Seeking Alpha

Andrew Ling


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There are currently three major thin film players (defined as the three companies with over $1 billion in thin-film assets): First Solar (FSLR), Sharp (SHCAY.PK) and Applied Materials (AMAT). There are numerous other thin-film startups that are in such early phases of development that it's difficult to analyze potential production and capex costs if their technology ever matures. These are mostly CIGS companies and include Nanosolar, Miasole, Heliovolt, Ascent Solar (ASTI), DayStar Technologies (DSTI) and countless others. Most have struggled to get manufacturing efficiencies over 6% for industrial usage. This doesn't include the aerospace panels which can achieve 20% but are incredibly expensive.

FSLR has been the industry leader for years, but can they maintain their advantages in the face of such fierce competition? All signs indicate that they indeed can. It has been common knowledge that FSLR's technology is about two years ahead of all competitors. Many of the CIGS startups are at the same stage that FSLR was in 2006. They're all operating in the test-plant phase before scaling up mass production.

Cramer has been bullish on FSLR since the summer of last year when it was trading at $50. I've been buying aggresively since it was at $33 and it now accounts for the majority of my invesment holdings. Cramer recently became so emphatic about buying FSLR that he went bearish on all other solar stocks, with the exception of AMAT,, on the belief that FSLR would eat everyone's lunch.

So, according to Cramer, AMAT is positioned #2 in the solar industry. As a supplier of production machinery, they are not in direct competitors with numerous thin-film producers and don't have to worry about raising the heavy capital required for production. AMAT plans on selling $1.7 billion in thin-film equipment by 2009. This is a staggering amout which surpasses even FSLR. At first, this seems like very bad news for FSLR. When digging through the numbers, however, it may turn out to be quite the opposite. AMAT's capex/watt is stated at $3/watt as opposed to FSLR's $1/watt. Sharp's capex has been reported at approximately $2 billion/GW, or $2/watt. This may or may not be accurate, since Sharp is also considering purchasing AMAT product.

Basically, $1.5 billion in AMAT equipment will have the annual production of $500 million in FSLR equipment. The fact that so many competitors are willing to pay triple for AMAT's equipment shows the incredible lead FSLR has on the rest of the field. Secondly, AMAT has stated a goal of getting manufacturing costs of the panels down to $1/watt by 2010. FSLR, by comparison, has a goal of approximately $.60/watt by 2010 according to their grid parity roadmap. As of the end of 2007, FSLR's manufacturing cost/watt was already at $1.12. Unless the dollar crashes further, which would slightly increase costs but greatly increase profits, they should break below $1/watt this year. Another indication of their two-year lead: reports are that 40% of the cost in manufacturing conventional solar panels comes from the silicon. At $1/watt, FSLR's manufacturing costs would rival conventional PV even if their silicon was free. Recent forecasts indicate further polysilicon shortages well into 2009.

With $700 million in cash and the ability to raise billions more, it's hard to imagine any of the smaller competitors chipping into FSLR's two-year lead. The only thing that concerns me is whether bigger players with tens of billions in capital to invest, such as GE (GE) or BP (BP), get into the thin-film game. At their current pace of growth, FSLR's lead may be insurmoutable in a few years when grid parity is acheived. With a three year backlog in product and a 30% operating margin, I feel FSLR has been too conservative in its growth plans. During their secondary offering last July, they diluted shares outstanding by 10% in order to essentially triple output by 2009. I had expected them to announce another stock offering and at least four new 160 MW plants in the first half of this year. This is in line with analyst expectations, judging by 2010 earnings estimates which top $8/share. There's still a chance this might be announced upon earnings next month. The first to reach grid parity will see such explosive growth that their competitors will probably be relugated to "also-ran" status. In the solar arena, grid parity will be the same sort of monopolistic turning point which allowed Intel (INTC) and Microsoft (MSFT) to crush its competition in the late 80s/early 90s. Energy, a $5 trillion annual industry worldwide, is potentially even more rewarding.

Disclosure: I'm a full time investor with over 50% of my holdings in a large long position in FSLR.

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This article has 54 comments:

  •  
    Andrew,

    I've begun studying solar stocks and I like your investing style (similar to mine w/ Apple!). Pls recommend links to blogs and other information sources I should use.
    2008 Apr 13 05:42 AM | Link | Reply
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    It would be nice to know how much $ per year FSLR has sent to AMAT for equipment.
    2008 Apr 13 07:38 AM | Link | Reply
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    pk de cville, some of my favorite investing resources include investor's business daily investors.com (FSLR is the #1 ranked energy stock there) solarbuzz.com peakoil.net. Also click on bio and more articles and check out some of my previous blogs.

