Why Stocks Will Collapse This Fall 32 comments
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Thus far, 2009 has been a virtual repeat of 2008 for financial markets.
So far, both years have had:
- A Crisis/ Market low in March (Bear Stearns & March collapse to 666)
- A Government/ Federal Intervention (Bear Stearns & Stimulus Package)
- Gold testing/ breaching $1,000 in the first quarter (March & February)
- Stocks rallying into the summer on worsening fundamentals
- Stocks rallying close to their beginning of the year highs in May/ June
- Commodities rallying into the Summer on the China story/ inflation concerns
- Various government figures using the rally to claim that the “worst is over”
- Stocks rolling over in earnest in June as fundamentals take hold
Even the charts are similar… except for the fact that 2009 has been like 2008 on steroids.
The Fed claims that it cut interest rates and pumped trillions into the market to lower volatility and return stocks to “normal” trading action. Looking at 2009’s performance compared to 2008, I’d say their efforts have been a complete and utter failure. The stock market has become more volatile with larger swings (the chart has been rebased to 100).
As I’m sure you’ll recall, stocks completely collapsed in the fall of 2008. I think that stocks will suffer a similar fate in 2009. My reasoning is simple:
- The Fed’s moves have not solved the critical issues facing financial markets.
- The economic and financial fundamentals have worsened dramatically.
The primary issue facing the financial markets is system solvency. In extremely simple terms there is too much debt, too many crummy assets, and not enough capital. Debt permeates our entire economy from the consumer level to the federal government. Debt became so out of control that at its peak, people could buy the largest single asset of their lifetime (a house) with no money down.
Since that time, Americans have done the sensible thing: deleveraging by paying off debt ($40 billion in credit cards debt Feb-May) and raising capital (saving their money). The In contrast, the Federal Reserve (the alleged back-stop for the financial markets), has done quite the opposite: issued more debt and spent even more money. Small wonder volatility has worsened.
The other critical issue facing the financial markets is accounting. To this day, no one knows the real value of the assets sitting on the banks’ balance sheets. No one knows if the banks are even solvent (I have my doubts). No one knows what the financial markets would look like without the Fed’s props in place.
To use a metaphor, the Fed has propped up a collapsing home with a few stilts and buttresses. Has the foundation improved? NOPE. Is the structure more stable? Definitely NOT. Do we even know the extent of the rot or damage that needs to be fixed? NOPE again. Have we spent a ton of money on the issue? YEP.
Now, on to issue #2 (economic and financial fundamentals are worsening dramatically). Sentiment and trading patterns may dictate short-term moves, but ultimately the market is driven by earnings. Well, earnings have fallen off a cliff. Consumers are not spending as they used to (they probably won’t ever again).
Year over year, retail sales are the worst seen in the post–WWII period. The last few months have shown the rate of collapse is slowing… but getting horrendous at a slower pace isn’t a sign of a turnaround.
Moreover, unemployment is rising which means even less spending (who goes on shopping binges to celebrate getting fired?). And this is happening at the same time that oil and other commodities are rising (which means operating costs will go up).
In very simple terms, higher costs + lower sales = much, much lower earnings. It’s simple math, but Wall Street analysts don’t seem to get it. Neither do any of the “green shoots” crowd.
So in summation, we have a MORE volatile stock market, rallying even harder on worsening fundamentals, with no real solutions to the structural issues plaguing the financial system.
If this isn’t a recipe for a potential Crash, I don’t know what is.
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I agree with the pessimistic outlook for the economy, but I am not sure I'm quite as negative. The stimulus spending has really not gotten much underway and that will provide some support against collapse. Barring some serious unexpected economic shock, I have given the following rough probabilities for the U.S stock market (using DJIA):
20% probability: Year-end 9000 or higher, with low between now and then around 7500.
50% probability: Year-end between 7500 and 9000, with low between now and then around 6500.
20% probability: Year-end between 6500 and 7500, with low between 5500 and 6500.
10% probability: Low less than 6500.
Just some notes on a napkin for after dinner conversation.
