Private Prisons: A Reliable American Growth Industry 48 comments
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With the exception of the government's borrowing and spending activities, there are hardly any segments of the US economy that appear to have been inoculated against the recession which began in December 2007. There is one aspect of society however, that has continued to expand despite the difficult economic circumstances: the prison population. Additionally, and contrary to what many believe, the construction and management of jails and prisons are not functions exclusive to the government. In fact, the fourth largest correctional system in the nation is owned and operated by the Corrections Corporation of America (CXW) - only the federal government and two states operate prison systems containing more bed space than CCA. As you can see from the chart below, the United States prison population has consistently risen since 1980 (earliest year I could find available data).
click to enlarge
Furthermore, over the same 28 year period, the total US jail and prison population has represented an increasingly larger percentage of the total US civilian population.
Regardless of whether the US economy has technically bottomed or not, the reality is that cities and States across the country are dealing with substantial budget gaps that will require difficult decisions. (The same is obviously true at the federal level, with the exception of the difficult decisions part; Washington tends to avoid those). The situation is unlikely to improve in 2010, as continued property reassessments will diminish the property tax base even further. That being said, the decision to privatize prison construction and operation should appear ever more attractive to States looking to save money.
Let's assume for a moment though that, for whatever reason, the growth of private prisons does not deviate from its current trajectory, and CCA simply continues doing what it has over the past 5 years. Construction Corp. of America has clearly demonstrated solid revenue growth over the past half-decade. The Company's earnings have been growing at a more subdued pace since 2005, but capital expenditures have absolutely exploded; growing from $73.9M in 2005, to $516M in 2008. CCA isn't pouring nearly a third of its annual revenue into new property/plant investments without a reason. I'd expect that in the coming quarters, this amount of investment will begin to yield tangible returns for the Company.
Throughout the history of modern society, there has been a consistent need for the State to remove criminal offenders from the civilian population. In fact, this is considered the most basic responsibility of a government to its people. As the need for prison space continues its inevitable rise, the Corrections Corporation of America should be uniquely positioned to offer governments an efficient incarceration solution.
Disclosure: No position in CXW
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This article has 48 comments:
I would rather be a drug dealer (ironically) than make money investing in a stock like this.
Really glad i am not an American, as going by the trends in the graphs you show, the entire US population will be in jail in about 200 years!
User 381785 - I never said that I necessarily agree with whichever legal and/or social factors have contributed to the rise in the US prison population. I am merely pointing out a trend and identifying a company that stands to benefit from the continuation of that trend. Furthermore, I'm interested to know the approximate limitations of the ethical judgments that you apply towards investment decisions. Should we avoid investing in US Treasury bonds because that money could conceivably be funding warfare? What about alcohol and tobacco companies? Automakers have, in the past, manufactured unsafe vehicles; what about them? Some people have taken out loans they can't afford and subsequently had their lives "ruined", does that mean that investing in banks is immoral?
I have long thought that an excellent alternative to building and maintaining more US prisons would be to sign an agreement with Russia - for use of their unused space in the Siberian prisons.
Seems to me that this would be good for both countrys... We could house our prisoners at a greatly reduced cost and Russia could improve their economy at the same time. They already have the prisons in Siberia...why not use them? We could set up this type of prisoner housing system with a large number of poorer countrys around the world. We send a huge number of our jobs overseas now to get it done cheaper...why not just send the jobs we have in the prison system to other countries?
Then we could use the huge amounts of money that we save to fund more worthwhile projects... cancer research, etc. Duh... too much thinking out side the box for the bleeding hearts.
The comparison of investing in prisons with investing in slavery is apt. One way the above-mentioned budgetary problems will likely be met is to expand the already-existing (and already-profitable) prison-based manufacturing sector, which has labor costs that are a tiny fraction of minimum wage. This will create a financial incentive to increase incarceration rates even more.
In its decline, Rome relied heavily on conscript labor after its currency became so devalued it couldn't pay wages.
I take no issue with folks who want to invest in things I may think are unseemly. While I think personal ethics should play a part in all investment decisions, I also think those decisions are PERSONAL. You may be able to find a reason not to invest in any company -- for its environmental or social policy for example, or maybe it does business with an axis of evil country, or maybe it tests on animals, or supports offensive politicians etc. I don't mind others investing in areas I may not want to go near.
But to your point about bleeding hearts, there are simpler solutions that would be more cost effective (just drag them all outside and shoot them, for example). However, we have decided as a society to provide better care than that for all but the most hardened criminals. It does not take a bleeding heart to see a problem with shooting a petty thief or relegating a check forger to Siberia.
The problem I have with the totalitarian solutions of siberian labor camps or dragging them out and having them shot is that these are the practices of societies that take freedoms away from innocent people until anyone who doesn't conform to a narrow definition of behavior are defined as criminals. The irony is that the most "shoot 'em first ask questions later" guy is exactly the kind of person who would be the first to go in a "efficient" nation like North Korea. I don't mind some inefficiency in my justice system if it means not being one of the ones being hauled off to camp!
