UAW: It Should Be Giving Up More 128 comments
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Parents, next time little Johnny asks you what he should grow up to be - a lawyer, a fireman, or a doctor, just tell him to become an auto worker.
Seriously.
If you sit down and do the math you will discover that an 18-year-old high school graduate who remains with the UAW for 30 years will have the ability to earn 10% more than a 22-year practicing pediatrician. How is this so? Are we really paying our auto workers the equivalent of a physician?
According to the United Auto Worker's website, an entry level position with the union pays about $33,420 for the year. This includes their starting salary of $14.20/hour, a 6.4% retirement, a $1/hour payment to their health care fund, and a generous national PPO health insurance plan. Meanwhile, our pediatrician earns $0/hour working towards their degree while simultaneously taking on school loans. The following year, the union employee receives a pay increase of at least 3.75%. With that in mind and fast forwarding through time, the UAW worker will earn approximately $304,463 over the next 8 years. Meanwhile, according to the American Medical Association the average medical student will be $139,517 in debt upon receipt of their degree.
Considering a 25% federal income tax rate, and a 4.35% Michigan state income tax rate, our UAW employee will have taken home $215,103 in compensation for their 8 years. The difference in net worth between the auto worker and the doctor would stand at $354,620. If the auto worker invests their $215,000 at a modest 5% return, that amount will balloon to $350,380 in 10 years while the doctor's loans will end up costing $227,258 after 10 years at a 5% student loan rate.
This massive difference of $577,638 of net worth is why the doctor can never surpass the line worker. It's not until their 10th year that the starting pediatrician actually earns more than the line worker at their $30.065/hour average ($80,664 vs. $60,130), because most two year residencies pay less than the UAW.
In year nineteen of the calculations, the UAW worker will earn $63,130 in salary, $23,819 in retirement benefits value, and $18,366 in interest off the compounded value of their first eight years of work. The amount of $105,315 is nearly equal to the pediatrician earning their salary of $108,289, which typically has few benefits for the solo practitioner. While over the next 11 years the pediatrician will earn more than the line worker, they will never achieve a net worth greater than the UAW worker in part because of the generous benefits and the initial 8 years earnings which will have compounded to $629,232 by year 30. Total benefits to the worker during that time will amount to $352,805.
At year 30, the UAW worker will have achieved a net compensation of $2,447,597 versus the pediatrician’s $2,216,378, a winning margin of about 10%.
So we ask ourselves: Can America afford auto doctors?
With Chrysler in surgical bankruptcy, General Motors (GM) flirting with it and Ford Motor (F) trying to keep its head above water, these days there's one abbreviation upon many lips - the UAW. Between the bondholders and the UAW, these two factions hold the future of the Big Three in the palm of their hand. Reducing liabilities to both are necessary for the continuation of the American automobile industry.
Currently, things are not looking so good for the bondholders. Right now it appears that they will receive just 10 cents on the dollar according to the Wall Street Journal. This return of their principal will come in the form of common stock. Meanwhile, current share holders will be hit with a 100 to 1 reverse stock split, putting their ownership of the company at just 1%.
But what about the UAW, what are they going to give up? So far, concessions made by the union appear to be few and far between, forcing massive layoffs. President Obama currently appears to have the UAW's back; after all, the 721,025 active, retired, and spouse members of the UAW voted for him. Currently, GM is offering the UAW $10 billion in preferred stock at a 9% yield, along with $10 billion in cash, in exchange for $20 billion in obligation forgiveness. Is 100 cents on the dollar really fair when bondholders are getting just 10?
Honestly, the UAW should be giving up more, and we as a society should be asking for just that. Do we really consider a line technician of equal compensation as an experienced physician? A physician's decision can determine life or death. Is that equivalent in importance to putting a wheel on an axle? Regardless of the answer, that's how we are currently compensating our auto workers.
Why is the government satisfied in making the creditors eat the lion's share of the loss? Those nearly worthless GM bonds are held by mutual funds that represent many American retirees who need the steady income a bond provides. What about the $13.4 billion in loans the taxpayer gave GM? Why should half of it get swapped into common when the UAW gets preferred?
Even if GM avoids bankruptcy and continues on to 2010, paying and promising our auto workers a compensation level equivalent to our physicians is simply unsustainable. If America wants to continue to produce cars, it needs to be more innovative and competitive on the world's stage in terms of price and quality. Otherwise evolution, the survival of the fittest, will dictate the eventual extinction of the big three. The UAW should be mindful of this when it comes to the bargaining table, otherwise it will end up killing the goose that laid its golden egg.
Disclosure: F long
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This article has 128 comments:
He can't ..... he's using that $215,000 to feed his kid and put him through medical school.
We'll not even touch on the vast amount of bad decisions the US auto makers have made over the past 20 or so years the list is just way to big to tackle.
You speak of many things you obvisously know little about like the fact that there are numerous foreign and US vehicles made on the same exact assembly lines, with the same exact parts, with the same exact over paid workers in and outside the US. Such as the Toyota Matrix and the Pontiac Vibe made in California, the Chevrolet Colorado and Izuzu pickup truck made in Louisianna and those are only two of many. Both made by UAW workers. HMMM!
Without the likes of the UAW (yes, I am a member) which established a middle class working force many years ago there would be no need for doctors of any kind because people would simply not be able to afford them and they would still be working for chickens and apples pies as they did many years ago.
Trust me those of you who have never worked in the industry should not be commenting on it. Or if you do get all the facts and present them openly. Little do people realize not to many years back GM started out with 0% rebates on their fullsize trucks. By the end of the year they had a 6% rebate on them. What most of you nonautomotive related people didn't see is that the price of the truck rose by 12% that same year.
Do really believe lower wages will make the US Auto makers more competative. Do you think for a second that you will see a drop in their prices. Do you think any of the stock or bond holders will benefit from lower wages. Silly little boy!
If you know anything about being medicine...ask a real doctor about the physical beating of the assembly line workers...apparently you've never done any physical work in your life..according to your earnings you're not much of a doctor.I don't know any doctors that are not earning 6 figures!
GO BACK TO SCHOOL!!!!!!!!
On May 10 09:23 AM 303820 wrote:
> MR.Racki...you're an idiot!!!
> If you know anything about being medicine...ask a real doctor about
> the physical beating of the assembly line workers...apparently you've
> never done any physical work in your life..according to your earnings
> you're not much of a doctor.I don't know any doctors that are not
> earning 6 figures!
> GO BACK TO SCHOOL!!!!!!!!
The fact that you actually wrote about something you obviously know very little about says volumes.You never worked in a factory,or ran a machine,or lost a finger or hand,because of poor working conditions,and lack of safeguards.No one ever talks about the change in conditions the UAW helped to bring to the auto industry.Yet you want people to feel sorry for the medical profession?You really want to do the right thing Troy?Quit wasting your time crying about how bad your lot in life is,and help some people that have lost their jobs and insurance.At a reduced rate of course.
You're one of those anti-union HYPOCRITES that complain whether we earn $28hr or $14.50hr...do yourself a favor and move to China...their wages are a steady $.33hr for every one!
On May 10 10:50 AM mcl_mixer wrote:
> Boo-Hoo. Poor GM, Ford, and Chrysler UAW workers. You sold out all
> of your future new hires and your union brothers and sisters at Delphi,
> Visteon, American Axle, etc. Now you want people to feel sorry for
> you?
He forgot to mention the fact that Rick Wagner received $16.8 MILLION in pay and compensation on a year that GM lost several Billions. That is $64,615 a day, 5 days a week 52 weeks a year. The average line worker makes that in a year with overtime. The CEO'S of our foreign competitors make and average of 25 to 35 times as much as the average worker. Not Rick he thought he deserved 260 times as much. Not to mention what the other exec. got paid. They want to be competitive than start at the top and work down. If you look at the fact that GM employees almost 30,000 salary workers compared to 61,000 hourly worker in the US you would see that there are way to may Chiefs for the amount of Indians. They have supervisors for the supervisors and so on and so forth. You have to remember if you don't directly work on the vehicle you don't add ant value to the vehicle. Keep in mind that only 5% of the sticker price is hourly labor cost. That isn't much.
It wasn't the autoworkers or the UAW that made the choice of car design. It was the exec's choices. It is managements choice to ship vehicle down the line when parts do fit right or are defective not the worker. All management cares about is how fast they can run the line. 90% of the supervisors and upper management would last 2 hours on line.
In the Last Contract of 2007 the UAW caved into GM Demand for the Placement of their Health Care into a so called VEBA. Now the Federal Government is making the VEBA to Accept Worthless Domestic Auto Stock as Contribution into the VEBA to Fund it. Wow ........ that will last along time won't it ???? Even without the Worthless Stock Contributions .... VEBA's are Notorious for Going Broke for being Underfunded to begin with.
And lets Not forget the Bait and Switch Factor with GM's Spin Off of Delphi. They Spun it off, then a short time later Delphi Filed for Bankruptcy and NOW GM want a Large Part of Delphi Back for Penny's on the Dollar. Wow ... what a Coincidence !!!!!!! Kind of looks like it was Planned that way to Destroy More Union Jobs !!!
The USA has truly become the Great Babylon where Money and Pursuit of Money is God and we ALL know what the Real True God does to False Gods. He Takes them Down and so Wall Street is going Down and it is taking Washington DC and it's Army of Crooked Lobbyist Lawyers with them.
We all Love the Blessed USA and the Flag that Symbolizes our Wonderful Country but for Now a Great Evil is upon us and it is Wall Street/ DC Greed on a Scale never seen since the Original Babylon of Thousands of years ago.
The United States of America desperately Needs the Real True GOD and the Sooner the Better when we Look for Him !!!!
Lasty the USA Desperately needs to Replace our Two Wall Street CFR/TC Controlled Political Two Main Party's with a New, Clean and Fresh Political Party.
constitutionparty.org
Troy,
I believe that you definitely need more education before you speak.
Let's go BACK in automotive history....Just WHY were those Unions even formed in the first place? Could it be because Ford used to hire "henchmen" to beat those who even talked of better working conditions? Are you even aware of what the working conditions used to be like? Would any of you work in sweat shops where you couldn't even go to the bathroom? One of the first thing that the Unions created was a better working environment...(wow... a 15 minute break every couple of hours..so you could go to the bathroom)...then some type of insurance due to the HAZARDS in working in such environments....( these things are taken for granted at this time...but they all had to be negotiated.)
