Is Lihua International Cooking Its Books? Part III

In my previous article, I discussed several problems of Lihua International (LIWA): Unusual insider share unlock, discrepancies of 2008 revenue between its SEC filings and local media, discrepancies of 2008 raw material purchase from Fushi Copperweld (FSIN), dramatic increase of unit sale price of CCA, its main product, and dramatic reduction of account receivable days and account payable days.

On Friday morning, Fushi Copperweld (which I will hereafter refer to as Fushi) released its earning report for the third quarter, which helped shed more lights onto Lihua's potential accounting fraud.

Fushi is special to Lihua because they are in the same sector and they sell to the same market, in which Fushi is the industry leader. Fushi is one of the first in China to have started Copper Clad Aluminum (CCA) wire business, and it is the largest by far. Lihua does not have the capability to clad copper over aluminum. Instead, it purchases CCA wires from other manufacturers, the largest supplier being Fushi, and draws them thinner. In some cases, paint is applied to the finished products for use in manufacturing electric magnets. From the beginning of 2009, Lihua entered a low margin scrap copper business. Fushi is both a peer and the largest supplier of Lihua International, which makes the comparison of the two apple to apple.

Fushi disappointed its investors. For the third quarter, Fushi's revenue decreased 25% compared to the same period in 2008. The analyst consensus was $55.4 million, a 13% drop, but Fushi only made $47.7 million.

According to the management, "the decline was driven primarily by a decrease in average selling price (21.6%) resulting from lower raw material prices." But what price is the management talking about? On a consolidated basis, Fushi saw 3.7% decline in output, which means 10,100 (2008 Q3 output) x (1-3.7%) = 9,726 tons and $4,904 per ton. In my previous article, my calculation shows that the selling price of Lihua for the first half of 2009 was $14,360 per ton. Hmm... Are these two companies truly in the same industry?

Well, let's dig further. As in my previous articles, I will organize the findings in sub-sections.

A. Significant Difference of CCA Unit Sale Price between Lihua and Fushi

To compare apple to apple, I compared the unit sale price of CCA, the main product for both companies. For Lihua, it means that the new business of scape copper is not included; for Fushi, it means non-China located sites are excluded since they are mostly on Copper Clad Steel (CCS) business. Fortunately, all the supporting data can be found in SEC filings for both companies.

Since the beginning of 2009, Fushi saw its unit sale price compressed due to the lower copper price. However, Lihua's sale price has been defying the gravity. In the second quarter, its unit sale price increased to a jaw-dropping $16,958 per ton, nearly 300% premium over $4,349 per ton of Fushi Dalian.

There are quite a few problems associated with this huge difference, knowing that the products are essentially the same with different thickness and the raw materials of Lihua is the finished product of Fushi.

1. How can wire drawing create 300% margin?
2. How can CCA price of Lihua not following the margin-plus pricing scheme of the wiring industry?
3. Why is Fushi not adding some drawing machine to extract the profit of Lihua if this is such a lucrative business?
4. WHAT is the raw materials of Lihua anyway? The CCA raw material cost was $18.2 million for the second quarter. With the production 1,545 tons, the unit raw material cost was $11,845 per ton. What is this kind of material? It certainly does not look like anything Fushi manufactures.

B. Significant Difference in AR Days between Lihua and Fushi

Though the two companies are in the same sector, their AR days difference makes one feel like that they are NOT serving the same market.

AR days is the average days customers pays off the bill of the company. Many accounting Shenanigan such as channel stuffing and irregular revenue recognition leak their trace in AR days because AR days link the revenue with the balance sheet and the balance sheet, as its name suggests, does need to be BALANCED. It is also much easier to relax the account receivable collection than tightening the collection because tightening collection typically causes customer loss.

For the last quarter, Fushi further relaxed its bill collection to retain their customers in face of lower utilization of its capacity. Quoted from their earning release:

Accounts receivables at September 30, 2009 were $69.1 million compared to $49.8 million on December 31, 2008, an increase of 38.8%. This increase is primarily a result of extended credit terms in 2009 to certain credible customers that have long-standing business relationships with us in order to capture increased market share.

While Fushi is relaxing the account receivable collection, Lihua is certainly NOT living on THIS earth -- it was able to grow its revenue at full capacity without adding proportional account receivable. The numbers suggest that customers have been flocking into Lihua, paying them cash to buy products 4 times as expensive as they would from Fushi and ignoring the generous pricing and payment terms from Fushi.

