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Perficient, Inc. (NASDAQ:PRFT)

Citi 8th Annual Small/Mid Cap Conference

November 15, 2011, 16:00 p.m. ET

Executives

Jeff Davis - President and CEO

Unidentified Analyst

[Abrupt Start] Perficient. And from Perficient we have Jeff Davis, who’s the CEO and President. And he’s just going to take us through the presentation and open the floor to questions afterwards. Okay.

Jeff Davis

Thanks. Good to be here. Thank you all for your time this afternoon. I appreciate it. I’m going to walk around a little bit during presentation. Perficient is an IT and management consulting firm. So we’re solutions based. We don’t do staff augmentations. It’s mostly a project based business, where we own the deliverables, we help clients solve problems that they have and their businesses. They can be solved through either process improvement. As I said we’re branching more in the management consulting, or through some kind of technology under penny, which is more typically the case.

Just to give you a brief overview here, this first slide, I’ll start with revenue experience through the recession. As you can see, we got impacted the most in 2009, primarily in the financial services industry, some of them are going to come back to, because we’re seeing that come back pretty strongly right now for us. But we got down too; we were kind of mid to high teens as a percent of revenue in financial services got it low as 670% in the third quarter of ’09. That’s where got impacted the most, but we’re seeing that come back.

And you can see, in general, nice recovery over the last couple of years in the business and we expect that to continue. Obviously, I’ll dive into more detail there. 17 offices throughout United States; focused mostly in the central corridor, but also branching to California, as well as Mid-Atlantic and to the Southeast.

Good growth and good performance over the past decade, really since the company’s inception, other than 2009 we grown every year. This refers to 18% compound annual growth rate organic only and the company is highly acquisitive. I’ll be doing the deeper dive in that also in a minute. But if we extend that to 2011 to the mid-point for our guidance for this year, that number is still 13.5% even through the recession. So a good, strong growth company, both again organically and through acquisitions.

To take some of the more important things here, highlight from Q3 of this year, the September quarter, revenues at 28%, but I want to point out how margins are up. So we’ve got margin expansion already occurring in the business and we’ve got additional margin expansion opportunity going forward. I’ll touch on that again later. But adjusted earnings per share, which is effectively cash earnings per share or taking out amortized, goodwill, as well stock compensation, is how we arrive that, there’s reconciliation I think in this deck. And then also, EBITDA, net of stock comp up 52%, the net income in GAAP number up 54% with top line growth to 28%. So good margin expansion.

Well, the questions I get off and I’ve gotten on one on ones and I typically do in these conferences is what are we seeing in the macro-environment. And for us right now, we’re not seeing any impact. As a matter of fact I would say, we’ve got stronger momentum than we’ve had, since the recession began. So since 2007, the latter part of the year for us has been kind of a hockey stick. Our organic growth year-over-year in the third quarter was 10%. The mid-point of our guidance for this quarter is 13% organic only, over 30% when you include the two acquisitions that we’ve done this year. So we’re actually seeing strong momentum going into 2012. As a matter of fact, our bookings year to date to the September quarter were up 25% year-over-year. Our revenue for the year is projected to be up about 8% organic, so these are both organic numbers. So the growth in book to bill you can see is pretty dramatic, which means we’ve got a good backlog going into the 2012 calendar year and a good momentum as mentioned before the fourth quarter with 13% year-over-year.

In terms of additional strength, the company’s got strong balance sheet. There’s no debt on the balance sheet. There’s a little bit of cash. We did an acquisition that used quite a bit of cash for the first part of the September quarter, but we still ended with a couple of million dollars and no debt. We do have a nice facility that we can use if we choose to, we never use it for operating depo, we don’t need to, the business generates plenty of cash for that. In spite of the fact that we’ve been pretty aggressive, we’re buying our stock back. We’ve slowed down the buy back slightly as we’ve gotten into more of an acquisition mode. However, we’re continuing it. I would say a little more opportunistic we perhaps than we have in the past. But we want to maintain an up of a buyback to offset the shares that we’re issuing is best we can out of Treasury for these acquisitions. We do have cash, our stock, again, I’m going get into that in a minute, as well some restricted stock grants that we’re doing it thoroughly. So our intention is to maintain minimal or do dilution through those two issuance vehicles.

