Broadcom Corp. (BRCM) UBS Global Technology Conference Transcript November 20, 2013 5:45 PM ET
Michael Hurlston - Executive Vice President, Worldwide Sales
Sameer Desai - Investor Relations
Steven Chin - UBS
Steven Chin - UBS
Okay. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Steven Chin and I'm one of the Semiconductor Analyst here at UBS. It’s my pleasure to introduce Broadcom Corporation for this next session. And from Broadcom today we have Michael Hurlston who is the Executive Vice President, sorry, of Worldwide Sales, and also from Investor Relations, we have Sameer Desai. The format today will be a fireside chat and we will have plenty time for some Q&A from the audience as well.
Where is the fire?
Steven Chin - UBS
So welcome Michael and I know you are no stranger to our UBS events. But this definitely first time as you are at our conference.
Yeah. Thank you very much.
Steven Chin - UBS
Yeah. So, first off, what I wanted to cover is, one that’s most topical to a lot of investors, lot of -- obviously a lot of change happened in the wireless industry, whether it’s Samsung taking out potentially in the architectural licensing in the -- from arm, your acquisition of Renesas Technology assets, consolidation in terms of market share in premium smartphones.
I just wanted to get your latest take on the Broadcom view of the world from the wireless the perspective. What technologies whether its original, organic, baseband modem and (inaudible) technology, while it’s the new Renesas Technology that you -- which techniques you are going after whether it’s low, mid-end or high-end, you can start from there?
Yeah. I think that in general what we did with this acquisition of the Renesas asset was accelerate our time to market on LTE. We had a well-documented internal organic effort and I think that we talked about having revenue at the end of 2014. Based on that organic effort which was a high-end development, was really targeting the high-end of the smartphone market as it was a FIN modem that was relatively feature-rich than modem supporting a lot of the different advance features in LTE.
And what we wanted to do is really de-risk our revenue plan. So what we went out and did was acquired this asset from Renesas that has effectively a production worthy modem.
Now this particular modem is a cellular modem with an applications processor with integrated graphics and our apps and things like that, that is more targeted at the low-end of the market. There is a set of products that they effectively finished one, dual-core that we’ve talked about accelerating our roadmap -- our revenue profile into the first quarter of 2014.
And then the second product that we’ve talked about that is a quad core that we would have the samples out in the middle of the year with revenue toward the end of the year. Those are all Renesas really turnkey without Broadcom IP associated with it.
So from time to market perspective and a revenue ramp, we’ve effectively pulled in by arguably two to three quarters with this move. And then furthermore it’s allowed us to bifurcate and continue to develop and integrate at the high-end with our organic asset which we’re going to get go do and open up now a set of opportunity across the entire portfolio cellular.
But to answer your question, I mean, it -- the original, the initial frost is more at the low-end of the market and I think that we can very aggressive in terms of attacking and by building a foundation around some new price points at the bottom end of the LTE market.
Steven Chin - UBS
Great. As you started to integrate that acquisition in your -- you have the better understanding of key technology and the cost structure behind that product. Are there any surprising there positive or negative and I guess, how does that position Broadcom from maybe a price perspective and the low-end and also the mainstream portion of these smartphone markets?
Yeah. I know, I think that as we’ve dug into it, the -- we found that modem itself is very, very cost competitive. We think its really does sit well in this low-end segment and it's a product that frankly gives us some optimism that we’re going to able to compete effectively not only now but forward looking.
Now it’s a very interesting architecture and one that lend itself to a smaller die size and one that we think is going to scale across multiple platforms from high to low. So it's been a positive surprise in that regard.
And then in terms of the actual integration, obviously, there's a lot of complexity when you bring two teams together. Again, I think no real surprises in that regard. It’s a challenge. I think, we’ve been consistent in talking to that, but it's not been the surprise.
And the good news is the execution path of both teams, both the Broadcom internal team and the Renesas team has continued on our predictable vectors and the vectors that we’ve thought that we’re going to hit on production milestones, things like that.
Steven Chin - UBS
As you’ve traveled and visit with customers, what’s the feedback been so far, now that Broadcom has the way behind the Renesas Technology. Have there been new design wins frost or have there been prior wins that are now back in motion and you mentioned Q1 as the timeframe where you will start recognize revenue, so any kind of preliminary expectation you can provide some color on?
