Defending the UAW, Felix Salmon Abandons Logic 36 comments
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I have been watching an interesting back and forth between Business Insider blogger Joe Weisenthal and Felix Salmon from Reuters. Essentially, Felix Salmon has been arguing on the UAW's side, saying that Chrysler bondholders should just "man up" and take the hit while the UAW should be allowed to jump ahead of the technically senior bondholders. A few days back Mr. Salmon said the following:
I’m frankly surprised at the amount of pushback against the entirely sensible notion that Chrysler’s creditors (and, by implication, GM’s as well) should accept an enormous haircut on their failed investment.
And in response to Mr. Weisenthal arguing that the Chrysler situation would make anyone think twice about lending to any company with a large union in the future, Mr. Salmon followed with:
Oh come on. When Detroit raised debt capital in the past, its lenders weren’t operating on the assumption that they would be paid off in full before the UAW got a penny — and if they were, they were being foolish in the extreme.
Thus Mr. Salmon says that creditors were being foolish to believe that their contractual rights would be honored. What a chaos business would be if only fools were expected to trust contract law.
The UAW, after all, is necessary for the continued existence of the company: they’re doing the equivalent of putting new money in to the operation, in the form of their labor going forwards. I don’t see the creditors offering to put up any new capital.
This is hilarious. Chrylser would have loved to toss this union out years ago. They are not necessary for the continued existence of the company, but rather they continue the problems Chrysler faces. New money in the form of labor going forwards? They are getting paid salaries, this isn't some act of charity. And frequently they are getting paid at rates higher than what could be achieved by workers who don't operate as a institutionalized mafia, such as US workers for Toyota. They extort higher salaries and benefits than would be available on the open market for labor, thus they are actually sucking capital out of Chrysler, beyond what their labor is worth.
Sure, the creditors might have a point about seniority if the firms were to be liquidated with the loss of all jobs. But let’s not forget that a huge part of the reason why they lent their money in the first case was that the US auto industry is systemically important, and that the government would never allow it to be liquidated. They were making a moral hazard play, and believed the car companies when they said that bankruptcy would be disastrous, and so they assumed that the government would keep the car companies out of bankruptcy.
Wrong again. A lot of creditors would have loved a normal bankruptcy without the government intruding its UAW-corrupt nose. The UAW has very little power in a normal bankruptcy, and the creditors have substantial power, as they should. (Which is why they have coerced the government to intervene.)
So now I can barely believe it when the creditors start talking about how much they might receive in liquidation. For one thing, I don’t believe them. If GM and Chrysler liquidate, their assets are worth very little if anything at all: how are you going to monetize a mothballed production line?
Well, let the creditors go ahead with it and find out. It's their money, it's their risk, allow them to use their own judgment. If the liquidation value is less than they expect, then they simply get less money.
After Mr. Weisenthal highlighted in a post that the UAW was in no way necessary to Chrylser and was actually very problematic, Felix came back and no, didn't defend his clearly collapsed arguments, but rather abandoned logic and went for the "that's just the way its gonna be and you better like it" route:
I could go on at some length about how unions really are necessary to the continued survival of the Detroit auto industry, even if they haven’t been used at Japanese-owned car factories in southern states. But really it’s easier to just quote TED: Here’s a clue for the novices in the room:
It’s called politics, you fucking morons. Stop being such a bunch of whiny pansies.
The holdouts didn’t sway the Obama administration, and it doesn’t look like they’re going to have much more luck in bankruptcy court, either: holders of fully 90% of Chrysler’s bonds are now on board with the government’s deal. It’s over. You lost. Move on.
Thus, by his failure to defend his original points with any form of reasonable argument, Felix makes it very clear that in the end, logic lost. It's just a bunch of corruption. And a corrupt UAW won. The same UAW Felix says is necessary.
Please Felix, one day please do go at length about how the UAW is necessary for the survival of the auto industry. It will be an interesting piece, in stark contrast with the reality of recent history.
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When the middle class has been destroyed I hope the Chinese will buy your products....BE CAREFUL OF WHAT YOU WISH!!!!!!!
HYPOCRITE!
