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Executives

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé - Chief Executive Officer and Director

François Villeroy de Galhau - Chief Operating Officer

Lars Machenil - Chief Financial Officer

Analysts

Jean-Francois Neuez - Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division

Delphine Lee - JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division

Jean-Pierre Lambert - Keefe, Bruyette, & Woods, Inc., Research Division

Jon Peace - Nomura Securities Co. Ltd., Research Division

Maxence Le Gouvello du Timat - Crédit Suisse AG, Research Division

Thibault Nardin - Morgan Stanley, Research Division

Andrew Lim - Espirito Santo Investment Bank, Research Division

Benoit Petrarque - Kepler Capital Markets, Research Division

Anke Reingen - RBC Capital Markets, LLC, Research Division

Flora Benhakoun - Deutsche Bank AG, Research Division

Sebastien Lemaire - Societe Generale Cross Asset Research

Pascal Decque - CA Cheuvreux, Research Division

Pierre Chedeville - ESN North America, Inc.

Pierre Chedeville - CM-CIC Securities, Research Division

BNP Paribas SA (OTCQX:BNPQY) Q2 2012 Earnings Call August 2, 2012 8:00 AM ET

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon, and welcome to the presentation of BNP Paribas Second Quarter 2012 Results. For your information, this conference is being recorded. Supporting slides are available on BNP Paribas Investor Relations website, www.invest.bnpparibas.com. [Operator Instructions] I would like now to hand the call over to Jean-Laurent Bonnafé, Chief Executive Officer. Sir, please go ahead.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

Thank you. Good afternoon. I'm here in Paris with 2 of CEOs, Philippe Bornedave and Francois Villeroy de Galhau, as well as with Lars Machenil, our CFO. The 4 of us will be pleased to take your questions shortly, after my introductory presentation.

I will not be commenting each single slide in the presentation, but I would just like to make a few introductory comments from the main feature of our quarterly results and then give you another view of the performance of our business lines.

As you will note, the second quarter of the year was characterized by difficult market conditions as worries on the Eurozone have emerged and market volatility increased. Despite this, BNP Paribas showed quite a resilient performance.

Confirmed first its profit generation capacity with EUR 1.8 billion of net income booked in the quarter, continued to grow its retail deposit base as shown by the 2.8% increase in our domestic market deposits and by even stronger figures in other countries.

It successfully further optimizing and adapting its cost base to the new environment, marking your 4% reduction compared to the second quarter 2011, and it maintained a strict risk management approach as shown by the cost of risk, which remained at the low level of 50 basis points compared to customer loans.

At the same time, we've been continuing to deliver on our adaptation plan, which is largely in advance considering what we have already achieved, 90% 6 months in advance as you can see from Slide 6.

We have been successful in implementing the plan swiftly while, at the same time, containing implementation costs. For example, in terms of losses on sales that we initially anticipated at EUR 800 million, we now expect to book less than half that amount, confirming once more the strong underlying quality of our assets.

This, in turn, translates into extremely high solvency ratios. The real news is that at the end of the second quarter, our fully loaded Basel III ratio already stood at 8.9%, almost matching our objective of 9% by year end, 6 months in advance and making BNP Paribas one of the best capitalized banks according to the Basel target metrics.

If you turn to Slide 12, you can see our first half results, which again proved the resilience of BNP Paribas performance in this challenging environment. If we focus on the evolution in our operating divisions, you can see that revenues contracted by just 5%, while cost control was confirmed. At the same time, cost of risk actually showed a nice improvement.

Overall, for the group, the semester closes with a net income of EUR 4.7 billion, which as shown by the following slide, Page 13, positions BNP Paribas amongst the banks with one of the highest profit generation capacity.

I would now like to look in more detail at the performance of the different businesses. Starting with Retail Banking and most specifically with domestic markets. As a reminder, this segment consists of 4 markets: France, Italy, Belgium, Luxembourg; and specialized activities, personal investors, Arval and leasing.

As you can see on Slide 15, business activity remains sustained especially in terms of deposit gathering, which grew at an average 2.8%, with an improvement in all markets.

We also continued to benefit from the significant synergies existing between networks as shown by our One Bank for Corporates initiatives, thanks to which the corporate clients of our domestic markets opened some 700 new accounts in the global network of BNP Paribas in the first 6 months of the year. Revenues were essentially stable as residuals in interest income was offset by weakness in financial fees.

Costs remained under control, decreasing by 1.2% at constant scope and contributing to a positive 1.3 jaws effect. In turn, this also led to an improvement in the cost/income ratio of our streamlined markets, as you can see in the bottom right of the slide. Cost of risk remains moderate, with a manageable rise in Italy, and hence, pretax income remains stable at a significant level.

Outside of those domestic markets, Euro-Mediterranean and BancWest have also shown dynamic activity and strong deposit gathering. Indeed, Europe-Med, Slide 19, delivered deposits up 14% and loans up 5%.

Let me single out Turkey, which enjoyed particularly strong volume growth leading to a 38% increase in revenues, while cost control helped reduced significantly the cost/income ratio from 90% to 68%.

BancWest, on Slide 20, saw very strong deposit gathering, which increased at the rate of 8.3%, while loans were up 3.3%, benefiting from a positive trend in corporate loans. The cost of risk confirmed a declining trend, which contributed to a near 10% increase in pretax income, excluding the benefit of the U.S. dollar appreciation. As you can see, BancWest's contribution to group's results is quite significant and back on an upward trend.

On Slide 21, Personal Finance continued to implement its adaptation plan on the mortgage front where outstandings continued to decrease, as well as costs. Further risk control meant that PF's good profit generation capacity was maintained despite an unfavorable environment.

A quick zoom on Investment Solutions, Slide 22 and 23. The first half Investment Solutions showed net asset inflows of EUR 8.5 billion, as the positive impact in Q1 was only partially offset by the negative impact in Q2. Wealth management was by far the most important contributor, with good inflows in the domestic markets and in Asia. This brought total assets under management to EUR 873 billion at the end of June, up 3.6% compared to year end 2011, although still below last year's levels.

