Why I'd Avoid Toyota, The #1 Automaker in the U.S. 87 comments
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Depending upon your philosophical bent, this is either good news or another sign that the Apocalypse is near.
The WSJ is reporting that Toyota is slated to take over the title as the number 1 seller of light vehicles in the U.S.
The bankruptcies of General Motors and Chrysler are changing the landscape of the auto industry. The two U.S. companies are shuttering plants, shedding dealers and reducing their product lines.
As a result, Toyota Motor will become the largest seller of light vehicles in the U.S. It has held the top spot globally since last year.
The Japanese auto maker won’t be the only beneficiary of the two companies’ woes. But in terms of status, market clout and bragging rights, Toyota will be the No. 1 winner.
Its share of the North American light-truck and car market probably will rise to around 20% from 18.4%. GM will end up in second place with 13% to 16% — with Ford hot on its tail.
Although Toyota stock doesn’t change hands directly in the U.S., the company’s American depositary shares (TM), which represent them, are listed on the New York Stock Exchange.
And, at a recent price of around $76 — about $30 below their 52-week high — they’re a good bet for long-term investors.
The Journal suggests that the stock might be a good long-term buy. They point out that analysts suggest it could hit $115 and that it hit $137 a couple of years ago. Maybe, but just a caveat. Toyota and others now have the most fearsome of competitors – government owned companies. In the long run that probably means success for the competitors as political decisions trump business common sense. In the short run it could be formidable as the government does whatever is necessary to prove it didn’t make the stupid decision that everyone acknowledges it did.
Buy the stock at your peril.
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This article has 87 comments:
You're kidding right... The beuracratic, self-serving, special interest driven, US Gov. as a "fearsome competitor?"
And Jimmy I understand your point, however, there is a huge difference between partnering for success and outright ownership.
They have huge exchange rate risk because of arrogant decisions regarding where they built factories, their profit margins are low even for the car industry, and their product line is absolutely stalled in Europe - the market where quality and character of product matter more than anywhere else. The decreases in volumes for the market are going to slam them for years to come.
On Jun 22 09:38 AM 303820 wrote:
> We lost thousands of our finest during wwII defending our country
> and after 63 years we're giving it to them on a silver plater...global
> economy? free trade? how many made in AMERICA CARS DO THE JAPANESE
> OR THE KOREANS BUY?
I think we will see more growth in those companies that can sell into the worlds up and coming middle class with low cost basic transportation at one end and also by producing motors that will be low cost for commercial/industrial applications.
That said I prefer someone like TTM over TOY for a long play.
I think we will see more growth in those companies that can sell into the worlds up and coming middle class with low cost basic transportation at one end and also by producing motors that will be low cost for commercial/industrial applications.
That said I prefer someone like TTM over TOY for a long play.
That being said, the new GM is not British Leyland. Let's hope it emerges with better long term prospects.
On Jun 22 12:40 PM AutumnRed wrote:
> Anyone remember British Leyland? Being government run is a handicap
> not an asset.
>
> I think we will see more growth in those companies that can sell
> into the worlds up and coming middle class with low cost basic transportation
> at one end and also by producing motors that will be low cost for
> commercial/industrial applications.
>
> That said I prefer someone like TTM over TOY for a long play.
www.consumeraffairs.co...
www.consumeraffairs.co...
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT CAR..THE ASIANS HAVE BEING SPRAYING THEIR BOGUS QUALITY AND GAS MLG ON US FOR YEARS AND WE IGNORE THE PROGRESS OF OUR OWN INDUSTRY...HOW FAST DID WE FORGET THE ASIAN RUST BOXES?
On Jun 22 11:29 AM Pstoneki wrote:
> The Japanese buy very few American cars. Why? THE QUALITY. Their
> expectations are much much higher than the American consumers. When
> I worked for Nissan I used to visit dealerships in Japan. I watched
> every (and I mean every) customer examine every single detail of
> the particular car they were buying, down to how parallel the defroster
> element wires in the back window were. If the car was not absolutely
> perfect in every way they wouldn't buy it. Find me an GM/Ford/Chrysler
> car that can pass that kind of test.
However, we were talking about why Japanese consumers won't buy American cars. Paint runs, unfinished plastic mould seams, poorly aligned trim, huge panel gaps, etc will not sell a car to the Japanese consumer. GM used to have dealerships in Tokyo (maybe they still do). Do you know which car they tried to sell? The Cavalier, later the Cobalt. Not GM's best day. And no competition to the Japanese.
On Jun 22 03:02 PM 303820 wrote:
> I CAN SHOW YOU SOME HONDA/TOYOTA THAT WON'T PASS MY TEST.
> www.consumeraffairs.co...
> www.consumeraffairs.co...
> THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT CAR..THE ASIANS HAVE BEING SPRAYING
> THEIR BOGUS QUALITY AND GAS MLG ON US FOR YEARS AND WE IGNORE THE
> PROGRESS OF OUR OWN INDUSTRY...HOW FAST DID WE FORGET THE ASIAN RUST
> BOXES?
As for the perfect car? my son drives a 1987 Chevy cavalier Z24 with 192,000 miles that I bought in October of 1986!
My fear for Toyota is that 1) they have less of a presence in China than they should and 2) the risk of a protracted global recession.
Cars (toyota, ford, honda, etc) are lasting longer and longer. 100k miles used to be something to avoid in a used rig, not any more.
Cars, especially Toyotas are also getting more expensive. Financing and credit scores drives more sales than anything else out there, and with consumers tapped out and banks and credit unions tightening standards anyone with a 650 or under credit score is having a hard time affording a new car.
I've been thinking about buying puts to hedge my personal income. I simply don't see 12mm cars domestically for a loooong time, and at 9mm, nobody can make money.
fact: every $1 consumers spend buying your product, Toyota take$.90 back to Japan.
Fact: Toyota averages 48% of made in America parts in their cars and trucks ...compare to over 80% in domestic cars and trucks.