C. Significant Difference between Lihua AP Days and Fushi AR Days

Due to the well established supplier/customer relationship between Fushi and Lihua, the payment period of Lihua paying TO Fushi is the exact same payment period of Fushi receiving FROM Lihua. Thus we should expect some positive correlation between Lihua's AP days and Fushi's AR days. Yet we see that these two are negatively correlated from the following graph.

It is especially interesting to look at year 2008, in which Lihua buys 46.5% of its raw materials from Fushi. (For more detailed relationship link, refer to my previous post)

Its prospectus states that "For each of the fiscal years ended December 31, 2006, 2007 and 2008, and the three months ended June 30, 2009 our five largest suppliers accounted for 100% of our total purchases, and our single largest supplier accounted for 31.9%, 26.8%, 46.5% and 21.1% of our total purchases, respectively." (page 70)

In year 2008, Fushi's AR days is 82 days and Lihua's AP days is 18 days. Even if we assume that Lihua pays all other suppliers cash on delivery, Lihua's AP days would be 82 x 46.5% = 38 days, far more than the 18 days calculated.

========

Fushi is under the pressure of the economy slowdown: Its revenue did not make the expectation and the utilization ratio of the Dalian facility dropped from 88% in the second quarter to 78.6% in the third quarter.

Lihua, Fushi's downstream wire drawing firm, however, is able to get away with selling the market finer wires at a quadrupled price with 100% utilization of capacity up to the second quarter.

Well, maybe Fushi investors should fire all the management in face of the great "achievement" of Lihua. Their "faults" include:

• They could not shorten the account receivable days like Lihua did. It is huge saving on the capital if they do.
• They sold raw materials to Lihua only to allow Lihua to make 300% margin on it OR They sold raw materials actually at more than $11,000 per ton but reported less than $5,000 per ton.
• They cannot sell their products at $16,958 per ton, like Lihua did.
• They "grossly overlooked" how "lucrative" buying more wire drawing machines can be.

Friday is a sorrowful day for Fushi -- its stock dropped 3.5% on the news, making its market cap $186 million. It suffered a 26% drop in a month. Maybe the Fushi management should learn how to fabricate fairy tales from Lihua, whose market cap is now standing at $222 million. What a reward.

All my calculations are show in the following screenshot. The data are all from SEC filings. Click to enlarge.

Disclosure: Author is short LIWA and has no position in FSIN.

Comments

[User 425961]

thank you for another informative post, but here are your problems

1. as far as the a/r FSIN says in their financials they are having problems collecting.
2. Both companies are in differnet segments. FSIN makes more industrial infrastructure products, and LIWA is more focused on the appliance and consumer electronic segments.
3. FSIN identifys the consumer products as a more profitable segment, and mentions that it is looking at opportunities to enter this segment
4. the tonage and selling price of the tonage are purely product driven in simple terms: a 2x10x16 piece of wood is 11.00, but a 2x2x16 =3.75, you get 5 pices from a 2x10 = 18.75. So it weighs the same, is from the same product. Raw material costs the same, but a differnet sales price. LIWA from one ton on 1000 ft wire can draw it to 4000 ft. sales price per ton goes up. raw material costs go down.
5. I agree in time LIWA'S margins should go down as more people enter it, perhaps that is why they are diversifying into recycled copper, and are going to make thin strand copper from it.
6. The walmarts of the world by forceing down prices for consumers, and with coppers rapid price increases. Alot of consumer product companies " toy,electronic,etc" are rapidly choosing Copper clad instead of copper. So this market is growing fast and is getting BIGGER, by the day....

good luck to all

2009 Nov 08 09:24 AM

[User 425961]

Also in infrastructure companies " construction, construction supply,..etc. These companies are highley leveraged and require bank financing to fund projects..ie construction loans. Liwa's customer generally have batter balance sheets are not as leveraged and the accounting payments are on different schedules. It is just the nature of the business segments.. there is alot of US industries like this...

also on the tonnage difference.. they are probably talking about input tons instead of out put tons GAAP allows this.

