Lithium-Ion Batteries for Hybrid Vehicles?

The recent Hitachi (HIT) announcement that beginning next year and by 2015 it will increase its Li-ion battery production by 70 fold for hybrids is quite significant for the Li-ion battery market. Until now, most analysts thought that there was no real potential for use of Li-ion batteries in Hybrid Electric Vehicles (HEVs). They erroneously believed that Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries were the best choice for today´s HEVs, whereas Li-ion batteries were reserved for tomorrow´s Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEV), Range Extended Electric Vehicles (REEVs) and Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs).

This argument, of course, never made sense. It rested on the unreasonable two-fold assumption that Li-ion batteries are not ready for prime-time and that plug-ins (and, for that matter, REEVs and BEVs) are a scam. For one thing, Hitachi´s notice tears apart the first half of the above contention. For another, Toyota's (TM) latest decision to begin mass-producing PHEVs by 2012 and Nissan´s (NSANY) conviction that ”now´s time to go electric” completely demolish the second half of it. Indeed one should not be surprised since PHEVs can be really thought of as an extension of HEVs.

So if Li-ion batteries are to be used quite soon in plug-ins and both range-extended and battery EVs, then why not utilize them now for conventional hybrids as well? The new General Motors (GMGMQ.PK) appears to have understood this. It just asked Hitachi to produce Li-ion batteries for its 100,000 hybrids that it plans to sell from next year.

Taken together, this only means that both NiMH and Lead Acid (LA) battery makers have many reasons to worry nowadays. And some of them, perhaps aided by their government, appear to have started to take some actions. In China, for example, they may be behind their government´s decision to impose restrictions to lithium-ion battery vehicles. At first sight, these constraints may seem somewhat astonishing, considering that China holds one of the most advanced lithium-ion battery car makers of the world, namely Build Your Dreams (BYD) (BYDDF.PK). However, they may be indeed part of a rather rational approach to help a number of other car producers that for the last five years or so have been heavily investing in NiMH and LA battery technologies for their different cheap plug-ins and electric vehicles, already running on Chinese roads and/or getting ready for export to other countries.

While I doubt anything like it could happen in Japan or in the U.S., one should be aware that all these recent events will begin to change dramatically the battery car market as a whole. In this connection, Hitachi´s approach is likely to be followed by other battery makers in Japan and elsewhere.

But this may be a short-lived approach. We will not have to wait too long until the major car makers of the world realize that mass-producing REEVs and BEVs (rather than HEVs and PHEVs) is the correct way forward. The new GM and Nissan seem to be quite clear about it, while Toyota also appears to be moving (albeit cautiously) in the right direction.

l have previously explained why I thought it was in Toyota´s (and Honda's (HMC)) interest to behave this way. But, given GM's recent re-launch and Nissan's renewed financial situation after having been granted a $1,6 billion loan to develop advanced Li-ion batteries for its new pure electric car, to retain its largest share in the automobile market of the world, Toyota will probably need to modify significantly its current conservative business strategy.

Disclosure: Author is a lithium economics analyst based in La Paz, Bolivia. In January 2009 he participated as an invited speaker at the Lithium Supply & Markets Conference held in Santiago, Chile. He holds no positions in any stocks.

Comments

[AirBoss]

And what of A123's phosphorus technology higher power density batteries?

2009 Jul 12 08:49 AM

[Gosh-137]

I would like to add a correction. The "new General Motors" does not yet sell stock to the public. The symbol given (GMGMQ) is for the old General Motors Corp., now known as Motors Liquidation Company. Trading in that stock has been halted (and will soon be canceled) because so many people think it is the stock of the new General Motors Company.

2009 Jul 12 09:12 AM

[Tdot]

There have been many technical challenges to deploying Lithium Ion batteries in automobiles that the author seems unaware of.

Shelf life is one of the major issues, due to the inherent increasing internal resistance within the batteries with age. As an example, Li-ion batteries in laptop notebook computers and cell phones lose about 20% of their charge capacity each year, and typically need to be replaced within 2-5 years. Customers typically get a new cell phone or battery, or a fresh notebook battery, every couple of years when the battery becomes unable to hold a charge for sufficient time. This would never work for cars. Auto makers cannot hope to count on high customer satisfaction, or ave a profitable business plan, if the car has noticeably decreasing range as the months of ownership go by, especially if the battery must be replaced every 2-5 years. Yes - it is easy to make a new Lithium-Ion powered electric or hybrid electric car for demonstration and car show purposes. It is well nigh impossible to have it maintain a useful range for a full life of 5 to 10 years - or at least for the purchase payment and warranty period. Replacing a $5000+ battery every 2-5 of years is just not an option for automotive retail customer, nor a manufacturer. That has become a major issue to solve. The NiMH batteries used in Hybrids (Prius etc.) to date have been veryy good for the long term - very rarely have they needed to be repaired or replaced other than perhaps after accidents.