We do offshore delivery. We call it multi-shore actually, we use hybrid approach. Our ratio of onshore to offshore is much lower than our typical competitor, more like a one to one or one to two ratio maybe a little higher than that, but not the 1 to 20 and not the departmental lists out or complete outsourcing engagements that you see, the larger firms going after and performing. We don’t head to head for that. We use it a hybrid fashion. We use it to help our customers save a little bit of money, but we also get things done on time and on budget.

And I want to point put too and this may not mean a lot to you, but it’s an important aspect of our delivery offshore. CMMI Level 5 certified offshore development, that’s an actual audit certification from Carnegie Mellon and Software Engineering Institute. It’s an ISO 9000 or quality type of an audit. CMMI Level 5 is the highest you can achieve, where we’re just recently reaudit and recertified at Level 5. But what’s most unique about that is that we are one of 10 companies in the world that have that with Agile Methodology. Agile Methodology is important for offshore, that just enables you to put iterations or whatever you’re working on back and in front of the customer very frequently, every three to four weeks.

First is a waterfall approach, which our competitors used, where it kind of goes over the wall in which you get back in six months and is what you wanted you go back start over. So it’s a much more delivery. Our clients love it. They come back for more, every time they see an opportunity uses and leverage it. It’s an ongoing relationship that we build for them.

From a client standpoint, this is broken down as you can see by verticals. Healthcare is our largest vertical and fastest growing, I’d say, absolutely and relatively. It’s about 30% of revenue now. And you also have a book, so I’m not going to go through these numbers in detail in each of this, but these orange boxes here reflect on the top the year-to-date revenue number, so percent of revenue year-to-date. And the number below that reflects the Q3 bookings, percent of Q3 bookings number. So it’s shows you the trend basically that we’re seeing in that industry.

So again, 30% right now run rate in healthcare and about 15% in financial services. So remember I said that was down as low as 6%, 7% in the third quarter of ’09, so we’re seeing a nice rebound there.

I should mention also that if you noticed some of those names, about 60%, 65% of our revenue comes from Fortune 1000 companies. We do work for smaller companies in that, we’re happy to, if they’ve got money to spend. The nice thing about Fortune 1000 though is they tend have a number of ongoing opportunities projects problems to solve. And when we establish that relationship it seems to be a multi-year, multi-million dollar relationship. About 85% or 90% of our revenue in any given year, will come from clients we served in the prior year. So this is again ongoing relationships.

Again, I am not going to go through this in detail, but you got it in the book. This gives you a deeper dive on what we’re doing in our top four industries, from a solution standpoint. So if go through there, it’ll explain close in collaboration, business intelligence, business integration, business process management, are really the top things that we deliver. Each of those, of course, involve some kind of custom application development.

To give you a little bit of the picture of what we do relative to our competitors. If you look t this, this is a pretty deep dive or pretty microscopic view of fairly narrow slice of the market that we focus on. This is what differentiates us from our competitors. We’re very, very deep in all this technologies. You see here the boxes that are in red are things that we have depth in that we do very well. The ones in orange are where we see opportunities. So we’re either greenfielding, organically growing those practices or looking to acquire them. I mentioned acquisition a number of times now, I’ll come back to that in a minute.

But if you look at the top and look at industry-based solutions I referred now couple of times to our healthcare and financial services practices. Those would have been highlighted in orange a couple of years ago. I fact, financial services would have been just six months ago. So we started building up a healthcare industry vertical focus about two years ago. And today it’s 30% of revenue, back then it was in the mid-teens. We’ve got 30 people dedicated in that practice. These are X-large consulting partners. They are people who worked in the industry. We actually have a medical doctor on staff now in that vertical. So that’s how hard we’re going after building these verticals out. It’s been a differentiator for us.

Yet a deeper dive in healthcare gives you where we think the opportunities are. I am sure you all are aware of the mandates that are out there, EDI 5010, Meaningful Use, ICD 10, all this things as they go was mandated to try to drive cost down in this industry. Those are all areas of opportunity for Perficient. We’re working with seven Blue Cross Blue Shield entities right now, including one that is a joint venture among 12 of the Blues that actually does clinch processing for not only those 12, but an additional 12 Blues. So you can see the impact that they’re going to have from ICD 10 and other mandates. Meaningful Use is another important area. We actually released a turnkey solution announcement really to turnkey solution here a few weeks ago, called Health BI, that’ll help providers generate the kind of reporting that they need to provide the government around Meaningful Use, ton of opportunity there.

