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Quidel Corporation (NASDAQ:QDEL)

Goldman Sachs Healthcare Conference Call

June 05, 2012 06:20 pm ET

Executives

Doug Bryant - President & CEO

Randy Steward - CFO

Analysts

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

Thanks everybody for attending. Isaac Ro from Goldman Sachs; I am the Life Science analyst here and certainly happy to have the management team from Quidel here with us today. So you know as with all the other presentations I want to make sure that I will keep it as interactive as possible and so by all means please don't be shy to ask a question. Raise your hand if you like anytime in the conversation and we will be sure of calling you and for those of you on the webcast as well, please feel free to ping me with an email if you want. I am happy to read back your question anonymously of course and we will go from there.

So with that as a backdrop, Doug if you maybe first get everyone situated. There has been a lot of going on at Quidel in evolving the company over the last couple of years and Doug to make sure we get proper context, so if you could spend a few minutes and can give us a background on the company and your key financial goals for this year that will be great.

Doug Bryant

Okay sure, terrific. The company has been around for a while. The history of the company actually is predominantly rapid point of care diagnostic test as early as 1985 we developed and commercialized a pregnancy test fold truly thereafter by a group based prep test. And then in the 1999 we co-developed with Glaxo the first flu assay which has had several iterations to that product. And so for the most part up until about 2008, we for the most part a company that participated very nicely in the rapid point of care diagnostics space. I came on Board in 2009. The Board gave me the mandate of diversifying our product portfolio, developing a broader based diagnostic business, a business that's certainly less dependent on flu. We don't mind the seasonality of flu. We dislike it when we don't see any flu at all.

But certainly the seasonality doesn't bother us; it’s the volatility that is a big concern for us. Beginning in 2009, the first step in the process was to bring on board R&D talent, also business development talent. We began creating a pipeline basically from scratch and we focused on a couple of different areas; we focused on a next generation platform to stabilize our presence in the space in which we compete today and then we embarked on molecular diagnostic and the other and I certainly can talk a little bit more about that if you like.

We did effectively three deals if you will. We entered into a collaborative agreement with a company called BioHelix; BioHelix is in the R&D that has now created the world’s first handheld molecular device called AmpliVue and will be launching that first product here in the US in Q4. We also entered into an agreement with Northwestern University who had developed a novel extraction technology that will become the basis for the cartridge that goes into our integrated platform.

And then we also did an acquisition; we spent in early 2010, $130 million on a company called DHI, Diagnostic Hybrids. And the two major things that we got there were R&D synergies they had significant molecular diagnostic and assay development capability and they had an awesome group of scientists who are terrific at characterizing and developing monoclonal antibiotics.

Fast forward to last year, last year was a year in which we finally saw some of the fruits of all that investment. We had four assays cleared here in the United States and to be marketed. Each of those was a 510(k) clearance. And during the period, we also saw a number of technical issues so that in this year, 2012, we should see an acceleration in the topline -- an acceleration in terms of product development and currently we have five assays in clinical trials in the United States and so we expect to see a little bit of productivity gain this year is such that in 2013 we actually see topline acceleration.

Two major things that were milestones for us; we’re launching a product called Sofia. We’re also launching the AmpliVue C. difficile product. Both of those should be responsible for pretty good lift 2013 longer terms in terms of our goals, we’ve stated publicly before that by 2015 we expect to be around $250 million in revenues. That’s about $100 million more than we have today. Big drivers to that of course are the Sofia platform as well as the molecular platform.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

And maybe just start with Sofia and give us a little more depth as to the customer, what your experience will look like, how do you compare that competitively against some of the other offerings in the marketplace?

Doug Bryant

Today, here in the United States we’ve launched just Sofia with the flu product and so my comparison competitively is only there I can say that we knew that we had something as we were developing and this assay is actually about 100% more sensitive than our legacy products. So we knew that we would see during the clinical trials better performance for both sensitivity to flu A and flu B. We didn’t realize how well it would compare with PCR.