Another issue has been high heat in Li-Ion batteries. You may recall the issue of certain notebook computers melting down or catching fire, due to the Lithium battery overheating while charging up or during use. This is also related to the inherently high internal resistance, and obviously could never be tolerated in automobiles. High heat also dramatically reduces the useful life of a Li-ion battery, and in automobiles, elaborate (and expensive) battery cooling systems must be added. Essentially, to try to maintain the range capability, the battery must have its own air conditioner and heater; or it must draw on the warmth or coolness from the passenger compartment, to keep it in the "comfortable" range, as the weather varies from the coldest winters to the hottest summers. If the driver shuts off the AC cooling system in the summer to try to increase range "for today", the battery suffers and the long term range capability actually drops.

To get Li-Ion batteries "ready for prime time" in Hybrid-Electric (including Plug-Ins) and full Battery Electric automotive applications, massive (and expensive) efforts are underway to try to improve the cell chemistry, battery-cell configuration, charging systems, cooling systems, etc., in an effort to maximize daily range, and the useful life of the vehicle over time without having to replace the batteries. The battery and automotive companies have business plans in place to try to finish up those efforts in the next year or two, but there is still a lot of work to be done. No company wants to risk ending up with an inferior, uncompetitive product after spending billions and betting the farm to try to rush something to market. That is the road to bankruptcy.

Hybrids, Plug-in Hybrids, and Battery Electric vehicles using the next generation Li-ion batteries are coming, but it will be another year or two before the technology and production facilities are truly ready for mass production. The batteries and their support systems (charging, cooling, etc.) have to be developed concurrently with the application (vehicles). It is definitely a race, and the first to the finish line will have some "laurels" because of it. But battery and automotive companies that try to take short cuts just to be able to say they were "the first" may end up with an inferior product that could be obsolete (or require major system overhaul on warranty) after only a year or two, and end up losing their reputation, if not the farm.

2009 Jul 12 09:30 AM

[jse17]

TY for a wonderfully informative review of Lithium Ion battery technology. Various car companies approach to Li-Ion production deserves review in context.

GM is full throttle ahead in placing its Volt into the marketplace. Honda at the present time appears to have little or no interest ATPIT. At first glance, the HMC avoidance approach creates concern regarding the company’s future in neglecting a wunderkind quantum leap forward. HMC’s corporate hierarchy, however, traditionally consists of highly, skilled engineers with a strong tradition of amazingly buyer friendly, quality products.

Alas, GM favors bean counters as officers whose focus is anything other than consumer satisfaction (feel free to disagree with this point at your own peril) e.g., Rick Wagoner (the Carly Fiorina of auto executives). Additionally, Toyota under the leadership (or lack thereof) of CEO Watanabe, a non-engineer marketer, who Americanized the company into bottom line profits with exceedingly adverse quality results is firmly on the Li-Ion production schedule. Watanabe is now gone with a Toyoda family member in place but the Li-Ion Prius plans predated this strategic restructuring.

Yes, it does appear reasonable to follow the author’s lead supported by the HMC approach and pass on Li-Ion supported vehicles until/if the inherent problems are corrected/eliminated. As the noted British poets, The Who, crooned, “Won’t Get Fooled AGAIN!”



On Jul 12 09:30 AM Tdot wrote:

> There have been many technical challenges to deploying Lithium Ion
> batteries in automobiles that the author seems unaware of.
>
> Shelf life is one of the major issues, due to the inherent increasing
> internal resistance within the batteries with age. As an example,
> Li-ion batteries in laptop notebook computers and cell phones lose
> about 20% of their charge capacity each year, and typically need
> to be replaced within 2-5 years. Customers typically get a new cell
> phone or battery, or a fresh notebook battery, every couple of years
> when the battery becomes unable to hold a charge for sufficient time.
> This would never work for cars. Auto makers cannot hope to count
> on high customer satisfaction, or ave a profitable business plan,
> if the car has noticeably decreasing range as the months of ownership
> go by, especially if the battery must be replaced every 2-5 years.
> Yes - it is easy to make a new Lithium-Ion powered electric or hybrid
> electric car for demonstration and car show purposes. It is well
> nigh impossible to have it maintain a useful range for a full life
> of 5 to 10 years - or at least for the purchase payment and warranty
> period. Replacing a $5000+ battery every 2-5 of years is just not
> an option for automotive retail customer, nor a manufacturer. That
> has become a major issue to solve. The NiMH batteries used in Hybrids
> (Prius etc.) to date have been veryy good for the long term - very
> rarely have they needed to be repaired or replaced other than perhaps
> after accidents.
>
> Another issue has been high heat in Li-Ion batteries. You may recall
> the issue of certain notebook computers melting down or catching
> fire, due to the Lithium battery overheating while charging up or
> during use. This is also related to the inherently high internal
> resistance, and obviously could never be tolerated in automobiles.
> High heat also dramatically reduces the useful life of a Li-ion battery,
> and in automobiles, elaborate (and expensive) battery cooling systems
> must be added. Essentially, to try to maintain the range capability,
> the battery must have its own air conditioner and heater; or it must
> draw on the warmth or coolness from the passenger compartment, to
> keep it in the "comfortable" range, as the weather varies from the
> coldest winters to the hottest summers. If the driver shuts off the
> AC cooling system in the summer to try to increase range "for today",
> the battery suffers and the long term range capability actually drops.
>
>
> To get Li-Ion batteries "ready for prime time" in Hybrid-Electric
> (including Plug-Ins) and full Battery Electric automotive applications,
> massive (and expensive) efforts are underway to try to improve the
> cell chemistry, battery-cell configuration, charging systems, cooling
> systems, etc., in an effort to maximize daily range, and the useful
> life of the vehicle over time without having to replace the batteries.
> The battery and automotive companies have business plans in place
> to try to finish up those efforts in the next year or two, but there
> is still a lot of work to be done. No company wants to risk ending
> up with an inferior, uncompetitive product after spending billions
> and betting the farm to try to rush something to market. That is
> the road to bankruptcy.
>
> Hybrids, Plug-in Hybrids, and Battery Electric vehicles using the
> next generation Li-ion batteries are coming, but it will be another
> year or two before the technology and production facilities are truly
> ready for mass production. The batteries and their support systems
> (charging, cooling, etc.) have to be developed concurrently with
> the application (vehicles). It is definitely a race, and the first
> to the finish line will have some "laurels" because of it. But battery
> and automotive companies that try to take short cuts just to be able
> to say they were "the first" may end up with an inferior product
> that could be obsolete (or require major system overhaul on warranty)
> after only a year or two, and end up losing their reputation, if
> not the farm.

2009 Jul 12 10:55 AM

[jerrydd]

Comment on Tdot who is a little behind the times in Lithium development.

There are Li batteries that don't have the problems above like A-123 and Kokam especially LiFePo4 among others. The early, cheap Lithium batteries did have problems but they have been solved. It really wasn't the battery so much as not good enough battery management systems that made them go bad so fast.

While Li are likely to need replacing it will be more like 7-10 yrs and replacement cost much lower than $5k.

As for power several EV drag racers are in the 7-8 sec , up to 168mph 1/4 mile on A123's with a under 200lb pack putting out 400hp. Soon those records will be broken again. So Hybrid power is not a problem.

NiMH can't be built in EV, PHEV sizes as Chevron, the patent holder won't let them, only 10amphr or under cells vs the 50-200amp needed. But they require expensive materials and will probably go up in price vs Li which can now be bought for under sealed lead batteries, $.30wthr, and still dropping in costs.

Other than BYD and maybe A123 I don't see any good investments in Li as they good companies like Hitachi, Panasonic, etc are very large and the batteries a small part. Plus it will be yrs before enough EV, PHEV are made to support many manufacturers. There was many good batteries ready 10 yrs ago when Cal was forcing auto companies to build EV's before CARB was bought off and canceled the EV requirement and GM crushed the EV-1 as others except Toyota's RAV4EV which now sells at $75k, double it's new price.

But PHEV's and EV's will be here as next yr gas will be back to $4/gal will focus the mind. I got tired of waiting and built my own as they are dead simple to do. Yahoo EV clubs and EV racing for info and one near you. My EV's get 250 and 600mpg fuel cost equivalent for my 2 seat sportwagon and 3 wheel MC EV's. I don't miss those gas station stops at all.