On Aug 22 07:02 AM ATWshop wrote:
> Time to grow up people. It seems to me that none of the people posting
> here have ever personally known some of the types of people that
> end up in our prison system. Get to know a few of them and you will
> quickly understand why they are there! Your "feel sorry for them"
> attitudes will quickly change when they live next door to you. <br/>I
> have long thought that an excellent alternative to building and maintaining
> more US prisons would be to sign an agreement with Russia - for use
> of their unused space in the Siberian prisons.
> Seems to me that this would be good for both countrys... We could
> house our prisoners at a greatly reduced cost and Russia could improve
> their economy at the same time. They already have the prisons in
> Siberia...why not use them? We could set up this type of prisoner
> housing system with a large number of poorer countrys around the
> world. We send a huge number of our jobs overseas now to get it done
> cheaper...why not just send the jobs we have in the prison system
> to other countries?
> Then we could use the huge amounts of money that we save to fund
> more worthwhile projects... cancer research, etc. Duh... too much
> thinking out side the box for the bleeding hearts.
On Aug 21 03:52 PM User 381785 wrote:
> This article is horrible and ignores all ethics. Don't invest in
> corporations that operate prisons. Research at MIT has shown that
> private prisoners cut costs by giving prisoners cheaper substitutes
> and/or outright denials for the medicines they have been prescribed.
> Why would you try to make money by investing in institutions that
> ruin peoples lives?
By the early 1930s public horror regarding the violence that was the unintended consequence of alcohol prohibition overwhelmingly favored legalization, regulation and taxation solutions.
We may well see the war on drugs end expedititously, thus freeing tens of thousands of non-violent drug offenders.
Proceed with great caution at this critical inflection point.
On Aug 22 07:02 AM ATWshop wrote:
> Time to grow up people. It seems to me that none of the people posting
> here have ever personally known some of the types of people that
> end up in our prison system. Get to know a few of them and you will
> quickly understand why they are there! Your "feel sorry for them"
> attitudes will quickly change when they live next door to you. <br/>I
> have long thought that an excellent alternative to building and maintaining
> more US prisons would be to sign an agreement with Russia - for use
> of their unused space in the Siberian prisons.
> Seems to me that this would be good for both countrys... We could
> house our prisoners at a greatly reduced cost and Russia could improve
> their economy at the same time. They already have the prisons in
> Siberia...why not use them? We could set up this type of prisoner
> housing system with a large number of poorer countrys around the
> world. We send a huge number of our jobs overseas now to get it done
> cheaper...why not just send the jobs we have in the prison system
> to other countries?
> Then we could use the huge amounts of money that we save to fund
> more worthwhile projects... cancer research, etc. Duh... too much
> thinking out side the box for the bleeding hearts.
Despite the fact that there is no legal basis to incarcerate a prisoner in another sovereign nation, let's look at the impact to jobs and the economy.
Manufacturing was the first industry to be offshored, to low wage countries like Brazil, China and India. Most of our IT work is offshored to India. The imminent Cap-N-Trade legislation means that carbon-intensive industries are likely to be offshored as utilities move across the border to Canada and Mexico to escape punitive taxes. It's easy to then run a high-voltage line to transmit the power back to the USA. ( The flow of drugs and illegal aliens shows that it's easy to get ANYTHING across the border. ) Hollywood has long offshored the production of labor-intensive animated film production (e.g. The Simpsons is made in India). Most call-center operations including back-office support is offshored. Most software testing is offshored and, increasingly, software development. We offshored the fighting of the Afghan war by hiring Afghan Tribal Warlords to fight as mercenaries. It is not only unpleasant or low-skilled jobs that have been offshored, highly skilled technical jobs have been offshored as well: legal research and pharmaceutical development is increasingly being offshored. High-quality medical care and dental care is increasingly being offshored to lower cost destinations as well.
One of the few growth industries left is our prisons. From 1980 to 2008 prison population has grown from 0.20% to 0.75% of the US population. A 4.83% annual growth rate.
It's pretty sad when you realize that prisons are one of the last "growth industries" of our nation.
On Aug 22 07:02 AM ATWshop wrote:
> Time to grow up people. It seems to me that none of the people posting
> here have ever personally known some of the types of people that
> end up in our prison system. Get to know a few of them and you will
> quickly understand why they are there! Your "feel sorry for them"
> attitudes will quickly change when they live next door to you. <br/>I
> have long thought that an excellent alternative to building and maintaining
> more US prisons would be to sign an agreement with Russia - for use
> of their unused space in the Siberian prisons.
> Seems to me that this would be good for both countrys... We could
> house our prisoners at a greatly reduced cost and Russia could improve
> their economy at the same time. They already have the prisons in
> Siberia...why not use them? We could set up this type of prisoner
> housing system with a large number of poorer countrys around the
> world. We send a huge number of our jobs overseas now to get it done
> cheaper...why not just send the jobs we have in the prison system
> to other countries?
