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  • Why Herbalife Observers Still Don't Get It; Herbalife Will Be Shut Down [View article]
    Hi David Thornton,

    Once again, vigilantism is not legal in the USA.

    I know it undermines your "guilty until proven innocent" dogma, but that's just the way it is.
    May 7 12:43 PM | 4 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Herbalife's Astonishing Response [View article]
    Hi AllIwantisheTruth,

    I would think most people understand that it's pretty easy to pierce the veil, and make HLF responsible for the actions of the distributors.

    The question is, and always has been, "is HLF criminally negligent" or are they just guilty of insufficient oversight?
    May 7 12:39 PM | Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Herbalife's Astonishing Response [View article]
    Hi Dave Ritchie,.

    Thanks, for all the fine research.

    Shame, it should apply. I guess that just makes HLF's case easier.
    May 7 12:36 PM | 3 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Debunking 'The Retail Question' When An MLM Is An ELM [View article]
    Hi CrimebustersNow,

    Gee, when I search the web trying to track down all your positive involvement in bringing scams to an end, it seems I keep on running across "Scam Busting" sites that list your operation as a scam.

    Some people even accuse you of asking targeted companies for payoffs if they want you to stop.

    Now, just as with HLF, I don't know if these are legitimate gripes or not. Just thought you should be aware of them, so you can allocate sufficient resources to de-bunk them.

    For no one really wants to see you be the brunt of allegations that may be false.
    May 7 11:38 AM | 2 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Why Herbalife Observers Still Don't Get It; Herbalife Will Be Shut Down [View article]
    Here's what I'm thinking of doing ...

    Start a business. Collect money from people looking for an opportunity to make big bucks.

    Illustrate to them how much money previous participants have made and charge them fees. Higher fees than most would consider reasonable, but, then again, the opportunity for gains is that much greater.

    When the participants start to lose money, tell them to just wait, it takes time to germinate big money making opportunities. Meanwhile, just send more money, you'll make even more when it "hits".

    Do everything I can on my part to make it look like there's a real chance for them to recover their losses.

    Lose more money.

    Do my best to keep the "enterprise" from stepping over to unlawful practices.

    Keep racking in fees, huge fees, while the participants bleed more money.

    Ultimately, when my promise to make them rich fails, just say, "Hey I did my best, you should have read the disclosures and you knew the risk."

    I think I'll call my business Pershing Square Capital Management... oops, that's already taken, I'll get back to you.
    May 7 11:30 AM | 4 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Why Herbalife Observers Still Don't Get It; Herbalife Will Be Shut Down [View article]
    Hi Gerald,

    I lost count of how many companies, in countless businesses, that have been closed down for illegal activities (not just Pyramids) and it just keeps rolling on. I can think of at least 100 companies more deserving of being shut down than HLF and no one talks about them.

    There will always be prey and predator. To think otherwise is foolish.

    In any event, what if HLF isn't closed down? Where's your hypothesis going then?
    May 7 11:17 AM | 4 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Why Herbalife Observers Still Don't Get It; Herbalife Will Be Shut Down [View article]
    HI Gerald,

    How about this...

    A business that systematically bilks millions of people out of their hard earned money. Over 90% of the people lose money, but those at the top.... the ones that get these people to join, are guaranteed to make a fortune.

    This business preys on all sorts of people, but targets the elderly with free gifts and other "perks" to get them to participate. They always lose more than they receive.

    This business attracts people looking to make a fast buck.

    This business has a history of criminal activity, but it stays, for the most part, within legal parameters.

    This business exists because it provides participants with a sense of well-being, while stripping them of their money.

    The business... casinos.
    May 7 08:56 AM | 7 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Why Herbalife Observers Still Don't Get It; Herbalife Will Be Shut Down [View article]
    Hi tsalvatore,

    Seems like what you are explaining exists in every business.
    May 7 08:28 AM | 3 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Why Herbalife Observers Still Don't Get It; Herbalife Will Be Shut Down [View article]
    Hi Gerald,

    I have nothing to do with HLF and am not a fan of MLM companies.

    That said, I have done considerable research, from the reading of these threads, much more than most. And here's where I stand.....

    The MLM framework has been loosely defined by the courts and the regulatory agencies. It would have been nice if the criteria were more strictly defined, and I suspect after this is all over, they will be. In the meantime, we take what's there.

    Given the existing framework, I have concluded that HLF seems to be within the MLM category and not the Pyramid category.

    I have also concluded that the MLMs are con men magnets. Without proper oversight ... well we all see what happens. Unless more evidence surfaces, I think HLF's oversight is insufficient, but they are not complicit in fraud.