Our first experience was in Germany where (inaudible) Children’s Hospital evaluate the product comparing it with the (inaudible) institute’s PCR methodology and with the circulating viruses in Germany during that study we were 98% sensitive for flu A against their PCR, so we thought well that’s almost too good to be true, but subsequent to that we’ve had a number of studies now performed in the US and I was just reading another abstract this morning a hospital down in the Southwest same sort of study running about 96% sensitivity on flu A and 100% sensitivity versus flu B.

So the customer experience has been actually very positive, very surprising and given what they now see as an improvement in performance, we are seeing two things, one is that customers are putting Sofia out in the front in the satellite clinics and then the ERS and they are now just refluxing the negative specs out, so that’s probably the most interesting aspect.

And then secondly, we had assumed long that we would see as we launch them in the hospital systems about 50% cannibalization and right now, our cannibalization rate is only about 40% so in other words 60% of our placements are relying in the customer sites where we never had the business, so far so good, but we have to see how we do through Q2 and Q4 building up to the next flu season.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

And if you look at your hurdles to define sets of this product cycle you know what do you think the time arises and when you measure that as a three year event or a two season event like that and then secondly do you think about market share what is the right way look at, how much you think you can capture incrementally?

Doug Bryant

Well, I am really big on leading indicators rather than waiting for two or three years and looking at the lag of measures. I think that we will know pretty soon the number of Sofia placements above which that we are not too concerned about our competition for some period of time. How that translates to market share that's difficult to say, but if you are just talking about flu, I see several points gained in the hospital and I see probably a modest gain in the physician offices going forward.

The best leading indicator I can think of to determine how successful this will be, will be the number of placements as we exit 2012. And right now we are focused on Q3 on getting customers ready for the next flu season in which they normally saw prior to the school startup. So Q3 becomes an important quarter, obviously Q4 everybody ramps up before what they expect to see in terms of flu.

At that time, we also expect to have RSV Strep. We will have strep pneumo and regional to Europe. We will also have launched ACG for pregnancy and then we have a number of others in development that we expect to see in 2013 as well. All-in-all total programs for Sofia under development line now totals 15 different assays.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

I want to ask one more question on that product as you build out a menu. As you think about the competitive landscape and the extent to which you have other players well flue are seen in other adjacent products and point taken on the performance, but some of the other players had attempted to be in those markets and how do you think about pricing and an ability to sort of realize the share gains that you want to realize against those players if in fact that's one of the dynamics to point out?

Doug Bryant

Right now effectively we are pricing at the same price we have for our current [visually read] product. So on average in the hospital systems today, our average selling price is something north of $16. Our cost of goods sold is obviously dramatically less than that; so we have considerable room to maneuver, but so far have not had to. Why? Because you are getting an objectively right answer. Its interface-able to an internet cable to a laboratory information system. There are so many other factors that contribute to the placement other than just the product’s performance.

I will say that the interesting opportunity is, in 2009 because of the pandemic and the relative performance of these legacy rapid point of care diagnostic tests, because the performance was not viewed to be very good, some volume did go to the molecular category and some people have estimated that as much as 8% of that volume went away. I see not only market share gain as a possibility, but I also see calling back some of the 8% in volume loss that we had at that time.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

Okay. Let me just switch over to the overseas market. I think so far we've been mostly talking about the dynamics as they relate to the US, you know maybe give us a sense of how you think these assets can perform for you outside the US both in developed regions like Europe as well as emerging markets?

Doug Bryant

Sure, starting with emerging markets, a lot of folks look at China and India as opportunities you know I will just tell you openly we don't have a lot of feet on the ground in those areas. We did established last year a wholly owned foreign enterprise in China. We've had numerous meetings with the Chinese CDC. I have had discussions with the SFDA regarding some of our products. We’ve actually began to ship some of our DFA products into China. I think it’s not significant progress but there is some progress.

India, we really have not actually addressed at all. We do see interesting opportunities in Japan for a number of our products. We’ve had success in Korea already in fact for a while the Korean market was the largest acquire of Sofia early on; and now obviously passed by the US. But and then the European market it is difficult because of reimbursement to see how some of these products do extremely well, but I do see an opportunity for some things like (inaudible) move from traditional cell based (inaudible) assays to molecular methods and I am really interested to see how well we do with the sample of new product going forward.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

And then maybe if you talk about your stand on your sales force approaching the various customers both domestic and abroad; how do you look at trying to sell into the physician office versus the more industrial, commercial scale labs where you have more buyer?

