INVESTools: Swim And Sink

I never really short stocks, but I’m sitting here with the flu watching the tube (no, not YouTube — good old-fashioned television), and for the last 20 minutes I’ve been really tempted. It’s not because the flu has gone to my brain and driven me mad, it’s because an infomercial for a product called INVESTools , whose parent company is publicly traded (Nasdaq:SWIM), is driving me mad.

The company is making absurd promises (see "Avoiding the Charlatans") that students who attend its seminars and use its pricey software will destroy the market in no time. Some of the testimonials even make claims of outrageous 800%+ profits in just two weeks! The software and “education” are based on a system of just “following the red and green arrows” that indicate by technical signals when to buy and sell.

That’s it. No research, no bothersome accounting to learn, no money to start, no problems!

At this point you probably know what I’m going to say: If this isn't a scam, it's at best a massive ripoff. And in the long-run, you can probably make a bundle shorting the company.

In case you’re not convinced right off the bat that something like this is bonkers, allow me to convince you. First, as I’ve argued in the past, technical analysis (especially “systems” using these special, mass-marketed, cookie-cutter strategies) is almost always bound to failure. But I’ll bite my lip on this, and save it for a different place and time. Instead I’ll make the ridiculous assumption that the system does work, and show why it just isn’t sustainable.

Even in the extremely unlikely case that the “system” did make its students a ton of money, like any trading system, the returns one could garner would disappear when everybody does it. That’s just part of the game. All good things must come to and end. Ask hedge fund gurus like Steve Cohen, who himself admits that opportunities become scarce when everyone is in on it.

And, trust me on this, if there is some elegant system like this that actually works for an extended period, you can count on the hedge fund folks to find it and trade it away before INVESTools does. So the product seems bound to mediocrity or failure.

Furthermore, the way I understand it, INVESTools’ students often spend upwards of $10,000 on seminars and software and what they actually “learn” is not stock trading, but actually option trading. Right off the bat, this should scare anyone who knows anything about options. They’re not exactly easy money. It’s a bit frightening that this company is teaching the average Joe (and yes, when it comes to options you can include this Joe on the list) that this is somehow safe and guaranteed money (and yes, it is saying that).

Worse still, the web is littered with disgruntled students who never made a dime and whose attempts at a refund prove futile. It seems only a matter of time before this fad, to put it nicely, comes to an end.

From an operating standpoint, the company has grown the top line dramatically over the past few years. And its cash flow is strong, despite mounting accounting losses (which are mostly a function of the fact that it collects the cash for services up front, but books revenue over the course of the subscription, leading to a large deferred revenue line item). The stock trades for around 20 times the TTM cash flow.

Nonetheless, with the basically-bound-to-fail product, I have trouble seeing any sustained growth, and would be surprised to see much of anything at all in a few years when everyone catches on that the product just isn’t worth it. I encourage anyone who has used the product to share your thoughts, and I hope that any bulls would share their take.

SWIM 1-yr chart

Comments

[darsdesigns:]

I have to disagree with your commentary.

First I want to say that I did not spend anywhere remotely near $10,000.00 for software or education courses or seminars.

Second, I want to say that your statement "what they actually 'learn' is not stock trading, but actually option trading" is wrong as well. Stock courses are offered and you must take and pass the "stock" final exam before being allowed to take the options courses - giving you a sound foundation to learn about and trade options.

Third, I want to say that students are not just thrown into trading with real money as you suggest as a paper trading account is included and definitely encouraged to use diligently before ever investing any real money.

My experience is that is is a great program. Having traded in the past but stopping trading I personally bought it to get back into trading and to learn and educate myself. I have learned so much in such a short time I really think it is invaluable if a person really wants to be serious and get into trading. The live webcasts on trading (many different subjects) are invaluable.

If one wants to get into trading, learn and make money how would you suggest they learn it? They don't really teach this in school (sadly - they should). This is a one stop learn everything program in one place and all the tools you need are in one place which makes it very nice.

