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The Eurogroup statement on Spain: "The loan will be scaled to provide an effective backstop...

  • Saturday, June 9, 2012, 2:44 PM ET
    The Eurogroup statement on Spain: "The loan will be scaled to provide an effective backstop covering for all possible capital requirements ... with an additional margin of safety up to €100B in total ... the Fund for Orderly Restructuring (FROB), acting as agent of the Spanish government, could receive the funds and channel them to the financial institutions concerned."
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  • This should provide a bit of risk-on mode through this week, leading us towards Greek elections on the 17th. Should make for another nice suckers rally until chaos returns after the 17th.
    9 Jun 2012, 02:51 PM Reply Like
  • What are "horizontal structural reforms"?
    9 Jun 2012, 03:30 PM Reply Like
  • That implies better internal controls within the Spanish banking sector. It suggests that some consolidation might be one way to achieve that, though I base that opinion on a BIS paper I read about a week ago. The downside in this is that the smaller banks may go away, and the Spanish banking system might start to model the U.S. banking system more. The big get bigger, the small get absorbed.
    9 Jun 2012, 04:06 PM Reply Like
  • One day risk-on mode then fizzles...
    9 Jun 2012, 05:04 PM Reply Like
  • I think the entire week, but if volumes are low we may see some movement on news. I think the week starting on the 18th should be the beginning of another downward move.
    9 Jun 2012, 05:09 PM Reply Like
  • I've been hearing about "suckers" since last September. So far, the "suckers" are winning handsomely.

    June 17th will prove to be a yawn and another disappointment for the perpetually gloomy.
    9 Jun 2012, 05:51 PM Reply Like
  • Lol. Perhaps. I am a sucker too! Yes, I am. I true sucker. LOL.
    9 Jun 2012, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • The true “suckers” are the ones spending more time being negative, rather than being positive and making a little money!

    I don’t think you fit that category Truffel! ...$$$
    9 Jun 2012, 06:15 PM Reply Like
  • It wasn't me making that assessment last September.
    9 Jun 2012, 06:54 PM Reply Like
  • My profit taking this year has been averaging about 20% so far. Perhaps if I was more aggressive that may have been higher, but I prefer to be more cautious.
    9 Jun 2012, 06:55 PM Reply Like
  • A Greece default is not the end of the world as long Spain and Italy are protected.

    Everyone has consistently underestimated the determination of the leadership of the Euro zone.
    9 Jun 2012, 07:03 PM Reply Like
  • 20% isn't to shabby!! Keep up that fight for greed and continue to profit!
    "Nice work"
    9 Jun 2012, 07:28 PM Reply Like
  • The "talking bobble heads" on CNBC sure think so!!...Lol.... ,Mute'em"
    9 Jun 2012, 07:33 PM Reply Like
  • I remember when DOJ broke up ATT in the 70's.
    Why can't we do something similar to top 5 banks?
    It encouraged competition and was a bonus for
    ATT shareholders.
    10 Jun 2012, 09:18 AM Reply Like
  • Yep, that fits Elliott Wave. SPX up to 1359 then down. Maybe Spain news will get it there faster (not higher)
    10 Jun 2012, 10:13 AM Reply Like
  • READ THE ACTUAL STATEMENT - nothing has yet been agreed upon.

    http://bit.ly/LgAAoa
    10 Jun 2012, 01:55 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks Herr Hansa. I doubt that's going to help Spain's bank problems because in the U.S. we had large banks that were well capitalized (BAC and JPM for sure and I think Wells Fargo and several others). I doubt that's the case in Spain.
    10 Jun 2012, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • You doubt incorrectly. STD & BBVA are very well capitalized.
    10 Jun 2012, 04:55 PM Reply Like
  • Tack, enough to swallow the banks that aren't?
    10 Jun 2012, 05:24 PM Reply Like
  • SDNS:

    You seem unaware of the implications of this weekend's actions. It matters not what the balance sheets of these banks are. The EU will provide whatever capital is necessary.
    10 Jun 2012, 06:06 PM Reply Like
  • Tack, I realize the EZ leaders are backstopping the banks. My question is about the "horizontal structural reforms" mentioned in the linked document. I'm wondering what those are and what sorts of things are feasible. If you have answers I welcome them. Why do you feel the need to attack and insult me for having asked a question about this allusion in the Eurogroup's statement?
    10 Jun 2012, 08:38 PM Reply Like
  • btw, Tack, I'm not the only one who's wondering about this comment. The folks at the Economist also noted it and wondered what it refers to: http://econ.st/LLEF4k Looks like there's some speculation about its import here: http://on.ft.com/LLF1rL
    10 Jun 2012, 08:51 PM Reply Like
  • SNDS:

    You're going to have to be more specific as to what's insulting. I said that I didn't believe you had properly grasped the implications of this weekend's actions, not that you didn't love your mother.

