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Greg Feirman

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Yesterday, amidst massive political and public opinion pressure, AIG revealed the counterparties they had paid out money to since receiving bailout money from the US government (AIG Press Release).

The payouts are as follows:

  • $22.4 billion for collateral postings under Credit Default Swaps contracts AIG wrote
  • $24.6 billion net to buy toxic assets from institutions on which AIG had also sold Credit Default Swaps on those assets to those institutions
  • $43.7 billion to pay back securities lending counterparties
  • $12.1 billion to states under guaranteed investment agreements
  • TOTAL: $102.8 billion

In a front page New York Times article from today (“AIG Lists Which Banks It Paid With US Bailout Funds”), we see that Goldman (GS) received about $13 billion, Societe Generale (SCGLY.PK) and Deutsche Bank (DB) about $12 billion each, about $7 billion to Merrill, $8.5 billion to Barclays (BCS), $5 billion to Bank of America (BAC) and UBS, $2.3 billion to Citi (C) and $1.5 billion to Wachovia.

So now we know where all this government bailout money has gone and the systematic links between AIG and other huge, systemically important financial institutions.

Let’s review the categories so we understand why the payouts were made in the various instances:

(1) AIG’s Financial Products division, the 377 person unit based in London, that everybody knows wrote these CDSs that torched the entire company, paid out $22.4 billion in collateral to parties it sold these contracts to. It is required to post this collateral as the value of the securities it insures declines in value and also if its own credit rating gets reduced (which it has). (Anybody who wants to learn more about AIG’s Financial Products division needs to read Gretchen Morgenson’s superb New York Times Profile, “Behind Insurer’s Crisis, Blind Eye to a Web of Risk”, September 28, 2008, A1).

(2) Another $24.6 billion from the Financial Products division’s reckless gambles went to buy up toxic assets from institutions it also wrote insurance (CDS) policies on those assets. This way AIG just owns the assets and has no liabilities to these counterparties anymore.

(3) Interestingly, the $43.7 billion to securities lending counterparties comes from AIG’s Investment division. This division manages AIG’s huge investment portfolio which it gets from insurance premiums and then has to be used to pay out future claims.

To juice returns on the investment portfolio, AIG lent out securities to financial institutions in exchange for cash which it then invested in mortgage backed securities! Most insurance companies that do this, invest the cash in very liquid, safe short term vehicles like treasuries and commercial paper to juice returns a bit but conservatively. As the value of the mortgage backed securities bought collapsed, they couldn’t pay back the money they owed to their securities lending counterparties.

It is noteworthy that this money isn’t the fault of the Financial Products division but the Investment division which apparently also did some really stupid stuff. (Anybody who wants to read more about this needs to read The Wall Street Journal’s “An AIG Unit’s Quest to Juice Profit: Securities Lending Business Made Risky Bets. They Backfired On Insurer” (subscription required), February 5, 2009, C1 (e-mail for a link if you want to read it - fascinating reading!)) (Hat Tip The Economics of Contempt).

(4) Finally, $12.1 billion went to states who left money raised from bond issuance in AIG’s hands to manage until they needed it. What AIG did with this money I'm not sure, but I’m thinking something stupid.

So this is very informative and interesting information. We can kind of see now how exposed other financial institutions were to AIG, though this is still an ongoing and unfolding process, and what kinds of hits they might have had to take had AIG went under. We can understand why the Fed did what it did.

Bottom line, however, is that taxpayers are paying out money to all these financial institutions when they would have had to take losses on their AIG exposure had AIG went under. They could have fought over whatever AIG had in a bankruptcy proceeding based on their claims. Instead, the taxpayer is making them whole. Maybe there would have been systemic meltdown, maybe not. But why not let the financial institutions who have the exposure take the hit? Why do taxpayers have to bail them out?

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This article has 32 comments:

  •  
    First, taxpayers got equity. If we don't screw it up, we'll make money on the deal.
    Second, the citizens of this country ultimately run this country - it's called a democracy - and for the last 8+ years we did a pretty crappy job of it. We need to vote in mature adult responsible leadership who will (a) regulate the financial system to ensure companies don't write checks that their ass can't cash, and (b) use the Sherman act to prevent companies from becoming so big that their failure presents a systemic risk.
    To expect wall street to not take advantage of opportunities to privatize profits and socialize wealth is to expect more from them than any of us expect from ourselves. This is why regulation is important.
    You wouldn't leave your cash on the sidewalk outside and then call the cops when it's gone, would you?
    Mar 16 04:22 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    you are describing recklessness unlimited. what is the jail sentence for reckless endangerment? how many years in the slammer?
    > jack
    Mar 16 04:23 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    To Nuh huh,

    that "equity" is not tangible at the moment those w/o a job and home....
    Mar 16 04:31 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    @ Nuh-Huh:

    Really now!

