 25 03:33 AM

[Raodking:]

One of the things that you need to understand that a lot of people don't know is that in most cases the soil that these foreign companys set on has been declared as foriegn soil and therefore that plant is actually considered to be in a foriegn country even though it sets within the US borders. They also establish free trade zones with-in these US plants. Techinically these cars are produced in a foriegn country.

Feb 25 04:40 AM

[GMpensioner:]

Where are the taxes paid on the profits from these vehicles? I believe you'll find that it is not here!

Feb 25 05:41 AM

[captmike:]

Profits?! GMpensioner, this is the car industry we're talking about.

Feb 25 06:43 AM

[BUNKEY63:]

YOU CONSIDER THESE CARS AS AMERICAN BUT WHEN YOU BUY ONE WHERE DOES THE MONEY GO? ......OFFSHORE.

Feb 25 07:11 AM

[User 363953:]

Follow the money trail.
American dollars turn into yens!
Now where is it built?

Feb 25 07:34 AM

[62Daytona:]

3 of the "8 American made UAW vehicles" should not even be on the list as import brands. They are re-badged American trucks sold at Japanese dealerships: Isuzu i (Chevy Colorado), Mazda B (Ford Ranger), and Mitsubishi Raider (Dodge Dakota)

Feb 25 07:46 AM

[Mad Hedge F...:]

I’ll tell you what GM’s problem is. My dad was a religious lifetime GM customer, buying a new Oldsmobile every five years. Once he even flew to Detroit for a factory tour and drove his new prize home. Thirty years ago I told him he was doing GM no favors by buying their cars, and the only way to force them to improve a deteriorating product was to buy better made German and Japanese vehicles. This was right after the State of California had forced auto makers to install seatbelts on new cars. Airbags and ABS brake systems were still years away. His response, “I didn’t fight the Japs for four years so I could buy their cars.” (He was a Marine). GM’s problem is that my Dad passed away seven years ago. Of the original 17 million WWII veterans, 1,500 a day are dying, and there are only 1.5 million left. All of them loved Detroit because it built great Jeeps, Sherman tanks, and half tracks. Their kids prefer German, Japanese, Italian, Korean, and soon, Chinese, and Indian vehicles. It is no coincidence that GM’s problems really accelerated with the passing of the “greatest generation.”

Feb 25 08:02 AM

[Mister Jimmy:]

The Detroit News should know better? Perhaps you could know a little better, too, Dr. Perry. Where a vehicle is "assembled" is quite a different issue than where it is produced. Where are each of these vehicles designed? Developed? Prototyped? Tested? Validated? Component-sourced? Yes, all of those elements go into producing a car and, believe me, the Japanese and Germans are not performing all of those functions here. They assemble here to satisfy trade regulations....and to fool professional academics like you.

Feb 25 08:04 AM

[Usher1A:]

Every dollar that is spent on one of these foreign cars- even though they are assembled here in the U.S.- goes back to the home countries economy. So if Toyota has a profit of $5000 dollars per vehicle built and sold here in the U.S., that is $5000 taken from our economy and put into the Japanese economy.

Feb 25 08:14 AM

[Car Guy Joe:]

It's not all that difficult to determine what qualifies as an import. The profits earned from the sale of an American brand vehicle ( Ford, GM, etc) stay here in the U.S making our economy stronger. The great majority of the profits realized from the sale of the Japanese, German, etc, vehicles leave the U.S. I find it interesting that the media fails to acknowledge this fact while constantly promoting the virtues of the "foreign" brands.
Keep buying Toyota's and Honda's and soon all we'll be producing here is Kentucky whiskey ( and we'll need it ) You can't have it both ways. If you love your Toyota so much stop complaining about our unemployment and economic problems.

Feb 25 08:22 AM

[john s. gordon:]

foreign badged cars assembled on u.s soil using drive train components & sheet metal & frame/chassis components imported from factories in foreign countries.

rubber hoses made by gates in denver. does that make it a domestic car?
> jack

Feb 25 08:50 AM

[Mike InMich:]

There is a difference between the Detroit 3 and the two leading imports Toyota and Honda. The Detroit 3 cars are largely designed in the U.S., employing 10s of thousands of engineers, technicians and support staff. These people buy financial services, computers, software and a whole infrastructure that permeates the entire US economy. They also pay those federal taxes that allow our beloved federal officials to buy those foreign cars.