Doug Bryant

Well today because of the acquisition of the DHI we have a sales force that has a history of selling into LabCorp and Eco Quest and the very large clinical biology labs. In total, in the US there are about a 1,000 of those and over 700 of those are our customer. So we really do have a pretty good relationship at the very high end of the market. But to be fair as you move down where we have covered the market to our distribution partners our relationships are not as deep. And we will definitely have to demonstrate that we can to sell product in a small hospital setting.

So I would say, we actually have pretty good strength at the high end and we’re not as strong at the low end. In the physician segment, we have a relationship with the key distribution partners today who are PSS, (inaudible). Those three together represent a pretty big chunk of our US physician office lab sales. So I think we’re well positioned on that end. We do have the capability to cover the larger physician offices, I would say at the top 2000 customers that represent probably two-thirds of our sales. We have reached in to those customers but beyond that we’re completely reliant on the big distributors.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

Yes, one more question on distribution. It seems to me kind of two kind of counteracting forces that one is in your physician practices very quickly been folded back in hospitals, potentially secular and not necessarily cyclical trend. And so theoretically, you have some of the distribution measure there dealing with fewer, often you reach access to fewer customers in that front. Same time, a lot of technologies are getting easier to use and becoming more diffuse and they touch where the lab, where the test gets performed. You know, you put them together, how do you balance the expectation you have for growth in the flu market over the next five years? Is it structurally going to see more testing done at the periphery or does it actually get consolidated more to the central lab?

Doug Bryant

I don’t see the consolidation to the central labs. So I do see as consolidation of the decision making and so for example. You can imagine a sales process that originates in an [IBM] that has numerous hospitals and probably several IPAs and I see decisions being made to use various platforms.

But the beauty of point of care is you are testing where the patient actually is and for things that the quick answer is actually useful, the patient sitting in front of you with symptoms of RC or flu doctor diagnoses the situation perhaps confirms with the diagnostic assaying and knows what to do. I don’t see the value of that consolidating significantly but I will say if the product performance of this point of cure assays is not nearly as good as it is at the central lab and that would be certainly contrary to what I just said. But for the most part with the instrument like Sofia you get dramatically improved performance that is just likely going to get something back to the central lab.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

And main in technologically regeneration in is your way from fully realizing that paradigm or what you think you know technology is mixing about to make that happen?

Doug Bryant

To do what Isaac?

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

I think to have it so that every physician is fully comfortable running these tests in their lab may be even without a lab facility but just with their own two hands rather than technician?

Doug Bryant

Sure, sure first of all the venue is going to be very important and big chunk of our resources right now are being applied towards many development on Sofia, for the things that the physician routinely sees is those test need to be available but they also have to be simple enough. So assays that require some sort of extraction are often playable profits are, outside of the cartridge processing those are going to be difficult for physicians to do whether that is our AmpliVue product which is obviously way too complicated for physician or even a vitamin D assay on Sofia if I have to do a offline extraction in other words I have got to break up that 25 OH molecule. If I got to do that offline will the FDA allow that to be classified as clear ways because thereafter all the steps are just like for flu RSV or Strep or whatever. So there will be, there still will be things that cannot be done in a position for us.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

The first conversation we talked a little bit about financials and talked about to start off gross margin you know you've obviously got inherent volatility as you touched on at the beginning with the flu season but if we look at sort of ways you get number one from an operational perspective trying to make it that what sort of initiatives can you put out there or do you have any works that would help handle that and then secondly what would be the contribution in gross margin from the new products.

Doug Bryant

Yeah, well, each of these new products is accretive to our gross margins today. The AmpliVue product we just talked about foresee that we expect to be at least 80% gross margin that's higher than our typical gross margins today. Clearly lessening the reliance upon the flu assay will help stabilize our gross margins and so you shouldn't see so much volatility there.