    I'm just trying to point out that those that keep publishing all these "endgame" articles and comments, as if the entire EU is about to fold, are seemingly willingly ignoring that the EU is remaining steadfast in supporting its members and the banking/ financial structure that is necessary to maintain the function of the union. The political will to do what's necessary gets reinforced with each action, and the ability to generate funds is not really an issue, as they can issue whatever EU bonds they wish, if they so decide. Money, fundamentally, is limitless.

    Now, as I have opined elsewhere, whether the EU can ultimately incorporate all functioning members over time remains to be seen, but that takes time, and they're off to a decent start in recognizing and addressing problems, and have some chance of success because the governments and the populaces of the various members want the union to succeed, although I also think they need more stimulus and less austerity. Making short-term bets on failure of the EU seems, to me, unlikely to be successful.

    It was particularly smart of the EU to buttress Spain in a major preemptive fashion because it makes any imagined threat from Greece immaterial, and it sends a message to the Geek people, in advance of the elections, that the EU is going on with or without them. This is a powerful inducement for rational behavior, I believe.

    In the end, the EU is going to emulate the U.S. and Fed, more and more, even if reluctantly.

    Again, no personal attack or insult intended. Otherwise, always welcome vibrant dialogue.
    10 Jun 2012, 09:01 PM Reply Like
  • You're reading a lot into my question that isn't there, Tack. I'm just asking what's meant by "horizontal structural reforms". These mysterious little phrases tucked into negotiated political agreements often refer to something worth knowing about. I think the second link I posted above has got it right. There may well be intrusion into Spain's internal affairs. This isn't the "unconditional bailout" it's been portrayed to be.

    This story in the Guardian that ftalpha links to is worth a read: http://bit.ly/Lh7YLw It paints a picture of very deep and pervasive corruption in Spain's financial sector. There's more here than a real estate bubble that's burst. I'd say that the exposure and consequences of that is a story worth following.
    10 Jun 2012, 09:24 PM Reply Like
  • SDNS:

    I have no idea what structural reforms will be pursued. I just think that the EU and Spain have a common goal and will work together. This situation there is much more maleable and manageble than Greece. Rajoy, himself, recently said that Spain would have to make sacrifices in some areas of sovereignty in favor of the union. Spain is playing ball.

    I guess all the fundamental issues on the EU have been beaten to death endlessly, here on SA. The camp is divided in binary fashion, as it is on so many issues, between those who think whatever is done, it will all fail, and those that believe that progress will be made, even if with potholes along the way. I find myself in the latter camp, not only because of the specifics of the case at hand, but because of life experience.

    As unscientific as this may sound, I, too, was once a young, angry cynic, who thought the country/world would be destroyed by the actions of our or another government, and, of course, when you're young, everything is going to happen tomorrow morning. Time frames of youth are always truncated. Then, I aged, and I learned that life goes on, always, and that progress is relentless, if uneven. And, I started to alter my investment style to match my confidence in the continuation of mankind and his businesses.

    So, when I see things beaten down and predictions made that they'll all disappear or never recover, I'm usually right there buying. I've been buying distressed issues, especially with high yields, for more than seventeen years, and I can say it's been a very rewarding strategy.

    I can only advise my fellow investment travelers to focus calmly on opportunity, rather than getting caught up in the heated frenzy of predicted failure. All those angry, afraid people do is provide opportunity for others, who have a more measured view of life. It's too bad we all seem to learn this -- if we do, at all -- late in the game, but that's life.

    Excuse the digression into philosophy, but it underlies so much of how I look at investments.
    10 Jun 2012, 09:57 PM Reply Like
  • Not sure why you feel a need to lecture on attitude. The EZ structure is more deeply flawed than the optimists realize. In fact almost all the popular stories are simplistic to the point of being wrong. The ECB isn't going to issue eurobonds nor will it buy sovereign debt. The stability mechanisms are mostly smoke and mirrors. And so on and on. On the other hand, the pessimists also tell an equally simplified and equally incorrect story. Germany won't simply walk away, nor is it in that nation's benefit to do so. Germany's apparent prosperity is at least partly illusory because it's built upon unsustainable debts incurred by its EZ partners. All parties have proven more willing to compromise than nearly anyone expected. And so on and on.

    The fact is that there's no easy solution here. From day one, my own opinion has always been that the EU and EZ leaders will take half measures -- just enough at each point to stave off an immediate crisis. That they'll prove themselves incapable of taking the big steps needed to confront and resolve the mess they've gotten themselves into. They may or may not be able to muddle through like that. If a crisis point does arrive, I expect it to manifest in Germany, not in the periphery. I'm watching for rising unemployment in Germany. When I see it begin to rise to the levels at the periphery, then I expect we'll see something happen. I'm also watching the German election process as this is far more significant than the elections in Greece or in France. Bellweather Westphalia held early elections and the sentiment was more strongly opposed to the austerians than I think anyone expected. This is significant because the only thing that can rescue the EZ is an ambitious and realistic program for economic growth and that isn't going to come from the Christian Democrats.