On Jun 22 05:18 PM buddhabill wrote:
> I work at a Toyota dealership in the Northwest, and it is interesting
> to see the various comments above. Re: WWII, that was last century.
> The economy and auto manufacturing in particular is a global affair.
> The new Tundra pick-up made in San Antonio has less foreign-made
> parts than a GM pick-up. That's a fact. And there are 11 Toyota plants
> in North America (Most in the US, some in Canada and Mex), but I
> don't give a rats heine about all that.
>
> My fear for Toyota is that 1) they have less of a presence in China
> than they should and 2) the risk of a protracted global recession.
>
>
> Cars (toyota, ford, honda, etc) are lasting longer and longer. 100k
> miles used to be something to avoid in a used rig, not any more.
>
>
> Cars, especially Toyotas are also getting more expensive. Financing
> and credit scores drives more sales than anything else out there,
> and with consumers tapped out and banks and credit unions tightening
> standards anyone with a 650 or under credit score is having a hard
> time affording a new car.
>
> I've been thinking about buying puts to hedge my personal income.
> I simply don't see 12mm cars domestically for a loooong time, and
> at 9mm, nobody can make money.
It's the same dynamic for GM and Chrysler. With the public increasingly opposed to corporate bailouts, I wouldn't count on GM and Chrysler to be solvent in the coming years.
Companies like Toyota and Honda have become dominant simply because they manufacture a higher quality product that consumers actually want to buy. Consumers have voted with their dollars. This trend will only continue as consumers are increasingly turned off by bankrupt Government Motors' and Chrysler's poor quality and taxpayer funded bailouts.
The "Asian" car companies are manufacturing more "American" cars than the Big 3. Chrysler builds a large amount of vehicles for the US market in Mexico and GM is building more and more in China. American consumers are able to get a high quality, american made product from the Japanese, and these companies aren't fleecing Americans by stealing taxpayer dollars. Sounds like a win-win to me.
These taxpayer bailouts were more about bailing out the UAW than they were about saving American jobs, and as long as the UAW runs the show at the Big 3, they're destined for failure.
China - requires an auto manufacturer to team up with a Chinese firm before you get any real access to the market. Vehicles directly imported are hit with their version of a VAT. They also manipulate the exchange rate against the dollar.
Korea - essentially has a "Non-Korean tax". Even if you build a plant in Korea but are not a Korean based company your product is treated as if it is imported. Obama is supposedly addressing this in the current negotiations taking place on a new "free" trade agreement. Korea has essentially said that if you take away our auto tax we will ban U.S. beef. So lobbyists for the beef industry will derail any headway being made on free auto trade from the U.S. to Korea.
Mexico - the majority of their purchases are from Mexican plants owned by American, German, and Japanese auto manufacturers.
On Jun 22 05:50 PM 303820 wrote:
> Buddhabill...since according to you the auto industry is a global
> affair...can you tell me how many made in America cars and trucks
> the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Europeans and Mexicans buy?
Plus, most of the vehicles Made in America - F150s, Yukons, F500...er...Taurus, are not suitable for for Asian markets, or even Euro markets where diesels are the majority of the powertrains. You don't seriously want to open up that can of worms, do you? Honestly, if AMERICANS aren't buying American - either becaause of real or historic quality issues or fuel efficiency, then why would the rest of the world?!? Plus look at the product mix: Chrysler and Fiat are getting together because Chrysler has NOTHING in the pipeline for $4 per gallon gas. Have you ever traveled to Europe or Asia? KNow what a gallon costs there?
Have mercy, this is the mindset that bankrupted GM and Chrysler in the first place.
On Jun 22 05:50 PM 303820 wrote:
> Buddhabill...since according to you the auto industry is a global
> affair...can you tell me how many made in America cars and trucks
> the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Europeans and Mexicans buy?
You're on to something. It's also possible that government ownership could be a handicap, however. We'll have to wait and see.
second: GM does not build autos in china for the USA market.
Third: they aren't fleecing the American tax payers? where do you think sen. Shelby and his Toyota republicans got the $ 3 billion in grants that the Asians got to build their factories to undercut the union workers of America?
BE PART OF THE PROBLEM...KEEP BUYING THOSE RUST BOXES...IT WILL HELP BANKRUPT OUR LOCAL, STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS...
On Jun 22 06:12 PM Alfredo Martinez wrote:
> Long term, GM and Chrysler will one again go bankrupt as soon as
> politicians turn off the spigot of taxpayer dollars. Government ownership
> doesn't work, period. Companies like AmTrak continue to lose billions,
> their success is purely determined by how much taxpayer pork their
> high-paid team of lobbyists can obtain.
>
> It's the same dynamic for GM and Chrysler. With the public increasingly
> opposed to corporate bailouts, I wouldn't count on GM and Chrysler
> to be solvent in the coming years.
>
> Companies like Toyota and Honda have become dominant simply because
> they manufacture a higher quality product that consumers actually
> want to buy. Consumers have voted with their dollars. This trend
> will only continue as consumers are increasingly turned off by bankrupt
> Government Motors' and Chrysler's poor quality and taxpayer funded
> bailouts.
>
> The "Asian" car companies are manufacturing more "American" cars
> than the Big 3. Chrysler builds a large amount of vehicles for the
> US market in Mexico and GM is building more and more in China. American
> consumers are able to get a high quality, american made product from
> the Japanese, and these companies aren't fleecing Americans by stealing
> taxpayer dollars. Sounds like a win-win to me.
>
> These taxpayer bailouts were more about bailing out the UAW than
> they were about saving American jobs, and as long as the UAW runs
> the show at the Big 3, they're destined for failure.
Seems like Toyota began to believe its own press releases, and built a single-product plant right when gas prices spiked.
Not what you'd expect from a company that pioneered kaizen in industrial production.
