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  • Tuesday's Herbalife Reports Miss Major Points [View article]
    Hi Davey,

    Just to bring the record straight...

    You say, now, ...." ...None (statisticians) would say "statistics proves"...."

    Absolutely correct. In fact, it was YOU that said the studies PROVE and I, who corrected you....

    Davey =".... PMR has been proven in combination and in isolation as better than RCD for gross results"

    Reelken ="The best one can say is that studies SUGGEST that PMR may have more efficacy than RCD, but they prove nothing..."

    This is just a bush league mistake on your part. When people get so wrapped up trying to shoot down other people, they often end up shooting themselves in the foot.

    Your medical expertise will come in handy bandaging your foot.

    Since you have another foot.... I never said Executives are not aggressive.... I said that Execs don't engage in ad-hominem attacks. I said salespeople show this type of aggression. Also please note, your comment contains at least three more ad hominem attacks. Hmmmm.

    As Judge Judy says .... "When you tell the truth you don't need a good memory."

    So, once again... I'm stickin' with the 99.9999% that just aren't buying in to the hype.
    Apr 18 06:43 AM | Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Tuesday's Herbalife Reports Miss Major Points [View article]
    Hi Davey,

    You've been exposed. It's time to quit.

    The only people paying attention to you are trolls and your "providers".

    Does anyone think that an exec at a Fortune 15 Company would randomly come over to SA, and watch for posts on HLF, 24/7.

    You can "fool all the people some of the time.......". You time is up.
    Apr 18 06:31 AM | 1 Like Like |Link to Comment
  • Tuesday's Herbalife Reports Miss Major Points [View article]
    Hi Davey,

    I find it interesting that you didn't even exist on SA until about a month ago. You have over 500 comments and every post is in defense of Herbalife. With all that has come out in the last few months, I find it astonishing that you have been unable to find even one less than positive thing to say about HFL, or agree with anything that isn't indicative of a "Love affair " with HFL

    You entered SA around the same time as a number of other 100% pro-Herbalife commenters.

    I find it interesting to note that you and they only comment on Herbalife and are 100% positive on it and denounce any adverse info.

    I add this, because when read in conjunction with HFL's official release that they are trying to calm the markets, it tells much.

    On SA, there is a word for someone that comes and goes, whose only role is to hype (up/down) a particular stock. That word is TROLL.

    For a person that claims to have statistic's knowledge, along with medical knowledge and is an executive at a Fortune 15 company, I wonder why you're even in this discussion.

    I've worked with many Fortune 500 Companies over 40 years. Quite frankly, I've never met one executive that would make the type of repeated ad hominem attacks you make. They've learned better ways of communicating.

    On the other hand, I also have extensive experience with salesmen. They routinely exhibit this type of aggression when challenged.

    Now, one last, and then I'm done... I have authored many articles on SA and anyone is free to read and evaluate my expertise. In this regard, I enjoy one of the highest following to article ratios in SA.

    Furthermore, you can parse my 2000+ comments and you will discover that they cover many stocks and often discuss both sides of any thread. M

    By example, I have quite a few posts on HFL that are supportive of the company. If I see someone make an inappropriate comment or post "hype" I call them out on it. I've done that to both "shorts" and "longs".

    My record covers many years, is accessible to anyone that wants to see it, right here on SA.

    So, I'll leave you to make your sales pitch to someone else. I guess you'll just have to put me in the 99.9999% that just "ain't buyin' it."
    Apr 17 08:54 PM | 1 Like Like |Link to Comment
  • Tuesday's Herbalife Reports Miss Major Points [View article]
    Hi Davey,

    you are nobody until you can prove it.

    Anonymous self ingratiating comments don't count.

    Claim what you want, I'm not buying into the hype.
    Apr 17 05:00 PM | Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Tuesday's Herbalife Reports Miss Major Points [View article]
    Hi Davey,

    I'm ending this conversation.

    It is clear we're on two different skill levels.

    I'm a professional with extensive experience in analytics and statistics.

    You are a salesperson for a MLM company.

    I'll just join the 99.99999% of the public that doesn't buy-in to the hype.

    I wish you success in deriving your living from the rest.
    Apr 17 03:18 PM | 2 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Did Herbalife Executives Conspire To Commit Mail Fraud? [View article]
    Hi Christophe,

    You may "not be kidding" but you certainly don't have this right.

    You claimed unrestricted free speech in USA. That is in error, and I pointed it out to you.

    How does this translate into my being unhappy with freedom of speech? I offered no opinion on our freedom/limits other than to correct your erroneous post.