On May 07 08:12 AM sstro wrote:
> We need to put a stake into the heart of this blood-sucking vampire
> called the UAW. We also need to put a stake into the heart of the
> teacher unions as well.
I think you need to understand what the UAW is, how they aren't just any union, and how they have slowly strangled the US automakers to death. There's no reason why the US can't have competitive automakers, once the strangehold of unions are gone. But it seems like our government just won't let the UAW die. Too bad.
do you think Toyota would pay middle class wages to their 70% permanent workers if not to keep the UAW out?
UAW's new contract calls for new hires to be payed at $14.50 to $16hr...Toyota's new hires at its new plants will be payed $16hr to compete with the UAW...A RACE TO THE BOTTOM! And we've got people like you who think we don't need unions...how do you think we got in this mess? I'll tell you how...we shipped our good paying union jobs to slave labor countries...taking away people buying power and replacing it with easy credit!
Self destruction is the only thing we're good at!!!!!!!!!
On May 08 01:07 AM Vincent Fernando wrote:
> The UAW or any union has nothing to do with "the middle class", despite
> their attempts to connect with people by associating themselves as
> such. Toyota's workers are doing just fine. They are middle class.
> Also take a look at growth industries of the US. No huge unions and
> they are doing fine long term. The middle class isn't being "destroyed".
> I am always perplexed where this concept comes from. Finally, also
> realize that the US economy is at its core driven by internal innovation,
> not through a dependency on selling abroad. I wouldn't worry about
> selling to China.
>
> I think you need to understand what the UAW is, how they aren't just
> any union, and how they have slowly strangled the US automakers to
> death. There's no reason why the US can't have competitive automakers,
> once the strangehold of unions are gone. But it seems like our government
> just won't let the UAW die. Too bad.
What really kills me is the lack of understanding the english language. Unions "represent" the middle class but they are not the middle class. Unions control more wealth via pension plans than most wall street hedge funds. There officers golf at the same country clubs and make big salaries. What we have here is Big Business, Big Labor, and Big Grovernment. Who do you think really is going to get the shaft?
On May 08 06:57 PM sethmcs wrote:
> I have a solution let's institute a union tax on all wages and make
> everyone a card carrying member of a union therefore we will have
> a level playing field. Imports. No problem. We will pay the longshoreman
> 90% of their wages to stay home.
>
> What really kills me is the lack of understanding the english language.
> Unions "represent" the middle class but they are not the middle class.
> Unions control more wealth via pension plans than most wall street
> hedge funds. There officers golf at the same country clubs and make
> big salaries. What we have here is Big Business, Big Labor, and Big
> Grovernment. Who do you think really is going to get the shaft?
I think you need to think about how one earns an income. We are not born with a guaranteed income regardless of what we do. We need to earn it and in a perfect system we get paid an amount equal to the value we add. You have to think about this. Thus anyone who wants a middle class lifestyle (which is a pretty luxurious lifestyle that most of the world doesnt have btw), then you need to create value in this world equal to the cost of your lifestyle. The way to solve worker's income problems is for them to add more value. Not to just demand higher wages. Because in the end, their wage has to come from added value, ie. adding to employer's income by at least an amount commensurate with their salary hike. Company's income, which is the source of all wages, have to come from somewhere. If workers just demand more and more without adding value they simply kill their companies by slow torture. That's what we've witnessed with the US auto industry. If people find that the salaries from auto factory work aren't enough to maintain the lifestyle they want, (again, our middle class lifestyle is pretty luxurious relative to most people in the world) then they need to figure out how to add more value with new skills or new ideas. But instead of doing this, the UAW simply finds way to demand more money, less work, and twist the rules to get their way. Our tax dollars now subsidize their inflated benefits. I'd much rather this money went into educating proactive people who try to improve themselves in order to learn more, add more value, and then EARN higher wages.
Guaranteed income? if you're referring to the job bank, it's a practice given to the American auto industry by the Asians..Toyota still has a job bank...after all aren't the HYPOCRITES on wall street telling us that we 're to compete with the Asians? do as they do?