> Then we could use the huge amounts of money that we save to fund
> more worthwhile projects... cancer research, etc. Duh... too much
> thinking out side the box for the bleeding hearts.
The author's choice to describe private prisons with a heinous euphemism ("an efficient incarceration solution") completely ignores TWO of the most-despicable aspects of the U.S. prison system.
1) Prisons are increasingly being used in the U.S. to "warehouse the poor" - as demonstrated by the demographics of the inmate population. Locking up the poor is much easier (if not cheaper) than creating employment opportunities and rehabilitating America's massive, urban slums. It is no coincidence that the explosion in the construction of private prisons in the U.S. coincides with an explosion in POVERTY.
2) Private prisons have an an even lower standard of "care" for their inmates than even the inhumane hell-holes in California's grossly over-crowded system. Furthermore, as was revealed in a Florida incarceration-scam, they are a great source of SLAVE LABOUR.
In Florida, several judges and private prison companies conspired to lock up INNOCENT CHILDREN, use them for slave labour - and then got fat on state stipends and their pool of exploited labourers (see "U.S. judges caught locking-up innocent children" www.bullionbullscanada...).
Private prisons are the new, favorite investments of Dick Cheney and Alberto Gonzales. That should be all anyone needs to know about the MORALITY of investing in a "business" which derives its profits from exploiting human misery.
What will be the next "great investment opportunity" presented by this author? A tobacco company, perhaps?
On Aug 21 03:52 PM User 381785 wrote:
> This article is horrible and ignores all ethics. Don't invest in
> corporations that operate prisons. Research at MIT has shown that
> private prisoners cut costs by giving prisoners cheaper substitutes
> and/or outright denials for the medicines they have been prescribed.
> Why would you try to make money by investing in institutions that
> ruin peoples lives?
I do miss the compassionate bend toward incarcerated offenders, comparing them with pediatric cancer victims, but agree with the idea that I'll rest better with my money "growing" elsewhere.
However, I think ethics are rather important, and can lead to investment risk, a la cigarettes.
Regarding prisons, an ethics perspective would be to look at prison labor. A growing prison population would lead to a larger captive work force that is in no position to bargain for higher wages. This is a capitalist's dream come true - nearly free labor, right in our own backyards. However, from a societal standpoint, one would have to question whether or not slavery was actually abolished 100 years ago, and whether or not slavery is actually a model to aspire to.
I've seen enough quality furniture labeled with the federal prison stamp to make me think that this is enough of an issue to warrant addressing.
2) Investing alongside Cheney might be a very lucrative strategy. I should have started a Cheney ETF years ago.
3) From your tone of moral superiority, I assume that you have thoroughly vetted every dollar you spend; assuring that at all times, you are only supporting products manufactured under the most humane conditions? Just out of interest, what sort of clothing do you wear? Filled up a gas tank recently?
On Aug 24 04:17 PM Jeff Nielson wrote:
> Totally agree, 381785.
>
> The author's choice to describe private prisons with a heinous euphemism
> ("an efficient incarceration solution") completely ignores TWO of
> the most-despicable aspects of the U.S. prison system.
>
> 1) Prisons are increasingly being used in the U.S. to "warehouse
> the poor" - as demonstrated by the demographics of the inmate population.
> Locking up the poor is much easier (if not cheaper) than creating
> employment opportunities and rehabilitating America's massive, urban
> slums. It is no coincidence that the explosion in the construction
> of private prisons in the U.S. coincides with an explosion in POVERTY.
>
>
> 2) Private prisons have an an even lower standard of "care" for their
> inmates than even the inhumane hell-holes in California's grossly
> over-crowded system. Furthermore, as was revealed in a Florida incarceration-scam,
> they are a great source of SLAVE LABOUR.
>
> In Florida, several judges and private prison companies conspired
> to lock up INNOCENT CHILDREN, use them for slave labour - and then
> got fat on state stipends and their pool of exploited labourers (see
> "U.S. judges caught locking-up innocent children" www.bullionbullscanada...;view=article&...
>
>
> Private prisons are the new, favorite investments of Dick Cheney
> and Alberto Gonzales. That should be all anyone needs to know about
> the MORALITY of investing in a "business" which derives its profits
> from exploiting human misery.
>
> What will be the next "great investment opportunity" presented by
> this author? A tobacco company, perhaps?
i usually am in your camp. you have a sharp tongue that usually speaks the truth. unfortunately i have a little problem with this specific instance. i actually had a good friend talk to me about this SAME company about two days ago and thought it uncanny for this article to come up when it did. he is a moral and stand up guy who i respect on ALL fronts. he looked at this as an investment and nothing more.
however i digress...have you ever been to prison. im not saying your local drunk bin...but real state penitentiary. i am not advocating one way or the other- just a question. what is your experience in the pen system.
On Aug 24 05:32 PM Carneades wrote:
> 1) Actually, I wish I had been alive to invest some money in say,
> Phillip Morris, prior to the worldwide embrace of the Marlboro brand.