With new top management, look for Toyota to fix its most recent mistakes. Lowering breakeven will be a challenge for every manufacturer, and it will be easier for GM and Chrysler since they have no debt any more. (Well, comparatively speaking, anyway.)
If car sales come back (doubtful), the companies with the best products will gain the most. The Detroit 2 (not including Chrysler, because their products are dogs) have some compelling offerings, if only people would come back to the showrooms (the ones that are left).
But explain this to me: Why has GM decided to suspend production of the Malibu hybrid? With Saturn spun off, now the company doesn't have a hybrid sedan.
Brilliant.
On Jun 22 06:31 PM buddhabill wrote:
> Plus, most of the vehicles Made in America - F150s, Yukons, F500...er...Taurus,
> are not suitable for for Asian markets, or even Euro markets where
> diesels are the majority of the powertrains. You don't seriously
> want to open up that can of worms, do you? Honestly, if AMERICANS
> aren't buying American - either becaause of real or historic quality
> issues or fuel efficiency, then why would the rest of the world?!?
If American car companies can't produce vehicles that the rest of the world will buy, why does Ford Motor Company own 9% of the European market, while Toyota owns only 5%?
media.ford.com/article...
www.reuters.com/articl...
Even Opel outperforms Toyota in Europe.
GM currently manufactures the engine for the "American" Chevrolet Equinox in China:
www.nytimes.com/2008/0...
GM plans to outsource even more production for the American market to China:
apnews.myway.com/artic...
The "Asian" brands are still rated the most reliable by Consumer Reports. GM and Chrysler finished last in reliability:
money.cnn.com/2008/10/...
The only thing that's bankrupting our government are incompetent car companies like GM and Chrysler that need corporate welfare in order to compete. The UAW is a taxpayer leach.
On Jun 22 07:21 PM 303820 wrote:
> First: the Asians import 80% of what they sell in this country from
> Japan, Korea, and Mexico.
> second: GM does not build autos in china for the USA market.
> Third: they aren't fleecing the American tax payers? where do you
> think sen. Shelby and his Toyota republicans got the $ 3 billion
> in grants that the Asians got to build their factories to undercut
> the union workers of America?
> BE PART OF THE PROBLEM...KEEP BUYING THOSE RUST BOXES...IT WILL HELP
> BANKRUPT OUR LOCAL, STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS...
>
> On Jun 22 06:12 PM Alfredo Martinez wrote:
The Japanese drive on the other side of the road like the British. They switch the drivers wheel to our side on export cars. I know of no American car built to left side drive for the japanese market. How many Toyotas would sell in America if they refused to build cars for our roads?
On Jun 22 11:29 AM Pstoneki wrote:
> The Japanese buy very few American cars. Why? THE QUALITY. Their
> expectations are much much higher than the American consumers. When
> I worked for Nissan I used to visit dealerships in Japan. I watched
> every (and I mean every) customer examine every single detail of
> the particular car they were buying, down to how parallel the defroster
> element wires in the back window were. If the car was not absolutely
> perfect in every way they wouldn't buy it. Find me an GM/Ford/Chrysler
> car that can pass that kind of test.
Fact#2 the Asian's cars assembled in America contain on average less then 50% American made parts...compare to Detroit 80+%.
fact#3 UAW wages pay more taxes then any other factory worker in the USA....LEACHES? LOOK IN THE MIRROR WHEN YOU GET UP.
FACT#4 the leaches buying foreign cars and trucks are the once bankrupting this country...by taking away jobs and our tax base.
And last...I won't buy a imported car or truck whether is GM, FORD or any one else!
On Jun 22 09:12 PM Alfredo Martinez wrote:
> You need to do more research.
>
> GM currently manufactures the engine for the "American" Chevrolet
> Equinox in China:
> www.nytimes.com/2008/0...
>
>
> GM plans to outsource even more production for the American market
> to China:
> apnews.myway.com/artic...
>
> The "Asian" brands are still rated the most reliable by Consumer
> Reports. GM and Chrysler finished last in reliability:
> money.cnn.com/2008/10/...
>
>
> The only thing that's bankrupting our government are incompetent
> car companies like GM and Chrysler that need corporate welfare in
> order to compete. The UAW is a taxpayer leach.
Bwa haha haha...
I'll continue to drive my 1997 Toyota Land Cruiser with 200,000 miles it any day versus my former vehicle - a Chevy Tahoe that was MADE IN MEXICO and fell apart at 40k miles!
Competition comes from a similar, RELIABLE, desirable product, not from government welfare intervention. And to top it off they throw in a guy at GM that says 'I know nothing about cars'.
Genius! Pairs well with our President who 'knows nothing about running a real business' and what it takes to kickstart the economy the RIGHT way.
The FACT is that GM and Chrysler made JUNK, so they went bankrupt. People wanted to buy better cars, so they went elsewhere. It's not a difficult concept.
Americans no longer wanted to buy their crap, so the United Auto Workers had to get politicians in Washington to make Americans give them money through taxes.
The fact is, these import brands are employing tens of thousands American workers with high wages and benefits, and their building a better product. What makes you made is these workers aren't paying Union dues.
Too bad your beloved GM and Chrysler will once again fail, enjoy your government cheese while it lasts.
On Jun 22 10:37 PM 303820 wrote:
> fact#1 The Asians import 80% of what they sell in this country<br/>Fact#2
> the Asian's cars assembled in America contain on average less then
> 50% American made parts...compare to Detroit 80+%.
> fact#3 UAW wages pay more taxes then any other factory worker in
> the USA....LEACHES? LOOK IN THE MIRROR WHEN YOU GET UP.
> FACT#4 the leaches buying foreign cars and trucks are the once bankrupting
> this country...by taking away jobs and our tax base.
> And last...I won't buy a imported car or truck whether is GM, FORD
> or any one else!
>
> On Jun 22 09:12 PM Alfredo Martinez wrote:
I never said that Ford, GM China, etc. aren't viable. My original comment is that globalization has come the auto industry and that 'Buy American' may mean buying a Corolla made in California over a Festiva made in Europe.