2007 Mar 13 12:43 PM

[David Jackson:]

Couple of questions here:

<b>Joseph:</b...
I'm concerned at your statement that " If this isn't a scam, it's at best a massive ripoff." Can you provide more evidence of the promises made and how they aren't fulfilled?

You write that "the web is littered with disgruntled students who never made a dime and whose attempts at a refund prove futile". Can you provide links to back up that assertion?

<b>Dardesigns:&l...
You say that you had a great experience with the product. Did you make money trading as a result of that, and are you still trading now? Can you tell us how your performance changed after you took the course compared to beforehand?

2007 Mar 13 01:18 PM

[Brett Peven:]

While I don’t disagree with your assessment, the company is a favorite of Andrew Feinberg of Kipplinger’s who, while he has a bit higher turnover than I’m comfortable with, has a clear value bend to his thinking. See this, and do a search for his other thoughts on the company:

www.kiplinger.com/maga...

2007 Mar 13 02:07 PM

[Joe Citarrella:]

darsdesigns, how much did you spend on the program. Also, could you share your performance statistics? Finally, would you say that the outrageous claims of not needing money to start, making hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars, and not needing to do much work other than following the red and green arrows on the infomercial are fair and reasonable?

Frank, I've read a number of customer accounts on the product and company. Naturally, some are positive and glowing, but many more than should be are harsh and scathing. Some customers claim that the company promises your money back if you do not recoup your investment in the program, but that the company refuses to pay up when customers come forward. Others claim that investools students average 30%+ per year, but there's no indication of a scientifically performed survey or methodology to verify this.

Finally, here are just a few links for product reviews (with good and bad mixed in):
www.forexbastards.com/...
www.bgry.com/
www.xomreviews.com/inv...
www.corporate-review.c...

-Joe

2007 Mar 13 04:18 PM

[sanjayseven:]

Shorting SWIM seems like a very risky trade. Whatever you think about the classes, keep in mind that with the merger between investools and online broker thinkorswim, the business model is very different than simply selling seminars. investools used to send business to optionxpress, another online broker, and that stock still trades in the low to mid $20s, even though it's off its highs. With investools customers going now to the brokerage side of SWIM, it's not unreasonable to believe that SWIM might trade at roughly oxps levels. That's why I would be very nervous shorting the stock.

2007 Mar 13 09:43 PM

[Dan Jacome:]

$75M in cash and no debt: maybe SWIM will be acquired itself! 8% of float is short, probably for the reasons listed above. Short squeeze, clean balance sheet, robust run rate: SWIM actually goes higher. look @ the open interest in the option chains for SWIM: April &amp; May 15 call volume is &gt; put activity.

2007 Mar 13 09:59 PM

[Soluskro:]

"The company is making absurd promises (see "Avoiding the Charlatans") that students who attend its seminars and use its pricey software will destroy the market in no time."

There are 250K grads. If all these grads had 100K to invest (a stretch), consider the impact on the market.
Your claim is absurd.

"Some of the testimonials even make claims of outrageous 800%+ profits in just two weeks!"

Take that with a grain of salt. It's possible. You could get lucky as heck and turn $100 into 900.
But use some common sense. (and any buyer of the tools.education should use common sense too).
I don't for a minute think that someone turned 100K into a million. Sheesh.

"The software and “education” are based on a system of just “following the red and green arrows” that indicate by technical signals when to buy and sell."

This is not true. The red/green signals are indeed part of the hook, but I have the tools and I barely even look at the arrows as my be-all end-all of buy and sell signals. Though they make good indicators (see below)

"That’s it. No research, no bothersome accounting to learn, no money to start, no problems!"

Another false statement.

The education and tools is ALL about resarch. What the toolbox offers is the ability to research in minutes what can take hours (days or weeks).
I loved the classes and learned quite a bit about the market. The real gem with Investools is the tools themselves.
So how have I fared? I have some trades that have yielded over 15%. Others which are struggling at a few %. And I have some dogs.
However, the tools and education has saved me from making some big mistakes. Some stocks I was looking at I have avoided because of the tools. Some would have cost me dearly.