>
>
> 2) Investing alongside Cheney might be a very lucrative strategy.
> I should have started a Cheney ETF years ago.
>
> 3) From your tone of moral superiority, I assume that you have thoroughly
> vetted every dollar you spend; assuring that at all times, you are
> only supporting products manufactured under the most humane conditions?
> Just out of interest, what sort of clothing do you wear? Filled up
> a gas tank recently?
On Aug 24 05:32 PM Carneades wrote:
> 1) Actually, I wish I had been alive to invest some money in say,
> Phillip Morris, prior to the worldwide embrace of the Marlboro brand.
>
>
> 2) Investing alongside Cheney might be a very lucrative strategy.
> I should have started a Cheney ETF years ago.
>
> 3) From your tone of moral superiority, I assume that you have thoroughly
> vetted every dollar you spend; assuring that at all times, you are
> only supporting products manufactured under the most humane conditions?
> Just out of interest, what sort of clothing do you wear? Filled up
> a gas tank recently?
If the prisons industrial complex is to profit, it needs the states to avoid running combined $120 billion deficit! Prisons used to produce good returns, as a result of a drug war that never ends, nor succeeds.
Financial realities are going to limit returns for this industry. The more expensive it is to house inmate--and pay for their health care, at that of their guards!--the less profits. So the prisons' model doesn't hold up, unless of course it can cash in on overseas opportunities.
There are undoubtedly thousands who can be labelled enemies of the state all over the world, who can then be imprisoned indefinitely without trial. (The US has set policy in this regard, and taken prisoner abuse to a new low, towards a precedent set by the dictators and authoritarian regimes of the world.) Better be careful imprisoning them, especially people like Mandela, who might get out one day and cut your company out, not to mention imprisoning all the people who ran the prisons where they were abused.
The people you revile as "inmates" are there because of mental problems (thats why we now have psych meds) or lack of education in thingsdhansen548 - update bio / update picture
update links to your business / blog / book
Com like job skills and impulse control. Lets be firm and fix what is wrong with their brains or their behavior; we don't need to turn them into slaves of the state in the process.
1. Chap08's comment pointed out that because of falling revenues and growing budget deficits the states may have to turn to early release or premature paroles to cut the cost of maintaining the prison population (let alone increasing it). Just what we need, more convicted criminals out roaming free. Like that's going to help the economy.
2. At some point, government entities will have a large enough population managed by private contractors that they will start mandating "savings" by slashing the price they are willing to pay. Think Medicare payments. Once a company becomes totally dependent upon a government entity, it is at the mercy of the leaders of that same government entity. As contracts come up for renewal, the government will apply the screws and use public opinion to back them up on the unwieldy and exorbitant pricing practices and profits of the evil private prison management company. Just wait - they will drive down margins and there will be nowhere else to turn.
3. Even without budgetary problems at the state level, the judicial system is turning harder to the left even as I write. I wouldn't be surprised to see liberal judges reducing sentences and legislating prison reform from the bench (as they have in the past) that will reduce the rate of growth in prison populations. Shorter initial terms with earlier paroles could go a long way toward reducing the overcrowding problems.
Now, having said all that, I do hope I'm wrong on all three points. They are points of conjecture; things that could happen rather than anything with any factual backing. It just goes down to my core belief that we can't really trust politicians to honor contractual and moral obligations or liberal judges to uphold the law.
If it were not for the budget problems faced by the states I would be less hesitant to follow the author's advice. The other points will probably take a while to occur.
Also, 'Why would you try to make money by investing in institutions that ruin peoples lives?' is a little dramatic don't you think? Most of the people in prison ruined their OWN lives (and/or other people's lives) by the decisions they made, I don't feel sorry for them one bit.
On Aug 21 03:52 PM User 381785 wrote:
> This article is horrible and ignores all ethics. Don't invest in
> corporations that operate prisons. Research at MIT has shown that
> private prisoners cut costs by giving prisoners cheaper substitutes
> and/or outright denials for the medicines they have been prescribed.
> Why would you try to make money by investing in institutions that
> ruin peoples lives?
Be Careful On "Blanket Blame" - To Mention The Constitution Is To Be A Possible Extremist In The USA Today And History Has Shown That Prohibition Makes Criminals Out Of The Benign.
It is no longer "The Justice System" It Is Now "The Money Mill".
When The Non-Violent Are "Fed To The Wolves In The General Population" Because Of "Overcrowding" - I Feel Remorse.
On Aug 24 11:44 PM BPYHO wrote:
> On one hand I see your point, however, the goal of investing is to
> make money and the author points out a company that many of us would
> have never even thought to look at.
>
> Also, 'Why would you try to make money by investing in institutions
> that ruin peoples lives?' is a little dramatic don't you think?
> Most of the people in prison ruined their OWN lives (and/or other
> people's lives) by the decisions they made, I don't feel sorry for
> them one bit.