    However, all this has nothing to do with the mystery phrase about "horizontal structural reforms" :-)
    10 Jun 2012, 10:38 PM Reply Like
  • I am in almost full accord with your assessment, which I believe supports the view that the EU will prevail, even if with growing pains. It's simply in the common interest to address the issues, and everybody wants to do so, even the German people, who favor the euro by nearly 60% in the last poll. And, funny enough, when they vote against merkel's party, they vote for people who are even more pro-EU and pro-euro.

    So having just read what you say, then, are you a European bull or bear, if you have to pick one.
    10 Jun 2012, 10:52 PM Reply Like
  • because they own congress.
    11 Jun 2012, 09:05 PM Reply Like
  • "The loan will be scaled to provide an effective backstop covering for all possible capital requirements..."

    Lol, they are going to wish they worded this differently.

    I wonder how Greece feels right about now?
    9 Jun 2012, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • Just a slight guess on Greece, based upon the last polls that were allowed. It appears that the two major opposing viewpoint parties could split the largest percentages. My early take on this was that they could not form a government with two diametrically opposed groups. Now with aid going to Spain, I suspect the anti-austerity Greek coalition will not compromise at all, which is more likely to lead to no forming of a government; and once again that would lead to another round of Greek elections in July. Considering that Greece is expected to run out of funding in July, I would expect the Greek drama to take centre stage once again, and for the uncertainty to lead to a market sell-off.
    9 Jun 2012, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • Could be but the Greece people could also get REALLY scarred to be out of the Euro. Spain just got bailed and everyone is preparing for their exit. But you are right, the most likely scenario is what you say and they will run out of money.
    9 Jun 2012, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • Agreed that Greece is unlikely to form a coalition gov't. The numbers simply aren't there. The top two parties keep alternating but they're always polling less than 1/4 of the vote each. The rest is fragmented among KKE, PASOK(!), and the Nazi party. It's crazy and no combination with similar views on the EZ adds up to 50%, let alone a majority. No June tranch of bailout money for Greece!
    9 Jun 2012, 03:43 PM Reply Like
  • [with an additional margin of safety up to €100B in total]

    Wait, last week it was €50B, now it's €100B. So, in reality, it's closer to €200B?
    10 Jun 2012, 09:54 AM Reply Like
  • Even the New Demoracy Party and the POSOK would garner a slim majority of 151 seats, Greece's position would be significantly weakened, given the ongoing econimic erosion in the meantime.

    Things do not look good. If there is a 3rd Round in July, it would be even worse.

    Markets and investors do not like uncertainty. And there is a whole lot of it from Greece.
    10 Jun 2012, 01:20 PM Reply Like
  • Except that (last poll I saw), ND and Pasok together fell short of even 50%. The most stunning thing in the polls is that support for Pasok (formerly the largest party in Greece) has fallen to KKE levels.
    10 Jun 2012, 04:29 PM Reply Like
  • Ah, so here comes the rally...
    9 Jun 2012, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • “Excellent news”

    This should mean JPM & WFC should rally strong Monday, if I am not mistaken!
    I bought 50 June 16, $36.00 Call Options of JPM for .05 Friday, and another 50 for July for .11
    Hope this brings them up for a couple bucks! :)
    9 Jun 2012, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • It's interesting funds are being channeled through FROB and not Spain.

    We're splitting hairs here because loans to Spain would entail extensive sovereign oversight while loans to FROB would not be accompanied by sovereign oversight but oversight over the banking sector. Spain wants to avoid conditionality as imposed on Portugal, Ireland and Greece.

    On the surface this is likely to be market positive but if the loans are originated through the ESM, they will enjoy seniority over all other outstanding debt and may disrupt market trading.
    9 Jun 2012, 04:12 PM Reply Like
  • Cautious,
    The Spanish may be too proud for their own good, but a crummy deal is likely better than no deal. As for sovereign issues, the bond market will the judge of that.

    Realizing that bad loan issues in the banking system (there) are still in the early innings of writedown mode, let's at least hope the back-stop contains language and enough bite to, as Herr Hansa suggested earlier, either consolidate some of the mess or at least put a fence around the more toxic stuff.

    As for Greece, denial will only get them so far. If they haven't figured it out by now, at least show the world that they can come to consensus with what is the lesser of (all) the evils.

    They said no to austerity, they said no to two party majority in its legislature. If they think throwing 50% of the votes into a handful of disparate minority parties is the best they can do then it might be better to dust off the drachma presses and start printing away.