    Personally, I think the Constitution and SCOTUS has it just about right. I have small counter-opinions, but so does everyone.

    Your initial claim, plus this imagination of my comment brings into question the accuracy of your other points.
    Apr 17 11:25 AM | Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Tuesday's Herbalife Reports Miss Major Points [View article]
    Hi Davey,

    Your post exhibits several things...

    1) You don't understand anecdotal hierarchy. For instance, which is more credible... a self serving claim made contemporaneously by a person with a financial, emotional and psychological bias or a statement made by a person years earlier that was not tied to any argument or offered in any other sense than informative?

    2) You mis-interpret the "drop out" argument. Of course, the studies show the drop-out rate. However, they neglect to follow the weight gain/loss on the drop outs after they drop out. Those that don't understand the finer points of statistical studies say "so what", those that do understand, realize the implications this has on the ability to draw conclusion.

    This is critical because we must ask the question... Are we comparing relative success of the successes or relative success of the overall sample? Are we looking at the weight loss of everyone that starts the regimen or just those that complete it?

    The fact that these studies only looks at the successes is extremely limiting.

    3) The studies prove nothing. They simply present data. One needs to isolate relevant variables to prove anything, and this has not been done.

    For instance, we should all agree that results of any weight loss regimen are dependent upon the level of participant motivation. The studies do not differentiate motivation as a factor in weight loss. For instance... is PMR inherently superior or does it attract more highly motivated followers? Many more, but you get the point (I hope).

    4) The studies compare two different regimens and fail to include a control group for either. They also fail to monitor the day-to-day adherence. This makes it impossible to ascertain whether comparative results are inherent in PMR or a result of variance in PMR/RCD compliance.

    The best one can say is that studies SUGGEST that PMR may have more efficacy than RCD, but they prove nothing.

    I never questioned that PMR isn't an effective weight loss regimen. Every regimen is successful once you exclude the drop-outs. The issue I have, and it remains, is what is the effectiveness after the goal is reached.

    Weight control is a marathon. The race isn't over after the first mile.
    Apr 17 07:15 AM | 1 Like Like |Link to Comment
  • Tuesday's Herbalife Reports Miss Major Points [View article]
    Hi Davey,

    Problem is I have a bio on SA that confirms my credentials. You don't. So your statements are just more anecdotal evidence.

    If you truly have statistical training (mine is at the post-grad level) then you would recognize that providing anecdotal evidence to support anecdotal evidence is not acceptable argument.

    For instance, data analysis indicates that the confidence rate of RCD vs. PMR studies is only about 20%.

    Second, I never questioned that PMR does not work--- however, only in conjunction with other regimens and not as a stand alone. My point was, and continues, that a multi-faceted approach will work with any weight loss regimen. It is the multi-faceted part that works, not the individual components.

    Third, the drop out rate with PMR is as high as RCD, so your anecdote on that is not supported.

    Fourth, all the studies fail to track the drop-outs. Though the untrained eye might not see this as material, they would be wrong-headed. I can't explain the math to you, but suffice it to say that a study of successes is very different than a study of all outcomes.

    I am glad you do realize that there is no definitive study out there that supports Herbalife's claims. That, at least, gets us on the same wave-length in one aspect.
    Apr 16 08:45 PM | 1 Like Like |Link to Comment
  • Tuesday's Herbalife Reports Miss Major Points [View article]
    Hi Dan,

    Glad you are in the medical field. My training is in statistics, analytics and probabilities.

    Maybe anecdotal evidence is good enough for an untrained person, such as yourself, but in my field, it is discarded as not reliable.

    The studies I have seen, show that meal replacement strategies are effective, in the short term. They are marred with several problems...

    1) Their effectiveness is dependent upon integration with other techniques for healthy weight control and do not make it as a stand alone product. This is "anecdotally" confirmed by some of your compatriots that post how important their counseling is, and......

    2) They have limited success long term, and.....

    3) The drop-out rate during the initial weight loss period is high. This is statistically important, as the average weight loss per participant cannot be adequately measured, based primarily on the "survivors".

    I could give you the links to these studies, but since you believe what you believe, it's best you "Google" them up. Very easy to find.


    So, if you want to believe what you want to believe, that's fine with me. But, as Judge Judy would say..."Don't pee on my feet and tell me it's raining."

    If your posts contribute anything to my knowledge base, it is just re-affirmation that when a persons monetary interests lie in one direction, their ability to discern is inhibited.

    I wish you continued success with your clients, but maybe you should limit your exposure to those that are clamoring for something to hang their hats on. I for, one, chose to go with proven technique.
    Apr 16 08:05 PM | 2 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Tuesday's Herbalife Reports Miss Major Points [View article]
    hi Dan,

    You seem to have problems with facts.