I started at GM in 1974...I diligently worked there for 31.5 years...during that time I received a torn rotary cuff (shoulder injury), a broken thumb, scalding from over 200 degree water....These are called Industrial Accidents..I have seen people mauled only to be drug off their job..and immediately replaced...just to keep the line going...How many "writers" have these types of accidents? How many "investors" would even consider working under these conditions?
Now I must admit that the automotive industry has gotten MUCH better concerning Safety....MUCH better... But there was a time when things weren't so great.
I started out making $7.00 per hour in 1974...and was up to about $26.00 per hour 30 years later... you do the math $ 19.00 divided by 30 equals$0.63 cents per hour per year raise. Are you saying that a person isn't worthy of a $0.63 an hour per year raise?
When times were good we all made out but 15 years ago when things got touchy we all took pay freezes...all the employees figured out better build processes...we had to to stay alive....Did management take pay freezes? Yeah right....WE are all supposed to be working together...it is ALL OF OUR jobs at stake...
Now take a look at GM management, take Roger Smith, for example, who darn near ran GM into the ground within a 3 year period...took MILLIONS in severance PLUS a 2 MILLION per year retirement package...then made it where it could never be done in the future. Hey that's really looking out for the company. (at that time the President of this Great US of America was only making $250,000 per year).
If you will do your research....manpower is only about 4% ...I repeat 4% of the total cost of building a vehicle....The BIGGEST cost is parts "transportation&q... costs of getting the parts to the plants.
So for those of you that are more than happy to sit back and blame the UNIONS...may I suggest that you do a little further research...you may be surprised what you may find.
Dig DEEP ...very DEEP...learn what you are talking about before you criticize.
I have over 31.5 years EXPERIENCE and I KNOW what I am talking about...I have lived it.
Sincerely and respectfully,
Fcountry
$250. This includes labor and material and shipping. The "STICKER" price is $23,000 to $26,000. A profit of $ 17,000 to $20,000 per van, subtract the " overhead" costs and tell me whos right and whos wrong in this WAR between the UAW and GM. GM pays inept floor advisors (management) $65,000 to $75,000 per year to be attendance clerks. This is Fact. You are a JOKE.
No offense meant...but I just looked at your profile...trying to see any credentials that may give you any credence...
**********************...
Troy Racki, DDS is faculty at Loma Linda University School of Dentistry. He has been a personal investor since March 13th, 2000, having the distinction of buying the Nasdaq 100 (QQQQ), then QQQ, at the intraday high of its lifetime high.
**********************...
Would you please stick to YOUR profession....something that you may know something about....
I promise that I will never be blogging and complaining about Dentists work..
Another thing... Dental Insurance PAYS you Dentist...I wouldn't be complaining too much about others benefits. From what I see from my dentist's bill for a family of 4...you get paid pretty darned well...much more than an Auto employee....
Are you any better than them/ I think not....come back down to Earth.
"It is not uncommon for medical school graduates to work 80 to 100 hours a week, with surgical residents typically logging over 110 hours a week. Medical residencies traditionally require lengthy hours of their trainees. Classically, 36-hour shifts are separated by 12 hours of rest, during 100+ hour weeks. The American public, and the medical education establishment, is increasingly recognizing that such long hours are counter-productive, since sleep deprivation increases rates of medical errors."
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...)
The average 1st year resident salary is: $46,000.
mdsalaries.blogspot.co...
Occupational hazards include: "Infections due to the exposure to blood, body fluids or tissue specimens possibly leading to blood-borne diseases such as HIV, Hepatitis B and Hepatitis C."
HIV, Hepatitis B and Hepatitis C are all lethal. Hepatitis B is the only of these three with a vaccine.
(www-ilo-mirror.cornell...)
"Laid-off blue-collar workers would still get most of their pay because their United Auto Workers union contract requires the company to make up much of the difference between state unemployment benefits and their wages.
GM also will pay salaried workers 75 percent of their pay if they are furloughed under a new company policy. In the past, white-collar workers reported for duty even if their plants were closed, spokesman Tom Wilkinson said."
www.seattlepi.com/busi...
I do not agree with Mr. Nardelli's compensation. He is now CEO at Chrysler where full compensation details are being withheld. However:
"According to the report, Home Depot's board has awarded him $245 million in his five years at the helm."
money.cnn.com/2006/05/.../
As others have stated stick with writing on what you might know something about because you have proven how little you know on this subject.
On another note....you complain about benefits..I find this very ODD coming from you.
Just WHY did the Union have to negotiate health benefits in the FIRST place?...What is the most common item that is considered a "benefit" when looking at perspective jobs? Health care benefits...
WHY? That is pretty "self explanatory" now isn't it?...
It is because of the exorbitant fees and charges made by your cohorts. If your prices were lower then we wouldn't need Medical, Dental or Vision coverage now would we?
So to solve your delimma about other workers needing "benefits" to cover the large bills:
I am sure that your profession and your other (so called)" "Professional" friends will be more than glad to LOWER the price of Office visits, Exams, X-rays, Surgeries etc. RIGHT??? Yeah Right.
I find it also very strange...that on a recent trip to the hospital I read a sign stating" If you pay for surgery in cash,instead of going through your insurance... it would be a 50% REDUCTION in costs."
So now I guess that given (YOUR) logic...we can blame the Auto workers plight on the Medical Field and Insurance companies themselves for charging such EXORBITANT fees. Right?
Then should we go to Gov't Medical where you will get set fees...(MUCH) lower than what you are getting now.
For the good of the PEOPLE (and not the Doctors) mabey that is what America needs to do.
On May 10 02:19 PM Troy Racki wrote:
> Valid arguements have been made by comments above. Feel free to consider the following..
> Occupational hazards include: "Infections due to the exposure to
> blood, body fluids or tissue specimens possibly leading to blood-borne
> diseases such as HIV, Hepatitis B and Hepatitis C."
>
> HIV, Hepatitis B and Hepatitis C are all lethal. Hepatitis B is
> the only of these three with a vaccine.
>
> (www-ilo-mirror.cornell...)
Are you saying that Industrial Accidents aren't lethal ? I have seen coworkers literally DIE due to heart attacks "on the job" at less than 50 years of age...peoples fingers get cut off, plus the long term injuries due to the nature of the beast. Believe me, by the time that you have accumulated enough years to retire....most of your body and energy is all used up.
The average number of monthly checks drawn by retired GM "Blue
Collar" workers is...17. That is 17 Monthly checks before they die.
Check your facts.
At least washing you hands and wearing rubber gloves and masks will protect YOU...
( Obama said so last week )
************
> "Laid-off blue-collar workers would still get most of their pay because their United Auto Workers union contract requires the company to make up much of the difference between state unemployment benefits and their wages.
First of all the workers HAVE to be eligible for State Unemployment benefits ...then sub will kick in ...Now SUB is a purchased "INSURANCE" policy that has already been paid for...neither GM or The UAW pays the money.
**********************...
> GM also will pay salaried workers 75 percent of their pay if they
> are furloughed under a new company policy. In the past, white-collar workers reported for duty even if their plants were closed, spokesman
> Tom Wilkinson said."
>
> www.seattlepi.com/busi...
No SIR...The JOB Bank has been ELIMINATED for the Blue Collar workers....It is NOW in effect for the White collar people who will be asked to take time off at reduced pay....The COMPANY will be paying the White Collar people.
**********************...
Now Troy...I have a question for you.
Why is it that when I get a cold or upper respiratory problem ...say in Taiwan...I can go to the Dr. there in Taipei...he will see me,check me out...prescribe the medicine...PLUS FILL the meds there in his office and the WHOLE cost is about $20.00 USD
Taiwan has very FINE Doctors...VERY well educated.
Yet when I go to an M.D. HERE in the States...it costs me about $100.00USD (because of my LOUSY GM retirement benefits) just to be seen...plus they turn in paperwork to the insurance company. ..and then I have to go get my prescription filled somewhere else where I will have to pay between $10.00- $60.00 (depending on what my LOUSY GM Retirement benefits will pay for.)
Now mind you that scenerio was just for a "cold".
With clinics that just "rent" their "Temporary Dr.s"
Surgeries and "Specialists run MUCH higher"...try walking into a "Specialist Office"....just to say Hello is $150.00 - $200.00
Can you please explain the HUGE difference or even the "Ridiculous COSTS" for a simple cold.....where WE are the ones that tell the Dr. what is wrong with us...I even tell him what medicine that take.
Can you answer that simple question?
CAREFUL OF WHAT YOU WISH...YOU MIGHT GET IT!
On May 10 03:00 PM btex wrote:
> Who has the most to lose if GM shuts down - THE UAW ! ! ! !
Why are you all so "dead set" against the American Auto workers?..
Go back and read your articles..
WE have worked hard all our lives...we have put the American people first...knowing that if we didn't produce "Quality Vehicles" that we would be proud to drive ourselves, that the American Buyers would go else where.. It was/is our livelihood.
We had NO decision as to what GM designed...
From "startup" in assembling new products to "determining and correcting" flaws...we were there 100%.
So just why in the world does the critical people at Seeking Alpha want to "drive US to ruin"?
It is very easy to just sit behind a desk , "spew" disinformation and and be critical of things that they really have no idea what they are talking about.
What has happened to honest, intellectual and informative reporting? It sure seems to be lacking here.
Enough of my rant...I am taking my Mother out to dinner...
Have a Happy Mothers Day...treat you Mom well...she is the only one that you will ever have. If it wasn't for Her where would YOU be?
FC
I concur with you that the UAW should give up more. But shouldn't they?
Obviously they don't want to, counting the backing of their buddy in the WH. As usual with politics, every party is in there to maximize their gain.
Some say it is like playing Black Jack. You keep on dealing your hand until it bursts.
So, in the end, again, tragedy strikes twice, and reality will dictate the outcome - the Mighty Dollar rules. Consumers will only buy superior cars - it is a fiercely competitive open market. The ones who make, or continue to make inferior cars will just go away.
Teutonic
On May 10 07:34 PM LillyM wrote:
> The UAW once upon a time had a purpose. Now they live in a fairy
> tale world and won't come down to earth. They must understand how
> the carmakers need to be competitive and adjust their demands accordingly.
> But then ... that is a fairy tale, too.
Here's another angle:
If we were more like other civilized countries, we would have free medical care for all citizens, and subsidize medical education. Then your hypothetical pediatrician would not have to spend half his career paying off his debts, and auto makers would not have to spend 1/3 of their HR budget on medical programs. That would level the playing field to everyone's benefit.