I am almost positive that the wire is sold in feet(meters) not tons.
or spool price, but each machine can strand wire into many diff sizes and it is not commodity pricing,because some it coated, etc..

good luck

2009 Nov 08 11:26 AM

[bump5]

If the author would time his articles not to coincide with the stock price sitting at support just above a previous large gap up it would appear less like the author was attempting to push the stock price over the ledge.

2009 Nov 08 04:48 PM

[bump5]

Hang seng up. Although shanghai index went down a few .01ths%, copper, elect motor manufacture, auto parts, industrials all went up last night. Bad news and bad timing for anyone that was shorting. I hope reality is the more influential factor in the next couple of days until real info comes out.

2009 Nov 09 03:09 AM

[Joeyman]

There are a ton of Chinese companies that list in the US that end up being complete frauds. Even the auditors or bank officers are bribed.
Why in the world if you are a real Chinese business would you list in the United States, except if you want to screw a bunch of dumb foreign investors.

See China Expert Technology, China Energy Savings and many others for the perils of investing in Chinese companies. The country has a disgustingly unethical culture.

2009 Nov 09 04:13 PM

[stockgod]

lol @chimney. Next you should do a comparison on why Apple Computers defies gravity by selling PCs to consumers for much higher margins than HP, Dell, and everyone else! You can do the same stupid charts, compare companies in similar industries, and totally go short Apple.

When you're finished that, you can compare Louis Vuitton to Club Monaco handbags. The fact that Louis Vuitton is selling the same square footage of material for 100x more tells me they're cooking their books too based on your shitty analysis.

So my your point? You're comparing two completely different companies who sell different products to different customers, run by different management teams with different visions - you're openly accusing one of those companies of cooking their books.

This is great stuff Chimney, keep it up it's entertaining. I agree there are Chinese companies that are scams, just like there are American, Canadian, and British companies that are all scams...

Either you know something and someone is feeding you bad information, or you're talking out of your ass. Based on what I'm looking at you're an idiot who should stay in grad school a little longer.

I only hope after the company announces their numbers that they sue the crap out of you for libel. You'll be broke covering your shorts, and you'll need a lawyer.

Poetic justice I suppose. We'll see what happens.

2009 Nov 09 11:47 PM

[xzhou25]

haha. someone's going broke..we'll see who it's gonna be.

2009 Nov 10 06:48 PM

[xzhou25]

xxx (10:53:17 PM):
朱小姐吗？
Hi, is it Ms. Zhu
dylihua628 (10:54:03 PM):
你好！请问有什么可以帮忙的吧
Hi, what can I do for you?
xxx (10:55:06 PM):
对，我最近正在寻找一家长期可以依靠的铜包铝线...
不知道你是否可以给我介绍一些信息，你的产品和...
Yeh, I'm currently looking for a company that we can rely on for long-term CCA wire supplies. Your company seems to be of decent size. I'm wondering if you could provide me with some information, what kind of advantage do you have compared to your competitors.
dylihua628 (10:56:39 PM):
我司现在是以铜线为主，铜包铝的话只是附属了
因为国家现在很多对铜包铝的管制
Our company has shifted our focus to copper wire now, CCA is only a peripheral product for us now because of governmental regulations.