Compared to Q2 last year, revenues are up 2.2% on the back of good performance from insurance and security services, which continued to grow, somewhat mitigated by Wealth & Asset Management given the overall lower level of assets under management. The contribution in terms of pretax income was stable at EUR 531 million, which shows the good overall resilience of the business.

Let us now turn to CIB, which, as you know, consists of Advisory, Capital Markets and Corporate Banking. Let's start with Corporate Banking, Slide 26, and let me just remind you that we are talking of a business comprising some 11,000 corporate and institutional clients, with a global reach and a commercial setup articulated with the retail banking. Also, remember that Corporate Banking is finalizing its deleveraging plan which reduce the credit portfolio, leading to a reduction of revenues in Q2. Even so, Corporate Banking maintained its strong position in origination, ranking first for among those syndicated loans in Europe at the end of June.

On the deposit front, we have set up a dedicated corporate deposit line to enhance the commercial effort, while our cash management has gained several large mandates in the quarter from corporate clients in Europe and Asia.

Now turning to Advisory and Capital Markets, Slide 25. Revenues were affected by low client demand against a backdrop of market crisis. In this difficult environment, we continued to manage the different businesses cautiously as shown, for example, by the low level of our VaR in the quarter. In particular, equity was hampered by low volumes due to reduced client demand. Rates and ForEx posted a good performance, but fixed income was impacted by the low level of primary bond issues. Notwithstanding these and despite the significant volumes contraction, we managed to retain our #1 spot for all bonds in Europe and #6 for all international issues.

Focusing briefly on CIB's cost at constant scope and exchange rates, excluding the adaptation cost, I want to underline that they were marked at 20% decrease, benefiting from the continuing staff reduction, which is proceeding according to plan. The cost/income ratio at 52.6% remains one of the best in the industry.

Let me wrap up CIB by mentioning that we booked some landmark transactions in our originated and distributed approach by successfully combining our strengths in specialized financing with those of our fixed income.

And before I conclude my introduction, I would like to give you a quick update on where we stand in terms of medium/long-term funding, balance sheet evolution and solvency.

Starting with Slide 28, you can see that our mid/long-term funding program already exceeded our EUR 20 billion program for 2012, having funded EUR 22 billion with an average maturity of close to 6 years and at an average price of 112 basis points above mid-swap.

If you turn to the following slide, you will see that we have maintained a significant surplus of stable funding, which stands at EUR 52 billion. In U.S. dollars, the surplus stands at $38 billion, while I remind you that we have fully achieved as early as April our deleveraging plan target of $55 billion.

Slide 30, Solvency. We have virtually reached our 9% common equity Tier 1 ratio on the Basel III. This, 6 months early. On the Basel 2.5, we stand at 10.9%. This by further strengthening our capital amongst others due to the scrip dividend, which I remind you, achieved a success rate of 72%.

To conclude, let me draw your attention to our net book value per share, which I'm proud to say continues to increase and now stands at close to EUR 60 as you can see on Slide 31.

So the messages I hope to have passed on to you are: that in the challenging environment of Q2, we showed good performances; that we have virtually achieved our adaptation plan, and that with a fully loaded Basel III ratio of 8.9%, we are today one of the best capitalized banks in the world; and third, that we continue to play an active role in financing the real economy and supporting our clients in their different needs.

I thank you very much for your kind attention and together with Philippe, Francois and Lars, we shall now be glad to take your questions.

Question-and-Answer Session

Operator

[Operator Instructions] We have a question from Lauren Juarres [ph] HSBC Bank.

Unknown Analyst

A couple of questions, please. What sort of revenue and cost growth do you expect in French retail for the rest of the year? And also, to what extent do you think repricing can offset the increase of the cost of funding? And can you provide the guidance for the net interest margin? Finally, it would be nice to have some more color on the cost of risk going forward. What sort of level do you expect for French retail, BNL and Personal Finance especially?

François Villeroy de Galhau

So Francois Villeroy speaking. For French retail, we expect for the months to come, the risk to remain more or less at the level we had. I would say the same global picture because you raised a question for Belgium and Italy. Regarding more specifically revenues and cost in French retail, we had a slight contraction of revenue in this second quarter due mainly to a strong decrease in financial fees. This trend in the quarters to come will depend on the evolution of financial markets. We could have this kind of evolution for some months, but depending again on the level of financial market. We will go on being very strict on cost control, not only in French retail but in all our domestic networks. And you saw that in all systematic networks, we had a strong positive jaws effect. We are confident that we will keep this trend for the rest of the year in our most important domestic markets.

Unknown Analyst

Yes. And for the net interest margin?

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

The net interest margin in...

Unknown Analyst

In French retail.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

In French retail?

Unknown Analyst

Do you expect the repricing basically to affect the increase in the cost of funding? Or what sort of decline do you see if any?

François Villeroy de Galhau

No, this repricing is taking place, and we explained it to our clients, be it household or corporate. There is no credit crunch or restriction of the volume of credit. Also, we see a decrease of demand in France and as in other domestic markets. But obviously, the price of the credit is increasing a bit due to the new regulation of Basel III. So it's clearly what we explained to our clients, no restriction on volume, but a slight increase on prices due to the new regulation. And this one is taking place. And you saw on Slide 16 that we have the positive evolution of net interest income in France. Our slight decrease of the old revenue is concentrated on financial fees.

Operator

The next question is from Jean-Francois Neuez, Goldman Sachs.