This article is crap but just to be sure the author is not from "academia". He is a professional dentist (I think). But I do agree that he is an idiot.
On May 10 09:56 AM ex GM emp wrote:
> To all posters refuting his numbers: What do you expect from academia?
> They are the ones who brought us the economy we have TODAY!
Listening to your posts it is as though you think you work harder and have it rougher than anyone else. Well, you don't. Lots of folks have worked overtime, long hours and holidays. Lots of folks have come home from work bone tired after a hard day or a hard week. The only difference is that you guys have a bloated pay and benefit scale that is not in line with your education level or your skills. Well, your glass house has been shattered and now you will just have to adjust. And you should not expect any sympathy from the rest of us...welcome to the REAL WORLD.
On May 10 09:12 PM MyPerspective wrote:
> Wow it seems that all you union folks can do is resort to personal
> attacks and name-calling. The dentist is entitled to his opinion,
> and if you disagree with him make your argument intelligently instead
> of having a fit. You are only contributing to the negative perception
> that people have of you.
>
> Listening to your posts it is as though you think you work harder
> and have it rougher than anyone else. Well, you don't. Lots of folks
> have worked overtime, long hours and holidays. Lots of folks have
> come home from work bone tired after a hard day or a hard week. The
> only difference is that you guys have a bloated pay and benefit scale
> that is not in line with your education level or your skills. Well,
> your glass house has been shattered and now you will just have to
> adjust. And you should not expect any sympathy from the rest of us...welcome
> to the REAL WORLD.
**********************...
My perspective,
You have EVERY right to your opinion...I hope that my posts have not offended anyone...that was never my intent.I was simply stating the TRUTH about what has transpired over the past 30 years that I have lived the Automakers life.
As to me bringing up the extremely high costs of health care...well my friend it is an ABSOLUTE Truth...just ask ANY American in ANY field of endeavor.
People paying $200.00...300.00...$40... per MONTH to to pay for "Health INSURANCE" is completely ludicrous (whether is is used or not).
Now for Months we have heard from the "Seeking Alpha Team" how we are so overpaid...and quite frankly, I am rather tired of it.
BUT...once the scenario is "turned around and we start looking at the realities of the situation....you cry "foul". I find that rather interesting.....also amusing.
Stop and think about this....the human body hasn't changed..in THOUSANDS of years...and Yes Dr.s and Dentists have to go to school to learn about them...but the body hasn't really changed much and MD's still treat symptoms like they have for years.
We have some VERY fine Dr.s here in the States and I applaud each and every one of them that took the time to learn their profession....but don't you think that is is rather unusual that the US Dr.s are paid more than in any other country in the whole world?
AS for Auto builders....vehicles change every few years...they have to learn new technologies ...new processes....new body parts...new communication and electrical systems...new hydraulic and emission systems.
So as for you comment about our education level....I take a very personal.
You may claim that the Dr.s do it out of compassion...if that is the case I am sure that the whole "Profession" would be willing to work for a Socialized Medicine Program...for the good of the people...(with a hefty cut in pay)......After all that is exactly what you are asking us to do.
Obama stated that one of his goals is to get the price of Health Care down to an affordable for all Americans....so guess what...your next....welcome to the REAL World.
But that's ok, because I am quite sure that a person of your Education Level will be more than glad to "pitch in" and do your part.
Respectfully,
FC
I can’t even imagine why you would want to post this nonsense. At the end of thirty years the assembly workers base salary would have increased from $29,536.00 to $92,446.00 using your 3.75% increase each year. Roughly $1.00 per hour increase each year. On the other hand – the website you direct us to shows that the average Pediatricians starting salary is $159K and he/she is at the low end of the pay scale (Family Med is $172K) mdsalaries.blogspot.co.... If I use the same logic (3.75%) a Pediatricians annual salary would be $379,851.00 at the end of a 20 year career and I think I’m being conservative based on the discussion in the blog. As one MD points out – “why would anybody spend half their life going to school, accumulate $150k in debt to make $50k per year”.
I think your figures are based on a 1st year Residents salary and never considers the increase that occurs when one transitions from Resident to MD. Totaling up earnings 20 years versus 30 years has a Doc accumulating $5.0 M versus Assembler @ $1.7M. At the end of the day – I don’t’ get to tell you how much your time is worth and you don’t get to tell me how much my time is worth.
For the record – I am a salaried MBA employed in the Auto industry. I don’t like what’s going on with the hourly employee’s salaries. It hurts you…it hurts me and it hurts them. Trickle down hasn’t worked in a long time because it’s trickling down to other low cost countries. My Engineers are now in Mexico….our assistants are in India and we are training the Chinese to take over our jobs. When my two “Johnies” were ready to go off to college – we told them that if their career choices did not have them touching someone’s body or required them to speak/interact face to face – find another career. Both will graduate this year with degrees in education and social work….two areas that have not been outsourced yet.
On May 10 02:19 PM Troy Racki wrote:
> Valid arguements have been made by comments above. Feel free to consider
> the following.
>
> "It is not uncommon for medical school graduates to work 80 to 100
> hours a week, with surgical residents typically logging over 110
> hours a week. Medical residencies traditionally require lengthy hours
> of their trainees. Classically, 36-hour shifts are separated by 12
> hours of rest, during 100+ hour weeks. The American public, and the
> medical education establishment, is increasingly recognizing that
> such long hours are counter-productive, since sleep deprivation increases
> rates of medical errors."
>
> (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...)
>
> The average 1st year resident salary is: $46,000.
>
> mdsalaries.blogspot.co...;br/>
>
> Occupational hazards include: "Infections due to the exposure to
> blood, body fluids or tissue specimens possibly leading to blood-borne
> diseases such as HIV, Hepatitis B and Hepatitis C."
>
> HIV, Hepatitis B and Hepatitis C are all lethal. Hepatitis B is the
> only of these three with a vaccine.
>
> (www-ilo-mirror.cornell...)
>
>
> "Laid-off blue-collar workers would still get most of their pay because
> their United Auto Workers union contract requires the company to
> make up much of the difference between state unemployment benefits
> and their wages.
>
> GM also will pay salaried workers 75 percent of their pay if they
> are furloughed under a new company policy. In the past, white-collar
> workers reported for duty even if their plants were closed, spokesman
> Tom Wilkinson said."
>
> www.seattlepi.com/busi...
>
> I do not agree with Mr. Nardelli's compensation. He is now CEO at
> Chrysler where full compensation details are being withheld. However:
>
>
> "According to the report, Home Depot's board has awarded him $245
> million in his five years at the helm."
>
> money.cnn.com/2006/05/.../
On May 10 10:09 PM fcountry wrote:
>
These data are current for 2009. It ranks the top 25 paying professions. Of the top 15 paying jobs in the U.S., 14 are in the medical field. Yes, I repeat 14 with average salaries as high as about $200,000. The exception is # 10, which belongs to CEOs. Lawyers do not come in until # 16.
Blue collar workers are no where on this list.
Supposedly lowly paid pediatricians come in at # 13 with a salary of $153,000 a 5.6 percent increase from last year. Dentists come in at #14, with a salary of $142,000, an 18 percent increase from last year. Yes, 18 percent increase.
The sad part is that the training of these physicians and dentisits is frequently subsidized by tax dollars. To boot, millions of Americans cannot afford to see a doctor.
Something is wrong here.
back in the 60's the work was truly difficult. since then the co has introduced so many lift aids and positioning systems that work conditions have improved dramaticaly.
also, why do so many americans feel indifferent to the uaw. it is because of the arrogant posturing over the years.
now with the bondholders getting screwed at the expense of the uaw by the how many more car buyers will abandon gm.
i hope to buy a gm car as soon as the le clair is out. but i cannot
find sympathy for the uaw members, with their excessive retirement and health care that no one else has. wake up guys.
tell your leaders bondholders and uaw should share the haircut equally. how many more will sales will be lost if this inequity is allowed. there are more bondholder in small bond funds than uaw members. more sales will be lost in the future.
especially for your civiliced wording.
you´ve got a new follower.
On May 10 07:56 PM Alan Young wrote:
> Wow, tough crowd! I agree with the general thesis of the critiques,
> but I don't think they benefit from getting personal.
>
> Here's another angle:
>
> If we were more like other civilized countries, we would have free
> medical care for all citizens, and subsidize medical education. Then
> your hypothetical pediatrician would not have to spend half his career
> paying off his debts, and auto makers would not have to spend 1/3
> of their HR budget on medical programs. That would level the playing
> field to everyone's benefit.
There's and easy answer to the problem. Force the 51,000 ships that traverse the oceans bring goods from low cost countries to our shores to burn biodiesel and meet the same emission standards as our cars. The cost of logistics will increase to such a level that we won't have to discuss this anymore because it will be more competitive for us to make our own stuff again.
On May 11 01:41 AM Other Guy wrote:
> Wahhhh. I'm union and my job is soooo tough. Soooo dangerous. I deserve
> to make more money than everybody else. I deserve to drive my company
> into bankruptcy. And because I'm so precious, everyone should pay
> extra taxes, and extra for the cars I make, so that my overbloated
> industry can survive. Please support my union and my political lackeys.
> Nevermind that the doctors don't enjoy the same privilege to throw
> a fit and strike until I get my demands met. Poor me. I'm going to
> get my relatives at the Longshoreman's union to throw a strike to
> prevent technology from making his job more efficient, and stop international
> trade to prove our point. Goooo Union. Good for everyone. Everyone
> in the union.
On May 11 09:08 AM MyPerspective wrote:
> If this unequitable deal is allowed to go through that greatly favors
> UAW over bondholders, I will personally NEVER buy a Chrysler or GM
> vehicle again. (and yes, I do drive one now) There are hundreds of
> thousands of consumers just like me that feel like their only recourse
> against this unfairness is to vote with our pocketbooks and WE WILL.
> I am afraid that UAW, Obama, and company are making a big mistake
> and that they underestimate the ire of the people who ultimately
> must be pleased with what happens if they are to continue buying
> the products,
Everyone made their points. It's time to rebuild. It's time to auction off all GM, Chrysler or any other manufacturers assets. I don't care, give it a new name! It's time to restart with or without the union. It's time to get the working conditions, and compensation plan corrected for all ... CEO, assemblers, or physicians. It's time to set New Rules.