Before signing up with Investools I did a LOT of research on the company. I looked far and wide on the web for comments and testimonials. Because I am a skeptic at heart, I wanted to be talked OUT of signing up and paying thousands of dollars.
What I found was the majority of discussion were mostly postings by people bitching abbout the price and knocking the Tools and education without ever trying them.
Ironic that you fall squarely in this category.

I can say I have covered my tuition with trades I made with Investools. My biggest gains though have been by becoming a shareholder of Investools (and since they have some tricky accounting, even their best searches don't yield SWIM as a top stock under many various prebuilt searches).

While I have thouroughly enjoyed the Technical education and the options, I am a fundamental guy at heart (and more of an Intermediate to long term investor).
I was so impressed with the company after listening in to some of the conference calls that I was sold on the company and what they are trying to acheive. So I have a nice nut tied up with SWIM and have (currently) a 111% gain (even after the recent 18% haircut due to the market slide).

Where I will agree with you is on the perception of the sales pitch. I blanche at Infomercials and I wish they didn't have them at all. I think that is the only weak point because as a skeptic, I see that as shlocky.

Bottom line, I am quite satisfied with the education and extremely satisfied with the toolbox. You can get some of the tool components (like those bubblegum red and green arrows) on free sites. And if that suits you, that's great. But you will be pouring hours in to research that you don't have to with the tools. The $600 price tag on the toolbox is well worth it. As for the education-- I have really stepped up my knowledge of the markets and I really enjoy plugging in stocks that a guy like Cramer "Booyah's" every night and laughing at what bad advice he's touting.
On the otherhand, I am not Cramer and my strategy is different. I think that is the greatest chasm to cross when discussing any stock. Message boards can be deadly because one person may have a preset strategy and be trading for the hour or day whereas a buy and hold guy will get shellacked following what the day trader is trying to do.

Frankly, I find your thesis that a lack of BBB or ripoff report (or whatever) complaints is due to the fact that people rarely make them-- or they take time to show up-- is disingenuous because it's unprovable.
Basically you are trying to prove the company sucks and you use a LACK of real complaints (from people who used the tools) as a positve proof that your thesis is correct. That's bizarre.
The complaints you did post are mixed at best. I am certainly willing to entertain that Investools is not for everyone. And as I'm sure you are aware, trading and investing requires emotional discipline. Some people lack that and no amount of money can teach it. You have it or you don't.

I think many people are looking for a "turn lead into gold" quick fix. Like joining a gym, you can pay for a full service sports club with all the amenities and personal training and still fail if you don't commit.

There are some out there who have so much discipline all they need are a few books and discount brokerage account and they are off to the races.

It all depends on your situation.

Incidentally, if you were following those "red and green arrows" you would have bought SWIM (formerly IEDU) at $8 in September, bought more (or just held) in January at $12.50 and sold your position around $15 in March.
Of course, you might not have acted because both times there was a "phantom green" (something you learn in basic stocks course).

So short away and backup your thesis. I think you'll be sorry-- or maybe you won't.

2007 Mar 14 10:44 PM

[Joe Citarrella:]

Ed, thanks for sharing your own story. Congratulations on your success.

I have already responded to a number of your arguments on my own site, where the comments section is engaged in intense discussion. A few things I did want to add here, though:

1) The impact on the market from 250K grads would be minor. But the impact if big money were to catch on to what INVESTools calls its "proven strategy" to beat the market would be substantial. Of course, that's assuming there actually was some special formula that actually worked to begin with...
2) The BBB comment was actually in response to someone who used the lack of BBB complaints to demonstrate consumer satisfaction. That was NOT intended to be a proof of my thesis -- it was simply to point out that it should not be used on the other side of the argument. In reality it was not and is not a turning point of my argument.
3) The "false statements" you accuse me of were in the company's own words on their infomercials. So my main take home point should still be the following: Either the company's education is a ripoff or it's marketed in a questionable manner. Whatever the case, the company is doing something wrong. If, as you're saying, reality differs from my statements, then blame the company for falsifications or misrepresentations -- not me.

