Hydrogen-Fueled Cars Become a Thing of the Present 23 comments
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At the beginning of October, I posted an article on hydrogen-based fuel technology eventually leading to the demise of the oil industry. Of course, this is not something that is going to occur in the short-term, but man is getting closer to harnessing this potential renewable energy source and it may offer encouragement for those nail-biting Cassandras who foretell doom and gloom consequences of peak oil and inflationary pressures brought on by limited energy resources.
While I am an eternal optimist and still believe that necessity is the mother of invention, I also acknowledge that technology will not solve all of the world’s problems. Yet when innovation is married to technology and/or intelligent ideas and thoughtful planning, it tends to alleviate more than its fair share.
Today, I share a news excerpt on the future of hydrogen fueled vehicles from Sunday’s Yahoo News. There are no insights on immediate gratification investment strategies to be gleaned from this article. About the only benefits one may derive from reading it are hope and inspiration. I suppose I could write about CIT’s (CIT) unavoidable bankruptcy, but there will be plenty of coverage on this and other negative news events in the media and on countless blogs, so why bother?
Here is the article. Enjoy and visualize the reality of such and all its potential positive impacts:
"When the US government cut funding for hydrogen-fueled cars last May, Energy Secretary Steven Chu said such vehicles will not be practical for another decade or two.
Lim Tae-won thinks he can prove Secretary Chu wrong.
Dr. Lim runs the team at Hyundai (HYMLF.PK)-Kia Motors that is developing hydrogen fuel cell technology. And they are on course, he says, to mass produce hydrogen cars in six years…"
Like every business venture, there is no certainty and therefore this is a gamble. The undertaking to develop this into a commercially viable energy source relies upon funding from the Korean government. Unlike the U.S., Korea probably has the money to fund such a program and as they are keen to carve out leadership niches in the global economy and new world order, look for their commitment to manifest itself in earnest.
For those who think this idea is too far-fetched, just remember when the big three auto-makers scoffed at the concept of hybrid vehicles back in the day.
Disclosures: Hillbent does not provide individualized market advice. The information we publish regards companies in which we believe our readers may be interested and our reports reflect our sincere opinions. Nevertheless, they are not intended to be personalized recommendations to buy, hold, or sell securities. Investments in the securities markets, and especially in options, are speculative and involve substantial risk. Each individual investor should determine their respective appropriate level of risk. It is recommended that you seek personal advice from your professional investment advisor and conduct further independent due diligence research before acting on information published in any of our reports. Most of our information is derived directly from information published by the companies on which we report and/or from other sources we deem to be reliable, without our independent verification.
Therefore, we cannot assure the completeness or accuracy of information contained within these reports and we do not in any way warrant or guarantee the success of any action which you take in reliance on our statements.
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Hyundai or anyone else investing in H2 cars, trucks are going to lose. Why is they take 4x's the energy or more to go the same distance in the same size vehicle as an EV. Not only that but cost far more than a battery car.
H2 loses energy making, storing and using it. They are only about 20% eff if fuel cell and 5% if ICE.
With the price of energy in our future, no one will be able to afford it.
This is basic physics, limitations, which isn't going to change more than a few %.
Vs BEV's which are dropping in price fast. A BEV costs less to build as an EV motor weighs, costs far less to make and doesn't need a transmission. Only the battery makes it cost more and they are dropping in price fast. In 3 yrs BEV's will cost less than ICE's do and EV's being 3-6x's as eff depending on electric source, will clearly cost far less to run.
Notice H2 people never bother to mention H2, Compression or storage container costs? An EV can go as far on just the compression costs as an H2 can go after all it's costs.
H2 is just car companies head fakes so they don't have to build simple EV's that don't need much service, parts, and last near forever, losing their main profit centers. They do about anything to slow EV production down from making them complicated, expensive.
They could now build using 40-100 yr old tech, light, aero, medium tech composite 2 seat 80 mph, 100 mile range EV's that get 250mpg cost equivalent, for under $12k using forklift EV drive tech and lead batteries. $15k for a 4 seater like the GM Ultra-lite show car built 20 yrs ago. But these won't rust out and the battery pack only costs $.50/day/$1000 for 5-7 yrs so they just don't want to do it.
Secondly, how do you store and handle it? Hydrogen is stored a cryogenic temperatures. Are you really proposing a cryogenic tank for an auto? That, frankly, is not practical nor economic. No one has solved this issue. There has been research on metal hydride technology but, as of this date, nothing has happened to make it practical or economic. Until this last problem is solved, hydrogen is a pipedream.
it originally read: "future for hydrogen fueled cars converges on the present" which has different implications than "hydrogen fueled cars become a thing of the present"
if you read between the lines of this story, innovation will eventually get us off oil.... whether its via EV or H2 or Solar or whatever...
