eBay Bares Its Ugly New Face 88 comments
Timothy Church
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John Donahoe, eBay's (EBAY) newly elected CEO and president, has yet to take his role, and yet has caused the largest rift between eBay and the eBay community ever.
eBay's position is strong, no arguing this point. But, the question is, has eBay peaked? Is there room for growth? Is it all downhill for eBay from here?
The answer to this question is being debated among investors. Personally, I cannot help but wonder how Donahoe's direction can strengthen its position with the choices they are making.
Donahoe has made it clear he wants to rid eBay of its "fleamarket" image, by eliminating those very people who made eBay the strongest online market place in the world. The idea is that by ridding itself of the low-priced items, they can concentrate on larger retailers, and boost revenues with higher end items.
Sounds great, right? On paper, yes. In reality, however, not a chance.
Donahoe has taken a huge risk here. By alienating your members, Donahoe loses those same people he needs to buy from his wealthier retailers.
Of course, that is the problem with any dictator. When you crush and defeat your community with iron fist dictatorship, your community falls apart. Unlike terrorized communities, however, eBay cannot force its community to stay. Therefore, defections are not only likely, but, a reality that will hurt eBay's image, and bottomline.
Let's look at the image of the new eBay, and ask yourself, is this the company and the image you want to invest your money into?
1. A man who's leadership has caused TWO planned boycotts within one year? (Feb. 18-25th, 2008, and an open-ended boycott slated for May 1st, coinciding with the new feedback policy changes).
2. A company who has people questioning eBay stock manipulation. (The question has been raised as to what is happening with eBay execs dumping stocks in huge numbers).
3. A man who's idea of great leadership is to hurt those people who have helped create the eBay corporation, by virtually pushing out families who depend on their main source of income. These include single parents (many with handicapped children), retirees, disabled persons who would rather not abuse the system, but, can still be productive members of society by working on a schedule that suits them, students and so many others.
4. A man who is willing to take unnecessary risks, with your money. Rather than pace and research the effects of his ideas, Donahoe is forcing ideas that could actually cripple the eBay name.
5. A man who spins and denies the truths. Donahoe had more spin in one week than eBay has had in all the previous years. Unfortunately for investors, his spin was based more in untruth than in reality.
He and his media consultants have said the week-long boycotta had little or no effect on its bottom-line.
Oh really? Is this why eBay's listings were by down 3-4 million listings, the week prior to the boycott? Let's understand the actual amounts of money we are talking here. The lowest insertion fee is .20 and is for items under $1.00. The typical user lists between 24.99-49.99 and $50.00-199.99 which was $1.20 and $2.40. Additionally, eBay has many "extras" that can be added to enhance the visibility of one's auctions. These include extra photos, at .15 per photo, and double category listings, which doubles all the fees including extras, which can double the highest listing fee of $4.80 to 9.60, and all the extra photos, gallery fees, highlight, or even bold lettering.
In other words, eBay can make more off all the extras than they do on just the listing fees. Based solely on a very conservative 3 million auctions, and the 1.20 listing fee as an average, NO extras, and not including their commission fees, starting at 5.25% eBay's losses are incredible: $3.6 million PER DAY! Now imagine all the extras and you can see how much damage Donahoe has caused eBay already. Oh, yeah, and let's not forget, he hasn't even taken office yet. Yet, his plans are already costing investors money!
And then comes round two.
Donahoe thinks that the worst has passed. Not according to www.myspace.com/boycottebay which announced this week that eBay will be faced with a boycott far worse than the young company has ever seen. According to said website, this past boycott has enabled eBay members to unite, and become a strong force, like never before. And while those involved with "spreading the word" none of the "leaders" of that boycott planned it. Yet, they have become the loudest and most vocal boycott chapters. And, their sister site on DelphiForums is boasting message views of over 10,000 a day for the last week, and 10 of the last 13 days.
Together, these two sites are saying they are taking the time between now and May 1st to organize the largest strike, and they will not back down until either eBay agrees to their terms, or, Donahoe is replaced, and the changes be re-evaluated for the better of the entire community. Team leaders say they are willing to discuss negotiations with ebay executives; but, such requests have fallen on deaf ears.
The new face of eBay. Is this a company you can afford to invest in?
Disclosure: Author owns no eBay stock. He is an eBay member and is currently supporting the eBay boycott.
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This article has 88 comments:
blog.auctionbytes.com/...
ebayboycott.info/forum.../
I will no longer buy or sell on GreedBay
Check out: www.powersellersunite..../
Another LARGE Group of unhappy Members.
forums.delphiforums.co...
Please, do not let this happen. Keep up the boycott and move to other sites. don't let the politics of big buisness fool you into thinking you can't win!
PEACE :)
As to whether another boycott is the answer. No, the real answer is to use alternative sites like Tazbar.com and eBid.net and dump ebay altogether. When the alternatives become as strong as ebay was, then both buyers and sellers will have real choice. Sticking with eBay on the basis of past traffic is foolishness, sellers should take control of their own destiny, not have it dictated by eBay and its ridiculous policies. Don't weaken if eBay make any concessions, until you have created a realistic challenger elsewhere to eBay's current market domination.
Enough!!
Donahoe has LIED to the public, to the eBay membership, to stockholders, and likely the SEC will be next.
THIS is the man they chose to succeed Meg? Meg was bad enough; she built a company of hugely expensive mistakes (Skype), a company that has virtually NO customer service, a place where scammers have free rein because eBay refuses to implement any kind of user verification, she opened eBay to Chinese merchants peddling counterfeit junk with astronomically high shipping charges (shipping charges not being refundable, the buyer is basically screwed when they realize this "rare" artifact is a factory-produced fake). She alienated the only truly effective customer service eBay had (the volunteers who spend countless hours helping other member in the Answer Center) by implementing insulting and ineffective rating boxes and refused to hear reason when it was PROVEN that the boxes would harm users by sorting incorrect answers to the top of searches.
SHE was bad enough . . . SHE alienated many members due to her lack of caring for the eBay community . . . and now we have THIS? Instead of mending the fences SHE damaged, HE decides to just rip down the fences and chase the "noisy" herd from the pasture altogether?
Well, guess what . . . the herd is stampeding to where the grass is clearly greener, and so are the profits we get to keep.
This isn't a boycott. It's a walkout.
No wonder eBay is full of crooks and scammers . . . birds of a feather, you know.......
Well, guess what, eBay? IT has left the building.
BOYCOTT VICTORIOUSLY . . . until they get IT.
I am a small seller and an occassional buyer....oops I meant I was.
I can see no way to sell on FeeBay and make a profit without passing the fees on to my buyers.
I cannot nor will not do that.
I have always found a way to find my packing items free so I do not charge a handling fee, and I charge exact shipping, yet with the new star system I get dinged for shipping as Feebay tells the buyer 4* is reasonable yet holds the seller to a 4.6* in order to get the "new discounts".
They do not educate their buyers and leave it up to the community to do so, and this usually happens only after a seller has recieved a ding or worse a NEGATIVE Feedback they did not deserve because FeeBay has not educated this person on how the system actually works for a buyer.
If you have a problem and do try to get it resolved you usually end up with a form letter in return from a computer that is quite generic in terms and usually has nothing to do with the initial problem at hand.
Live Help is a joke and usually referred to as "LIFELESS" help due to the fact these people usually have no idea on how to solve or resolve the problem at hand, and this I also blame on lack of training or education to the FEEBAY system.
Now to try to contact them by phone.......well lets just say this " Has it ever been done???? "
Luckily I do not depend on FeeBay for my total income as many do so I can and will stay on strike until all these matters are resolved.
I also will be looking for other venues while at the same time keeping in touch with the eBay community to see when and if this obviously sleeping not so nice giant wakes up and realizes its beanstake is shrinking.
All boycotters should take a look at Ecost, Trust me, you won't ever go back to Ebay.
Jim
(OR BUYING AND SELLING ON eBAY)
MAY BE GUILTY OF SUPPORTING AN
ON-GOING CRIMINAL ENTERPRIZE!!!!
Everyone suspects that
eBay may be the World's Largest Fence
Of Stolen, Forged & Knock Off Merchandise!!.
I Think It's time for the FBI, Treasury Dept and
The US Attorney General to Begin An Investigation
Into This Company's Employees (And It's Major Stockholders!! )
Operating as a
Purveyor of Stolen Goods
Normally results in Quick & Fast Arrests!!