Anyway, I'd encourage you to check out the comments and discussion on joecit.com. I'm sure the other readers would be happy to hear from you.

Best,
Joe

2007 Mar 16 02:42 AM

[jrothstein:]

Joe,

I am an Investools student and I have learned a lot. I am presently up 61% since October 2006 ( even with the glitch in the matrix on Feb. 27 ). I bet Cramer isn't, I paper trade many of his stock picks and I am beating the pants off of him. It is not just about 3 green arrows. I always go long before there is a third green arrow. Any of the students that did not make money using their education and software must have not put in enough study time. I am very happy with Investools.

Regards
J

2007 Jun 21 03:24 PM

[User 106483:]

Wish I could say it like Ed but I'll try. Been an Investooler for 5 yrs now. Each year my return percentage improves from the year previous. Investools does not give hot stock picks that you are supposed to blindly invest with like some sites do. It's the classic "teach a man to fish rather than giving him a fish" story.
Think of it as an investing education...where else can you go to school to learn investing? I have improved on my yearly returns each year. My wife, a staunch diehard conservative saver is continually finding CD's and other slow return investments she has squirreled away... redeeming to cash so i can invest with it. She has even given up on buying land, she knows she will hear "can it beat what i do?"
I know it's not worth much to read some number from an anonymous posting but I'll give it anyway. For the current year we are up 64% in both IRA's and better in the taxable account. Using the "tools" I could see the sub-prime thing about 6 weeks ahead and shorted heavy, the implosion of the builders was an easy one and it didn't take a rocket scientist to see the brokers were next. Investools helps you pick the low hanging fruit. Before you slag something, at least try it first!

2007 Sep 11 01:29 PM

[sam12231241...:]

Yea, umm, i dont get what your motive is in making this article, however I dont think its good proper to make statements without supporting it with evidence. Investools is currently 1000 for everything, not 10k, also, you dont buy on 3 indicators, you look at the trends, the red/green arrows and their positions, the phase 1 and 2 sections, F/E score, volatility, financials, and many other indicators. You can also see how the mutual fund movement is (in or out of a stock/sector). So when you may think something, you may want to simply put that investools is for people who will make more than $50 a month investing, not that it is a scam.

2007 Nov 22 05:13 PM

[Nelle:]

I took the class 6 months ago, not realizing they would be back at a more convenient time. Because of personal circumstances, until now, I haven't been able to give any time to the program. Meanwhile, my investools coaching team, has kept in contact with me, encouraging me to hang in there & call when I am ready. They call every couple weeks, which I truely never expected. Each time they call, they remind me of the investment I have made and tell me that if meanwhile I could watch one of the classes I might feel a little more confident when I do call. They say to call ANY time, as often as I wish. Although I am quite disappointed with myself, so far, my coaches have been fantastic. I have told them, and myself, that once I get this program going, I'll be one of their most successful students. That doesn't necesssarily mean I'll be wealthy. It means that I'll earn at least average and will be having a very good time doing it. Oh, sure I wish that I could take a refresher class for a token fee, but that isn't their policy. My problems are not theirs to tend. They do an excellent job teaching.

2007 Nov 29 01:20 AM

[Invictus:]

User 106483 writes, "Using the "tools" I could see the sub-prime thing about 6 weeks ahead and shorted heavy, the implosion of the builders was an easy one and it didn't take a rocket scientist to see the brokers were next."

Tell me what's next with your crystal ball?