What liquidity there is is evidently being generated by the quant funds computers trading back and forth with each other - the individual investor seems to have just disappeared. I track NYSE volume daily - over the past 6 months it has averaged about 8 billion daily by my count method, but has been dropping dramatically over the past 6 weeks to around 6 billion daily, and even 5.5 much of the past 2 weeks. TODAY, on the day before Quad witch, we just touched 4 billion as of 2:45, and this is a day when they should be winding down some of the positions, pulling volume up.
So, we have an incredibly thin market that has been run up on air and JPM/GS buy programs, and which can be just as quickly run down the same way when the mini-bubble is pricked.
In other words, I am personally being very careful here, staying with very small positions and not holding much overnight - looking for a couple of things to indicate the dye is cast.
On Jun 18 12:48 PM awake09 wrote:
> I may be going out on a limb here, but the DC scenario we're witnessing
> signals a self-destructing federal government. If you hate B Hussein
> and his House and Senate cronies, just give them another year. Conservative
> candidates will be looking much better by then, able to tell the
> populace "I told you so" and able to succeed without the kindness
> of Big Media.
>
> Everything cycles-- the celebrity president can't keep the act up
> indefinitely.
Today, its razor's edge time, again, but now, its not that my customers (the majority of which are long-time ones) are telling me they can get it 10, 15, 20% cheaper somewhere else.....they're just not buying because they are struggling for business too! Because I still call on my accounts in person on a regular basis, I know they're being honest and not just engaging in the usual BS used to get rid of "pesky" salespeople. I see the empty parking lots (both employee and customer parking) and the short-staffed production areas, because hours have been cut back.
Tough to feel "bullish" under those conditions, regardless of what "surveys" say. I run my own "survey" on a daily basis, and it ain't lookin' pretty.
Nice discussion. Also glad you got your logo fixed.
Old Trader, I hear what you are saying. I am in Texas, and we have it better than most, but it still isn't great. To add to what you are saying, my concern is for Quarterly reportings is that companies can short term support profits by cost cutting, but as time goes that become more like pushing on a string. If things are bad, it eventually shows.
Mad Hedge, thanks for the ideas. I am long too much, but cutting back because I see many of the same things. I am not too worrried by a 600 retest, but could see us back in the low 800s over the summer.
It ain't, and you will be as shocked as any of them.
On Jun 18 06:32 AM Sanjeev Sharma wrote:
> if things are so grim for people, why is the consumer confidence
> data up ?
We need more truth-tellers than propaganda spreaders.
As you can see by some of the comments you receive.
it would be interesting to see the 2008 graph with the rest of the year left in, or even perhaps including a projection for the 2009 figures, tracking the 2008 as it has done to date but appropriately amplified.
I'm guessing that might see the Stock market down 80%
On Jun 18 06:32 AM Sanjeev Sharma wrote:
> if things are so grim for people, why is the consumer confidence
> data up ?
Two days latter down 1500 markets shut down. Won't reopen for a week while they round up the rescue squad.
On Jun 18 10:54 AM Lilguy wrote:
> We haven't had (nor do I foresee) a Bear-Stearns, AIG, or Lehman meltdown
Are you foreseeing California? The financial earthquake in California will trigger the collapse of world markets to unprecedented levels -- the only question is when.
Earthquakes are caused by the buildup of pressure along fault lines, until the pressue causes the plates to jump along those lines. Similarly, California more than anywhere else perhaps in the world is where the weakening fundamentals are building up pressure. When investors wake up one morning and realize that California is defaulting and there is no bailout, they are very likely to jump to their phones and scream "Sell everything!", and if they all do it at the same time, the earth will shake then, that very day.
Unless the federal government DOES intervene, in which case the pressure will shift somewhere else, buying a little more time. This is what I believe will happen, and no later than November, when it's obvious that record amounts of Americans will not be purchasing any Christmas gifts this year, the quake arrives.
If the market will not crash by economic factors, it will crash by the coming panic of a deadly, deadly flu !
www.flutrackers.com/fo...
On Jun 29 08:20 PM marcovth wrote:
> It's staying a bit under the radar screen, but the flu pandemic is
> slowly getting worse and it follows the trend if the 1918 pandemic.
>
>
> If the market will not crash by economic factors, it will crash by
> the coming panic of a deadly, deadly flu !
>
> www.flutrackers.com/fo...