    1. Do you really believe that equity is gonna be worth much in the future, when AIG STILL NEEDS more bailout money?

    2. Do you really believe that the USA is STILL a Democracy?

    3. Do you really believe that the US taxpayer ultimately runs the USA and controls the country?
    Mar 16 04:53 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    Am I the only one who questions Paulson's motives of bailing out AIG? From the start I figured Goldman was going to be the largest beneficiary. It's certainly looking that way now.
    Mar 16 05:15 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    It looks pretty unlikely that under the best of circumstances, we will only not owe quite as much as we do now on AIG loans. AIG has businesses to sell, and some with actual tangible assets, but a lot of others hold a great portion of their value in intangibles that are dissolving before our eyes. Consider the CEO's argument for paying out bonuses to those same executives that over-exposed AIG in the CDS market? There isn't much fear that Goldman is going to be calling on those guys. How attractive does AIG derivatives trading department look on their resume anyway. These guys will be following the tried and true career path of so many others that fail in business. They'll teach. Who is really going to want to buy this talent, or this business?
    Mar 16 05:27 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    To respond to your final question - "Why do taxpayers have to bail them out?"

    The answer is simple - to save Goldman Sach's worthless a$$. Hammerin Hank had his buddies' back. Its also the reason why Lehman had to fail.
    Mar 16 05:30 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    To Nuh-huh: I agree with your points, but you meant to say "privatize profits and socialize RISKS," didn't you?

    Greg, great article, but for one point. They wouldn't have been fighting over the assets in bankruptcy court, because (according to what I've read) derivatives holders can make claims on a the issuer BEFORE it goes to bankruptcy. So AIG would have been -- and still could be --stripped bare of any assets by the gamblers and high-rollers, leaving NOTHING for bondholders, while the taxpayers still get stuck with the cost of making whole the policyholders of the basic insurance business.
    Ugly, ugly, but that's the way the "free market can do no wrong" people wrote the law.
    Mar 16 06:49 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    NO COMMENT. Numbers show everything. I just wonder how many more billions we will have to put after IQ. We will have company that will cost taxpayer (my estimate is) 250 billion of US$$ with bussines model not worth a penny.
    Mar 16 06:58 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    The bail-out money will never touch the hands of the average American taxpayer for which it was designed to help. It is the biggest scam and fraud ever perpetrated by any government in concert with the financial corporations asking for bail-out money, in history.
    Paulson never had the interests of this country at heart and along with the Federal Reserve Bank, which we cannot forget is a PRIVATE BANK, not a government entity, whose only goal is to MAKE PROFITS, orchestrated this not so subtle panic in order to scare the population into accepting his plan for Bail-out or the economy would crumble and Americans would lose their jobs, their house, their savings plunging this country into the darkest depression.
    BULL$$$IT.
    What he saw was the biggest opportunity since the Depression, for the financial institutions to enrich themselves and himself ipso facto. The people bought it then and they are buying it now. Who will pay for it? The American people. Who will benefit from it? The Federal Reserve Bank and other Banks Paulson's plan was created for.
    Look at who is asking for bail-out money and then look what this bail-out money is used for: to pay other similar companies who were asking for bail-out money but spent it on acquisitions and outrageous bonuses and not on helping people keep their house by renegotiating their mortgage etc... So CORP1 asks for $100 billion or it will go bankrupt. CORP1 gets it and spends it foolishly knowing that there are more billions coming from CORP2 using their billions of bail-out money to fulfill whatever contractual obligations they have with CORP1 and then asks for another $100 billion because they used the money to pay what they owed CORP1 and of course to pay for obscene bonuses until there is no money left.CORP1 and CORP2 GET IT ALL. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE GET NOTHING BUT DEBT.
    The FEDERAL RESERVE BANK, major BANKS, WALL STREET financial corporations, the with the help of PAULSON and the CORRUPT BUSH ADMINISTRATION used the ignorance and credulity of the masses to acquire more power, influence and money. It is just appalling to see the immensity of the fraud taking place. Hopefully something will be done by the OBAMA administration to
    correct this injustice and stop these companies and their corrupt CEOs and let the people know what is really going on.
    It is well known that as long as THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK will exist we will always be in debt. By contracting the money supply or expanding it like they did in the last few years they dictate and create a healthy economy or a very troubled one like is happening now. They are responsible for inflations and depressions.THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK serves no purpose other than enrich its owners and should be abolished so that the US GOVERNMENT can regain control of its currency and finances and stop this nonsense by issuing its own money interest free instead of paying billions of money in interest to the owners of the FEDERAL RESERVE BANK, a PRIVATE BANK.
    Mar 16 07:43 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    You ask Why taxpayers were on the hook to bailout AIG? Its really simple: we are the slaves that support this ponzi scheme called the US financial system. When they make billions through risky bets, they keep the billions and we call it free market capitalism. But when they lose hundreds of billions we the slaves get to bail them out because they are "vital" for the necessary stability of the financial system. It is great to be a US bank. Heads you win, tails we (taxpayers) lose.
    Mar 16 10:41 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    I admit right up front that I don't have any idea just what the Federal Reserve Bank is, but I wonder: since it was the Federal Reserve Bank that bailed out AIG, how are the taxpayers on the hook?
    Mar 16 11:57 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    Regarding why USA taxpayers have to bail-out the part of the ruling class that got in over their "heads", well, that was the plan of the ruling class all along: to privatize profits and socialize losses onto the backs of every other class below them, but especially the working/middle classes.