1) There are no hydrogen mines or wells. Hydrogen is an energy storage system not a source. To create hydrogen we reform natural gas or do electrolysis of water. Well, it would be better to simply burn that natural gas or use that electricity in EVs.
2) There is no hydrogen distribution infrastructure. But every house does already have a source of electricity.
3) Hydrogen is very difficult to store and transport. It is the smallest element and thus leaks through even very small holes. And great pressures are needed to store a reasonably quantity.
4) Fuel cells are still expensive and use expensive previous metals. Fuel cell experts Ballard Power abandoned the mobile fuel cell market . . . that should tell you something.
The less money we waste on the hydrogen pipe dream, the better
On Nov 03 12:07 PM GhostOfSpec wrote:
> Hydrogen is a loser technology in the near-term future. Steven Chu
> is completely correct. There are WAY too many problems:
> 1) There are no hydrogen mines or wells. Hydrogen is an energy storage
> system not a source. To create hydrogen we reform natural gas or
> do electrolysis of water. Well, it would be better to simply burn
> that natural gas or use that electricity in EVs.
> 2) There is no hydrogen distribution infrastructure. But every house
> does already have a source of electricity.
> 3) Hydrogen is very difficult to store and transport. It is the smallest
> element and thus leaks through even very small holes. And great pressures
> are needed to store a reasonably quantity.
> 4) Fuel cells are still expensive and use expensive previous metals.
> Fuel cell experts Ballard Power abandoned the mobile fuel cell market
> . . . that should tell you something.
>
> The less money we waste on the hydrogen pipe dream, the better
Well it's just a possibility worth to comment here
Rgds.
On Nov 03 12:07 PM GhostOfSpec wrote:
> Hydrogen is a loser technology in the near-term future. Steven Chu
> is completely correct. There are WAY too many problems:
> 1) There are no hydrogen mines or wells. Hydrogen is an energy storage
> system not a source. To create hydrogen we reform natural gas or
> do electrolysis of water. Well, it would be better to simply burn
> that natural gas or use that electricity in EVs.
> 2) There is no hydrogen distribution infrastructure. But every house
> does already have a source of electricity.
> 3) Hydrogen is very difficult to store and transport. It is the smallest
> element and thus leaks through even very small holes. And great pressures
> are needed to store a reasonably quantity.
> 4) Fuel cells are still expensive and use expensive previous metals.
> Fuel cell experts Ballard Power abandoned the mobile fuel cell market
> . . . that should tell you something.
>
> The less money we waste on the hydrogen pipe dream, the better
On Nov 04 07:39 AM a fat panda wrote:
> We are going to alt-energy cars to go-green - to save the environment.
> I haven't the slightest idea about the technology, but I do have
> a question : what are you going to do with the spent batteries? This
> is a question. Seriously for once I am not being sarcastic.
On Nov 03 10:26 PM 123andy wrote:
> If you have natural gas in your house you can make H2 by a simple
> reformer.
>
The lithium-ion batteries retain 70% to 80% of their residual capacity, even after their average lifetime of 10 years in an electric car. They are initially recycled as solar or wind power storage and eventually recycled for their elements.
On Nov 04 07:39 AM a fat panda wrote:
> We are going to alt-energy cars to go-green - to save the environment.
> I haven't the slightest idea about the technology, but I do have
> a question : what are you going to do with the spent batteries? This
> is a question. Seriously for once I am not being sarcastic.
"There are no insights on immediate gratification investment strategies to be gleaned from this article."
One immediate gratification from a hydrogen economy is the precious metal palladium, and that immediately leads to Montana based Stillwater Mining, SWC.
What is the connection between President Bush, President Putin, Hydrogen Economy and their secret deal on a palladium mine? Read this article:
www.motherjones.com/en...
That one article triggered my interest in palladium and then I discovered not only hydrogen has something to do with palladium. The isotope, deuterium, has even much more to do with palladium. And deuterium is our energy future, due to a new science called Cold Fusion, now known as condensed matter nuclear reactions.
CBS 60 Minutes aired a program on Cold Fusion on April 19, 2009, which is a must watch. Follow the link here to watch the CBS program on Cold Fusion:
stockology.blogspot.co...
seekingalpha.com/autho...