2009 Jul 12 11:05 AM

[Longinvestor]

Get ready for the 6 p.m. brownout as everybody gets home and plugs in their PHEV.

2009 Jul 12 12:00 PM

[Juan Carlos Zuleta]

AirBoss, A123 has been developing an outstanding lithium-ion battery technology based on Ferrum Phosphate and is purported to power new Fiat-Crysler´s hybrids, plug-ins and battery electric cars in the following years. Gosh-137, Thanks for the correction. Since GM´s way out of a bankruptcy process was probably the quickest one in the history of the US, people are getting confused as to which GM we are now talking about. But in general prospects seem to be positive for the new GM and this will be good for the US and for the world. Tdot, I never thought the electric car revolution we are now beginning to see would be an easy and expedite way to the future. It will be one of the most difficult and resisted ones, but at the same time it will likely be one of the fastest ones. Why? Simply because now the world has reached a “critical mass” capable of dealing with almost any technological challenge we can imagine in a couple of years. So while I definitely agree with the conclusion of your comment I have the following reaction to your assertions in the first paragraph of it. To begin with, most Li-ion batteries used for laptops are based on Cobalt which is not only a very reactive and dangerous element but also a very costly one. So the new Li-ion batteries for car electrification are now based on other elements such as Manganese and Ferrum Phosphate. With these new chemical compositions Li-ion are becoming not only safer but also cheaper. jse-17, After the recent evaluation by Consumer Reports of Honda`s Insight, one begins to think that this company needs some restructuring. But be aware that even Honda is working with Yuasa right now to equip its future hybrids with Li-ion batteries.

2009 Jul 12 12:17 PM

[Mad Hedge Fund Trader]

BYD seems to be doinf well with ferrous oxide. I’m referring to the Chinese electric car company “Build Your Dreams” (BYD) (see www.byd.com/company.php). CEO Wang Chuan-Fu, who Charlie Munger describes as a combination ofGeneral Electric’s (GE) legendary manager, Jack Welch, and inventorThomas Edison, scraped up $300,000 from relatives to start a knock off cell phone battery company in Shenzen in 1995. He grew the company into a massive, vertically integrated conglomerate, employing 130,000workaholics at 11 factories, including those in Hungary, Romania, andIndia (interesting choices). BYD bought a defunct car company in 2003 and re-engineered it to launch the $22,000 F3DM sedan last year, an old technology ferrous oxide based plug-in hybrid that gets 62 miles on a charge. General Motors (GMX) Volt and Toyota’s (TM) plug in Prius,which won’t come out until next year, will only get 40 miles per chargeand cost more. All-electric models are coming out this year. Warren Buffet was so impressed, he made a rare foreign investment last year,asking for a 25% stake and settling for 10% for $230 million. Wang, who has already earned himself a place on the Forbes 400 list, intends to build BYD into the world’s largest automaker, and quickly. Why do Ifeel like this war is over before the first shots were even fired?

2009 Jul 12 12:21 PM

[I need more cowbell]

One thing to keep an eye on, but is difficult to do because of companies involved being very tight-lipped, is ultra-capacitors. If they are ever successfully developed/invented, they will completely blow batteries, lithium or otherwise, away.

2009 Jul 12 01:24 PM

[I need more cowbell]

Duh, was that a brain-dead comment. Ultra-caps exist already of course, not just economically fesible for cars, homes, etc yet.
If any of the storage issues ideas come to fruition, and converage with solar collection efficiencies, that will be a game-changer.
It's all about the economics of the solutions now, to compete with the high energy density of carbon-based products.


On Jul 12 01:24 PM I need more cowbell wrote:

> One thing to keep an eye on, but is difficult to do because of companies
> involved being very tight-lipped, is ultra-capacitors. If they are
> ever successfully developed/invented, they will completely blow batteries,
> lithium or otherwise, away.

2009 Jul 12 01:40 PM

[Juan Carlos Zuleta]

I need more, you´re right. That´s precisely why I have long argued that lithium advocates (both lithium producers and lithium consumers)should move fast enough to guarantee the inauguration of the lithium era in two or three years at the latest, before it´s too late.

2009 Jul 12 01:49 PM

[Tdot]

On Jul 12 12:00 PM Longinvestor wrote:
Get ready for the 6 p.m. brownout as everybody gets home and plugs in their PHEV.

