Time for GM to Declare Bankruptcy?

Many people believe, and even more hope, that General Motors (GM) has a chance. As William Holstein put it in a recent Business Week article, the company was on the verge of emerging as a leaner, more innovative, and more competitive company by 2010—until the financial crisis hit and paralyzed the economy.

In my last post, GM's Natural Share Level, an analysis of the company’s break-even market share gave it a chance to survive in the short-term if it shrank from 24% to 13% of worldwide sales – nearly half its current size – and slashed its selling and administrative costs by $2 billion per quarter. Management’s February 17, 2009 report to the U.S. Treasury Department made it clear they had no intention of shrinking the business.

Actually, GM has been underwater for over two decades and no one paid serious attention until its stock price nearly broke a dollar on March 9, 2009. Why? It’s complicated, but begins with this simple fact: Over the long haul there are really only two numbers in a financial statement that don’t give accountants plenty of wiggle room. Market cap and sales revenues are those numbers. Then it gets complicated because investors, financial analysts, and professors have yet to make a meaningful connection between market cap and revenue. Oh sure, there’s the price/revenue ratio. To which no one pays much attention because it’s idiosyncratic to the company.

One way to make a meaningful comparison between market cap and sales revenues is with a risk-adjusted strategic score that simultaneously tracks the performance of a company against competitors in the markets for both customers and capital. In Competing for Customers and Capital, I defined just such a score. In economic-speak, it’s the “risk-adjusted value-revenue differential.” Statistically speaking it’s a “standard normal control variable with mean zero and standard deviation one.” In practical terms, think of this metric as a “standardized performance score” [SPS].

click to enlarge images

The chart above shows how GM stacked up against TM over the last 8½ years on the SPS. In this chart the standardized performance score of a company is bounded by upper and lower control limits. These control limits define the normal range in performance between plus and minus two standard deviations from the mean. The mean of this score is exactly zero for an individual company. Over most of their life cycles, the lion's share of companies in all industries operate within these limits and revert toward a mean SPS of zero.

Here’s the first takeaway from this article. If a company’s SPS is greater than +2 over a long period of time, investors have rewarded management with a huge premium in its share of market value over and above its share of sales revenue. In short, when this happens, as it has for TM over 36 quarters, the company is in the business of continuous value creation.

Here’s the second takeaway. If a company’s SPS is less than -2 over a long period of time, this means that investors have punished management with a huge discount in its share of market value far below and beyond its share of sales revenue. In short, when this happens, as it has for GM over 36 quarters, the company is in the business of harvesting its base and destroying market value.

The number and size of companies included in this analysis matter very little – the SPS is insensitive to both the number and size of companies included. For example going all the way back to 1990 Toyota’s score ranged between +2.0 and +6.0, whether the analysis included a single small competitor or six of all sizes. TM scores were the same then as they have been in the last 8½ years. GM’s scores were in a range between -2.0 and -5.0 whether Chrysler and Nissan (NSANY) were included or not. And GM operated in the same range during that decade, as they have in the last 8½ years.

GM’s plight did not suddenly worsen in the past year. Investors have been telling GM management they were harvesting their base and destroying value ever since 1990.

What Can GM Learn from United Airlines?
When you’re running a high fixed cost business weighted down with union contracts, pension commitments and overwhelming health-care costs, maybe it’s time to clean the slate by declaring bankruptcy. That’s what United Airlines (UAUA) did after delivering similar standardized performance scores year after year over the decade from 1994 through 2003. The following chart tells the story. If you want the details on how this analysis works, review my 19 minute audio slide show Y’all Buckle That Seat Belt.

Is there any other way out for GM at this point? What do you think?

Thank you for visiting. As always, your comments are welcome.

Comments

[investor88:]

Agree time for GM to declare bankrupt but the Obama administration will insist on keeping GM on life support for political reasons.

Mar 15 03:42 AM

[John Petersen:]

GM, AIG and the Mega-banks have all succeeded where Osama Bin Laden and his ilk failed – they forced the government to negotiate with economic terrorists that threatened horrific consequences if their outlandish demands were not met. Sometimes the dinosaurs have to die to make room for the mammals. It is not wise to fool with evolution.

Mar 15 04:44 AM

[liveoilfree:]

If you're going to keep GM alive only to keep the workers employed, then it's true that you should dictate that the type of cars made must be in the public interest.

That is, plug-in Electric cars, like the EV1, many and different types.

To do this, you have to get rid of failed GM management, losers like Wagoner and Lutz, and implement some directives that new management must keep people working designing the cars that America needs.

No bailout for Wagoner, no bonus, just FIRE WAGONER.

You can't fix a broken company with broken-down failed managers.

Mar 15 06:13 AM

[oneacer:]

I have to agree with previous posts. It is time to see great change in these companies. An end to the elaborate pay schemes. How about building a simple car that the regular american working class can afford without breaking our financial future.

Makes me sick to see all this greed for their own financial gain at the expense of all of the regular american workers. CEO’s and the like making millions and millions while the company is going under. And I heard that the UAW union making with benefits, something like 70.00 an hour, or getting laid off and collecting 95% of their pay for not working, WOW, incredible.

If filing for bankruptcy is what it takes to turn around and operate like a normal company, so be it.

Mar 15 08:23 AM

[ex GM emp:]

Anyone, anywhere, can crank out massaged statistics comparing frick with frack and get the desired result. This is a great example. Movin' on.

Mar 15 08:33 AM

[303820:]

What's destroying the American auto industry is the Asians transplants undercutting the American workers!!!!!!!!!

ITS A RACE TO THE BOTTOM!!!!!!!!

Mar 15 09:12 AM

[303820:]

Oneacer...UAW wages are less then Toyota's...the difference is benefits and the 25% so called temporary workers that the foreigners hire for $10 to $12hr with out benefits...so instead of you whining about those of us that have benefits, you should be bitching about those workers getting screwed by the foreign transplants!

Mar 15 09:22 AM

[303820:]

April 2008: the Wall Street Journal was reporting that “Toyota Motor Company is now pushing to lower labor costs in the U.S., say people familiar with the matter….Toyota has stopped pegging its wages to UAW rates when it builds new plants, company executives said. It won't cut wages of current workers, but new hires will be paid no more than 50 percent above the prevailing manufacturing wage in the area where a plant is located, they said.”

In fact, months earlier, in September 2007, an internal memo was leaked at Toyota’s giant Georgetown, Kentucky plant laying out management’s plans to cut $300 million in labor costs across Toyota’s North American operations over the next three years. Not only would new hires come in at lower wages—no longer comparable to U.S. union wages—but benefits would also be cut, including reduced health coverage. (New York Times, September 4, 2007)

For example, if the prevailing manufacturing wage in Kentucky—including first-time supervisors—is $14.62 an hour, Toyota will pay, at most, just 50 percent above that, or $21.93 an hour, which is down $3.07, or 12 percent, from its current $25 an hour rate.

With Toyota leading the way, the U.S. auto industry is now locked in a race to the bottom. Not to be outdone, Hyundai of South Korea recently opened an auto assembly plant in Montgomery, Alabama offering starting wages of just $14.00 an hour.

A RACE TO THE BOTTOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mar 15 09:28 AM

[303820:]

Let me remind all of you Toyota republicans that survival wages for a family of 4 in this country is $17hr.

WE'RE BECOMING A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!

Mar 15 09:31 AM

[Cobra 1:]

"50 percent above the prevailing manufacturing wage in the area where a plant is located,"

303820: Ill break it down for you;

1) That is an increase of 50% of any other mfg jobs in the area.... What part of this is confusing? So the rest of mfg are paying 50% less that Toyota is for similar work! That my friend is called a boon in jobs and wages for a local economy! Not to mention the additional tax base for politicians to spend 135% of whats taken in to spend on bullshit!

2) This is also called competition. I know its not what a union wants to see as it makes them look bad and greedy! It also puts the union in a position of having to justify its unruly demands! I know you're a staunch liberal, but at some point you need to think for yourself and see that competition drives innovation!

I have been thinking about the last sparring session we had over Wal-Mart. You do not have to look very hard (Internet, books, economists, chambers of commerce, etc....) to see what the average spend on household goods in an area with and without a Wal-Mart. You can say what you want about Wal-Mart wages, or benefits or anything else. The fact is Wal-Mart reduces every single persons average spend to bring home the bacon if it were. That allows every single one of us to have extra money to borrow more than what we can pay back, you know like Obama's doing to the rest of our economy!

Mar 15 10:28 AM

[springfieldlp:]

Bankruptcy is a legal term. GM may not need it. It does needs the threat of it to convince other parties to participate and complete a necessary financial reorganization. And, yes, the union, stockholders and creditors must all take some haircuts and then we get on with making and selling great cars. Ford just did it so it is not impossible.

If people are concerned that management has been unjustly paid too much then just wait until the legal bills get paid if Chapter 11 bankruptcy is required. And GM will not be a simple or quick version and there will be severe and widespread cross defaults among supplier companies and I'm certain this would not be a good thing for the economy right now.

So while I agree with the author that there needs to be a financial reorganization it would be best if it could be done outside of bankruptcy court.

Mar 15 10:31 AM

[303820:]

COBRA... THIS IS NOT GOING TO STOP UNTIL WE BECOME A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY...LOWERING WAGES AND CUTTING BENEFITS WILL NOT GET US OUT OF THIS MESS...BUYING POWER IS CREATED BY HIGHER WAGES...LOWERING OUR WAGES IS TO DESTROY OUR BUYING POWER!
WE'RE COMPETING WITH THOSE THAT CAN'T AFFORD WHAT THEY MAKE!!!!!!

WAKE-UP!

Mar 15 10:39 AM

[Cobra 1:]

springfieldlp: How has this worked out so far? The threat is meaningless! Why does anyone need a haircut when they know there backstop is covered by the government which supports the union! Why would the bond holder bother taking a haircut when they have nothing to worry about because their backstop position is the same.

The threat of the government hiring a bankruptcy attorney pushed GM's shares in the after market down 32 cents. The only way GM is going to get people to reduce and take the much needed hair cuts is if it is allowed to fail.

303820: So you want higher wages, higher benefits, and a guaranteed retirement? They have that in some lavish countries, Russia, China, North Korea, and on and on. You need to do some research on socialism, i have pasted its meaning. Please help me understand the difference....

"economic and social system under which essential industries and social services are publicly and cooperatively owned and democratically..." How is this different that what DA PRES is trying to do as we speak?

"By the beginning of the 20th century socialist political parties, in alliance with labor unions, fought for reforms to be obtained in the short or medium term. At the same time these parties maintained that their final goal remained the elimination of capitalism and the birth of a socialist society. This two-stage concept was enshrined in the manifesto of the Second International and in the program of the most important socialist party of the time, the German SPD. The political reforms socialists demanded included universal suffrage (voting rights); equal rights for women; a social protection system of pensions and medical care; regulation of the working day, with the goal of an eight-hour day; and full legalization and recognition of labor unions."

I have provided you this link to educate yourself on the direction of the US. Get back to me after reading. Its a good read for anyone who wants to understand where DA PRES is taking us.

encarta.msn.com/encycl...

I hope and pray this is not our future, if it is, there will be revolts as described throughout history as it is stated in the link provided.

Mar 15 11:09 AM

[Cobra 1:]

Another great tidbit!

"The war effectively broke up the limited unity of European socialism. The Russian Revolutions of 1917 provided a further blow against socialist unity. It separated the supporters of the Bolsheviks, led by V. I. Lenin, from reformist social democrats, most of whom had backed their national governments during the war. Most Communist parties were formed in the years immediately following World War I by Lenin’s supporters within the socialist parties. In the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), and in the Communist countries that emerged after World War II, the term socialism indicated a transitional phase between capitalism and Communism. Communists remained committed to a centralized and authoritarian view of socialism, whereby the Communist Party made all the important decisions as the unelected representative of the people."

Lets get-R-done!

Mar 15 11:15 AM

[oilcan821:]

guys who think toyota and other imports are smarter, they are right! imports first put communities into bidding wars for the cheapest deals on local taxes, water rates and sewer rates! then they pay their employees less. ok, what's the first big ticket the local tax payers pickup for the imports? fire protection! any town with these plants HAVE to provide fire protection to fight fires for these companies. who pays for this? the local communities! when the locals vote these levies down, guess what? they pay again in higher insurance premiums!!! when the tax incentives are over, and the plants shut down and move onto the next tax shelter, who gets stuck paying the higher water, sewage, fire protection, and other epa related fees to tear down the old plant? the guys who said toyota and import buyers were smarter!! it's time to start thinking about loyalty and patriotism! the unions have done this for years, and tried to tell this to america! we were the ones who made america great, fought to be able to change plants over to wartime production in 8 hours, and put our troops in safe equipment built with pride!! we also built (not designed!) with pride good, and dependable vehicles for many years! when gm and others designed on the cheap, we were blamed for shoddy workmanship, and it was undeserved! look at the price of a vehicle, and we're only 10% or less of the total cost! the rick wagoners of our companies would like you to think we're the problem, but as stated above, they've eaten our company form the inside out starting with roger b. smith!!!!

Mar 15 11:16 AM

[Cobra 1:]

By the 1930s the consequences of the Great Depression had so increased unemployment and social discontent in Germany that the way was opened for the rise of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party.

Did that say Obama or Hitler?

DOES ANY OF THIS RING A BELL IN YOUR HEAD 303820?