But all the Sofia products should be accretive. I just mentioned the AmpliVue products will be accretive; the Bobcat product by virtue of the fact that you are increasing the price on the slide is also accretive. So I think for us to make sure that we have improving gross margins over time, we simply need to introduce new products that are accretive to the P&L and have more of a diversified, balanced set of products over time.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

So it really sounds to me like the gross margin is always mostly going to be driven by new product backfill into lesser extent by operational you know very, very important for the operating structure?

Doug Bryant

That's fair to say I would say we have had some success at reducing costs and improving productivity but clearly what we have done at DHI is an important example. We have pretty significantly improved our gross margins for those products by improving yields putting in different processes to make sure that we reduce scrap etcetera. So we have goals for ourselves of doing at and I like those because those are absolutely permanent cost reductions and to me they are very meaningful. But in terms what’s going to drive it the most it’s actually probably more, well obviously more heavily weighted towards the new products.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

If you look at the operating line long-term guidance 2015 plus you guide to 13% or higher margin as a goal, at the same time you are investing in the sales and marketing channel. You got new products coming out. So what kind of expense flexibility do you have to invest in the business while at the same time driving those margins higher from the new product?

Doug Bryant

The expense associated with the commercial infrastructure is already in the ongoing rate today. The only reason we would increase that going forward is if we see good receptivity of these new products that we are launching. So for us as I said we will take a close look at Q3 and Q4 to look at the uptake on Sofia. We will launch the AmpliVue to see this product in Q4, so I would say sometime in early 2013 we’re going to know if we have a winner and any investment we would make in terms of enlarging our commercial infrastructure would be clearly outweighed by the upside you see in the top line and the bottom line. The other thing I should point out is and this is obvious by looking at our historical financials, in 2009 when we had pretty big volumes of flu test, you saw that our gross margins were 32% to 33%, operating margins.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

Operating margins, yes?

Doug Bryant

Which demonstrates pretty good leverage in the P&L and we have really good capacity still in the plant that we have in San Diego we are about 50% utilization and so volume for us matters and these new product should create more volume and actually we should see some improvement on the bottom line.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

Okay, if we kind of look forward from here we got a snap shot of what we got today, longer term you mentioned some of the other technologies that you have in development and most distinctively I think the Wildcat I believe and the cartridge based technology that used the concept of cartridge based you know diagnostics seems to give the idea that being easy to do is certainly popular. So talk a little bit about how you plan to approach that market and that segment of customers and how do you define what winning part looks like?

Doug Bryant

Okay sure the principal strategy with Wildcat the instrument referred developing with Northwestern is to use this proprietary extraction technology. This is the same technology that we recently got the notice followed from the PTO firm. It is first in the series of patents on the technology. This is the technology that will allow us to dramatically reduce the cost of the cartridge. The cost of cartridge is a big driver to a number of things. First of all, just their ranging cost itself deliver to the customer but also the instrument system itself and the cost of the instrument. We fully expect by the end of this year to have the cartridge design completed and I am pretty comfortable in saying that we're going to hit our goals of developing a cartridge that is significantly less expensive than what you see out there today. That allows us to do a couple a things.

One is we will be able to deliver for the Northwestern Global Health Foundation an inexpensive HIV viral load assay, which is the primary thing we're trying to deliver. But in doing so, we will also be imminently affordable anywhere else on the planet. So I think that one of the reasons that we don't see a greater decentralization of molecular testing, whereas some people call it the democratization of molecular testing, is because of the cost.

And so, getting your instrument built for less than $10,000 a copy, getting cartridges that are in the $2 or $3 range COGS is going to be really important to driving down into the hospitals that don't traditionally do molecular testing today. So that really is the strategy. I don't think it's particularly clever. I think the cleverness comes from the fact that we've finally got something that's going to enable us to do that.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

And then over that timeframe, how do you expect the competitive landscape to develop? There's obviously an [incumbent] today. There maybe one or two more that will have some more interesting menu available by that timeframe. So if you're going to be sort of in that mix of players that are either established or leader of market, what do you need to do to differentiate beyond just price?

Doug Bryant

I would say that there are three things that we need to do to ensure our success with Wildcat. First, we need to assume I think there is a window. I think your point is a good one. There are other competitive entrants other than those that are actually already in the market. And everybody has the same idea it seems. So soon is very important.