Luxurious middle class lifestyle?....this is AMERICA...We were driving cars when the rest of the world was riding donkey carts ...we had color tvs when the rest of the world was trying to get electricity to their homes...we had a phone in every home when the rest of the world had a phone in every town. If our middle class is a luxury to the rest of the world then we should bring the rest of the world to our standard of living...instead of bringing ours to their's.
As for our wages? they are lower then Toyota's permanent workers.$28hr to their $31(including their yearly bonuses)
Our benefits? we have health care is that a crime? we have pension benefits, is that a crime?
Now let me tell you what.s destroying the American auto industry...we have a market of lets say 10 million vehicles...Detroit needs a certain market share to support their retirees...for every foreign transplant we let in...one of ours shuts down...last year we let 800,000 cars in here from korea, how many American cars did the Koreans buy? they build a few models here and import the rest... Detroit imports some foreign auto also...this needs to stop!
WE NEED TO BRING BACK OUR MANUFACTURING JOBS BACK...UNTIL THAT HAPPENS WE'LL NOT GET OUT OF THIS MESS...LOWERING WAGES AND BENEFITS IS NOT THE SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!
On May 09 07:32 AM Vincent Fernando wrote:
> 303820, Rush Limbaugh has nothing to do with this. As pointed out
> previously I am not anti-union. I am anti-UAW. There is a huge difference.
>
>
> I think you need to think about how one earns an income. We are not
> born with a guaranteed income regardless of what we do. We need to
> earn it and in a perfect system we get paid an amount equal to the
> value we add. You have to think about this. Thus anyone who wants
> a middle class lifestyle (which is a pretty luxurious lifestyle that
> most of the world doesnt have btw), then you need to create value
> in this world equal to the cost of your lifestyle. The way to solve
> worker's income problems is for them to add more value. Not to just
> demand higher wages. Because in the end, their wage has to come from
> added value, ie. adding to employer's income by at least an amount
> commensurate with their salary hike. Company's income, which is the
> source of all wages, have to come from somewhere. If workers just
> demand more and more without adding value they simply kill their
> companies by slow torture. That's what we've witnessed with the US
> auto industry. If people find that the salaries from auto factory
> work aren't enough to maintain the lifestyle they want, (again, our
> middle class lifestyle is pretty luxurious relative to most people
> in the world) then they need to figure out how to add more value
> with new skills or new ideas. But instead of doing this, the UAW
> simply finds way to demand more money, less work, and twist the rules
> to get their way. Our tax dollars now subsidize their inflated benefits.
> I'd much rather this money went into educating proactive people who
> try to improve themselves in order to learn more, add more value,
> and then EARN higher wages.
GM loses $6 billion...it's the UAW!
HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
stop screaming here - you and your comrades have bargained yourselves out of business. stop pointing fingers at others in the financial industry since thousands of truly hardworking folks are losing jobs there as well. My husband and I lost our jobs in the tech crash. The strong and persistant ones recovered and we never asked you for your tax dollars to help us back on our feet.
So grow up already and like the rest of us ... get a r e a l job !
The key point you miss is that what I'm saying is that everyone needs to EARN their income, their lifestyle, etc. You never talk of how the auto industry might EARN its way to success. Instead you want the government to bail out the mafia like UAW, to block imports, to break business contracts with Chrysler creditors, etc.
And btw Toyota lost money for the first time ever. We'll see where they go, but I'm sure they will continue to do fine especially as long as US automakers have their hands tied by government and parasitic unions. They have proven their competitiveness for the time being. Despite the recent loss, I think few would argue that the US automakers have been beating them lately.