XXX (10:57:58 PM):
铜线的价格应该比铜包铝的价格高吧？你们的产量...
Well, doesn't copper wire cost more than CCA? how about production? would delivery be a problem?
dylihua628 (11:01:11 PM):
我们每天产量50-100吨吧
We produce 50-100 tons daily
xxx (11:04:42 PM):
你是指铜线还是铜包铝线？
Is it copper wire or CCA
dylihua628 (11:05:57 PM):
铜线
铜包铝现在是有订单就生产，而且是达到起生产量才做
Copper wire. We only manufacture CCA when we have orders and only do so when we have a big enough order.
xxx (11:07:47 PM):
恩，明白了。 你们低氧铜线的价位在什么位置
Ok, I see. What about the prices for your low oxygen copper wire.
dylihua628 (11:08:23 PM):
今天价格还没出来
要到11.40左右
你是要用来生产？
the price is not out yet, blah blah
xxx(11:10:34 PM):
电机生产。。应该算是直接使用
你们做加工么？
yeh, we need to use it directly. do you work on refining?
dylihua628 (11:11:47 PM):
我们一般是不加工的
we typically don't
xxx (11:13:17 PM):
那你们直接出售的产品是什么规格呢？
what are the specs of your products
dylihua628 (11:13:27 PM):
但现在很多电机厂，高要求的都在用铜漆包线了
130 155 180这些常用的各种漆膜都有货的
A lot of companies need specific wires..we have them..blah blah
xxx (11:15:08 PM):
恩，但是我看到你们产品只有铜包铝漆包线
我想知道你下你们大概的价位，这样我可以比较一...
I see. but I only see CCA as your product. I want to know the prices roughly so that I could compare with the information I have.
dylihua628 (11:16:18 PM):
可能没有及时更新吧
现在铜包铝的话，可能在45左右
看规格吧
越细越贵
It might be because we haven't updated the website yet. For CCA, its roughly 45RMB per KG..(45,000 per ton=7,000 USD). depending on the specs, the thinner the more expensive.
xxx (11:17:12 PM):
恩，这个当然。你们需要多少吨才开始生产呢？
Of course. Well, how many tons would u start manufacturing?
dylihua628 (11:18:23 PM):
看你的规格了
小的1吨
大的在2-3吨
Depends on the specs. We can start for small ones if you need 1 ton, larger ones we need 2-3 tons.
xxx (11:19:09 PM):
现在难道没有人定铜包铝了么？我也没有看到什么...
Nobody wants CCA anymore? I didn't see any governmental regulations.
dylihua628 (11:20:45 PM):
要的人现在很少很少
Very very few people want it nowadays.
xxx (11:22:25 PM):
我目前所需要的量可能不够你们开机。。我对具体... 但是我老板做了挺久的。 她前几天还叫我调查一下。。说今年4月份的时候...
Blah blah...yeh, we might need to buy it.
dylihua628 (11:23:21 PM):
多少量
How much?

The rest of the information isn't that helpful. But from the above information, the CCA should not be part of their revenue, at least on their 3rd quarter. its gross margin on refined copper wire is less than 10%....This company's stock is in precarious situation..and we will see how they are going to report for the 3rd quarter. But I think the information above is probably much truer than what they had reported. All the short bashers, go back and read the statements, understand their businesses and see if the arguments make sense. A copy of this will go to the SEC and I think the information is strong enough in showing that their reporting is grossly falsified.

2009 Nov 10 10:42 PM

[stockgod]

aaahahahahahahha. Sucks to be short I guess. You're basically screwed. Your research is a joke.

Your own words basically show how much of a joke this entire series of "articles" is: "Copper wire. We only manufacture CCA when we have orders and only do so when we have a big enough order."

Read: "Big enough order".

Jackass. Stay short, please. We need the jet fuel to get to the moon.

2009 Nov 11 12:23 AM

[bump5]

When the earnings report comes out, the sec will be officially notified of everything. That's the purpose of the report! Then you will have official statements, signed and sworn to by Lihua, to work with or against.

The apples and oranges that have been misrepresented as being equal, the local TV or radio show, or the other amatuer investigative journalistic attempts are not worthy of being the base for an intelligent, competant research.

Is anybody really supposed to believe the validity of this "edited, supposed transcript excerpt" of yours?
How do we call your bluff and have you verify that you are officially sending this to the sec? And how do we verify how quickly they toss it (if you really would send it) in the crank mail trash bin?

Directing people to where to waste thier time researching fictional facts and inconclusive bits of data is a very basic shorting diversionary tactic. Please don't waste your time following a shorts supposed leads.

P.S. Other reputable stock market players, there is no need to get personal, or take it personal. It only plays into their hand. It's a short strategy to distract you, waste your time and make your opinion look a little less credible. Do your own dd. Don't let them direct your movements, actions or decisions.