Beyond the mandate and by the way this has nothing to do with ObamaCare, this are mandates that are independent to that. But beyond those mandates where we’re also enjoying a large revenue stream, certainly around business intelligence and business process improvement in both the payer and the provider, is the sort of "aha" moments that this industry has had, the paradigm shift around becoming an actual competitive industry, like so many other industries in this country.

In the past, this guys weren’t that competitive, was a very insular industry, the customer of the provider was the payer, customer, the payer was the VP of HR that they were resolving their plans to, it wasn’t the patient. And that shifting and that changing, well, this guys now have the systems to support that view, some of its mandated, some of it’s necessary to stay competitive.

You’ll be able to investigate what’s the success rate or what the staff infection rate at the hospital system, you considering having a procedure at. These guys are now absorbing the fact that you’re going to be able to do that, you’ll be eliminate choices, and they have to be competitive. They actually have to compete, they actually have to improve their business more than their competitors do. It’s kind of Classic Prisoner’s Dilemma. And about half of our revenue comes from initiatives like that that aren’t associated with mandate, but they’re associated, initiated independently by both the payers and the providers, probably primarily on the providers side, so that they can become more competitive in this new environment.

Financial services were modeling much after much the same way we did healthcare. We’ve got some staff in place, starting with folks that we’ve pulled out of big consulting as I mentioned before like healthcare. We see big opportunities here, similarly to help businesses to streamline, primarily in retail banking.

Over the past two, three, four years in the post meltdown consolidation era of financial services, and again, primarily retail banking, this are a lot of spinning going on just getting the back-office in order. A lot organization changed and a lot of system implementation that were basically banking ERP. Those are necessary things to have, but they don’t really helped fine tune the business. It gives you the consolidated financial statement that you have to have and these guys weren’t able to produce for a number of years, but are now. And but it doesn’t again contribute to the business, doesn’t make it more competitive, doesn’t make it more streamline.

A good example there, project we’re doing with Wells Fargo, actually on the TIBCO platform is developing for them, an automated workflow and mortgage underwriting system. So we’re doing both business process, improvement in business process consulting, helping them effect the change to the departments of the organization that are impacted by that system, as well as build the system. It’s an multi-million dollar opportunity. It’ll lapse we expect probably about two years, we’re about eight months into it. It’s something that we’ve done for them before.

But as I said, the system that was there before became antiquated through regulatory changes, as well as their of Wachovia. So we see that opportunity in many, many places, Anheuser is a customer, Bank of America is a customer. We actually, you probably have seen recently, Bank of America announcing additional job cuts, and sort of being concerned about that we’re actually helping them do that. So that’s the role that we’re filing or helping with BofA, just to give you a couple of examples.

The thing I think makes us different from our competitors, I said early on, we’re very deep in that fairly narrow slice of the industry. We also in the world of outsourcing and off-shoring et cetera have this hybrid approach. That allows us to be high touch with the customer, be on-site with the customer. We have great reference ability. Our rates are actually higher than our offshore competitors and they’re probably a little lower than the domestic firms, although our rates are increasing and we’re getting closer we’re closing that gap. I think that opportunity continues.

Despite all that, our win rate against these guys is 65% to 70%. We have the opportunity to propose head-to-head against Accenture, Deloitte, IBM Global Business services, Cognizant, Infosys. We beat them 65%, 70% of the time and that consistent has been for the last of couple or three years.

One of the reasons for that and one of the contributors, our key partnerships with IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, as I mentioned before, TIBCO and few others, I’m not going to go into a deep dive, but there are a few words on here that I think are keys. As an example, for Information on Demand, with IBM Information Management, they had their IOD Conference just here two weeks ago, and we were awarded a singular award there as the Top Solution Provider in North America for the year. And these relationships are important to us, they funnel some leads our way, more importantly we co sell actually with their field reps, but more importantly they’re get reference for us. If you’re implementing Web experience, you have somebody as IBM, who should I use, who should I want to parent with, more of them have going to say Perficient, same with Oracle, same with Microsoft now. Actually our Microsoft relationship has grown very strong here over the last six, 12 months. So we’ve got a kind of the opportunity right now to here take or haven’t taken either two with these partners.