Finally, I think you need to think about what America was built on, what brought us middle class lifestyles for the masses, etc. At its core it was not manufacturing, it was not farming, it was not computers. Really. At its core it was a system whereby people pull themselves up by their own bootstraps while the government makes sure others don't break their individual property rights. Each tries their best to succeed, motivated by the knowledge that they had a right to their spoils and others wouldn't be able to forcefully mooch off (ie steal from) them. It sounds so simple, but such a system had never existed on such a large scale. The result was an economic miracle because masses of people spent time building skills, being productive, and innovating rather than just following their leader powerlessly or trying to find ways to mooch. America needs entities like the UAW? If you go to any third world country there are tons of UAW-like entities, far more than in the US, be they big labor or state-run company employees, clamoring for support and demanding financial security as if their income was a god-given right rather than something to be earned. In most countries, large entities like the UAW spend more time finding ways to manipulate the government to their favor rather than finding ways to become more skilled, more efficient, more innovative. And in many countries the route to success more based on political manipulation skills, rather than innovation, efficiency, and competency. If you look at the richest people in the world, you'll see most of the richest abroad are based on heavily government-regulated industries like liquor, tobacco, property, agriculture. There aren't Bill Gates or Warren Buffet. No Steve Jobs or Larry Page. In a system such as the UAW plays, if you are truly smart you realize working hard isn't necessary and time is better spent playing political games to succeed. The unique success of the US wasn't built on that kind of behavior. The US is still the leader on so many fronts, in growth industries of the future, and most... dare I say all... of these leader industries have absolutely nothing like the UAW to deal with. They are probably the least unionized industries we have. And the most competitive, with the brightest futures. 303820, please slow down your thoughts and think about this!
On May 10 12:04 AM smilingpilgrim wrote:
> 303820
>
> stop screaming here - you and your comrades have bargained yourselves
> out of business. stop pointing fingers at others in the financial
> industry since thousands of truly hardworking folks are losing jobs
> there as well. My husband and I lost our jobs in the tech crash.
> The strong and persistant ones recovered and we never asked you for
> your tax dollars to help us back on our feet.
>
> So grow up already and like the rest of us ... get a r e a l job
> !
A real job is nothing you know about unless you've worked on the assembly line!
First point you're missing: Imports are allowed in this country free of charge while our products are blocked with intimidations and tariffs.
second: We're the only country in the industrialized world with out nationalized health care, which puts corporate America at a disadvantage (the reason why Ontario CA. has become the new Michigan!
third: The only thing the UAW is guilty of is livable wages, health care benefits, pensions, vacation time, safe work environment, if this is what you call MAFIA, we should have more of it!
forth: If you don't thing manufacturing and its union wages did not create the middle class you should get out a little more...As our manufacturing jobs disappear so does the middle class and its buying power.
We're asked to compete with third world countries, their wages, their life style. in competition we'll be like them...
We should be careful of what we wish!!!!!!!!
I'm not sure how I can explain it further but I'll try.
Let's think about standard of living. Our standard of living costs something, its value has to be created from somewhere. Mother nature is a tough place. All the comforts we enjoy are due to somebody making it happen, creating value. Thus at its core, the standard of living for a country is simple. Its the total productivity, ie. value created, divided by the number of people. Because once all is said and done, collectively we all can't take more value than we collectively create. So to be simple, imagine if 10 people were dropped in a jungle and collectively harvested 10 pineapples, some collected 2 while some collected zero, but altogether they got 10. It would be impossible to have 2 pineapples each. The only way to get 2 pineapples each would be for the society to find a way to create 20 pineapples with the same 10 people.
It sounds simple, but really thats economics at its core. Its just that in this modern age we're many layers removed from the original economic problems of our ancestors so perhaps the laws of econ are harder to see as evident. Now what we consider bare necessities include mobile phones that can communicate across a continent, 200 channels of entertainment 24/7, advanced chemical compounds that extend our lives by reducing heart attack, and notebook PC's running on chips 10,000x faster than our brains. Standards of living haven't gone up? My arse. All of the above, unattainable just 20 years ago, you can have for under $1,000. But I digress.
So anyways, how do standards of living go up for a country? Create more value per person. This is inescapable fact. Just as laws of physics are inescapable.
And so how did the US create an economic miracle and a very high standard of living? On average, each worker created more and more value over time. Massively more value if we compare today with the birth of the nation. And as there is a limit to how long one can work in a day, most of this added value was due to discovering better ways to use people's labor to make things happen, with technological innovation. Labor alone doesn't create higher standard of living, labor has existed since the stone age. More advanced technology applied to labor is what makes the difference.