Now, if any one violates the "New Rules", do what the Chinese did... they took the manager out to the company courtyard and executed him. Yes, with real bullets! Now! that will get our auto industry going in the right direction again.
BTW, the New Rules doesn't include bailout. I'm sorry! I can't give you the taxpayer's money so you can sit there and complain.
That being said, I understand there is overhead in a dental office. The receptionists ($10/hr? ), the rent for the office, utilities, utensils, office cleaning, record keeping, and magazines. After the dentist saw me for his 2 1/2 minutes; the dental assistant finished up with me and I saw the dentist relaxing with one of his golf magazines in a side office cubicle. At any rate, the rationale for this kind of article is futile, and merits no real purpose. As others have said how many people will be going regularly to the dentist if they keep losing health benefits? I know so called successful college educated MBA's, IT professionals, and other business professionals who don't go to the dentist regularly simply because of the cost and/or their insurance is absent for dental care and they wince at paying so much for routine dental care. Now that is a personal choice, but it does illustrate what I think is the crux of the real problem here: Costs for all kinds of services, utilities, energy, etc have gotten out of hand while middle men, HMO's, etc have made profits out of the health care industry and other service areas. Look at the Haliburton scandals and worse.
The truth is that anyone making less than $18 an hour today has no real buying power, let alone the means for paying into a 401K, paying his/her own health care cost ( or escalated copays). In most areas of this country $36K - $38K/ yr won't even get you into a decent car to take to work or use for your family; not to mention decent housing. At this pay, forget about seeing the USA in your Chevrolet. I've grown up and lived to see a dwindling, greedy economy that rewards swindlers and opportunists on Wall street, building up a higher and higher proportion of "well to do" people working as middle men to skim huge profits out of the so called service sector; be it investment management, HMOs, communications, computer operations, and other technological and financial entities that didn't exist years ago. All this begs the question: "How are we really better off than we were 50 years ago?"
The problems we have now in this economy are systemic and have compounded over the last 30+ years. Most citizens in other countries realize the value of their industrial and manufacturing base and don't harbor jealousies of what laborers get for compensation. The whole global economy is now out of balance. High levels of consumerism can not be maintained with disproportionate share of monies. Years ago, a 5% - 8% rate of return on an investment was considered desirable and stable. This was considered both a reasonable and desirable rate of return on investments. Greed in the finance and housing industry led us here, along with obscene profits in the oil industry and CEOs compensation packages. Deriding and criticizing laborers in the auto industry is misplaced anger at best, and class prejudice at worst.
Similar agreements are often made saying the price of an MBA is not worth it, however if you go to a strong program and improve your career, many of these studies fail to recognize that you can rapidly pay down loans and don't have to wait 10+ years at 6-9% interest.
On May 10 07:34 PM LillyM wrote:
> The UAW once upon a time had a purpose. Now they live in a fairy
> tale world and won't come down to earth. They must understand how
> the carmakers need to be competitive and adjust their demands accordingly.
> But then ... that is a fairy tale, too.
On May 11 11:29 AM pookadoo wrote:
> Stop it! stop the complaining....
> Everyone made their points. It's time to rebuild. It's time to auction
> off all GM, Chrysler or any other manufacturers assets. I don't care,
> give it a new name! It's time to restart with or without the union.
> It's time to get the working conditions, and compensation plan corrected
> for all ... CEO, assemblers, or physicians. It's time to set New
> Rules.
>
> Now, if any one violates the "New Rules", do what the Chinese did...
> they took the manager out to the company courtyard and executed him.
> Yes, with real bullets! Now! that will get our auto industry going
> in the right direction again.
>
> BTW, the New Rules doesn't include bailout. I'm sorry! I can't give
> you the taxpayer's money so you can sit there and complain.
The Detroit Three's problems can be layed right at the feet of management, not the union. The UAW won nothing the company negotiators didn't give away.
Employers can choose to stand up or give up. The Detroit Three gave up. Caterpillar stood up ... and is doing just fine without having to pass all employee-related decisions through the political morass of a union like the UAW.
The Big Three's demise should seal the labor movement's tomb. But obviously, there will be 71 or more old, passionate volunteers to roll away the stone from the mouth of the tomb ...and let all the stinky thoughts flow out into the public's nostrils again.
That this kind of mentality still lingers in America makes me puke!
Dave
How do you figure that Troy is 100% correct?...his numbers aren't realistic, factual nor truthful.
As for the pro-union people...I think that they make a extremely good points....
WHAT IF...Any of the other dentists were to make these comments to their patients? Do you think that they would have very many "return patients"? (You are actually not describing Autoworkers but the whole middle class as a whole.)
With lower wages and Without dental insurance...how many will be making regular dental visits if they can't afford such high expenses?
This also extends into the Medical field also.
I believe any intelligent person can understand that.
On May 11 01:02 PM dividendgrowthinvestor wrote:
> Forget the specific numbers.The author is 100% correct on here and
> ANY fair minded person agrees
Both auto workers and doctors do tough physical labor, just in different ways. Auto workers do repeated physical movements in the same positions, putting alot of stress, especially on the physical body joints. Doctors, especially when starting out, do extremely long shifts (sometimes up to 36 hours), and suffer from chronic sleep deprivation.
Although the additional perspective here is good, the case should have been made along economic lines, discussing unsustainable retirement benefits. Unions are not always making deals that are in the best interests of the people they represent. They often limit their own constituents' choices, and hamstring the organization by burdening them with massive obligations.
We need a strong middle class, which is the foundation of any strong democratic economy. But now with the lure of offshoring and globalization, companies are quick to take the bait and cannibalize their own domestic workforces and consumers by moving high paying jobs out of the country. The question is, how do we get back to a solid blue-collar economic base while keeping labor agile?
VERY well said...I agree with you 1000%
On May 11 11:44 AM User 387439 wrote:
> I must concur that the authors credentials and very skewed "facts"
> destroy any credibility of his article. In addition, as other posters
> stated, this dentist is not immune to his own line of reasoning.
> I go to the dentist twice a year. My last visit was $173 for a routine
> checkup and cleaning. In my 45 minutes in the chair, the dental assistant
> spent most of that time. I saw the actual dentist for a total of
> about 2 1/2 minutes by my watch. So most of the "labor" for that
> visit got handled for less than the $14/hr the dental assistant gets
> paid ( yes, I asked and have asked many times when I visit).
> That being said, I understand there is overhead in a dental office.
> The receptionists ($10/hr? ), the rent for the office, utilities,
> utensils, office cleaning, record keeping, and magazines. After the
> dentist saw me for his 2 1/2 minutes; the dental assistant finished
> up with me and I saw the dentist relaxing with one of his golf magazines
> in a side office cubicle. At any rate, the rationale for this kind
> of article is futile, and merits no real purpose. As others have
> said how many people will be going regularly to the dentist if they
> keep losing health benefits? I know so called successful college
> educated MBA's, IT professionals, and other business professionals
> who don't go to the dentist regularly simply because of the cost
> and/or their insurance is absent for dental care and they wince at
> paying so much for routine dental care. Now that is a personal choice,
> but it does illustrate what I think is the crux of the real problem
> here: Costs for all kinds of services, utilities, energy, etc have
> gotten out of hand while middle men, HMO's, etc have made profits
> out of the health care industry and other service areas. Look at
> the Haliburton scandals and worse.
> The truth is that anyone making less than $18 an hour today has no
> real buying power, let alone the means for paying into a 401K, paying
> his/her own health care cost ( or escalated copays). In most areas
> of this country $36K - $38K/ yr won't even get you into a decent
> car to take to work or use for your family; not to mention decent
> housing. At this pay, forget about seeing the USA in your Chevrolet.
> I've grown up and lived to see a dwindling, greedy economy that rewards
> swindlers and opportunists on Wall street, building up a higher and
> higher proportion of "well to do" people working as middle men to
> skim huge profits out of the so called service sector; be it investment
> management, HMOs, communications, computer operations, and other
> technological and financial entities that didn't exist years ago.
> All this begs the question: "How are we really better off than we
> were 50 years ago?"
> The problems we have now in this economy are systemic and have compounded
> over the last 30+ years. Most citizens in other countries realize
> the value of their industrial and manufacturing base and don't harbor
> jealousies of what laborers get for compensation. The whole global
> economy is now out of balance. High levels of consumerism can not
> be maintained with disproportionate share of monies. Years ago, a
> 5% - 8% rate of return on an investment was considered desirable
> and stable. This was considered both a reasonable and desirable rate
> of return on investments. Greed in the finance and housing industry
> led us here, along with obscene profits in the oil industry and CEOs
> compensation packages. Deriding and criticizing laborers in the auto
> industry is misplaced anger at best, and class prejudice at worst.
I am not in the business, have never worked on a line, in management or had anytying to do with the industry. That being said, I find it hard for anyone to doubt the difficulty with doing some of the jobs. Also, unless anyone here was in the room...we will never know exactly what went in in management meetings. So, as an outside observer, both sides have contributed to the issue. The industry itself set the standard for the world and now is totally broke. Companies not willing to adapt deserve the consequences. The Eurex Echange was trying to work with the CBOT with electronic trading........the CBOT was busy building the worlds best trading floor, and could not be bothered with this new company. Shortly thereafter the Eurex offered a 'Fee Holiday' for a period of time and just about put the LIFFE exchange out of business!
Is the UAW still the best thing for the majority of workers?
Has it become something you must join or suffer terrible reprisal?
Does anyone at the GM - UAW negotiating table really think its all about the crazy credit crisis....and next year will be better?
Bankruptcy seems to be the place where all bets are off the contracts can be rewritten. Both parties deserve the blame and the taxpayer pays for them to negotiate and 'feel good' about winding it down!
The space shuttle just went off a while ago. The US Space Shuttle....not the Afghan or Belgian or Swiss or Russian shuttle. Totally awesome to watch, makes you think about the great stuff that gets thought up here. So, I gotta hunch we can make cars again....we are wasting time here.
MDR,
Obviously you have never had to work in an Auto factory...good for you. There are many of us that did...I have no complaints...it was a job and my livelihood that has provided for my family.
My wife used to work for Delta Airlines (before they went into BK)..but she was furloughed....BUT my point being...when she told me that Delta was trying to go "Union"...I advised her against it...
You know why...(and I am a union person)....the reason WHY...was because of the fact that Delta took VERY GOOD care of their employees, treated them with respect plus Salary and Hourly worked "hand in hand". (That is all that one can ask for in business relationships.)