.........................

Yes - and one of the "big jokes" that accompanies the development and sale of Plug-in BEV and P-HEV vehicles is the assumption that the batteries of these automobiles can serve as a "backup power source" for the national grid, much like so many uninterrupted power supplies used to back up your computer power.

So - daily commuters come home from work in the evening, plug in their car to recharge, but then a local brownout reverses the current and sucks up all the remaining "juice" in the already nearly-depleted battery. Cancel tonight's dinner or entertainment plans dear - the car is dead again. Imagine the outrage the next morning when the battery is still dead as the power company continued to draw power through the night. Right now the best recharging cycle rates for a full battery electric car with a 100 mile range capability is well into the 10-hours and more, at typical household power limitations. There is no provision for feeding whatever is available in the car's battery back to the national grid, and still have a viable commuter car.

.................

On the Lithium Ion technology discussion notes - I thought I made it very clear that it was the "old school" Li-Ion batteries in common use today that are totally impractical for long automotive use. Absolutely the "next generation" Li-Ion batteries that are coming will have improvements in charging and range-capacity. It is a problem of chemistry - and there are several formulas and strategies that are being worked out to find the optimum.

Any Li-Ion battery will do, if you only have to run the car around for a few demonstration tests or races. The challenge is getting one to last for 5 or 10 years in a car, and keeping the vehicle range in line with the customer's expectations. Otherwise it will be a customer satisfaction disaster. Even with the new Lithium-XXX formulations, there are still major issues to be solved, such as proper charging protocols, waste heat management, and battery-cell cooling, to preserve the battery's life span. It will be a year or two before these issues are fully addressed.

Automakers like Honda, Toyota, Ford, and GM are not deliberately holding up delivering Li-XXX battery electric and hybrid cars to the market, other than for technical reasons. They will not start selling lines of BEV and P-HEV cars with Li-ion batteries, until the batteries and their support equipment are 100% ready for "prime time". The vehicles must be capable of meeting customer expectations for at least 5 years, or the duration of the lease or purchace financing, and maybe up to 10 years for resale potential, with no significant warranty or other customer satisfaction issues.

Sure - it is relatively easy to put together a one-off electric or plug-in hybrid car, for your own driving purposes and tastes. But building them by the thousands, tens, or hundreds of thousands (and doing it profitably), while satisfying all the buyers' expectations, and keeping the vehicle trouble-free for several years of ownership is a huge challenge.

Either way - they will start showing up in relatively vast numbers, in a year or two.

2009 Jul 12 02:19 PM

[JRB1165]

(Brownout Issues) Come on folks, do the math. Even at 25% of all vehicles on the road being plug-ins, peak power only increases 2%, while peak usage has been growing 0.8% per year. Don't focus on the kWhr but the kW that a EV might draw. A 110v EV will be able the same as your hairdryer. (Math above is for 220v 30a system.)

Think of it another way, when you plug in at 6:00 PM all you do is extend the evening usage towards the morning rates.

Please be more worried about the costs of all those new transformers outside your home ($600 per EV) vs new powerplants.

John R. Bryan, PMP
Smart Grid Program Manager
Phone: [phone]
Email: [e-mail]
www.johnrbryan.com/Joh...


On Jul 12 12:00 PM Longinvestor wrote:

> Get ready for the 6 p.m. brownout as everybody gets home and plugs
> in their PHEV.

2009 Jul 12 02:37 PM

[fireofenergy]

I would think the NiMH is a better choice (if made in a large format) because it is much more rugged and lasts longer. It's only about half the energy density as the lithium, but so what. the ingredients for NiMH could never be in short supply... Or could they, I'm not sure?

2009 Jul 12 02:50 PM

[Tdot]

On Jul 12 02:37 PM JRB1165 wrote:

> (Brownout Issues) Come on folks, do the math. Even at 25% of all
> vehicles on the road being plug-ins, peak power only increases 2%,
> while peak usage has been growing 0.8% per year. Don't focus on the
> kWhr but the kW that a EV might draw. A 110v EV will be able the
> same as your hairdryer. (Math above is for 220v 30a system.)

.........................