    You think that is conspiracy theory? No, it is better than theory, it is conspiracy FACT.

    See article below:
    "Banks Counted on Looting America’s Coffers"
    tinyurl.com/bkezmt
    or
    www.nytimes.com/2009/0...



    Nuh-huh:

    "Second, the citizens of this country ultimately run this country - it's called a democracy - and for the last 8+ years we did a pretty crappy job of it.
    "

    The government is run by 17,000 lobbyists Nuh-huh; in the employ of the rich plue influential who also happen to run Americas major corporations. As such, if you think the people have more say than the 14,000 lobbyists, then you also believe the Bernanke/Paulson $700 billion bail-out was passed b/c of the wished of the people and you might also then even consider Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to be capitalist in temporary disguise as a socialist...


    Mar 17 01:29 AM | Link | Reply
  •  
    It is depressing to read this and the really sad part is alot of these people are still in power. You average Americans need to get off your asses and do something about it.
    Mar 17 03:12 AM | Link | Reply
  •  
    Another scandal in the making: doing away with mark to market accounting. See www.marketwatch.com/ne....
    The lies go on and the dupes do nothing.

    Mar 17 04:14 AM | Link | Reply
  •  
    The Federal Reserve Bank is a private Bank and not a government entity. It is not part of the US government. It is privately owned. Their only goal is to make a profit, and profit they make by the billions by creating money out of thin air and loaning it to the government with interest. It defies any logic. The Federal Reserve Bank dictates how much money you will pay for your car loan, your mortgage etc...
    It has no reason to exist and should be abolished.


    On Mar 16 11:57 PM Micajah wrote:

    > I admit right up front that I don't have any idea just what the Federal
    > Reserve Bank is, but I wonder: since it was the Federal Reserve
    > Bank that bailed out AIG, how are the taxpayers on the hook?
    Mar 17 06:48 AM | Link | Reply
  •  
    I and others on this site drew a direct line to Paulson when TARP was unveiled. The sad fact is that those who wrote it and allowed it to operate were fully cognizant of the ramifications and the reason for AIGs bailout. Paulson has no shame.

    Now to the question of why the onus is on taxpayers. The simple answer is that they had no voice and lots of cash. Now our wallets are less delicious looking to the vultures. They may actually have to work to get more money out of us.

    The market is up but few are cheering. We need reform not the printing of reckless and expensive get out of bankruptcy cards.
    Mar 17 08:33 AM | Link | Reply
  •  
    The reason for taxpayer capital were given by the President's men last fall, "If you don't give us this money, something terrible is going to happen!" They did not prove the case for the legitimacy of the use of the full faith and credit of the US government to back these debts.

    The Treasury Secretary and the President and many of his men are now gone, but not all. Geithner and Bernanke remain in the most powerful positions in the world in control of the US money supply and monetary and fiscal policy. Obama placed his faith in these same men. The arguments made are the same ones.

    THEY ARE ALL WRONG. THERE IS NO CASE FOR LEGITIMACY OF A TAXPAYER BAILOUT!!!