Mar 15 11:19 AM

[bigv10:]

i work for chrysler, i'm not really sure~! but the last time i checked my pay check!! i know i was not making 75 dollars a hour.heck i could handle that. i'll take 65,55 dollars a hour, sign me up. i'll take care of my 401k, benefits. that way chrysler could just worry about making cars & trucks. i'm just wondering if they will let us workers fix problems on the cars & trucks before they ship them out the door. instead of threaten the workers time off if we don't just run the line. they (mang.) comes undone if you want to stop the line. most of all the workers want to build a great product. but management will cut jobs and put that job in two,or three other jobs. then the car or truck is being made out of process(according to the engineers process). this in return makes cause more warranty work per-vehicle. we point this out as workers!! and it falls on death ears.
oh and the money we were to get paid when we were laid off!! was raises we as workers gave up to the company. they were to put it a account (to say) and when it reached a certain amount, the company then was to use the money for them self's. when it fell below a certain amount they had to start paying it again. everyone tells people to save! this was a way for us workers to save. now fellow Americans are throwing this back in or face. now why is it again that the workers get the blame time and time again? i really don't understand my fellow Americans. does anyone remember when Ford Motor company hired their C.E.O.? the price was in the neighborhood of 34 million and that was for the first 4 months of his employment.
i'm sure lots of people can recall when Chrysler was haven trouble before. but i bet no one can recall the union worker gave up (in the neighborhood) 3 dollars a hour(in the late 70's early 80's that was a lot of money). and was told by management "when we get back on our feet,pay back the loans you'll get that back!! guess what we never did! so all the people that say you "UNION" workers are greedy learn some facts.
oh Cobra 1 you say "INNOVATION" tell me oh bright one. what has Toyota done to be consider innovated? what they built off 50yrs of American car company's experience. that they had to pay for.

Mar 15 11:20 AM

[303820:]

Cobra...you want history? look in the mirror...its people with your mentality that's destroying the American way of life!!!!!!!!!!!

Mar 15 11:25 AM

[Cobra 1:]

How am I destroying the American way of life? Because I believe in free enterprise? Because I am willing to take a chance on myself, do something completely different than follow the leader and drink the "cool-aid" without question?

I fail to understand your statement whatsoever! How is your statement addressing the points I have made in my argument? Stop attacking those with differing views than yours! This is the reason our legislators and elected officials are in such conflict! Its us VS. them! Its not us VS them, that's what will tear this country apart, not people discussing their views, but people attacking someone else's point of view.

You and I have had several intellectual conversations on many issues, now you are going on attack? WHY?

Mar 15 11:39 AM

[303820:]

COBRA...UNDERSTANDING OTHERS COMMENTS IS A MAJOR PROBLEM FOR YOU!

Mar 15 11:44 AM

[TB3:]

It's interesting that the author didn't provide validity to his SPS theory by showing what happened to UAL after 2003 when they declared bankruptcy. Could it be that nothing much changed?

Mar 15 11:47 AM

[Cobra 1:]

For example?


On Mar 15 11:44 AM 303820 wrote:

> COBRA...UNDERSTANDING OTHERS COMMENTS IS A MAJOR PROBLEM FOR YOU!

Mar 15 11:50 AM

[springfieldlp:]

Cobra - the deadline is March 31, 2008 - sixteen days away from this minute and counting. If the union and creditors do not get their act together on concessions then the curtain falls and then, yes, we call in the Chapter 11 lawyers.

I think we both agree on the outcome. I just believe that the chapter 11 route is unnecssary and Ford is proof of it. And as a GM bondholder I am OK with 35 cents on the dollar and stock in the new GM. So let's get on with it.

Mar 15 11:52 AM

[User 376760:]

If this is a free country (I doubt it) simply because unions want all the high paying jobs and is not up for "may the best man win" idea. So I say break the death grip unions have on ....what jobs are left. Corporations went overseas just to get away from unions and now no jobs for anybody.

Mar 15 11:53 AM

[Cobra 1:]

Yeah, I agree. Your right on the money. If there is a real and viable threat to their survival, many will line up and do their share. My fear is exactly the same as yours.


On Mar 15 11:52 AM springfieldlp wrote:

> Cobra - the deadline is March 31, 2008 - sixteen days away from this
> minute and counting. If the union and creditors do not get their
> act together on concessions then the curtain falls and then, yes,
> we call in the Chapter 11 lawyers.
>
> I think we both agree on the outcome. I just believe that the chapter
> 11 route is unnecssary and Ford is proof of it. And as a GM bondholder
> I am OK with 35 cents on the dollar and stock in the new GM. So let's
> get on with it.

Mar 15 11:57 AM

[bigv10:]

Cobra

Mar 15 11:57 AM

[Cobra 1:]

YES?

Mar 15 12:00 PM

[bigv10:]

Cobra the term "bullshit" came for you comment before mine. i also never said a thing about a Toyota worker , much less a Toyota worker stopping the line. start reading what youi write.

Mar 15 12:04 PM

[bigv10:]

form your comment before.... sorry for the typeo

Mar 15 12:05 PM

[Cobra 1:]

I am going to tell you one thing 303820! I own a business, I have 3 Ford Mustangs in my garage, I own a 2008 Ford Edge and a 2008 Escape Hybrid.

My employees are well paid, better than most I would say, they know if they do there job, the company succeeds, they get bonuses, they succeed and everybody wins! We hire more people to do more work, because our clients see value in what we do for them, so they give us more work. Its a viscous cycle, but one I am fond of.

Where is the flaw in my business model? We are not union....

Mar 15 12:05 PM

[bigv10:]

typo

Mar 15 12:05 PM

[bigv10:]

and maybe i check mine before i publish it...lol

Mar 15 12:06 PM

[Cobra 1:]

LOL


On Mar 15 12:06 PM bigv10 wrote:

> and maybe i check mine before i publish it...lol

Mar 15 12:07 PM

[bigv10:]

that's great! it works for a smaller company. but as we see in a big corporation. the upper mang. has a problem telling the truth.... flying to Washington on their own jets... boy BRIGHT

Mar 15 12:10 PM

[bigv10:]

you don't have one of them....?

Mar 15 12:11 PM

[Cobra 1:]

No, I still drive if its less then 10 hours, if its more I fly United....

Mar 15 12:12 PM

[bigv10:]

i understand union don't belong in every business. but you can see that their is a need as well?

Mar 15 12:14 PM

[Paul Killinger:]

I'd say all you guys have all pretty much covered the waterfront once again about Detroit's dilemma. The only thing I haven't heard is ANSWERS, and that's because I really don't believe there are any.

You say if we don't protect the American worker, we'll all go down one day, and there may be something to that. On the other hand, protectionism and socialism have both proven themselves to be dead end streets, as well.

In the end, then, we all just need to suck it up and go on. Detroit will never again be what it once was, nor will a lot of other things we were once accustomed to.

Out of this comes the possibility that we can do things differently, and hopefully we'll enjoy more sunshine in our futures again one day. After all, we're all AMERICANS, guys. And CAN DO is our motto.

Mar 15 12:14 PM

[bigv10:]

Cobra did you give in... no way LOL

Mar 15 12:19 PM

[Cobra 1:]

Touché Mr. Killinger!


On Mar 15 12:14 PM Paul Killinger wrote:

> I'd say all you guys have all pretty much covered the waterfront
> once again about Detroit's dilemma. The only thing I haven't heard
> is ANSWERS, and that's because I really don't believe there are any.
>
>
> You say if we don't protect the American worker, we'll all go down
> one day, and there may be something to that. On the other hand, protectionism
> and socialism have both proven themselves to be dead end streets,
> as well.
>
> In the end, then, we all just need to suck it up and go on. Detroit
> will never again be what it once was, nor will a lot of other things
> we were once accustomed to.
>
> Out of this comes the possibility that we can do things differently,
> and hopefully we'll enjoy more sunshine in our futures again one
> day. After all, we're all AMERICANS, guys. And CAN DO is our motto.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Mar 15 12:19 PM

[Cobra 1:]

No, I understand your point of view and respect it though.


On Mar 15 12:19 PM bigv10 wrote:

> Cobra did you give in... no way LOL

Mar 15 12:20 PM

[bigv10:]

have a great Sunday! tomorrow its back to work.. for how long is the sad part. thanks for the fun take care

Mar 15 12:23 PM

[Cobra 1:]

You too Big!

Mar 15 12:36 PM

[Paul Killinger:]

Thanks, Cobra.

If you're interested, let me suggest you read a book entitled The Commanding Heights. I can tell you without fear of contradiction that it was one of the greatest social economic works of the last century.

The author looked at economies around the world and concluded that captialism with a minimum of government intervention was the way to go. Now, however, the Chinese and Brazilians (among others) are challenging that view.

It's left me wondering about our new president (who, by the way, I could never vote for) and what he'll do to try to fix our dilemma. It's just possible he may be the right man at the right time after all.

(I should wash my mouth out with soap after I say that!) But read the book and draw your own conclusions. I couldn't put it down.

Mar 15 12:37 PM

[Cobra 1:]

Thank you, I will pick it up today. I love a good read!

Mar 15 12:50 PM

[bigv10:]

Last year, Mulally received options to buy 3.6 million shares.

Ford has yet to release its annual proxy detailing executive compensation, but the company said last month that Mulally and Chairman Bill Ford Jr. would take a 30 percent pay cut in 2009 and 2010 and forgo bonuses, as it tries to survive the global recession without taking government loans.

Ford's $14.6 billion net loss in 2008 was the worst annual loss in the company's 105-year history.

In 2007, Mulally's compensation was valued at $22.8 million, down nearly 42 percent from 2006, the year he joined the company and collected a hefty signing bonus. He earned $2 million in salary and a $4 million bonus in 2007, when the automaker lost $2.7 billion.

General Motors Corp. disclosed last week that CEO Rick Wagoner received a pay package in 2008 worth $14.9 million, but nearly $12 million was in stock and options that have fallen in value to about $682,000. Wagoner has agreed to accept a salary of $1 this year as part of GM's request for government help.

Mar 15 12:56 PM

[bigv10:]

that goes right along with the personal jets

Mar 15 12:56 PM

[Cobra 1:]

I agree Wagooooner needs to be removed. He was paid by his own (not that dissimilar to our elected officials) henchmen. As for Bill Ford and Alan Mulally, they were ahead of the 8 ball since 06, whatever they got paid was worth it. Interesting point to note, Bill Ford has taken 1 for a salary as CEO, now as the Chairmen of Ford for three years. He may have been granted shares as part of a pay package, but we can see what they are worth.

Its a problem not doubt!

Mar 15 01:08 PM

[Jonathan1975:]

Unfortunately, like most comment posts I see most people are interested in posting propaganda and half-thought arguments instead of direct comments pertinent to the story--which is while I rarely post on these things.

GM will likely need to explore BK, and if done correctly while initially painful to the economy and workers, suppliers, dealers, parts manufacturers, etc, it will make GM and stronger company on the other side.

You can argue many points as to why GM is at this stage as a company, but bottom line is that most industries have become over-grown and are too dependent on unnecessary purchases and irresponsible consumers to keep afloat. Most cars today are designed to last 12-16 years, yet the car companies are financial dependent on the consumer buying a new car every 41/2 to 5 years. For many years consumers did just that by refinancing their mortgage. As over inflated realestate began to correct, all industries, no just GM, had to face this fact. This is just as true in the retail market. Macys can not be in every single town in every city and hope to survive. How many pairs of jeans and how many suits do people really need?

It is easy to attack the UAW or other unions, but that is only a small part of the problem. CEO and executive pay is out-of-balance in this country. In the '70s, the pay differential between executive management and all other work levels has ballooned, just as we are seeing in the banking industry--how can a company justify giving all the execs $500k bonuses when the company lost substantial money for 4+ consecutive quarters.

The American system is out-of-balance. It's funny how the Republican backers are quick to ignore every single mistake and blunder that party has committed, but tries to exaggerate and run with any perceived mistake created by a Democrat. We are not a country of parties, we are a country of people! Wake up! Stop worrying about Democrats and Republicans, and start worrying about Americans, because best as I can see both parties in the end screw over the masses.

Mar 15 01:43 PM

[springfieldlp:]

Killinger commented that no one has ANSWERS. I agree. Well, I have a suggestion. This auto problem is not just relegated to GM, Chrysler or Ford. Every major auto manufacturer is suffering from the steepest and biggest decline in demand in the history of the industry and reporting sales declines of 30% or more.

So, recognizing this, shouldn't our policymakers do something to stimulate auto demand??? I certainly think so. And I think that pursuing policies that help people to buy more cars is a better policy than putting billions of taxpayers dollars into these companies.

The President and Congress should immediately give every American an income tax credit equal to 20% of the purchase price of a new car (to a max of $5,000 per vehicle) provided that new car was built in America and is bought within the next eighteen months. I'd also offer a further incentive of up to $5,000 if that new car has an EPA mileage rating of 30 mpg or more. Now that's up to $10,000 of tax incentives to purchase a new car with money that is yours that you'd otherwise have to send to the taxman.

If they do this tomorrow that ends the recession and helps every auto manufacturer - even the transplants.

This would be the most effective economic policy to help average Americans buy a car and get the economy recovering through a stimulus to demand as I predict this policy would return the US to 15 million annual car sales. This stimulus to demand would have positive impacts for parts manufacturers, chemicals, steel. alumumium, rubber & tires, electronics, etc. Everything upstream of autos would experience recovery and growth. I can't understand why Obama or his five star economic team has not put this forth. What the hell are we waiting for, a Depression to set in?

Mar 15 02:58 PM

[Mister Jimmy:]

A GM bankruptcy is not likely. Treasury Secretary Geithner appeared on PBS earlier this week, and aid to the U.S. auto industry was one of the topics of discussion. He said the current challenge facing the industry is partially a result of a larger financial crisis. “The industry is facing just exceptional challenges. Part of the challenges they brought on themselves and part of those challenges are just the function of the fact that we’re facing such a huge collapse in demand around the world and a very difficult financing environment. And what we want to do is figure out what restructuring plan will leave these firms in a position where they’re going to be viable over time without government support.” Geithner said bankruptcy is not the best option for the auto industry right now. “We’re going through a very challenging period in the American economy as a whole, and as the President said and the previous administration said, a disorderly failure of these firms in this economy would cause enormous damage in terms of job loss across a whole range of industries and in a recession like this you have to consider things you would never consider in a more normal economic environment.”

Mar 15 03:00 PM

[303820:]

We need to stop the bleeding of our good paying manufacturing jobs...people in this country can not afford to buy...and are not buying...much of anything unless they have a paycheck...competition of lower wages at home and slave wages overseas is destroying our country!