Yeah. I mean, I think, in general, the topline customers have been very excited. There is certainly a desire to, number one, drive the cost point of LTE down and I think that, we can be very aggressive in terms of establishing of good low-end solid foundation, the low-end.
But more importantly, having choice alternatives to the current supplier and I think that the customer base has been very, very excited, we have a historic customer base and we been able to sort of expand beyond that in terms of our customer conversation because people will come to us and really driven inquiries around being able to work with us on LTE.
So I think it’s too early to call design wins and things like that. But certainly from our perspective, we have line of site now to be able to call revenue in Q1. I think that there is obviously very serious engagements that are on slides and engagements that we think we’re going to ultimately result in material revenue in first quarter.
Steven Chin - UBS
Okay. Just going to the most recent earnings results now, I think what surprises that came up was the level of R&D that the Broadcom will be still putting into the wireless business, even though you are turning some headcount both internally and also from the new acquisition?
Historically, I think, your track record speaks quite positively to this update R&D investment periods which are usually followed by some pretty strong revenue growth and earnings outperformance several quarters afterwards. Obviously, each time is different, product wise and the competitive environment. Can you talk about some of the puts and takes this time around with this basically second round of investments in wireless and what Broadcom need to do right to hit the target?
Yeah. I think that, we went into this with both eyes open. It is an increase in the investment and I think that we’ve tried to manage that as you correctly called out by doing something to correct our OpEx.
Having said that, I think that any time you bring on a team of this size, the ultimate result is an increase in the OpEx. We expect that’s a payoff. I mean at the end of the day this is a business that we’ve looked at, we looked at, we walked into with both eyes open and we expect it to ultimately payoff and have a positive ROI.
So I think we've all done the calculus, I think there's a lot of naysayers out there. We look at the market. We see a -- we see opportunity. We see room for us to put and I think that as we look at this thing it is in fact an investment and investment that we expect to payoff.
Steven Chin - UBS
On that end, in terms of the ROI that Broadcom is currently looking at for sort of the sweet spot of the market where the volumes are. Obviously, ASPs and margins in the high volume segment that’s -- it's quite low compared to Broadcom historic levels?
Any thoughts on whether or not the longer-term payoff is still attractive in that high volume segment and I guess, sort of the checkpoint that you guys might have and whether to continue investing or maybe using off investment next quarter?
Yeah. I mean, I think that, number one, again, I think we’ve had all the cards in the deck relative to making the decision to invest in the Renesas asset and to buy it and then obviously to continue expand to foster it to make sure that we have something that we can take to production.
So from a calculus prospective again, I don’t think that there has been much in terms of the price, we understand the overall margin of business. We’re obviously players in it today with our 3G business, which is not a small component of our overall mobile and wireless business.
Having said that, again I think from a very positive standpoint, given what we see around the total cost of ownership of the Renesas product, the variable cost in terms of what it could take and what it can bring to market. We are optimistic that there's a fundamental error that leads to positive margins, and a healthy business, again a positive ROI overall across the time horizon.
You asked about checkpoints and things like that. I think that certainly internally we -- we have some road -- some milestones and guide post that we’re looking to. But it’s not something that we’re prepared to talk to you outside of what I shared. I mean I think that there are some clear milestones that we have and we put out there relative to production of the first chip and then production of a Quad core that follows it, but I think internally, we have additional metrics beyond that.
Steven Chin - UBS
Great. Thank you. Going to the other part of wireless business, the connectivity, where you are no stranger to that, 802.11ac, I think some people were little surprise that we’re going to see bigger 11ac upgrade cycle in smartphones, if it is coming holiday season. Any thoughts on what would it take to see the big next big inflection for 11ac and regarding this, also when 11ac will be officially ratified?
Yeah, I think I mean relative to 802.11ac I think that the potential surprise was one customer that ended up not shipping in anything. If you look across the portfolio in the handset area, there was a very significant uptick. I think you had good majority certainly of the tier 1s take it to 11ac and a good majority of that tier 1s shipping on their flagship model.
So although one swing vote didn't go in a direction that would've given more tailwind to 802.11ac, the good news is there is perhaps some room next year to see -- to see some more lift in that particular area. I think ac -- the interesting thing with 11ac is it’s a business that’s beyond just the smartphone, right. We saw very good lift in it 802.11ac for example, in set-top boxes and gateways and PCs.