    Zawy, I doubt FSLR purchases any equipment from AMAT. FSLR has been in the business longer and is very secretive about their proprietary manufacturing techniques. It wouldn't make sense to allow AMAT to develop their equipment and risk them selling it to competitors.
    2008 Apr 13 08:29 AM | Link | Reply
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    holding over 50% in one stock is almost criminal unless you have only few 1000's.
    i like FSLR but like other investors i have some issues with the telluium inventories.
    one must be very careful when a stock is so richly valued and yet has an issue with it's main raw material' which it doesn't fully disclose in it's reports.
    2008 Apr 13 10:56 AM | Link | Reply
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    1. Nanosolar is not a CIGS company.
    2. CIGS companies do not use Tellurium, which can be an advantage on the long run. (although is too early to invest CIGS, I agree)
    3. The question is not that FSLR can achieve aggressiv growth, but how much of this already priced in.
    2008 Apr 13 11:32 AM | Link | Reply
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    Sorry, I was wrong. nanosolar is also CIGS
    2008 Apr 13 11:42 AM | Link | Reply
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    Printing solar cells was associated with Dye-sensitized solar cells in my mind.
    2008 Apr 13 11:48 AM | Link | Reply
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    cramer and IBD is the kiss of death for an undisciplined investor. when cramer reccomends a stock it's time to run.
    nanosolar looks like a probable winner in the solar sector but it isn't public and not planning to become one at this stage.
    WFR is a good way to play the solar game with relative safety.
    at this stage the traditinal PV has lot of room to grow and big names like SPWR STP will probably make money for investors.
    as the solar world is just starting to cranck one should make a mix of companies as it isn't clear which company will become a winner and what technology will prevail. one can use an ETF or choose few stocks.
    don't put all the eggs in one basket since the risk is huge' unless you are a trader and as such use trading system rules.
    2008 Apr 13 12:10 PM | Link | Reply
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    Steve,
    Which publicly traded CIGS company can be interesting?
    cheers,
    Turpi
    2008 Apr 13 12:20 PM | Link | Reply
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    Rana, Nanosolar's own CEO was quoted as saying the company is worth about $1 billion. Hardly the "probable winner." Don't get me wrong when Nanosolar IPOs I'll have to buy a few thousand shares just to be safe. But they have yet to disclose any solid figures on production and capex costs. Also, the promises they were making last year were made by Maisole 5 years ago. Neither has made much progress since.

    Steve, I guarantee you Nanosolar is unable to produce at $.60/watt today. They've spent hundreds of millions to produce maybe 20 MW so far. They're having all kinds of problems and missing all kinds of goals on their roadmap. I remember when I heard in Feb. 2007 how Nanosolar was going to produce 400 MW at $.60/watt by the end of 2007 I nearly passed on buying FSLR. At the same time FSLR was supposed to turn profitable in 2009. The track records speak for themselves. I also drove by their headquarters and I was not impressed. By 2010 the smaller companies that fail to achieve breakthroughs will find it difficult to obtain financing. For a newer technology to displace an older one it has to be far superior. With conversion efficiencies of 6% and countless manufacturing problems CIGS has hardly proven itself superior. The lower the efficiency the higher the installation costs will be.

    2008 Apr 13 02:34 PM | Link | Reply
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    I am a sales rep for Uni-Solar which is a division of ticker,ENER.
    It is flexible,sticks like a "band aid" to the roofing substrate,and has been around for a long time relative to competiton. You don't want to be spending a bunch of money on a new solar technology.
    2008 Apr 13 03:26 PM | Link | Reply
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    no arguing here
    exactly what i meant when i said we need to buy more than one stock.
    i am almost sure that solar will be huge in the years to come, but i can't tell with certainty who'll be the big winner so i prefer to buy a portfolio and trade part of it on regular basis
    i have FSLR on my portfolio but i keep the position size close tp other solar stocks i hold.
    for the more advanced traders/investors you can use selling puts on monthly basis till you reach the price that you're willing to pay for the stocks you want to own, if prices seem too high for you. the logic is that in bull markets like the solar there will be wild shakeouts and till they come we can use extreme volatility to "milk" some $ from the market
    the last part is only intended to those that know options professionally
    2008 Apr 13 03:31 PM | Link | Reply
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    Andrew, markox5 from yahoo boards - just curious - when we last talked you said you would not be selling anY FSLR for many years - now I see you moved 50% away. #1 did you sell any or are you just buying other things? #2 what did you move the other 50% to? ( I thought last we talked it was SPWR/STP)

    p.s. congrats on your conviction for holding FSLR through thick and thin :)
    2008 Apr 13 04:31 PM | Link | Reply
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    Unwise to display ignorance about CPV technology - concentrated solar if you are providing investment advice ("This doesn't include the aerospace panels which can achieve 20% but are incredibly expensive.").

    Spectrolab 3j cells are now up to 47% efficient. Distributed CPV systems are expected to amortise at around grid cost when they go into production, probably about the same time we can buy EV's & PHEV's in a few years time.