From corporate.honda.com/am.../
Today, Honda employs more than 25,000 people in all 50 states.

From:
www.toyota.com/about/o...

U.S. Direct Employment 36,632

From:
www.cargroup.org/docum...

Detroit Three employed 239,341 hourly
and salary workers in the United States at the end of 2007

Thus, Toyota and Honda employ only 25% as many employees as the big 3, but now make almost as many cars.

Note, I don’t have the data handy, but the multiplier effect in the supply base is much higher for the big three as well, as they tend to make and buy parts in the US.

See uaw.org for a list of union version non-union models in the US and Canada.

Feb 25 08:52 AM

[Deweyp:]

In addition to the very accurate list Mister Jimmy put forth, there is the tooling built in outside shops. Last I heard the labor costs involved in assembling an auto were less than 10% of the total cost. Design and tooling constitute much more. States where foreign carmakers built assembly plants paid hundreds of millions of taxpayer money for each plant to be built there. In return the hourly wage and benefits were much lower than at union shops.
When foreign carmakers costs increase to the level of domestic carmakers, they will close it down and go somewhere else where they are given even more millions to build a new plant.

Feb 25 09:00 AM

[Paul Killinger:]

Let's go back to what Obama's aides and appointees drive. I noticed you Detroiters glossed right over that.

So the people on the Car Czar committee who will determine the future of the U.S. automotive industry mostly drive Japanese vehicles. What do you have to say about that?

Feb 25 09:08 AM

[Paul Killinger:]

Now let's take a look at the folks who actually DO buy Fords, Chevys and Chrysler products. I'll bet a large number of them (looking out my window) live in the South. And I know most of these truck and SUV owners don't care very much for the UAW, much less what's going on in Washington. Strange world, isn't it?

Feb 25 09:18 AM

[Mike InMich:]

Good point Deweyp
.
During the auto witch trials in Congress in the Fall a man from the U.S. tooling industry testified that the Japanese transplants, in particular, used almost no U.S. tooling in their final assembly plants. That is part of the reason why the U.S. tool and die industry has been wiped off the map, affecting shops across the nation but especially in the Midwest.

These final assembly plants are a facade calculated to be the least content possible to dupe the gullible (press) to think that the cars are US products. The first loyalty of Toyota and Honda is to the fatherland, which is not the US!

The worse part of this tooling trend are not obvious. I read recently that a man wanted to bring some textile production back to the US. He found that it was more difficult that anticipated because there were no longer tool makers in the US who could support his plans.

There is a lot more to building products, like cars, then the final assembly plant. I hope we can figure this out before it is too late.

Feb 25 09:29 AM

[c300man:]

Here is an interesting video that probably shows the future of the auto industry:


info.detnews.com/video...

Feb 25 09:34 AM

[working at ...:]

There are 17 comments plus mine that all agree that this overeducated under worked man is a idiot.

Feb 25 09:42 AM

[Mike InMich:]

Wow c300man. Great post.

Those who read my posts know I am a fan of the US car companies because I am a fan of the US, and know the two are linked.

While I respect the historical importance of the UAW I think they are currently way overpaid and way over-bearing with their workrules. If these workrules are preventing modern plants like the one in the video from being built in the US by the big 3 then cars will be built elsewhere by others.

You can't stop progress and the march toward efficiency. Lookup the word "Luddite". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Feb 25 09:49 AM

[Paul Killinger:]

Speaking of the Chrysler 300C, I had the opportunity to drive one for awhile after they were introduced. All I have to say is WOW! Despite its odd looks, it was truly a world class sports sedan. It was also the only one the Detroit 3 has produced in modern times (other than a couple of very expensive Caddys). Of course, it was designed by Germans and built in Canada. Maybe that's the problem.

Feb 25 10:03 AM

[Paul Killinger:]

Yeah, I'm a Nissan man myself. I've got half a million miles on my pickup and I still get 24 mpg on the Interstate going 75. Too bad they don't build them anymore!