Jean-Francois Neuez - Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division

I have 3 quick questions, please. I noticed that you stopped increasing the liquidity buffers this quarter whilst they were progressing very, very fast in the previous quarters from last summer. Just wondered whether that meant -- should I read into this that you feel okay now where your liquidity ratios are and that we're more or less at a cruising speed here? Or do you intend to continue building up later but there was a pause in Q2? My second question is just out of curiosity, have you run the mark-to-market of the 40 bps of the EBA sovereign buffer as of today? And my final question is on the financing businesses, it looks as though the run rate of revenues looks to be less affected than maybe what I myself previously thought based on your guidance on the deleverage revenue run rate loss with the loan sales and so and so. Are you also running a bit ahead of expectations there? Because we get essentially underlying revenues of EUR 950 million also and it's actually -- it's still quite high as far I can see at least.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

Jean-Francois, from the liquidity buffer, yes, we are aware, it's very high. It's even probably too high. But we think that it's necessary to have that kind of high liquidity buffer in the period of instability and market, I would say, kind of panic sometimes and volatility. So we prefer to have too much rather than too little. But certainly, we don't need to have more than that. About the mark-to-market of the government bonds, we actually made the calculation at the end of June, and it's the equivalent of 40 basis points at this level. So it's coincidental, but it's the same figure as the EBA figure calculated last September. And about the loss of revenues coming from the deleveraging in the corporate banking, while we are more or less in line with what we had said indeed, so if you take the first half, if you look at the first half and you look at the difference with the first half of 2011, you've got a reduction of revenues that is equal to, let me -- which is equal to EUR 390 million exactly. And so it’s at half year, so it's the equivalent of EUR 800 million for the full year. And of course, as the deleveraging is still underway, the actual figure next year will be higher. You remember that we had said 1 point – well at least more than EUR 1 billion as a full year effect. So we are not far from that. Now if you add also some losses on the capital markets side, losses of revenues on the market side, which are also somewhat impacted by the reduction of the inventory. So overall, it will be a little more than EUR 1 billion like we had said on the full year full effect basis.

Operator

We have a question from Delphine Lee, JPMorgan.

Delphine Lee - JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division

I just have a few questions. First of all, just to come back on capital and your guidance of 8.9% end of June, so I understand your Basel III impact is 180, 190 basis points. And then you have to add on top the 40 basis points for the mark-to-market sovereign. So just on the improvement side, can you maybe just elaborate a little bit on the improvement, on what mitigates that. I understand there's something around leap year. Secondly, also on the loan, the losses on the disposals of loans in CIB. Just on the -- could we have maybe a number of how much has been done, what's left really on the delevering side? Because if you're only having EUR 400 million, if you achieved so far EUR 150 million of losses, I mean, it sounds like a very big number, which is less given what you still need to achieve, which is not much. And then maybe just lastly, on Italy. Can you maybe just elaborate a little bit on how you could improve a little bit funding as you are, in most of your geographies, in the medium term, given the very high loan-to-deposit ratio?

Lars Machenil

Delphine, Lars speaking. Maybe on your first question on the capital. Thanks for raising the question and allowing me to clarify it. If you go back to the presentations as we've done it so far, what we basically guided on is that in the transition from Basel 2.5 to III, we had a 40 basis points impact from the EBA and we had a 180 impact of the remainder of Basel, so 220 bps. And then we said that we have structured Klépierre, basically bringing us a relief of 30 basis points. So all-in-all, a total of 190. And as we said earlier, by chance, today, the impact of the sovereign stands at 40 so it's around 190. And you see, we are at 10.9 in Basel 2.5 and we're at 8.9 at Basel III. So we're basically in line with how we guided you over the previous quarters.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

About the losses in CIB because of the selling of some portfolios. We have said, while less than 400, if look closely at the slide, it's less than 400. So yes, we hope to be below that figure at the end, but we want to be conservative.

Delphine Lee - JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division

Okay, and on average, what kind of discount do you have? I mean, it looks quite small, but just to get an idea of what the EUR 150 million so far relates to.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

On average, it's 3% to 5%; or rather 3% to 4%, indeed. We had said 3% to 5% at the beginning. And indeed, in practice it's rather between 3% and 4%. And of course, in that figure, we have included the gain indeed, the capital gain we made by selling the reserve base lending business in Houston. So this is mitigating the cost of selling the portfolios, the plain selling of portfolios with a small discount, if you go into net.

Operator

The next question is from Jean-Pierre Lambert, KBW.

Jean-Pierre Lambert - Keefe, Bruyette, & Woods, Inc., Research Division

Three questions. The first one is if you could quantify the sectors, the adjustments from Basel 2.5 -- to Basel 2.5 to Basel III in the investment bank. You indicated the number roughly for the financing. But I was wondering what would be the number for this quarter. And the second question is since you are close to your target of 9%, what does it mean in terms of change for you in managing the bank? Are you thinking of adjusting the dividend? Are you thinking of expanding in some areas? Maybe if you can comment on that? Or maybe you're going to change your target to 9.5. And finally, if you look at the cost/income ratio in Belgium a few months ago, you pointed out that it could go down to 65%. Is this still your view and what kind of speed that would be achievable?

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

Jean-Pierre, can you repeat your first question? I missed it.

Jean-Pierre Lambert - Keefe, Bruyette, & Woods, Inc., Research Division

Yes, sorry. What is the impact of the adjustments, the deleveraging, in the investment bank in terms of revenues, the impact? Because this is mentioned in Slide 25, I think. You indicate the balance sheet deleveraging connection with the adjustment to Basel 2.5 and Basel III. So I was wondering if you could quantify the effect on the revenue.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

It's a few hundred millions, indeed. We had said that we were expecting most of the deleveraging cost, of course, to be borne by the corporate bank, of course. But as far as markets are concerned, it's more difficult because it's less mechanical than in the corporate bank. But you can take something like maybe EUR 300 million, EUR 400 million as the, what, ballpark figure.

Jean-Pierre Lambert - Keefe, Bruyette, & Woods, Inc., Research Division

On an annual basis, I suppose.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

An annual basis, yes, yes, of course, of course. About the commercial in Belgium, maybe François.

François Villeroy de Galhau

Yes, François speaking. If you go Page 51, about the figures in Belgium, you have the new cost income levels. I will explain by new, which is as you can see in the first half of this year, 71.9%, compared with 74% last year. So we already had a decrease of more than 2 points of the cost income ratio. If we go to the absolute level, because you mentioned the objective of 65%, there is an important difference between the time where we announced this objective and the present level we can see, which is unfortunately for all the Belgium banks, introduction of a strong deposit and systemic tax by the Belgian government, which is more or less 4 points of cost income, a bit more. So if we have to look at the absolute level, we should take into account this new base of about 4 points of cost income. But if you look at the evolution and there’s a trend, our objective of 65 was consistent with the diminution of more than 5 months of our cost income, and we are underway on this road. We saw already a diminution of 2 points in this year. Is that your question?