    Together they will reduce our elctricity and transport costs substantially.
    2008 Apr 13 06:48 PM | Link | Reply
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    XSNX is a startup that was not mentioned and will use their own equipment designs. They are not converting a building Oregon and they use thin film tech. Their overall efficiency is one of the best when including incident angle from non tracking installations. From my viewpoint, Xsunx can easily double or tripple while I don't know about FSLR doing that for quite a while. See this link for a comparative analysis of XSNX technology vs the others. www.xsunx.com/tech-ana...
    2008 Apr 13 06:50 PM | Link | Reply
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    correction: XSNX is now converting a building in Oregon which was built for semi mfg but never used.
    2008 Apr 13 06:51 PM | Link | Reply
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    Global Solar, Steve? They produce 4 MW/year. In the very same article it mentioned how Miasole, a much higher profile name, was stuck at 4-6%. I'm not interested in what will dominate the market in 30 years. I'm interested in 2012. PV has been known to achieve 42% efficiency in labs. Efficiency is meaningless without the context of price. Global Solar's definition of "volume" is probably not sufficient to get the price below $2/watt. In fact I have never seen any concrete figures for CIGS costs, probably because no one has been able to produce in volume. This is a safe assumption since all of them are deep in the red.
    2008 Apr 13 10:52 PM | Link | Reply
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    According to wikipedia Global Solar is actually the CIGS "market leader."
    That's stunning at only 4 MW/year. The entry may be slightly outdated but it's still an eye opener. Like I said all the CIGS companies have major obstacles to overcome.
    2008 Apr 13 11:01 PM | Link | Reply
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    fslr looks extremely like jnpr and csco back in 200-2001. silicon and cigs will kill their margins at wharp speed over the coming 2-3 years and then watch out below. fslr is a strong sell at 260$+ as all those nice earnings growth projections are soon headed for the dust bin. around may when their recent quarter gets reported we will in all likelihood see the all-time high of this overhyped stock - if we haven't seen it already
    2008 Apr 14 06:38 AM | Link | Reply
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    FX, as I stated in my article Silicon is no longer a threat in the industrial market. Many of the largest solar farms in the world 20 MW+ already use FSLR product. The return on investment for electricity generators in Germany using FSLR product is between 8-12% depending on system size. This is simply the best government guaranteed investment in the world. Imagine a Euro denominated bond that yielded 12%! Even with subsidies falling 8% annually FSLR's prices have fallen at an even faster rate.

    This year FSLR will cross the $1/watt threshold which will make their product cheaper than monocrystaline even if silicon were free. With by far the largest margins in the business it's no wonder FSLR is the first solar stock to touch new highs. People used to think STP was the "safe play" in solar because of their low PE. Obviously they were wrong as STP has been hammered this year. If there's oversupply in 2009 and beyond FSLR will be hurt, but not nearly as much as STP and the like. They will be struggling to stay in the black.
    2008 Apr 14 09:11 AM | Link | Reply
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    I haven't read all the comments, so forgive me if I redig a trench. I first thought, I can't wait to stick on of those suckers on my roof (solar panel or some sort). My next thought was, I'd rather have my utility company buying these things in BULK, installing them on THEIR properties, and gouging me LESS for my KWs. I'd rather pay less per month for energy, not own the things and not have to look at them.

    Stick a few in the sky over the desert, tether them to the earth, and have a side business selling "shade".
    2008 Apr 14 12:19 PM | Link | Reply
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    Steve, Nanosolar may be the CIGS leader, but as far as I know they have yet to produce the flexible panels which are "100 times cheaper and made 100 times faster" outside of the lab. Instead they've been cranking out the not so glamorous glass substrate product, albeit also in small quantities. Very few people are aware of this bait and switch technique. If you read Nanosolar's news articles they've been promising the same things for 18 months with very little concrete signs of progress. You can easily find articles from early 2007 obviously written by people ignorant of the industry that state that "thanks to Nanosolar, solar is now cheaper than coal." I doubt the coal industry is shaking in their boots.

    This is why I'm turned off by the CIGS companies. None of them have delivered on their timetables to date. Nanosolar said they would produce 400MW by the end of 2007. Yet with only a few hundred million dollars, the math didn't add up. Sure enough they produced perhaps 1MW. Perhaps the building is big enough to produce 400 MW some day but they forgot to mention it was 95% empty right now. It's the exact opposite of what you have with FSLR which has risen by 30%+ 3 of the 4 quarters they've announced earnings thats to underpromising and overdelivering.
    2008 Apr 14 02:44 PM | Link | Reply
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    BTW, Steve, if you can come up with a link to a balance sheet which shows the cost of product at 60 to 80 cents it would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise, I'm going to assume you're referring to Nanosolar's CEO's statements which I don't give much credence to. Even excluding capex depreciation, which will be massive for underutilized production equipment, with the number of employees/MW these startups have there is no way they are anywhere near economies of scale. The only way they could achieve 60 cents is by excluding all costs other than the materials. Unfortunately, that's an unrealistic way to look at things. e.g. an electric car costs on average about 1/4 as much to run but everyone knows electric cars are not considered "cheaper"
    2008 Apr 14 03:02 PM | Link | Reply
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    What do you guys think about Ascent Solar (ASTI)? According to their latest 10k, they will be producing CIGS PV on a flexible plastic substrate for a manufacturing cost of $1.00 per watt at the module level, at only 30MW yearly capacity by 2010. When they reach 110MW capacity in 2011 they claim their manufacturing cost will be $.90 per watt. For such a low capacity, this seems amazingly cheap...