ITS A RACE TO THE BOTTOM!!!!!!!!!!

Mar 15 03:09 PM

[nz769r:]

Unfortunately most of the people that want to post comments don't even have to read the article. There are rediculous statements made that are not borne out by the facts. The problem is not the executives, or unions but the overconsumption mentality and greed-is-ok-as-long-as... approach to financial markets.

Mr. Cook's model is unfortunately not explained so one must be wary of the data. However, the application of control limits is misused here. Control limits are used to detect non random patterns in data. You don't need a control limit to see the differences in whatever this data is. A simple t test will do.

I would argue that GM is positioning itself better than Toyota by the data in the chart. Take a look at the data points after November of 2007. Toyota is declining and GM is improving. Maybe GM is doing the right things to turnaround but too many people are so caught up in their prejudice to see it in the data.

Mar 15 03:12 PM

[nz769r:]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I wish that more people could talk to facts as you have.


On Mar 15 03:00 PM Mister Jimmy wrote:

> A GM bankruptcy is not likely. Treasury Secretary Geithner appeared
> on PBS earlier this week, and aid to the U.S. auto industry was one
> of the topics of discussion. He said the current challenge facing
> the industry is partially a result of a larger financial crisis.
> “The industry is facing just exceptional challenges. Part of the
> challenges they brought on themselves and part of those challenges
> are just the function of the fact that we’re facing such a huge collapse
> in demand around the world and a very difficult financing environment.
> And what we want to do is figure out what restructuring plan will
> leave these firms in a position where they’re going to be viable
> over time without government support.” Geithner said bankruptcy is
> not the best option for the auto industry right now. “We’re going
> through a very challenging period in the American economy as a whole,
> and as the President said and the previous administration said, a
> disorderly failure of these firms in this economy would cause enormous
> damage in terms of job loss across a whole range of industries and
> in a recession like this you have to consider things you would never
> consider in a more normal economic environment.”

Mar 15 03:15 PM

[jmrkav:]

A black friend of mine, Otis, told me about the small east Texas town he grew up in. There wasn't many jobs there. Otis' uncle worked in St.Louis at a small steel mill. Hard, back breaking work but he made good money as it was a union mill. A good middle class living. He would drive his big black Cadilac back to Taxas. Otis and his friends were just kids. They would look at Otis' uncle and say, I'm gonna leave this town someday and be like that. Otis left and went to work at GM. He sent his two girls to collage. Otis says now when he goes back home the kids are standing on the corner watching the drug dealers drive by and say, man I'm gonna be like that someday. They sure as the heck aren't going to work in the steel mills. That industry was gutted. It don't look like the are going to be building cars.
As you or a loved one are looking down the barrel of a gun I hope you have a few minutes to reflect on what you have done to this country.

Mar 15 03:24 PM

[El Bob:]

The more convoluted the analysis the more suspect it is. I think it's a load. Mr. Cook has no more idea what's going on at GM than any of those making comments. Unless your inside at the treasury department or GM your guessing. Did GM make mistakes? Yes. Is Obama smart enough to understand what GM's failure, and that of the auto industry (you can't seperate one from the other) will mean to the economy? Yes. Will it take taxpayer money? Yes, but no where near as much as Wall Street types like Mr. Cook would have spend to prop up that failed institution. It's time to stop the gibberish and focus on what we as individuals can do. The talking heads will find something else to talk about, thus justifying their own existence. Brittany and Lindsey come to mind.

Mar 15 04:14 PM

[mattm:]

Nice to know you are short on GM. What a moron. Never mind that millions of people will lose their job due to liquidation (which is what will probably happen with a bankruptcy filing). Why don't you go back to enjoying your retirement rather than trying to make a case for your short position.

Mar 15 05:16 PM

[Larry M.:]

Time for GM to File for Bankruptcy

OR

Time to Finish Off the Middle Class through Destruction of the Labor Unions.

Mar 15 07:09 PM

[joe1234234:]

GM file for bankruptcy? Problem is its publicly owned. It has shareholders making decisions. Its actually a good thing, not a problem. The only real problem to hit detroit is the recent gas crunch. Its not even so much a recession, its the gas prices that did it. Its the worst auto sales slump in 40 years. Now, if gm goes bankrupt, they stand to lose it all. If they survive the latest economic downturn, they will be around for another hundred years. If you ask me GM stocks are some of the most under priced in the market. When a company is in a crossroads like this one, they have two options. They can do the one that royally screws the working man, or the one that is best for both. Obviously GM is trying to do this without screwing people. Give it a chance. At least 6 months.

Mar 15 08:39 PM

[Cobra 1:]

So their not screwing the people right now? Which people are you actually referring too? I pay taxes, I think that makes me one of those that aren't getting screwed? Not sure how this makes sense in your mind, but to me, I have got a pretty big f&*(@n so far. They have bought the votes to get them $ so far, how many more billion is yet to be seen.

Unless you can tell me what GM has spent the billions on so far, don't think to tell me or any other tax payer how we have not been screwed!

And for your first statement that everything was rosie if gas had not gone up, I think you need to stop hitting the crack pipe! Do some research regarding GM's market share and losses prior to the gas crunch, then tell me how well they were doing!!!!


On Mar 15 08:39 PM joe1234234 wrote:

> GM file for bankruptcy? Problem is its publicly owned. It has shareholders
> making decisions. Its actually a good thing, not a problem. The only
> real problem to hit detroit is the recent gas crunch. Its not even
> so much a recession, its the gas prices that did it. Its the worst
> auto sales slump in 40 years. Now, if gm goes bankrupt, they stand
> to lose it all. If they survive the latest economic downturn, they
> will be around for another hundred years. If you ask me GM stocks
> are some of the most under priced in the market. When a company is
> in a crossroads like this one, they have two options. They can do
> the one that royally screws the working man, or the one that is best
> for both. Obviously GM is trying to do this without screwing people.
> Give it a chance. At least 6 months.

Mar 15 09:12 PM

[Thadeus Tho...:]

Here is an interesting insight about the term "Socialism". Many do not realize The city of Milwaukee had 2 Socialist Mayors for many years and both business and individuals benefited. I'm just saying. Many people equate Hitler with Socialism. He was a fascist and used the term "socialism" to get his public to buy into his agenda. I'm just saying. . .
So here is an except of an article at this site:

letters.salon.com/news...


* * * > I'm a product of Milwaukee Socialism < * * *

I still am unable to see what all the kerfuffle is about, regarding Americans and socialism. I grew up in a major American city (Milwaukee - during the 1950s) when Mayor Fran Zeidler brought many vast changes, improvements. He is generally described as the "last Socialist Mayor", see e.g.

www.cbsnews.com/storie...

www.washingtonpost.com...

and:

americancity.org/magaz.../

Extract from the last:

"Milwaukee has produced more notable Socialist politicians and policymakers than any city in the United States. Socialist Emil Seidl won the city’s mayoralty in 1910, as did 21 Socialist city aldermen that year. Daniel Hoan served as a Socialist mayor from 1916 to 1940 and kept the city debt-free through the Great Depression. Charles Whitnall, another Socialist, was Milwaukee’s chief planner during the 1920s and 1930s. On the national stage, Victor Berger represented Milwaukee in the House of Representatives during World War I, and his anti-war stance made him famous. Collectively, these leaders showed a remarkable willingness to experiment, remaking Milwaukee’s urban form. By 1920, it was the second most densely populated city in the country. When Whitnall created a comprehensive zoning ordinance in 1920, Milwaukee became the first city to enact zoning. Socialists built Milwaukee’s Garden Homes in the 1920s, the first municipally funded housing project in America.

Frank Zeidler, originally an engineer by trade and an admirer of both Hoan and Whitnall’s planning-minded development, came to lead Milwaukee by chance. His older brother, Carl, defeated Hoan in the 1940 mayoral election. Two years later, Carl Zeidler signed up to serve in the Navy during World War II. After his ship was lost at sea in the Pacific Ocean, he became a legendary local figure. In 1948, Frank Zeidler, already a longtime Socialist party member at age 38 and a former City of Milwaukee School Board member, decided to run for mayor in a crowded field of fourteen candidates. He emerged the victor, due at least in part to his locally famous surname.

After World War II, American cities struggled with housing shortages, increasingly drab downtowns, and emerging racial divisions. Zeidler addressed these differently than most big-city mayors. “Growth coalitions” of downtown businesses, civic elites, real estate interests, and politicians were emerging as national paradigms for rebuilding the central cores of cities such as Pittsburgh and Chicago. But Zeidler’s administration openly resisted this model. Never comfortable with Milwaukee’s business establishment, Zeidler recalled in his memoirs: “I could see that these men moved in a stratum of society into which I had never entered.” Rather than focus solely on the urban core, Zeidler urged his planners to preempt suburbanization by designing large communities in the rural countryside.

In 1951, Zeidler announced an audacious plan to build a ten-square-mile community in neighboring (and then rural) Waukesha County, a “satellite city” that would house over 50,000 residents on city-owned land. Catherine Bauer, a noted housing reformer, once told Zeidler that his satellite city was “the most progressive and significant move being made in the whole field of city planning and housing in America today.” When the plan faltered due to suburban resistance in the courts, Zeidler’s administration stepped up annexation, with the goal of creating a single metropolitan government for the Milwaukee region."

Growing up in this enriched, people-supported environment, I came to believe this was the natural order of things. Until I lived in other American cities (Miami, New Orleans, Baltimore, Tampa).

But under Zeidler, people had a chance, Their quality of life improved, even if working class and laboring at the breweries downtown. (Schlitz, Pabst, Miller etc.)

Mar 15 09:42 PM

[303820:]

Hey cobra...explain to me how you're getting screwed by GM!

And by the way...GM is using the money to keep American people working. Do you have a problem with that?

Mar 15 10:09 PM

[Livin' in t...:]

No one seems to realize that every negative comment on the US auto workers comes from some one in the south. There is a definite movement in southern states to undermine the US auto industry recovery, to their gain of course. To support this theory, I looked up Mr. Cook's background. And where does he hail from you you ask? That's right, Tulane University in New orleans Louisiana. Last I remember, GM wasn't the big employer there. I think his bias should be put into a chart and waived next to that southern flag.

Mar 15 11:03 PM

[consumerons...:]

What BS. The amount needed for a family of four to survive is $17/hour? How do so many people live pretty well on half that? I do. And while I have no complaints and am rather amazed that there's really people who think they have to be RICH (compared to me) in order to live when I'm actually doing pretty good on my $9/hour, I am NOT ABOUT TO SHAPE MY BUYING DECISIONS BASED ON WHETHER IT WILL BENEFIT PEOPLE WHO MAKE THREE TO FIVE TIMES WHAT I DO (IF NOT MORE).
I don't think the way I feel is uncommon. So good luck. Maybe you can get a job at one of those Toyota plants that you figure "are paying less" when they're paying 50% more.
Better figure something out. Your job is GONE.
Now sales are down 52%. Tell us all what you think of us some more....

Mar 16 01:42 AM

[expat in China:]

303820, take a spa week!

GM is moving all part production to "LLC" Low Cost Countries for "VAA" Value Added Assembly in other not so low cost countries and then to assemlby in mature market.

Unions greed destroyed the auto industry, spa weeks???

Mar 16 02:23 AM

[303820:]

HAHAHAH...CONSUMER AND EXPACT...You guys must be from the south...Like I sayed before...there is a reason why your states are at the bottom of the wage earners and on top of the poverty list!!!!!!!!!!

Mar 16 08:39 AM

[babyray:]

I would do all I can to keep any American Manufacturing co. Alive at this point. The USA hardly makes anything in this country any more. Trade agreements have destroyed out manufacturing base. GM has provided Americans with decent jobs and benefits for 100 years! Some people do not want to work in the service sector pushing papers all day!!Be American!!! Buy American!!!

Mar 16 09:04 AM

[Paul Killinger:]

Springfield,

If you happen to log onto this blog again, I'd like to tell you that you may have hit upon the only solution to possibly saving our nation's domestic auto industry- tax credits for vehicle purchases. And they could be extended to company purchases, as well.

As I recall, the Senate version of the stimulus bill included this idea, but it was cut back on final passage. The problem is we spent the bulk of that trillion dollars on politicians' pet projects, and then followed up with another half trillion dollar budget that contained 9,000 political earmarks instead.

The only thing I know for sure is that the name calling and questioning of each other's views based on where we live that I read here isn't going to get us anywhere. Apparently, we don't need Russian nukes on our doorstep to pick a fight anymore. We're doing a great job on our own tearing down each other's ideals ourselves.

I can tell you our nation has no chance of recovery until this stops!

Mar 16 10:29 AM

[Thadeus Tho...:]

We can't give tax credits for auto purchases. All that money just went to AIG execs for "talent bonuses". LOL

Mar 16 10:41 AM

[Oneofthefew...:]

Before coming to GM, I was a steelworker for 8-years, and I never could have imagined 30-years later that I would witness the demise of yet another entire major industry.

With all the concessions, trade-offs, and broken promises since 1981, the UAW International and General Motors has betrayed us, and there is no sign of it letting up now, next year, or ever. We have been going backwards to a time when there were no unions! If GM is still in business after the dust settles, I feel sorry for the new $14.00 an hour (or less) workers with no benefits working in sweatshop conditions! I guess the UAW can start from scratch fighting and striking again for what we once had.

UAW President Gettle(Middle)finger at the very least should have provided Congress and the news media a complete accounting of all the giveaways, not just the ones made since 2007; and asked one simple question of what did GM do with all the money we saved them during the earlier "better times" concessions. He should have also mentioned exactly what we gave up in order to get the "Jobs Bank" protection, and of exactly how many jobs were lost over the past 30-years, and are still being lost, even though we supposedly had "job protection" clauses in our contracts. The few autoworkers that are left are still getting sold out, while individual worker productivity continues to be consistently raised to a greater and newly unprecedented level!