So I think that overall it's actually been a really, really positive thing for the company. And I think that as we look out into the future ac will be the dominant Wi-Fi technology and Broadcom certainly feels very good about where we stand competitively on 802.11ac. I think it’s created some distance between us and the rest of the competition. So as long as we can continue to ship 802.11ac and drive that into the market, I think that we really feel good about that business.
Steven Chin - UBS
Actually touch on some of the non-mobile products that are pursuing for 11ac opportunity with its tablets, LCD TVs or set-top boxes. Can you talk about what your market share currently is in some of the segments and any competitive pressure that you are seeing there?
I think in general it’s more than we expect. There are so many different segments in wireless and we could go through them one by one. I think that our Wi-Fi market share is high, generally its high I think in the mobile sector. It's been well-documented where we sit from our market share perspective. I think the interesting thing for us is the continued opportunity with Wi-Fi, whether it be in the internet of things.
We see a lot of new opportunity opening up there in at the appliance vertical, in the medical and home health vertical, all of these different things are nascent markets and markets that we think we can introduce wireless connectivity. There has been lot of conversation about the internet of things and I think we’re very well-positioned to take advantage of that.
In general, that might not be in 802.11ac technology, might be something lower in terms of frequency and throughput, but nonetheless its a TAM that people argue about but could be even bigger in the mobile TAM at the end of the day. So that’s an opportunity -- I think that’s an opportunity for us and again, we feel like were very well-positioned there.
Set-top box story is a great story for us because, if you look at our market share in set-top boxes, it’s very strong. In North America and Europe, the share growth or the TAM growth is relatively modest. But what we found is two factors. Number one, we continue to take market share there I think that we’ve been able to move the share needle pretty appreciably over the balance of the last three or four quarters against some of our biggest competitors.
And then secondly, there's been this whole wireless video phenomenon, right. I think AT&T started that with this U-verse service and then everybody else has tried to fastball. And it’s enabled us to add more content, more Broadcom content to these set-top boxes. So the integration in the play of Wi-Fi and the set-top box platforms has been a very good growth driver for us this year.
Steven Chin - UBS
Great. Thanks. Switching gears to the networking business. I think the current quarters guidance forecast and seasonality after two and three quarters with pretty strong growth in the networking and the software business. Have those trends changed much like you guys guided or do you have any other new platforms that may help your opportunities in the near medium term here?
Yeah, I think there’s no change to the guidance. I mean, we were coming off two really, really strong quarters. So, I think that there’s -- Sameer has been talking about it. Just kind of taking a breather in that business, we’ve just had two phenomenal quarters. We are coming off some very choppy times in that particular business. I think we saw the same thing a lot of people were talking about earlier in the year, which was continued slowdown in CapEx to the service providers and a slowdown in general enterprise spending, so we saw that.
Now in the back half of the year, we’ve seen very good benefit from the trend of the data center. So these Web 2.0 customers have been a big lift to the overall ING business and although, we see a pause or taking a breath as Sameer likes to call it in Q4. I think that that’s the general trend line that will continue be positive for us. We think we have competitive advantage there.
I think the whole software defined networks -- software define networking is a really positive trend for us. The disaggregation of software and switch is a very positive trend and to the degree that spending continues in the data center, which at least in the near-term I don't see much slowdown. I think we are going to continue to benefit, so that’s really been the story on our networking business have been, the data center and some of the tailwinds we are seeing there.
Steven Chin - UBS
Just to talk upon the SBN team, I think a couple years ago, Cisco also talked about potentially using more merchant silicon. And I think the SBN team sort of supports that thesis. But can you talk little bit more about, whether or not you’ve seen some of this ASIC business compared over to ASPs from Broadcom, especially in the 10 and 40 gigs switching arena?
I think in general, without getting into dynamics at Cisco in particular. In general, the software defined network is an opportunity for us to convert ASIC Silicon to merchant silicon. I think that there's now value that customers are placing and cost points that you're able to deliver when the box -- there’s a disaggregation between software and the hardware.
So whether that’s traditional opportunity outside the main players in the enterprise and service provider and enabling these white box players, I do think that there's opportunity for us there. I think Cisco and the traditional players going to be continue to be very strong. They are huge components of our business and we are obviously very focused on them. But I think there this whole new sector that’s essentially opening up and that new sector is one that we think we can effectively compete in and one that we can actually drive.