    Also, Norsk Hydro (huge Norwegian aluminum building materials producer), just upped their stake in the company to 35%, and they have recently announced some other promising strategic partnerships.

    It seems likely to me that if this company can reach an annual capacity comparable to some of the bigger players like FSLR, they will blow away the competition as far as cost per watt. I mean, at the end of 2007 FSLR was at over 200MW annual capacity, and they could not produce modules for a dollar per watt yet...
    2008 Apr 14 05:26 PM | Link | Reply
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    P.S. The biggest problem I have with ASTI is their conservative time-line, but as was mentioned earlier, CIGS companies have been notorious for announcing time-lines they cannot meet. I see the management at Ascent as being justifiably conservative in light of the failures of their predecessors.
    2008 Apr 14 05:34 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    Great contributions. Much going on although there seem to be some obvious conclusions. For those who don't want to watch individual company/technbique progress, would anyone rcommend a good ETF/ETN or mutual fund emphasizing solar, and within that , the best of solar companies?
    2008 Apr 14 06:35 PM | Link | Reply
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    ASTI has all of 34 employees and a market cap of 134 M. So producing "only" 110 MW in 2011 at a profit of $1/W would be a fantastic PE=1.3. Better than FSLR can dream of. DSTI's web site says CIGS can easily beat CdTe's efficiency at 20%. 15% seems more reasonable at ASTI for 2011 which would make it directly competitive with FSLR after installation costs are taken into account (15% better efficiency for ASTI means 30% lower installed cost, making the $1/W more comparable to FSLR's anticipated $0.70 per watt in 2012).

    I wouldn't discount < 200 micron Si as everyone else here has. I've switched from FSLR to CSIQ. CSIQ has been ramping production even faster than FSLR and their projected PE is five times better. They also expect to increase margin by a factor of 3 compared to FSLR just keeping their 45% margin. FSLR and CIGS will not produce enough to satisfy demand. Si has it's place. But if demand does wane, Si can be crushed. That "tripling" of margin i mentioned for CSIQ is going from 5% to 15%. If demand wanes away from the more expensive cells, FSLR will not suffer a bit but the Si players will go negative margin overnight.

    It's a fascinating field with a lot of entertainment to come. But they won't be able to supply as much energy as nuclear which is why i'm also in PKN.
    2008 Apr 14 07:39 PM | Link | Reply
  •  
    Andrew, I have been tracking Energy stocks now for about six months. Obviously you have landed a home run with First Solar in the PV market..

    I have recently gone to several different Solar Conferences and have become more interested in Concentrated Solar or CSP. Do you forsee and of these companies like Ausra going public anytime soon? Also, a new company called Sopogy, who will be manufacturing Micro CSP panels plans to hit the distributed generation market pretty hard. Have you heard of this company and what kind of insight can you give me regading their strategy of focusing on the CSP market on a distributed generation level between 1-20mw? Interestd to hear your thoughts..
    2008 Apr 14 08:59 PM | Link | Reply
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    Zawy, I consider ASTI one of those interesting companies worth following but to early to buy, much like ALTI. With $1 million in annual revenues it's simply too early to buy. There's nothing wrong with waiting for it to go up five or tenfold before jumping in. A poker analogy would be like having AK before the flop with many of these small caps but having Aces and Kings on a safe board at the river with a large cap name like FSLR. The majority of the time these companies are dead money until they have an obvious path to profitability. ASTI's panels demonstrate PV's potential but it's a huge crossover to go from NASA applications to industrial usage.

    Colin, CSP may be in all the headlines right now with all the huge several hundred megawatt panels, but much like wind the technology has been around so long that the best way for them to reduce costs is simply by increasing system size. I don't think smaller distributed systems are the way to go. CSP may have low materials costs but there are also maintenance costs which would increase with smaller systems. Besides that, you lose power output/acre when building outside the Arizona and Nevada deserts. I've looked at the major alternatives to PV but they all cost at least $2.00-$2.50/watt, including nuclear. At that price there's presently no urgency for CSP as it's not quite at grid parity. However, I'm an adamant peak oil theorist and if Oil were to break above $200 in the next few years, which has been my #1 wildcard reason for investing in FSLR (best return on energy investment among the major players), wind, CSP, EVs, nuclear, and coal would be the only real ways to make up the slack. Attention would shift away from the "future" in PV towards today.