I think the recent decision to make
the Feedback System "One-Sided"
may be the Final Nail in the eBay Coffin!!
In order for eBay employees to mediate
the up-coming new Feedback Complaints...
They may have to act as a "Law Enforcement Agency",
"Court Of Law", "Judge" and "Jury"....Are These Acts Illegal??..
Why do eBay The eBay and Paypal Employees
That render the daily complaint decisions between
Buyers and Sellers operate under incomplete False Names??
Do They know that the decisions
They are making may be against the Law??...
eBay may be in deep trouble
as the legitimate brick and mortar
Major Retailers like Sears, Target,
and Walmart demand that eBay be held
accountable for selling merchandise that
may have been stolen from Their Stores!!
One Side Feedback May Test The
Laws Of Equity and Equal Protection!!!
The proposed Paypal 21 Day Funds Holding Period
Will Not Work...It May Be Against Banking Regulations..
And What Seller in Their Right Mind is going to ship a product
Before They Receive Payment (and may never ever get paid)???
Dishonest Buyers Worldwide
will have a Field Day...While Legimate
Sellers may continue to Boycott and Go Elsewhere!!
Unless the new proposed one-sided
feedback decision is reversed Immediately
(or the feedback system is totally removed)...The
decline and fall of eBay may only take a Short Time!!
In My mind...
eBay Stockholders, Employees
Buyers & Sellers may be un-knowingly
(or knowingly) Conspiring to support an
ongoing International Criminal Enterprise!
Conspiracy Is
A "Serious" Crime!!
This comment
has been made by...
A Retired Private Detective...
& eBay User of almost 10 Years!!!!
www.ioffer.com/info/pa...
onlineauction.com
****************BOYCOT... VICTORIOUSLY*****************
The huge fee increases that they tried to bring to us as "lowered fees", the 21 day hold on funds with loop holes for them to do it at a whim, the lack of accountablility when a buyer doesn't pay or writes bad checks or does theft by charge backs, the padded listings, the allowed schill bidders, the inconsistant and non existant communication level, the name calling, the total disregaurd for the Seller as a business partner, and lastly, the greed behind it all... Just too much to chew on for me...
Personally, I chose to close my listings BEFORE the actual first boycott, and since they didn't respond except for calling us "noise" and using padded listings to try to cover up the true effects of the boycott just reinforced my decision to stay away forever...
I am moving my business to onlineauction.com and will help them flourish as I re-grow my business there...
I see a sinking ship when I look at ebay... The monopoly has finally met it's match!!
BOYCOTT EBAY FOREVER!!
Lets see how can we get shot of these pesky low volume sellers. Lets change the feedback system.
Only positive feedback can be left for buyers, even the minority of scamming buyers. They can then blackmail the sellers for a cheaper item, free postage, get freebies from low volume sellers by saying item not recieved when in fact the buyer as the item.
Their DSR will lower, putting them to the bottom of searches where their item as no hope of a sale due to lack of visibility. All this can be done under the disguise of better buyer experience.
Low volume sellers will pay higher FVF to negate the lower listing fees, numerous relist fees that will be paid in the hope of getting a sale in the distant future.
Buyers I have news for you. The Bad Power sellers will still issue you with Stat Decs ( solicitors letters) Power Seller Account Managers can still intervene to get bad feedback removed.
Sellers you need to look at other venues to sell, maybe spreading items over numerous smaller sites that offer free listings. The one below is excellent with a half price life membership promotion on at the moment.
On the www.ebid.net site I have visibility by default to International Countries, this is something I no longer have on ebay.
I have decided to build up establish myself elsewhere using ebay less and less as I establish myself on
www.ebid.net other specialist sites, my own web site.
Lets see how can we get shot of these pesky low volume sellers. Lets change the feedback system.
Only positive feedback can be left for buyers, even the minority of scamming buyers. They can then blackmail the sellers for a cheaper item, free postage, get freebies from low volume sellers by saying item not recieved when in fact the buyer as the item.
Their DSR will lower, putting them to the bottom of searches where their item as no hope of a sale due to lack of visibility. All this can be done under the disguise of better buyer experience.
Low volume sellers will pay higher FVF to negate the lower listing fees, numerous relist fees that will be paid in the hope of getting a sale in the distant future.
Buyers I have news for you. The Bad Power sellers will still issue you with Stat Decs ( solicitors letters) Power Seller Account Managers can still intervene to get bad feedback removed.
Sellers you need to look at other venues to sell, maybe spreading items over numerous smaller sites that offer free listings. The one below is excellent with a half price life membership promotion on at the moment.
On the ebid.net site I have visibility by default to International Countries, this is something I no longer have on ebay.
I have decided to build up establish myself elsewhere using ebay less and less as I establish myself on
ebid.net other specialist sites, my own web site.
Caveat lector.
We saw the writing on the wall in 06 when store fees rose nearly 70% but stores inventory became visible in search to compensate. Sales took off and life was good. Two months later we were taken out of search again because "eBay needs to re-balance the marketplace and return to its core values" Translated this means big time sellers of imported junk were seeing declining sell through rates in their auctions due to buyers being able to find fixed price items in stores, and they were complaining, loudly. Management had an epiphany, eBay needed to re-balance, more auctions, less fixed price. Did store fees decline to previous rate, given that what we were paying for in the increase had been withdrawn? Don't be silly! Bait and switch anyone?
Back in 06 it was clear that we had too many eggs in one basket and we began to explore other channels. We explored alternative auction venues, none had the traffic to make the effort worthwhile. We built a website, we promoted it. We learned that if you are not paying 40% of your gross sales to eBay you can survive with less sales. Like most small sellers we were frequent buyers too. As our listing volume declined so did our purchasing volume on eBay. New and better auction venues appeared, we put merchandise in many of them.
We remained as eBay sellers through price increase after price increase, cutting overhead to the bone in order to remain competitive in our pricing because there was no viable alternative. This is not true anymore. Venues such as eCRATER.com, Loudfrog.com, Etsy.com for the hand-crafters and their suppliers and iOffer.com are much more viable for sellers and we have a presence on all of them.
The three straws that broke this camels back are:
1. Detailed Seller Ratings which are extremely important to the viability of the seller and framed deceptively to the buyer. For example Shipping Time, on a scale of 1 - 5, 4 is 'quickly' to the buyer who thinks this is a good score. eBay regards 4 as so poor that you are a risky seller, will loose your power seller status with the much hyped 'discounted fees', are restricted to Paypal for payment (who may hold the buyers funds for up to 21 days). eBay ignores the fact that to a buyer speed of shipping has everything to do with when they have their purchase in their hand and nothing to do with how fast the item was packed and taken to the Post Office. Sellers are being rated on UPS and USPS job performance.
Looking at the Shipping and Handling charges ratings raises even more questions. How can FREE SHIP rate less than 5?
2. Feedback. We agree that retaliatory feedback is a problem. Most retaliatory feedback is left by super high volume sellers who use automated like for like programs. When a buyer uses negative feedback to ask the seller a question "When are you going to ship my item?" you can see why the programs are popular. Fixing the problem by preventing use of these programs would make more sense than removing the only tool a seller has to evaluate the buyer. Buyer fraud is increasing and eBay ignores it. They get their fees regardless.
3. Disrespect for sellers or, as I prefer the word, CONTEMPT. eBay management & their PR department disparage sellers routinely. We are 'just noise', 'flea market sellers' and we must be stupid too. A nickel less up front and 3.5% increase up the rear is not a decrease and we are smart enough to figure that out.
As a seller of high quality American made greeting cards which I sell from $2 and up, fixed price, eBay & Paypal together take a minimum of 65c plus 14.9% or 30c (actually higher because Paypal's cut includes 2.9% of S & H) This leaves me with the choices of (a) selling below cost, (b) raising prices = declining sales, or, (c) leaving eBay.
So, here we are, two years down the road from "eBay needs to re-balance the marketplace and return to its core values, auction sales" and eBay seems to have turned around and be driving in the other direction. Now we want more fixed price, and will be getting away from auctions as soon as we can.
Hear me well eBay. I will not be bringing back the 3500 multiple quantity listings I had in my eBay store when you shafted me in 06, those listings I removed when you doubled my listing costs in 07, those fixed price listings you would like to charge me 12% final value fees on. I am a businesswoman. I can't run a viable business with my venue micromanaging it.