Steven Chin - UBS
And then just one more question for me, before I open it up for live audiences. On the set-top box business in broadband, Cisco in their recent results, they also talked about set-top boxes being an area that they will potential deemphasize?
Can you talk about any long-term outlook on traditional set-top boxes, maybe some thoughts on the newer generation nitpicking, sort of the heavy iron boxes that Time Warner and Comcast has been testing for a while now and what kind of impact 4K UltraHD might have on the set-top business going into next year?
They are all good questions. I think, generally our market share in North America and Europe is very strong in set-top box. So, if one customer is pulling back a bit, typically another customer that’s going to go feel that void is going to be a Broadcom based OEM. So generally speaking, market share trades for us results in money moving from one pocket to another. We feel very strongly about our overall position in that market and our ability to support a whole host of OEMs. So, I think that that’s good.
I think the opportunity for us in set-top, if you look at course of the year, as said we move the needle considerably on market share. The opportunity next year I think is going to be to move into some of these emerging geographies. We have some traction in South America and I think that South America is a growth market as you see the World Cup and the Olympics and things like that moving into the South America. There is more and more drive for higher content, better HD and higher order set-top boxes. So that’s the focus area for us and I think it represents an opportunity.
And then just like we have seen in North America, there is a transition from analog, terrestrial TV to digital and we were able to capitalize on that in North America and Europe. We see that as an opportunity in Southeast Asia and Russia and some of these other geographies. So, I think as we look at our set-top box business, we see near-term growth outside of the geographies where we have significant presence.
And then we see longer-term, the UltraHD conversion that you talked about. I think that we feel like, we have a very, very strong leadership position in chipsets to support UltraHD. And I think that again, arguably we have a year lead in terms of being able to go and support that. I think if that transaction happens, we are going to be in a position to again consolidate market share and pick up ASPs and drive content higher in the set-top box area.
Great. Let see this side. Is there is any questions from the audience?
Just want to know, when you talk to your customers like Samsung, Apple et cetera and initial Qualcomm is pushing hard to have Apple in iPhone 6 to put there while LAN solution in there, the combo chip they have and of course you just want your order, could you share how, how do you see the rates coming along in the landscape area?
I think in generally speaking in our connectivity business, when we talked about this in the last earnings call, we have seen some share erosion at the low end of the market. I think that if you look at -- for example, Chinese ODMs, they are gravitating towards more of these turnkey platforms where Wi-Fi, baseband applications, processors coming kind of shrink wrapped and all moving together. That was never a huge portion of our market, but nonetheless, I think plus or minus there has been some share that’s moved away from us and potentially towards some of our other competitors.
At the high end of the market, the Tier 1s, our ability to stay in control there, maintain our market share is very much characterized by the ability to innovate and to continue to introduce features at a very high rate and then some software defensibility. So again, at the Tier 1, I think we feel very, very good, as we look out into 2014 at our ability to maintain both those vectors, the ability to innovate and spin the plate quickly in terms of new feature introduction and also the ability to maintain the software leadership and software feature advantages that we have. So, again, as I’ve talked about a couple of times before as I forecast 2014, I don’t see much change in the overall connectivity landscape.
Can you talk about the integration of Wi-Fi into the baseband and in which circumstances does that make sense and where does it not?
I think generally, it doesn’t make sense. I think what does makes sense and where we have seen impact is this idea of a total shrink wrapped platform and by shrink wrapped I mean, a vendor is delivering all the pieces of the puzzle, the connectivity piece, the baseband, the applications, the processor, the software as a one turnkey unit. I think that -- whether you architect that as an integrated play or a disintegrated play, we are seeing competitors that have two different approaches at that very low end of the market, put pressure on us on the shrink wrap platforms.
Again, at the high end of the market, the high end of the market is characterized by this feature innovation. It’s characterized by software differentiation and they are the best thing to do, as frankly have a disaggregated solution because you can iterate the connectivity on a different cadence than the baseband or the applications processor. So, I think that -- our ability to continue win in that market is very much built on a disaggregated strategy and I do not see that hurting us in any way, shape or form in the near term and frankly the foreseeable future.
What size do you characterize that low end market, which is suitable for integration of that -- whatever, what percentage of total smartphone units?