Increased use of new automation and robotics advancements along with outsourcing and Free Trade are the major and root causes for many of our lost manufacturing jobs in this industry. Line speeds where most of the new technology is used have increased to the point where workers are finding it increasingly difficult to keep pace with machines.

The salary versus hourly ratio is still way out of whack, while executive compensation and perks have skyrocketed beyond belief, and GM has sold off most of its assets (95% as I read elsewhere) in the U.S., and its stocks fell almost through the bottom. Is this a pre-planned bankruptcy? GM has invested heavily outside of the U.S. for a very long time now, and in bankruptcy those foreign assets cannot be touched!

Mar 16 12:31 PM

[slowdown:]

Yes...Toyota did bring the Prius to market...and those of us in the industry know that the Japanese Government subsidised the R&D behind it....meanwhile the US Government gave the Oil Industry what??? $33bln??? to do what? Develope alternative fuels? Where are they?


On Mar 15 11:32 AM Cobra 1 wrote:

> First, get back in the second grade and learn how to write a sentence.
>
>
> Innovation, you stated it yourself, every single Toyota worker has
> the ability to stop the line and point out an area that will be a
> problem.
>
> The hybrid vehicle for one! Ford bought the rights to put it into
> their cars. As for Ford, they looked at the rights they bought, used
> it and innovated a new and better system! Now they have an even better
> hybrid than Toyota! Innovation is change, change from the status
> quo! Obama talks about change and change from the status quo then
> signs a new spending package for 410 billion with 8 billion of your
> term BULLSHIT!
>
> Get back into grade school, start thinking for yourself! As for your
> attempt at attacking me, try and attack the issue, this is what I
> have done as have most others here.

Mar 16 12:31 PM

[slowdown:]

And btw....Time for GM to declare bankruptcy? I say no...they've already re-negotiated all of the contracts that were required by the governement....It's AIG that needs to file bankruptcy...so they can get out the employement contracts and not pay bonuses to the bumbling idiots at the top that did this to the rest of us.

Mar 16 12:37 PM

[consumerons...:]

I'll need a car pretty soon...but my money will end up in NONUNION american autoworker's pocket. Like Paul Killinger said...you spent some months this winter calling many of us out here in the rest of the country every kind of low-life and saying we never had a hard job in our lives....now sales are down over 50%. TELL ALL YOUR CUSTOMERS HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT MANY OF US SOME MORE!!!

Mar 16 02:16 PM

[Oneofthefew...:]

consumeronstrikes reason for buying a non-union product is insane.

I would only spend my hard earned money on products I deem necessary and needed based on factors other than revenge in retaliation for what some idiot said.

For the record, UAW autoworkers have been the victims of unjustified and vicious backlash from politicians to pundits for many years now, and some of those autoworkers may be guilty of only fighting back in the wrong way, or having their comments taken out of context.

I have always done my job to the best of my ability, and have always had the customers interest in the forefront, as I'm sure most UAW workers have done and felt.

The typical UAW autoworker has no absolutely no control over what we build, or what parts a supplier supplies. As every manufacturer looks to cut costs in all areas, sometimes quality suffers. You can't build a quality automobile or truck with inferior or cheap parts. An autoworker can only do as good as a job as he can do based on the material he has to work with, and as management directs.

Mar 16 02:54 PM

[Oneofthefew...:]

There really should be some major revisions in our corporate bankruptcy laws.

Most citizens obey the all laws of this country because if fail to do so, they may go to jail.

For all citizens, bankruptcy cannot be used as an escape clause for paying alimony or child support after the dissolution of a marriage contract.

A legal contract is a legal contract no matter what. If something was legally promised 30, 40, or more years ago, why should a corporate bankruptcy later be used to dissolve that contract at the expense of the other party, especially when it turns out that it was the corporation that was at fault, and caused the conditions to warrant a bankruptcy action?

Mar 16 03:26 PM

[Cobra 1:]

Go back and read the post... Do you have a clue how the money is being used? If the government gives me 17.9 billion, I can hire a hell of a lot more people for a longer period of time then the idiots at GM!

If you think for second, 10% of that money was not used for more bullshit waste, you've taken one to many hit from the crack pipe!


On Mar 15 10:09 PM 303820 wrote:

> Hey cobra...explain to me how you're getting screwed by GM!
>
> And by the way...GM is using the money to keep American people working.
> Do you have a problem with that?

Mar 16 04:30 PM

[Oneofthefew...:]

If the government gave each family an equal portion of all the money they gave the financial sector; now that would be a stimulus bill!

As it stands, the hourly (union) jobs saved only at GM would be 57,000 while the salary headcount is 24,000. Do you notice a problem here? One salary wage for every 2.377 hourly workers!

Mar 16 04:52 PM

[Cobra 1:]

Ill agree with buy American. However, I pose your comment back to you as such. If you are going to buy from a company who is not anywhere near competitive, how long is your item going to have value.

It is the American way to be the best, what we have seen from the big 3 is anything but the best! Know we are supposed to buy there product because if not "we are killing the middle class" and "racing this (uhh BULLSHIT!)country to the bottom of 3rd world countries" There are 300+ million people in this country, approx 168 million that have full time jobs. If these intellectuals like 303820 have you convinced that the middle class is only UAW works (whom by the way, have less than 1 million members) and parts suppliers to them, you can drink their cool-aid, and follow them to see the other dinosaurs!

If I purchase anything, I want to purchase a product that is going to last, if I have to spend a dollar more to buy the one that has no warranty issues, then this is what I am going to buy. How in the world is it that THAT WOULD BE A GM product. My neighbor has had 3 brand new GM Suburbans in the last 13 months, each was a buy back from GM as they are crap! His wife drives a brand new Tahoe which has not been in the shop once. With this world class business as 303820 keeps screaming from the fences about, is this possible.

I will continue to buy American as long as I can buy the best product my money can afford!


On Mar 16 09:04 AM babyray wrote:

> I would do all I can to keep any American Manufacturing co. Alive
> at this point. The USA hardly makes anything in this country any
> more. Trade agreements have destroyed out manufacturing base. GM
> has provided Americans with decent jobs and benefits for 100 years!
> Some people do not want to work in the service sector pushing papers
> all day!!Be American!!! Buy American!!!

Mar 16 04:56 PM

[Cobra 1:]

And how would you re-write these laws.... What is your option when you have a company in a free market economy who is no longer able to compete. THEY DIE OFF! Their assets are sold and divided up to the creditors! That's what bankruptcy is for.

Does this at all ring a bell regarding GM?


On Mar 16 03:26 PM Oneofthefewleft wrote:

> There really should be some major revisions in our corporate bankruptcy
> laws.
>
> Most citizens obey the all laws of this country because if fail to
> do so, they may go to jail.
>
> For all citizens, bankruptcy cannot be used as an escape clause for
> paying alimony or child support after the dissolution of a marriage
> contract.
>
> A legal contract is a legal contract no matter what. If something
> was legally promised 30, 40, or more years ago, why should a corporate
> bankruptcy later be used to dissolve that contract at the expense
> of the other party, especially when it turns out that it was the
> corporation that was at fault, and caused the conditions to warrant
> a bankruptcy action?

Mar 16 05:01 PM

[Oneofthefew...:]

If you haven't been reading the business news for the last few years, there have been many corporations abusing bankruptcy protection after creating the mess they found themselves in.

Vested pensions are somewhat protected, and health benefits should also be, because that was part of the contract, and this was the main reason workers stayed on for many years doing what management said had to be done in order to stay competitive until retirement.

Because a corporation fails to build what the consumer market wanted and demanded, how can anyone blame the workers, and why should workers alone bear the brunt?

Mar 16 05:28 PM

[Oneofthefew...:]

BTW - As I mentioned in an earlier post

What if bankruptcy was pre-planned, and most of the assets went elsewhere like overseas well in advance?

How do the creditors or anyone get their money if that's the case?

Mar 16 05:32 PM

[Crocodilian:]

Author: thank you for posting something interesting, informative, and well sourced here. SA postings are often little more than dyspeptic opinions-- your analysis of the differential between share of revenue vs share of value is both interesting and valuable.

The question that it doesn't answer is: What strategy for a GM, which started with a %50 market share 50 years ago, would have made sense? Clearly, their market share was going to decline . . . but could have the declined more profitably? The experience of the US auto industry is that there is no "Southwest".

Why is that? Your analysis of airlines includes the "GM"s of the airline world (UAL, Northwest, AMR)-- but there's also the efficient domestic competitor. Why haven't we seen that in the US auto industry? It would be much easier to let GM go, if there were some profitable domestic automaker to take their market share.

Mar 16 05:40 PM

[THEOLDPRO:]

I WRITE IN CAPITALS BECAUSE MY VISION IS POOR.

SUBSIDIZED HEALTH CARE (MEDICARE)AND RETIREMENT (SOCIAL SECURITY)ARE INTERNAL COSTS WHICH A NATION'S GOVERNMENT DECIDES TO ASSUME. SOME NATIONS ARE SPEND MUCH, SOME NOT.

THESE COSTS SHOULD BE BORNE WITHIN THE NATION AND NOT INCLUDED IN THE EXPORTED COST. THIS IS DONE WITH A VAT (VALUE ADDED TAX). IMPORTS WOULD BE SUBJECT TO A SIMILAR TAX. IT WOULD BE A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

HEALTH CARE AND RETIREMENT ARE INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITIES AND THEIR COSTS SHOULD BE BORNE BY THE INDIVIDUAL, NOT THE EMPLOYER. THE BASE EXISTS WITH HEALTH SAVINGS ACCOUNTS AND IRA'S.

WITH THIS CHANGE GM, FORD, AND CHRYSLER WOULD BE PROFITABLE AND WE WOULD REGAIN OUR MANUFACTURING INDUSTRY.

Mar 16 05:50 PM

[THEOLDPRO:]

I WRITE IN CAPITALS BECAUSE MY VISION IS POOR.

SUBSIDIZED HEALTH CARE (MEDICARE)AND RETIREMENT (SOCIAL SECURITY)ARE INTERNAL COSTS WHICH A NATION'S GOVERNMENT DECIDES TO ASSUME. SOME NATIONS ARE SPEND MUCH, SOME NOT.

THESE COSTS SHOULD BE BORNE WITHIN THE NATION AND NOT INCLUDED IN THE EXPORTED COST. THIS IS DONE WITH A VAT (VALUE ADDED TAX). IMPORTS WOULD BE SUBJECT TO A SIMILAR TAX. IT WOULD BE A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

HEALTH CARE AND RETIREMENT ARE INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITIES AND THEIR COSTS SHOULD BE BORNE BY THE INDIVIDUAL, NOT THE EMPLOYER. THE BASE EXISTS WITH HEALTH SAVINGS ACCOUNTS AND IRA'S.

WITH THIS CHANGE GM, FORD, AND CHRYSLER WOULD BE PROFITABLE AND WE WOULD REGAIN OUR MANUFACTURING INDUSTRY.

Mar 16 05:50 PM

[babyray:]

I think that the idea that the Big 3 vehicles arent good quality is bogus. It is a perception of the quality of 20 years ago. Check JD Powers. Much of the top 10 Auto Assembly Plants as far as quality goes to UAW represented plants. Better yet just drive a new Malibu it is a great car. I wouldnt drive a Toyota if it was givin to me.I truly believe that if the public would just give these vehicles a chance instead of thinking about a vehicle they brought 20 years ago they would be impressed!Even with that said they still have more market share than the foriegn owned companies which shows that people are buying American!!

Mar 16 05:51 PM

[consumerons...:]

I'm not motivated by "revenge". How stupid if that were true. But I will buy the best product for my money. My decision will be unaffected by all the UAW workers' opinions of what a low-life I am if I choose not to subsidize their pay which is much higher than most people in this country. Too...damn...bad!
For most of us when Mommy & Daddy are done raising us we're on our own. "The Company" doesn't take over where Mommy & Daddy left off. Now...you all have played a large part in the demise of "the company", and you think those of us who feel you have no right to expect it to fall on us to take care of you after "the company" is gone are such stupid, low-life selfish #$%@#!!!
Your wages plus benefits are far in excess of most people's. You have no right to feel entitled to so much more at the expense of all of us "low-lifes" who make so much less. Are we all underpaid? Are we all underpaid simply because the cost of living where we live hasn't been pushed insanely high by people who have managed by strikes to extort far more in wages/benefits than the actual val;ue of their work?
I make $9 hour. I don't live paycheck to paycheck even though I have student loans + child support payments totaling $300 a month. The point is I make enough money. But I feel no guilt at all telling you to stay out of my pocket. You figure out someplace else and some other way to make $40, 50, 60,000 a year and more for doing nothing more than finishing high school. Don't expect my contribution. That's ridiculous.

Mar 16 06:42 PM

[Cobra 1:]

That's my point, its not just the workers, its the investors, management, people 401K's (like Enron), bonds school districts purchase, ........ Everyone loses.

Its a free market! If your business is not competitive, or your costs are too high, you have two options; find investors that will help you rebuild, or run your company the way you always did (GM AND CHRYS) and wait until the boogie man cometh. Well here we are.


What did GM and CHRYS do? Guess thats a rhetorical question. Why is it that the American tax payer should pay for their mistakes? It was not the unions fault, it was every piece of the puzzle that was the B3's problem, but that is where it should stay!

I don't want to hear from any mindless idiots making comparisons with any other industries or financials. It has nothing to do with this conversation!


On Mar 16 05:28 PM Oneofthefewleft wrote:

> If you haven't been reading the business news for the last few years,
> there have been many corporations abusing bankruptcy protection after
> creating the mess they found themselves in.
>
> Vested pensions are somewhat protected, and health benefits should
> also be, because that was part of the contract, and this was the
> main reason workers stayed on for many years doing what management
> said had to be done in order to stay competitive until retirement.
>
>
> Because a corporation fails to build what the consumer market wanted
> and demanded, how can anyone blame the workers, and why should workers
> alone bear the brunt?

Mar 16 06:43 PM

[Cobra 1:]

DITTO!