The recent price changes affect my business greatly. They will result in the fees I pay going up 40% annually! If I were to achieve the 5% discount eBay is offering a very select few, my fees would go up by approximately 27%. If I were to achieve the 15% discount, my fees would go up by approximately 13%.
I feel that the price increases are extremely misguided. Normally, companies only raise rates when THEIR costs increase, or when they are delivering better results to their customers. In THIS case, eBay's costs have not risen and they are not only NOT delivering better results, but they are actually delivering lesser results (lower sellthrough rates and lower ASPs). Any company that did not perceive themselves as a monopoly would never raise their rates under these circumstances, but, if you feel your customers have nowhere else to go, then you CAN raise their rates, to make up for the lower profits you are having due to the lesser results you are realizing.
eBay has miscalculated in my case. I have to examine how much I pay eBay per year, and what I received in return for that money. I have concluded that I can do far better opening up my own auction on my own site. Unlike many other sellers, I had my own business for 10 years prior to starting on eBay, so I am now reversing the process I started in 2000! At that time, I moved my entire business ONTO eBay, and in 2008, I am moving my entire business OFF of eBay.
I really don't understand why eBay would drastically raise their rates on people like myself, who sell 100% of what they list, and have "fun" true auctions, where all the final prices are set by two or more actual bidders (the very kinds of auctions that made eBay so popular), and I have virtually perfect feedback (only 14 negatives in 300,000 transactions!).
What is equally difficult to understand is that eBay has slashed their rates to media sellers only, who sell very little of what they list, and who have generally mediocre feedback, and who often charge disproportionately high shipping, which eBay says is their number one concern! It also is odd that eBay chose these sellers to be the first recipients of their new "non-level playing field", for I can see no reason to single out these sellers as being especially important to eBay.
But it is not solely an issue of rates that is causing me to leave eBay. I believe their recent changes to feedback will have a disastrous effect on their company. I believe they made those changes because their research showed that buyers do not return to the site (either ever, or as often) because of dissatisfaction over high shipping, and because they get upset when a seller leaves negative feedback on them. So they made their recent changes (primarily trying to force sellers to lower shipping rates, and stop leaving "bad feedback") because they think that will improve sales.
I believe they are completely mistaken. In spite of what their research shows, I believe the number one reason buyers buy less often (or quit the site) is because they were cheated in some fashion. Similarly, I believe the number one reason sellers sell less (or quit selling altogether) is because they are tired of having buyers who never pay.
The solution to both these problems is to verify all other users on the site (both buyers and sellers). When a buyer or seller breaks the rules, eBay could then ban that PERSON, and not just that ID (which has no effect, because the person can get a new ID, under the current rules). If all users are verified, then a bad buyer or seller will be banned, and they can't easily get back on.
I believe eBay is aware of both these problems, but there are two things that prevent them from implementing my solution. One is that verifying all users would mean they would have to admit they would actually have something like 80 million users, instead of the 250 million users they claim (which counts all IDs as separate people, which everybody knows is complete fiction). The other thing is that eBay would have to have a REAL Trust and Safety department which would need to go after bad buyers and sellers, both with police and through the courts, and that would certainly be expensive, and would not bring eBay any additional income in the short term.
Under the current setup, eBay benefits greatly from the problems that beset the site. Many "bad sellers" are among the largest sellers, and pay eBay great amounts of fees. Many "bad buyers" cause items to have to be relisted a second time, and this generates a HUGE amount of revenue for eBay in listing fees they never refund (and surely many people never bother to get a refund of their final value fees, so that is an additional revenue source as well).
To sum up, eBay keeps raising the fees sellers pay, without delivering additional value of any kind, and in fact recent years have seen a deterioration of the value they have provided. They also continually micromanage their sellers, taking control of a greater and greater percentage of their businesses.
Sometime in the middle of March, I will hold my last eBay auction, and I will hold my first auction on my website www.emovieposter.com. I am currently in negotiations with other major sellers of collectibles and antiques, trying to help them leave eBay as well, and set up similar auctions on their own sites. I have hope that, at some time in the future, I can help set up an auction site SOLELY for collectibles and antiques, so that all of the smaller sellers on eBay will have a place to sell on that is run by actual sellers, and which truly only does provide a platform for them to sell from. I believe such a site would be very welcomed by almost all sellers of collectibles and antiques.
Bruce Hershenson
President, eMoviePoster.com
They forgot just who pays the bills around that place.
IMO John Donahoe is a moron.
----------------------...
Dsouth
- Attention - Earning Cash Back at eBay And Your Favorite Retailers Is Easy! Http://Ebaykickbacks.c...
Bruce H., thank you for catching the points I did not raise because my post was already way too long.
Regarding user ID, I have four, one to sell, one to buy, one for posting in AC and forums and one in reserve. I am fairly typical of most oldtimers on the bay. I know someone who has eight!
When I say enough, no more, I speak for four users, five if you include my husband who has his own ID. Every ID has buyer feedback, three have seller feedback. We honored the boycott and will be out of eBay lock, stock and the very last bookmark and greeting card by the end of April.
Having been treated with such humiliating contempt, they're going to go elsewhere -- not just to sell, but also to buy.
I've unloaded my eBay stock and I'm tempted to sell short.
I must say, I won't. They have shown for the last time that they will never leave us alone. I wish people would stop using the term "boycott" and start using the term EVACUATE!
If you were the new CEO, what would YOU do to improve the situation with INVESTORS?
eBay needs to remember something: I can buy new stuff anywhere, so why would I buy it on eBay where there are no real warranties or guarantees? There are better places to buy brand new merchandise.
eBay also needs to remember it's roots: The first item ever sold on eBay was Pierre's broken laser pointer. eBay is, or was, the place people came to for collectibles, vintage finds from by-gone eras. These are now the sellers eBay is trying to drive off of the site - with these sellers gone, the buyers will soon follow. eBay no longer has a lock on auction technology, and there are many sites out there ready and willing to accommodate the sellers, and by extension buyers, that eBay no longer wants.
eBay is cutting it's own throat.
Then they could publish a text on how to turn the most spectacular dot com boom success story around, to finally make it fail.
Among the chapters would be Growth can't last forever. It would explain how start up companies can grow 100% and 1000% but eventually reach their full grown size, and must learn to give a good product, and live with their size.
EBay grew up in 2004, and is still under the mistaken illusion, that they can keep growing every year.
No company can grow indefinitely.
But eBay is bull-headedly attempting to tell stockholders that THEY can and will.
As for me, I joined in May 1998, and will be hibernating in May 2008--probably forever.
I will not be victimized by their one sided feedback that doesn't warn me about bad buyers, just lets dozens of people get burned, as eBay turns a blind eye and repeats "we're only a venue" as if it were a mantra.
And I will not be judged by their continually expiring DSR's.
Above all, I will never become a member of Paypal. I keep my money in banks and no company can put holds on that money at their whims.
I have already talked at least one person into never again using their Paypal account, and finding deals on the internet without eBay.
I will continue to spread that gospel about their business practices, in a one-on-one fashion.
The mistakes they are making are right up there with Enron and the Edsel.
You just can't arrogantly chase away 80% of your members, because only 20% make the most money, and not have those 80% come back to bite you.
Usually it takes whole generations for companies as successful as eBay currently is, to turn into failures (IBM, Studebaker, and so many little ones we don't remember today).
But to do it in only 10 years--what a supernova we will all get to observe.
I was a buyer AND a seller for 4 years. I quit (both) as soon as the new announcements were made. The Final Value Fee increases, the positive feedback only for buyers, the DSRs being used regarding to where you are found in product searches, the DSRs used to for discounts for Powersellers only and the Pay-Pal money holds.....this was all just too much to take! Now with the fake listings popping up...that I have seen with my own eyes...that just shows how low they will go! I am an honest person and do not want to play any part in a crooked company!
It seemed as if they thought no one would have the back bone to say "NO!! I'm not gonna take it!" and quit buying and selling there! Well they are wrong! I'm done completely! I also tell everyone I know not to buy anything from there!