    I readily acknowledge that it is possible for a legally structured enterprise to separate people from their money. This is ubiquitous amongst every type of business structure you can name.

    So, I regret those that have lost money in HLF, but, quite frankly, they represent but a grain of sand on the beach, in the world of people LEGALLY separated from their money.
    May 7 06:57 AM | 4 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Why Herbalife Observers Still Don't Get It; Herbalife Will Be Shut Down [View article]
    Hi Gerald,

    It's unfortunate that people are hurt by any misleading marketing.

    There are so many companies making exaggerated claims, it's impossible to list them. The only reason HLF is the "scam-de-jour" is because Ackman went short.

    Think of all the innocent "suckers" out there that also went short and have lost money. I wouldn't be surprised if these innocent people have lost almost as much money as the HLF victims, believing something that is yet unproven.

    Of course Ackman is safe, he's costing all his customers money while he gets his fees, regardless of outcome. Very unfortunate to see the man at the top make fees off of all the other people that trusted the opportunity he offered and ended up losing money.

    Wait !!! Isn't that what Ackman is fighting against.


    Since you asked....

    I am retired and write numerous articles for SA.

    Though I don't get paid for "clicks" posting comments, it just represents a reallocation of my time resources, as I put writing on hold, while I add content here.
    May 7 06:41 AM | 6 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Herbalife's Astonishing Response [View article]
    Hi CrimeBustersNow,

    Please provide a reference.

    MLM, as codified, is a legal marketing arrangement. Scams, in the vernacular, are unlawful marketing arrangements.

    According to any source I look at, that makes them closer to antonyms than synonyms.
    May 7 06:30 AM | 4 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Herbalife's Astonishing Response [View article]
    Hi Gerald,

    Glad to see you're clean, but you never answered my question.

    There are undoubtedly many, many "Joe's" out there that inadvertently own HLF.

    Several "shorts" on these threads said they will take great pleasure in seeing all the longs punished, because all the longs have ripped off people.

    My question remains, how exactly did these "Joe's" rip off people and what, exactly, did they do to be punished by the shorts?
    May 7 06:22 AM | 2 Likes Like |Link to Comment
  • Why Herbalife Observers Still Don't Get It; Herbalife Will Be Shut Down [View article]
    Hi macrotrader,

    Plus 1.
    May 6 09:07 PM | 1 Like Like |Link to Comment
  • Herbalife's Astonishing Response [View article]
    Hi Dave Ritchie,

    Think you should check out Rule 16 C.F.R. Part 437, are you suggesting this isn't operative?

    "The New Biz Op Rule requires a business opportunity seller to use a one-page form, titled “Disclosure of Important Information About Business Opportunity” (the “New Biz Op Disclosure Document”), which requires the disclosure of five items of information and possibly certain attachments. Id. at § 437.3. The five items relate to:

    (a) The seller’s identifying information, including its name, business address, telephone number, the name of the salesperson offering the business opportunity, and the date when the New Biz Op Disclosure Document is furnished to the prospective purchaser. Id. at § 437.3(a)(1).

    (b) Whether the seller makes an earnings claim. The seller is not obligated to make an earnings claim and can check the “no” box. However, if the seller does make an earnings claim, the seller must check the “yes” box and provide the prospective purchaser with a separate earnings claim statement titled “EARNINGS CLAIM STATEMENT REQUIRED BY LAW.” Id. at § 437.3(a)(2); see also Id. at § 437.4.

    (c) Whether the seller, any of its affiliates (including a parent or subsidiary) or prior businesses, or any of its key personnel (including seller's officers, directors, sales managers, or any individual who occupies a position or performs a function similar to an officer, director or sales manager of the seller) have been the subject of any civil or criminal “legal action” within the past 10 years that involved "misrepresentation, fraud, securities law violations, or unfair or deceptive practices, including violations of any FTC Rule.” Id. at § 437.3(a)(3).

    (d) The seller’s cancellation or refund policies, if any. Id. at § 437.3(a)(4).

    (e) A list of the 10 purchasers of the business opportunity closest to the prospective purchaser’s home or, in the alternative, a list of all purchasers during the last three years. The list must include only each prior purchaser’s name, state (not address) and telephone number. Id. at § 437.3(a)(5)."
    May 6 09:01 PM | 1 Like Like |Link to Comment
  • Why Herbalife Observers Still Don't Get It; Herbalife Will Be Shut Down [View article]
    Hi short celery,

    You just earned 1.

    Unfortunately, they're not for sale. If you can come up with 3999 original tag lines, you'll earn them.
    May 6 08:17 PM | 1 Like Like |Link to Comment
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