On Mar 16 06:42 PM consumeronstrike wrote:

> I'm not motivated by "revenge". How stupid if that were true. But
> I will buy the best product for my money. My decision will be unaffected
> by all the UAW workers' opinions of what a low-life I am if I choose
> not to subsidize their pay which is much higher than most people
> in this country. Too...damn...bad!
> For most of us when Mommy &amp; Daddy are done raising us we're on
> our own. "The Company" doesn't take over where Mommy &amp; Daddy
> left off. Now...you all have played a large part in the demise of
> "the company", and you think those of us who feel you have no right
> to expect it to fall on us to take care of you after "the company"
> is gone are such stupid, low-life selfish #$%@#!!!
> Your wages plus benefits are far in excess of most people's. You
> have no right to feel entitled to so much more at the expense of
> all of us "low-lifes" who make so much less. Are we all underpaid?
> Are we all underpaid simply because the cost of living where we live
> hasn't been pushed insanely high by people who have managed by strikes
> to extort far more in wages/benefits than the actual val;ue of their
> work?
> I make $9 hour. I don't live paycheck to paycheck even though I have
> student loans + child support payments totaling $300 a month. The
> point is I make enough money. But I feel no guilt at all telling
> you to stay out of my pocket. You figure out someplace else and some
> other way to make $40, 50, 60,000 a year and more for doing nothing
> more than finishing high school. Don't expect my contribution. That's
> ridiculous.

Mar 16 06:45 PM

[Cobra 1:]

Why is that my neighbors brand new 09 as discussed is such a piece of crap!?

Look I don't drive foreign, I drive Ford predominantly and love them, never have problems with them, am very happy I bought them and in the future will buy many more! I am biased to Ford as they are the only one of the foreign and natives that have for nothing from their government! They saw this coming and took the necessary steps 3 to 4 years ago to make changes, their market share is rising! Their products are world class!

The above statement is a model for GM and CHRYS that there can still be a union, there can still be business as usual, but you need to be able to react to the market! GO FORD!

I for one am not interested in paying any more tax dollars to companies who have managed to work themselves out of business by being too slow to react to the market. As for Toyota going to their government, thats up to them, I could care less. They are in my estimation the worst of the bunch! They have a socialistic government with free health care, why they could not make it is beyond me!!!!!


On Mar 16 05:51 PM babyray wrote:

> I think that the idea that the Big 3 vehicles arent good quality
> is bogus. It is a perception of the quality of 20 years ago. Check
> JD Powers. Much of the top 10 Auto Assembly Plants as far as quality
> goes to UAW represented plants. Better yet just drive a new Malibu
> it is a great car. I wouldnt drive a Toyota if it was givin to me.I
> truly believe that if the public would just give these vehicles a
> chance instead of thinking about a vehicle they brought 20 years
> ago they would be impressed!Even with that said they still have more
> market share than the foriegn owned companies which shows that people
> are buying American!!

Mar 16 06:53 PM

[Cobra 1:]

You are WISE my friend! I would do it just as you detailed!


On Mar 16 05:50 PM THEOLDPRO wrote:

> I WRITE IN CAPITALS BECAUSE MY VISION IS POOR.
>
> SUBSIDIZED HEALTH CARE (MEDICARE)AND RETIREMENT (SOCIAL SECURITY)ARE
> INTERNAL COSTS WHICH A NATION'S GOVERNMENT DECIDES TO ASSUME. SOME
> NATIONS ARE SPEND MUCH, SOME NOT.
>
> THESE COSTS SHOULD BE BORNE WITHIN THE NATION AND NOT INCLUDED IN
> THE EXPORTED COST. THIS IS DONE WITH A VAT (VALUE ADDED TAX). IMPORTS
> WOULD BE SUBJECT TO A SIMILAR TAX. IT WOULD BE A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.
>
>
> HEALTH CARE AND RETIREMENT ARE INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITIES AND THEIR
> COSTS SHOULD BE BORNE BY THE INDIVIDUAL, NOT THE EMPLOYER. THE BASE
> EXISTS WITH HEALTH SAVINGS ACCOUNTS AND IRA'S.
>
> WITH THIS CHANGE GM, FORD, AND CHRYSLER WOULD BE PROFITABLE AND WE
> WOULD REGAIN OUR MANUFACTURING INDUSTRY.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Mar 16 06:58 PM

[Cobra 1:]

There is. If you do an analysis of vehicles sold vs. loss per vehicle, Fords loss per vehicle vs Toyota's (under the new labor contract ratified 2 weeks ago) loss per vehicle, Ford is losing less!

Ford will pick up a good deal of business from GM bankruptcy, the foreign's will pick up some as well, but it will be spread at market shares consistent to the previous months.




On Mar 16 05:40 PM Crocodilian wrote:

> Author: thank you for posting something interesting, informative,
> and well sourced here. SA postings are often little more than dyspeptic
> opinions-- your analysis of the differential between share of revenue
> vs share of value is both interesting and valuable.
>
> The question that it doesn't answer is: What strategy for a GM, which
> started with a %50 market share 50 years ago, would have made sense?
> Clearly, their market share was going to decline . . . but could
> have the declined more profitably? The experience of the US auto
> industry is that there is no "Southwest".
>
> Why is that? Your analysis of airlines includes the "GM"s of the
> airline world (UAL, Northwest, AMR)-- but there's also the efficient
> domestic competitor. Why haven't we seen that in the US auto industry?
> It would be much easier to let GM go, if there were some profitable
> domestic automaker to take their market share.

Mar 16 07:03 PM

[Kman58:]

Many Americans are allowing themselves to be hustled and/or bamboozled.

This is why I say that. Well first, let me forewarn the UAW types that just having made a statement I am going to go on to give some supporting statements and posibly also a few facts to backup the statement. I understand that you UAW types typically have not liked this method in the past, so if you are the type to just break into personal insult then for the sake of your own blood pressure it may be better for you to cease reading this post at this point.

OK, so to the point then.

GM makes mediocre cars, of medicre quality, and they charge a higher than normal price for them.

Taken on the whole most Americans, I believe would support a bailout for them if they would make the cuts necessary to be a viable business in the forseeable future - by that I mean to show a profit.

The problem, in my opinion, is that GM employees want this bailout money from us non-GM employees, they want to keep charging us high prices for the mediocre cars that they sell, and they of course want to keep being paid lavish pay and benefits.

Stated once more in a slightly different manner. They are living high on the hog, want us lesser-compensated Americans to bail them out with our money, this, by buying the medoicre cars they make at a higher price than we would have to pay for a better car at a lower price than their competition. And, of course since they have to this day decided to refuse to cut their compensation packages enough to allow them to show a profit as a company, we also get the privelige of expecting to pay their company multi-Billion dollar bailouts every few months for the forseeable future.

If we are not happy to give them our money in all of these ways, the UAW types tend to try to make you feel guilty for not "helping a brother out" or not "buying American".

Our politicians, in my opinion, will keep giving GM our hard-earned dollars. Because they are getting the money, GM will continue to pay its employees lavish compensation packages with our hard-earned money.

The only thing that I can think of, that would force GM to face the actual economics of their situation and make the necessary adjustments to their lavish pay(which at this point is actually our hard-earned money taken as tax dollars) is for us to chose to quit being "hood-winked" or hustled, and to instead refuse to buy their vehicles.

If enough people felt that they were sick of their money supporting these lavishly paid workers, then possibly GM would finally have to take some serious action and make the cuts that are necessary, not just the cuts that the UAW will accept.

Mar 16 07:13 PM

[303820:]

"My neighbor has had 3 brand new GM Suburbans in the last 13 months, each was a buy back from GM as they are crap!"

HEY COBRA ..YOU WANT CRAP? TOYOTA RECALLS!!!!!!

2006-2007 Toyota Yaris
2004 Toyota Sienna
Toyota Siennas Recalled to Fix Liftgate
Toyota Highlander, Highlander Hybrids
Feds Probe Unintended Acceleration in Toyota Sienna Minivan
Toyota Matrix & Corolla
Toyota Recalls Some 2007 Tundra Pickups
Toyota Extends Sienna Liftgate Warranty
Toyota Recalls Camry, Lexus Floor Mats, NHTSA Warns Prius Owners
Toyota, NHTSA Investigate 360,000 Sienna Vans
Airbag Danger Prompts Scion TC Recall
Toyota Recalls 533,000 Trucks for Failed Ball Joints
Toyota Recalls Near 800,000 for July
Toyota Tundra Recalled to Disable Front Passenger Airbag Switch
Toyota Recalls Highlander, Lexus RX SUVs
Toyota Scion tC Moonroof Failures Probed
NHTSA Probes 600,000 Toyota Trucks and Vans
Toyota FJ Cruiser Recalled For Tire Flaw
Massive Toyota Recall Affects Nearly One Million
Toyota Recalls Prius for Steering Defect

Mar 16 07:23 PM

[303820:]

kman58...let me ask you...are you related to cobra?

Mar 16 07:32 PM

[303820:]

If we had 150 million people that would work around people like you...with your mentality... we would have no problem unionizing every body!!!!!!!hahahahaaht...

Mar 16 07:35 PM

[Cobra 1:]

And again, throw the blame or shift the fact that GM has done nothing! Why cant you address the post! Christ, I feel like I talking to a F(%&EN Democrat changing the question every time its asked in a way he or she does not like!

ANSWER THE POST, DONT DEFLECT! Why is this such a problem, you keep yelling from the roof tops how great a product they make and how much crap everyone and everything is if it isn't made by a union!

You piss me off to no end, I am done exchanging with you. The first couple times I conversed with you, you made good points, showed there is a different view that I hadn't looked at. Now its just blather!


On Mar 16 07:23 PM 303820 wrote:

> "My neighbor has had 3 brand new GM Suburbans in the last 13 months,
> each was a buy back from GM as they are crap!"
>
> HEY COBRA ..YOU WANT CRAP? TOYOTA RECALLS!!!!!!
>
> 2006-2007 Toyota Yaris
> 2004 Toyota Sienna
> Toyota Siennas Recalled to Fix Liftgate
> Toyota Highlander, Highlander Hybrids
> Feds Probe Unintended Acceleration in Toyota Sienna Minivan
> Toyota Matrix &amp; Corolla
> Toyota Recalls Some 2007 Tundra Pickups
> Toyota Extends Sienna Liftgate Warranty
> Toyota Recalls Camry, Lexus Floor Mats, NHTSA Warns Prius Owners
>
> Toyota, NHTSA Investigate 360,000 Sienna Vans
> Airbag Danger Prompts Scion TC Recall
> Toyota Recalls 533,000 Trucks for Failed Ball Joints
> Toyota Recalls Near 800,000 for July
> Toyota Tundra Recalled to Disable Front Passenger Airbag Switch
>
> Toyota Recalls Highlander, Lexus RX SUVs
> Toyota Scion tC Moonroof Failures Probed
> NHTSA Probes 600,000 Toyota Trucks and Vans
> Toyota FJ Cruiser Recalled For Tire Flaw
> Massive Toyota Recall Affects Nearly One Million
> Toyota Recalls Prius for Steering Defect

Mar 16 07:37 PM

[303820:]

what's the problem cabra? you don't like facts?
First I don't believe that anyone would buy three truck in 13 months...second I'm answering your post...you called the Chevy truck crap...I'm showing your blind mind that those that you protect also build a lot of crap!

Mar 16 08:17 PM

[consumerons...:]

HAHAHA The more you talk the more customers you lose.

Mar 16 08:30 PM

[303820:]

CONSUMER...YOU DON'T LIKE FACTS EITHER?

Mar 16 08:35 PM

[303820:]

CONSUMER&COBRA...Y... see...I work for a company that makes the products that you guys call "crap" THAT OFFENDS ME A LOT, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR COMMENTS HAVE NO TRUTHS OR MERITS...So when I show you all the CRAP the competition has out there you, get upset...I understand...if my company had that much crap I would be upset too!

Mar 16 08:43 PM

[Kman58:]

Cobra,

I think that posters such as "303820", and the other UAW types, prefer to communicate in any manner that exlcudes reasoned discussion, for a good reason.

At the expense and possible risk of giving them too much credit, I believe that they basically get it, in as much as that they in some way understand that if they were to carry on the discussion of their situation in anything approaching a reasoned discussion then their cause is lost.

So they typically use the desperate tactics, such as accusations, diversion, denial, insults, and such.

It basically comes down to the fact that they want their lavish compensation packages to continue, funded by us the taxpayers now since they have run their company into the ground, and killed off their own good employer. They want to guilt you into continuing to buy their subtandard product at a higher price than you can find elsewhere in the auto market.

Recognizing this, it would then be career suicide for them to carry on this discussion in a normal, reasoned way.

I do not think their shrinking ranks will be convinced of anything, until thier factory doors are closed, and then many of them still may not understand the effect of things such as supply, demand, and price.

So, I humbly suggest that while it is frustrating to put up with UAW type posters such as "303820" and that poster's 238 mostly nonsense filled posts, I believe that there are many others reading threads such as these. I further would say that they are getting a look into the mind of some GM, and UAW employees and can judge for themselves if they want their hard-earned tax dollars to go to these people.

I personally will not buy a GM product for the forseeable future. If they go bankrupt, then I will re-evaluate their sad situation.

Mar 16 08:53 PM

[303820:]

Kman...loosing costumers like you will be a blessing for the company I work for...you would probably whine and cry about every microscopic defect that you'll find!

Mar 16 09:09 PM

[303820:]

Accusations?=FACTS
diversion?=FACTS
denial? GM AND UAW WILL BE AROUND...AND THATS GOOD NEWS FOR YOU!
insults? I DIDN'T CALL YOU F(%&EN Democrat! OR A UAW DOPE...YOUR BODY COBRA DID.......GROW-UP!

Mar 16 09:19 PM

[Kman58:]

Please keep posting "303820", you are helping me to make my case.

In many businesses that actually turn a profit, the prevailing view is different than yours, and can be summed up something like this "If we do not take care of our customers, then someone else will".