I can not trust eBay after learning they have been "PADDING" their listing numbers. There were thousands of their bogus listings under the seller id sdc_prod_434.....(a lot of other numbers). The listings had no price and you could not bid on them when you opened the listing page. Another bogus listing store had over 90,000 listings in their store with a bogus feedback score of only 546.
Don't insult our intelligence, eBay. We are a savvy group of buyers and sellers.
We are organized, continue to organize and we intend for you to hear our "NOISE" as you call it Donohoe!
As a former powerseller and having donated a very healthy 6 figure sum to their coffers over the years , enough is enough, helping to build the many up and coming alternatives that are out there and have seen the golden opportunity by supplying great customer service . !!
Have not seen , heard or witnessed so many folks that have been treated so badly by so few in the business world before , as a monopoly they can get away with it , eBay, your monopolistic days will be over very soon fortunately .
Noise they say , this noise is turning into a thunderous roar that will hopefully become deafening to this company .
They do it because they can , the only thing that will cause greedbay to listen is the collapse of the stock prices which appears to be happening , sooner the better.
Stock holders I sympathise with you , there are a lot of questions that you folks are entitled to asked this (mis)management team . hound them with your gripes, keep the rage intense as tens of thousands of sellers ( and many buyers -sellers/buyers) .
Once again great forum , great posts.
Keep up the noise (Deafening roar !) guys and really support the 1st of May start of a Boycott, no selling buying or listing , the last one was successful in the number of dropped listings and also making a lot more folks aware.
Don't bother contacting feebay they will not listen , put your efforts into direct action we have started the snowball rolling , and it is getting bigger daily
I totally and completely support this boycott. I haven't listed or bought since Feb 18, and my store is CLOSED. I've moved everything over to Plunderhere.com and Ioffer.
As much as I was a Seller, I was also a Buyer and I fully intend on frequenting OTHER venues to buy and support other sellers who have flocked there.
I will be around to boycott ebay, now and during the May.1 one, however, I most definitely will NOT be returning.
Lots of really good optional auction sites named in these posts...pick one that feels like HOME and settle in!
You, my dear, have just written the most accurate account of what is happening at greedbay that myself and many others have read for weeks... THANK YOU!
It is sooooo refreshing to see that you took all of the time to uncover and report so many facts!
So many reporters have "jumped on the bandwagon", but few have had enough marbles to actually report the truth... again... THANK YOU!
I'm finished with idiotic~bay.
I haven't listed or purchased anything in 4 months... I had planned a big, final blowout sale for my 10th anniversary day after tomorrow, but I changed my mind.
I was already sick at watching the site fall apart from the fraudulent sellers greedbay not only allowed to remain on the site, but encouraged... even after countless reports to "safeharbor", nothing was/is done.
I'm sticking with my other stores on eCrater, as well as a few others I'm in the process of building... I've already had much success there, after devoting some time to advertising, and am sooooo happy to be totally FREE of greedbay!
They have destroyed the trust of many, and personally there is nothing they could ever do or say to win mine back...
I'll never buy or sell with them again.
Horsemama, you said is best...
It's not a BOYCOTT, it's a WALKOUT!
Cheers mama! :-D
Thank you so much again for this great job of reporting Timothy!
I know many, many appreciate it!
Take care! :-D
Sincerely,
Raia
gurlz.ecrater.com
threads.ecrater.com
bookboutique.ecrater.c...
As for becoming a big retail site - hah! Walmart, K-Mart, Best Buy, Target, Sears, JC Penney to name a few are ALL online now and I'd buy from them before I'd buy drop-shipped junk from China!
Well, I think it’s time to talk about Wagglepop as it is the best eBay alternative site available. From its clean presentation, its very competitive pricing: For only $9.95 a month you get your own fully customizable store (with your own url, custom pages, header, logo, business builder tools: such as Red Carpet, and unlimited free store inventory listings)
Not only are store inventory listings free - auction and fixed price listings are as well- so load up the store and then load up the floor for maximum traffic generation and sell thru rates- no one is holding you back on Wagglepop
Worried about those commission fees? No need - cheapest commission take I’ve seen - and over all lowest cost auction house start up I’ve come across. Sell an item for 9.99 pay a quarter ($.25) in commission- wow! And how much have we been paying? Disgusting!
I know it’s fabulous- how could it possibly get better? This is how- wide open spaces. Yep, ready to stake claim in your desired niche? Tired of being one of a million competitors? Are you ready to be the foundation of the niche? This is your moment- you better jump or someone will beat you to it.
What else is blooming in Wagglepop? Community, unity, solidarity. Is there a better way to grow than to have support from those who are growing beside you? Nope! The stronger one becomes the stronger we will all become, because we will be there to share, tug, and glorify our triumphs together.
So, what was Wagglepop’s appeal to those of us who have already decided this was the place to be for success?
A few of Wagglepop’s community members -
Dave’s Gift Line
Well I came to wagglepop looking for a new place to sell. Once I joined and looked around I noticed how easy it was to get around the site. Then I went to the forums and saw how helpful everyone was and that was it.
I opened a store and started listing all in the same day. I have always wanted to have a bigger store however when I was at the other site I couldn't list as much because I was always worried about how much my listing fees were going to be. I averaged approx 80 to 120 items listed at any one time on the other site and was always worried if this item doesn’t sell I am out money. But now on wagglepop I can list as many items as I want to I can give my customers a wide selection of merchandise and I can give them better deals. I already have over 300 items listed and I am still listing.
So now I can have the store I always wanted but could never have over on the other site.
www.wagglepop.com/stor...
Boutique Baby Treasures and More
I guess the best draw to Wagglepop for me was just the site itself. The first time I saw the site, I registered and opened my store. No hesitation, didn't have to think twice. I was interested in replacing as much of my eBay business as possible on a site with more reasonable fees. I could tell at first glance that Wagglepop would be a great place to try. It wasn't until later on that all of the other great things about Wagglepop became clear like the dedicated owner, excellent management, wonderful community that has developed, and the superior search engine exposure is another big advantage.
www.wagglepop.com/stor...-DÉCOR
Bernings Bargains- something for everyone
Hmmm... What attracted me to Wagglepop?
1) Friendly, Helpful and Fun Community - always has been, no matter how many sellers come and go.
2) The REASONABLE Fees... $9.95 is only about 8 listings worth on Ebay.
3) The versatility of designing my own store front, pages, categories.
4) The unlimited amount of inventory that I can put inside my store. No worries about getting charged more with each listing I do.
5) Customer Service - Prompt replies from REAL people, answering the question I asked in normal English that I can understand.
6) Seeing the WP Staff on the boards in a positive manner... answering questions, asking our opinions, and listening to what we say (even if they don't have the control or money to do everything we want them to.)
7) Ease of listing ... set up your desired template, create a listing, then sell similar on every one after that ... so simple (once you get the hang of it...lol!)
8) Just the name... WAGGLEPOP sounds like a FUN place to be. And although WP had some rough times starting out, and still have the Anti-WP people out there, we have gotten stronger and stayed friendly in spite of it all!
What else...? Oh yeah.... WAGGLEPOP ROCKS!
www.wagglepop.com/stor...
So come on over - and see why Wagglepop is right for you!
Ambitious online auction site store owner/seller - just leaving a breadcrumb of opportunity for my peers
Mechelle: Eye Catching Beauty
eyecatchingbeautytoo.n...
That is what we need to hear! Too many people are saying they will boycott until greedbay changes at least some of their upcoming policies which is an explicit implication that they would return if greedbay decides to change their minds. Why would greedbay change anything if they know people are waiting to come back? Or they will change something now and once people start listing and buying again, it will be the same ole cr*p.
Greedbay has been failing us (buyers and sellers) for years as it is, but we all became complacent. Point blank we have to leave and never turn back. They will NEVER stop playing with us.
In real life, people can only take abuse for so long, before something happens (the straw that breaks the camel's back)...and they leave, never to return.
You're right, we became complacent...we gave in because we thought there was no hope...no other choices.
This boycott has been a real eye opener...I was NEVER happy with the fee hikes in past years...but like in a bad relationship, felt STUCK, so...I went along and held onto that VERY little *thread* of *hope* that perhaps someday things would change. (For the better)
It only got worse...and for me, these changes ARE the FINAL straw.
I know for a FACT I will never return. (Other than to post on the boards during the strike) I'd much rather be with a company(s) who cares. Ebay is like poison to me and the very name leaves a vile taste in my mouth.