To be fair, the national grid is already strained to the limit on some days, particularly during summer afternoons and evenings, as home air conditioners are operating at "full blast", beating down the heat from the stove, home theater, computer, etc., never mind the heat from the sun and humidity. Add a few more kW to charge your car, along with thousands of your "neighbors", and an urban region like Detroit or Chicago could really "go brown" fast during a peak. It already happens now - brownouts and rolling blackouts - before plug-in electric cars. It can only get worse after, unless more Gigawatt-class power plants are built and networked-in at the same time.

2009 Jul 12 03:07 PM

[fireofenergy]

Isn't Obama spending for more powerlines...?

2009 Jul 12 03:18 PM

[Tdot]

On Jul 12 02:50 PM fireofenergy wrote:

> I would think the NiMH is a better choice (if made in a large format)
> because it is much more rugged and lasts longer. It's only about
> half the energy density as the lithium, but so what. the ingredients
> for NiMH could never be in short supply... Or could they, I'm not
> sure?


This is primarily why the NiMH has been the battery of choice for HEVs for about the last 10 years, with millions sold, and with relatively few problems. To maintain a battery life span of 5 to 10 years, the battery must remain in the 40-60% charged range. Overcharging or depleting the battery far from the "sweet spot" destroys the battery's useful life.

But that charging strategy - maintaining around 50% at all times, is simply not practical for BEVs and P-HEVs. They are intentionally charged up to nearly 100% overnight, and are then "run down" during the drive to some minimum, at which time the BEVs "limp home" (if they can) and PHEVs kick on the gas engine to recharge and continue driving. That is where the Lithiums work better - sort of like the old "deep cycle" lead acid batteries used in golf carts, forklifts, UPS units, etc.

If Lithium batteries were "easy" to manage and maintain in an automotive application - they would have already been the dominant battery long ago. But the problems are being solved, and they are coming. Just need some time to validate the solutions.

2009 Jul 12 03:25 PM

[fireofenergy]

I bought two small sla (5 Ah for solar lights). I let one drain down to 6 volts and it never worked again despite the fact it was brand new. The other one works great (being that I keep an eye on it).

As for the NiMH, I use 3 sets of 3 (for 3.6 and 6.9Ah) for a 5.5 volt 600Ma solar panel with Cree led. It charges to about 4.1 volts and discharges to about 3.3 every day for almost a year now. It seems (from this unscientific experiment) that they could be made not to deplete past 1.1 volts per cell. I also purposely drain em (other smaller solar leds) down just to see and they do still charge.

2009 Jul 12 04:18 PM

[Chancer]

With all due respect to the author, it is reasonable to consider that he may have a vested interest in promoting the use of Bolivia's lithium resources. I can imagine Bolivians in and out of govenment right now are collecting funds (or fees) from speculators (suckers) wanting to be first for Bolivia's new riches: lithium. In La Paz in 1980, the DEA head told me that the Bolivian national pastime was separating the gringo from his money.

The author may wish to address the following obstacles I have heard about) to lithium use in vehicle batteries:

1- The total world's known resources of lithium are insufficient for wide spread use in making the numerous quantitiy of electric/hybrid vehicles worldwide. Most vehicle manufacturers will opt for alternatives to lithium that are cheaper and more plentiful.

2- I understand that there is currently no viable method to separate Bolivia's lithium from the presence of other materials in the lithium (brine, etc.).

3- Most importantly, in negotiating with foreign investors and developers, Bolivia's socialist government is making unreasonable demands (that cars and batteries must be manufactured in Bolivia). In general, Bolivia has a really horrible historical track record in such negotiations. It appears that Bolivia is attempting to make current foreign investors pay now for 150 years of multinationals taking advantage of the country in resource deals.

Currently, Bolivia's attitude is an "our way or the highway" attitude and that they will leave Bolivian resources in the ground for 100 years before they yield a bit in negotiations. This attitude sends foreign investors packing. The world needs Bolivian resources including lithium less than Bolivia needs the world. I predict for this reason alone that Bolivia's lithium will never be mined in any significant amount and have virtually no benefit for their nation. Sad but true.

2009 Jul 12 04:39 PM

[a. palmer jr.]

I don't imagine when the electric cars are in full swing that they'll all use the same type batteries. Variety seems to be the spice of life in the auto industry. I would also think that everybody won't rush out and buy an EV at the same time, or even the same year, so the electric grid will have some time to grow. What I'm more concerned about is whether we'll be switching from one group of scammers (the oil guys) to another group, (the electric companies). Seeing as how the electric companies are USA based they will probably be able to pull a fast one on the public even better than what we've had to endure.

2009 Jul 12 04:40 PM