And then as I pointed out, delivering it at the cost that we say that we're going to is going to be critical. And then finally, I will say maybe more important or at least equally important with the other two is menu. I see a lot of new technology being launched with only one or two assays, and that's really hard to do.

You're asking your commercial organization to do really the impossible, to convince a laboratory customer that they need another instrument sitting on the bench that's only going to run one thing. It's a very difficult thing. So a big reason for us spending so much time developing PCR-based assays is not to go put these assays on other people's thermocyclers -- although that's certainly possible -- but rather to have a ready-made menu that's available at launch with Wildcat.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

And when you say ready-made menu, is that five assays, 50? What's the right -- what's the number that you find commercially exciting?

Doug Bryant

Well, we've already developed more than five. So I -- if you want to be just ambitious, I think we're aiming for 20. What I'd like to see is the number of different respiratory issues solved. I'd like to see the stool bench replaced. In other words, assays that are done in the large labs today that predominantly are LVTs, I'd like to see those assays.

And I think there's a couple other interesting categories, but those in total should give a pretty interesting menu at launch. Longer-term with size, I can see us adding HIV and HCV and others to the box. And I see longer-term somebody is going to be a consolidator of menu. And I don't think you can do it for probably fewer than 20 assays.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

Got it, interesting. That'd be a very interesting thing to watch. Now, if we put that in context of the current business you have today, you'll be supporting several different platforms. Have kept them all going? Is that the direction you intend to go or would the current business kind of consolidate into the Wildcat platform overtime?

Doug Bryant

Well, for the immediate future, we're going into execution mode. And we're focused on Sofia and AmpliVue, because I really want to make sure I understand what the opportunity there is. But you are right, longer-term the goals will change.

As we get closer to launch of Wildcat, we'll know what we have, we'll know our competitive advantages, we'll also know our competitive weaknesses and we'll make the call at that time. I don't think any organization can do more than two things at once. And so, I think it's just a matter of determining which other things that we have in front of us we will prioritize at that time.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

So it sounds like there's a lot of opportunities that you're well aware, but theoretically if it were to not pan out, you'd be quick to pull the cord and realign?

Doug Bryant

Or maybe not pull the cord so much, Isaac, but certainly not make it a focus. Let me give you an example. We had four shots on gold that we talked about at our Analyst Day in Boston last March. Two of those look really good. We're going to focus there. That doesn't mean we're not interested in the other two. We're just not spending time every Friday morning talking about those two things.

We're talking about the others. We're still going to launch Bobcat. We're still going to make it available to our big virology customers. I think they're waiting for it. But it's not as important as those other two. And like I said, I could be wrong about all this, but philosophically, I think you can only do two things as an organization at once, and you've got to stick to it.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

Okay. Let me stop there for a minute and see if we have questions from the audience. Anyone want to raise their hands?

Question-and-Answer Session

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

No questions. Okay, all right. So pretty conclusive; if you think about the competitive environment for molecular elsewhere, you're seeing a lot of hardware, you're not seeing a ton of new content, and you're seeing tons of cash being invested because a lot of cash is available either on balance sheets or through the credit market.

So when you look at sort of what you're seeing around you, does that impact how look at allocating the capital that you have? And when you see other players that are new to the market getting to diagnostics, for example, how does that evolve your thinking about who you're playing against?

Doug Bryant

Well, first in terms of viewing what others are doing in their development, I think we're somewhat unaffected. We take a more frugal approach to what we're doing. I think we have a very nice balance on the Wildcat program between internal development, use of the folks at Northwestern and a third-party. We clearly, I think, are making the right trade-offs between speed-to-market and spend.

And right now, we're sort of committed to staying right about that $30 million per year in R&D spend. It doesn't sound like a lot, but frankly, our guys are pretty productive. And we have about as much as we can handle now.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

Maybe Randy or Dave, if you want to answer the question around other aspects of the financials that investors probably haven't focused on. For example, is there an opportunity in your mind below the line to try and drive incremental earnings growth through better tax planning or things of that nature? How do you look at some of the things as a CFO you can do to help drive profitability in your growth?