I get so angry when I read a buyer who says the one sided feedback is a good thing. Well, they are either scam buyers or ignorant of the problems sellers have with retaliatory feedbacks as well. For the buyers who have had a legitimate problem, they should be blaming e-bay. Sellers have always known it is e-bay's fault but once again we kept hoping they would solve the problem and clean up their site by eliminating the bad sellers and bad buyers. Which they could have easily done. Oh, but wait, they did finally offer to mediate. For a FEE!
Once again. Don't boycott. EVACUATE!
YES, ebay no longer wishes to retain the "mom and pop" sellers that built the site into the amazing success story it has heretofore, been. Seeking to become an Amazon clone, ebay has chosen to court the large retailers and high volume sellers in an effort to turn ebay into a Storefront site. Recent proof of this would be the deal ebay struck with General Motors in which 3,900 GM dealerships across the country will now be able to list their entire inventories of GM used vehicles on ebay, FREE OF CHARGE. The recent increase in final auction value fees assessed to ebay's "flea market" sellers will no doubt cover any lost revenues ebay might incurr from the GM "deal." Much like the cheating husband who treats his wife badly while courting her replacement, ebay has chosen to abandon and abuse the seller base that made ebay a household name in favor of a new storefront venue of high volume sellers and big retailers.
For the past three weeks, sellers have been flocking to POWERSELLERSUNITE.COM which provides a safe place for sellers to meet to discuss the situation, and which also provides a list of alternative auction/listing sites where sellers can list their items free of charge and with either no commission or minimal commission fees on sales. In the week following the announcement of ebay's fee and policy changes, the number of listings at these alternate sites soared to well over 7 million listings. eBay sellers have defected in staggering numbers and most have no intention of returning to ebay, even in the event ebay rescinds some of it's proposed changes. Sellers now know they have alternative venues for selling their wares and all that is needed is for the public to know WHERE the sellers have moved.
For all sellers who have not yet found POWERSELLERSUNITE.COM, you are invited to join us as we unite to form a new selling community, one in which BOTH the buyer and the seller are valued and respected. For the public, you are invited to look at the following auction venues where you will very LIKELY find your favorite sellers and your much sought after "flea market" items; collectibles, antiques, vintage clothing, and other favorite finds. (To validate this point, the number of current listings at each site is also provided.)
I look foward to seeing all former ebay sellers AND buyers at the following sites:
iOffer view charts 2,735,518 -- -- --
Bidville view charts 1,099,795
eCrater view charts 986,497
CQout view charts 606,401
us.eBid.net view charts 532,922
uk.ebid.net view charts 510,911
blujay view charts 329,701
OnlineAuction view charts 260,790
ePier view charts 176,381
SpecialistAuctions view charts 121,815
tazbar view charts 96,144
wagglepop view charts 83,302
AuctionQuests view charts 65,218
PlunderHere view charts 58,941
WeBidz view charts 30,994
HiBidder view charts 29,053
McBidz view charts 25,854
Wensy view charts 25,329
Overstock view charts 21,388
UBidRight view charts 12,889
No apologies, this is a rant. And more than a little fun.
The answer has been clear for some time.
Short of the Federal government, there isn't another entity with Ebay's capacity to put millions of families on the unemployment line.
And it's obvious from the lying and dissembling that Ebay management is not ethically equipped to wield such power in the best interests of Ebay customers, least of all the American economy.
But it's nuts to replace the liars at Ebay with liars from Washington D.C.
So Ebay should be legally forced to break up into several smaller entities, thereby reducing the proportion of the economy that can be damaged by the decisions of a single, potentially corrupt individual.
As the internet marketplace grows, this will become mandatory. It cannot continue to be controlled by a single person, whether Barbie Meg or her hand picked Ken John Donahoe.
It's not a matter of "if." It's a matter of when. Ebay knows it, has been expecting it since rolling out Ebay Motors.
Sellers are hurting themselves by brandishing fantasy swords about other selling venues. Ebay knows the truth. The only near competitor is Amazon and it is not yet viable for antiques or boatloads of other items.
That's why Donahoe is smirking. Angry sellers are running about doing his work for him, spreading the false illusion that there are other viable alternatives to Ebay.
There are none.
The elephant has to be brought out of the corner, folks. It's too frippin big to keep ignoring. Instead, we need to put a hat on his head and parade him through every congressional office.
Either we do it now or one fine day that elephant is going to walk into the middle of every Main street in America and leave the largest pile of economic crap the world has seen since....well since the mortgage debacle. Except no one in Washington will be jumping up to bail out a few million Ebay sellers.
Here's the truth about some of those so-called alternatives. I invite others who have actual experience to step forward and refute or enhance this (Pulleeeze, Shareholders at CarpetbaggerAuctionUSA... do not chime in here, or may your souls rot in hell, for we are in desperate need of input only from people with actual, genuine experience; we have plenty enough lying opportunists at Ebay, thank you very much.)
Craigs List is good for a limited number of items and useless for many/most of America's small towns. (You might have to drop the price of even a signed original Tiffany Dragonfly shade to $100 to find a buyer willing to travel 12 hours to get it. Exaggeration. A little.)
In 6 months with 200 low priced items that were selling strongly on Ebay, I sold ZERO on Ebid. ZERO
With 100 items on ioffer I sold zero. ZERO.
My friends gave up on Ecrater months ago.
On Esty, if you buy my pot holder I'll buy your candle and we'll each make a dime, but it will be a really meaningful experience.
Ruby Lane is a good performer for antiques, but useless for used musical instruments.
Build your own website? - Bring a big purse. Creating the site can be a do-it-yourself project, but getting traffic to the site is a costly and/or time consuming proposition. I speak from personal, on-going, frustrating experience.
----------------------...
As kids in the 1950s, my brother and I made a telephone of 2 cans connected with a string.
121bid, AuctionsWorldWide,Bid-... BidEasyNow, Bidville, Bidz, Blujay, CQout, Delcampe, eBid, ECrater, ePier, Etsy, GoShopnChat, Hibidder.com, iBootSale, Liquidation, Oztion, PinkAuctions, PlunderHere, QXL, SimplyBidding, SpecialistAuctions, Tazbar, Trade Your Stuff, uBid, Wagglepop, YourHighBid.
What do these "alternatives" have in common? They're a competitor to Ebay like our tin cans were a competitor to Ma Bell.
The test as to whether a company is imposing monopolistic restraints on trade is not determined by whether there are ANY competitors. It is determined by whether there is the capacity for a VIABLE competitor to engage in trade and, if not, the economic consequences thereof.
Why do you suppose Ebay owns a share of Craigs List? Diversifying their investment portfolio? In a pigs eye. It's a chump change investment in growing the competition in hopes Craig will sprout up into a big strong boy and keep anyone from planting the big "M" label where it belongs, on Ebay, the biggest, most powerful monopoly the world has ever known.
While this years crop of angry Ebay sellers are figuring out that the alternatives are not viable, more time will pass. Ebay will become more independent, more belligerent, more unreasonable and more aggressive.
Remember, you heard this here: Ebay's next gambit will be to block all direct email correspondence between sellers and buyers. Communication will only be allowed through MyEbay. They will introduce this change with much mumbo jumbo about security and protection, but the real reason will be to stop the communication between buyer and seller that might lead to a dollar trading hands that Ebay doesn't get a piece of.
Can't have anyone selling anything that Ebay doesn't get a piece of -- too DANGEROUS! Like Bidpay and Western Union payments were too DANGEROUS! The only safe way to pay is with Paypal, every other method is too DANGEROUS! Ebay plays the Danger Card like Rudy at Ground Zero. But Rudy is entitled. Donahoe is just a ho.
And they'll eliminate MePages, with the explanation that they're an unnecessary duplication of MyWorld. The press will not know or care about the truth, which is that MyWorld doesn't allow html -- which means no more links to other websites -- where someone might make a nickel that Ebay doesn't get a piece of.
Feeling suffocated? Like a rat trapped in a maze? You should. We cannot boycott our way out of this. Well we could, but too many sellers think that if they don't rock the boat, it can't tip over.
The answer is government intervention. I hate government more than the average bear, but I've thought long and hard about this for several years and am convinced it is the only answer. Ebay has to be broken up into smaller units and for that to happen, our regulators need to understand this one simple truth:
Ebay has the world by the short hairs.