Feb 25 10:07 AM

[babyray:]

Compare the amount of american empolyees. its not even close. The big 3 have been giving decent pay and decent benefits to AMERICANS for over 100 years. Those are American vehicles. If we get ourselves into another world war will the transplant companies convert to build our defensive needs. I think not!! Be American!!! Buy American!!! Drive American!!!

Feb 25 10:17 AM

[wavelength:]

The JOBS and the WAGES stay here, and as for "profits" being sent home as Yen, the Japenese (like the Chinese) actually convert this money into US currency and continue to prop us up anyway. The fixation on sick Detroit and hostility to southern US auto manufacturing is the new Civil War. We are talking about successful American industry here, yet it will be undermined via Card Check and all the lessons we can learn from it disregarded. How about some support for hard working and productive auto-workers in Alabama?

Feb 25 10:17 AM

[jdubyah:]

I have a Ford 150 XLT made in Mexico !!! Are they UAW members. Who gets the production money Mexico or the USA?


On Feb 25 08:22 AM Car Guy Joe wrote:

> It's not all that difficult to determine what qualifies as an import.
> The profits earned from the sale of an American brand vehicle ( Ford,
> GM, etc) stay here in the U.S making our economy stronger. The great
> majority of the profits realized from the sale of the Japanese, German,
> etc, vehicles leave the U.S. I find it interesting that the media
> fails to acknowledge this fact while constantly promoting the virtues
> of the "foreign" brands.
> Keep buying Toyota's and Honda's and soon all we'll be producing
> here is Kentucky whiskey ( and we'll need it ) You can't have it
> both ways. If you love your Toyota so much stop complaining about
> our unemployment and economic problems.

Feb 25 11:22 AM

[ecliptix543:]

Hey Wang - you could at least spell Smyrna correctly. Also, it is now a succession of four way intersections between Murfreesboro and Nashville, and is still a godawful speed trap. Always was. Throughout my travels, I've come across several contenders for the title 'Armpit of the South'. Smyrna is in the top three...


On Feb 25 10:02 AM Asian Wang wrote:

> You sir are a retard!
>
> Nissan North American Designs, Develops and builds the Altima, Maxima,
> Titan, Armada, QX56, Quest, Frontier and Xterra here in the states,
> paying hard working americans like you and supporting entire communities
> with jobs and entire towns with a tax base. Smirna TN used to be
> nothing but a fourway intersection and a speed trap generating funds
> from tickets alone. Nissan also supports thousands of other businesses
> in the US called suppliers. These same suppliers are used by all
> the other auto companies including GM, FORD and Chrysler to source
> produts, supplies, service and support for their products. Its a
> world economy now, there is no us versus them, no national patriotism,
> we were sold out years ago buy our elected polititions. When our
> economy goes south the whole world economy goes with it, it's all
> intigrated now.

Feb 25 11:29 AM

[Mister Jimmy:]

Asian Wang, Spring Hill TN used to be nothing but a fourway intersection and a speed trap, too, before GM built a facility there and put it on the map. BTW, it's sad that you feel compelled to call people "a retard" that have an opinion different than your own. It communicates much more about you, than them.

Feb 25 11:43 AM

[CLH:]

The world has changed and the US auto makers have been left behind. I see little chance they can catch up. (Kind of like the British auto makers)

Many here think that US auto profits stay in the US. Not true!!! They are buying and building plants all over the world and these plants are profitable.

Feb 25 12:57 PM

[henarl:]

Ah - globalization, great for multinational corporations, terrible for middle class working American citizens (unless the chance to buy cheap Chinese junk is a positive).

Feb 25 01:51 PM

[AmericanVOR:]

Let's simplify it. Your mother works hard, secures a business loan, establishes a florist, employs local people, and has a good business that gives back to the community. She got it without government incentives and learned the trade by the sweat of her brow and making mistakes. She has paid her dues.

Then a guy from aother country decides he wants to have a florist too. Your local community government gives him money and land to build one. He builds a state-of-the-art facility and he's up and running. However, he still lives in his home country.

Then the same government that paid him to set up shop comes into your florist and tells you that you must start growing certain flowers and each flower has to give off a set amount of oxygen. Then they leave you to pay for this change and figure it out, even though the market for those flowers is very small.