Well that has NOT been the case in the Automotive industry....we had to FIGHT for Health and Safety in our lives....that was the reason for the need for Medical benefits...
As for retirement benefits...Do YOU have a retirement plan? Do you have a 401K?
GM quit matching our 410K YEARS ago.
Do you have Medical benefits?
Once we retire....we LOSE most of our Medical Benefits.
Have we really asked for much of EXCESS..."if so" then then just exactly do you feel that we have asked for that "Broke GM"?
I am simply asking for the reasoning behind your comments.
On May 11 03:04 PM MDR wrote:
> Unions should be illegal, they are SOLELY to blame for the fall of
> the auto industry and should be held accountable.
On May 10 09:11 AM Raodking wrote:
> The UAW did not soley make a the auto industry the mess it is today.
> There are at least 2 sides to any contract. GM, Chrysler, and Ford
> all made bad agreements dating back many years hoping they could
> make enough money in future profits to cover the legacey costs. Sort
> of like our goverment is doing now, spend and tax later. They screwed
> up.
>
> We'll not even touch on the vast amount of bad decisions the US auto
> makers have made over the past 20 or so years the list is just way
> to big to tackle.
>
> You speak of many things you obvisously know little about like the
> fact that there are numerous foreign and US vehicles made on the
> same exact assembly lines, with the same exact parts, with the same
> exact over paid workers in and outside the US. Such as the Toyota
> Matrix and the Pontiac Vibe made in California, the Chevrolet Colorado
> and Izuzu pickup truck made in Louisianna and those are only two
> of many. Both made by UAW workers. HMMM!
>
> Without the likes of the UAW (yes, I am a member) which established
> a middle class working force many years ago there would be no need
> for doctors of any kind because people would simply not be able to
> afford them and they would still be working for chickens and apples
> pies as they did many years ago.
>
> Trust me those of you who have never worked in the industry should
> not be commenting on it. Or if you do get all the facts and present
> them openly. Little do people realize not to many years back GM started
> out with 0% rebates on their fullsize trucks. By the end of the year
> they had a 6% rebate on them. What most of you nonautomotive related
> people didn't see is that the price of the truck rose by 12% that
> same year.
>
> Do really believe lower wages will make the US Auto makers more competative.
> Do you think for a second that you will see a drop in their prices.
> Do you think any of the stock or bond holders will benefit from lower
> wages. Silly little boy!
I do have a retirement plan, and I do have a 401K (and my company also does not match contributions). I have medical benefits so to speak, but I pay for them out of my paycheck.
My problem with unions starts with the egregious and downright outlandish benefits that are demanded. I certainly don't blame an individual worker for fighting for their rights within the company--it's in your best interest to have the flexibility to get fired and have the company continue to pay your wages until you find a new job (via the job bank). It's also in the worker's best interest to shift the burden of healthcare costs to their past employer. I do not however, think that any company should bear these costs. Your retirement and your healthcare costs are burdens that you have to bear as an individual. Specifically, I think the job bank, the production goals (where workers get paid overtime wages after certain production goals are met, not based on the amount of time worked) and legacy health care benefits are gross abominations of employee benefits.
Unions were children of an industrializing economy where workers were often mistreated. This is no longer the case, if you want protection from your employer over-working you, look to the government. If you can't pay your healthcare costs, look to the government. If you can't get a job, look to the government. Look around the country, unionized industries cripple their employers (as you mentioned, airlines suffered as well. Also, look at the state of California and how its unionized workers have forced the state into near bankruptcy). The fact is, working on an assembly line in a car factory is no longer economically viable not because the company is mistreating employees, but because the job market places higher value on workers with a different skill set--and this skill set is not manual labor. Simply put, the enemy is not your employer, it's the market.
" The fact is, working on an assembly line in a car factory is no longer economically viable not because the company is mistreating employees, but because the job market places higher value on workers with a different skill set--and this skill set is not manual labor. Simply put, the enemy is not your employer, it's the market. "
Yes. I do believe that IS the problem. The job market has become too saturated with "service " oriented employers providing dubious benefit for what they sell or provide. The so called" market" has become skewed towards opportunistic business practices and those employees who look the other way while their company rapes the American public of their investments and saving. ( Lehman, AIG Citi Corp, etc) You can't reward a few with high pay and short others because you believe "they have little value". As I said before, with more people earning less money the level of consumerism will diminish and even those currently with jobs the "market " rewards will dwindle.
Thank you for the civil response....
I must admit that the Job Bank was rather excessive...but that is now HISTORY....actually the people that were in the Job Bank have attritioned into the slots where people have retired...thus cutting excess workers.
BUT you must realize that if a person was actually "fired" then they receive no benefits what so ever......If you screw up...you are "out the door"...Period! No unemployment..nothing.
If you are "laid off" due to excess products because of "retooling for future products or supply and demand issues"...(that is beyond the scope of the employees control)... then and only then do they draw state unemployment (which any worker would, in any profession would)..basically a "Temporary Layoff"....not only that but SUB would come into play .
Now stop and think....the Automotive Industry can be a VERY volatile market....(as you are seeing now)..."Sometimes it is Chickens sometimes it is Feathers".
That is why both GM and the UAW felt it necessary for SUB (Supplemental Unemployment Benefits)....they didn't want their experienced workers to leave the Industry during the down times.
How would you as an employer have to shut you plant down for a 6 to 8 week shutdown (due to retooling...or because to "supply and demand issues") ONLY to find that half of your workforce went and found other jobs?....You couldn't restart your plant...(how would you retrain your workforce)....you would sink.
This is the reason for SUB
I hope that I have enlightened you on some of the reasoning that this has come to be.
I must admit that I had MOST of my 401K in GM...not only was I an employee, I am also shareholder. (I believed THAT MUCH in the company that I have worked for the past 31 years) ..I have lost a HUGE amount of my 401K...(over 6 figures) I am not whining...that was my decision.
Maybe now you can see just why I don't want to lose any more...I have put my WHOLE life into this company...not only as an employee but also as an investor.
If we lose our retirement and benefits...then my whole life has been for naught....(a VERY sad position to be in)....I know MANY others who are in the same position.So your "so called bondholders" are NOT alone.
Believe me...these are the ones that you are hearing the most from.
We are just trying to survive and take care of our families...No more that the rest of you....
So PLEASE before you condemn the Autoworker...try walking in OUR shoes.
That is why I have taken so much offense to "The Union should give up more"....hell...I don't have much more to "give up"...they have my lowered myretirement...my 401 is just about gone...my experience...my medical all in the "balance"...How much more can I give up?
You really don't want to be in our shoes at this point and time
Just a thought....
I've been driving only Hondas and Toyotas since 1987. All I have to do is change the oil. The exception was my Honda minivan that developed engine problems- it was made in America. Fortunately I was able to trade it in on a Toyota minivan made in Japan.
The American cars are such sloppy, half-assed, haphazardly designed collections of scap metal and plastic that I question the intelligence of anyone that would pay good money for one.
My grandmother GAVE me a 1995 Ford Thunderbird last September. It took me from Sept. to January to decide for sure if I wanted it for FREE. I decided to take it. Since Jan., the rear view mirror has fallen off, the automatic antenna doesn't function properly, and the transmission sounds like it is going to fall out on the highway at any given moment. So far it has not cut off on me yet (knock on wood). The control panel instruments are awkward and arranged in a haphazard, half-assed manner. Etc. But hey, it was free so I guess I can't complain too much.
Bottom line: You make crappy cars and your job security is not going to hold up but for so long.
I think Obama should invest about a million dollars to supply all the UAW workers with pacifiers.
How about you build a car that doesn't fizzle and fart and fall apart...
I find it amazing that there is talk of giving controlling shares of Chrysler, which of course has already declared that they are bankrupt, and or GM (which I sometimes refer to jokingly as "General Moochers" while my wife prefers "Government Motors") to the UAW. Wow, that makes a whole lot of sense. I wonder how long it will take them to run their companies into the ground again. I give it a couple of years, five years maximum.
Their company, GM has lost several hundreds of thousands of very high paying jobs over the last three decades and yet the few tens of thousands left of the GM workers left remaining, if well represented by the GM-UAW posters here, fail to acknowlege that it just may be possible that their pay is at a level that the auto-market just does not support. Period. They may work hard, they may not. They may "feel" that they deserve lavish pay.
Independent of all of their "feelings", there is a market in the world for autos. Customers have largely looked at the autos offered by the auto companies the world over and have increasingly over the years chosen to pass over GM's products in favor of other products that they prefer. Well, I was going to go on a little but my wife just got home so, suffice it to say that it is painful for me to witness the pig-headedness of many UAW posters here who seam to fail to understand the concept of a world market. They seem to think that they are owed a certain level of lavish compensation, even as their company is, strictly speaking, right on the edge of bankruptcy.
I will try not to post agian until 1 June, and we supposedly will see then if they file bankruptcy.
OK, so go on and tell me how every one owes you some more.
First of all I must apologize for my outburst....that is really not like me.
Which vehicles might that be?
GM has come up with some "World Class vehicles" they have been in "Car of the Year" many times in the past years.
The cars of which you speak are ...which ones????
It is true that GM... and ALL manufactures have had "flops"...to which one are you referring to?
Again, I apologize for my "outbreak"....it is so unbecoming of me.
On May 11 09:23 PM Tomcat101 wrote:
> Fcountry,
>
> How about you build a car that doesn't fizzle and fart and fall apart...
professional. rather, it should have been compared with the rest of
manufacturing. also, the pres is doing irreversible damage to the
bandholder class in gereral with his proposal of ownership. there are more bondholder in this country than his uaw votes. wake up, who of them will buy gm cars if this give away to the uaw is allowed. gm is finished. chrysler is finished. i hate to say this, living in the detroit suburbs, but not in the auto business.
politics will never replace a fair shake for the bondholders. give the uaw the money they need and give the bondholders a fair shake in gm.
I don't want anyone to lose their jobs, including UAW workers. I sincerely hope that you are able to find another job that you like soon. I've been laid off before so I know what it's like. But the UAW must admit that they are part to blame for this situation. Yes, we can blame it on mgt., but it's not all mgts. fault.
Unions were necessary in the past to ensure worker safety. Now we have OSHA for that. Now unions just squeeze companies to pay unreasonable wages and hurt the employees in the long run. We have a union where I work also and it only encourages laziness and complaining, all the while sucking $8 a month from our employees for absolutely nothing of any real value in return.
