Mercedes: Hundreds of Thousands of Hydrogen Cars Coming

By Michael Kanellos

FRANKFURT, Germany -- The hydrogen car isn't dead at Daimler (DAI).

Dieter Zetsche, chairman of the German auto maker and the head of Mercedes-Benz, told an audience today during a fanfare at the International Auto Show taking place in Frankfurt that the company is still committed to hydrogen cars.

The company is about to enter into "low volume" production of the F-Cell, Mercedes' hydrogen car, as well as an all-electric smart car.

The market will see hundreds of thousands of them over the next few years from a variety of manufacturers, he added. Germany is also trying to ready a national network of hydrogen filling stations.

Although hydrogen has its skeptics, many still see it as a way to get around one of the more intractable problems with electric cars: the lengthy charge time. A hydrogen tank can be filled in minutes and can continue to charge a car's battery for hundreds of kilometers.

Critics, though, abound. "Personally, I don't see it happening in the next ten to 15 years," said Wolfgang Hatz, who heads up drivetrain research for the Volkswagen group, in a separate interview.

The crowd around the F-Cell was also a lot lighter than the one around the new car Mercedes unveiled today: the SLS AMG, an all-electric coming in 2013. There were at least a thousand people in the room.

Comments

[Mark Bern]

The real intractable problem with the electric car is not just the charge time, it's the source of electricity. We would need to build more power plants to generate all the additional electricity. Unless we can tap wind, solar and nuclear for the new demand we won't be eliminating the dependency on fossil fuels or cleaning up the environment all that much.

2009 Sep 15 08:16 PM

[TinyTim]

Thanks for the heads up on the SLS AMG.
Sounds like a supercar with 48kWh of Li-Ion batteries and a motor on each wheel. Sure to cost six figures.

Mark Bern-
I hear your comment frequently. In fact, utilities would profit from electric cars as long as they recharged during off peak hours at night. Very little utility infrastructure would have to be added in this case since there is such a disparity between on and off peak use. Capital utilization would go way up.

You are correct of course that the fuel to generate the extra electricity is not free. From the utility perspective, their base load would increase and the on-off peak fluctuation would decrease. Ideally, over time they would take advantage of this by using less expensive base load fuel sources.

A typical electric car (24 kWh) charging in 6-8 hours is about the same electrical load as a hot water heater or a cooking range. The ratio between electric and gasoline cost per mile is about 1:7.

2009 Sep 15 09:52 PM

[EVNow]

Charging time is not an intractable problem. Already Nissan special chargers can charge some 80% in 25 minutes. Even an evolutionary change in that will get us to near gas refill times in a decade. By that time both solar thermal and PV will be at or better than grid parity making green power easily available.

2009 Sep 15 11:25 PM

[Road Runner]

I will believe in hydrogen cars when I see them. And I will believe in hydrogen refueling stations when I see them.

I haven't seen concrete specifications for one. It all seems like vaporware hype at this point. I'm not talking negative about the possibility that there may be real hydrogen cars in the next 10 years. I'm just in "show me the car" mode.

2009 Sep 16 12:29 AM

[jerrydd]

We have seen this before. Car companies don't like EV's because they last forever and need few replacement parts which greatly lowers their profits.

So they are now trying to pull the Fuel Cell scam again just like the headfake of them in the 80's which failed just like this one will. Why is costs. H2 is very expensive, ineff if total costs are taken into account. H2 itself costs $10/gal equivalent as it's ineff to make, store, transport. No where do they mention that H2 leaks out of 2" of steel along with making it brittle.

Then let's look at foolcells, they are expensive, far more than a 400 mile range lithium battery pack and limited life, the cells becoming poisoned just by the air of fuels used and the heat, etc.

Now look at the alt, EV's. A good EV can be built now using lead batteries that goes 100 miles and can be charged in 15 minutes to 80% charged. With a quality charger they will last 5-8 yrs and only cost $1k to replace and probably less in mass production

By building them in composites but using medium tech FG, Kevlar, etc instead of carbon fiber, using DC motors, controllers and other industrial EV parts, lead traction batteries these can be very cost effective, built for under $11k for a 2 seat sportwagon, $15k for a 4 passenger one. With a 10hp/1000lbs of EV, generator you can get unlimited range at over 100mpg as an option.