This is just one of the reasons that I absolutely like the precious metal palladium. I dedicate 95% of my 401K on one mining company, SWC, because of the huge potential of palladium in a deuterium related application, Cold Fusion. You know deuterium is the isotope of hydrogen.
On Nov 04 09:56 AM tekram wrote:
> No such thing as a simple H2 reformer. It is a dirty (CO, CO2 )low
> efficient, high energy process. The resulting impure hydrogen is
> unusable as fuel cell fuel.
>
> On Nov 03 10:26 PM 123andy wrote:
- H2 is an energy carrier - not a fuel
- Fuel cell cars are EVs too (need to differentiate between BEV and Fuel cell cars)
- There are simple natural gas driven cars running all over the world. You don't need an expensive highly ineffecient way to convert that first to H2 and then use a H2 fuel cell.
- H2 is the smallest element. It simply leaks out of solid metal containers.
- For a given starting kwh of energy a battery operated EV is 4x more efficient than a H2 fuel cell car. Do we want to put up 4x the number of nuclear power plants ?
On Nov 04 10:18 AM Mark Anthony wrote:
> Mr. Clinton you said:
> "There are no insights on immediate gratification investment strategies
> to be gleaned from this article."
>
> One immediate gratification from a hydrogen economy is the precious
> metal palladium, and that immediately leads to Montana based Stillwater
> Mining, SWC.
>
> What is the connection between President Bush, President Putin, Hydrogen
> Economy and their secret deal on a palladium mine? Read this article:
>
> www.motherjones.com/en...
>
>
> That one article triggered my interest in palladium and then I discovered
> not only hydrogen has something to do with palladium. The isotope,
> deuterium, has even much more to do with palladium. And deuterium
> is our energy future, due to a new science called Cold Fusion, now
> known as condensed matter nuclear reactions.
>
> CBS 60 Minutes aired a program on Cold Fusion on April 19, 2009,
> which is a must watch. Follow the link here to watch the CBS program
> on Cold Fusion:
> stockology.blogspot.co...
>
>
> seekingalpha.com/autho...
i really really appreciate your comments on this topic. it has been quite enlightening and i'm sure quite beneficial to other readers.
my schedule does not permit me to respond to some of these comments today (responsibilities of being an investment advisor compete jealously with my interests in blogging)...
note that i have an interview with a CEO from a infrastructure component of the H2 developing industry and plan to share this with readers in a post in the very near future (i.e. as soon as i get time)
keep the comments coming... investing public needs to understand the issues more... unfortunately it doesn't get enough coverage in the media...
>> FCVs take 4x's the energy to go the same distance
> in the same size vehicle as an EV.
According to research, FCVs and BEVs are equally as efficient. See www.cafcp.org/low-carb...
> Not only that but (FCVs) cost far more than a battery car.
When they are for sale, FCVs will be competitive with today's hybrids.
> Notice H2 people never bother to mention H2, compression or storage container costs?
According to DOE, in 2003 cost of H2 storage on a vehicles was a net $4/kWh. In 2005, the fuel cost was $3 gge (untaxed) and includes liquefaction, compression, regeneration.
www1.eere.energy.gov/h...
>H2 is the smallest element. It simply leaks out of solid metal containers.
H2 has been used for decades in manufacturing and food processing. It's transported by pipeline, rail, barge and truck all over the use. It's used to power the Space Shuttle, submarines and ocean-going freighters. H2 is transported and stored in annodized metals that do not leak. All fuel cell vehicles store it as a compressed gas.
>Hydrogen can be purified using the palladium metal.
Sort of. The fuel cells themselves use a catalyst of platinum and "platinum metals groups." All PMGs are expensive and the original fuel cells used loads of PMGs. GM recently announced that their new fuel cell stack uses about the same amount of PMG as a catalytic converter. (Almost all newly mined PMGs are used in jewelry. Industrial PMG is almost all recycled metal.)
Chris White
California Fuel Cell Partnership
We've been using hydrogen commercially for decades and produce millions of tonnes every year. Most people don't know this because it's done safely and therefore doesn't appear in the press. We absolutely need electric vehicles and the full range of options will include batteries and fuel cells.
Research on Hydrogen FCs will find us a cheaper alternative to precious metal fuel cell stacks, and a better storage system than compression. Go you PhDs and garage inventors! (and when you do, I'll be first in the queue to buy shares in your company).
Personally, I'm thinking of designing a system built to capture all the fruitless hot air generated recently on the environment and using that as an energy source.
www.nrel.gov/docs/fy07...
Thank you Chris at CaFCP for clearing up some of the mis-perceptions surrounding hydrogen.