Yup, said what I meant: the WORLD.
Ebay's stranglehold isn't just on a humorous collection of unsophisticated ma and pa Jesus sandwich sellers. That flea market image Meg and Donahoe so disdain? Just more shuckin and jivin by the smoke screen twins. While the media was inhaling, a metamorphosis took place at Ebay.
Ebay sellers are well aware of this, but for those less involved, if you want to see the real picture, search Ebay for forklifts, xray, Bobcat, tractor, bus and house.
What Ebay is doing today to the sellers who helped build the company, it will be doing in the future to every seller, regardless of size or imagined inoculation. Because they can. Because there is no one, except us, maybe, to stop them.
Here's one for the conservatives: what's to prevent Ebay from moving the platform out of the U.S. and away from U.S. trade laws altogether? Sound like science fiction? Well just 25 years ago sending the image of a single 8.5 x 11 page across the country required rolling it around a cylinder, hooking it up to a telephone and spinning it for 8 minutes. Just 20 years ago the only way to find Star Wars figures was to scour classified ads in toy magazines and travel to flea markets. Just 10 years ago photos were RARE on Ebay. So don't even talk to me about "improbable" changes. Quit guffawing and ask yourself: has there ever before been an international company as potentially portable and powerful as Ebay?
The good news is that Paypal funding from South Africa or Mars probably wouldn't take much longer.
I propose that instead of swaggering about fantasy Ebay alternatives, we paste our posts into a Wordpad file, hit the print button, grab an envelope and send it off to:
Federal Trade Commission
Consumer Response Center
600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20580
While you're at it, print 2 or 10 copies. This site makes it easy to find the names and addresses of your congressional representatives: https://forms.house.go...
And to amuse ourselves in the meanwhile, lets talk about the best way to break up Ebay.
I'd like to see several strong Ebay segments spun out as separate companies, each with a solid seller and customer base as a foundation on which to build, each with the freedom to compete with one another, in no way bound by its starting base, so that within a very few years we would have 4-5 separate Ebays, each with an focus on its foundation but also selling a full range of other products.
Here's my suggestions for the breakout. Note that there's one each for Microsoft, Google, Amazon and Ken (don't know Ken who? You lose, back to the top you go :) How would you change them?
Antiques and collectibles
Vehicles
Business & Farm Equipment
Clothing & Housewares
The name recall is huge. Time-Warner should take a serious look at it
Has anyone mentioned the other idiot factor?, USPS? those lame bastiches have almost killed selling low priced items on EBAY by raising the typical shipping cost from $4.50 to $7. The USPS has a strange anti-american policy of running the post office like a business.
Postal service is supposed to be one of your benefits and rights. The government operates the military as a non-profit money losing mechanism, ditto the insanely stupid Corps of Engineers, so why screw the citizen further by having them spend countless hours and money to raise postage one penny on letters?
I think the reply will be "it's Congress's fault.
You must not forget that most sellers are also buyers and when we boycott we don't buy either. That is HUGE amounts of money lost in listing fees and HUGE amounts lost in final value fees (which incidentally have just been raised) You probably have to a another couple of Mil to your estimate for that!
Attracting two-bit hustlers instead of retaining solid, long-time buyers and sellers like myself (over ten years and 1,000 transactions with no negatives) is not going to pay off for them in the long run.
Does anybody remember the "good old days" of eBay, when you could actually get to know a buyer or seller? Seems like a relic from the Eisenhower administration.
These days, when I'm looking to buy or sell something online, I do it through a special-interest forum. Faster, easier, friendler...and free.
EBAY HIKED THEIR PRICES and have not intention of lowering them! Competition is very much welcome!
I believe the govt wants the general population to go down the tubes - the gap widens between the Haves n HaveNots... they continue to allow American businesses to ship jobs overseas and the ones who stay here offer their jobs to Illegals.. allowing Feebay to ruin us all fits right into their plan - look what they have done to the USdollar?? 20 yrs ago, our dollar was worth 30% MORE than the Canadian dollar... now the Canadian dollar is worth more than ours. Thats also part of the reason GAS is soo freakin expensive - the dollar is worthless!
I agree - I'm not using Feebay anymore, to sell OR to buy.. Hear that Feebay?? I will not be a buyer - isnt that what you need is Buyers and shoppers??
At this point - its every man for himself..
Dont for one minute think your Govt is gonna do anything about it.
I'm betting many of those posting so vehemently against eBay are those who were "tricking the system" and are now dealing with reality - low quality listings from dis-reputable sellers are not wanted!
It's not about the money....that's only a small part of it. Please go educate youself. :)
www.youtube.com/watch?...
www.youtube.com/watch?...
www.youtube.com/watch?...
forums.delphiforums.co...
Excuse me while I say....
HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAHAH...
Umm what?? Lets see, I want a lipstick. I can go to the mall and buy it OR I can Go to eBay and buy it.. the seller had to go get it somewhere, which is a trip.. then they take it to the post office, then the Post Office has to get it to me.. I dont see any eco-savings here. Plus the packing/mailing supplies..
I wouldn't say I posted anything vehemently to or about eBay, but I never had to trick anyone to do the amount of selling I've done.. eBay's fees are going up - not because eBay needs the money, But as a punitive measure.. to correct problems in the marketplace which they themselves created.. Dumb and Dumber!
And this is more about the bulldozing to Sellers - telling us we can no longer give Neutral/Negs to a buyer who takes 14 days to pay (If they pay at all..) or who complains about the shipping cost After they buy - when the cost was IN the ad - or the guy who took 3 days to pay for his item, then complains to me that it took him 7 days to have his item in hand?? UMM - I couldnt ship until he paid! So if he wanted his item sooner, perhaps he could have paid quicker. Payment alone does not a good buyer make.. Sorry!
I would like everyone to perform an exercise here on eBay....While on eBay, click on Advanced Search> enter nothing in the search box, but scroll down and under "Location" click on the radio button to the left of Items located in, then select a country (any country)> scroll to the bottom of the page and click on Search. Now view the thousands of auctions that all contain ebooks! There are generally over 61,000 auctions/listings per country that have all of the same ebooks! Who would have the money to list thousands of auctions of ebooks and pay the insertion fees? There are approximately 14,175,590 ebooks on eBay in the over 200 countries that are listed in the Advanced search; however, when you go to the home page and search the global sites, there are only 29 countries. It is those countries that have actual legitimate auctions listed. Is this why eBay says they have so many listings?
And let's not forget to eliminate PayPal from any future sales when we leave greedbay. There are alternatives.
Only the eBay users themselves can truly break the eBay Inc. monopoly, rescue our auction businesses from destruction at the hands of corporate greed, and save the original eBay person-to-person trading concept as an open marketplace of equals.
The eBay users—united, in our millions—can make a new fee-free home for ourselves on the Web and simply move there en masse, replicating the traffic of the eBay.com site.
Together, we can recreate the eBay Community, beyond the reach of eBay Group, Inc. The users made eBay the first time, and we can do it again—this time to suit our needs, rather than just line the pockets of FeeBay executives and shareholders.
Visit thepoint.com/campaigns...
I will never sell on eBay again but really enjoying
www.plunderhere.com
An expanded version of an earlier comment on the total bidder anonymity recently introduced to Australia by eBay (presumably a testing of the water for a more general application), including responses to the various nonsensical statements being offered by eBay in support of this decision.
I have bought many more items than I have sold on eBay so this comment is primarily from a buyer’s perspective. I am most unimpressed with eBay Australia’s decision to now make all auction bids absolutely anonymous, and the various reasons given for this decision I find unconvincing. Indeed, the principal reason given, the protection supposedly afforded buyers from fake “second chance offers”, is far outweighed by the field day this decision creates for shill bidders from whose activities buyers will now have no effective means of becoming aware and thereby protecting themselves.
I have in the past corresponded at length on the matter of shill bidding with the robots at eBay Customer Support and, frankly, the experiences have invariably been very frustrating and unsatisfying. I have formed the opinion that eBay does not have any tools, let alone the “sophisticated” tools that eBay claims to have, for the detection of shill bidding. I realise that investigating user reports of shill bidding requires the expenditure of some ergs; but eBay has a moral and (usually) a statutory obligation to stop shill bidding whenever eBay is made aware of such activity. Unfortunately, my experience with eBay is such that I have formed the opinion that eBay is very little concerned about this activity, and indeed eBay’s responses to my reporting of such activity in the past have habitually been to initially deny that such activity is taking place and it is only after much kicking and screaming and threatening that eBay has finally taken any action against a shill bidding seller.