This whole nationalism thread is waaaay off topic anyway. It will be a loooong time before new US auto sales reach 12mm units again. When we can use our houses as ATMs auto sales will come back. When unemployment reached single digits again, auto sales will come back. When any idiot can finance 150% of the price of a new vehicle so they can roll a boatload of negative equity from their last ill-advised purchaase into their next ill-advised purchase the auto industry will come back.
Toyota's valuation is not supported by current sales, nor projected sales over the next year. As I stated earlier they do not have sufficient presence in China or India to offset declining North American consumption. Shorting Toyota is a good hedge against a continued US-lead global recession, and not because of 'competition' from GM.
On Jun 22 08:59 PM Mee wrote:
>
>
Hey "forecaster", if the axiom "the past indicates the likely future", I cannot help but gulp over this thought regarding your comment above:
TELL ME WHEN THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED???
Really. Give us some glimmer of hope for examples.
$55 an hour plus lifetime pension and health care to work on the line? $53 million salary? Come on, guy, open your eyes and quit swallowing that union and corporate bull. Did you really think Jimmy Hoffa was pulling for you?
The American automakers have taken the US for a ride for 50 years, and now with Washington's help it will continue.
Americans (and Canadians) suffer from long term memory lapse. What have the Japanese, Korean, Chinese and German's (for you BMW-Mercedes-VW Audi types) done for you lately ?
Does everybody feel guilty about WW2 ? I don't get it...
Fact #2
The factory workers (ANY MANUFACTURING JOB THAT HAS BEEN LOST IN THE PAST 20 YEARS) are now shopping at WallMart instead of buying your home grown goods and services because they are broke.
Fact #3
The entire economy is based on spending and credit and we are not (except at WallMart) because jobs and getting scarcer and credit tighter. Want proof ? Look at the US balance sheet. Look at what happened to the banks.
Fact #4
We need to stop blaming everything on globalization and start figuring out a way to stick together again. Instead of trying to outdo each other, how about trying to make America great again.
Why would the Japanese want to buy our cars or products in general? After all, we nuked them twice.
On Jun 23 08:19 AM shrap wrote:
> Fact #1
>
> Americans (and Canadians) suffer from long term memory lapse. What
> have the Japanese, Korean, Chinese and German's (for you BMW-Mercedes-VW
> Audi types) done for you lately ?
>
> Does everybody feel guilty about WW2 ? I don't get it...
>
> Fact #2
>
> The factory workers (ANY MANUFACTURING JOB THAT HAS BEEN LOST IN
> THE PAST 20 YEARS) are now shopping at WallMart instead of buying
> your home grown goods and services because they are broke.
>
> Fact #3
>
> The entire economy is based on spending and credit and we are not
> (except at WallMart) because jobs and getting scarcer and credit
> tighter. Want proof ? Look at the US balance sheet. Look at what
> happened to the banks.
>
> Fact #4
>
> We need to stop blaming everything on globalization and start figuring
> out a way to stick together again. Instead of trying to outdo each
> other, how about trying to make America great again.
second: Detroit car quality is as good if not better then the Asian rust boxes...read up on their bogus quality and gas mileage!
third: wages of foreign transplants in the USA are as fallow...Toyota and Honda pay 30% of their workers $10/12hr and no benefits...they are contract workers...the pay for the rest is $25hr little health care and no pension.
KIA, HYUNDAI, BMW AND VW PAY $14/16HR little health care and no pension.
Forth: government cheese? hahah I'll enjoy my union pension in sunny Florida while you and the rest of the non union slaves will work till you're 90!!!!
BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU...KEEP BUYING THOSE FOREIGN RUST BOXES!!!
On Jun 23 03:07 AM Brad Johnson wrote:
> What a union shill. And your FACTS are way off, you've even contradicted
> yourself in your own posts.
>
> The FACT is that GM and Chrysler made JUNK, so they went bankrupt.
> People wanted to buy better cars, so they went elsewhere. It's not
> a difficult concept.
>
> Americans no longer wanted to buy their crap, so the United Auto
> Workers had to get politicians in Washington to make Americans give
> them money through taxes.
>
> The fact is, these import brands are employing tens of thousands
> American workers with high wages and benefits, and their building
> a better product. What makes you made is these workers aren't paying
> Union dues.
>
> Too bad your beloved GM and Chrysler will once again fail, enjoy
> your government cheese while it lasts.
You're comparing a compact car...prius...with a mid-size car...fusion...typical anti american!!!
BTW...Mexican auto workers make under $2hr!
On Jun 23 09:29 AM jimdaddy wrote:
> Well i went shopping to buy American and checked out the Ford Fusion
> and the Fusion Hybred. Guess what? Every one and they had plenty
> were manufactured in Hermossillo (sic)Mexico. Ok instead of paying
> an American $55.00 an hour with benefits, Ford pays Mexicans around
> $5.00 an hour and medical is picked up by the Govt. The Fusion hybred
> was $31,000.00+ and the Top of the line Toyota Prius made in Japan
> and shipped thousands of miles instead of 100's of miles is several
> thousand less. The least expensive is 22k. Ford, Gm, and Chrysler
> are making hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of vehicles in Mexico
> and calling their cars American.
On Jun 22 11:38 PM sickofthehype wrote:
> Governmental 'fierce competition'?
> Bwa haha haha...
>
> I'll continue to drive my 1997 Toyota Land Cruiser with 200,000 miles
> it any day versus my former vehicle - a Chevy Tahoe that was MADE
> IN MEXICO and fell apart at 40k miles!
>
> Competition comes from a similar, RELIABLE, desirable product, not
> from government welfare intervention. And to top it off they throw
> in a guy at GM that says 'I know nothing about cars'.