Jean-Pierre Lambert - Keefe, Bruyette, & Woods, Inc., Research Division

Yes. I'm quite interested if you could elaborate on the impact of this systemic tax or deposit tax in Belgium. How much is it doing to cost? And…

François Villeroy de Galhau

As I said it's more or less an effect of 4 points on the cost income.

Jean-Pierre Lambert - Keefe, Bruyette, & Woods, Inc., Research Division

To be booked in a particular quarter or over time?

François Villeroy de Galhau

No, no. It's -- you call it in each quarter. We now have among -- it's among our expenditures each quarter.

Jean-Pierre Lambert - Keefe, Bruyette, & Woods, Inc., Research Division

It is already there, okay.

François Villeroy de Galhau

Yes, it is there. And it is already in the base because we re-based the exercise to 02 of '11. The absolute level are not comparable with the objective you have in mind.

Operator

The next question is from Jon Peace, Nomura.

Jon Peace - Nomura Securities Co. Ltd., Research Division

Two questions, please. The first one is on the cost of risk, which I think was very good this quarter. But as you look forward, where do you think that group 50 basis points might go to, given the weak economic backdrop in Europe, and which divisions do you see the upward pressure? And then the second question is I think you made some comments this morning about your ROE outlook and achieving a figure of 10%. And I just wondered if you could clarify what you're thinking was there. Is that a short-term observation on the market; and how you think still about the longer-term ROE?

Lars Machenil

On the cost of risk, I think as we've said the current stability is the result of some businesses achieving a decrease in the cost of risk, as you have seen, and likewise for personal finance and other being more on the somewhat upward trend, especially Italy, BNL. We think that while viewed from now and for the next few months, we don't see why the current situation would not more or less be, well, the same or stabilized or will be the same way. Because the underlying trends at work are going to remain the same. Now probably it's too early to speak about the cost of risk of 2013 because, I mean, what can happen between now and the end of the year, I know it can be very different depending on different scenarios. So I think it's too -- it would be too ambitious to provide you with an outlook of the cost of risk for more than the next 6 months. On the return to capital.

François Villeroy de Galhau

Yes, it was just to mention that under the current environment, it's difficult to get 10% return. This was just to point out the situation for anything that might be either mid- or long-term target, we haven't said anything. The only point is that if you are looking at the financing industry, the banking systems of all average retails are fairly low to compare to, I would say, other type of industry. So in the mid/long-term some things should be rebalanced also. This is the point. But for the time being, 10% is very aggressive.

Operator

The next question is from Maxence Le Gouvello, Credit Suisse.

Maxence Le Gouvello du Timat - Crédit Suisse AG, Research Division

My first question will be back on the BNL because Delphine asked you to give us an update on the in-trouble integrated funding on BNL. You have been able to increase slightly the deposit and to reduce the loans, sorry. Just want to be sure, have you been able to sell more bonds into the network? Or are we still standing with an integrated funding in the rounds of EUR 15 billion to EUR 17 billion? The second point is can you give us what is the residual exposure on your Ukrainian book? And the third question is, I'm little bit surprised by the pickup of the revenues in the cost of the activities, especially with the rates falling. Is there specific items?

Lars Machenil

Sorry, could you repeat the last question?

Maxence Le Gouvello du Timat - Crédit Suisse AG, Research Division

On the custody...

Lars Machenil

Yes, the securities are received, okay.

Maxence Le Gouvello du Timat - Crédit Suisse AG, Research Division

Yes, why the revenues are picking up in such a low interest rate environment.

Lars Machenil

Well, on this set of question, you know that the second quarter, there is a seasonality in favor of the Securities Services business. If you compare with the first quarter, this is why we always compare with the second quarter of the previous year. And so if you compare quarter-on-quarter, there is a good seasonality because the second quarter is the year of the dividend payments and the annual general meeting. So it's a period where Securities Services have a lot of work, and so they are billing a lot. And year-over-year the increase is really due to the development of the volumes. I mean, the business is developing pretty fast, both in new grounds and in Asia and even to some extent in Brazil. And even in Europe, we are gaining market share because more and more banks or institutional investors are subcontracting that business because the size is of the essence for that business. And we are able to provide our customers with solutions that are cheaper than what they are doing by themselves. So this is really a growth area for the group. And now moving up to maybe your first question about the BNL spending by BNP Paribas. You know that in the -- while in the past, until recently for optimization purpose, we had a funding policy that was -- well, that used to be centralized and then redistributed towards the different entities. This -- the evolution of the regulation and the new liquidity ratio that are looming have triggered a change in this funding policy. And so indeed, we are adapting the way we are working. And in this respect, of course it's progressive but we have progressively relocalized the funding policy. And especially as far as BNL is concerned, we've been able to reduce the funding of BNL by the group from almost EUR 30 billion to EUR 18 billion at the end of June 2012. This is going to continue through ongoing securitizations, through local retail bond issuances during all periods the BNL was issuing or selling BNP Paribas bonds to its local Italian selling customer services. And so now we are resuming the issuance under the name of BNL, so it's relocalized personal loans, and also through an overall monitoring of the loan cost/income ratio. So we expect this figure to keep going down progressively.

Maxence Le Gouvello du Timat - Crédit Suisse AG, Research Division

Ukraine?

Lars Machenil

About the Ukraine. I mean, about the Ukraine, you got some figures on Slide 56.

Maxence Le Gouvello du Timat - Crédit Suisse AG, Research Division

Sorry, I missed them.