2007 Nov 30 08:45 AM

[Pavlodar:]

I use the program, and it works. I've been averaging between 3K and 5K profits per week. As for not needing money to start? I've never encountered this ridiculous claim --of course you need money to open an account and have something to invest, but I started with the minimum $3,500. Also, I only spent $995 on the training. Basic day-trading is not brain surgery or rocket science, and to make money from the market does not require a massive amount of knowledge. It requires a willingness to risk some of your money, and an ability to identify patterns. That's all. I've encountered many people who do not tap into the money stream that is the market because they are intimidated by so-called experts who are trying to protect their turf.

2007 Dec 06 12:47 PM

[gp:]

I have just 'bought' the $995 home-study version of investools (in lieu of the 2-day seminar). This is because I believe that the on-line option would probably be less loaded with trade-up propaganda.

I have read the horror stories of no-refund - but some are full of holes. I am a skeptic, so I suspect that many of the praises are written by investool shills.

The most disconcerting issue, however, is their unprecedented range of quotes for the program, from ~ $500 to ~ $3000 for the same or similar package. This alone brands them as a scam as any reputable company will set a fair price, display it on the web site, and offer the same price and terms to everybody. Not act like a used car salesman on overdose of steroids in pricing and terms.

But I have bought in, and according to other sites the straight forward 30-day money back guarantee is always denied, so I may regret the decision.

Alas, I am optimistic. I have a detailed stock trading plan already (sans options), intend to enhance it with their tools, and make some important money.

Oh yeah, I forgot. The lead article was an unsupported shot-in-the-dark, totally without merit.

2007 Dec 08 02:51 PM

[gp:]

Now I have to criticize this web site. It is an unconscionable tactic to allow a person to craft a response that may take several minutes, or a long time, depending on how diligent they may be, and then force them to sign up with an email if they do not want their time wasted.

Disgraceful tactic. I am suspect of any site that uses this tactic to be completely untrustworthy in their "promise" to not use my email for spam.

2007 Dec 08 02:58 PM

[User 897:]

There is a better way!!! After reading all of your posts, I must say that I agree with both sides of this argument. But the bottom line is.... You can find and use many of the same tools for free elsewhere, without the very heft upsell pressure to purchase their top package at over $24,000. My wife and I attended a workshop from one of their former instructors that taught the advanced courses. He left the company because he didn't like their hyped up tactics and also felt their price tag was way too high. He teaches small workshops covering all of the same material for less that $500 for 2 full days, with absolutely no sales pressure and a whole lot of education. His website is WWW.INVESTORJIM.com. Nothing fancy, just pure education.
I feel it is up to everyone to decide what is best for them personally, and in our case, learning the same material and saving $10,000 to $20,000+ was well worth our time.

Good luck to y'all.

2008 Jan 21 12:26 AM

[Soluskro:]

I think your pulling a bait and switch here...
Your guy=$500.
Investools=$999 and for that, you get the two day seminar PLUS 6 months of the toolbox use.

The 24K is the PHD program and I can gaurantee you that your buddy, InvestorJim can't possibly get that in depth in a two day seminar.

Just so you and the readers of your post are comparing apples to apples. You are NOT "saving 10K-20K" with your two day seminar.
You *might* be saving a few hundred bucks.

But The tools subscription alone is worth the entire $999.
And while you can get most of the the tools for free, good luck sorting and parsing the data.
It would take days or weeks to run searches AND do the analysis that takes minutes with the toolbox.

But you are right-- people should shop and choose what works best for them

2008 Feb 01 06:18 PM

[User 177213:]

As an Investools student, and I would encourage you to at least attend a workshop, before stating false comments. Investools has been a great tool in my investing life. This program gives what you put into it. The red and green arrows are just "insurance" and have saved myself thousands of dollars in losses. And yes I have had some great gains also.

It isn't for everyone, but if your serious about learning to take control of your own finances, this course will educate you on how to do so. The courses are expensive, but you can learn at your own clip, (you don't have to buy the PHD course), and gradually move up to more risky trades such as options. Investools won't let you start an options class until you have passed the stocks course.

If all of Bear Stearns share holders would have used the Investools method, they would have been out of that stock 2-3 days before it crashed.