    I'm not an expert in CSP but I can't imagine one of them coming through with a breakthrough proprietary technology. So if they did IPO I wouldn't be particularly interested. Colin, do you have any info on the installed costs for distributed CSP?

    I've also owned STP, SPWR, CREE, CCJ, and ZOLT over the last two years but in the end I always sell them off when their stocks start behaving improperly e.g. weak relative strength. I would still consider buying SPWR if polysilicon prices drop drastically, CREE if LED prices drop drastically, and CCJ or FXI if I can't find anything more attractive to buy.

    What I'd really like to invest in is an Electric Vehicle company like Tesla that can challenge the major automakers. I'm surprised there aren't major EV players out of China or India dominating the market already. Unfortunately they're losing their window of opportunity as the GM Volt and next-gen Prius will come out in a couple years.
    2008 Apr 14 11:08 PM | Link | Reply
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    Nuclear costs $0.017 to $0.029/kWh verses $0.02/kWh for coal and the future installed price of FSLR. FSLR will never have a reason to charge less than coal. Nuclear must be cheap since something like 10% of the world's electricity is already made by nuclear. The costs have been decreasing the last 20 years, while coal has gone up. Uranium ("at the pump") is currently half the price of coal.

    www.uic.com.au/nip08.h...

    I agree ASTI is really early in the game, especially in light of nanosolar apparently not living up to the hype.

    The chart in the link above is interesting: the at $0.08/kWh and quickly rising for gas and oil, solar could NOW be used by power companies as peaking units to offset peaks in air conditioning units during sunny days. Those peaking units are a major reason gas has increased so much in recent years. 10 to 5 years ago, there was a flood of U.S. power companies installing gas turbines as peaking units. I went to one of them being installed and thought "this is insane". I knew even then gas didn't need to be used for that kind of thing. Now flywheels made by BCON could replace those turbines....as well as evening out the output of wind farms.
    2008 Apr 15 07:48 AM | Link | Reply
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    Zawy, you're talking about the fuel costs which as we know is 0 with solar. The cheapest a nuclear plant has ever been built for is $2 billion. Exelon claims they can build one for $1 billion but that's just their claim. I've read coal capex is $1/watt though I dont know how accurate that is.
    2008 Apr 15 10:47 AM | Link | Reply
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    I have to wonder how you could be long a stock that a)receives so much of its revenue from subsidies which could be taken away or minimized at any time; b)is an industrial products mfg that earns >30% operating margins- you think that is sustainable; c)doesn't really have a cost advantage if you take the entire system cost into account. It seems like a very risky investment.
    2008 Apr 15 11:08 AM | Link | Reply
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    >>>Several companies in the CIGS space have achieved these milestones, therefore the CIGS hype is rapidly approaching reality. Identifying & investing in the CIGS co has "the right stuff" to commercialize will produce spectacular investment gains.<<<

    I agree about the possible gains, which is why I initially invested in ASTI and DSTI last October. Because of the inherent risk, these were small investments. I figured that if the time came when one of these companies became more distinguished as a winner, I would pull my money out of the other company and put it all with the winner (possibly along with more). I have long since identified DSTI as a looser, and pulled my money out accordingly. As for ASTI, I recently upped my stake in the wake of the Bear Sterns debacle. I am glad I did as the PPS has doubled since then.

    While ASTI has yet to truly prove themselves, it is looking more and more to me like this is the CIGS company to invest in. They have big money on their side (35% owner Norsk Hydro), they have great management (which so far has not failed to deliver on a single stated goal), they recently announced IOC (initial operating capacity) for their 1.5MW pilot line, and they have amazing and unique technology.

    Ascent is the only player who seems to have succeeded in rolling out monolithically integrated CIGS modules on a flexible plastic substrate. Their process does not require expensive vacuum deposition chambers, and unlike Nanosolar, Ascent's monolithic integration technique allows them to roll out CIGS PV at the module level, rather than the cell level. Here is some data from their recent 10K. It's pretty impressive:
    google.brand.edgar-onl...
    If they can pull off what they say they can, I believe Ascent Solar will revolutionize the PV industry.
    2008 Apr 15 01:42 PM | Link | Reply
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    Andrew, my numbers are total cost for kWh, including capital costs, maintenance, refining, and disposal. Nuclear is more cost effective than coal and it doesn't have a 1 TWp (200 GW actual) theoretical maximum like all thin films combined. It has been competitive with coal in the past, achieving today 25% of the world kWh produced by coal. It now costs even less. The price of nuclear is 4 years ahead of solar. If global warming gets worse press, nuclear may start to be viewed as the new green energy. It emits no particulates, SO2, NOx, CO, mercury, or CO2. Those $2B plants produce 1GW for 40 years. That's a good number for comparing to FSLR: in 2010 it will be producing the equivalent of one nuclear power plant. If you've ever been around a nuclear power plant, you know how amazing an achievement that is. In 1987 the world produced 0.5TW of nuclear and it hasn't increased much since then, but the industry has been incubating (slowly researching and achieving) to be safer and cheaper.
    2008 Apr 15 01:47 PM | Link | Reply
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    Peaple makes two mistakes when looking at FSLR:
    1)They fail to make apples to apples comparisons. You have to look at FSLR's installed costs (what it will actually cost the end consumer) to get a true apples to apples. FSLR's equipment requires considerably more electrical components and taken into account its cost advantage is much less , say around 10%. Even if it is more, it is not fair to comapre it to its $2.20 competitor price.
    2)The promise of solar is that it would be distributive generation but FSLR's tech is not practical to sit upon a roof top as it needs to large a footprint. Such distribution costs can add 5cents kwh to get it into the grid.