Lars Machenil

No, no. It's about Ukraine are representing now 9% of the total distribution of the total outstanding loans of the Europe and Mediterranean division, so 9% of EUR 23 billion so it's the equivalent of EUR 2 billion. So it's now relatively small. And most important is that we have renewed the very -- the nature of those loans. So we have not -- less and less now mortgage loans. And we are replacing them more and more with small short-term consumer loans to our insignia, denominated insignia, while a significant part of our previous mortgage loans were denominated in half currencies and that created the risk. So this is completely stopped now. So we are lending short-term in revenue and also we are developing the corporate lending to subsidiaries of international corporate clients that are developing their business in the Ukraine. So it's a much less risky business that is being developed progressively.

Operator

The next question is from Thibault Nardin, Morgan Stanley.

Thibault Nardin - Morgan Stanley, Research Division

So I've got 3 quick questions. The first one is on Belgium. I think you've got your deposit rates on the savings deposits, so I would like to know if there will be a margin uptick in your Belgium business in the next few quarters. So only maybe just could you explain what the normalized run rate in the corporate center because again it is relatively lower than what you guided for during the last quarter. I mean, underlying to that to negative EUR 100 million, compared to a flat guidance? And finally, just to explain quickly as well the loss -- the EUR 90 million sovereign losses that you booked in your corporate center. Because looking at your sovereign book portfolio, it does not decrease massively. If anything, it decreased momentarily in the French and German parts where, I would guess, you would have made gains in there.

François Villeroy de Galhau

So Thibault, regarding Belgium and the interest rate for deposits, we reduced it, as a matter of fact, from the April 1, about 25 basis points on the main savings account. And we were, more or less, followed by the market, and it was in line with the general evolution of interest rates. We didn't see any significant move in volume and in market shares so it has been a successful move. Did I answer your question?

Thibault Nardin - Morgan Stanley, Research Division

In order to see how much of the margin uptick is booked into this quarter and how much more are we going to see when it's going to be updated for the quarter?

François Villeroy de Galhau

So it was from April 1. So you can consider that in the result of the second quarter, you had a third quarter.

Lars Machenil

I think there were 2 further questions. So if I take the one on corporate centers so a couple of things. On corporate center, we indeed last time we guided to 0, which was around 0. So that means it can be a bit above; it can be a bit below. And there's basically a slew of little things which are negative, which bring it a bit down. But I think there is one other important element and -- that I need to guide you on, which is an element which is there and which might stay for a couple of quarters, and that has to do with the LTRO. I'll remind you that we took on board the LTRO from -- for Prudential stands. And that's why you also see it in our cash balance sheet. We've identified it as short term. We don't consider it as long term. We took it out of, let's say, Prudential reasons, which basically means that it puts this product in competition with other repos and basically makes it more expensive, right? I mean, the LTRO is more expensive than you would have a typical repo. And that additional cost that comes out of this Prudential stands, at this stage, we have booked it in corporate center. And it represents what for this quarter EUR 55 million. And so this was not into the guidance of 0, so you should take into account as long we have the LTRO that there will be something of cost, which will be into the corporate center.

Thibault Nardin - Morgan Stanley, Research Division

Okay, is it on a quarterly basis? Or...

Lars Machenil

Yes. The figure I mentioned is quarterly basis.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

And about the sovereign bond sales, the reason of your question is that last time we gave the snapshot at the end of April, and so you don't see much difference between April and June. But indeed, we had sold a set number of sovereign bonds in April. And this is why because that's somewhat in the second quarter.

Thibault Nardin - Morgan Stanley, Research Division

Okay. And you didn't book any gains on your sale of German and French bonds? Or is the net number is the EUR 90 million?

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

EUR 90 million is the net.

Operator

The next question is from Andrew Lim, Execution Noble.

Andrew Lim - Espirito Santo Investment Bank, Research Division

Got a few questions, please. Just coming back to the EUR 18 billion funding cap at BNL. Hopefully, you've achieved in a few securitizations but I just wanted to see if whether those assets, whether they would still remain denominated in euros if there was a theoretical euro breakup scenario or whether they would be devalued into, say Italian lira? Secondly, just coming back to Jean-Pierre's question about your capital adequacy. Obviously, it's very strong now and comfortably ahead of your target. What does that imply in terms of your strategy going forward with regards to dividends or growth or special return on capital? And then thirdly, I think you’ve made some comments before as to the impact of the trade and book review by the Basel committee on your own market risk-weighted assets. Would you be able to comment on that again? Maybe you’ve got some new findings that you'd like to disclose.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

Yes, on the trading, I think you make reference to some of the documents that came out from Basel but this is something which will take time. It is not something we anticipate to happen. It's a process which we understand will take years. So there is basically nothing new to say on that front.

Lars Machenil

Well, we are going to answer to the first question that is a kind of a science fiction question. And maybe about the structure of policy on CapEx rule. I mean, we -- we think it's very important to have put Basel III behind us in terms of capital requirements. I think that, and you see that a lot of us -- banks are still struggling to get there and are going to be either to dilute their shareholders massively or to be obliged to shrink their risk-weighted assets significantly, and hence to weigh on their business. And for now, as far as we are concerned, we are going to able to work for our clients again only instead of working for the supervisors. So we are going to focus on our clients. And on the midterm, kind of back to normal if you want. So I think it's important.

Operator

The next question is from Benoit Petrarque, Kepler.

Benoit Petrarque - Kepler Capital Markets, Research Division

The first question is on the risk-weighted assets. I think it's up just EUR 2 billion this quarter, but we have seen a EUR 7 billion decrease for risk-weighted assets on CIB in Q2, so there's probably an increase of EUR 9 billion somewhere else. And I just wanted you to comment a little bit on where that happened. I saw some moves in the French retail. It was down at French retail, probably up in the U.S. So do we see some…

Lars Machenil

It's a pure ForEx effect. I mean, the dollar went up. That's only the ForEx effect.

Benoit Petrarque - Kepler Capital Markets, Research Division

So there's no -- into that is no risk migration in the models, nothing like this?

Lars Machenil

No, no.