I would encourage everyone to atleast learn about investing, even if it's not Investools. Many people who invest in their companies own stock or 401k plans don't have a clue, and how many have put their hard earned money into a mutual fund that is charging then fees that they don't know about. Once you learn the facts about investing, and Investools teaches you this, you will want to take control of your own future, and not let your fate be determined by some fund manager that is robbing you blind. Listen to Bob Brinker or Suze Orman on TV and the radio. One book that I have read is Rule # 1 by Phil Town . I think very highly of Phil, for it wasn't for his book I think I would still be held hostage to the fund managers.
I now trade like a pro and finally realize why the market does what it does and how I can have an advantage.

Please don't listen to people who don't know what they are talking about, find out for yourself what you feel comfortable investing in. All I can say is if you don't educate yourself soon, you will be very sorry. The world is full of sharks waiting to feed on your ignorance.

God Bless,

Ron

2008 Apr 12 01:19 PM

[msecrist:]

I just wanted to thrown my $.02 worth in. I am an Investools student as well. Since I bought the education package back in the fall of 2005, I have quit working and trade for a living. Granted, I got a once in a lifetime opportunity to take an early retirement and use my accumulated retirement & early departure bonuses to start up my full time trading. However, I will say that anyone who is willing to put the time in can do this using their education. Their best value is taking fairly complex topics and boiling them down to a format that can be easily digested. That plus coaching and online webinars, etc are huge in my opinion. I know that the initial price is a bit shocking and may have kept me out of the program initially, however, I'm glad I spent it. I've made that much several times over this year.

Most of the people I've talked to who have felt themselves ripped off by Investools mostly are focused on the $$ but aren't willing to do what it takes to get there. If I can do it, I think pretty much anyone with an interest and passion for this kind of business can do well.

I will say that I'm not impressed by the fact that the actual full cost is held back until later. It would be better for them to be a bit more up front about what's available and the cost. And the fact of the matter is that the value of the eduation isn't the red & green arrow system. To me, that's more the hook that gets people in - and it probably does work if all you do is trend trade stocks. However, the value to me is in the options education. Without that, I'd never be where I am now.

2008 May 09 11:39 PM

[toma:]

Maybe or maybe not a scam but it sure looks like Investools is all about lining their own pockets for a profit.

Investools recently released their 10Q report and in it, it states that CEO Lee Barba made $10.5 million last year, CFO Ida Kane received a 50% pay increase to $682,000, Instructor and VP Andrew Scott made $1.4 million, VP Scott Sheridan made $1.2 million and two other instructors, Michael Drew and Scott Martin made $1 million last year. You can find all this at finance.google.com/fin...

The average pay for a not for profit CEO is only $145,270 per year (charitynavigator.org) but for the for profit Investools it is $10.5 million. And you wonder why they are selling you a $24,000 training program and why the SEC is doing an informal investigation on the company.

2008 May 18 08:14 PM

[ThomasH:]

We have been their customers as well, ever since the time as the company was known as the CNBC University. Have been I said, because we decided to stop the $50 a month expense, and you can guess already, because we deemed the system not working really. I have no problem with their attempt to educate private investors, I even have no issue with technical indicators as a part of the process, with teaching about sectors and fundamentals analysis. What I do not like, is the fact that even in their paid for seminar a substantial part of the time goes into saying "actually stock trading is just an appetizer, real money is in options." For a steep seminar price, $15000 back than. So we have in fact for the investment merely got an access to the web page with "green arrows/red arrows" and basically heard the same what we have heard in the free presentation. We have also discovered than that often the "green arrow" search does not bring any stocks, and so the search for investment proves to be a bot more complicated than looking at red/green arrow.

We would like emphasize that we feel to have really learned from them, I achieve often good results nowadays, but I do so without the arrows, with information freely available. I think that the price tag for the education is too steep and we think that they should back off with sells pitch during paid seminars.