2009 Nov 11 01:11 AM

[xzhou25]

Nobody should be taking this personal..Some amateurs apparently are getting a bit personal here. I'm only calling for logic..there are thousands of shares we could be shorting everyday, but this is a particularly good short because of all the evidence presented above. While people don't have to believe in what I have done, I am merely sending out a piece of information that I think people should be aware of. I do not understand why all the people arguing for longs here cannot give an explanation to the questions the author raised. It is obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of accounting to see that their revenue numbers just do not add up. Comparing their revenue during the first half of 2008 and first half of 2009, it has gone up 90% on the same volume of production. It says it prices its product at a discount to copper price, but everyone knows average copper price is much lower during the first half of 2009 than the first half of 2008. How did they achieve the revenue jump on the same volume when price should have gone down theoretically? Also, when you think about their margin; the product that they base most of their margin on is the CCA. And according to my information, which you do not have to believe, CCA is not a huge part of their production anymore. Instead of saying what we did isn't right, why couldn't you point out which part of the analysis is flawed? Instead of basing us as shorts trying to profit, why don't you think about the reasons that you are staying long and given the information, should you stay long? I do have an incentive to drive the price of LIWA down. But it isn't because I'm a shameless greedy person; it's because people shouldn't be buying a stock that reports false revenue or profitability. At least people who would have bought the stock outright would see the discussion and make their own judgement before taking action. That's the whole point.

2009 Nov 11 01:29 AM

[bump5]

There is not "evidence presented above". Only someone's' questions about why this doesn't seem to add up to them.

It is not any of the people arguing for longs responsibility to "give an explanation to the questions the author raised". If he really wanted answers he would do a proper job of investigative journalism. Go to the places where answers (not more questions and things that just don't sound right to him and his buddies) and talk to the people with the answers. Not plaster his "not knowing but it sure seems like" in a public forum.

The official earnings are coming out in a couple of days. Any inconclusive arguments with unverified, loosely connected (if connected at all) data and bits of information that are put out in the remaining few days are not being put out here for the poor misguided longs' benefit or to save the longs from their foolish mistakes, as both of the "self ordained noble and caring" shorts are saying. It will be for one purpose only.

xzhou25 - "I do have an incentive to drive the price of LIWA down".

2009 Nov 11 03:22 AM

[xzhou25]

"There is not "evidence presented above". Only someone's' questions about why this doesn't seem to add up to them."
The numbers are crystal clear and they speak for themselves..I did not fabricate any information..it all came straight from its own statements.

If all you have to say is the basic accounting I did up there is misguided, I'm gonna refrain from arguing further because you are making no contribution. It doesn't matter what my incentive is because I am not making anything up. I can say with complete confidence that all the info up there is true while you can make your own judgement.

It's not that it sure seems like the numbers do not add up; the numbers do not add up. Come on, do the calculation yourself.

This will be my last post in response to anything from you unless I see something constructive coming out. Good luck.

2009 Nov 11 08:05 AM

[Chimin Sang]

xzhou,

Thanks for your information. I have other similar information I have not included in my articles, which are focused on accounting analysis.

If you are interested in contacting me personally, forward your information through contributor relationship of seekingalpha. Thanks.

2009 Nov 11 08:10 AM

[stockgod]

Just keep adding fuel to the fire please. You are right, please continue to short the stock. Where's part 4???

2009 Nov 11 09:45 AM

[stockgod]

Excuse me, but "nobody should be taking this personal" --- what a pile of crap. Have you read this garbage? Read it again. The author of this "article" is accusing the company of fraud openly with no good reason. His methodology is a joke. Seems to me he's still in business school and has alot to learn.

I do thank Chimney though, because if not for him I wouldn't have added 15,000 more shares in the 6's. Thanks.


On Nov 11 01:29 AM xzhou25 wrote:

> Nobody should be taking this personal..Some amateurs apparently are
> getting a bit personal here. I'm only calling for logic..there are
> thousands of shares we could be shorting everyday, but this is a
> particularly good short because of all the evidence presented above.
> While people don't have to believe in what I have done, I am merely
> sending out a piece of information that I think people should be
> aware of. I do not understand why all the people arguing for longs
> here cannot give an explanation to the questions the author raised.
> It is obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of accounting to see
> that their revenue numbers just do not add up. Comparing their revenue
> during the first half of 2008 and first half of 2009, it has gone
> up 90% on the same volume of production. It says it prices its product
> at a discount to copper price, but everyone knows average copper
> price is much lower during the first half of 2009 than the first
> half of 2008. How did they achieve the revenue jump on the same volume
> when price should have gone down theoretically? Also, when you think
> about their margin; the product that they base most of their margin
> on is the CCA. And according to my information, which you do not
> have to believe, CCA is not a huge part of their production anymore.
> Instead of saying what we did isn't right, why couldn't you point
> out which part of the analysis is flawed? Instead of basing us as
> shorts trying to profit, why don't you think about the reasons that
> you are staying long and given the information, should you stay long?
> I do have an incentive to drive the price of LIWA down. But it isn't
> because I'm a shameless greedy person; it's because people shouldn't
> be buying a stock that reports false revenue or profitability. At
> least people who would have bought the stock outright would see the
> discussion and make their own judgement before taking action. That's
> the whole point.