Meanwhile, the other guy's business is booming. His home country pays health care, so the advantages of his operations there help him do business here. He chose not to pay retirement benefits to his employees, but your mom had already set a retirement deal fo rher workers years ago.

Your mom's florist has a hard time competing and beings to cut corners. Finally, she needs some help and asks the governemnt for a loan, This is the same government that gave the other guy incentivs to set up the shop that is putting her out. Still, the government, the media, and the public drag her through the mud and call her a beggar.

Once she was praised for providing jobs, good wages, retirement, health care, and upping the standard of living for all who lived around her florist. Now she is ridiculed for those same things. She is told to "do it like the foreign guy", but when she asks for money like he got, she's slammed.

Mom is cutting corners at home. No cable, no-name brand foods, heat set at 65, backing off sporting programs for her kids...

Then one day, your sister comes home with a ficus tree that she bought from the other guys florist. You explain to her how buying from mom's florist will help your household. She tells you that her friend from school works at the other florist, so its the same thing.

Feb 25 02:48 PM

[Mister Jimmy:]

CLH, what a baffling contradiction your comment presented, "US auto makers have been left behind.....they are buying and building plants all over the world and these plants are profitable". Globally successful operations do not generally accrue to companies that are "left behind".

Feb 25 05:39 PM

[reality chk:]

With a PHD, one would expect the writer to do some homework on the subject. I think he has, but he is looking for that emotional reaction from the readers that write in . Clearly reading some of these comments I noticed that we turned left instead of turning right leaving focus on the subject behind. This same writer posted the same article last week and ended up getting looking foolish.

The foreign manufacturers a have been playing numbers game for a long time now. for example. While they import one model from Japan they are building a plant in the South to build the same model in addition to what is imported so they can say " we build this car in Kentucky, or Alabama so that makes it an american car". They end up with a plant that has the capacity to build 125,000 units but the overall sale of this model is 300,000 units. Is this now an American car?
It is true that year after year they have increased the numbers of car they build in the US, however, how many of the US build cars have Japanese engines, trans-axles, controls systems, and electronics (content) ? The same goes for engines The same engine is build in the US as well as Japan. to make up the volume shortage. Chances are that you buy one of those Kentucky or Alabama or California cars with a Japanese engine and trans-axle package. Is this an American car?
Driving by one of these plants you see thousands of Sea containers lined up. What do you thing was in there. Good wishes?
Look at the year end sales data on domestic and imported vehicles for all the manufacturers, based on 2007 year end data Toyota, Lexus and Scion imported 60% of what they sold. Is Toyota now an American Car company??

Feb 25 06:35 PM

[User 364464:]

Reality Chk:
I would suggest that you list specifics and not in generalities as not to cloud the issue...I cannot speak for Toyota or Nissan, but I can elaborate about Honda.

Please see below the list of USA DESIGNED, DEVELOPED and PRODUCED Honda vehicles.

Honda Odyssey:
DESIGED: USA
DEVELOPED: USA
PRODUCED: USA (Exclusive)

Honda Pilot:
DESIGED: USA
DEVELOPED: USA
PRODUCED: USA (Exclusive)

Honda Ridgeline:
DESIGED: USA
DEVELOPED: USA
PRODUCED: USA (Exclusive)

Honda Accord
DESIGED: USA
DEVELOPED: USA
PRODUCED: USA (Exclusive)

Honda Element
DESIGED: USA
DEVELOPED: USA
PRODUCED: USA (Exclusive)

Honda CRV
DESIGED: Japan
DEVELOPED: USA
PRODUCED: USA (No Imports to North America)

Honda Civic (4Door)
DESIGED: Japan
DEVELOPED: USA/CANADA
PRODUCED: USA/CANADA (No Imports to North America)

Honda Civic (2Door)
DESIGED: USA
DEVELOPED: CANADA
PRODUCED: CANADA (No Imports to North America)

Acura MDX
DESIGED: USA
DEVELOPED: CANADA
PRODUCED: CANADA (Exclusive)

Acura TL
DESIGED: USA
DEVELOPED: USA
PRODUCED: USA (Exclusive)




With a PHD, one would expect the writer to do some homework on the subject. I think he has, but he is looking for that emotional reaction from the readers that write in . Clearly reading some of these comments I noticed that we turned left instead of turning right leaving focus on the subject behind. This same writer posted the same article last week and ended up getting looking foolish.