Yeah. I mean it’s hard to say. I think in general, the Chinese domestic market as a general statement is an area where we see a lot of that shrink wrapped effect. The phones that are shipping into China from Chinese suppliers are typically characterized by that. In terms of the magnitude, it’s hard for me to call but it’s not an inappreciable size of the market by any means.
Let’s raise some questions if I can. Coming back to Renesas, I’m still a little bit confused. You seem to be talking more about revenue accretion from arguably design wins or designing games, which probably there before you move to acquire the business. Is that really what matters, or actually, is really the purpose of acquisition to help through the bottleneck progressing towards having a stable stock for LTE robust space and et cetera, considering that it has been very difficult for everybody back at Qualcomm to go to that learning curve?
And second question is your main one is customer, historically. Samsung commented two weeks ago, actually having a strategy on low to medium modem going forward. At the Analyst Day, they talked about actually shipping already and incubated application to also raise money in Q3 with somebody else’s IP on the modem side. Arguably, this is probably not meaningful right now, but longer-term how do you address your positioning at Samsung here between going at [Cipher] and Qualcomm?
Okay. Let me try to address the first question and provide, clarity around how we see this. I mean, there is a multiple dimensions to the Renesas acquisition. First, again, from the revenue acceleration standpoint, I think there is a meaningful revenue acceleration that we get pulling material revenue forward two to three quarters from where we were on our organic roadmap. So, I think that’s one dimension. I think again, we de-risk in the plan. I think that the thing that we have found is we’ve embarked upon this, LTE. There is a lot of road blocks and I think there are lot of competitors now outside of Qualcomm, are running into some of the road blocks as they go through and we had some of line of sight to that as we got into the carrier calls.
It’s not an easy fit to get through all of these AT&T call, NTT call. In Europe, the Vodafone calls, things like that are difficult and I don’t think there was instrumental challenge for us by any means on the organic path but certainly we de-risk all of that. And I think the other thing that Samir has been talking about throughout the day and is very much the case is. It’s allowed us to bifurcate.
Our organic solutions was really attacked in the high end of the market. It was a disaggregated pin modem, we talked about and announced that was primarily targeted at customers that would have their own applications processor and needed a thin mode of bolt-on to that. So that portion of roadmap certainly continues although delayed and we are going to add some features to it to make sure that we’re on track and shooting ahead.
But it’s allowed us now to bifurcate the roadmap and attack both the low end with the Renesas assets, sort of, turnkey and then to take that intellectual property build it into our own Broadcom based flow, Broadcom based technology and continue on and prosecute the high end of the roadmap and feel like we are well positioned there to go and serve that. So really those are the three dimensions. There is acceleration. There is a de-risk and there is an ability now to bifurcate and to attack more on the market.
The second part of your question if I understood, it was more on Samsung internal sort of solution?
Steven Chin - UBS
That’s public forum. I mean, (inaudible) Si announced but we are already shipping an integrated application processor basebands since Q3 using “system company IP” on the baseband side.
And finally we willingness to some to Si to significantly best piece of effort in a relatively done integrated application processes and basebands in the longer term bands, and one should infer obviously use internally by Samsung mobile solution at onsite Qualcomm and for you, it always has been the main customer and so trying to predict?
I mean I think that Samsung is one of the most interesting customers in terms of how they play the internal versus external. I think they are very fair. I think that as they approach and look at organic or internally developed solutions, it’s just as difficult for that internal Samsung Semiconductor team to compete on the phone platforms as it is an external vendor.
So I think we have to compete just as we would against any other competitor and our job there is to make sure we are either delivering a cost point that makes sense or performance level that makes sense. We have seen customers take on IP, for example, there was an acquisition some time ago from Samsung of CSR and how they are ending up, able to prosecute that and bring that fore from a semiconductor perspective and compete with us is always a checkered thing.
It’s not clear as to how that plays out and acquiring an asset and taking that production in a meaningful way are two entirely different things. So again, I think that Samsung is an important part of our business and certainly as we look forward I think it’s going to be a very, very key player in the overall landscape and we are going to have to pick up share there if we are going to be ultimately successful in LTE, nothing that they are doing internally, I think changes are taking there.