> Genius! Pairs well with our President who 'knows nothing about running
> a real business' and what it takes to kickstart the economy the RIGHT
> way.
the American union auto workers and other union's wages have contributed more taxes to the local,state, and federal governments then your non union wages ever will.
Washington's help? who helped corporate America sell our jobs to the lowest bidder? at list this president is trying to save some of our jobs...perhaps that bothers you!!!
On Jun 23 07:58 AM Tom o'Bedlam wrote:
> It's the greedy corrupt American unions and the greedy hidebound
> Detroit executives that have ruined America.
>
> $55 an hour plus lifetime pension and health care to work on the
> line? $53 million salary? Come on, guy, open your eyes and quit swallowing
> that union and corporate bull. Did you really think Jimmy Hoffa was
> pulling for you?
>
> The American automakers have taken the US for a ride for 50 years,
> and now with Washington's help it will continue.
On Jun 23 09:44 AM 303820 wrote:
> Ford, GM and Chrysler import about 25% of their cars from Mexico
> and Korea...the Asians import about 80% of what they sell here.<br/>You're
> comparing a compact car...prius...with a mid-size car...fusion...typical
> anti american!!!
> BTW...Mexican auto workers make under $2hr!
Told new engine would cost 4000. Mechanic advised junking it.
Robin of Mansfield, MA February 23, 2009
Read more: www.consumeraffairs.co...
On Jun 23 09:58 AM Pstoneki wrote:
> I'll second that. My 1987 FJ60 has 250k on the original engine and
> transmission. Bought it used in 1990 to replace my 1975 FJ40. The
> Toyota has been extremely reliable, if rather slow and thristy. And
> it has led a very hard life since it has spent a lot of its life
> off road. My wife's Mexican-built 2004 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban lasted
> 2 years and 30k miles before it completely fell apart. After the
> dealership spent 6 months of the 24 months I owned it to fix everything
> (atleast what was broken at the time) we dumped it. Unfortunately,
> because something different broke each time we were not able to get
> it declared a lemon. So we sold it for a $40k loss.
On Jun 23 10:10 AM Pstoneki wrote:
> Who cares what the Mexican's make? Their cost of living is much lower
> than the US. After all, they don't have a need to buy a big fishing
> boat, snow machines, 4 wheelers, and a giant truck to pull them around
> like most of the Big 3 assembly folks I know. Apples to oranges comparison.
> Let's face it - we pay unskilled trades a lot of money when, often,
> the complexity of the work does not warrant it. I've worked on the
> line in several GM plants. Beyond the mind-numbing boredom induced
> by doing the same thing every day the job was not hard and did not
> require any advanced education. We should be paying people based
> on the unique skills they bring to the job and the value they add
> to a process.
Old man Toyoda who is 84, scolded Watanabe, the president of Toyota, for copying GM, and put his son Akio in as president instead. Will it help? Like Obama, he has a big mess on his hands, the world has changed, and it will take time.
They had a great design studio in California, but they fired their best
designer. His designs were quirky but had personality, which helps with owner bonding and brand loyalty. The newer Toyotas have all the personality of a rent-a-car.
and you do realize that only the domestic plants for Toyota, Honda and Nissan aren't unionized? every one of their Japanese plants is unionized and has been for decades.
and the business rules in Japan are quite different. I used to work at one of them. had we been in the US we would have been in bankruptcy. but it didn't and wouldn't happen in Japan (or Korea either more than likely)
and as far as cars people want to buy. its seems that would be domestics. as GM still sells the most vehicles in the US. and the top 20 vehicles sold still has a lot of domestics in it (about 10 of them to be precise).
On Jun 22 06:12 PM Alfredo Martinez wrote:
> Long term, GM and Chrysler will one again go bankrupt as soon as
> politicians turn off the spigot of taxpayer dollars. Government
> ownership doesn't work, period. Companies like AmTrak continue to
> lose billions, their success is purely determined by how much taxpayer
> pork their high-paid team of lobbyists can obtain.
>
> It's the same dynamic for GM and Chrysler. With the public increasingly
> opposed to corporate bailouts, I wouldn't count on GM and Chrysler
> to be solvent in the coming years.
>
> Companies like Toyota and Honda have become dominant simply because
> they manufacture a higher quality product that consumers actually
> want to buy. Consumers have voted with their dollars. This trend
> will only continue as consumers are increasingly turned off by bankrupt
> Government Motors' and Chrysler's poor quality and taxpayer funded
> bailouts.
>
> The "Asian" car companies are manufacturing more "American" cars
> than the Big 3. Chrysler builds a large amount of vehicles for the
> US market in Mexico and GM is building more and more in China. American
> consumers are able to get a high quality, american made product from
> the Japanese, and these companies aren't fleecing Americans by stealing
> taxpayer dollars. Sounds like a win-win to me.
>
> These taxpayer bailouts were more about bailing out the UAW than
> they were about saving American jobs, and as long as the UAW runs
> the show at the Big 3, they're destined for failure.
On Jun 23 09:33 AM 303820 wrote:
> First : my facts come from the most anti-union paper in USA the wall
> street journal.
> second: Detroit car quality is as good if not better then the Asian
> rust boxes...read up on their bogus quality and gas mileage!
> third: wages of foreign transplants in the USA are as fallow...Toyota
> and Honda pay 30% of their workers $10/12hr and no benefits...they
> are contract workers...the pay for the rest is $25hr little health
> care and no pension.
> KIA, HYUNDAI, BMW AND VW PAY $14/16HR little health care and no pension.
>
> Forth: government cheese? hahah I'll enjoy my union pension in sunny
> Florida while you and the rest of the non union slaves will work
> till you're 90!!!!
>
> BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU...KEEP BUYING THOSE FOREIGN RUST BOXES!!!
>
On Jun 23 10:35 AM 303820 wrote:
> YOU HAVE NEVER WORKED ON ANY ASSEMBLY LINE..YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THE
> INSIDE OF AN ASSEMBLY LINE...SEVERAL GM PLANTS? YOU JUST SHOW UP
> AND THEY HIRE YOU?