Benoit Petrarque - Kepler Capital Markets, Research Division

Okay. And then to come back on the Personal Finance division, yes cost of risk is down year-on-year, but it's up 20 bps quarter-on-quarter. And just wanted to know the -- what do you see or what do you expect on the short term?

Lars Machenil

On Personal Finance, we have said in the slide that the figure of the first quarter was somewhat lowered by one-off write-back. It's written on Slide 11, bottom right. So if you look at the trend, you should kind of adjust the figure of the first quarter because it's abnormally low. And the second quarter figure is more in the trend. So it's a downward trend but I'll say going down slowly, but steadily.

Benoit Petrarque - Kepler Capital Markets, Research Division

So no deterioration in asset quality on the Personal Finance are expected?

Lars Machenil

No. The future, I mean, if there’s strong recession there. But in the current situation, in the different countries where we operate, things are quite okay and the cost of risk is moving slowly down.

Benoit Petrarque - Kepler Capital Markets, Research Division

And then just final question on the Basel III impact. It seems you are now guiding for 160 bps. If I exclude the 40 bps mark-to-market, you are guiding for 180 so it's just a small decrease of 20 bps. Where have you seen the decrease mainly, just to understand where it comes from and whether if we could expect potentially a reversal on some of those items in the coming quarters or that's -- the 160 looks really clear for some quarters?

Lars Machenil

Allow me to read it once again. If you picture yourself again, the flow that we've presented, we indeed talked about 40 and we talked about 180. But you have to take the 2. So when we said -- when we talked about 180, that was the remaining impact of going into Basel III after we had taken into account the impact of the sovereigns, which are no longer filtered. And at that time, we thought that the EBA was a good guidance so we took 40. So you should always have read it as 40 plus 180. And so by chance and I hope -- it's a misfortune maybe but by chance, the reality, as we look at it today, for the sovereigns defined under EBA, it's 40 again. So we’re still at the same thing. So 40 plus 180 as I said is 220. But we also did Klépierre which basically brought relief for 30. So that is basically the 190 total impact, which if you subtract it from our Basel 2.5, you arrive closely to the 8.9 that we guided on.

Operator

The next question is Anke Reingen, RBC.

Anke Reingen - RBC Capital Markets, LLC, Research Division

I have 3 questions, please. The first one is coming back on the capital deleveraging. Now as you've almost achieved your risk-weighted assets reduction target, I was just wondering what your view is on the balance sheet given you also show us the deleverage ratio so should we assumed the balance sheet could continue -- could potentially grow again or is balance sheet or -- balance sheet reduction continues to be on your agenda? And then secondly, on the CIB division and the sort of like jaws. You give us the adjusted cost development for FX, down 10% first half/ first half. But I was wondering if you could give the similar on the revenue side? And then also, this year cost base came down quite a lot in CIB in Q2. And I was wondering the outlook for the rest of the year, would there be more of a reduction because of benefits of restructuring? Or is it very much a function of revenues from here?

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

On your second question, Anke, all the benefits of the first savings due to the adaptation plan in CIB, are not yet seen. We are in the process. I would say that on the -- our adaptation plan on the cost side is there only for 70% or something like that so we still have 30% to flow in. And so probably we will see the full effect only next year after -- there will be further improvements in the next few quarters, and the full effect will be seen in 2013. So there is still some improvement to come. The ForEx effect on the revenues in CIB, we are looking at the moment. On your first question about the balance sheet, we -- well, you have seen we have put a slide with our leverage ratio somewhere in the appendices. And you have seen probably that we are now at 20x. It’s toward the end, I think. Inside 40. It looks like 40, sorry. Yes, it’s inside 40. So we are 20x. According to the way the U.S. are calculating it, meaning not taking the derivatives into account, and also adjusted for intangible assets so the U.S. way. We think that with the end of the deleveraging, with the end of the adaptation plan, that is going to come in the next few quarters -- the next 2 quarters, probably we'll be below 20 by the end of the year, probably. And then it's okay. I mean, if we are 19-some senior times, you know the U.S. banks are in the region of 15 times. But as you know, the way they are working is completely different and they are selling, they're conforming mortgages to Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac and they are also selling their good consumer credits and securitizing them and selling them. And the big corporates are not borrowing money from them at all, directly funding themselves through the market. So we are, structurally, we are going to remain slightly over or significantly over the U.S. leverage but that's below 20. We are quite well. And you know that the Basel III regulation is requesting a maximum of 33x, but 33x after having taken into account the off-balance sheet commitments and the credit lines and the liquidity lines, and so on. That part is smaller in Europe compared with the U.S. So as far as we are concerned, while being at 20x for the balance sheet part it's going to be -- we're going to be much, much below 30x in total. So we are going to be happy with that and we are going to stop focusing really on the size of the balance sheet. It's not going to become an issue or to be an issue anymore.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

Yes, and the answer, in the meantime, for your -- at constant parameter unchanged, the evolution is minus 27% instead of the minus 24%.

Anke Reingen - RBC Capital Markets, LLC, Research Division

Okay. Just coming back on the leverage answer, did I understand you correctly, your 20x would be under Basel III terms, including the off-balance sheet, still below the 33x?

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

Much, much below. Much, much below.

Operator

The next question is from Flora Benhakoun, Deutsche Bank Equities.

Flora Benhakoun - Deutsche Bank AG, Research Division

My question is actually on sovereign debt holding because I saw some comments this morning, which I think you made during your press conference, that apparently you intend to reduce your holdings of foreign debt and limit them to around EUR 10 billion max by country. So I was just wondering, because obviously you are above these levels in your domestic countries, so I was just wondering whether that means that you are going to keep up with the sale of sovereign debt and whether this could maybe at least partially offset the lower guidance that you're giving on deleveraging cost since you will potentially record some more losses on the sale of sovereign debt. And I was also wondering whether that will have a consequence on your liquidity ratios.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

No, you know, we are almost there. If you look at the figures on Page 44, you see that as for France, we stand at EUR 10.1 billion. So it's not very far from EUR 10 billion. Italy, EUR 11.5 billion. It's not very distant either. And the most the figures is Belgium is EUR 16.3 billion. But if you look at the last column on the right, you see that the group share is only 12x -- EUR 12 billion, sorry, EUR 12.2 billion. And so well -- and on top of that, on the Belgium side, the Belgium portfolio is shorter. I mean, the maturities is lower compared with the 2 others. So we consider that the bulk -- while the bulk of the effort is done now, and then we'll have the natural redemptions that are going to come. It's going to be enough not to replace the natural redemptions to get there. So we are not expecting any significant move now and normally shouldn't be a lot of additional costs on that front.