Steven Chin - UBS
Thank you. Maybe next one from me, on the reference to time that Broadcom spoke about a year ago. They are targeting to get low cost 3G opportunity. Can you talk about some of the puts and takes of how that platform ended up, where was it with regard to expectations and any plans to develop a similar rep design for the Renesas LTE asset?
Okay. Good question, Steven. So, I think what we found again in the Chinese market, I think the gentlemen at the back was talking about that relative to low costs. In order to service that, you really have to have this shrink-wrap solution. And we have developed that for the Chinese market and if something that we have had, I would say some success with, I think that relatively speaking it has been modest success around our shrink-wrap platform.
We do have a broad-based engagement in China but I would say from an overall market share and volume numbers, I think there is a lot of room for us to grow in the China market. I think as we think about the LTE asset, we definitely are going to have to do something similar. I think our attack plan will be a bit different where I think we are going to think more about the export market and the opportunity there as we think about this lower cost LTE segment, the Chinese player I think can carve out reasonable market share as they kind of come in to North America and into Europe.
And thus that will be an important customer base for us and somebody that we are going to focus on, but I think rather than and then have internal consumption handsets that are manufactured in China for China consumption, we will be looking more to -- handset manufacturing in China for consumption in Europe or consumption in North America.
Steven Chin - UBS
I had a question on the wireless business, more from an operational, I guess, design execution standpoint. Obviously Broadcom is nurturing to IP integration, you guys definitely a stellar record there, but from my -- it is my perception of the product cadence and the cellular SOC business seems to be almost like any product every year, I mean, looking at some of the prognosis from various competitors, is the current Broadcom design flow and also the current product roadmap, how does that cater to or compare to what’s up for today and is that necessary to better than annual product cadence where we’re trying to outdo yourself by a good measure each year?
I mean, I think that I would share your perspective. I think the good news for us is that the other byproduct of the Renesas acquisition has been the ability to accelerate our product introduction cadence. We have already talked about two products that will be introduced respectively within a calendar year, dual-core and quad-core LTE modem and then as we look further beyond that, we definitely have an accelerating cadence relative to introduction around an integrated Broadcom plus Renesas’ platform.
So I think as we look out, we certainly tried it and bifurcate the roadmap and be competitive in both the high and low segments of the handset market. And in order to do that, that’s going to necessitate a fairly rich product roadmap and a cadence that’s along the lines of what you are speaking of, perhaps even faster. And I think that’s what we feel like we are right now from a roadmap perspective.
Steven Chin - UBS
And does the same hold for application processors development?
Yes, I think application processors are same. The thing that we found with the cellular business in general is it’s really three things that have to happen. You have to have a modem, I think that we really feel good about where we stack up right now, you have to have graphics and you have to have an application processor and you have to be ready to invest and iterate along all three vectors. And given where we are right now, we have obviously made that investment and plan to do that to remain competitive on all three parts of the -- all three pieces of puzzle.
Steven Chin - UBS
Can you provide some perspective on the LTE competitive landscape right now talking about kind of the players and where they stand and what part of the market that you can address, which if you can. It also includes China in there with immediate effect?
I mean I think that we sort of alluded to at earlier in the conversation. The competition right now is perhaps for the most part where we were six or eight months ago, where they are starting to work on these carrier qualifications. And they are starting to understand the obstacles that lay between where they are and actually getting to production. So right now we see one guy outside of Qualcomm’s being able to ship and that’s the data only. That will be about Intel on a data only product.
Nobody has been successful at least to my knowledge in being able to ship a voice to data product into the market. So at least right now the opportunity to be number two on voice and data is open and we feel that’s the door that we can run through relative to where the rest of the people are. There has been announcements that competitors have made but they have subsequently retracted, announcements that have been modified.
It seems like the -- there is a lot of sort of lien for type of activity going on in this space and then when cards are put on the table it’s found that, that was a bluffer or things get ultimately retracted. So in terms of what we see the customers are very much rallying around our solution. We see opportunity and I think that opportunity sort of spells that we are a strong competitor and a second entrant into this market.
How long that landscape remains is I think is a big TBD. It’s very hard to say there is a part of war type of climate right now, but at least near term we feel really good about our prospects and the ability to go on, provide meaningful competition or meaningful second competitor to the number one guy.
Steven Chin - UBS
Okay. I think, we are about to run out of time. So I just want to thank Mike and Sameer again for your time today and everyone for attending.
Steven, thank you again.
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