Randy Steward

Yeah, certainly we think there's an opportunity, especially as we expand globally, to drive down our effective tax rate, which is in the 35%, 36% rate currently. I think from a balance sheet, capital structure, very efficient with our cash usage. We've paid down a significant part of our senior credit facility.

So as we entered or left the first quarter, we had $21 million of cash on the balance sheet. Senior credit facility was about $19 million. So we think we have a lot of flexibility and opportunity to continue to support the operations and the growth as we go forward.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

An optimal capital structure, do you have a range in mind, given where your business is at right now?

Randy Steward

You're seeing as far as just a -- talking about leverage -- yeah, we currently -- our currently facility is at three times, which we think is three times the EBITDA leverage, which we think is adequate for our business. But I think we have great partners with our banks. And I think that they'd give us flexibility if we saw a good opportunity here in the next couple of years or so. Certainly, they would definitely work with us.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

And then just getting back to your prior question on the tax range and the impact of emerging markets, how do you look at -- in three or five years' time, what the emerging markets or ex-U.S. percentage of business should be if all goes well, given the product pipeline and your international investments?

Doug Bryant

Well, we'd like it to be significantly higher. Of course, it's going to have to grow pretty rapidly to catch up with the U.S. give what we're doing in launching the new products. So I would be surprised if we are more than 20%, 25% by 2015, even though we expect some level of growth. We are making some investments.

We're doing I think the right things in a measured fashion. But it's just given Sofia launch here and the C. diff launch here; it's going to very difficult to change that ratio dramatically. On your tax thing as well, we are acutely interested in the tax situation, and we are taking some steps to make sure we're manufacturing in parts of the United States that are better -- I don't know how specific I should be.

But we're sitting here in California, and we probably won't be manufacturing more stuff here than we are today. And we probably will make more stuff in Ohio than we do here today. The other thing that's different where we're located is the cost of power. The cost of power is a lot higher here than it is in the state of Ohio.

So all these things that we're talking about that are new, particularly the molecular manufacturing, that's not going to be done here, that's going to be done in Ohio.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

Is there a way to measure the incremental benefit as you move your base to Ohio or elsewhere?

Randy Steward

Yeah, we have an internal hurdle rate that certainly, as Doug mentioned, will certainly help us expand our gross profit margin over the next several years. Certainly, we think that will help us by 2 or 3 percentage points or so as we do that consolidation and move manufacturing to more efficient locations.

Doug Bryant

And there are other incentives. It's not news but there are other incentives of hiring people in places like Ohio that we can certainly take advantage of. We did that previously and I see us doing that moving forward as well.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

And incremental IP and that sort of thing, could you see domiciled in low-cost regions and things of that nature that could really give you a more [supportive] tax rate?

Randy Steward

There's a possibility that's not in the next year or two, but certainly there's that opportunity, absolutely.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

Okay. Well, last one from me here and I'll let you guys go. This is obviously a work in progress. The technology is coming up. If we were to look at the next 12 to 18 months two or three biggest catalysts that you see that will help you kind of determine success or failure or go, no-go decisions on the various platforms?

Doug Bryant

Well, the three that we mentioned; Sofia placements, new development there. We definitely want to test out AmpliVue and see how well we do there. And then, boy, I'd love to see us lock down our cartridge design on Wildcat before the end of the year.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

And will you communicate the cartridge fees over earnings calls or future presentations? Will we get an update there?

Doug Bryant

I think so. I think the best way to do that might be an Analyst Day, where we actually have guys come describe where we're at and where we're going and what Wildcat looks like.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

When might that happen? Have you guys kind of got a range of time?

Doug Bryant

Yeah. I'd love to be able to talk about things positive, so I'm kind of waiting to see how we do with the upcoming launch of Sofia, and sometime after that. I was hoping for this fall but you know what, I don't know if it's been long enough to say quite yet.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

Okay.

Doug Bryant

So, maybe early 2013.

Isaac Ro - Goldman Sachs

Okay, well, we'll stay tuned. All right, thank you guys. Thank you for coming too.

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