The minute Toyota makes a 1-ton pickup, I'm buying.
On Jun 23 09:58 AM Pstoneki wrote:
> I'll second that. My 1987 FJ60 has 250k on the original engine and
> transmission. Bought it used in 1990 to replace my 1975 FJ40. The
> Toyota has been extremely reliable, if rather slow and thristy.
> And it has led a very hard life since it has spent a lot of its life
> off road. My wife's Mexican-built 2004 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban lasted
> 2 years and 30k miles before it completely fell apart. After the
> dealership spent 6 months of the 24 months I owned it to fix everything
> (atleast what was broken at the time) we dumped it. Unfortunately,
> because something different broke each time we were not able to get
> it declared a lemon. So we sold it for a $40k loss.
After 9/11, Gm,Chrysler and Ford donated $10 Million each to our cause. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Suzuki donated a total of ZERO!
If you want to support companies that are one sided towards their own,then buy imported products. I question your loyaltyas an American.
www.nlcnet.org/article...
On Jun 23 10:44 AM Georgen wrote:
> I live in Greenville, SC near the BMW plant, and I worked for one
> of the plant's supliers before I retired, so I know your figures
> are totally off. My company also supplied several Toyota plants in
> the USA. BMW pays $26 plus a bonus. Contract workers are always less
> than 10% of production workers. To avoid layoffs in this downturn,
> ALL contract workers were let go and their jobs assumed by the regulars.
> With bonuses, Toyota in Kentucky paid hourly wages near $30 an hour.
> Medical benefits are excellent. Kia in Georgia will pay $20 an hour
> after 2 years service. One big difference is that retirement is generally
> at age 60 or 65, like most of us, not as early as 50. The UAW albatross
> will be American companies undoing. This schem is just a stopgap
> on their eventual journey to demise.
>
> On Jun 23 09:33 AM 303820 wrote:
David Levner
New York City
My bet is this entire 'Buy American' discussion has nothing to do with anything but the UAW. If the other Big 3 American Car Manufacturers (Toyota, Honda, and Nissan) were UAW shops we would hear ZERO about this topic again.
On Jun 23 11:50 AM Richard/Babyface wrote:
> If Americans like driving Japanese cars so much, they should move
> there.I agree that the automakers did not do themselves any good
> building cars with problems, but it is time for ALL Americans to
> support american made products and companies.
> After 9/11, Gm,Chrysler and Ford donated $10 Million each to our
> cause. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Suzuki donated a total
> of ZERO!
> If you want to support companies that are one sided towards their
> own,then buy imported products. I question your loyaltyas an American.
On Jun 22 11:29 AM Pstoneki wrote:
> The Japanese buy very few American cars. Why? THE QUALITY. Their
> expectations are much much higher than the American consumers. When
> I worked for Nissan I used to visit dealerships in Japan. I watched
> every (and I mean every) customer examine every single detail of
> the particular car they were buying, down to how parallel the defroster
> element wires in the back window were. If the car was not absolutely
> perfect in every way they wouldn't buy it. Find me an GM/Ford/Chrysler
> car that can pass that kind of test.
www.snopes.com/rumors/...
web.archive.org/web/20...
On Jun 23 11:50 AM Richard/Babyface wrote:
> If Americans like driving Japanese cars so much, they should move
> there.I agree that the automakers did not do themselves any good
> building cars with problems, but it is time for ALL Americans to
> support american made products and companies.
> After 9/11, Gm,Chrysler and Ford donated $10 Million each to our
> cause. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Suzuki donated a total
> of ZERO!
> If you want to support companies that are one sided towards their
> own,then buy imported products. I question your loyaltyas an American.
On Jun 23 10:10 AM Pstoneki wrote:
> Who cares what the Mexican's make? Their cost of living is much lower
> than the US. After all, they don't have a need to buy a big fishing
> boat, snow machines, 4 wheelers, and a giant truck to pull them around
> like most of the Big 3 assembly folks I know. Apples to oranges comparison.
> Let's face it - we pay unskilled trades a lot of money when, often,
> the complexity of the work does not warrant it. I've worked on the
> line in several GM plants. Beyond the mind-numbing boredom induced
> by doing the same thing every day the job was not hard and did not
> require any advanced education. We should be paying people based
> on the unique skills they bring to the job and the value they add
> to a process.
American cars just don't sell in Japan. They are too American in style, too big, the driver sits on the wrong side, the engines are too large and inefficient, the engineering / features are not in tune with the Japanese market, and the 'quality' is not there. Remember, every country has a different definition of quality so what the Japanese (or any other market) finds important may not be 'quality' in another market. For instance, a car with a pillowy ride and light steering is not considered high quality in Europe. However, in the US it is.
If GM made an effort to engineer and sell cars in Japan they could do it. Just look at what they have been able to do with Buick in China. They just have chosen not to.
Japanese cars do not seem to sell well in China. My experience working in China is that they have a very strong memory of Japanese atrocities on Chinese soil (see Nanking) and this has hurt Nissan, Toyota, and Honda. And has helped GM/Buick.
On Jun 23 02:13 PM slowdown wrote:
> Pose the question another way....how many American made Japanese
> cars do the Japanese buy? Answer - none....the Japanese government
> will not allow Toyota/Nissan to import their own vehicles manufactured
> in other countries because they practice protectionism.....and since
> you worked for them and were there...mind telling us how much an
> imported vehicle costs over a domestic one? Last I knew - the Japanese
> government taxed the living daylights out of foriegn competitor products...again
> - protectionism.
On Jun 23 12:55 PM rgbscan wrote:
> Hey, offtopic, but I might as well ask. Is there a way to block comments
> from specific users? I seriously don't need to ever hear anything
> again from "303820" :-)
On Jun 23 10:45 AM Pstoneki wrote:
> No. My father was the plant manager of a Pontiac plant in the 1970's.