2008 Jun 12 03:34 PM

[User 221172:]

It's a scam. I work in the industry. I know thinkorswim and investools. It's a hidious scam. It's a scam, it's a scam, it's a scam. Investools was unregulated. Post merger kept the entities separate, but the sec may hold the registered tos accountable...tos is throwing a compliance presence in utah...tos hired a finra lawyer to serve their interests in the sec informal inquiry...non-register... entities aren't held to the same regulations as a registered member, hence, investools and optionetics have sprung up...A registered b/d can't do the type of business as these non-registered entities because the regulators require fair, balances, honest presentations and literature. Associated member's are individually held accountable, etc. It's sad really that many investool clients (complete idiots as they are) have lost their life savings by believing what they were told, that they can be turned into traders w/o discretion. The regulators were established to protect the public's interests. It's sickening that these types of companies are not held to the same standards as they aren't required to be regulated. Same kind of scenario w/ people who create their own website and offer their trading services via a poa in return for a fee... of course it's a scam...someday hopefully the regulators will put an end to it...but who knows when


On Mar 13 12:43 PM darsdesigns wrote:

> I have to disagree with your commentary.
>
> First I want to say that I did not spend anywhere remotely near $10,000.00
> for software or education courses or seminars.
>
> Second, I want to say that your statement "what they actually 'learn'
> is not stock trading, but actually option trading" is wrong as well.
> Stock courses are offered and you must take and pass the "stock"
> final exam before being allowed to take the options courses - giving
> you a sound foundation to learn about and trade options.
>
> Third, I want to say that students are not just thrown into trading
> with real money as you suggest as a paper trading account is included
> and definitely encouraged to use diligently before ever investing
> any real money.
>
> My experience is that is is a great program. Having traded in the
> past but stopping trading I personally bought it to get back into
> trading and to learn and educate myself. I have learned so much in
> such a short time I really think it is invaluable if a person really
> wants to be serious and get into trading. The live webcasts on trading
> (many different subjects) are invaluable.
>
> If one wants to get into trading, learn and make money how would
> you suggest they learn it? They don't really teach this in school
> (sadly - they should). This is a one stop learn everything program
> in one place and all the tools you need are in one place which makes
> it very nice.

2008 Jul 02 11:11 PM

[User 221172:]

might as well add that tos' decision to merge w/ the likes of investools tells you a lot about the character of their management. They are old floor guys who think the industry revolves around their little order entry desk and italian imported desks...they completely disregard complaince and are only concerned about their russian dolls that prance through the office and the own egos...but what do I know....it's not like the head of finra's chicago district office conducted their last exit interview. Why would she be there if they really gave a shit about the product they are selling you.

2008 Jul 02 11:19 PM

[thad:]

I didn't see any published data on Martin or Drew...where did this information come from?


On May 18 08:14 PM toma wrote:

> Maybe or maybe not a scam but it sure looks like Investools is all
> about lining their own pockets for a profit.
>
> Investools recently released their 10Q report and in it, it states
> that CEO Lee Barba made $10.5 million last year, CFO Ida Kane received
> a 50% pay increase to $682,000, Instructor and VP Andrew Scott made
> $1.4 million, VP Scott Sheridan made $1.2 million and two other instructors,
> Michael Drew and Scott Martin made $1 million last year. You can
> find all this at finance.google.com/fin...
>
> The average pay for a not for profit CEO is only $145,270 per year
> (charitynavigator.org) but for the for profit Investools it
> is $10.5 million. And you wonder why they are selling you a $24,000
> training program and why the SEC is doing an informal investigation
> on the company.

2008 Jul 23 07:19 PM

[thad:]

I have found Martin to be a sincere, educated fellow. He tells students to only enroll in additional Education if it meets their financial capabilities. NOTHING had been found to substantiate any negative comments on this man.....

2008 Nov 22 10:49 PM

[AustinLonghorn:]

I literally finished the 2 day intro seminar for Investools in Austin, TX. I paid $99, and got to bring a guest. I have been trading for about a year now, and was making decent gains.