New partnerships, down below here, the one that’s probably most worth highlighting are the two, actually, Google, Rackspace, where Google’s North America got two partner for their better search appliance. So if you want to use their search engine internally, externally, or whatever, you going to implement an appliance that they’re going sell you, they’re tell you that Perficient is going to do the services. Our opportunity there ranges anywhere from as little as $60,000 to over $1 million to do that. But the main reason we wanted that relationship and we embrace as much as we have is what’s Google is doing in the cloud. It’s not Google Desktop, Google Apps or Gmail, but they’re working on developing a cloud development platform. So we want to be front in center with whatever they’re announcing and whatever they’re rolling out as they move more into the enterprise architecture, enterprise application space.

Similarly Rackspace, Rackspace is growing at an incredible pace as you might know, as customers or companies are trying to move their application and their data into the cloud. Rackspace doesn’t do services other than their hosting services or the cloud services. They don’t do data migration, application migration, or integration into their private clouds back into the on-premise environment that a lot their customers ask. So they’ve got a huge need for a partner that could do those services. And that’s exactly what we’ve done, is partner with them to provide those services. They actually sought us out and we’ve embraced that and are off and running now pursuing a couple of joint opportunities as a development over the last say six weeks.

This is a deeper dive and again I won’t go through in detail other than to highlight two things for you. I’d encourage you to take a look at it. One is the margin expansion that I referred to you before. So you see that with top line growth, 28%. We talk about net income increasing 54% with top line of 28%, and that’s in the September quarter. And on the right side here, it shows you the year-to-date, so you can see the trend. So not only that we’ve grown and expanded those margins year-to-date, but trend continues to increase margin expansion, as you can see in the September quarter. And then of course there’s a reconciliation between adjusted EPS and GAAP EPS that I mentioned before.

This is going to be really tough for you to see, but the top table here actually speaks to our bill rates. I mentioned earlier that we’re expanding bill rates for closing the gap on our bill rate between ourselves and the more names of the big guys. Our rates for US domestic employees that is lower than $110 an hour in the third quarter of ’09, we’ve recovered those rates back to actually exceeded where we were pre-recession to about $126, $127. Obviously, healthcare focus is helping with that. But, generally, our skills are in higher and higher demand. We were able to get some rate pressure or rate leverage rather to move those out, so $126, $127. I think ultimately we’re a $135 to $140 an hour business and maybe beyond depending what the overall climate is. But I think $135 is doable now as burn off existing contracts and write new contracts that what we expect to be happening.

So, our goal ultimately is to get the business to $500 million run rate by the end of 2013. We’re going to do that by doing through acquisitions. We’re about $50 million in acquired revenue probably in two to three acquisitions per year and about 11%, 12%, organic growth over that spend of time. We should be able to exit 2013 at a $500 million run rate and we should be able to exit that with gross margins and EBITDA that we had pre-recession, which we were about 40% net of stock comp gross margin on services and 20% EBITDA net of stock comp on the overall business. Again that’s where we were in ’07 and we’re marching in that direction again as you can see from this slide that I showed before.

The top chart of the slide shows ABR, ABR increases. This bottom slide shows utilization. And this is a typical (inaudible) utilization pattern, so obviously it’s cyclic or seasonal. Last year you can see we ran a little hotter, this year we’ve done a little more hiring ahead, but in spite there hiring ahead we still delivered gross margin. That’s about 150 basis points higher than last year. And again, EBITDA margin, that’s about 250 basis points higher than year. And that was utilization that could actually run higher if wanted to kind of accelerate a little bit more on the utilization.

I talked about acquisitions already some. Again, three to four per year, $50 million total in any given year. We pat a trailing 12 months EBITDA multiple, five to seven range, since we restarted the program back in the beginning of 2010. We haven’t paid over six times in trailing 12 months, so there’s still I think a little bit of a discount to [be had] out there. We’ve got a great backlog by the way of opportunities. We do expect to be closing the deal probably not this year, given the late date holidays, et cetera.

But I think really next year and probably in January we should be positioned to close our next deal and then again pile that up with two or three more next year. We use half cash to have stock and you might wonder why we’re using it in the stocks since we’re buying stock at the same time and of course the answer is retention and instead of alignment. So the stock is restricted, it’s released over a three year period, 25, 25, 50 lots and that gives us enough time three years to incentivize the people, so we kept on those principals to either be a important part of the company going forward and the position that they’re excited about being in, or actually to have a successor in place.

Programs works very well, as the matter of fact we’ve got about 70% of the principles that’s joined the company through acquisition, has stayed with post lock-up and at the 30% that haven’t for the most part we’ve them out. I joined the company through acquisition. By the way most of our management team came to the company through acquisition. The nice thing about gaining talent through acquisitions is you got more than a resume, you got a track record of performance that you going to evaluate through due diligence. So we find it as a great source of adding management talent to the business. We also hired from outside and promote from within of course, but this is a good source.