Now I drive a 1991 Toyota Corolla to work 76 miles round trip. It has 312,000 miles on it. It only requires routine maintenance and has never left me stranded. I also have a 97 Camry with about 200,000 miles on it and a newer Sienna with about 50,000 miles. Then there's the Thunderbird that I got for free that spits, sputters, and farts and threatens to drop the transmission on the road at any given moment. It has about 75,000 miles on it. Hard to say for sure though because the odometer quit working about six months ago. True story. I forgot to mention that in my other post.
I truly hope the American cars are getting better. I keep hearing that. If I hear it enough maybe I'll roll the dice and get another one.
On May 11 09:56 PM User 412090 wrote:
> tomcat101 you will have to excuse me my computer is a little slow
> but im saying i drive 140 miles a day back& forth to work at
> a gm plant from flint to lansing& i have over 225000 miles on
> my gm vehicle, and i have no problems with my union american made
> vehical so why are bitchin? do you have alot of problems with that
> japaness car? or dont you know anything about cars, the only problem
> i have with my car is the basics( oil,lube,filter,oohhh&... the
> gas!
2. I have a mtg. and three kids.
3. My grandma doesn't wipe my ass anymore. She probably did it occasionally when I was a baby. She still prepares meals for me occasionally. Mostly on holidays such as Thanksgiving or Christmas. They are usually very good meals.
4. I want America to get back on track and recover. I don't think unionizing everything is the way to do it though.
On May 11 09:35 PM User 412090 wrote:
> yeah tomcat 101 you really think its funny to be laid off from a
> job?you ever had a morgage or children to worry about or did you
> have nothing but grandma to wipe your ass&fix your meals?i know
> people have there own appinions but we are all in same boat right
> now so get your head out of your ass& lets get this country back
> to work and quit whinning who makes what.
The point is, I have not seen the advantage in durability or quality in a foreign brand. It's is largely Madison Ave. advertising hype with some "trendy" attitude and perception.
The thing I have noticed is that parts and repairs to foreign brand cars is usually higher. In other words, try collecting on you Hyundai 10 year warranty when the dealer can't get parts. What are you gonna drive when you have to wait for 3 to 6 months for a part?
I remember being stranded at a shopping center with my dad while he tinkered with a Ford van trying to get it running again so we could go home.
I really don't want to make any new memories like those. I'm sticking with Toyota, preferably made in Japan rather than Kentucky.
On May 12 01:45 PM Thadeus III wrote:
> I've owned over 40 vehicles in my driving career. GM, Chrysler, (Dodge
> Plymouth), 4 Toyotas, 4 Nissans, a Subaru, couple Pontiacs, and more
> Chevrolets than anything. My brother has driven and is driving Chevy
> minivans ( the plastic bodied Luminas) in excess of 300,000 miles
> with only oil changes, a water pump and alternator and tires. I had
> several Chevy pickups and 2 Impalas that were still going strong
> when I sold them each over 150,000 miles. I could go on.
> The point is, I have not seen the advantage in durability or quality
> in a foreign brand. It's is largely Madison Ave. advertising hype
> with some "trendy" attitude and perception.
> The thing I have noticed is that parts and repairs to foreign brand
> cars is usually higher. In other words, try collecting on you Hyundai
> 10 year warranty when the dealer can't get parts. What are you gonna
> drive when you have to wait for 3 to 6 months for a part?
My in-laws also own a Ford truck. Tailgait latch has broken, rear view mirror fell off, automatic window on passenger side doesn't work any more, etc.
Real people, not Madison Ave. advertising hype.
When we see a car broken down on the side of the road it is usually an American car.
You can hype them up all you want but you cannot polish a turd.
in a foreign brand" such as Toyota, among others , then why, in your opinion has Genreal Motors' share of the auto market gone from over 50% to barely 20%?
Do you think that American workers are actually having bad experiences with their VW's, Toyotas, Audis, Honda's and such, but that they keep buying those brands and shun GM out of some conspiricy or for some other reason? If so then what is it?
On May 12 01:45 PM Thadeus III wrote:
> I've owned over 40 vehicles in my driving career. GM, Chrysler, (Dodge
> Plymouth), 4 Toyotas, 4 Nissans, a Subaru, couple Pontiacs, and more
> Chevrolets than anything. My brother has driven and is driving Chevy
> minivans ( the plastic bodied Luminas) in excess of 300,000 miles
> with only oil changes, a water pump and alternator and tires. I had
> several Chevy pickups and 2 Impalas that were still going strong
> when I sold them each over 150,000 miles. I could go on.
> The point is, I have not seen the advantage in durability or quality
> in a foreign brand. It's is largely Madison Ave. advertising hype
> with some "trendy" attitude and perception.
> The thing I have noticed is that parts and repairs to foreign brand
> cars is usually higher. In other words, try collecting on you Hyundai
> 10 year warranty when the dealer can't get parts. What are you gonna
> drive when you have to wait for 3 to 6 months for a part?
in a foreign brand" such as Toyota, among others , then why, in your opinion has Genreal Motors' share of the auto market gone from over 50% to barely 20%?
Do you think that American workers are actually having bad experiences with their VW's, Toyotas, Audis, Honda's and such, but that they keep buying those brands and shun GM out of some conspiricy or for some other reason? If so then what is it?
On May 12 01:45 PM Thadeus III wrote:
> I've owned over 40 vehicles in my driving career. GM, Chrysler, (Dodge
> Plymouth), 4 Toyotas, 4 Nissans, a Subaru, couple Pontiacs, and more
> Chevrolets than anything. My brother has driven and is driving Chevy
> minivans ( the plastic bodied Luminas) in excess of 300,000 miles
> with only oil changes, a water pump and alternator and tires. I had
> several Chevy pickups and 2 Impalas that were still going strong
> when I sold them each over 150,000 miles. I could go on.
> The point is, I have not seen the advantage in durability or quality
> in a foreign brand. It's is largely Madison Ave. advertising hype
> with some "trendy" attitude and perception.
> The thing I have noticed is that parts and repairs to foreign brand
> cars is usually higher. In other words, try collecting on you Hyundai
> 10 year warranty when the dealer can't get parts. What are you gonna
> drive when you have to wait for 3 to 6 months for a part?
Madison Ave hype and "trendy" attitudes? Yes. . . I do believe so.
online.wsj.com/mdc/pub...
Sorry. If you like Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, etc so much, go live in the country of their respective origins. Get behind American and their original brands. . . ALL of them. Other countries are laughing at us with all this internal criticism of American Brands. It is a disgrace.
We just haven't noticed.
Somehow I do not think so:)
If they were going bankrupt for that reason then that would in fact be an honorable way to go.
No, I think the truth is closer to them making largely mediocre vehicles of less than good quality, and then over-charging for it.
In any case the market has decided.
GM appears to be going bankrupt.
On May 12 01:45 PM Thadeus III wrote:
> I've owned over 40 vehicles in my driving career. GM, Chrysler, (Dodge
> Plymouth), 4 Toyotas, 4 Nissans, a Subaru, couple Pontiacs, and more
> Chevrolets than anything. My brother has driven and is driving Chevy
> minivans ( the plastic bodied Luminas) in excess of 300,000 miles
> with only oil changes, a water pump and alternator and tires. I had
> several Chevy pickups and 2 Impalas that were still going strong
> when I sold them each over 150,000 miles. I could go on.
> The point is, I have not seen the advantage in durability or quality
> in a foreign brand. It's is largely Madison Ave. advertising hype
> with some "trendy" attitude and perception.
> The thing I have noticed is that parts and repairs to foreign brand
> cars is usually higher. In other words, try collecting on you Hyundai
> 10 year warranty when the dealer can't get parts. What are you gonna
> drive when you have to wait for 3 to 6 months for a part?
If GM is selling the amount of vehicles that you have stated, more than Toyota, then please inform me as to why investors in the world, i.e. Earth are only willing to pay approximately $1.15 (one dollar and fifteen cents) per share for GM.
If they are selling more than Toyota then I guess there is no problem and we can all expect to quit reading about hard working Americans' tax dollars being given to GM so they can pay their employees twice to three times as much as that average hard working American.
Somehow, while I would not be surprised if they sold a bunch now, I will bet that they lost $10,000,000,000 (ten billion dollars) last three months alone. By the way, that is in some measure a piece of the $13,000,000,000 we gave you/them/GM over basically the same period.
I am looking forward to June 1st when possibly we will see GM and their minions quit with all of the excuses and requests for charity and be forced to accept the consequences of the sum of their actions via a bankruptcy proceeding.
By the way, look at the stuff that most GM employees own and you will see that not their "buy american" cries appear to only apply to the cars they make.
On May 12 07:51 PM Thadeus III wrote:
> Kman. .. GM has continued to sell more vehicles even in this bad
> economy in the US than Toyota.
> online.wsj.com/mdc/pub...
> Sorry. If you like Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, etc so much, go live
> in the country of their respective origins. Get behind American and
> their original brands. . . ALL of them. Other countries are laughing
> at us with all this internal criticism of American Brands. It is
> a disgrace.
I'm kidding of course. If it makes you feel any better, I do try to buy American made products when I can- just not cars or anything complicated that requires alot of though to put it together correctly. American workers are, for the most part, lazy and more concerned about when their next break will be or what they can squeeze out of a Workers Comp. claim than they are about making a quality product.
On May 12 07:47 PM Thadeus III wrote:
> Oh and I remember my 1990 Nissan truck that left me stranded along
> the road side. It turns out in those years the throttle body was
> prone to carbon build up in the main jet. I had to get a tow and
> take the thing apart to clean out the carbon from exhaust the geniuses
> fed back into the throttle body for emmisions control ( via the PCV
> valve). And then there's the 1988 Sentra that had so many coolant
> leaks the head gasket went. Another Nissan my daughter had blew out
> the oil seals, another very common thing for Nissans. And the Subaru
> I had? Well, a rear brake job was $800. Unless you bought your own
> parts, then it was about $400 in 1992. And let's not forget the fabulouso
> early 2000's Toyota 3.0L V6 with engine failures ( Camrys and Sienna
> mini vans that we had ) because of too small oil returns in the cylinder
> heads. Toyota engineers did that. And Toyota tried to talk their
> way out and initially denied any responsibility. And then there was
> rear brake problems ( squealing and premature wear). There is more.
> I could go on.
>
> Madison Ave hype and "trendy" attitudes? Yes. . . I do believe so.