Why Not Coffin Makers?
Might Need Quite A Few In The Coming Months Due To The Efforts Of “The Benevolent Governments and Friends”.
The Time-line Of These “Tidbits”, That Did Not Seem To Get Much Publicity In The US, Is “Interesting”.
Jan 19, 2005 – Congressional Report On Mandatory Vaccinations
fas.org/sgp/crs/RS2141...
May 2006 – Congress Creates Liability Shield For Vaccines That CAUSE Pandemic
www.citizen.org/docume...
Feb 2, 2009 – Canadians Find Un-Weakened Avian Flue In Baxter Vaccines
www.torontosun.com/new...
March 11, 2009 – Summary Baxter Incident
preventdisease.com/new...
Aug 14, 2009 – WHO Launches Global Vaccination “Military Assisted”
columbiavalleynews.com.../
Aug 17, 2009 – Nerve Disorder Associated With Flu Vaccine
www.theherald.co.uk/ne...
Aug 25, 2009 – The Hype Continues To Escalate
www.bloomberg.com/apps...
All Information Is “Suspect” – Think For Your Self.
It is an easy process to transfer the mentally ill from a psychiatric facility to a prison: Just release the mentally ill patients on the street. Wait until they they do something crazy, (like stealing a sandwich from the grocery store) then lock them up for that crime.
Locking up the mentally ill is another contributor to the growth in our prison population.
"Prisons, America's Growth Industry"
On Aug 25 08:14 AM Daniel Herkes wrote:
> The price of freedom is crime.
Another poster mentioned that minor drug crimes have imprisoned a lot of people so it is obvious that with minor changes of the law, the funding to house these people to fund prison expansion can end. There is more prisons in USA that any industrial country, there is no need for more.
I think you're also making some faulty assumptions about the political and ideological balance of the country in matters of criminal justice; specifically where you perceive an inevitable trend towards rehabilitation v. deterrence, incapacitation, and retribution.
It's exactly that sort of misreading of the political tea leaves which caused the current Administration's health care reform attempt to backfire. I don't profess to know the answer either, I'd just say that it's a bit presumptuous to assert that any policy shift is certain.
On Aug 25 10:32 AM Tesa wrote:
> Sounds like the prison industry is trying to hand in their bags if
> you asked me or they are lobbying to acquire more funding as they
> know that the funding for this growth industry is going to dry up
> soon. The data that the author has posted contradicts his conclusions
> in fact. What it does show is the fact the growth of prison population
> is not sustainable given that there isn't more cash to sustain
> it. The fact the the fact growing percentage of population has been
> imprisoned to fund this miserable growth industry will work against
> it in fact.
>
> Another poster mentioned that minor drug crimes have imprisoned
> a lot of people so it is obvious that with minor changes of the law,
> the funding to house these people to fund prison expansion can end.
> There is more prisons in USA that any industrial country, there is
> no need for more.
On Aug 25 11:44 AM Carneades wrote:
> If you were to look at these charts 10 years ago, I bet you would
> have come to the same conclusion regarding the trend being "unsustainable".
> You likely would have been operating off of the same assumption about
> drug legalization being "imminent". The simple existence of an upwards
> trending chart is not evidence that the trend is bound to reverse
> course.
>
> I think you're also making some faulty assumptions about the political
> and ideological balance of the country in matters of criminal justice;
> specifically where you perceive an inevitable trend towards rehabilitation
> v. deterrence, incapacitation, and retribution.
>
> It's exactly that sort of misreading of the political tea leaves
> which caused the current Administration's health care reform attempt
> to backfire. I don't profess to know the answer either, I'd just
> say that it's a bit presumptuous to assert that any policy shift
> is certain.
Of course it would be nice if treatment programs could be funded for those who want to get help. Unfortunately, many addicts don't want to get help. I like the British model: register as an addict and get drugs. This cuts down on a lot of crime and the use of dirty needles spreading AIDS and Hepatitis-C. If you want to ruin your life, at least do it in a socially responsible way.
The vast majority of folks in jail are poor people of color who were arrested on drug charges. The legal system protects people with money, so affluent teenagers avoid jail time while the poor are stuck with substandard representation. Formerly incarcerated people have a very tough time getting jobs, so recidivism is rampant.
This industry does NOT need a profit incentive to grow. The industry actually PROFITS from recidivism, so they often set people up to fail. They will release a person at midnight in January with a set of summer clothers. They will release people with no family, no job, and no place to stay. They will release mentally ill people without medication. And I personally know a 50-year-old woman detained for over a year for signing a Fedex package containing drugs. She had never been in trouble before.
Yes, there are lots of people who deserve to be incarcerated. All actions have consequences, and the consequence of crime is prison.
But the idea of deporting American citizens to Soviet Russia is shameful.