Included in my $99 seminar fee, was a 3 month subscription to the toolbox. I plan on using the tools in my current trading, and will report back on the results in a few months-

That being said, the instructor of the seminar stressed REPEATEDLY that the system is NOT all about buying on 3 green arrows, and selling on 3 red. That might be what most people take away from 15 hours worth of course material-- but if so, those aren't people who should be trading markets anyway.

What the program teaches you, is how to understand and analyze fundamentals of a company (so you know what to buy), understand and analyze technicals of a company (so you know when to buy), and then understand a few other concepts that can help you increase your probabilities to make money (like hedging your bets).

I think the program is a great one for any novice to intermediate trader--- When I plugged some of my holdings into the Investools toolbox-- using the things I learned in the Seminar, I could identify several better exit points over the last 1 year-- I would not be able to do this if it were not for Investools.

I don't know abuot people paying $10,000 or even $1,000-- I paid $99, for 2 people to attend, and have 3 months access to the toolbox. If it works for me, I think he $600 yearly fee is a small price to pay for the vast amount of information that is centralized in one place.

2008 Dec 12 11:59 AM

[PaperProphet:]

I completely agree with the author this article. I've seen a number of these so called "classes" of companies pretending they have software which can beat the market and I even attended one (TeachMeToTrade). I can give you a number of reasons why the ones I've run across are scams but the bottom line: If the software could make you money (with the 'magic' red/green arrows or whatever) then those companies could make a lot more money actually using the software themselves rather than spending money trying to market it to people who then would arbitrage any such hypothetical advantage out of the market.

Instead the companies heavily market it and try to 'tier' people into spending even upwards of $20,000 on classes. If, hypothetically again, one of these companies could get even a 5% statistical boost in earnings return from the market by using their own software, you can bet they wouldn't be selling it to anyone.

What you typically also find is that these types of companies do 'internet maintenance'. Shills go around the internet to places like this blog pretending to be gushing customers and give glowing reviews. I'm not saying that's everyone since there may be some people who are genuinely satisfied or who actually believe the company is getting unfairly badmouthed. The best anyone can really do is take everything with a grain of salt, use common sense and investigate claims where possible.

Jan 01 12:11 PM

[User 193491:]

I paid $24,000 for the PHD program in Feb 2008. How, when and where did you "get it all for $1000"?


On Nov 22 05:13 PM sam122312412421 wrote:

> Yea, umm, i dont get what your motive is in making this article,
> however I dont think its good proper to make statements without supporting
> it with evidence. Investools is currently 1000 for everything, not
> 10k, also, you dont buy on 3 indicators, you look at the trends,
> the red/green arrows and their positions, the phase 1 and 2 sections,
> F/E score, volatility, financials, and many other indicators. You
> can also see how the mutual fund movement is (in or out of a stock/sector).
> So when you may think something, you may want to simply put that
> investools is for people who will make more than $50 a month investing,
> not that it is a scam.

Jan 03 02:57 PM

[TinyMIghty:]

There are so many ways to learn about the market. But if you did not know where to start, it would be very hard decision to make. As I mentioned, there are more than one ways to learn without spending 24,000 dollars to learn about the market. I have learned a hard way. I have started out with Investools. There are tons of sources that you can go to. Just google them. I just went to MoneyShow in NY. I have learned that there are tons of educational sites are availble to learn about fundamental of the markets, technical, options, futures, and forex markets. Just do not think that Investools is the only way. I now moved to learn more option strategies from TOS and other sites including OptionsXpress, CBOE, OIC and a private organization which teaches option strategies.... Good luck to all.

Mar 08 03:04 PM

[tcby2:]

I just had a bad experience with Investools. We were told that our subscription to Investool expires on June 3rd, 2009. But they closed our account two weeks prior to that date. We called to complain. But the representative's attitude was terrible and insisted that we made mistake in the expiry date. I'm not going to use their service any more.

May 21 10:53 AM