    Anecdotal evidence, especially from biased sources do not represent facts.

    Unfortunately for you, every MD in the world would recommend diet and exercise over F1. Sorry to break the news to you.
    Apr 16 07:09 PM | 2 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Tuesday's Herbalife Reports Miss Major Points [View article]
    Hi Davey,

    Nice diatribe, but it is devoid of any factual information.

    What evidence do you have that indicates that Herbalife has, in fact, any significant long term success? If Herbalife makes it so easy to lose weight, then where is the proof? Do they guarantee weight loss?

    There are quite a few products like Hebalife for weight loss. Do you have any reliable data that indicates that Herbalife is more effective than any of these?

    The fact that if someone follows the regimen, they would lose weight, does not mean that it is successful. There are numerous regimens out there that, if followed, end up in permanent weight loss. But, the fact that obesity is climbing, shows that the weight-loss industry is not effective.

    Now, when it comes to providing factual proof, I'll remind you that anecdotal evidence just doesn't cut it. Please, show me some impartial, empirical, scientific study that can confirm your claims. Because, without evidence, it's just jabberwocky.
    Apr 16 05:04 PM | 4 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Tuesday's Herbalife Reports Miss Major Points [View article]
    Hi herbs,

    The FDA has not approved F1 for weight loss. The USDA does not recommend F1. The USDA recommends dietary supplements in certain instances. Please show me where they recommend any supplement that translates into taking, generically, anything like F1.

    Your "mental" point is will taken. That is exactly the problem with F1. It does not address the underlying root cause. In fact, it relies on the weakness in the over-weight person looking for the "magic elixir".

    People are overweight because they eat too much and exercise too little.. They need supplements because they eat the wrong foods. The answer is to eat the right foods and to exercise.

    I agree weight loss isn't that simple, but you offer no factual information about the success rate of F1 vs. any other offering. The fact that some people have lost weight means nothing. It is the effectiveness vs. any other program. If you make a claim that it is effective, then the onus is on you to prove it. So...what is the success rate? What percentage of F1 users experience long term weight loss that is in excess of any other type of regimen? Has anyone done a scientific study? If not, then why not?

    Now, to the last point, re-read my post for clarity. TSSPRY stated that after 6 months and reaching goal, F1 is discontinued. Well, then, what do they do, at that point? And if whatever they do is effective, and does not include F1, then why couldn't they simply have done that all along?

    So my point is simply.... the only proven, effective long term way to manage weight is proper diet and exercise. When one considers all the money spent on various weight loss regimens, and, as you state, the growing obesity, it is evidence of the failure of those methods.

    One last point ... the only positive recent data on obesity confirms that Michele Obama's initiative has reduced juvenile obesity...which is precisely proper food choices and exercise...

    If you truly want to help me with correct information, then I think it would be best if you actually gave me information, not opinion. Because, if you re-read your comment, you will see it has absolutely no factual information.
    Apr 16 04:42 PM | 5 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Tuesday's Herbalife Reports Miss Major Points [View article]
    Hi tsspry,

    The problem with products such as F1, is that after you've reached your goal, you still haven't adjusted your diet properly to maintain the weight loss. So you are likely to re-gain once you change your F1 regimen.

    Now, if you make the proper adjustments to a healthy diet and exercise, after six months, what stopped you from making the adjustment in the beginning?

    Perhaps the big question that remains unanswered is .... Why do we even need products like F1 in the first place? Healthy eating and daily exercise is the only proven method. Until and unless one makes this change, they are prisoners of some other, less healthy, system.
    Apr 16 11:36 AM | 9 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Tuesday's Herbalife Reports Miss Major Points [View article]
    Hi Dan,

    Hubris is one of the deadly sins. It is also one of the biggest reasons for investing failure.
    Apr 16 11:28 AM | 7 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Did Herbalife Executives Conspire To Commit Mail Fraud? [View article]
    Hi Christophe,

    You said....

    ..."Those outside the US might miss the fact that this country has the strongest "Freemdon of speech" rights in the world. Yes it is legal here to say anything you want, including calls for hatred, racism and maybe even murder and pedophilia"

    Are you kidding !!!!!

    Freedom of speech in this country does have limits. Here, like anywhere else, you can say whatever you want. That doesn't mean you won't end up in jail.

    Suggest you look up the laws of the USA regarding Criminal Threatening and Hate-Crimes. Just my way of trying to keep you out of jail.
    Apr 16 08:21 AM | 1 Like Like |Link to Comment
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