    COME ON - A MARKET CAP GREATER THAN 20BIL WHEN THEY ARE ALMOST ENTIRELY RELIANT ON GERMANY FOR SUBSIDIES AND HAVE SO MANY COMPETITORS BREATHING DOWN THEIR THROATS!
    2008 Apr 15 01:55 PM | Link | Reply
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    Andrew, my numbers were kWh, not kW. If FSLR eventually sells for $1.5/Wp and the end user's total cost installed is $3/W and you place it in the best desert in the U.S. (8kWh/day yearly avg) and it's at 12% efficiency for 25 years, then FSLR cost is 4 cents/kWh verses nuclear's 2.5 cents.
    2008 Apr 15 01:56 PM | Link | Reply
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    Steve, people should look at watt-hr instead of watts, but no one really knows how long the various technologies will last and it depends on environment. ASTI reports that someday they will reach $0.90/W so that's a slight addendum for the CIGS. CdTe is currently $1.12/W which is not fair since they expect to be $0.60/W in 5 years. Si will also decrease. Also, installed costs are roughly $1.5/W which dilutes all of the differences from a buyers standpoint. A better number to look at is profit/Watt (or profit/kWh) and no one can beat FSLR on that because they are here and now and can have a huge margin because competitors are behind. Then there are the incurable metal shortages which will stop FSLR in 2012 and CIGS in 2013.

    ASTI reports an expected Capex of $2/Wp capacity, or $0.30/Wp if they are able to churn CIGS out for 7 years. Converting from peak to actual is about $1.5/W, comparable to nuclear capital expenditure.

    Where is ASTI going to get $220M plus $50M in R&D and G&A over the next 4 years?
    2008 Apr 15 02:50 PM | Link | Reply
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    One of the things we have yet to hear (as far as I know) is some estimate of the lifespan of Ascent's products. I know that glass modules have certain advantages over flexible plastic or foil as far as encapsulation. This, I think, is one of the major problems which prompted companies such as Daystar to switch to glass. CIGS is very vulnerable to moisture ingress, and thus requires effective encapsulation. Apparently a barrier coating suitable for use on flexible CIGS has been developed and will be commercialized under the brand name Vitex.
    www.nrel.gov/pv/thin_f...
    I assume Ascent will use a similar coating. If anyone here has more info regarding Ascent's addressing of the encapsulation issue, please post a response. It would be greatly appreciated.
    2008 Apr 15 04:30 PM | Link | Reply
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    ICP Solar Technologies - new and has arrangements with ASTI - is there anything unique about it?
    2008 Apr 15 06:40 PM | Link | Reply
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    The thing about nuclear is this: where else are we going to get the energy? Especially at night and "low-light", "windless" areas. For example, the northeast U.S. Worldwide, there's not enough indium and tellurium for more than 200 GW (1 TWp) and it doesn't seem like Si will get down to twice the price of coal. Even the thin-film claims of "grid parity" are not true if it's going to continue to cost $1.5/Wp installed. In a post above I showed how that causes FSLR's best future price (no tellurium shortage) in the perfect sunny location to be 4 cents/kWh, almost twice the cost of coal electricity production in the U.S. and equal to the price in France. At-home units would cost twice as much which means consumers even in the U.S. should install residentially to bypass the power company profit and distribution costs/losses (we currently pay 10 cents/kwh). My point is that thin film will barely meet coal/nuclear costs which means Si doesn't have a chance. So the question is, if nuclear isn't the answer for future energy needs, what is? The gain in nuclear stocks isn't from an installed plant 20 years from now, but the planning and construction going on now. Construction is planned to begin on about 100 nuclear power plants in the next 15 years. 30 just in China. Each reactor (a plant can have 1 to 4) is about 1GW, so each plant is equal to FSLR's 2011 or 2012 output which will require 100% of the world's annual tellurium production (500 tonnes/yr). Nuclear makes up about 6.5% of the world's energy production, and as the oil runs out, guess where the majority of new energy will come from. If nuclear can't come online fast enough, I'd be selling my FSLR/ASTI in 2011 before the metals run out and place it in nukes for a great retirement and inheritance. I'm switching to nuke now before everyone else catches on.
    2008 Apr 16 03:03 AM | Link | Reply
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    Correcting bad English: thin-film seems to be $1.5/Wp installed. My 4 cents/kWh for FSLR in 2012 assumes $3/Wp installed as calculated in previous post. I should say Si doesn't seem to be able to get down to 4 times the cost of coal/nuclear in most locations at $5/Wp installed (half today's price?) and using the average 4 kWh/day/m^2 for southeast U.S. and 25 year lifespan. Since silicon can come online faster than nuke and out-supply thin-film and since the PE's are really good now, I have a position in CSIQ (smaller, faster growing) and BCON (currently the only way to store the energy for night-time to recharge your car - new carbon composite flywheels under vacuum, 5% loss overnight). But BCON's a long-long way from that use and it's not really a secret technology.