Now on an individual basis, we in the end either have to follow these same rules, or we need to mooch off of someone else who follows them. There is no way for 10 people to have 20 pineapples if 5 of them create 2 each and the other 5 create zero. Now of course there is a way to make everyone have 1 pineapple. Force the guys who have 2 to give 1 away. But soon many people realize that the smartest thing to do is to create zero and just take 1 from someone else. Thats called communism and history has shown us how that worked out, with China's initial economic problems, and then reform, as a prime example. Or just count the major human innovations which have come out of communist countries...
Thus on an individual basis, each of our standards of living must come from the value we create, unless we then go and infringe on other people's rights and force them to give us more value than we add. This is inescapable.
This is how it is at the core. This is basic economics. Blame mother nature, but don't blame other people in your society. Its life.
Now, the UAW is guilty of forcing wages and benefits beyond the value they provide, and doing it for a very long time. Eventually it killed the US auto industry, and it makes sense since they essentially were taking more than they provided their employers for years. Here's another analogy. Just imagine a box filled with money, invested by shareholders and creditors. And now imagine that each year a large group of people take more money out of the box, than they create in the box. Eventually, the box is empty, its not sustainable. I'm amazed at how many people fail to grasp this.
And thats the US auto industry. With the shareholders basically annihilated by this, the UAW is now killing the creditors who supplied the rest of the money in the box. If it just stopped there, then now it would be over. The money box would be empty, and the UAW's game would be over. It should have ended before the creditors got killed since by law, by contract, creditors have senior claims.
But what have they done? Well they've twisted the government to essentially ignore the law and to make things worse they've now started to tap into another box, a much larger box, called the US taxpayer, as a further step to avoid economic reality. And thats when I think a lot of American's have a very good reason to be angry.
Thats my problem with the UAW. If people want to enjoy a certain standard of living, why can't they just learn to earn it like the rest of us? Add at least as much value as you take from your company. If you need to earn more, then find ways to add more value. Its simple. Thats the real world most people face, and its the reality eventually someone has to face, even if they have to support moochers who leech off of them.
So why does the UAW get to strong arm the US taxpayer once they have killed the companies that provided their livelihood? You realize that most of the US economy, and most US people, has to live in the real world, facing the reality of economics, right? And actually most US companies are very successful, and most Americans are very successful, competing in open competition with the entire world. Most US companies do fine without the US having national health care.
See, none of the arguments for the UAW hold if one simply compares the auto industry with the majority of the US economy, thinks about basic econ, and reads history. Or simply considers individual property rights. Unfortunately, to the benefit of the UAW, most people do none of above. This is my last post on this thread. In either case, I wish you the best.
Yes, you are right, debate or no debate, Mother Nature is in the process right now to remove the burden of the UAW/CAW from those who labour for their own fruit through years of university, post-grad courses, certifications, weekends spent upgrading our skills, through falling on our knees and picking ourselves up. We may be bruised by the occassional firing, but hey - that very struggle makes us strong, and makes our kids strong as they learn from us about how to be independent and successful in the real world.
Now, Vincent, can you write about how we can get rid of the public unions strangeling our public purse? The CUPE (Canadian Union of Public Employees) being the next worst thing after the Soviet Union?
Sorry, 303820... you are looking for mercy in the wrong place. You may grab some of my tax dollars as you go down, but that's it my friend. Seeking Alpha pages are not for the weak.
On May 10 05:15 PM Vincent Fernando wrote:
> This will be my last reply. I appreciate your comments, but there
> is a point where I'll just let it be until the next article. 303820,
> you need to really understand how wages are created for people to
> earn. I'm talking basic economics, basic laws of economics. Not the
> more complex stuff that is debatable theory.
>
> I'm not sure how I can explain it further but I'll try.
>
> Let's think about standard of living. Our standard of living costs
> something, its value has to be created from somewhere. Mother nature
> is a tough place. All the comforts we enjoy are due to somebody making
> it happen, creating value. Thus at its core, the standard of living
> for a country is simple. Its the total productivity, ie. value created,
> divided by the number of people. Because once all is said and done,
> collectively we all can't take more value than we collectively create.