Shill bidding brings no financial disadvantage to eBay; indeed it potentially increases the listing and selling fees that eBay receives, and I have therefore, reluctantly, come to the conclusion that eBay is, in fact, not concerned about shill bidding, and this decision to now make all bids absolutely anonymous will, intentionally or otherwise, very effectively hide such activity and will stop buyers from being able to notice and report same. As a consequence of this decision, eBay will no longer have to worry about shill bidding or do anything about it as genuine bidders can’t detect and report that which it is no longer possible for them to be on guard against. Considering the fact that eBay has made the absurd statement: “… this initiative has no impact on shill bidding. There is no correlation between hidden IDs and shill bidding,” one has to wonder if indeed this whole exercise is not simply a disingenuous move to remove shill bidding from view and thereby simplify matters for eBay. A very unsatisfactory situation from a buyer’s point of view. I don’t like being cheated, I don’t like watching others being unknowingly cheated and I particularly don’t like the thought that eBay appears to be so indifferent to such cheating. Clearly, from a buyer’s point of view, eBay has now become a not so “safe and fun place to trade.”
On 26 February, on the eBay Workshop Board michelleoz@ebay.com, in anticipation, posed a question and responded thereto:
“Won’t the recent changes to ‘safeguarding member IDs’ allow more shill bidding to take place?
“No—the changes will not make shill bidding any easier.
“Our experience is that the detailed information provided on the buyer, and how it is presented, has been more useful to members of the community who report such activity. That is, we still get good quality member reports.
“Furthermore, ebay continues to monitor the back end of the site using both data provided by members and also data captured from members as they transact on the site.
“And ebay continues to adapt registration and account activity rules to make the site safer overall.
“Shill bidding is banned by ebay for good reasons: it hurts buyers (who see less value—one of the major drivers for internet purchases) and also hurts legitimate sellers. Any person who argues that ebay wants shill bidding to drive up revenue through inflated final value fees is way off the mark.”
The first sentence of this answer (“No—the changes will not make shill bidding any easier.”) is a patently absurd statement; of course absolute anonymity makes shill bidding easier—as it could so do at any attended live auction—just as the absolute anonymity offered by eBay’s “User ID kept private” facility has already enabled shill bidders to operate on eBay with little fear of detection (see below)—notwithstanding eBay’s claim of having “sophisticated tools” for the detection thereof.
And, to the contrary, the “detailed information provided on the buyer” now supplied is not more useful: you really cannot expect the majority of the sheep that graze on the eBay slopes to be interested in sifting through multiple pages of such “detailed” information to try and ascertain whether or not another bidder is a shill—assuming they are aware of such activity in the first place. I am certainly not interested in doing so; I prefer to be able to put a “face” on another bidder, so that I can more easily make that judgment. I use a third-party auction processing programme to keep track of current and past auction activity on eBay that is of interest to me (with no 90-day limit) and I can manipulate that data (like an Excel spreadsheet): previously, that gave me a good chance of noticing any suspicious patterns of bidding—but no more.
Having said that, and not wanting to appear negative, no matter what, to any suggestion of change, the “Bid activity (%) with this seller” on the Bid History Details page may, at first appearance, appear to be of some use in some circumstances but its usefulness is severely limited by the fact that it is a summary of only the past 30 days. I accept that the compilation of the Bidder Information data is more complex than simply storing and incrementing a count of a buyer’s feedback but why is this “30-Day Summary” not a summary of at least the previous 90–120 days—ie, for the whole of the period that past auction details remain available on/to eBay? Now, if that was the case and an indication of that “Bid activity (%) with this seller” figure appeared on the Bid History page and, better still, also for the current high bidder on the primary auction page (eg, “Bidder n (nnn I nnn%)”)—notwithstandin... the basic objection to the absolute anonymity of “Bidder n” as opposed to “a***b (nnn)” which allows some opportunity for checking for any habitual appearance on a seller’s other auctions—that might well be of some usefulness in detecting shill bidding by regular eBay sellers.
Unfortunately, a 30-day summary is of little use when a bidder is only an occasional buyer and may well cause others to mistakenly suspect that a genuine non-regular bidder is a shill; and that is made even more likely now (in Australia) because, unlike in the US, the alias currently used in Australia (“Bidder n”) does not include the total feedback count, but only the new member symbol or the vague feedback “star” symbols (the meanings of the various colours of which I can never remember). Why does Australia, unlike the US, now use only the vague feedback symbols and not the actual feedback count for describing bidders—particularly in lists? At least Australia does not—yet—use the Australian form of alias for the winning bidder (we still get the actual ID which gives us a chance of spotting shills after but not before the event)—such absolute anonymity for the winning bidder would, once again, bring certain joy to the shill bidders. Nor do I understand the use, outside of Australia, of the feedback count in combination with the vague feedback symbols; it’s the count surely that counts. I don’t understand the logic of having so many variations in the information supplied between the various eBay sites.
With respect to the “Bids to unique sellers” count that appears in the Australian “30-Day Bid Summary”, this statistic represents only the number of unique sellers with whom the bidder has placed bids (and the “30-Day Bid History” listing also indicates this statistic), and does not represent feedback (ie, completed transactions) and it is therefore a pointless statistic except, possibly, if this bid count appears to be way out of proportion to any feedback count (by their nature shill bidder’s are going to nibble, not snipe), it could indicate that someone may have been placing small bids on other sellers’ auctions in an attempt to create the appearance of genuineness when shill bidding may be the ultimate intent (for example, see item 300194283130; Bidder 7: a new eBay member, less than 30 days; 22 unique items bid on; 18 bids to unique sellers; but still zero feedback: 0/22—that can’t be much fun!).
Previously, when anonymity was not activated until USD180/AUD250 (whatever) it was still possible to watch for suspicious bidding activity early in the auction. Now, after observing a number of auctions since total anonymity has been introduced for the whole of the auction, I have formed the opinion, that such total anonymity, particularly that with the absolutely anonymous form of alias used in Australia (“Bidder n”), is nothing more than an outrageously effective hide for shill bidders. I challenge anyone (eBay-programmed robots excluded) to make the same observations of bidder activity and the bidder information now supplied and argue otherwise.
And then there is the situation where bidders apparently can choose to keep their “feedback” private (ie, “alias (private)”). What is the point of having feedback if a bidder can choose to hide it? What is the point of having feedback if an anonymous bidder can choose to hide it? Presumably it is not hidden from the seller, only from other bidders. What possible purpose can there be for the hiding of feedback at any time?
Then there is the “User ID kept private”: It should be borne in mind that it is the seller—not the bidder—who may choose to use “User ID kept private” (what I call the “shill bidder’s paradise tool”). If they desire it, why is it not the individual bidder who may choose such anonymity on a high-value item? Of course, the obvious answer to that is that the shill bidder, individually, could then choose such anonymity—but then it’s better for the seller employing shill bidding to have this choice as he can better hide his shill bids amongst the genuine bids—if there are indeed any genuine bids—when all bids are kept private (see below). If, as is claimed by eBay, this facility is to protect the identity of bidders on high-priced items then there should at least be a substantial minimum starting value qualification ($1000?). Frankly, I think this classic “shill bidder’s hide facility” should be done away with completely!
I am afraid the decision-makers at eBay (particularly in Australia) use a different form of logic to that which I instinctively use; the whole premise that absolute anonymity of bidders is the only, or even the best, way to protect buyers from fake second chance offers is a nonsense. There is none of this absolute anonymity—yet—on the U.S. or European sites, and with the form of alias currently being used—still only for the “higher-valued” bids in Europe and the U.S.—being a contraction of the actual bidder ID [ie, “a***b (nnn I)”]—a potential buyer has still got some chance of noticing if another bidder is, or has been, active in a questionable manner on a particular seller’s auctions. This observation cannot be made with aliases that are neither unique nor consistent—as is the case with the aliases currently being used in Australia (ie, “Bidder n I”). And the use of such totally anonymous aliases will undoubtedly further “aid and abet” shill bidders—anyone who thinks otherwise is being disingenuous or is a fool. Do I then believe that, in lieu, eBay will now, of its own volition, step up to the plate and better detect and act against such shill bidders? Not on your Nelly! And the rest of this boiler-plate answer is simply more meaningless words seeking some form of purpose.