    You may also note that a foreign subsidiary of AIG was the culprit in writing the credit default swaps and corrupting the "prudent investor rule" for assets that back insurance contracts. Why does the US back foreign financial institutions and their gambling debts?

    This bailout makes a mockery of the purpose of Treasury securities and insured bank deposits and pension funds. The money was needed for that purpose. Now, the money is gone. Do you believe that AIG or any of the co-conspirators in this scheme are going to pay us back?

    Where are the Marines when you need them? Oh, right, they're off in some desert fighting to protect us from harm. We need a few squads to clean out enemy snipers in London and New York.

    Mar 17 08:39 AM | Link | Reply
  •  
    "The Board of Governors is the part of the Federal Reserve System that is responsible for supervising the private banks."

    Recent Chairmen of this Board:

    Alan Greenspan (August 11, 1987 – January 31, 2006)
    Ben Bernanke (February 1, 2006 – )

    why is Ben Bernanke still in this position??????

    Mar 17 08:55 AM | Link | Reply
  •  
    Micajah:

    You get it.

    The entire country has gone mad about the taxpayer bailout of AIG. Except that is all wrong. The AIG bailout came from the Federal Reserve from "funny" money that Bernanke/Federal Reserve creates (out of thin arir) by computer entry (as Bernanke said on "60 Minutes") in banks where Fed has accounts.

    AIG bailout is not in the budget, deficit, nor a taxpayer debt. If AIG fails to pay back the Fed, it would seem that the money just goes up in smoke like a restriction of the money supply. Too bad they did not do all the bailouts with Fed funny money. That would be better for the taxpayers.
    Mar 17 01:25 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    No you are not. If there ever was any "transparency" it was in Hank Paulson's motives in using AIG as siphon from the Treasury to GS.


    On Mar 16 05:15 PM cabanker wrote:

    > Am I the only one who questions Paulson's motives of bailing out
    > AIG? From the start I figured Goldman was going to be the largest
    > beneficiary. It's certainly looking that way now.
    Mar 17 02:48 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    Lavalson, get a grip. Post whatever conspiracy theories you like, but label as such. The Fed is not in any way a private bank. It is the bank of the United States. Go to federalreserve.gov (that's .gov, not .com). Here's a preview of what you'll find...

    "On December 23, 1913, the Federal Reserve System, which serves as the nation's central bank, was created by an act of Congress. The System consists of a seven member Board of Governors with headquarters in Washington, D.C., and twelve Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the United States."

    "Federal Reserve Banks were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system. Many of the services provided by this network to depository institutions and the government are similar to services provided by banks and thrift institutions to business customers and individuals. Reserve Banks hold the cash reserves of depository institutions and make loans to them. They move currency and coin into and out of circulation, and collect and process millions of checks each day. They provide checking accounts for the Treasury, issue and redeem government securities, and act in other ways as fiscal agent for the U.S. government. They supervise and examine member banks for safety and soundness. The Reserve Banks also participate in the activity that is the primary responsibility of the Federal Reserve System, the setting of monetary policy."
    Mar 17 04:03 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    The bail-out money comes from money that the Federal reserve Bank created out of thin air as usual. Where else would it come from? All the US money in circulation is created through debt. The Govnmt needs money, the Treasury issues bonds and the Fed Res Bank uses these bonds which are a promise to pay the loan back plus interest as collateral. Then they order the Mint to print the money. This money is created out of thin air and the Federal Reserve Bank charges interest on this loan to the Government who has to repay the amount of the loan plus the interest to a PRIVATE BANK who pockets all this money for doing nothing at all except laugh in the face of the American People. The FRB did not have this money to loan, they just created it and loaned it but they get all this money back plus interest. If that is not a scam , I wonder what is.


    On Mar 17 01:25 PM Chancer wrote:

    > Micajah:
    >
    > You get it.
    >
    > The entire country has gone mad about the taxpayer bailout of AIG.
    > Except that is all wrong. The AIG bailout came from the Federal Reserve
    > from "funny" money that Bernanke/Federal Reserve creates (out of
    > thin arir) by computer entry (as Bernanke said on "60 Minutes") in
    > banks where Fed has accounts.
    >
    > AIG bailout is not in the budget, deficit, nor a taxpayer debt. If
    > AIG fails to pay back the Fed, it would seem that the money just
    > goes up in smoke like a restriction of the money supply. Too bad
    > they did not do all the bailouts with Fed funny money. That would
    > be better for the taxpayers.
    Mar 17 10:47 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    adcva you get a grip and check who are the members of the Federal Reserve Banks. You will see that the members are private banks and that they are paid dividends by the FRB. They fund themselves by creating money out of thin air. They are not part of the government but the President chooses its chairman.
    They operate without any intervention from the government and control the money supply, set interest rates etc...The FRB is a privately owned bank.
    The banks use a fractional reserve system which allows them to loan 9 times more money than they actually have in deposit with the Federal Reserve Bank. A really stupid system where money loaned is backed by virtually nothing since they loan 9 times what they have in reserve.
    Now prove me that I'm wrong and I will be happy to retract all I said and apologize for being so ill informed.

    On Mar 17 04:03 PM adcva wrote:

    > Lavalson, get a grip. Post whatever conspiracy theories you like,
    > but label as such. The Fed is not in any way a private bank. It
    > is the bank of the United States. Go to federalreserve.gov (that's
    > .gov, not .com). Here's a preview of what you'll find...
    >
    > "On December 23, 1913, the Federal Reserve System, which serves as
    > the nation's central bank, was created by an act of Congress. The
    > System consists of a seven member Board of Governors with headquarters
    > in Washington, D.C., and twelve Reserve Banks located in major cities
    > throughout the United States."
    >
    > "Federal Reserve Banks were established by Congress as the operating
    > arms of the nation's central banking system. Many of the services
    > provided by this network to depository institutions and the government
    > are similar to services provided by banks and thrift institutions
    > to business customers and individuals. Reserve Banks hold the cash
    > reserves of depository institutions and make loans to them. They
    > move currency and coin into and out of circulation, and collect and
    > process millions of checks each day. They provide checking accounts
    > for the Treasury, issue and redeem government securities, and act
    > in other ways as fiscal agent for the U.S. government. They supervise
    > and examine member banks for safety and soundness. The Reserve Banks
    > also participate in the activity that is the primary responsibility
    > of the Federal Reserve System, the setting of monetary policy."<br/>
    Mar 17 11:10 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    To prove to you that the Federal Reserve Bank is a private bank, then why is it that the national debt is so large and why is it that US Government has to pay all this money back plus interest to the Federal RB if it owns it? If I loaned money to myself,first I would have to create it, since I don't have it, and then I would not charge myself interest on my newly created loan. This is why we are so much in debt because we do not issue our own money , we allow a private bank to do it and we pay the loan back to it plus interest.
    It is legalized robbery. Without the FRB we could regain control of issuing our own money and get out of debt very quickly. Am I wrong?


    On Mar 17 04:03 PM adcva wrote:

    > Lavalson, get a grip. Post whatever conspiracy theories you like,
    > but label as such. The Fed is not in any way a private bank. It
    > is the bank of the United States. Go to federalreserve.gov (that's
    > .gov, not .com). Here's a preview of what you'll find...
    >
    > "On December 23, 1913, the Federal Reserve System, which serves as
    > the nation's central bank, was created by an act of Congress. The
    > System consists of a seven member Board of Governors with headquarters
    > in Washington, D.C., and twelve Reserve Banks located in major cities
    > throughout the United States."
    >
    > "Federal Reserve Banks were established by Congress as the operating
    > arms of the nation's central banking system. Many of the services
    > provided by this network to depository institutions and the government
    > are similar to services provided by banks and thrift institutions
    > to business customers and individuals. Reserve Banks hold the cash
    > reserves of depository institutions and make loans to them. They
    > move currency and coin into and out of circulation, and collect and
    > process millions of checks each day. They provide checking accounts
    > for the Treasury, issue and redeem government securities, and act
    > in other ways as fiscal agent for the U.S. government. They supervise
    > and examine member banks for safety and soundness. The Reserve Banks
    > also participate in the activity that is the primary responsibility
    > of the Federal Reserve System, the setting of monetary policy."<br/>
    Mar 17 11:39 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    Check what Bernanke said on 60 minutes. You will see that I am not making this up. And there is no conspiracy theory here, it is just a fact. Revise your GED notes, after so many unsuccessful attempts to pass it, maybe next time you will.