Flora Benhakoun - Deutsche Bank AG, Research Division

Okay, that's very clear. And so therefore you confirm the statement, right, that you're going to limit approximately to EUR 10 billion of sovereign debt by country?

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

It's not -- it's a kind of a -- it's more a guideline than a limit.

Operator

The next question is from Sebastien Lemaire, Societe Generale.

Sebastien Lemaire - Societe Generale Cross Asset Research

I was just wondering if you could disclose your non-sovereign credit exposures in Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland, as well as the related intra-group liquidity lines to fund your various businesses in those countries.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

Yes, well, we -- as far as Ireland -- and by the way Greece [indiscernible]. And in the countries, currently a rescue plan by the -- see we have different precise detailed figures in the offshore interim financial statements. So I suggest you refer to the consolidated financial statement that has been posted this morning. And you will find all the details for those countries for sovereigns -- for sovereigns, okay. And now as far as non-sovereigns are concerned, we -- well, if we take Ireland and Portugal, we have very limited exposures. I think this is Greece. Let's start with Greece then. Greece, we are giving the figures on Slide 36. So if you exclude companies that -- well, the shipping companies that are some Greece-related interest but that are not dependent on the economic situation of Greece, our exposure of -- on the non-sovereign Greek clients is EUR 1.1 billion, of which EUR 700 million is for corporates and EUR 400 million for individual or mostly individuals. We showed the Personal Finance and Wealth Management weaknesses. And so this is very small. The figures for Portugal -- and the figures for Portugal, are very small as well. So we have figures in the region of EUR 3 billion altogether as far as corporates are concerned. And I think that is around the same magnitude for the Personal Finance business plus a few other businesses. Then on Ireland, we have extremely small figures. I think we -- it's not very significant. And then we come to bigger countries. As far as Spain is concerned -- well, as far as Spain is concerned, almost half of our exposure is on large Spanish corporates and institutions with international activities, which offer a very satisfactory risk profile. So we -- I mean, we don't see that kind of exposure as being really bearing a lot of risk. And as far as Personal Finance is concerned, we have 2 businesses. We have consumer finance business. And those figures are reported also in the financial stability board report. And we have the consumer finance business and we have a joint venture we show from there in residential mortgages. The consumer finance doesn't show any deterioration at the moment. The total amount is something like EUR 6 billion. Well, EUR 6 billion and we don't have any -- we don't see any deterioration in the consumer profile. And this is due to the fact that -- remember that we have some increase in cost of risk in that business in 2007. And at that time, we strengthened the scoring for rules, going less profile. And so now we hold the whole existing portfolio. And it has been originated within these new guidelines and is of good quality. And in residential mortgages, the situation is quite satisfactory with a limited deterioration of the portfolio, but nothing really worrying. So this is now in Italy, while you know that -- well, I’ve already answered a few minutes ago about the P&L standing by the group that has been progressively reduced from EUR 29 billion to EUR 18 billion, and that should continue to move down. And our credit exposure in BNL amounts to EUR 70 billion, EUR 32 billion in private individuals and EUR 38 billion on corporate. There is a slide on page -- what, the detail is somewhere in the presentation, in the appendices.

Sebastien Lemaire - Societe Generale Cross Asset Research

And outside BNL within Italy, are there -- I mean I get that there are some consumer loans. Is that right?

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

Yes, in domestic. We've got in domestic as well. It's around EUR 10 billion amount, very good quality, extremely profitable and no problem.

Sebastien Lemaire - Societe Generale Cross Asset Research

Okay. And is it fair to say that the intra-group liquidity lines to Spain is close to EUR 20 billion? And that to Italy, if we take all your businesses in Italy, is closer to EUR 40 billion?

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

For Spain, I would not -- force such a figure, I don't think so. For Spain, we don't have retail networks in Spain. And our exposure – well, let me look at it. The large part of the – well, yes, indeed a large part of our risk exposure on Spanish clients is made out of -- outside Spain to Spanish clients as well in Latin America or things like that or through group branches. And the subsidiaries I have mentioned, are funded through securitizations to a large part and some local resources as well. So the overall funding gap of Spanish affiliates amounts to less than EUR 7 billion, I would say. The main elements being the funding, the core funding, our share of the funding or the UCI, our joint venture with Santander.

Sebastien Lemaire - Societe Generale Cross Asset Research

Okay, it's very clear on Spain. And on Italy, sorry?

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

Italy, to the EUR 18 billion I have mentioned, while you should add in-domestic, yes, it's -- and also less in-domestic, but also partly funded through securitizations. So while the figure must be somewhere -- it's probably in the mid 20s, 25, or something like that. If you add both...

Operator

The next question is from Pascal Deqcue, Cheuvreux.

Pascal Decque - CA Cheuvreux, Research Division

I have a few follow-ups on the previous question, if I may. Regarding the funding of Italy, I'm sorry to be back on this again, but how much -- what is the size of -- the amount of the bonds sold to retail clients in BNL at the moment? And to which amounts do you plan going in the future? The second question is on the common equity Tier 1. Once you have achieved the 9% threshold,; that means that all the future earnings plus dividends are going to inflate the number. Then to which level are you call it a stop? And does it change your previous scenario of a possible dividend policy with payments in share for 2012 at least? And the last question; is it possible to have the split in Q2 between the gains you made on the reserve base lending asset sale and the losses you booked on the other asset sales in the CIB deleveraging process?