    I would like to have a 25 kWh flywheel unit to get me through the night if i had a 10 kWp solar cell installation powering the house. Make that 50 kWh flywheel and 20 kWp solar if I need an additional 1 gallon of fuel per day for a car. Nuclear would be a lot cheaper at $300 a month at 15 cents/kWh. For 20 kWp future Si solar cells/thermal solar (you can forget thin film as explained above) might cost as little as $100,000 installed and $50,000 for the $1/kWh storage overnight. This is the nuclear and solar cell cost for the equivalent of 2 gallons of fuel a day for house electricity and avg use of one car: $150,000 loan ($1,200/month for 25 years) for solar or $300/month for nuclear. The average per capita of the U.S. is twice as much, 4 "gallons" a day of energy (including manufacturing, food, etc, everything).
    2008 Apr 16 03:54 AM | Link | Reply
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    Very nice discussion. Its true that cost reduction for Si PV technology will be very difficult as indicated by Steve Pluvia. a-Si:H solar cell, though coming in a big way but CdTe or CIGS may take lead as long as Te based devices not declared as toxic and there are enough supply of Selenium. But I am wondering why there is no company coming with CIGS and CdTe lines. I think investors are still waiting for this kind of activity. Hope AMAT will bring good technology for CdTe (may be not before installing sufficient a-Si:H lines). Nano based solar cell still need some time for mature. Looking for bright future in thin film solar cell.
    Dr. D. Sarangi
    (Email: d.sarangi@sify.com
    Email: debajyoti.sarangi@gmai...
    2008 Apr 16 06:20 AM | Link | Reply
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    Looks like I'm late to the nuclear party: the WNAI index upon which PKN is based has increased 400% in the past 5 years. I didn't know i was that much out of the loop.
    2008 Apr 16 06:31 AM | Link | Reply
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    Dr Sarangi, I don't think any of the players have the capital to focus on both technologies right now. Look at the solar cash cow, STP, and their venture into thin-film which I believe is a mistake. It unlikely to have much effect on sales since customers will simply choose one or the other not both. It's too early at this phase to try to build a solar conglomerate unless the likes of GE or BP decide to invest tens of billions. Each company needs to focus all their resources towards maximizing the viability of a single product.

    The most astonishing thing about FSLR to date has been their manufacturing prowess which often overlooked but cannot be overstated. Less than 1 year ago their lines were rated at 25MW/year. They are already up to 44MW/line which greatly reduces costs and increases revenues. As they were already running 24/7 on 4 shifts/day to achieve 25MW/year/line the gains were obviously major leaps forward. I suspect one reason they haven't announced 4 new plants yet is because they're still trying to tweak out more production from their old ones.
    2008 Apr 16 10:14 AM | Link | Reply
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    I don't see where i made an error. I gave FSLR $3/Wp in 2012, which is pretty much the same as $3.50 now. We know they're selling now close to $2/Wp, so that gives the same installation cost ($1.50/Wp) which I assume won't go down much and I expect them to keep a $1/Wp profit margin. They expect to reduce costs by $0.50/Wp by 2012, so my numbers are pretty much exact on that. Keep in mind that $3/Wp is $14 per actual watt when averaged over 24 hr in relatively sunny places like the southeast U.S. that averages only 5kWh/day/m^2 of sun. The best places in the world are 9 kWh/day which would be $8/W actual as the best FSLR can ever do. This is before distribution and power company profit margins, so i don't know why you're complaining about the same omission when it comes to coal and nukes. Is there something cheaper about solar cell distribution? The costs for solar will be even higher on home installations. Notice that my 15 cents/kWh at the house for nuke is 5 times higher than the accepted 3 cents/kWh for nuclear. This allows 60% losses, a great profit margin, and overcoming even U.S. regulatory hurdles. Of course coal could have CO2 and that's just another reason to go nuclear. Let me know if you find any errors in my numbers.
    2008 Apr 16 01:29 PM | Link | Reply
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    Steve, I said southeast, not southwest. Here's the "solar insolation" on wiki for the sunlight chart:
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    It's for standard latitude tilt, south facing solar systems. 6-7 kWh/d/m^2 for most of southwest, 5-5.5 for southeast, yearly average. Multiply by 13% efficiency x 365 x 25 yr to get the amount of 7117 kWh/25yr/m^2 for 13% eff modules. A m^2 of FSLR will someday be 13% producing which is 130 Wpeak/m^2 (1 kW/m^2 max Sun x 0.13) and at $3/Wpeak means $260/m^2 for FSLR. For 6 kWh/d/m^2 this yields $260/7117 = $0.0365/kWh/25yr