On Aug 22 07:02 AM ATWshop wrote:
> Time to grow up people. It seems to me that none of the people posting
> here have ever personally known some of the types of people that
> end up in our prison system. Get to know a few of them and you will
> quickly understand why they are there! Your "feel sorry for them"
> attitudes will quickly change when they live next door to you. <br/>I
> have long thought that an excellent alternative to building and maintaining
> more US prisons would be to sign an agreement with Russia - for use
> of their unused space in the Siberian prisons.
> Seems to me that this would be good for both countrys... We could
> house our prisoners at a greatly reduced cost and Russia could improve
> their economy at the same time. They already have the prisons in
> Siberia...why not use them? We could set up this type of prisoner
> housing system with a large number of poorer countrys around the
> world. We send a huge number of our jobs overseas now to get it done
> cheaper...why not just send the jobs we have in the prison system
> to other countries?
> Then we could use the huge amounts of money that we save to fund
> more worthwhile projects... cancer research, etc. Duh... too much
> thinking out side the box for the bleeding hearts.
"But the idea of deporting American citizens to Soviet Russia is shameful." Nice defamatory statement but no real explanation as to why this would be so. I read recently where 70%-80% of IBM employees are from outside the US...what is so great about the jobs created by our prison system that we would want to keep them here at a higher cost??? Have your noticed how many items recently have a label on them that reads "Made in Mexico" or "Assembled in Mexico"?
So, Robert, if you don't like the idea of Russia here is another one. Lets export them to Mexico. The cost of building new prisons in Mexico would help to stimulate the Mexican economy. When the prisons are ready, the need for guards and caretakers would create a huge number of jobs and again stimulate the Mexican economy. These new jobs would then help to stem the flow of illegals into our country which in turn would create more jobs here for the prison system employees that lost their jobs to Mexico. Our crime rate in the southwestern US would decrease. We should be able to lower everyone's tax bills as we would be able to have the prisoners housed at much lower cost. Then if someone is released in the middle of the Winter, they wouldn't freeze to death. It seems to me that everyone just wants to look at the problems with our Judicial system rather than a way to solve the bigger problem of lowering the cost of housing prisoners... these are two very different issues and should not be lumped together. I will agree that our Judicial system is a mess and runs on the money they make for themselves...no argument from me with that one. I also agree that many of the people in prison should have never been there - but that is not the issue here.
Thank you for a thoughtful and constructive response.
Based on what I know, it is simply not legally permissible to deport an American citizen. The law only allows for deportation of people who are NOT citizens, or who obtained their citizenship fraudulently.
So, even if we could save lots of money by jailing people in Mexico, Russia, or other countries, we would have to revoke a person's citizenship. That is a penalty that no judge can impose. I'm not an attorney, but even if it were possible, I believe that it would violate the constitution. Money is not the issue; inalienable rights are the issue. If we were to use the approach you suggest, I believe we'd have to amend the constitution.
As you noted, there are two issues at play here: The cost of housing inmates and the dysfunctional judicial system. How about this proposal: Why not use excess space at jails and prisons for transitional work-release programs?
I say this because NO ONE wants a former inmates to be rehabilitated in THEIR backyard. But if the program were conducted in the prison itself, you could avoid the "not-in-my-backyard" problem. The program should be structured with incentives based on the percentage of prisoners who returned to the workforce (and who did not commit parole violations).
In any case, I genuinely appreciate your constuctive attitude. I had a TOTALLY different view of prisons before I went inside one. For one thing, you would be astounded at the costs. I saw a fingerprint machine that sold for $10,000. You know what it was? It was a Xerox machine with an IBM computer in the bottom and some data encryption software. This is a total ripoff. Why? I was told that prisons don't accept fingerprints from other prisons. Because if something goes wrong, it is the warden who gets the heat. So the warden covers his posterior by spending inordinate amounts of money on duplicate fingerprints.
It is beyond the scope of this space to comment on race, but the issue is unavoidable when discussing incarceration. I serve at a historically black church, which you can confirm at CalvaryBC.org. I have learned that disparate treatment by the police and the judicial system is a fact of life in the black community. It is just a given. I would hesitate to discuss details on SeekingAlpha because I would probably be labeled a racist, a facist, a bleeding heart, or some bizarre combination of all three. But I have changed my opinion 180 degrees after talking with inmates. There are just WAY too many people of color who are in jail or prison on drug charges. Granted, this reflects a class issue, too, since legal representaiton is expensive. But my experience as a minister has helped me to better understand the yawning racial divide that dominates any conversation about the U.S. judicial system. (Case in point: the Gates controversy, which I discussed here: seekingalpha.com/artic...
Enough ranting from me : )
Thanks again, and be well.
Rob
On Aug 26 05:33 AM ATWshop wrote:
> Robert Mart...: Quote:
> "But the idea of deporting American citizens to Soviet Russia is
> shameful." Nice defamatory statement but no real explanation as to
> why this would be so. I read recently where 70%-80% of IBM employees
> are from outside the US...what is so great about the jobs created
> by our prison system that we would want to keep them here at a higher
> cost??? Have your noticed how many items recently have a label on
> them that reads "Made in Mexico" or "Assembled in Mexico"?