> One of his friends was the plant manager of Flint Truck and Bus.
> Another was the plant manager of Lansing Car Assembly. I started
> on the line installing IPs in Sevilles and Eldorados at Hamtramck
> in 1990. Then installing interior trim at LCA. Went to college, learned
> shop floor controls, then went to work at Buick City before moving
> to Truck and Bus. Then moved on to Nissan in Tennessee.
I thought people that bought non-UAW made cars were destroying this country, at least that's been your rant the entire time.
What on Earth possessed you to buy a Toyota! I guess you don't practice what you preach.
BTW, I call bullsh!t on the whole story.
On Jun 23 10:10 AM 303820 wrote:
> Add me to the list of very disappointed first-time/last-time Toyota
> owners. We bought a 2003 Avalon in August 2006 with 20,000 miles.
> We were told by our mechanic last weekend that there was sludge in
> the engine. We were told that even though it is a 2002 engine, it
> is not covered under the class action. We were further told that
> we could try talking to a Toyota dealer but that there was nothing
> Toyota was willing to do for us.
>
> Told new engine would cost 4000. Mechanic advised junking it.
>
> Robin of Mansfield, MA February 23, 2009
>
>
>
>
> Read more: www.consumeraffairs.co...;C
>
>
Go to Florida because houses are real cheap right now. You should be able to make enough scrounging the beach dumpsters for recyclable aluminum cans and plastic bottles to make your house payment. Better yet, stay in Michigan where abandoned housing is practically free.
On Jun 23 09:33 AM 303820 wrote:
> First : my facts come from the most anti-union paper in USA the wall
> street journal.
> second: Detroit car quality is as good if not better then the Asian
> rust boxes...read up on their bogus quality and gas mileage!
> third: wages of foreign transplants in the USA are as fallow...Toyota
> and Honda pay 30% of their workers $10/12hr and no benefits...they
> are contract workers...the pay for the rest is $25hr little health
> care and no pension.
> KIA, HYUNDAI, BMW AND VW PAY $14/16HR little health care and no pension.
>
> Forth: government cheese? hahah I'll enjoy my union pension in sunny
> Florida while you and the rest of the non union slaves will work
> till you're 90!!!!
>
> BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU...KEEP BUYING THOSE FOREIGN RUST BOXES!!!
>
Proud owner of a 1992 4 cylinders small pick up Toyota..... grease the front bearings once a year, change the oil every 5,000 miles, three sets of tires and two batteries... it has NEVER let me down........Any American made car that can claim the same?
On Jun 23 05:06 PM Brad Johnson wrote:
> Wait a minute!
>
> I thought people that bought non-UAW made cars were destroying this
> country, at least that's been your rant the entire time.
>
> What on Earth possessed you to buy a Toyota! I guess you don't practice
> what you preach.
>
>
> BTW, I call bullsh!t on the whole story.
On Jun 23 06:40 PM Ponce wrote:
> "Buy it today and you will drive it tomorrow for Toyora is here to
> stay"......Ponce
>
> Proud owner of a 1992 4 cylinders small pick up Toyota..... grease
> the front bearings once a year, change the oil every 5,000 miles,
> three sets of tires and two batteries... it has NEVER let me down........Any
> American made car that can claim the same?
On Jun 23 05:58 PM jhartz wrote:
> What union pension? What makes you think the union invested your
> money any better than our 401K managers invested ours? From what
> I've been hearing, the biggest pension plans are all hoping top get
> Uncle Sugar to make good on the underfunded liabilities that now
> make up their retirement plans.
>
> Go to Florida because houses are real cheap right now. You should
> be able to make enough scrounging the beach dumpsters for recyclable
> aluminum cans and plastic bottles to make your house payment. Better
> yet, stay in Michigan where abandoned housing is practically free.
>
On Jun 22 08:57 AM pftittl wrote:
> I own a Prius. The technology is comparable to the Apple iPhone.
> If Toyota could create a pickup truck that's a hybrid, they would
> rocket in value.
Do you hear yourselves? Are you so without scruples that you'll say anything whether you believe it or not?
Grandfather was right! Don't trust any bankster ever!
It's a nice 'halo' product that did nothing to keep GM from bankruptcy.
How many EV1's could have they sold? Or hybrid Cobalts?
GM once had the clout to push product through their 7000 dealerships - with some leadership they could have been ahead of the whole EV/Hybrid thing....that is the real crime.
On Jun 23 07:50 PM caxyfan wrote:
> BTW, GM already MAKES A HYBRID PICKUP!
On Jun 22 09:16 PM KIT wrote:
>
> The Japanese drive on the other side of the road like the British.
> They switch the drivers wheel to our side on export cars. I know
> of no American car built to left side drive for the japanese market.
> How many Toyotas would sell in America if they refused to build cars
> for our roads?
On Jun 23 02:36 PM Pstoneki wrote:
> I would agree that Japan taxes imports heavily. So does the US. However,
> the Japanese sell very few of their own models sold in external markets
> in Japan. It is very expensive to buy a car in Japan, even a Japanese-built
> car, due to parking requirements / permiting, insurance, and their
> very draconian vehicle inspection rules. Size is also a big issue
> - most cars sold in Japan are much smaller than the Japanese cars
> built for non-Japan markets.
>
> American cars just don't sell in Japan. They are too American in
> style, too big, the driver sits on the wrong side, the engines are
> too large and inefficient, the engineering / features are not in
> tune with the Japanese market, and the 'quality' is not there. Remember,
> every country has a different definition of quality so what the Japanese
> (or any other market) finds important may not be 'quality' in another
> market. For instance, a car with a pillowy ride and light steering
> is not considered high quality in Europe. However, in the US it is.
>
>
> If GM made an effort to engineer and sell cars in Japan they could
> do it. Just look at what they have been able to do with Buick in
> China. They just have chosen not to.