    I used $1/Wp profit to help justify current stock price and as long as there is no competition, they don't need to lower it. We can reduce it to $0.50/Wp to get $0.03/kwh/25 yr. $1/Wp installation might also be possible, bringing it down to $0.024/kWh/25yr

    These numbers are for large installations. Small installations might be twice as high, less than the $0.08/kWh you've calculated.

    A 10kWp solar system would provide only 1.7 kW when averaged over 24 hour. A household of 2 requires about 6 kW averaged over the course of a day to power the house and car. This would require a 30 kWp solar system at the house. Someday, an installed system at the house might be only $4/Wp including energy storage and therefore cost only $0.05/kWh, but that's a $120K loan to be paid off, something like $900/month on a 25-year loan, and the system is used up by the end of the loan. Suddenly it doesn't look like a $0.05/kWh system (half price from the utlity) anymore. That's the importance of making a distinction between Wp and actual watts: the large initial outlay. So the $2/W capital cost of coal and nuclear can't be compared to the $1/Wp capital cost of solar cells, because that $2/W is 24 hr/day for 40 years but the $1/Wp for solar cells averages out to $5/W over 24 hours for 25 years.

    If you have some numbers showing how solar distribution is a lot cheaper than nuclear distribution, I'd like to see them. Likewise, i'd like to see a source that says daytime power is 5 times more valuable.

    30 nuke plants are being built right now. Construction itself takes 4 years (from WNAI web site). In the U.S., it's obviously a little more difficult than that.
    2008 Apr 17 05:58 PM | Link | Reply
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    Steve that is not quite right. Check out solarbuzz's method for calculating cost/kwh you guys. $5/watt installed costs about 21 cents/kwh, so $3/watt installed would be 12.5 cents/kwh. Under $2.50/watt installed is the magic number.
    2008 Apr 17 07:36 PM | Link | Reply
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    My calculation is the same except they take into account a 5% "loan" for having to up-front the costs. That gives 10 cents/kWh at $2.5/Wp when the loan is spread out over 25 years. A more realistic 7% loan for home owners would make it 12 cents/kWh. Currently the price is $8/Wp. The magic number for utilities to find it profitable is more like $1.25/Wp.

    solarbuzz.com/Consumer...

    2008 Apr 17 08:05 PM | Link | Reply
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    Is it wise to install a solar system in an area that has golf-ball sized hail once every 10 years?
    2008 Apr 18 01:28 PM | Link | Reply
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    Here are quotes from a large european exchange. Those are the rates you should use for comparison since it accounts for the majority of the solar market. US prices are generally slightly lower than the lowest euro rates

    www.eex.com/en/
    2008 Apr 19 05:47 PM | Link | Reply
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    Interesting carbon credit are only $24/ton. To put that in perspective a Prius saves about 1 ton/year. For the carbon credit trading system to work they should trade about 10 times higher. What a cutting edge speculative investment!
    2008 Apr 19 05:52 PM | Link | Reply
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    Interesting stuff. Renewable energy finance is an important topic these days. If you'd like to know more, the Renewable Energy Finance Forum-Wall Street, held June 18-19 in NYC, will feature an expert panel of more than speakers from across the industry. In fact, First Solar's CEO will be speaking about the future prospects of Photovoltaics.

    The conference brings together financiers, investors, and renewable energy project developers to network, strike deals, and to learn how money is made in the industry. In short, it is a "must attend" event for anyone involved in the renewable energy sector. For more information, visit www.REFFWallStreet.com.
    2008 Apr 24 04:07 PM | Link | Reply
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    any new thoughts on VNP.to
    2008 Jun 23 02:05 PM | Link | Reply
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    Nothing much has changed regarding the tellurium prices, hence not much change in my opinion of vnp.to I own shares mainly to offset risk of higher tellurium prices to FSLR. Announcements of new plants would be the best possible news for both FSLR and VNP. It would lead to higher te prices in the short run while also putting to rest speculation that FSLR can't procure enough te in the long run.
    2008 Aug 03 03:23 PM | Link | Reply