Partly because of attitudes such as the one it sounds as if you have toward customers, GM's stock share price is less than a bottle of cheap wine, having been on a falling trend for years. Good luck with that.

Mar 16 09:22 PM

[303820:]

I should have guessed..you and cobra own a business..of course...unions would be a thorn for you!

Mar 16 09:37 PM

[Kman58:]

That's what I thought.

Mar 16 09:40 PM

[Kman58:]

To your point, it sure does seam as if the union has not done very much good for GM's survival. Add Chrysler to that. And LTV steel as well. I believe they, the unions may have had some part in Delphi closing 19 out of 21 of their US based plants.

Quite a record your, and similar unions have had. I could go on.

More to the point at hand though, That being that GM is failing as a buisiness.

They have demonstrated that they can not make a product that has the features and quality that customers demand, at a price that the customer can get from another car company.

You can blame small buisiness owners, unions, lack of unions, other car companies, the government, or what ever you choose, and most probably will. What I suggest you consider instead to better understand why your company is failing is the supply and demand curves and how price is determined.

The rest of your ranting and blaming and acusations, and denial and such is really just so much noise.

Mar 16 09:52 PM

[303820:]

UAW not doing enough? $14.50hr for new hires is not enough? taking over health care in 2010 is not enough? giving our pay raises for the next 3 years not enough? giving our overtime pay past 8hr is not enough?


"The unions may have had some part in Delphi closing 19 out of 21 of their US based plants"

Delphi moved most of its us production to slave wages countries like Mexico..they split operations and siphoned every dollar they could from the American operation by charging top dollar for every component they sent north to USA from Mexico...A SCAM...

Delphi USA operation was loosing millions before bankruptcy...they cut worker's wages down to $14hr, eliminated benefits and are still loosing millions...my guess is it wasn't the union wages that bankrupted them!

Let me ask.. why is Toyota loosing money? is it the UAW?

Mar 16 10:18 PM

[consumerons...:]

Well....if you go back through all my postings please tell me where I said your cars are crap. That has not been my point. What has been my point is perfectly apparent to all who can read.

Mar 16 10:20 PM

[303820:]

Consumer...the crap part...I was referring to cobra's post!

Any way...you're only making $9hr with a child and a college loan...I don't know how you do it...I've worked minimum wages and it's not easy...I wish with all my hart for you to have a better living...my point is...instead of my wages coming down maybe we should fight for you wages to come up!

As for your tax money paying for GM's loans? at $9hr you
re not paying any taxes!

Mar 16 10:46 PM

[consumerons...:]

I'll be paying cash for my next car. You?

Mar 16 11:08 PM

[303820:]

I just bought a Pontiac G6...had a down payment and borrowed the rest!

Mar 16 11:18 PM

[Cobra 1:]

It is of no surprise to wake to see 303820's posts. Attack, attack, attack. You still have not addressed my neighbors new trucks save for "First I don't believe that anyone would buy three truck in 13 months...second I'm answering your post...you called the Chevy truck crap...I'm showing your blind mind that those that you protect also build a lot of crap!"

This is how you deal with a fact!????

Just exactly who is it I am protecting? When I said Ford has shown they can make it, or is it when I posted that Toyota is the worst of the bunch?

I hope you can learn to deal with reality, America has spoken, we are not willing to fund clowns like you. I am happy there is an ignore on this site, I don't have to read your dribble.

Mar 17 07:13 AM

[Cobra 1:]

I guess with 303820 I'll have to take my fathers advice. Never argue with an idiot, he'll bring you down to his level, and beat you with experience!

You're out!

Mar 17 09:50 AM

[Livin' in t...:]

Here's a couple of facts from the auto industry. In 2007, GM sales in China grew 18.5%. In 2008, first half, sales in China grew 12.7% and for the full year almost 10%. Chinese GDP grew at 9%. Here's my point, we're hunting alligators and their draining the swamp. In another way, the heavy debt load we are supporting in America is financing the retooling of a profitable GM overseas. Why such a crazy thought? Well, we should ask how is Delphi Global doing? How much of that growth comes back to the US? None. Why? taxes. GM doesn't want to pay. Just because we are being thrown a few jobs by foreign auto makers, doesn't justify this insanely self serving practice. It's great to talk about quality and price of vehicles, but that is not the big picture. The big picture is the purposeful erosion of the American worker and net worth of the American household. Here is the solution, and unfortunately it is not very "republican". Tax the foreign vehicles. Force GM to use foreign profits to reduce debt, instead of grow overseas. Competition is great, but it doesn't look like everyone is playing by the same rules. So strengthen the dollar and see if they can keep their advantage. This is about our way of life, not cars. They have come to us for help, now let's use this power to make GM stronger and solidify our country as the great nation we all know it to be. We are not trying to name call or point fingers at each other. Despite our differing points of view, we all feel "taken". We are just not sure by who. Like any good parent, we need to set stricter rules until GM learns to behave.

Mar 17 10:04 AM

[Oneofthefew...:]

consumeronstrike

Making $9.00 an hour with no benefits, still paying for your college loan, married, and one child?

First I have to ask what exactly was your major? Usually people invest in a higher education to further themselves and the lives of their families. I would hazard a guess that the government must be supplementing your income in some way? Food stamps at the very least.

How many new cars have you yourself purchased young man?

What vehicle do you currently drive, or drove when the gasoline prices were much higher? A bicycle?

If you really want to make a difference by going on "strike", I suggest that you form a group with other "consumers", and march off to Washington, DC, or your State Capitol, and make your feelings known. Start a Consumer Union or something like that.

I for one have never knocked any of my competitors products, or have tried to push mine on others, but at least I have made many major purchases in my lifetime, and paid my share of sales taxes.

The Big 3 and Financial bailouts are a joke. It's all politics, and a conspiracy to bring down the standard of living in this country for everyone.

I may have made a lot of money during my career, but I also paid much more in taxes, which I haven't seen mentioned here or elsewhere. At $9.00 an hour you have a lot of catching up to do to catch up to me in that regard.

Autoworkers, union or non-union work very hard for their money, put up with a lot of B.S., and not so great working conditions. I have personally seen many educated individuals quit soon after first getting hired.

The U.S. Postal Service. Now that's a great Union job! I can't stand going to the Post Office, standing in line waiting to send a package because the workers are protesting job cuts by refusing to increase "productivity"! Try that in any automotive plant and you are gone!

Mar 17 10:28 AM

[Kman58:]

In response to user 303820, I have posted your comments in quotes and will address them each in turn.

"UAW not doing enough? $14.50hr for new hires is not enough?"

All, 100% of current tradesmen there, millwrights, machine repair, electricians, plumbers, pipefitters and such are continuing to get their lavish compensation packages, over $32 per hour in pay alone. New hires, to the production line get paid the rate you stated and then quickly step up in pay through automatic raises defined in the union contract. By the way, you guys really took care of your union brothers there, keeping your pay largely unchanged, as a percentage, and bringing the new guys in that low rate. So the taxpayers are basically still , presuming you are a skilled tradesman, paying you well over $30 per hour in pay alone, possibly until you retire. You ask if that is enough of a cut. Well, no. That is to say that you are still being paid far over the market rate while your company is in danger of failure. If your company was showing a profit over the long term then your pay would not even be up for discussion.

"taking over health care in 2010 is not enough?"

I believe your union agreed with GM that GM would give your union several tens of billions of dollars to fund this, part of which they have done. Your union "took over" the funding that GM gave them. Is that enough you ask. Well it remains to be seen. If GM shrinks for the next several years, and then fails when it is no longer too big to do so, then no, it wil not have been enough.

"giving our pay raises for the next 3 years not enough?"

My heart goes out to you. You are being paid well over $30 per hour most likely in just pay alone and are not getting your pay raised because your company is actually on the precipice of bankruptcy. I am kidding. You are paid by far way more than the vast majority af Americans. Be thankful. Most people out here whom are funding your lavish pay through taxes and via the bailouts we keep giving your company every few months theat go by, are not getting any raises either themselves because their own companies are not doing so well.

"giving our overtime pay past 8hr is not enough?"

In my opinion this is a disengenuous comment. You still get paid overtime if you work more than 40 hours in a week.

It is just that you could in the past get paid OT if you worked over 8 in one day but did not work over 40 in the week. If you think that is so terrible, then I think that may be because you have had it so good for so many years. So good in fact, that the UAW has played its part in driving your company right into the ground, where it is now.

(This here is the beginning of your comments again only this time you started by quoting me so I put double-quotes at the beginning)

""The unions may have had some part in Delphi closing 19 out of 21 of their US based plants"

Delphi moved most of its us production to slave wages countries like Mexico.."


I believe it is a fact that Delphi closed 19 of its 21 UAW plants in the US. I think that it is then reasonable to presume that the UAW in those plants must have made them want to get away from the UAW so bad that they were willing to go through quite a bit of work and hassle to get away from having to try to make a profit while having to deal with the UAW. The UAW, in my opinion, still does not understand that if there is no company, well then there are no jobs. They, as gluttons, do not understand the concept of there being such a thing as "enough". Never enough pay, and never enough benefits, that is, untill it kills their company. This particular cycle gets repeated at many unionized companies.

"they split operations and siphoned every dollar they could from the American operation by charging top dollar for every component they sent north to USA from Mexico...A SCAM..."

This is your claim, and so if you wish to offer some proof then that is your choice and the burden is yours. That having been said, I will tell you that I do not entirely disbelieve that this kind of thing happens. So what next? GM still needs to figure out a way to compete and deal with this if it hopes to quit failing.

"Delphi USA operation was loosing millions before bankruptcy..."

That makes perfect sense.

"they cut worker's wages down to $14hr, eliminated benefits"

That may have been done because they did not have the funding left on-hand to pay everyone their former lavish wages and benefits.

"and are still loosing millions..."

Delphi, stock symbol DPHIQ posted positive earnings of $9.11 two quarters ago and a loss of $1.77 in the most recent quarter. I suggest that you may want to check that out on etrade or ameritrade. I believe they are still going through the bankrupcy process at this time. The unions, along with, most likely, some very poor management decisions, drove them into bankrupcy and in my opinion we will not know if they can run their buisiness at a profit untill they have completed being reorganized under what ever the appropriate bankruptcy chapter process.

"my guess is it wasn't the union wages that bankrupted them!"

While lack of the UAW in your plant does not in itself guarantee business success, history, evidenced by the appropriate stock charts, clearly can be interpreted as showing that the presense of the UAW in your plant is such a burden to your ability to show a profit, that many companies that have to live with the UAW are impaired enough by the burden that they tend to fail.

Surely a reasonable person would recognize that thier experience with the UAW over many years played some part in Delphi choosing to close 90.5%, or 19 out of 21 of their UAW plants.

"Let me ask.. why is Toyota loosing money?"

They are losing money primarily due to the fact that comsumers are buying fewer autos at this time, and since they have played their part in reduceing GM's market share over the last few decades from over 50% to barely over 20% and falling, their outlook past this downturn looks promising.

The outlook for both GM and Toyota can be seen partly by the value that investers the world over have placed on the two companies' shares. GM's share price (GM)appears too be under three dollars while toyota's (TM) is just under $63.

"is it the UAW?"

No, thank god. That could not make matters any better for them.

Mar 17 10:19 PM

[pontiac owner:]

The writer of the article could have done everyone a favor and looked at Nissan as opposed to Honda, Mazda, and Subaru. He could have compared GM, Ford, and Chrysler but, to compare GM with TM has to have built in aberrations to defend his pre statistical arguments.

The best articles I have seen are how the steel companies were able to shed benefits and baggage to produce profitable companies and maintain high wages. It worked for them and it WILL work for GM and Chrysler.

GM's management has been especially adept at wringing change throughout the company. Not at all do you want to change this management. They know how far they can go to change the business and by not taking $2B in gov't support in March is a big improvement. As executives go they haven't over indulged with sky salaries. The UAW has good people at work who managed to get a larger share of the pie. Good for them. Like steel's high legacy costs, the UAW's legacy costs and medical costs have to change. Why go bankrupt to get there? It is happening last year and this year.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler all make very good cars and a lot of them. I haven't been discouraged by their products. American's who pay too much for Asian makes (like they are onto something aka the Prius ugh!!!) really need to buy an American made truck or SUV and quiet down. Your resentment is unbecoming and it is so trite. You are not saying anything new or worth reading, listening to, are keeping company with.

The people making these poor statements about domestics need to address their own backyard. Most likely you work for a bailed out AIG or finance company that wants to see the return of credit default swaps to enrich yourselves. $500B+ went to these companies and about $15B went to GM and Chrysler.

Myself and others suffer from having to listen to this "wise guy" notion of having all management and worker expertise at the tip of these uninformed tongues. The hype of bashing American industry doesn't earn proponents any cheerleading points from the greater public.

For example: $30 per hour or $60,000 per year is not that great of income when labor costs are 15% of the cost of the car. Retirement costs for huge numbers of former employees with little health car contribution is the major cost component. Go read the steel article and get in the know.