> So, Robert, if you don't like the idea of Russia here is another
> one. Lets export them to Mexico. The cost of building new prisons
> in Mexico would help to stimulate the Mexican economy. When the prisons
> are ready, the need for guards and caretakers would create a huge
> number of jobs and again stimulate the Mexican economy. These new
> jobs would then help to stem the flow of illegals into our country
> which in turn would create more jobs here for the prison system employees
> that lost their jobs to Mexico. Our crime rate in the southwestern
> US would decrease. We should be able to lower everyone's tax bills
> as we would be able to have the prisoners housed at much lower cost.
> Then if someone is released in the middle of the Winter, they wouldn't
> freeze to death. It seems to me that everyone just wants to look
> at the problems with our Judicial system rather than a way to solve
> the bigger problem of lowering the cost of housing prisoners... these
> are two very different issues and should not be lumped together.
> I will agree that our Judicial system is a mess and runs on the money
> they make for themselves...no argument from me with that one. I also
> agree that many of the people in prison should have never been there
> - but that is not the issue here.
I have not seen the racial side of our judicial system but would bow to your experience and agree that much work is needed to right the wrongs that occur with respect to people of color.
I greatly appreciate your input... while my original idea will likely never be taken seriously, we both agree that the cost of running our prison system is out of control and needs to be drastically changed for the benefit of the general public and the prisoners.
I have to wonder what has to happen to have our elected officials take a hard look at the Judicial System and the Prison System?
As a father of 4 sons (now all grown) I have always been angered by the fact that in my area our law enforcement and court system has taken a "profit" approach to crimes. i.e. I have lived in this area for 19 years. In that time - the police have never arrested anyone for the offense of "buying liquor for a minor"..while there is a weekly list of young people arrested for "underage drinking". The fine for underage drinking is $500 per arrest. Hmmmmmm...consider the profit if they only make 1,000 arrests a year and then consider the profit if this is being done nation wide!!!
The same holds true for Drugs... There has never been an arrest in 19 years of any small, medium or large drug dealer... but at the same time there are weekly arrests made for possession of drugs. Just another way for the Judicial System to add HUGE sums of money to the coffers while endangering the lives of our young people. My respect for all forms of Law Enforcement and our Judicial System is currently extremely low.
Thanks for listening...Howard
Howard,
I am GREATLY heartened by your response. Conversations like this are what make SA great.
You have highlighted why the judicial system is so dysfunctional: The financial incentives are terrible, and incent all of the WRONG types of behavior. And support for the police collapses when people feel that fines and tickets are seen as a source of revenue, and not as simply the enforcement of laws.
I am amazed that that they have not arrested any drug dealers in 19 years in your area. Likewise for selling liquor to a minor. It makes you wonder if the system is focused on fining people, rather than rooting out the dealers and vendors of drugs and alcohol.
By the way, following the money makes a lot of sense when you want to understand an industry. I recently wrote about ETFs and the Wealth Management industry, and I concluded that the system has huge vested interests in high fees. seekingalpha.com/artic...
As for the politics of prisons, if we could get people to focus on how COSTS for the prison system are out of control, then maybe liberals and conservatives could unite. I am very disheartened with partisan politics in this country at the moment. PARTISAN POLITICS IS POISONING AMERICA. People can no longer respectfully disagree, and we are left with dysfunctional systems.
As a result, whether I act as an investor or a preacher, I AM PROACTIVELY NON-PARTISAN. I believe that many investors are blinded by their political views, to the detriment of their clients and to potential alpha. As for the pulpit, I believe churches should preach principles, and not endorse parties or candidates. I preached recently about the political divide between white and black churches, and I'll have to post online. This country would benefit from it.
OK, my rant is over.
In the meantime, I pray that you and your family enjoy the rest of the summer.
"For thou shalt eat the labour of thine hands: happy shalt thou be, and it shall be well with thee." Psalm 128:3
That's not a bad prayer for Labor Day!
Blessings on your BBQ.
: )
Grace and peace,
Rob
On Aug 27 07:16 AM ATWshop wrote:
> Robert... You present some excellent information and we are basically
> in agreement regarding not only the misuse of funds needed to operate
> the prison system but also the rip off due to price of equipment
> and other necessary items.
> I have not seen the racial side of our judicial system but would
> bow to your experience and agree that much work is needed to right
> the wrongs that occur with respect to people of color.
> I greatly appreciate your input... while my original idea will likely
> never be taken seriously, we both agree that the cost of running
> our prison system is out of control and needs to be drastically changed
> for the benefit of the general public and the prisoners.
> I have to wonder what has to happen to have our elected officials
> take a hard look at the Judicial System and the Prison System?<br/>
>
> As a father of 4 sons (now all grown) I have always been angered
> by the fact that in my area our law enforcement and court system
> has taken a "profit" approach to crimes. i.e. I have lived in this
> area for 19 years. In that time - the police have never arrested
> anyone for the offense of "buying liquor for a minor"..while there
> is a weekly list of young people arrested for "underage drinking".