    On Mar 17 04:03 PM adcva wrote:

    > Lavalson, get a grip. Post whatever conspiracy theories you like,
    > but label as such. The Fed is not in any way a private bank. It
    > is the bank of the United States. Go to federalreserve.gov (that's
    > .gov, not .com). Here's a preview of what you'll find...
    >
    > "On December 23, 1913, the Federal Reserve System, which serves as
    > the nation's central bank, was created by an act of Congress. The
    > System consists of a seven member Board of Governors with headquarters
    > in Washington, D.C., and twelve Reserve Banks located in major cities
    > throughout the United States."
    >
    > "Federal Reserve Banks were established by Congress as the operating
    > arms of the nation's central banking system. Many of the services
    > provided by this network to depository institutions and the government
    > are similar to services provided by banks and thrift institutions
    > to business customers and individuals. Reserve Banks hold the cash
    > reserves of depository institutions and make loans to them. They
    > move currency and coin into and out of circulation, and collect and
    > process millions of checks each day. They provide checking accounts
    > for the Treasury, issue and redeem government securities, and act
    > in other ways as fiscal agent for the U.S. government. They supervise
    > and examine member banks for safety and soundness. The Reserve Banks
    > also participate in the activity that is the primary responsibility
    > of the Federal Reserve System, the setting of monetary policy."<br/>
    Mar 17 11:48 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    Adcva Check this out .( And explain why when we do sell bonds to the FED, if the FED is a not a private Bank then why do we get more in debt when the loan is paid back, shouldn't it be the opposite? Most people when they pay off their mortgage, car, credit card bill etc...are debt free. if the FRB is part of the government, then who do we owe the money to? I cannot wait for your answer.)
    You haven't heard of the Bureau of the Public Debt before? We're a small agency within the Department of the Treasury.

    Our job is to borrow the money needed to operate the federal government and to account for the resulting debt. In a nutshell, we borrow by selling Treasury bills, notes, and bonds, as well as U.S. Savings Bonds; we pay interest to investors; and, when the time comes to pay back the loans, we redeem investors' securities. EVERY TIME WE BORROW OR PAY BACK MONEY,IT AFFECTS THE OUTSTANDING DEBT OF THE UNITED STATES.


    On Mar 17 11:10 PM Lavalson wrote:

    > adcva you get a grip and check who are the members of the Federal
    > Reserve Banks. You will see that the members are private banks and
    > that they are paid dividends by the FRB. They fund themselves by
    > creating money out of thin air. They are not part of the government
    > but the President chooses its chairman.
    > They operate without any intervention from the government and control
    > the money supply, set interest rates etc...The FRB is a privately
    > owned bank.
    > The banks use a fractional reserve system which allows them to loan
    > 9 times more money than they actually have in deposit with the Federal
    > Reserve Bank. A really stupid system where money loaned is backed
    > by virtually nothing since they loan 9 times what they have in reserve.
    >
    > Now prove me that I'm wrong and I will be happy to retract all I
    > said and apologize for being so ill informed.
    >
    > On Mar 17 04:03 PM adcva wrote:
    Mar 18 01:56 AM | Link | Reply
  •  
    Adcva , read this, from the FRB website:
    So who owns the Fed? Although it is set up like a private corporation and member banks hold its stock, the Fed owes its existence to an act of Congress and has a mandate to serve the public. So the most accurate answer may be that the Fed is "owned" by the citizens of the United States.
    Notice that they put "owned" in quotation marks because it is not owned by the people but by private stock holders who are private banks. So if there was any doubt in your mind as who owns the FED now you heard it from the horse's mouth. So get a grip ADCVA! and get your facts straight before accusing me of posting conspiracies. It is because of ignorant people like you who think they know everything that we got stuck with an idiot like Bush for 8 years.


    On Mar 17 04:03 PM adcva wrote:

    > Lavalson, get a grip. Post whatever conspiracy theories you like,
    > but label as such. The Fed is not in any way a private bank. It
    > is the bank of the United States. Go to federalreserve.gov (that's
    > .gov, not .com). Here's a preview of what you'll find...
    >
    > "On December 23, 1913, the Federal Reserve System, which serves as
    > the nation's central bank, was created by an act of Congress. The
    > System consists of a seven member Board of Governors with headquarters
    > in Washington, D.C., and twelve Reserve Banks located in major cities
    > throughout the United States."
    >
    > "Federal Reserve Banks were established by Congress as the operating
    > arms of the nation's central banking system. Many of the services
    > provided by this network to depository institutions and the government
    > are similar to services provided by banks and thrift institutions
    > to business customers and individuals. Reserve Banks hold the cash
    > reserves of depository institutions and make loans to them. They
    > move currency and coin into and out of circulation, and collect and
    > process millions of checks each day. They provide checking accounts
    > for the Treasury, issue and redeem government securities, and act
    > in other ways as fiscal agent for the U.S. government. They supervise
    > and examine member banks for safety and soundness. The Reserve Banks
    > also participate in the activity that is the primary responsibility
    > of the Federal Reserve System, the setting of monetary policy."<br/>
    Mar 18 03:14 AM | Link | Reply
  •  
    Adcva ,
    just one last thing. So you know, I made almost $1,000,000.00 on the stock market since last week. You are not talking to some ignorant bozo who has no clue how money is made and spent. I resent your comment about my posting "conspiracy theories" when you have no clue what you are talking about. And nowhere on the federalreserve.gov website does it say that the Federal Reserve Bank is a part of the government. Actually it answers its own question "what is the Fed?" with "it was created by Congress...." but fails to state that it is part of the government . In fact it was created on december 23rd when they waited until almost all of the members of Congress were away for the Christmas Holidays but a handful of corrupt politicians paid by the Bankers to vote the Act as law. Wilson signed it the same day, I believe and this was the greatest fraud ever perpetrated on the american people. Only a few weeks before Congress had voted the Income tax law ,which was never ratified by all the states but that's another story, but which was to guarantee through direct taxation of its citizens that the US government would be able to repay their loan to the Fed, money they were going to create out of thin air. Incredible but true story.



    On Mar 17 04:03 PM adcva wrote:

    > Lavalson, get a grip. Post whatever conspiracy theories you like,
    > but label as such. The Fed is not in any way a private bank. It
    > is the bank of the United States. Go to federalreserve.gov (that's
    > .gov, not .com). Here's a preview of what you'll find...
    >
    > "On December 23, 1913, the Federal Reserve System, which serves as
    > the nation's central bank, was created by an act of Congress. The
    > System consists of a seven member Board of Governors with headquarters
    > in Washington, D.C., and twelve Reserve Banks located in major cities
    > throughout the United States."
    >
    > "Federal Reserve Banks were established by Congress as the operating
    > arms of the nation's central banking system. Many of the services
    > provided by this network to depository institutions and the government
    > are similar to services provided by banks and thrift institutions
    > to business customers and individuals. Reserve Banks hold the cash
    > reserves of depository institutions and make loans to them. They
    > move currency and coin into and out of circulation, and collect and
    > process millions of checks each day. They provide checking accounts
    > for the Treasury, issue and redeem government securities, and act
    > in other ways as fiscal agent for the U.S. government. They supervise
    > and examine member banks for safety and soundness. The Reserve Banks
    > also participate in the activity that is the primary responsibility
    > of the Federal Reserve System, the setting of monetary policy."<br/>
    Mar 18 04:06 AM | Link | Reply
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    Lavalson - It's nice to see you have the time to write so many posts, but not to read up on the Fed on the their gov't website. As far as money flow is concerned, the summary would be (from the site):

    "Federal Reserve Banks generate their own income, primarily from interest earned on government securities that are acquired in the course of Federal Reserve monetary policy actions. A secondary source of income is derived from the provision of priced services to depository institutions, as required by the Monetary Control Act of 1980. Federal Reserve Banks are not, however, operated for a profit, and each year they return to the U.S. Treasury all earnings in excess of Federal Reserve operating and other expenses."

    But back to the issue of ownership, at which point I will stop wasting my time here and put the burden of proof on you - if any Federal Bank is privately owned, find and show us the names of the individual or corporate owners, or even an evidence of incorporation in any state. You can't. The US Gov't owns the banks. The directors are part-time gov't employees, mostly bank and other financial group CEOs, but also other business executives who serve a few years in those roles. There is no money flow to their businesses.
    Mar 18 10:49 AM | Link | Reply
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    Adcva- It's nice to see that you took the time to reply to my numerous posts but it looks like you only took the time to count how many there were instead of reading the content. I hope that with this post I will succeed in convincing you that the FRB is private even though it creates the illusion that it is a federal government entity.
    First here's an excerpt from:
    What is the Federal Reserve Bank (FED) and why do we have it?

    by Greg Hobbs November 1, 1999
    and here is the link:
    seekingalpha.com/artic...



    The act created the Federal Reserve System, a name carefully selected and designed to deceive. "Federal" would lead one to believe that this is a government organization. "Reserve" would lead one to believe that the currency is being backed by gold and silver. "System" was used in lieu of the word "bank" so that one would not conclude that a new central bank had been created.