On Mar 17 10:19 PM Kman58 wrote:

> In response to user 303820, I have posted your comments in quotes
> and will address them each in turn.
>
> "UAW not doing enough? $14.50hr for new hires is not enough?"
>
> All, 100% of current tradesmen there, millwrights, machine repair,
> electricians, plumbers, pipefitters and such are continuing to get
> their lavish compensation packages, over $32 per hour in pay alone.
> New hires, to the production line get paid the rate you stated and
> then quickly step up in pay through automatic raises defined in the
> union contract. By the way, you guys really took care of your union
> brothers there, keeping your pay largely unchanged, as a percentage,
> and bringing the new guys in that low rate. So the taxpayers are
> basically still , presuming you are a skilled tradesman, paying you
> well over $30 per hour in pay alone, possibly until you retire. You
> ask if that is enough of a cut. Well, no. That is to say that you
> are still being paid far over the market rate while your company
> is in danger of failure. If your company was showing a profit over
> the long term then your pay would not even be up for discussion.
>
>
> "taking over health care in 2010 is not enough?"
>
> I believe your union agreed with GM that GM would give your union
> several tens of billions of dollars to fund this, part of which they
> have done. Your union "took over" the funding that GM gave them.
> Is that enough you ask. Well it remains to be seen. If GM shrinks
> for the next several years, and then fails when it is no longer too
> big to do so, then no, it wil not have been enough.
>
> "giving our pay raises for the next 3 years not enough?"
>
> My heart goes out to you. You are being paid well over $30 per hour
> most likely in just pay alone and are not getting your pay raised
> because your company is actually on the precipice of bankruptcy.
> I am kidding. You are paid by far way more than the vast majority
> af Americans. Be thankful. Most people out here whom are funding
> your lavish pay through taxes and via the bailouts we keep giving
> your company every few months theat go by, are not getting any raises
> either themselves because their own companies are not doing so well.
>
>
> "giving our overtime pay past 8hr is not enough?"
>
> In my opinion this is a disengenuous comment. You still get paid
> overtime if you work more than 40 hours in a week.
>
> It is just that you could in the past get paid OT if you worked over
> 8 in one day but did not work over 40 in the week. If you think that
> is so terrible, then I think that may be because you have had it
> so good for so many years. So good in fact, that the UAW has played
> its part in driving your company right into the ground, where it
> is now.
>
> (This here is the beginning of your comments again only this time
> you started by quoting me so I put double-quotes at the beginning)
>
>
> ""The unions may have had some part in Delphi closing 19 out of 21
> of their US based plants"
>
> Delphi moved most of its us production to slave wages countries like
> Mexico.."
>
>
> I believe it is a fact that Delphi closed 19 of its 21 UAW plants
> in the US. I think that it is then reasonable to presume that the
> UAW in those plants must have made them want to get away from the
> UAW so bad that they were willing to go through quite a bit of work
> and hassle to get away from having to try to make a profit while
> having to deal with the UAW. The UAW, in my opinion, still does not
> understand that if there is no company, well then there are no jobs.
> They, as gluttons, do not understand the concept of there being such
> a thing as "enough". Never enough pay, and never enough benefits,
> that is, untill it kills their company. This particular cycle gets
> repeated at many unionized companies.
>
> "they split operations and siphoned every dollar they could from
> the American operation by charging top dollar for every component
> they sent north to USA from Mexico...A SCAM..."
>
> This is your claim, and so if you wish to offer some proof then that
> is your choice and the burden is yours. That having been said, I
> will tell you that I do not entirely disbelieve that this kind of
> thing happens. So what next? GM still needs to figure out a way to
> compete and deal with this if it hopes to quit failing.
>
> "Delphi USA operation was loosing millions before bankruptcy..."
>
>
> That makes perfect sense.
>
> "they cut worker's wages down to $14hr, eliminated benefits"
>
> That may have been done because they did not have the funding left
> on-hand to pay everyone their former lavish wages and benefits.<br/>
>
> "and are still loosing millions..."
>
> Delphi, stock symbol DPHIQ posted positive earnings of $9.11 two
> quarters ago and a loss of $1.77 in the most recent quarter. I suggest
> that you may want to check that out on etrade or ameritrade. I believe
> they are still going through the bankrupcy process at this time.
> The unions, along with, most likely, some very poor management decisions,
> drove them into bankrupcy and in my opinion we will not know if they
> can run their buisiness at a profit untill they have completed being
> reorganized under what ever the appropriate bankruptcy chapter process.
>
>
> "my guess is it wasn't the union wages that bankrupted them!"
>
> While lack of the UAW in your plant does not in itself guarantee
> business success, history, evidenced by the appropriate stock charts,
> clearly can be interpreted as showing that the presense of the UAW
> in your plant is such a burden to your ability to show a profit,
> that many companies that have to live with the UAW are impaired enough
> by the burden that they tend to fail.
>
> Surely a reasonable person would recognize that thier experience
> with the UAW over many years played some part in Delphi choosing
> to close 90.5%, or 19 out of 21 of their UAW plants.
>
> "Let me ask.. why is Toyota loosing money?"
>
> They are losing money primarily due to the fact that comsumers are
> buying fewer autos at this time, and since they have played their
> part in reduceing GM's market share over the last few decades from
> over 50% to barely over 20% and falling, their outlook past this
> downturn looks promising.
>
> The outlook for both GM and Toyota can be seen partly by the value
> that investers the world over have placed on the two companies' shares.
> GM's share price (seekingalpha.com/symbo... too be
> under three dollars while toyota's (seekingalpha.com/symbo...)
> is just under $63.
>
> "is it the UAW?"
>
> No, thank god. That could not make matters any better for them.

Mar 18 01:02 AM

[Oneofthefew...:]

The main reason the Oklahoma City Assembly plant was shutdown 3 years ago, even after GM later converted the plant from car to truck production.

query.nytimes.com/gst/...

Monday, May 26, 1997, G.M. Workers in Oklahoma Agree to End a 7-Week Strike.

The General Motors Corporation would not comment on the details of the agreement, although Mr. Featherston said that all the union's issues -- additional jobs and limits on the shifting of work to outside suppliers -- were addressed. But even if G.M. gave the union a couple of hundred jobs, the settlement could make other union leaders less likely to challenge the company, an industry analyst said.

''Two years ago, it took a four-day strike to get 200 jobs,'' said Sean McAlinden, a University of Michigan labor analyst. ''Now it takes eight weeks.''

We received no unemployment insurance or sub pay because it was a strike; lost over $8,000.00 in gross wages each, (strike pay was only $200.00 weekly and taxable income), and actually didn't save any of the jobs we were trying to save from outsourcing! At the time most of us thought it was the right thing to do, save jobs, and now in hindsight; there was no way for any individual plant to stop their plans.

GM's plan to shrink the workforce and close plants was put into motion a long time before that strike.

Before the plant was modernized, there were approx 6,000 hourly and salary workers. After we returned to work that number dropped to about 3,200, and then again dropped to 2,400 when converted to truck.

Now, most operational assembly plants are around that 2,400 number and producing the same numbers of vehicles it once took 6,000.

Robots were added by the hundreds, and each robot replaces a minimum of two human workers!

Do the math!

Mar 18 01:56 AM

[consumerons...:]

1. No food stamps
2. I had to drop out of college one year away from my BA in accounting and work two jobs to pay child support. Never had gov'mt help. Gov'mnt is good only for screwing people.
3. Don't own a bicycle
4. This is BS. Only union autoworkers work hard in this country? You do not work harder than the guy climbing ice-covered trees in the middle of winter in a howling wind to go ten feet out from the main trunk of the tree 60-70 feet above the ground with nothing neaby to safety to while you let go with both hands and balance precariously to fire up your chainsaw to cut off a limb 20 feet over the line and much to high for the bucket truck to reach. You think your work is harder or more dangerous than that? I got $8 an hour. I'm doing something else now, thank goodness. Point is you people think you're the only hard workers in the country and the rest of us making much less should buy your cars so you can keep "sticking it to the man" @ $30 an hour. Sorry. It ain't flying. IF I spend my money on an american-made car put together by a union worker it'll be because I like the car. I OWE YOU NOTHING. GOT IT?

On Mar 17 10:28 AM Oneofthefewleft wrote:

> consumeronstrike
>
> Making $9.00 an hour with no benefits, still paying for your college
> loan, married, and one child?
>
> First I have to ask what exactly was your major? Usually people invest
> in a higher education to further themselves and the lives of their
> families. I would hazard a guess that the government must be supplementing
> your income in some way? Food stamps at the very least.
>
> How many new cars have you yourself purchased young man?
>
> What vehicle do you currently drive, or drove when the gasoline prices
> were much higher? A bicycle?
>
> If you really want to make a difference by going on "strike", I suggest
> that you form a group with other "consumers", and march off to Washington,
> DC, or your State Capitol, and make your feelings known. Start a
> Consumer Union or something like that.
>
> I for one have never knocked any of my competitors products, or have
> tried to push mine on others, but at least I have made many major
> purchases in my lifetime, and paid my share of sales taxes.
>
> The Big 3 and Financial bailouts are a joke. It's all politics, and
> a conspiracy to bring down the standard of living in this country
> for everyone.
>
> I may have made a lot of money during my career, but I also paid
> much more in taxes, which I haven't seen mentioned here or elsewhere.
> At $9.00 an hour you have a lot of catching up to do to catch up
> to me in that regard.
>
> Autoworkers, union or non-union work very hard for their money, put
> up with a lot of B.S., and not so great working conditions. I have
> personally seen many educated individuals quit soon after first getting
> hired.
>
> The U.S. Postal Service. Now that's a great Union job! I can't stand
> going to the Post Office, standing in line waiting to send a package
> because the workers are protesting job cuts by refusing to increase
> "productivity"! Try that in any automotive plant and you are gone!

Mar 18 05:19 PM

[Oneofthefew...:]

consumeronstrike

Thank you for answering some of my assumptions. I may have been wrong in guessing about food stamps or the bicycle; but you did manage to shed more light about yourself in mentioning child support payments.

I tried sticking to the facts, and tried bringing up certain points as to why wages have gone as high as they did in the auto industry, and you continue to show your ignorance by comparing apples to oranges.

Yes there are many non-union and dangerous jobs out there paying much less, with less or no benefits. But, if that's the only work you could find, or do at the time, it wasn't my fault, or someone elses.

Nobody can force anyone to do any type of work. That you chose to cut down trees for $8.00 an hour during the winter... whoop p doop! That was your choice!

How many of your paid work hours were actually spent up in a tree dangling while cutting branches?

This isn't the first time older workers such as myself have experienced a major downturn in the economy, and in order to support our families, were forced to find work other than our regular trade or specialty, and for much less. During those other hard times we never rambled on at the expense of anyone still having a better paying job, and had only hoped that better times would return soon, so that we could again provide better for our families.

Please stop blaming unions for your financial predicament. Some of your mess was created by yourself, and if you ever do find yourself needing government support or help, some of it is provided by people making much more contributions in the form of taxes, which you don't contribute much of at all!

I won't even get into your thoughts about buying a new car, because realistically, I'll probably be dead before you could afford or find a loan, or have saved enough to buy buy one, let alone the TAXES.

GOT IT YET???????

Mar 19 09:58 AM

[Cobra 1:]

Well after all this time, I guess we are all in now! They gave 5 Billion to the suppliers, that seals the deal as far as I am concerned. Why would they give the suppliers the cash and then force a BK for GM????? Chrys may still be allowed (and rightly so) to go under.

Time to buy GM stock, you know all the DEMs are going to get their retirement coffers filled with boat loads of donations from the unions and GM!

I understand the growing concern the BO was and is inept at being the leader of this nation. He still panders just like the rest of the crooks in DC!

Mar 19 01:49 PM

[consumerons...:]

Oneofthefewleftnuts
You know nothing about me. All you have are presumptuous assumptions. I doubt very much you are older than I am. I spent 16 years of my life seving this country. 2 hitches in the US Army and 2 in the US Navy. Navy conbat ribbon twice. A fall down steep metal steps on my last ship ended my military career. I was put out with a bad back even though I wanted to finish my career. They said if I wasn't fit to go to sea I couldn't stay in even though all my training was on shore-based equipment.
So I'm out. An electronics technican with years of experience and no one will hire me for any kind of decent job. If I try not telling them about my back they still want to see my DD214. It's right there in black and white. Restaurant jobs are all there are. So a judge with a chip on his shoulder sets child support at $150 a week for a guy that's clearing $200 a week at the time. They're only allowed to take half your pay. So what half my pay doesn't cover gets piled into this "back support owed" account. I'll be paying it till I'm dead. So what? Does any of this make you a better person than I am? Bite me. I'm no "young man" either. I gave this country my youth - all of it. And no, I had no business living on pain pills hauling chainsaws up trees. I finally had a chance to earn more than minimum wage.
You people making $30 an hour with benefits have no idea how good you've got it. For 15 years my life was a nightmare in which I was being hauled in front of a judge every other week and threatened with being thrown in jail for not making enough money. This when sometimes I didn't even have a home. Sometimes I didn't have a car, either.
And yes, dammit, yes I did learn how to live on almost nothing. You bet your ass I did. I had to. And yes I'm finally past the worst hell I've ever been through and whether you choose to believe it or not feel like I'm doing damn well on my $9 an hour. Good day.

Mar 19 04:54 PM

[Kman58:]

Consumeronstrike,

Thanks for serving.

From a fellow veterin.

Hooah,
Kman58


On Mar 19 04:54 PM consumeronstrike wrote:

> Oneofthefewleftnuts
> You know nothing about me. All you have are presumptuous assumptions.
> I doubt very much you are older than I am. I spent 16 years of my
> life seving this country. 2 hitches in the US Army and 2 in the US
> Navy. Navy conbat ribbon twice. A fall down steep metal steps on
> my last ship ended my military career. I was put out with a bad back
> even though I wanted to finish my career. They said if I wasn't fit
> to go to sea I couldn't stay in even though all my training was on
> shore-based equipment.
> So I'm out. An electronics technican with years of experience and
> no one will hire me for any kind of decent job. If I try not telling
> them about my back they still want to see my DD214. It's right there
> in black and white. Restaurant jobs are all there are. So a judge
> with a chip on his shoulder sets child support at $150 a week for
> a guy that's clearing $200 a week at the time. They're only allowed
> to take half your pay. So what half my pay doesn't cover gets piled
> into this "back support owed" account. I'll be paying it till I'm
> dead. So what? Does any of this make you a better person than I am?
> Bite me. I'm no "young man" either. I gave this country my youth
> - all of it. And no, I had no business living on pain pills hauling
> chainsaws up trees. I finally had a chance to earn more than minimum
> wage.
> You people making $30 an hour with benefits have no idea how good
> you've got it. For 15 years my life was a nightmare in which I was
> being hauled in front of a judge every other week and threatened
> with being thrown in jail for not making enough money. This when
> sometimes I didn't even have a home. Sometimes I didn't have a car,
> either.
> And yes, dammit, yes I did learn how to live on almost nothing. You
> bet your ass I did. I had to. And yes I'm finally past the worst
> hell I've ever been through and whether you choose to believe it
> or not feel like I'm doing damn well on my $9 an hour. Good day.