So Q4 outlook, revenue guidance of $67.5 million to $72 million, so we’re closing in on that $300 million run rate as I’ve been alluding to if we get into that acquisition done in the early part of next year, we’ll be there. And kind of staying on track to that $500 million goal by the end of 2013. The mid-point of our adjusted EPS is $0.21 and for the year that’s $0.78, which will be a record for the company, by the way revenues for the year also be a record. I talk about the improved margins, improved profitability of the business and again a string momentum and outlook that we see, great bookings for the year, margin backlog both as percent of revenue as well as absolute dollars, the total dollars going into 2012 as we’ve ever had.

So this is basically just a summary of everything I just said, I won’t go through it all in detail, but certainly we think the stock is undervalued, the prices, that’s why we’re doing the buyback. We think our outlook is positive. As we seen this in pre-recession by far, if we look at this situation right, the bad thought we got going as in next year, the pricing improvement, the demand environment, you know one of the things we’ve done with the business over the last two or three years throughout the recession and into this year and going forward is position the work that we’re doing in a less discretionary part of our customers’ business. We’re much more in trans with companies doing more mission critical work than we were three, four years ago. Things were a little easy three four years ago in ’06 or ’07.

You kind of took what came your way it wasn’t that hard, we were growing 18% compound annual growth rate. As things contracted we, so stocking ourselves like everybody else does and did the things like we’ve done with healthcare, like we’ve done with financial services and some of the acquisitions that we made in management consulting that again I think entrenched us more as a formidable competitor to the big guys around management consulting, value added. We do a lot of business value calculations for our customers that go a lot of our analysis with our customers now probably justified these programs. And I think a lot of this programs kind of somewhat intuitive of what happens in the macro sense will continue on.

I certainly think that’s true for financial services and healthcare as I explained before. Financial services has to make this investments to stay competitive, their profit that they’ve lost through regulatory changes, where they need to recreate or find a way to recap and the same with healthcare. The train’s left the station there, both in the paradigm shift as well as the mandate. So I think the future is bright from our perspective. And with that, take any questions you might have.

Question-and-Answer Session

Unidentified Analyst

Yes.

Unidentified Analyst

(Question Inaudible).

Jeff Davis

The difficult competitors I couldn’t tell you exactly do they were there, but I can guarantee you they were probably two, you are looking down to three. At least most customers will start with [less than] maybe five or six and initial RFI for some kind of qualification and they are down to typically three.

In the case of Wells, we had a relationship there for quite a while. It was still competitive situation, but we were invited to compete. We’re known to them and to many actually as a strong TIBCO service provider. We’re actually a largest TIBCO service provider in the country except for TIBCO themselves. So they are largest competitor for TIBCO. But I guarantee, it would have been Accenture, probably somebody offshore Cognizant or someone like that as well.

And you know you asked a great question, we got 75 full sales people that mining accounts in their territories and the cities that mentioned before that we’re at 17 cities and partnering with our partners, with IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, and TIBCO. And where we find opportunities and probably as considering buying those software’s, we will obviously going to pursue the services there.

And like I said the case of Wells, it’s an ongoing relationship, it’s still competitive. And that’s why 65% to 70% run rate once we have the opportunity get the table. Our challenge is that we’re not a household maniac, but we’re doing a lot by the way, in terms of brand building, especially in this verticals healthcare to a lesser degree financial services. But in healthcare, particularly there’s a good bit of name recognition among a lot of the trade magazines in that industry and a lot of the consultants consulting to that industry, if you will, the Gartner's of the healthcare industry. So we’re building that reputation.

Unidentified Analyst

Just in terms of that third acquisition, reflect more or like it will next year now. And looking at I guess the long-term, the backlogs there the billing looks like it’s in the right direction and something like that. But relative to guidance since it is estimated some like that, where do you think the Street is relative to that third acquisition I mean needed the third (inaudible) fourth quarter.

Jeff Davis

Sorry, it’s not in there at all, yeah, for the fourth quarter or next year. Yeah, it’s not included in our guidance or in any of the consensus.

Unidentified Analyst

A couple of questions, since you do two, three acquisitions a year, can you talk a little bit about the integration process that you used to tie together the assets that you purchase?