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

On the last question, we can't confirm. Sorry, but we committed not to disclose the price. The buyer asked the price not to be disclosed. So we can't disclose it indirectly either. And on the question about the point, the Tier 1. I have answered already to that question. I think -- well, capitalization is not going to be a concern anymore. So we are going to be back in the normal life and not working just to build up a certain required level of capital. And this is going to give us much more flexibility than our competitors. And this is extremely important in the years to come. So flexibility in different areas. And that's it. And on the funding of Italy, I think we have answered already to all those questions.

Pascal Decque - CA Cheuvreux, Research Division

I was just wondering, which amount you are thinking you can arrive within the retail network of BNL by selling bonds? And the other question was we can forget then the 20 bps you were mentioning in the slide in Q1 about the dividend payment in share?

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

The dividend payment in share is clearly not going to be a must to get to 9%, most probably. So as I said, it's an additional flexibility. And we've see if it’s addition that we can at the end of the year [ph]. Well, about Italy, I think we don't want to give precise targets. We only say that we intend to keep reducing the funding from the mother company, given that the regulation imposes that we have to build 100% liquidity coverage ratio for BNL also. I mean, each subsidiary will have to comply with liquidity ratios on its own. So now we have to relocalize the funding. And this is what we are going to do.

Operator

[Operator Instructions] We have a question from Pierre Chedeville, CM-CIC.

Pierre Chedeville - ESN North America, Inc.

Just 2 quick questions. First question, I have noticed that when I look at your medium- and long-term refinancing, the average maturity is 5.7 compared to 6.7 with Soc Gen and 7.7 with Credit Agricole. Does it mean that your financial strength gives you the opportunity to be a little bit more aggressive regarding term formation? And where's a future competitive advantage in terms of profitability? That's my first question. My second question is what did you use as cost of equity in your impairment test on BNL? Because 6 years after the acquisition of this subsidiary, we must recognize that the profitability remains quite significantly below, I would say, 6%, 8%, which is certainly below the cost of equity and wouldn't be judicious to make an impairment on the residue of goodwill – on the goodwill on BNL. And my last question would be, as you know, there has been, I would say, some affair with UFC-Que choisir regarding some beneficiary class action on some contracts, selective contracts on personal loans and mortgage loans. What is your view on this legal case, please?

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

I'll start with the last one.

François Villeroy de Galhau

I’ll take on the last one.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

Okay, François.

François Villeroy de Galhau

So if we begin with the last one. So we took note of the decision by the so-called Conseil d'Etat regarding the tax regime between ‘94 and 2007. Our understanding is twofold. First, that what UFC-Que choisir said as comments regarding his decision is not adequate and that it is some kind of over-interpretation of the decision by the Conseil d'Etat. It doesn't create, and this is very important to stress, individual rights from clients to say we have a right on such-or-such participation. This is the first consideration. The second is that we are studying very precisely what are the exact implications of the Conseil d'Etat. But at this stage, our interpretation is that all the setup we had with our clients is in line with what is implied by the decision of the Conseil d'Etat. We studied very precisely with Cardif, but we don't expect significant effects of this decision, what concerns our clients. Did I answer your question?

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

Maybe not sure entirely if I understood the first question and the second question. But on the first one, indeed, what -- let me remind you that given the long term that we attract, basically, as we said, we attract at a group level to basically use it to fund several of our activities. And to that extent, basically booked the pricing and the way we choose to do the funding is reflected in the overall tenure that we have.

Pierre Chedeville - ESN North America, Inc.

No, maybe my -- I was like [indiscernible].

Lars Machenil

I think I understood the question. You were surprised by the fact that our average metric is lower than the maturity of issuing of Soc Gen and Credit Agricole new issues for the same period.

Pierre Chedeville - CM-CIC Securities, Research Division

I'm not surprised. I was just wondering if it's not the proof of the competitive advantage or something like that.

Lars Machenil

Maybe, maybe. I mean, in any case - I mean, the maturities are longer than in the past because of the regulation. And indeed, we, in any case, all those maturities are much longer than what we need in reality. I mean, of all of us, probably the best maturity at origination of our loans is in the region of rather 4 years or something like that, rather than 6 or 7 years. If we borrow that long maturities, it's because we have to comply with the new regulation again that is looming. And in the future, on less stable funding ratio, that is imposing some kind of results-getting on banks with a request that banks borrow longer maturities at what they lend. And then it depends on the situation of each of the banks at the beginning. The rebalancing, if you want, or the years moving from some transformation into some results-getting, the magnitude of the effort depends on the starting point. And while I don't know about the others, as far as we are concerned, I mean, we tend to issue, on average, in that kind of 5 to 6 years maturities, and we'll stick to that. It’s of course an average. You have to bear in mind that it's an average between 10 years issues and 2 years so it’s an average.

Jean-Laurent Bonnafé

The goodwill?

Lars Machenil

Goodwill, well, the goodwill -- the current -- it's true that the current return on equity of BNL is not extremely good. But when you make -- well, for the impairment test, as you know, we do that once a year, at the end of the year except when there are losses or abuse indications of the impairment, which is not the case for BNL. And then when you make the impairment test, you look at what's going to be the -- you don't just look at the current achievements of the subsidiary but you look at the trend and at the outlook for profitability of a time. And clearly, at the moment, the return equity of BNL is hampered by 2 things. The first thing is that we are in a situation where the Italian economy is not good so we're at the low point of the cycle. And this entails some additional cost of risk compared with the normal level or some lower revenues compared with the normal level. So this has to be -- when you make the calculation, it has to be adjusted for that. And second, as you may recall, BNL is still in the standard approach so the equity that is consumed by BNL is somewhat affected by the fact that we have not yet been able to move into the AIRB approach. But we are now approaching to that. And normally, after all the test period and so on that have been imposed by the Italian – the Banca d’Italia, we should move into the AIRB approach next year, somewhere next year. So we are approaching the end of the tunnel to that respect. There's a lot of work but it has been done. And we are in the testing period, and we should come to the switchover to the standard approach somewhere next year.

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes the conference call of BNP Paribas' Second Quarter 2012 Results. Thank you for participation. You may now disconnect.

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