Mar 19 06:41 PM

[consumerons...:]

Kman 58
Thanks. They're so clueless. We really do owe them nothing. Nothing but a pink slip next time they go on strike in an area where thousands of people a week have to drive by that would give anything and JUMP at the chance to take their damn job for half the pay they already make even without the benefits they already have. Happened in my home town. Once-booming industrial base. Gone. Maybe being on the inside blinds a person to it and they can't see it till they move away to another area where everyone does fine without unions, there's no "us vs. them" mentality, people enjoy their jobs and have fun at work, and the cost of living hasn't been raised to insane levels by a bunch of hooligans that graduated high-school and think they should get paid like they graduated college.
And it's not like I'm some white-collar guy with a cushy job, either. I didn't get to finish college. Had to drop out a year short of my BA in accounting to work two jobs to try to pay child support set at an insane level. So I'm no "better" than they are. But I'm damned if they're that much "better" than I am, either. They're not so much "better" that all of us who make $9, $10, or $12 an hour in the rest of the country should feel compelled to plan our spending so that we help them keep their unsustainably high wages. Listen to some of these posts dripping with self-righteousness. They don't even know they make a lot of money. They just think everyone down here making $9 - 12 an hour are unmotivated, stupid, ignorant, lazy, unresourceful no-account and largely uneducated hillbillies that shouldn't question their right to get outrageous wages/benefits for a job "cousin Jethro" could easily learn.


On Mar 19 06:41 PM Kman58 wrote:

> Consumeronstrike,
>
> Thanks for serving.
>
> From a fellow veterin.
>
> Hooah,
> Kman58

Mar 19 07:33 PM

[User 357469:]

I guess if I were a GM union employee being paid $73 per hour, I would be worried about losing my job too, and likely make up all kinds of stories to support my stand. Before you do so, you really should get your facts straight. First of all, GM is not the backbone of the US as both its management and union would like us to believe. They fear for their personal jobs and that is all. In reality, the failure of GM would have very little impact on the US economy and would save taxpayers billions of dollars in bailout funds. There are many other auto manufacturers ready and able to pick up any slack that a GM failure would create. And that would include employment for all those who were actually willing to work for an honest day's pay.

As for your Toyota recall claims, perhaps you would like to see a list of GM recalls as well, the result of garbage made by those very same overpaid UAW workers.

GM recalls more than 2M vehicles

money.cnn.com/2005/04/...

GM Recalls 850,000 Vehicles in the U.S.

www.wcbs880.com/pages/...?

GM recalls 944,000 vehicles with heated wiper fluid feature

www.cbc.ca/consumer/st...

GM Recalls Nearly 300,000 Cars For Shift Lever Issue

www.manufacturing.net/...=

Threat of fire forces huge GM recal

www.thestar.com/articl...

GM recalls sedans over fire risk

www.cbc.ca/consumer/st...

GM recalls more than 276,000 vehicles for gear fix

www.reuters.com/articl...

GM recalls Saturn Vue SUVs

www.cbc.ca/consumer/st...

GM Recalls 277,000 New Vehicles

www.citynews.ca/news/n...

GM recalls over two million vehicles in six recalls

www.canadiandriver.com...

GM recalls two cars for fire hazard

www2.canada.com/calgar...

GM recalling vehicles to fix shift lever problem

en.autos.sympatico.msn...

GM Recalls 09 Buick Enclaves, Chevrolet Traverses, GMC Acadias, Saturn Outlooks

www.usrecallnews.com/2...

Quite frankly 303820, we are in the situation we are now in because of those who sadly think like you. You are wrong. Cobra is right.

On Mar 16 07:23 PM 303820 wrote:

> HEY COBRA ..YOU WANT CRAP? TOYOTA RECALLS!!!!!!
>
> 2006-2007 Toyota Yaris
> 2004 Toyota Sienna
> Toyota Siennas Recalled to Fix Liftgate
> Toyota Highlander, Highlander Hybrids
> Feds Probe Unintended Acceleration in Toyota Sienna Minivan
> Toyota Matrix &amp; Corolla
> Toyota Recalls Some 2007 Tundra Pickups
> Toyota Extends Sienna Liftgate Warranty
> Toyota Recalls Camry, Lexus Floor Mats, NHTSA Warns Prius Owners
>
> Toyota, NHTSA Investigate 360,000 Sienna Vans
> Airbag Danger Prompts Scion TC Recall
> Toyota Recalls 533,000 Trucks for Failed Ball Joints
> Toyota Recalls Near 800,000 for July
> Toyota Tundra Recalled to Disable Front Passenger Airbag Switch
>
> Toyota Recalls Highlander, Lexus RX SUVs
> Toyota Scion tC Moonroof Failures Probed
> NHTSA Probes 600,000 Toyota Trucks and Vans
> Toyota FJ Cruiser Recalled For Tire Flaw
> Massive Toyota Recall Affects Nearly One Million
> Toyota Recalls Prius for Steering Defect

Mar 19 09:36 PM

[Oneofthefew...:]

Consumeronstrike

Your life reads like a typical country song; maybe you should think of song writing as a career?

Every military veteran I personally know who was injured while on active duty receives disability and V.A. benefits.

When I first started working in the Steel Mill it was for $2.75 an hour for an entry level electrician helper position. For a few months prior to that I worked for the county, fresh out of vocational high school, also as an electrician helper for $2.25. For that $0.50 an hour difference, I gave up working in a clean and relatively safe place, to work in a dirty, harsh, and very dangerous environment; and I never resented doing that.

Who could have imagined 8-years later I would have been out on the street along with 10's of thousands of other workers looking for work when not many employers were hiring, and the ones that were, were looking to see how low would you go.

Does this sound very familiar today? The period was 1969-1977, and the job was in the rust belt.

I'm not trying to post a resume here or seek sympathy for myself, the american auto industry, the union, or anyone else.

I never knocked any of the competition in any way, and previously stated that it didn't matter, union or non-union, work in any auto plant, even the transplants is not easy.

Most union people in any job decide to stay with their employer because of the promises they were made very long ago under contract such as getting a retirement pension.

Did you know that General Motors Foundry workers can retire in 25-years? I don't wonder why because I know their working conditions were even worse than the Steel Mills; (I have 3-years foundry service until it closed and the work went to Canada); and some of those workers didn't live to see retirement, and some died a few months after. What about Coal Miners, Asbestos, ...etc

We can post all type of vehicle recall data, foreign and domestic, but where does that get us?

User 357469

Are you one of the southern state senators? You sure sound like one of those boys!

The $73.00 an hour MYTH has been disproven by many experts for many months now!

Why are the foreign transplants rushing to lower the wages of their workers if that was really the case?

Why are the Senators in all of the "Right To Work" states so anti-union and especially now?

How much kickback did those Senators getting from the foreign transplants?

Would the foreign transplants have located where they did if they were not "RTW" or they didn't receive massive local and state government incentives at taxpayer expense?

Wake up people. This is a race to the bottom. Everyones wages are going lower. It's just a matter of time.

As for GM and bankruptcy, I honestly don't care anymore. My co-workers and I have done exactly what GM demanded over the past 25-years to remain competitive, and jobs continued to be lost, and here we are. The union scumbags of society.

Mar 20 09:27 AM

[Oneofthefew...:]

consumeronstrike

I know you hate the government and union autoworkers, but maybe I can help you out a little.

Please go to the following website:

www.military.com/benef...

You may be eligible for Disability Compensation if you have a service-related disability and you were discharged under other than dishonorable conditions.

If you are military veteran with a service-related disability you may qualify for over $3,100 in monthly benefits. These benefits are paid to veterans who have injuries or diseases that happened while on active duty, or were made worse by active military service. It is also paid to certain veterans disabled from VA health care. These benefits are TAX-FREE.

Note: You may be paid additional amounts if:

* you have very severe disabilities or loss of limb(s)
* you have a spouse, child(ren), or dependent parent(s)
* you have a seriously disabled spouse

GOD Bless You, and try to have a better day.

Mar 20 10:02 AM

[Oneofthefew...:]

consumeronstrike

Ohhh BTW

Isn't it against the law for any employer to discriminate against anyone with a handicap or disability?

Don't employers favor hiring veterans?

If you already have experience as an electronics technician, I'm sure there are many opportunities available out there which wouldn't require back breaking work, rather than not having a degree in accounting holding you back

Just trying to help.

Mar 20 10:12 AM

[Oneofthefew...:]

On December 09, 2008 20:01 pm consumeronstrike wrote:

"Bailout Watch: Heading for a Populist Backlash?

What part of " I'm 52 yrs old" did you not hear? And as far as going to sea I spent 12 yrs active duty U.S. Navy, thank you. I was a career man till a bad fall wrecked my back. I in fact could EASILY get 80-100 % disability if I tried. I'd rather work."

Why would anyone not seek 80 - 100% disability pay TAX-FREE, but be happy to work as a cook for $8.00 and hour and pay taxes?

Your other posts say that you are trying to fund your future retirement with investments; that you are intelligent enough to know exactly where to invest your hard earned money; yet you fail to apply for up to $3,100.00 in tax-free benefits in order to make $1,386.00 before taxes because I'm guessing that you are a proud working man?

You are bitter at the judge because you were ordered to pay child support in excess of half of your after tax earnings, and the unpaid $50.00 weekly balance goes to a "back support owed" account.

Sounds more like a getting even with your ex-wife and child sort of thing to me, and not a very intelligent thing to do, especially when you could use some extra money for the future.

Mar 20 11:17 AM

[consumerons...:]

My oh my. Anyone who goes to that much trouble AND sincerely seems to want to offer helpful advice, well, deserves an answer. I'll tell you what. Even people that KNOW me frustrate me over this but I'll tell you this anyway since you went to all that trouble. I will warn you I don't blame people one bit for finding it hard to believe that our America did this. If I were someone else and someone told me what I'm about to tell you I probably wouldn't believe it myself.
In 1989 I was sent home from the military with a bad back, almost $39,000 in severance pay and rated 80% disabled. I wrote a check for a house. When we split up the judge gave her the house. Yeh, the house I bought & paid for with my disability severance pay from the military. I had done what any trusting spouse often does and put the house in both our names, thus "commingling the funds", though of course she had no "funds."
So there went my disability severance pay.
Lawyer, he told me that for the next several months between then and the child support hearing, if I could somehow keep paying all the bills at the house I didn't live at anymore it would show I was a stand-up guy and the judge would be less likely to screw me. It didn't work that way, though. I worked TWO full-time jobs for about 3 months and was asleep on my feet 90% of the time when I just couldn't do it any more. About three weeks before the child support hearing I quit one of them. Judge didn't see it as a man who was at the end of his endurance. He saw it as a guy who quit one of his jobs in order to lower his income just before his child support hearing, said so, and based my support payments on the income from both jobs anyway.
I cleared $190 a week. I was ordered to pay $150. This after she got the house we owned free & clear.
Now I have no idea how she managed to get whatever court order she managed to get to have them start taking a portion (a LARGE portion) of my disability payments, too. But she did. And at a time when I was being hauled into court a couple times a month and threatened with jail for not making enough money, that was the last straw. I went to the VA and told them to lower my rating and by god I'd do cartwheels down the hallway no matter how much it hurt. Shit just wasn't right.
Doesn't sound right, does it?
And everybody always has the same damned reaction: stand there and look at you like you're stupid for telling them such unbelievable crap and say, "They can't do that."
Maybe they can't. But a person that doesn't have enough money and time to make a full-time occupation out of trying to get justice will find that a judge can do any f'n thing the SOB wants.
You were curious enough to go as far as you did. So there you are. Believe it or not.

On Mar 20 11:17 AM Oneofthefewleft wrote:

> On December 09, 2008 20:01 pm consumeronstrike wrote:
>
> "Bailout Watch: Heading for a Populist Backlash?
>
> What part of " I'm 52 yrs old" did you not hear? And as far as going
> to sea I spent 12 yrs active duty U.S. Navy, thank you. I was a career
> man till a bad fall wrecked my back. I in fact could EASILY get 80-100
> % disability if I tried. I'd rather work."
>
> Why would anyone not seek 80 - 100% disability pay TAX-FREE, but
> be happy to work as a cook for $8.00 and hour and pay taxes?
>
> Your other posts say that you are trying to fund your future retirement
> with investments; that you are intelligent enough to know exactly
> where to invest your hard earned money; yet you fail to apply for
> up to $3,100.00 in tax-free benefits in order to make $1,386.00 before
> taxes because I'm guessing that you are a proud working man?
>
> You are bitter at the judge because you were ordered to pay child
> support in excess of half of your after tax earnings, and the unpaid
> $50.00 weekly balance goes to a "back support owed" account.
>
> Sounds more like a getting even with your ex-wife and child sort
> of thing to me, and not a very intelligent thing to do, especially
> when you could use some extra money for the future.

Mar 20 03:52 PM

[Oneofthefew...:]

consumeronstrike

I really didn't expect any reply or a very long and personal explanation into your personal life.

I'm sorry for assuming anything as I did in my previous comments.

I found myself too much on the offensive, just like some other union autoworkers; and I really tried to refrain from attacking anyones viewpoints, and only meaning to defend misconceptions.

I hope this economic mess straightens out soon for everyone. I might have been making what some call a fantastic amount of money, but I have also been helping out my 4 grown up and "out on their own" children a lot during the past few years, just as I'm sure other responsible and caring parents have done as well. I also paid a lot more money in taxes, but I can't complain about that.

Good luck to everyone.

Mar 20 05:02 PM

[consumerons...:]

Don't help them too much, friend. It really is true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Mar 20 05:55 PM

[Ames Tiedeman:]

The answer is yes, GM needs to restructure and doing so in bankruptcy makes the most sense. This will allow them to rid themselves of billion in debt and finally get a real deal with the UAW. GM is building great cars and trucks. Let us hope people start to recognize this fact.

Apr 08 11:12 PM