On May 12 07:51 PM Thadeus III wrote:
> Kman. .. GM has continued to sell more vehicles even in this bad
> economy in the US than Toyota.
> online.wsj.com/mdc/pub...
> Sorry. If you like Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, etc so much, go live
> in the country of their respective origins. Get behind American and
> their original brands. . . ALL of them. Other countries are laughing
> at us with all this internal criticism of American Brands. It is
> a disgrace.
I know someone who's Ford Explorer mysteriously caught on fire while parked in her garage, which then caught the house on fire. They got out ok, but the insurance still hasn't paid them a dime. That would be just my luck. No thanks.
On May 12 07:47 PM Thadeus III wrote:
> Oh and I remember my 1990 Nissan truck that left me stranded along
> the road side. It turns out in those years the throttle body was
> prone to carbon build up in the main jet. I had to get a tow and
> take the thing apart to clean out the carbon from exhaust the geniuses
> fed back into the throttle body for emmisions control ( via the PCV
> valve). And then there's the 1988 Sentra that had so many coolant
> leaks the head gasket went. Another Nissan my daughter had blew out
> the oil seals, another very common thing for Nissans. And the Subaru
> I had? Well, a rear brake job was $800. Unless you bought your own
> parts, then it was about $400 in 1992. And let's not forget the fabulouso
> early 2000's Toyota 3.0L V6 with engine failures ( Camrys and Sienna
> mini vans that we had ) because of too small oil returns in the cylinder
> heads. Toyota engineers did that. And Toyota tried to talk their
> way out and initially denied any responsibility. And then there was
> rear brake problems ( squealing and premature wear). There is more.
> I could go on.
>
> Madison Ave hype and "trendy" attitudes? Yes. . . I do believe so.
"Yes, this P.O.S. car you sold me has cut off on me out here in the middle of nowhere in a blizzard. And, my rear view mirror just friggin' fell off."
Again, I apologize to you for my "outbreak of temper"...It was TOTALLY uncalled for...
I have no fight with you....I am just trying to survive this whole mess..as my family is wondering "What's going to happen?"
I have no answers...I hope that you are never in our shoes.
Sincerely,
FC
Zacks.com
Time to Hit the Car Lots
Thursday January 8, 10:16 am ET
By Paul Raman, CFA
We think it is an excellent time to hit the car lots. Sales are slow, inventories are high, raw materials (steel, chemicals, plastic, rubber) are depressed, and interest rates are near zero. Demand is off due to the credit crunch. Dealers and manufacturers are hurting and are hungry for business.
Despite the bad publicity recently, Chevrolet and Chrysler have some of the BEST products in the market. The non-Chevy part of General Motors (NYSE: GM - News) must be restructured. Also, Honda (NYSE: HMC - News) has emerged to be a Big-4 player in the US. They work and act more domestic than even Chrysler.
We were DISAPPOINTED with Ford , TOYOTA and NISSAN and feel they have tired OLD product lineups. A strengthening Japanese Yen may force Toyota and Nissan to become the Big-5 and Big-6 in the US. * *Toyota's* QUALITY ratings were the LOWEST among all models studied, especially for the pickup/SUV part of the product line.
"Do you think that American workers are actually having bad experiences with their VW's, Toyotas, Audis, Honda's and such, but that they keep buying those brands and shun GM out of some conspiricy or for some other reason? If so then what is it?"
No Kman, there is no "conspiricy" (sp). These brands you mentioned, particularly VW and Audi are not the best examples ( check J. D Power ratings) and sell no where near the volume of vehicles of GM, Ford, or Chrysler. In addition, you will find the VW and Audi have some of the worst J.D. Power quality and durability ratings. These kinds of cars, along with Toyota and Honda, have no better continued quality rating than comparable GM cars and trucks. The foreign brands gained sales initially because of hype from car magazines and journalists from Auto Week, Car & Driver, Motor Week, and even Motor Trend. This in spite of Honda Accords fenders rusting off in the early 80's and Toyota mechanical problems. So it became "trendy" to buy a foreign car and many other preppy types gained a following. It became "anti establishment" to buy a Honda or Toyota. They we cheap, unsafe, and rusted. And yes, so did many other American brands have similar issues. The point as I keep stressing" NO real difference in real quality, mileage, or performance." All illusion, hype, and advertising. If the Big 3 did have failings it was in advertising and how they promoted their products, along with not watching what the foreign guys were successful in doing. That, coupled with lack of government tariffs and other favorable import/export trade conditions allowed the lies of Toyota and Honda to gain market share. I've owned and driven these cars. Read my earlier post. Have you owned 30 the 40 vehicles of many different brands as I have reported? I read you owned maybe Ford or know of a few people with GM cars or trucks. You guys seem to skim over what other people write and just talk off the tops of your heads or worse, out the other end. did you actually READ the link I sent from the Wall street journal?
online.wsj.com/mdc/pub...
It shows for even the first 4 months of this year GM still outselling Toyota in US sales and Ford not far behind. But the likes of you and these "Seeking Alpha" bloggers choose to ignore that and hype up the transplant and import brands which are destroying the US industrial base and bringing wages down to the much lower global standards. But maybe that's what you want. Your kids and others having to scrape by and have 20 people living in a 900 sq. ft. wreck of a house in a bad neighborhood.
It wouldn't surprise me if Obama outlaws foreign cars entirely to save the Little 3. Problem solved.
I sincerely hope you are right and the quality is indeed getting better. I really like those cool looking PT Cruisers. I'd buy one if the quality was equal to a Toyota. I just can't afford to take the thing to the shop every other month. I'd also like to see a modern version of the '57 Chevy. That would be awesome.
Hopefully you are right on the quality. If so, eventually folks will start buying US cars again.
If you're unemployed, I really do hope things work out for you and your family. Regardless of what you and I think of US cars, this recession is not your fault or mine. We can think the knuckleheads that gave mortgages to people with bad credit for this whole mess. Why would anyone give someone a $200-500K mortgage when they've already demonstrated that they can't even pay a credit card on time? Boggles my mind. Hopefully our "leaders" will learn a lesson.
Again, I hope you find a job and I hope it's better than the one you lost.
And to set matters straight, I was in the military for 4 years during Vietnam (1969 through 1973). Before that, I put myself through a technical college earning an Associate degree in industrial electronics.
After the military I worked for two computer service companies working on everything from small business systems to industrial numerical controls, automated inspection systems, industrial X-ray systems operating at 145,000 KVA, and more. It took me into companies in the medical field such as GE X-ray and CAT scan, Evinrude Motors, several small medical equipment manufacturers, and Delco Electronics where I made my General Motors connection. The pay scale was already dwindling in the field service business and I had a family and young kids. So am I too be blamed for taking a better paying job with heath insurance and a retirement package? I am not and have never been a "lazy auto worker" as most of the people I've worked with have neither been. Every line of work has it's fair share of "skaters" looking to do as little as possible. I resent those who want to label any line of workers as lazy and doing poor quality work. At General Motors quality was pushed and pushed every day. "Quality Creates Customer Enthusiasm" was pounded into us daily and we lived up to as best we could with the design, engineering and tools were were given to work with. If you screwed up on the job, you were taken off the line and made to look at what needed to be done to rectify the issue. . . repeatedly, until it was corrected. If you screwed up more than once you were given written reprimand and after 3 times you could be given 2 -3 days off with no pay. It happened and I saw it happen regularly at the plants I worked at.
There were even employees I saw thrown out for a week or month for "loitering" or not performing their job. It was occasional , but it was authorized by both the UAW and company. So they were an example to show others what would happen if you screwed up. There was never any free lunch where I worked at several GM plants.
And just so you don't go thinking I got everything on a silver platter; in order for me to hang onto my income and retirement package I had to move 3 times while working for GM. One of the moves cost me a reduction in wages for 3 years because of going from skilled trade to line work and because of the transfer agreement for plant transfers at that time. That was a 38% pay cut and I had a family and my wife had to quit her job because of the move and find another paying much less. There is much more , but the point is my situation was NOT unique.
As GM downsized and worked at plant and employee reductions while improving both quality and efficiency; this was the result for many people as downsizing and automation, as well as trying to adjust to the unfair competition of transplant and foreign auto makers.took place.
As I said before, GM, Ford, and Chrysler made their mistakes in product choice at times and marketing. So did Toyota, Honda, and the others. They all got on the big SUV and truck wagon too and look where those sales are for them as well as the Big 3. It was the greed of oil producers first ( high prices) and then the unscrupulous and undisciplined financial gurus that drew the last straw for US brand auto companies.
So if I am defensive of what people say about GM, Ford or any US brand automaker you need to walk a bit in the shoes of those like me as I have illustrated in this post. Give people some respect or you'll get the same crap that you dish out to them. We need to get behind each other in America. Not deride, mock, or bash those that work or have worked in the auto business. This is a disgrace to us as Americans and makes us a laughing stock in the countries that are pushing this global economy upon us.
On May 10 07:56 PM Alan Young wrote:
> Wow, tough crowd! I agree with the general thesis of the critiques,
> but I don't think they benefit from getting personal.
>
> Here's another angle:
>
> If we were more like other civilized countries, we would have free
> medical care for all citizens, and subsidize medical education. Then
> your hypothetical pediatrician would not have to spend half his career
> paying off his debts, and auto makers would not have to spend 1/3
> of their HR budget on medical programs. That would level the playing
> field to everyone's benefit.
Thank you for your concern...but I am not "laid off".... I am a retired GM employee.
I am just concerned about the WHOLE industry and the "working middle class" who seem to have taken the brunt of "EVERYONE ELSE'S decisions.
It seems to me that people want to blame US for EVERYTHING...Hell we are just assemblers..
As for :
American workers are, for the most part, lazy and more concerned about when their next break will be or what they can squeeze out of a Workers Comp. claim than they are about making a quality product.
I personally think that was TOTALLY uncalled for....I don't know where you are from...(doesn't really matter) BUT.. the people who build vehicles here in Arlington, Texas are very conscious about building the BEST product that we can build...that is just the way that we are in the South.
If you truly feel that way about American cars...then I suggest that you BE HAPPY with foreign vehicles....after all it is your money and you deserve to be a satisfied customer.
But you must realize that the "Foreign Auto workers" and the "American Auto workers" are no different....they come to our plants and look at our build processes and we go to their plants and observe their build processes. Are you surprised? Well it is the truth.