2009 Nov 11 10:05 AM

[stockgod]

Chimney, I apologize for calling you a loser, piece of garbage, etc etc. You really are fantastic. Thanks to your analysis I made a ton of money on your short fuel. Here's a thank you card from the bottom of my heart.

0.ly/h1V

2009 Nov 11 02:42 PM

[Steven R. Chapski]

Mr. Sang,

I would like to know your response to LIWA's 3rd quarter 10-Q filed on Monday, November 16. In the 10-Q, the company indicated that CCA wire sales that you noted are actually CCA and copper wire sales. On page 36 of the 10-Q, they indicate that the average price per ton for CCA wire was $6,475 and $6,741 for the three months ended September 30, 2009 and June 30, 2009, respectively. These figures seem to refute your claim that there is "significant difference of CCA unit sale price between Lihua and Fushi."

Thanks,
Steve Chapski


On Nov 11 08:10 AM Chimin Sang wrote:

> xzhou,
>
> Thanks for your information. I have other similar information I have
> not included in my articles, which are focused on accounting analysis.
>
>
> If you are interested in contacting me personally, forward your information
> through contributor relationship of seekingalpha. Thanks.

2009 Nov 18 10:09 AM

[Chimin Sang]

Hi Steve,

The most recent Lihua's report does fix one problem that I had pointed out about ASP. Their prospectus was not clear in indicating the sales of 'CCA wire' include 'CCA wire and copper wire'.

That being said, my suspicion on Lihua is not off. All my other points are still valid, including the inconsistencies of CEO's claim on revenue, discrepancies in its transaction amount with Fushi, and AR days/AP days unrealistic in this industry.

Such short AR days (DSO) is really striking. With the wire business gross margin 30% and copper rod business margin 10%, such low DSO is making this business super lucrative. Do you want to believe such a company exists in a commodity business in China with hundreds of competitors if not thousands? Your call.

I would suggest you talk to companies in this field in China if you are serious. You can find many of them through alibaba.com.


On Nov 18 10:09 AM Steven R. Chapski wrote:

> Mr. Sang,
>
> I would like to know your response to LIWA's 3rd quarter 10-Q filed
> on Monday, November 16. In the 10-Q, the company indicated that CCA
> wire sales that you noted are actually CCA and copper wire sales.
> On page 36 of the 10-Q, they indicate that the average price per
> ton for CCA wire was $6,475 and $6,741 for the three months ended
> September 30, 2009 and June 30, 2009, respectively. These figures
> seem to refute your claim that there is "significant difference of
> CCA unit sale price between Lihua and Fushi."
>
> Thanks,
> Steve Chapski

2009 Nov 23 11:53 AM

[Steven R. Chapski]

Chimin,

Is there any way to compare LIWA's financial statements filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission with their financial statements filed with the China State Administration for Industry and Commerce? This comparison is what Manuel Asensio and Waldo Mushman did with China Sky One Medical Inc.
(seekingalpha.com/artic...).

Thanks,
Steve Chapski

On Nov 23 11:53 AM Chimin Sang wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> The most recent Lihua's report does fix one problem that I had pointed
> out about ASP. Their prospectus was not clear in indicating the sales
> of 'CCA wire' include 'CCA wire and copper wire'.
>
> That being said, my suspicion on Lihua is not off. All my other points
> are still valid, including the inconsistencies of CEO's claim on
> revenue, discrepancies in its transaction amount with Fushi, and
> AR days/AP days unrealistic in this industry.
>
> Such short AR days (DSO) is really striking. With the wire business
> gross margin 30% and copper rod business margin 10%, such low DSO
> is making this business super lucrative. Do you want to believe such
> a company exists in a commodity business in China with hundreds of
> competitors if not thousands? Your call.
>
> I would suggest you talk to companies in this field in China if you
> are serious. You can find many of them through alibaba.com.

2009 Nov 26 09:13 AM