> So to be simple, imagine if 10 people were dropped in a jungle and
> collectively harvested 10 pineapples, some collected 2 while some
> collected zero, but altogether they got 10. It would be impossible
> to have 2 pineapples each. The only way to get 2 pineapples each
> would be for the society to find a way to create 20 pineapples with
> the same 10 people.
>
> It sounds simple, but really thats economics at its core. Its just
> that in this modern age we're many layers removed from the original
> economic problems of our ancestors so perhaps the laws of econ are
> harder to see as evident. Now what we consider bare necessities include
> mobile phones that can communicate across a continent, 200 channels
> of entertainment 24/7, advanced chemical compounds that extend our
> lives by reducing heart attack, and notebook PC's running on chips
> 10,000x faster than our brains. Standards of living haven't gone
> up? My arse. All of the above, unattainable just 20 years ago, you
> can have for under $1,000. But I digress.
>
> So anyways, how do standards of living go up for a country? Create
> more value per person. This is inescapable fact. Just as laws of
> physics are inescapable.
>
> And so how did the US create an economic miracle and a very high
> standard of living? On average, each worker created more and more
> value over time. Massively more value if we compare today with the
> birth of the nation. And as there is a limit to how long one can
> work in a day, most of this added value was due to discovering better
> ways to use people's labor to make things happen, with technological
> innovation. Labor alone doesn't create higher standard of living,
> labor has existed since the stone age. More advanced technology applied
> to labor is what makes the difference.
>
> Now on an individual basis, we in the end either have to follow these
> same rules, or we need to mooch off of someone else who follows them.
> There is no way for 10 people to have 20 pineapples if 5 of them
> create 2 each and the other 5 create zero. Now of course there is
> a way to make everyone have 1 pineapple. Force the guys who have
> 2 to give 1 away. But soon many people realize that the smartest
> thing to do is to create zero and just take 1 from someone else.
> Thats called communism and history has shown us how that worked out,
> with China's initial economic problems, and then reform, as a prime
> example. Or just count the major human innovations which have come
> out of communist countries...
>
> Thus on an individual basis, each of our standards of living must
> come from the value we create, unless we then go and infringe on
> other people's rights and force them to give us more value than we
> add. This is inescapable.
>
> This is how it is at the core. This is basic economics. Blame mother
> nature, but don't blame other people in your society. Its life.
>
>
> Now, the UAW is guilty of forcing wages and benefits beyond the value
> they provide, and doing it for a very long time. Eventually it killed
> the US auto industry, and it makes sense since they essentially were
> taking more than they provided their employers for years. Here's
> another analogy. Just imagine a box filled with money, invested by
> shareholders and creditors. And now imagine that each year a large
> group of people take more money out of the box, than they create
> in the box. Eventually, the box is empty, its not sustainable. I'm
> amazed at how many people fail to grasp this.
>
> And thats the US auto industry. With the shareholders basically annihilated
> by this, the UAW is now killing the creditors who supplied the rest
> of the money in the box. If it just stopped there, then now it would
> be over. The money box would be empty, and the UAW's game would be
> over. It should have ended before the creditors got killed since
> by law, by contract, creditors have senior claims.
>
> But what have they done? Well they've twisted the government to essentially
> ignore the law and to make things worse they've now started to tap
> into another box, a much larger box, called the US taxpayer, as a
> further step to avoid economic reality. And thats when I think a
> lot of American's have a very good reason to be angry.
>
> Thats my problem with the UAW. If people want to enjoy a certain
> standard of living, why can't they just learn to earn it like the
> rest of us? Add at least as much value as you take from your company.
> If you need to earn more, then find ways to add more value. Its simple.
> Thats the real world most people face, and its the reality eventually
> someone has to face, even if they have to support moochers who leech
> off of them.
>
> So why does the UAW get to strong arm the US taxpayer once they have
> killed the companies that provided their livelihood? You realize
> that most of the US economy, and most US people, has to live in the
> real world, facing the reality of economics, right? And actually
> most US companies are very successful, and most Americans are very
> successful, competing in open competition with the entire world.
> Most US companies do fine without the US having national health care.