    In reality, the act created a private, for profit, central banking corporation owned by a cartel of private banks. Who owns the FED? The Rothschilds of London and Berlin; Lazard Brothers of Paris; Israel Moses Seif of Italy; Kuhn, Loeb and Warburg of Germany; and the Lehman Brothers, Goldman, Sachs and the Rockefeller families of New York.

    Did you know that the FED is the only for-profit corporation in America that is exempt from both federal and state taxes? The FED takes in about one trillion dollars per year tax free! The banking families listed above get all that money.

    Almost everyone thinks that the money they pay in taxes goes to the US Treasury to pay for the expenses of the government. Do you want to know where your tax dollars really go? If you look at the back of any check made payable to the IRS you will see that it has been endorsed as "Pay Any F.R.B. Branch or Gen. Depository for Credit U.S. Treas. This is in Payment of U.S. Oblig." Yes, that's right, every dime you pay in income taxes is given to those private banking families, commonly known as the FED, tax free.------------
    Now to put the frosting on this cake. When was the income tax created? If you guessed 1913, the same year that the FED was created, you get a gold star. Coincidence? What are the odds? If you are going to use the FED to create debt, who is going to repay that debt? The income tax was created to complete the illusion that real money had been lent and therefore real money had to be repaid.
    I have no idea if this guy is legit or if he is a crackpot but then there's this other source citing a court case where it was established that the FRB is a private institution.



    Court Rules Federal Reserve is Privately Owned
    Case Reveals Fed's Status as a Private Institution

    Below are excerpts from a court case proving the Federal Reserve system's status. As you will see, the court ruled that the Federal Reserve Banks are "independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations", and there is not sufficient "federal government control over 'detailed physical performance' and 'day to day operation'" of the Federal Reserve Bank for it to be considered a federal agency:

    Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (1982)
    John L. Lewis, Plaintiff/Appellant,
    v.
    United States of America, Defendant/Appellee.

    No. 80-5905
    United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit.
    Submitted March 2, 1982.
    Decided April 19, 1982.
    As Amended June 24, 1982.

    Plaintiff, who was injured by vehicle owned and operated by a federal reserve bank, brought action alleging jurisdiction under the Federal Tort Claims Act. The United States District Court for the Central District of California, David W. Williams, J., dismissed holding that federal reserve bank was not a federal agency within meaning of Act and that the court therefore lacked subject-matter jurisdiction. Appeal was taken. The Court of Appeals, Poole, Circuit Judge, held that federal reserve banks are not federal instrumentalities for purposes of the Act, but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations.

    Affirmed.

    1. United States

    There are no sharp criteria for determining whether an entity is a federal agency within meaning of the Federal Tort Claims Act, but critical factor is existence of federal government control over "detailed physical performance" and "day to day operation" of an entity. . . .

    2. United States

    Federal reserve banks are not federal instrumentalities for purposes of a Federal Tort Claims Act, but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations in light of fact that direct supervision and control of each bank is exercised by board of directors, federal reserve banks, though heavily regulated, are locally controlled by their member banks, banks are listed neither as "wholly owned" government corporations nor as "mixed ownership" corporations; federal reserve banks receive no appropriated funds from Congress and the banks are empowered to sue and be sued in their own names. . . .

    3. United States

    Under the Federal Tort Claims Act, federal liability is narrowly based on traditional agency principles and does not necessarily lie when a tortfeasor simply works for an entity, like the Reserve Bank, which performs important activities for the government. . . .

    4. Taxation

    The Reserve Banks are deemed to be federal instrumentalities for purposes of immunity from state taxation.

    There are more references from court cases like these:

    H.R. Report No. 69 Cong. 1st Sess. 18-19 (1913).

    The fact that the Federal Reserve Board regulates the Reserve Banks does not make them federal agencies under the Act. In United States v. Orleans, 425 U.S. 807, 96 S.Ct. 1971, 48 L.Ed.2d 390 (1976), the Supreme Court held that a community action agency was not a federal agency or instrumentality for purposes of the Act, even though the agency was organized under federal regulations and heavily funded by the federal government. Because the agency's day to day operation-------------... Reserve Banks, as privately owned entities, receive no appropriated funds from Congress.

    Et Voila, the defense rests its case having established the proof that the FRB is a private institution.
    Mar 19 08:46 AM | Link | Reply
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    ADCVA you are a coward!
    Mar 25 05:20 AM | Link | Reply