But do we get such sensible EV's? No we get needlessly expensive, heavy, future tech that raises the cost as car companies try to prove EV's are not viable.

Such a low drag EV on lithium would need only 60-100wthrs/mile of energy, 40% of those proposed, thus needing 40% of the battery, EV drive, brakes, tires, suspension, etc making EV's very cost effective. But Composite bodies, chassis' don't rust so they won't do them either. Cost of composites is lower than steel because the tooling is many, many times less costly and materials are about the same.

My composite 100 mile range, 80mph EV sportwagon would cost under $12k to produce with a very good profit margin. The body/chassis only costs $2k in low #'s, the battery, EV drive only $2.5k and another $3k for everything else and labor shows this can be done. I've done composites for 35 yrs now so know what I'm talking about. In high production numbers these can cost even less.

Car companies better get their act together as these can be done without them and with the $150bbl oil late next yr will be done. The only question is will it be them or other new car companies.

2009 Sep 16 09:25 AM

[a. palmer jr.]

I think I would rather face the problems inherent with building an electric or hydrogen infrastructure than continue to face the problem inherent with humoring a bunch of middle east terrorists that have as their goal the destruction of the west.

2009 Sep 16 10:12 AM

[oilsands]

jerrydd makes many good points. Gasoline is going up sharply. If the big auto companies try to flim-flam us again, they will find competition from start ups. Or from large companies overseas. A quick to produce composite of medium and low technologies will have a tremendous cost advantage, which is what this market needs now. We can afford to subsidize these efforts because it is internal USA economic stimulus, rather than a dead loss of paying out for middle eastern oil. We will survive by a combination of approaches, not a silver bullet. We need natural gas vehicles, electric vehicles and mass transit, among other things. Think WWII and the battle for survival, because that is the reality.

2009 Sep 16 10:35 AM

[Living4Dividends]

Hydrogen cars - what a load of hype - to get the infrastructure in plae will require a massive commitment - building a networking of hydrogen fueling stations will require a great commitment that I don't think the country is not fiscally prepared to make.

2009 Sep 17 07:39 AM

[Clint007]

Well, another system!

I will take at least years before the world will find "THE" best way to power a car.
But who will be the winner?

2009 Sep 17 09:25 AM

[doubleguns]

Hydrogenics Corp. (HYGS) makes the on site hydrogen refueling stations. No need to transport hydrogen anywhere. They are in use in Iceland as a test as well in a bus fleet in canada.

socialpicks.com/stock/... -----talks about deals in canada bus fleet and working with ford and toyota. They have a product that looks good but we will have to see. A lot of corrupt politicians and business dealings with lobbyists are hard at work trying to protect their rice bowls in a lot of technologies right now and which one gets to the finish line first is unknown.


On Sep 16 12:29 AM Road Runner wrote:

> I will believe in hydrogen cars when I see them. And I will believe
> in hydrogen refueling stations when I see them.
>
> I haven't seen concrete specifications for one. It all seems like
> vaporware hype at this point. I'm not talking negative about the
> possibility that there may be real hydrogen cars in the next 10 years.
> I'm just in "show me the car" mode.

2009 Sep 17 09:52 AM

[doubleguns]

Clint007, did not see your comment about "who will be the winner". I feel the same way. We could make a million if we knew.

2009 Sep 17 11:47 AM

[vman650]

If you believe in global warming then we have no choice. Electric cars are the answer. All new technologies have problems . I am old enough to remember the first TV sets, calculators, home computers and telephones. Nuclear power can furnish us with all of the electricity we need. Contrary to concerns, it is safe and the waste can be safely stored. Continuing to burn gasoline will kill our economy and eventually our planet. Where there is a will, there is a way.

2009 Sep 17 07:35 PM