Believe it or not have you ever heard of NUMMI? (Probably not...you would have to work at either Toyota or GM to know that) It is a plant in Fremont, California...It is a JOINT venture between GM and Toyota....They produce BOTH Toyotas and Chevys out of the SAME plant...Shocked? Check it out. You will find that I am telling you the EXACT TRUTH.
Google it..or here is their website to make it even easier for you..
<nummi.com>;
45500 Fremont Blvd
Freemont, CA 94538
(510) 498-5500
I just thought that I would hold back that little tidbit and let everyone have their "say" before I educated the masses that we have been working "hand in hand" for YEARS.
Sincerely,
FC
I suggest that you look at the technology that goes into GM products.
The airflow meters are Hitachi..Japanese...(BEST around)
The anti braking system and fuel injectors are Bosch...German (BEST around)
As I said ALL the Car companies have been trading technology ...processes...design.... years
If I had time...I would go into the design engineer teams....it would blow your mind. Dig and see if you can see "who all designs for who."
Dig deep...it would probably change your mind about ill feelings towards American products.
But I an sure that if you really wanted to know...then you would go and look....
I can't change your mind...wouldn't even try.
This "Anti GM" is a sham....(for the people who know) what is the reasoning?...I really don't know. I am just an observer. Just trying to "weather out the storm".
Peace,
FC
Next, with socialized medicine, the medical community will will have their compensation limits set.
Butchers, bakers and candlestick makers will be next.
So...... everybody out there.... apply for a non-productive position with the federal government because those will be the only ones left providing regular pay raises, great benefits and job security (at least until the entire house of cards comes falling down)
In spite of all you say, people are buying Camrys, liking them, driving them 300,000 miles, and then buying another Camry. Surely you don't think that is all due to marketing hype?
If it makes you feel any better, my mom, aunt, uncle, and dad have all been buying GM cars my whole life. My grandmother only buys Fords. They are won't buy anything else. My aunt and mom told me over the weekend that they will by GM even if GM is in bankruptcy.
As I said earlier...PLEASE buy what you are comfortable with...you should be a satisfied buyer....after all...it is YOUR money..
I was just giving you some FACTS that most of the public doesn't know.
Digest it as you will...but everything that I have given you are FACTS.....PURE FACTS.
There are some truck buyers that "SWEAR by GMC" ...there are others that "SWEAR BY CHEVY"....shit they are the EXACT SAME except for trim and plastic...the running gears are the same...the engines are the same, frames,hydraulics, computers, engines, trannys, radios EVERY THING is the same ...(except for trim and plastic.)
Now you HAVE to admit that the new CAMARO...is "KICK ASS"...I personally LOVE IT...(but that is me)...we all have our OWN taste.
As for the '57 Chevy...probably not gonna happen... too bulky.
Peace,
FC
Your comment is laughable about how one should not comment unless they've worked on the floor of a plant. By that logic, you really shouldn't make any comment about business or finance, because you haven't worked in the industry. If the state of our auto industry were'nt so sad, most of these comments from the UAW people would be outrageously laughable.
The comment that the UAW sold out their bretheren at the 2nd tier suppliers is right on. And it is even more true for that many of my friends who own or work at small tool and die shops were even more sold out. As a former goverment staffer, I've been to litterally dozens of steel mills, auto assembly lines, tool & die & plastic injection shops, heavy fab shops, the largest locomotive assembly line in the world, and the list goes on. The union guys at the locomotive line all have TV's at their stations. The non-union guys that work in tool and die shops, who make dies, casts, etc. within tolerances of 1/10,000th of an inch with their talents, and really struggle with much lower wages and benefits relative to any UAW employee.
It really comes down to this: there are 700k plus UAW members that work or are now retired from the big three. They helped Obama get elected. Now he is taking care of them. Obama is stepping on the 200 year old proven bankruptcy laws to take care of the UAW. see online.wsj.com/search?...
Troy's article does spur several tangential debates, but the linkage to the UAW's problems and healthcare are undeniable. (The point made is a good one, but his assumption that all earnings are reinvested at 5% is a terrible one.)
Here is my prediction. The goverment will nationalize healthcare and simply take this healthcare obligation off the big 3's shoulders. That is what the power-that-be truly want. This will happen on a parallel path of the GM bankruptcy proceeding. That proceeding, will be like watching Titanic the movie: we all knew what was going to happen in the end.
The bondholders will fight for their rightful legal claim to obtain more than subordinate claimants. The problem is that the bondholders will have no plan for which to exit bankruptcy. Only Uncle Sam has the stupidity and billions of dollars to keep these moribund business models afloat with their current contractual obligations. (Only a real bankruptcy would change this.) Ultimately, the bankruptcy will follow in accordance with section 363 for asset sales of the bankruptcy code. Some courts will not approve of an outside reorganizational planned sale if it appears that the transaction is really a "sub rosa" (meaning under the rose in latin or secretive) because the terms of the sale will necessarily dictate the provisions of any future plan. However, the terms of the sale have been dictated. Thus, 200 years of bankruptcy law that have laid the framework for thousands of successful reorganizations and saved millions of jobs will be circumvented.
On May 10 09:11 AM Raodking wrote:
> The UAW did not soley make a the auto industry the mess it is today.
> There are at least 2 sides to any contract. GM, Chrysler, and Ford
> all made bad agreements dating back many years hoping they could
> make enough money in future profits to cover the legacey costs. Sort
> of like our goverment is doing now, spend and tax later. They screwed
> up.
>
> We'll not even touch on the vast amount of bad decisions the US auto
> makers have made over the past 20 or so years the list is just way
> to big to tackle.
>
> You speak of many things you obvisously know little about like the
> fact that there are numerous foreign and US vehicles made on the
> same exact assembly lines, with the same exact parts, with the same
> exact over paid workers in and outside the US. Such as the Toyota
> Matrix and the Pontiac Vibe made in California, the Chevrolet Colorado
> and Izuzu pickup truck made in Louisianna and those are only two
> of many. Both made by UAW workers. HMMM!
>
> Without the likes of the UAW (yes, I am a member) which established
> a middle class working force many years ago there would be no need
> for doctors of any kind because people would simply not be able to
> afford them and they would still be working for chickens and apples
> pies as they did many years ago.
>
> Trust me those of you who have never worked in the industry should
> not be commenting on it. Or if you do get all the facts and present
> them openly. Little do people realize not to many years back GM started
> out with 0% rebates on their fullsize trucks. By the end of the year
> they had a 6% rebate on them. What most of you nonautomotive related
> people didn't see is that the price of the truck rose by 12% that
> same year.
>
> Do really believe lower wages will make the US Auto makers more competative.
> Do you think for a second that you will see a drop in their prices.
> Do you think any of the stock or bond holders will benefit from lower
> wages. Silly little boy!
In the last 20 years, 30 years take your pick.... U.S. built cars have risen in price 100% more than the price of oil. So from your mindset, the auto companies and its auto workers must be more than twice as greedy as the "oil producers."
On May 13 12:40 PM Thadeus III wrote:
> Finding a decent job is a nice thought, but easier said then done.
> Also, for those of us who put 30 or more hard working years into
> working at an auto company; it's not very comforting to think that
> the pensions that are part of our compensation package may be ripped
> away from us by the excessive lawyers fees and liquidation of a full
> bankruptcy. To me, I accepted employment at a company with the
> full compensation that was offered at the time I started and when
> I retired. To take that away after the fact, is stealing , even if
> it is deemed legal.
> And to set matters straight, I was in the military for 4 years during
> Vietnam (1969 through 1973). Before that, I put myself through
> a technical college earning an Associate degree in industrial electronics.
>
> After the military I worked for two computer service companies working
> on everything from small business systems to industrial numerical
> controls, automated inspection systems, industrial X-ray systems
> operating at 145,000 KVA, and more. It took me into companies in
> the medical field such as GE X-ray and CAT scan, Evinrude Motors,
> several small medical equipment manufacturers, and Delco Electronics
> where I made my General Motors connection. The pay scale was already
> dwindling in the field service business and I had a family and young
> kids. So am I too be blamed for taking a better paying job with
> heath insurance and a retirement package? I am not and have never
> been a "lazy auto worker" as most of the people I've worked with
> have neither been. Every line of work has it's fair share of "skaters"
> looking to do as little as possible. I resent those who want to label
> any line of workers as lazy and doing poor quality work. At General
> Motors quality was pushed and pushed every day. "Quality Creates
> Customer Enthusiasm" was pounded into us daily and we lived up to
> as best we could with the design, engineering and tools were were
> given to work with. If you screwed up on the job, you were taken
> off the line and made to look at what needed to be done to rectify
> the issue. . . repeatedly, until it was corrected. If you screwed
> up more than once you were given written reprimand and after 3 times
> you could be given 2 -3 days off with no pay. It happened and I saw
> it happen regularly at the plants I worked at.
> There were even employees I saw thrown out for a week or month for
> "loitering" or not performing their job. It was occasional , but
> it was authorized by both the UAW and company. So they were an example
> to show others what would happen if you screwed up. There was never
> any free lunch where I worked at several GM plants.
> And just so you don't go thinking I got everything on a silver platter;
> in order for me to hang onto my income and retirement package I had
> to move 3 times while working for GM. One of the moves cost me a
> reduction in wages for 3 years because of going from skilled trade
> to line work and because of the transfer agreement for plant transfers
> at that time. That was a 38% pay cut and I had a family and my wife
> had to quit her job because of the move and find another paying much
> less. There is much more , but the point is my situation was NOT
> unique.
>
> As GM downsized and worked at plant and employee reductions while
> improving both quality and efficiency; this was the result for
> many people as downsizing and automation, as well as trying to adjust
> to the unfair competition of transplant and foreign auto makers.took
> place.
> As I said before, GM, Ford, and Chrysler made their mistakes in product
> choice at times and marketing. So did Toyota, Honda, and the others.
> They all got on the big SUV and truck wagon too and look where those
> sales are for them as well as the Big 3. It was the greed of oil
> producers first ( high prices) and then the unscrupulous and undisciplined
> financial gurus that drew the last straw for US brand auto companies.
>
>
> So if I am defensive of what people say about GM, Ford or any US
> brand automaker you need to walk a bit in the shoes of those like
> me as I have illustrated in this post. Give people some respect or
> you'll get the same crap that you dish out to them. We need to get
> behind each other in America. Not deride, mock, or bash those that
> work or have worked in the auto business. This is a disgrace to us
> as Americans and makes us a laughing stock in the countries that
> are pushing this global economy upon us.