>
>
> See, none of the arguments for the UAW hold if one simply compares
> the auto industry with the majority of the US economy, thinks about
> basic econ, and reads history. Or simply considers individual property
> rights. Unfortunately, to the benefit of the UAW, most people do
> none of above. This is my last post on this thread. In either case,
> I wish you the best.
On May 10 09:53 AM 303820 wrote:
> Smiling:
> A real job is nothing you know about unless you've worked on the
> assembly line!
knows how ignorant they are. I spent my last 20 years at GM in management but I worked on the line before that. I remember a letter written to Henry Ford by a wife of a worker who was paid $5 a day, 5 times more than in his previous job. She asked Mr. Ford to fire her husband because he was too exhausted to be a husband and father after taking the job at Ford. The only people that were
able to make it on the assembly line were the ones who grew up
as the poorest most athletic and toughest of Americans. No one
who grew up priviliged had a chance. It was just too hard for them.
As for the non-union workers at the transplant plants, while they
pay their American workers $12 an hour, the Japanese guy next to
him doing the same job makes $45 to $55 an hour. Been there -
done that. By the way, Japanese and German workers are paid
much more than UAW workers in their own countries.
How do these people expect American workers to compete with
Koreans who are paid 60 cents an hour or Mexicans who are paid
$1 an hour? Why won't the Japanese let us sell our cars in their
country? Because they wouldn't buy Japanese cars then - it
happened! And they shut it down.
So don't complain about UAW workers making too much money
until you have worked on the line. Chances are the people
complaining about the UAW above wouldn't make it through a
day on the line and they are propably driving foreign cars as
they complain about how hard it is to make it financially in the US.
Chances are, they are some of the people that say that the Toyotas
from NUMMI are top notch in quality while the GM products built
there are piss-poor quality. That has been going on for around 20
years now while the cars are exactly the same, built by the same
people, in the same plant - just with different badges.
They are not just anti-union, they are anti-American and THEY ARE
THE PROBLEM!
Just thinking about one of the first US females that took a job near
me on the line in 1976. The stall tool that she was using to shoot
shoulder harness bolts above her head got away from her and
allmost took her nose off. She continued to do her job, bleeding
profusely as she waited for her emergency relief. She eventually
wet her pants from the pain I guess, but she didn't miss a job until
her relief arrived. My thoughts were - now she's gonna make it.
She lost about 30 pounds her first month and about 20 the next.
What those ignorant anti-union people above don't understand is
that the UAW had to fight to get those emergency relief people.
On May 11 09:27 AM Pstoneki wrote:
> Please - I worked on the assembly line at 3 different GM plants.
> I now have a high tech white collar job. I work a lot harder now
> than I did on the line, I as an individual add more value to my company's
> bottom line than I ever did at GM, and I am not bored out of my mind
> every single second I am at work. 40 years installing IPs or window
> trim? At $70-100k a year with benefits? Ridiculous. That's what put
> GM were it is.
Please don't believe this guy folks,
The most I ever made was $80,000 in an assembly plant.
That wasn't working on the line 40 hours a week. That was as
a plant engineer/skilled trades supervisor working 7 days a week
and a minimum of 12 hours a day.
I also meant that the work I have today is much harder mentally. I'll give you that the assembly work was tough on the body. It was even worse on the mind.
You and I must have worked in different plants at GM. I saw a lot of people working hard. I also saw a lot of people who did nothing at all but couldn't be let go because they had 20 years in. I also saw (or rather, didn't see) the folks that never showed up for work.
The UAW is made up of a lot of individually good people. However, as an entity, it needs to go away. It has the power to corrupt even the most well-intentioned person. Good people, paid based on the merits of their contributions, would take any well run company a long way. Look at the US plants of Nissan, Toyota, Mercedes Benz, and BMW. However, the dead, demoralizing weight of employees who don't pull their weight but are allowed to stay will ruin companies like GM, Chrysler, and Ford. I felt I had to earn the right to keep my job every day. A lot of folks didn't feel that way. They felt a sense of entitlement. Not sure where they got that. That's why I left.
On May 11 10:55 AM scrapiron wrote:
>