And on the same workshop venue danieloz@ebay.com responded to a questioner asking if there is any “publishable data to back up the claims that second chance offers are such a problem, or that shilling has not in fact increased since the introduction of “hidden” bidder IDs for bids >$250?”:
“It is difficult for us to get accurate data on second chance offers because this activity happens outside of eBay’s systems and is not always reported to us.
“However, I can assure you that eBay wouldn’t have lowered the limit to $0 when hiding bidder IDs if the results from the initial launch over a year ago weren’t positive.
“Once again, this initiative has no impact on shill bidding. There is no correlation between hidden IDs and shill bidding.”
The content of this statement expresses the similar “we see no problem” attitude to that of other initial boiler-plate responses invariably received from eBay Customer Support. If this grossly absurd statement (“… this initiative has no impact on shill bidding. There is no correlation between hidden IDs and shill bidding.”) truly reflects what eBay believes, one can only say that this is simply one more example of just how naïve (or disingenuous) and how far out of touch with the real world are the decision makers at eBay!
And again on the same eBay workshop danieloz@ebay.com responded to another question about eBay’s data on fraudulent Second Chance Offers with:
“eBay saw a dramatic drop in the number of reports received of fake second chance offers for items above $250 after introducing hidden IDs.
“However, what followed was that criminals started to target items below $250. So it only made sense to extend hidden IDs to $0.
“Fake second chance offers are one of the ugliest types of fraud experienced by buyers because they believe they are operating under eBay’s watchful eye, when in fact they are not. Any action to reduce eBay members falling victim to this type of fraud will benefit sellers by increasing confidence among buyers by ensuring less of them get into strife.”
No specific data—just more of the same meaningless words searching for a purpose. The simple fact is that underbidders can protect themselves from fake email “second chance offers” simply by ignoring them unless such offers are also received via the eBay website.
And another gem from another of eBay Customer Support’s boiler-plate statements on the matter:
“… a high percentage of members have registered an email address that is close or identical to their eBay User ID so it is easy for them [the fraudsters] to guess their email address based on their User ID,”
Surely, this is a absurd statement; and smells more like some sort of “red herring.” If eBay truly wanted to protect buyers from such activity then the obvious option, that has always been available, was to do away with the “second chance offer”; I would hypothesise, anyway, that most second chance offers are the result of the underbidder having been outbid by the seller’s shill. That indeed was the case with a genuine, and the only, “second chance offer” that I have ever received: the particular auction was for an artwork; when I then looked more closely at the supposedly non-paying winner there was a symbol indication that the winner had recently changed their User ID; on further investigation I noticed that the previous ID happened to be made up of the same uncommon name as that of the artist of the artwork item on which I had bid. To me then it was obvious, beyond any doubt, that this was a case of shill bidding, but not so to eBay when I reported it; eBay even disingenuously suggested that the offer was fraudulent.
One particular seller I have noticed is auctioning a constant stream of identical items, with a starting value at 1.00, sometimes with a “Reserve not met”, sometimes with the addition of a “Buy It Now” at USD49.99, and using “User ID kept private” to hide totally any vestige of bidder ID (search eBay for “bmw scan tool”). What possible purpose can be served by eBay allowing the use of “User ID kept private” by sellers of such petty items. What possible purpose could such a seller have for choosing to use “User ID kept private” for such petty items. Some cynics may think that the only purpose could be to ensure, by the means of shill bids, that any successful bidder pays at least USD49.99. So, I would again ask, where are those “sophisticated” shill-detecting tools that eBay claims to have?
I think eBay should reverse this latest decision on anonymity; indeed I think eBay should do away with all absolute anonymity of bidding, and eBay should, in particular, do away with the “User ID kept private” facility (or at least apply a substantial minimum starting value qualification) as all this anonymity—particularly “User ID kept private” and the alias style “Bidder n”—serves too effectively as a hide for shill bidders, and anyone who argues otherwise is either being disingenuous or is a fool. In lieu of such a reversal I think we can predict an eventual downturn in buyer activity. Certainly, this is one “white fella” who will undoubtedly be doing less buying on eBay.
In lieu of receiving eBay’s prompt advice that eBay intends to do away with all absolute anonymity in bidding and/or in the case of “User ID kept private” severely qualify its use, one has to consider reporting this situation to the Office of Fair Trading and to the media and anybody else who will listen. I can see the television “Current Affair” show promo now: “eBay not concerned about shill-bidding sellers ripping off buyers,” or possibly, “eBay Australia introduces absolute bidder anonymity to protect shill bidders.”
And another crazy eBay idea: the looming proposal to restrict all sellers from lodging negative feedback against buyers simply because some unscrupulous sellers have used such negative feedback in retaliation. As predominantly a buyer I have received three negative feedbacks from sellers (3/134); all have been in retaliation for negative feedback that I have lodged against them after all attempts to communicate were either exhausted or the response from the seller was not satisfactory. Unfortunately, eBay uses a totally different form of logic to me; I would have thought that, instead of stopping sellers from posting negative feedback if and when such feedback was truly deserved, the simple answer would have been to require sellers to lodge feedback first (as surely the transaction is satisfactory for the seller when they receive the consideration for the goods—credit card purchases from Nigeria excepted) before there can be any request for a buyer to lodge feedback. I think you can very quickly identify the potentially less scrupulous sellers as those who habitually delay lodging feedback until the buyer has done so, not that that sort of detail is generally available to potential bidders. Maybe eBay should consider publishing that statistic (ie, at that point in time how many supposed sales have not had any feedback lodged for them by the seller) on the Seller’s Feedback Profile page; better still, on the primary auction page. A large enough number of “sales” sans feedback could also indicate the possibility of shill bidding.
What say you eBay?
This is what sell Coinsplusinc Feedback (5541) has to say about Ebay IN THEIR LISTINGS! "If you are new to eBAY, welcome. Think about what it takes to make a community a positive place and make your efforts to leave eBay better than you found it. After years of experience and well over 10,000 transactions through eBAY and PAYPAL, we have positively concluded that they do not care about you or us beyond the revenue generated from the sale. Our experience is that they have the worst customer service of any company we have ever dealt with."
I'd have to concur withis analysis, and add by saying Ebay HAS NO CUSTOMER SERVICE, ZERO COMMON SENSE, AND CERTAINLY ZERO COMPASSION FOR THEIR DEALERS!! I WILL CLOSE BY SAYING THAT MY FEEDBACK'S ARE OVER 12000!!! I will sign out as Jim, overworked and underappreciated!
blogs.wsj.com/washwire...
They tanked my Ebay business TWICE now. I won't even BUY on Ebay anymore and I used to buy almost EVERYTHING I own there.
But of course, I no longer have any money to spend anywhere!
I hope that Ebay falls into the Pacific Ocean.
What makes you do these things you do,
It’s GREED that’s taken over you,
You’ve forgot who made you who you are,
The little people from near and far
People signed up and sold for you,
Paying the fees with out a fuss,
A little more and a little more,
You started taking part of us.
Bigger and bigger you became,
The little people signed up more,
Your profits went through the roof,
And ours were going out the door.
Now you’ve just gone too far,
Our profits, our rights and more,
Selling on your website,
Just isn’t fun or profitable anymore.
So wake up Mr. Donahoe
You will be joining Mr. Cobb
Ebay will soon become silent
And you too will be out of a job!
Ebay may be ivy league, but they must've skipped the lessons in ethics... and while they can count nickels, they -apparently- lack common sense, which can't be taught.
On 2008 Mar 02 09:34 AM LuckyCricket wrote:
> I took the opportunity during the first week of the boycott to find
> a new home, and I am mostly a BUYER! I woule occasionally sell some
> items on ebay, however that money was in turn used to BUY other items
> on ebay. NO LONGER! This is not a company that I will invest my money,
> time or loyalty in as they have demonstrated they don't have any
> morals or ethics! I have moved to Ecrater.com and opened a totallt
> FREE store with no item limits, no listing fees no final valuation
> fees and an AWESOME community of people who are welcoming the refugees
> with open arms. Ebay is making itself irrelevent! theeclecticcollector.e.../