>
> Japanese cars do not seem to sell well in China. My experience working
> in China is that they have a very strong memory of Japanese atrocities
> on Chinese soil (see Nanking) and this has hurt Nissan, Toyota, and
> Honda. And has helped GM/Buick.
On Jun 23 02:36 PM Pstoneki wrote:
> I would agree that Japan taxes imports heavily. So does the US. However,
> the Japanese sell very few of their own models sold in external markets
> in Japan. It is very expensive to buy a car in Japan, even a Japanese-built
> car, due to parking requirements / permiting, insurance, and their
> very draconian vehicle inspection rules. Size is also a big issue
> - most cars sold in Japan are much smaller than the Japanese cars
> built for non-Japan markets.
>
> American cars just don't sell in Japan. They are too American in
> style, too big, the driver sits on the wrong side, the engines are
> too large and inefficient, the engineering / features are not in
> tune with the Japanese market, and the 'quality' is not there. Remember,
> every country has a different definition of quality so what the Japanese
> (or any other market) finds important may not be 'quality' in another
> market. For instance, a car with a pillowy ride and light steering
> is not considered high quality in Europe. However, in the US it is.
>
>
> If GM made an effort to engineer and sell cars in Japan they could
> do it. Just look at what they have been able to do with Buick in
> China. They just have chosen not to.
>
> Japanese cars do not seem to sell well in China. My experience working
> in China is that they have a very strong memory of Japanese atrocities
> on Chinese soil (see Nanking) and this has hurt Nissan, Toyota, and
> Honda. And has helped GM/Buick.
On Jun 23 11:44 PM buddhabill wrote:
> Toyota expects to sell 160k Prius' this year. What's the projection
> for the $40,000 hybrid pick-up? 20k?
>
> It's a nice 'halo' product that did nothing to keep GM from bankruptcy.
>
>
> How many EV1's could have they sold? Or hybrid Cobalts?
>
> GM once had the clout to push product through their 7000 dealerships
> - with some leadership they could have been ahead of the whole EV/Hybrid
> thing....that is the real crime.
On Jun 23 07:50 PM caxyfan wrote:
> BTW, GM already MAKES A HYBRID PICKUP!
On Jun 24 12:12 AM slowdown wrote:
> We build a right hand drive Cadillac's and export them to Japan all
> day long. As you say...the problem is that by the time the taxes
> are levied against them the cars are too expensive for anyone but
> the very rich. Additionally...there isn't a business case to design
> and engineer a right hand drive version of the Chevy Aveo because
> those same taxes make them more expensive then the Japanese domestic
> comp vehicle. So...between the currency manipulation and protectionist
> policies practiced...we don't have free trade with the Japanese.
>
On Jun 22 09:38 AM 303820 wrote:
> We lost thousands of our finest during wwII defending our country
> and after 63 years we're giving it to them on a silver plater...global
> economy? free trade? how many made in AMERICA CARS DO THE JAPANESE
> OR THE KOREANS BUY?
On Jun 23 12:09 PM 303820 wrote:
> LET ME ADD TO MY FACTS...THE NEW TOYOTA PLANT IN SOUTH/NORTH? CAROLINA
> HAS ALL READY INFORMED ITS NEW HIRES THAT THEY WON'T PAY THE NORMAL
> $25HR...IN ORDER TO COMPETE WITH UAW'S NEW WAGES OF $14HR!!!
> www.nlcnet.org/article...
>
>
www.autobloggreen.com/.../
>So let me see if I have this right...Toyota loses money on every >Prius they sell (yes they do) and you think a hybrid Cobalt (that GM >would sell at a loss) would have kept them out of bankruptcy? >Why???
On Jun 22 05:13 PM 303820 wrote:
> Paint runs, unfinished plastic mould seams, poorly aligned trim,
> huge panel gaps....pistoneki you're describing Asian autos...
> As for the perfect car? my son drives a 1987 Chevy cavalier Z24 with
> 192,000 miles that I bought in October of 1986!
Toyota has been trying to enter the full size truck market for YEARS but until the 1st generation Tundra hit the market, they were clueless about what they were trying to build. People here (rural, many farmers) still buy domestic 1/2 ton trucks because they are dead-nuts reliable on a daily basis and they are much less sensitive to the realities of being able to adhere to strict maintenance requirements than Toyotas are. All are good products, but if i need to slog down what used to be a dirt road to work on broken levee and I need to pick a truck that will get me there and back, it will not be a Toyota--yet. They just haven't proven to be able to cut it in this environment.
On Jun 23 10:47 AM Tom o'Bedlam wrote:
> We have 2 Toyotas for personal use and 2 Chevy trucks for work. There's
> never a drip of anything under a Toyota, but there are at least 3
> different colored puddles under each Chevy.
>
> The minute Toyota makes a 1-ton pickup, I'm buying.
On Jun 24 08:58 PM NeverShort wrote:
> Hmm... If you got driven like a work truck, I bet you'd be standing
> in puddles of your own filth as well occasionally.
>
> Toyota has been trying to enter the full size truck market for YEARS
> but until the 1st generation Tundra hit the market, they were clueless
> about what they were trying to build. People here (rural, many farmers)
> still buy domestic 1/2 ton trucks because they are dead-nuts reliable
> on a daily basis and they are much less sensitive to the realities
> of being able to adhere to strict maintenance requirements than Toyotas
> are. All are good products, but if i need to slog down what used
> to be a dirt road to work on broken levee and I need to pick a truck
> that will get me there and back, it will not be a Toyota--yet. They
> just haven't proven to be able to cut it in this environment. <br/>
>
>
On Jun 24 11:25 AM naidle wrote:
> So with your unwavering patriotism I can only assume you are angered
> by how cheap the goods are in your neighborhood? Or am I to assume
> that you only buy local or everything from clothes to toilet seats?
>
>
>
On Jun 24 12:07 PM Georgen wrote:
> No new plants are opening in the Carolinas