> The fine for underage drinking is $500 per arrest. Hmmmmmm...consider
> the profit if they only make 1,000 arrests a year and then consider
> the profit if this is being done nation wide!!!
> The same holds true for Drugs... There has never been an arrest in
> 19 years of any small, medium or large drug dealer... but at the
> same time there are weekly arrests made for possession of drugs.
> Just another way for the Judicial System to add HUGE sums of money
> to the coffers while endangering the lives of our young people. My
> respect for all forms of Law Enforcement and our Judicial System
> is currently extremely low.
> Thanks for listening...Howard
The latest bad news I read was how our Congress allocated the funds to improve our Homeland Security program. Just more personal projects being funded rather than sending the money where it is needed. Shameful actions by our esteemed Congress.
Then today I read that Whirlpool is closing their Evansville, IN plant and moving the 1,100 jobs to Mexico by the middle of next year. How much longer will we be able to export jobs and still run our country.
Maybe CA has it right... lets have a State Wide Garage sale and maybe even resort back to the good old days of Bake sales so that we can all survive.
Enough of my rant... Enjoy your weekend!!! God Speed to you and your family...Howard
If you had no health insurance, and you faced a very expensive and life-threatening illness, for example: open heart surgery. A person could commit a crime a crime intentionally in order to go to jail and have the state pay for that person's life-saving procedure.
Sobering thought.
Of course, now with Obamacare, we won't have to worry aobut that scenario
On Aug 25 02:54 PM AuGod! wrote:
> hmmm ..... may just be "the" plan. When I retire, disaffected, alienated,
> broken, despondent, apprehensive, jaded, tired, hungry, weak, sick
> and potentially violent there are three square meals and four walls
> (plus convenient toilet and sink) to turn to.
1. The US has the largest percentage of its population in prison of anywhere in the world. This is largely a result of the prison-industrial complex. The highly profitable private prison system is a major lobby group just as the defense industry is. People in the US are not inherently so evil compared to people in other countries. We put people into jail for a lot of stupid things. Look up what percentage of people in jails are for non-violent drug-related crimes. Last I checked it was around 25%. I would be perfectly happy to have those people live next door to me and, contrary to your claim, I do not understand why they are in prison. It wasn't that long ago that the opium smokers associations were campaigning for the prohibition of alcohol.
2. You remarked in a later post about how much money California (and indeed all of America) spends on prisoners and prisons. Don't you realize this is because we're putting tons of people into prisons that don't belong there? The answer isn't to treat them worse, to skimp on the funding, or to embrace capital punishment. We need to let a lot of those people out of prison and return to a system where there is actually a good reason why these people are serving time.
It is quite ironic that we are supposed to be free in America and yet we have more prisoners than China despite having a tiny percentage of their population.
I also don't appreciate your arrogant and annoying remarks that are supposed to get other posters angry. To say that "it's time to grow up" and things like that is what is actually truly childish.
To Carneades: while there is no black and white line that can be easily drawn between ethical and non-ethical investment decisions, there is a big difference between investing in privatized prisons and the defense industry versus investing in treasuries. For you to compare investing in companies which make bombs and lobby for more wars to automakers who make cars that aren't perfectly safe is ridiculous. That said, I refuse to get a license and will never own a car but I don't fault those who do. I would highly recommend boycotting the defense industry, big oil, prison companies, big pharma, nike, mcdonalds, walmart, other big sweatshop companies, etc. Ignore ethics if you insist, but don't pretend that all companies are ethically identical.
On Aug 22 07:02 AM ATWshop wrote:
> Time to grow up people. It seems to me that none of the people posting
> here have ever personally known some of the types of people that
> end up in our prison system. Get to know a few of them and you will
> quickly understand why they are there! Your "feel sorry for them"
> attitudes will quickly change when they live next door to you.
If ones' family member was picked up in error, I wonder if you would be so quick to cry out for the hangman. On the other hand, you can't be too soft on criminals either, because they then exploit that too.
Sadly, there are many in jail who actually shouldn't be there, DNA testing time and time again has proved it. And California's 3 strikes law is ridiculous for small time offenders.
And then there are the repeat offenders, those that couldn't be rehabilitated even if they had 2 lifetimes, they are just nasty people.
On Aug 22 02:38 PM JCCIII wrote:
> To the bleeding-hearts who commented above. I suppose you agree with
> Scotland's recent release of the Lockerby (sp) murderer; released
> for compassionate reasons (he is dying of cancer), after all, he
> did spend about 10 days in jail for each of the people he murdered.
> When you, personally, are ready to provide a job, a room in your
> home, etc., for the released prisoner who did not repay society for
> his crime; then you may have some credibility. Until then, you are
> disgusting (just like to Scottish official(s) who released the Lockerby
> terrorist; I say bring back capital punishment, and do it in a timely
> manner (6 months maximum from conviction to execution).