The foreign manufacturers a have been playing numbers game for a long time now. for example. While they import one model from Japan they are building a plant in the South to build the same model in addition to what is imported so they can say " we build this car in Kentucky, or Alabama so that makes it an american car". They end up with a plant that has the capacity to build 125,000 units but the overall sale of this model is 300,000 units. Is this now an American car?
It is true that year after year they have increased the numbers of car they build in the US, however, how many of the US build cars have Japanese engines, trans-axles, controls systems, and electronics (content) ? The same goes for engines The same engine is build in the US as well as Japan. to make up the volume shortage. Chances are that you buy one of those Kentucky or Alabama or California cars with a Japanese engine and trans-axle package. Is this an American car?
Driving by one of these plants you see thousands of Sea containers lined up. What do you thing was in there. Good wishes?
Look at the year end sales data on domestic and imported vehicles for all the manufacturers, based on 2007 year end data Toyota, Lexus and Scion imported 60% of what they sold. Is Toyota now an American Car company??

Feb 25 08:09 PM

[NC Trader:]

Does the UAW post links to these articles next to the beer cooler in the break room in flint? Where did all these idiots come from?

Feb 25 08:30 PM

[Paul Killinger:]

NC,

Touche, buddy.

As regards U.S. made vehicles, I know folks who look at the VIN to decide. If it has the letter "J" in front (Japanese origin) they'll buy it. What is it about this that is so hard for Detroiters to understand? Build better cars and the world will beat a path to your door! It's as simple as that.

Feb 26 08:56 AM

[Mike InMich:]

Here is my data.From corporate.honda.com/am...

Today, Honda employs more than 25,000 people in all 50 states.

From:
cargroup.org/docum...

Detroit Three employed 239,341 hourly
and salary workers in the United States at the end of 2007

A company with only 25,000 US employees did not design, develop and manufacture the cars you have listed. Design could mean styling, which can be done by a couple of artsy types. Develop could mean run a few emission tests. The vast majority of Honda engineering is done in Japan.

From world.honda.com/profil.../

Total number of employees
Consolidated: 178,960 (as of March 31, 2008)

So 25k of 178k Honda employees are in the US. I suspect over half of their sales are in the US. As I have said before, the Japs have calculated what presense is required in the US to make the gulible press and others think they are designing and building in america. The employment data tells the real story.

Feb 26 09:02 AM

[reality chk:]

User 364464

I will give you the same detail the writer (Mark J. Perry PHD) of this article did.

Nothing.

Feb 26 10:43 AM

[BenInEden:]

To those who say the profit goes overseas for foreign automakers ... come on! You people are traders and investors! The profit for a corporation goes to the owners (aka the shareholders). If Americans want to tap into the revenue streams of corporations (no matter there headquartered country) buy some stock!

Feb 26 11:11 AM

[User 364945:]

My Ford F-150 XLT was built in Mexico by Mexican labor. Is this an import or an American truck? They are certainly not members of the UAW.

Feb 26 11:57 AM

[Donaldman:]

They are a bunch of socialist who are now behind the wheel of what is left of the Detroit 3.... I can tell you that their attitude about domestic brands is not any different than those of the rest of the country. Once you leave the midwest.... no one really gives a hoot about what is happening to the domestic market. They seem to take great pride in driving more nails into the lid on the coffin. Guess what... when manufactoring fails in this country... it's gonna be a rough day. Let's import everything.... and see how we do with service industries to support our quality of life. Not gonna happen. I am especially concerned about the attitudes out there saying we can rely on importing things like weapon systems and tools of defense. No problem unless your facing off with the importer who supplies you. Wake up!


On Feb 25 09:08 AM Paul Killinger wrote:

> Let's go back to what Obama's aides and appointees drive. I noticed
> you Detroiters glossed right over that.
>
> So the people on the Car Czar committee who will determine the future
> of the U.S. automotive industry mostly drive Japanese vehicles. What
> do you have to say about that?

Jun 05 10:20 AM