Jeff Davis

Yeah, that’s worthy. We’ve done 16 acquisitions since 2004, so it’s something that we got down to a bit of science. Integration begins really with due diligence and a lot of the integration activities are ready to roll on day one, starting with significant detailed communication plan both to the employees of the acquired company as well as their customers. The two key assets that we’re acquiring.

And along with that we shutted their website, it’s a very quick, we believe, very much incomplete integration. There’s no micro-branding, none of that sort of things. We shutted their website, we reach out to their customers immediately, including phone calls from myself depending on the level of customer or some of their executive within our company.

And again Town Hall, we will actually go see the employees et cetera that what starts, and within 30 days they’re on our payroll, they’re on our time and expense entry systems, they’re on our email, all systems are turned-over and rolled over within the first 30 days. That’s the tactical integration. The more strategic integration of course is training our sales people on selling whatever scale we’ve just gained and taking that scale into our existing accounts and our existing market relationships and vice versa.

We want this guys, which are probably going to be a typically a homogenous skill set business, one platform. And they’ve deep relationships with a handful of clients, typically we want them to take back our portfolio those client as well. And that takes about six month, but a great example, Exervio that we acquired in the second quarter of this year, hit the ground running immediately. They’re in Charlotte that was one of reason we targeted them for the financial service as well as the fact that premier healthcare, largest GPO in the country, one of our largest accounts as well, happens to be in Charlotte also.

So we were able to introduce their management consulting skills that they’re into business and they’re running $1 million a quarter now of opportunities or services to Premier customer they didn’t know before we acquired and with services and skills that we couldn’t have provided to (inaudible) have it before.

Unidentified Analyst

I guess, a couple of more questions. One is operating margins, I notice early towards the upper single-digits?

Jeff Davis

What was that again?

Unidentified Analyst

Operating margin percentage.

Jeff Davis

Yeah, operating margin.

Unidentified Analyst

Yeah. What’s the scope for expansion, because as I look at some of your competitors like in Accenture, or so on, they tend to have margins in the low to mid teens. And of course, the Indian model companies has significantly higher margin in that. But that looks like a complete [attrition] model.

Jeff Davis

Yeah. That’s right. If you go back to really ’06, ‘05, ’07 timeframe and look at us compared to Accenture or anybody else we were the top domestic public firm in terms of the operating margin or EBITDA. And I think we can get back to that. I think the different between us and Accenture has to do with how they run their business and some of the business philosophy there. But we’re actually bringing down our cost.

We gave 3% comp increases this year. But even while giving 3% comp increases, we actually brought our base salary down by 1%, by bringing in more less experienced resources and building out the base of our pyramid. We’re still a young company and as we mature we’re going to have the opportunity if we gain larger longer term projects to bring in lesser skill, lesser experienced, lower cost resources. That’s one of the things we’re doing and then plus, of course, expanding the or closing rather the bill rate gap between us and those big guys, it gives that opportunity.

You know, why are their margins, what they are, you can test them. I think their utilization lower than it could be and I don’t, I worked there. I worked at both Andersen as well as E&Y [Ernst & Young]. And I saw a lot of bureaucracy in maybe some way. So, we’re very lean and we’re very aggressive on what we do. My experience both when I was there and here, is people like to be busy, people don’t like to sit around. And (inaudible) so to speak. So we believe in trying to keep our folks busy all the time, not from a (inaudible) standpoint but just from, I think, a mental health standpoint.

Unidentified Analyst

Jeff, you mentioned a 65% win rate on business that you compete for. Is it possible to sort of dissect that and look at the win rate on projects that you are competing for where you already have a relationship with that company versus somewhere where you’re and you at the table competing for the project?

Jeff Davis

I’d say it’s about equal actually. We do a lot of takeaways as well. We recently there’s, I think there’s several examples where we’ve gone into a situation, a competitive situation where we didn’t have a prior relationship with the customer and I’d say the win rates are still about the same. You know that’s a guestimate, I think you do the analysis, but if they are lower they’re not much lower. A lot of our long-term clients started that way. So now we might have (inaudible), but when we first went into FordDirect, which is a multi-million dollar year relationship, Blue Cross Blue Shield at Massachusetts, Hitachi Data Systems, et cetera, et cetera, I can go on and on, with our clients now that we expect to have for years and some of those we have every year, all started competitively against one of those guys.

Unidentified Analyst

Thank you everyone. That’s all the time we have for questions. Thank you.

Jeff Davis

Thank you, all, appreciate it.

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