    Just as Karl Marx failed to grasp economics, the Greeks seemingly fail to grasp risk. This is the downside of what happens when you run out of other people's money to spend.
    9 Jun 2012, 07:23 PM Reply Like
  • CI,
    According to one report, there are no funds coming from anywhere. The EFSF or ESM will simply print some bonds, then lend the bonds to the FROB, and the FROB will then use the bonds as collateral to get funds from the ECB. In effect another type of LTRO in substance, with newly issued debt as collateral.

    It's just more debt on more debt, with likely interest due on both the ESM bonds and then to the ECB for any of what will be newly printed money for the collateral posted via the bonds.

    Furthermore there is no indication of how any recapitalization of any Spanish banks will be done. Bankia was mentioned in another report as having the old shareholders wiped out. But even wiping out the old Bankia shareholders may not be enough as that recapitalization was supposedly about 25 billion euros and that may be much more equity than the old Bankia shareholders had. No mention of how Bankia bondholders are to be affected or even if the 25 billion is enough to handle the total real estate and loan losses of Bankia. No mention is made of how recapitalization of any other Spanish banks will be done. And apparently according to another report Spain is already on the hook for about 15 billion euros for some smaller regional banks already propped up earlier.
    9 Jun 2012, 10:24 PM Reply Like
  • This is a TARP-like measure to save foreign bondholders following a huge real estate asset bubble everyone has been talking about for years. Ring a bell? U.S., Ireland. No comparison to Greece, where the state's bankruptcy led to the banking sector's insolvency.
    9 Jun 2012, 04:15 PM Reply Like
  • What a joke....the spainish are playing low ball saying they need 40 billion to bail out their banks and the govt acts as sponsors (guarantors/ interest payees) and the EU finance ministers say that they can give 100 billion Euros. Seriously, did we not hear this in 2007/2008- so bear sterns, lehman brothers, AIG, Northern Rock, Bank of Scotland and a bunch of other banks went down. What we talking about housing bubble amongst other things. What is Spain- a huge housing bubble so 40 billion to capitalise their banks is a joke...CDS must be in abundance and whoever is betting on US banks might make money in the short term but in the long run banks are betting where the risk is high and loosing sometimes like the London whale (Did not JPM say 1 billion and now its 5 billion). Give me a break short the Eurousd and the DAX instead and go long the USD and buy gold @ 1480(speculative).....
    The chinese in my view are doing just that: largest holder of USD reserves, will probably devalue their currency and then convert their USD reserves in yuan or use the USD to buy European assets which are cheap with a rising USD. They are also the worlds largest buyers of Gold.....so they are stocking their reserve in case the US stop printing USD which is not happening in the short term, if anything the Central bank will print more USD in July/August.....before elections are over....
    9 Jun 2012, 05:28 PM Reply Like
  • http://seekingalpha.co...
    9 Jun 2012, 05:51 PM Reply Like
  • “The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced, if the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”

    This statement was made by Cicero in 55 B.C.

    Do you really think after 2000 years, June 17th changes anything? We'll be hearing this story as long as we live, best just to ignore it and make your investing plans as usual.
    10 Jun 2012, 09:00 AM Reply Like
  • Another nail in the euro's coffin! Even the EUR 100 bil., which is far too small, does not exist for the bailout.
    10 Jun 2012, 09:36 AM Reply Like
  • Well this was expected but now that it's final I think a big rally tomorrow and all week.
    10 Jun 2012, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • Bernanke strong hand! He did it! Yes!
    11 Jun 2012, 09:27 AM Reply Like
  • What a rally, Europe opened so high that I almost fell of my chair....(I wanted to short but PEER pressure killed me) but now I get it, profit taken, bond prices rose to new highs and the rally died, Euro back up vs the USD, that I FIND ridiculous as there is no OpTwist or QE3 before next month.....so what we waiting for- the Greeks to act :)
    11 Jun 2012, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • can both shoes drop at once?
    11 Jun 2012, 09:10 PM Reply Like
  • can an elephant dance- YES- Operation Twist must reference the "twist" "can the Europeans Swing? Watch Italy jive after Greece breakdances through Sundays coalition govt formation and takes more money for less austerity and no growth. Short the Euro is a mantra that is not happening, Gold is rising where is the FED & QE3CUBE. What I like is Greece stays in the EU and the Euro rises as there is some sign of stability in Europe immediately after is the FED meeting where we all expect QE3/Twisting but if Europe is stable and the beige books shows growth then no QE3/twist as the world is calm. But if Greece leaves the EU then chaos in Europe and we could expect a crash Dax@3000-4000 range followed by the US and the FED issuing lots of cash. Where is Ronald Regan now?
    12 Jun 2012, 11:20 AM Reply Like
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