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Consumers may enjoy the extra $10 or $20 in their pockets thanks to falling gasoline prices, but...

  • Saturday, June 23, 2012, 8:45 AM ET
    Consumers may enjoy the extra $10 or $20 in their pockets thanks to falling gasoline prices, but the slide in crude oil and other commodities is nothing to celebrate. It's a reaction to slowing economies, which makes for an odd leap of logic when one tries to argue that falling commodity prices will help boost those same economies. Does saving a few bucks at the gas pump really make you any richer?
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This news story has 72 comments:

  • Of course saving money at the pump increases the wealth of the average American. It is the equivalent of a sudden tax cut (increase when prices rise). I can't see why there's any doubt about that. In addition, there is a hard to calculate, but very real effect on confidence in general.
    23 Jun 2012, 08:53 AM Reply Like
  • How true it is dneedle1,

    I only have one question,

    is this "Bush's Fault" also?
    24 Jun 2012, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • Energy prices operate as a choke chain on the US economy.

    The reversal of a pipeline from Cushing to the Gulf, and increased US production, are providing some relief from this effect.

    As such, the US economy may prove more resilient than the global economy
    23 Jun 2012, 08:53 AM Reply Like
  • Falling commodity prices don't stimulate economic output? Lower industrial metals prices won't make it easier for producers to lower their finished good prices, while maintaining their margin? Or are you saying that lower prices don't make it easier for consumers to buy things, given their budgetary constraints? Are you suggesting that lower gasoline prices won't cause, at least, some people to drive more, during the summer "driving season"?

    I think you best head back to Econ 101...
    23 Jun 2012, 08:53 AM Reply Like
  • Actually gas prices have dropped significantly. This winter we were spending $140/wk to fill both of the family cars. We are now spending around $110 and prices are still dropping. That is 30 X 4 or 120/month or $1440 more a year. So i would say we are $1,140 richer!
    23 Jun 2012, 08:55 AM Reply Like
  • It doesn't make a difference if its a one times savings, but its a cumulative effect. Saving $50 per month is another bill you can pay instead of gas.

    If you hate gas that much you can always buy an Everest EV for less than $20k and get tax breaks for it.

    mynewev.com
    23 Jun 2012, 09:01 AM Reply Like
  • Thank you for the link and the exposure to Vision EVs.

    Although, it appears they're only available to fleet purchasers right now?
    23 Jun 2012, 05:06 PM Reply Like
  • I think you can get the hopper.
    23 Jun 2012, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • Remember the talk 3 month ago?? Gas prices were going to crush the economy. November gasoline futures hit a high of 2.98 ( equal to
    3.78 reg gasoline in November) on 3/13/12... yesterday this futures closed at 2.21
    (3.01 reg gasoline for November). Recessions generally start ( with other factors)if crude oil
    y-o-y goes over 40% FIRST.....we are negative y-o-y....Negative
    y-o-y oil prices generally lead to an improved economy later on....
    23 Jun 2012, 09:01 AM Reply Like
  • More importantly, remember how folks were saying $100 oil was permanent and that the Bernank was an idiot because high oil was here to stay and inflationary and not transitory....

    Fact is just as the 'inflation' calls people made when oil was on its way up were wrong the 'deflation' calls people are making with oil on its way down are wrong too.

    The energy market is getting a bit more rational as 2008's spike starts getting removed from models...
    23 Jun 2012, 09:08 AM Reply Like
  • Hmmmmmmmmmmm lets see..............using some real math and logic not the usual "Seeking Alpha Chicken Little Rick Santelli Zero Hedge the Sky is Always Falling Emotion."

    Take an average American bringing home $1,000 per week after taxes. Lets say gas is now $3 per gallon and this average harding working middle class American who wakes up everyday and commutes to work to put food on the table and provide healthcare for this family (lol) must fill his or her 15 gallon gas tank twice per week. I figured this description was appropriate since we are in an election year.

    Lets do the math:

    52 weeks * 2 fill-ups per week * 15 gallons * $3 per gallon = $4,680 per year or 9% of annual income (4680/(1000 per week * 52 weeks).

    Now lets say gas declines to $2.50 per gallon. Lets do the math again:

    52 weeks * 2 fill-ups per week * 15 gallons * $2.50 per gallon = $3,900 or 7.5% of annual income (3900/(1000 per week * 52 weeks).

    Savings of $780 annualy (4680-3900).

    So now this person can buy an iPad with 3G and accessories!

    Think that is stimulative to the economy if millions more Americans can now afford an iPad?

    Gee I wonder if the answer is yes! Lol.
    23 Jun 2012, 09:05 AM Reply Like
  • Great exercise in actually calculating the numbers. At 30 gal/week and 20 miles/gallon, that's 600 miles a week or 120 per work day, or 2-3 hours commute....Ugh! I'd be looking for something closer to home.
    23 Jun 2012, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • so your question -- does saving a few bucks at the gas pump make one richer - I believe simple math says "YES"
    23 Jun 2012, 09:14 AM Reply Like
  • Not if they all spend it on an iPad.
    23 Jun 2012, 08:50 PM Reply Like
  • Don't forget natural gas. Fracking has increased supply, resulting in rock bottom prices.

    Many businesses are able to switch from oil to gas, reducing costs. Various chemicals industries use natural gas as a feedstock, and the US now has a cost advantage on that basis.

    Over time natural gas will make its way into transportation uses, providing additional breathing room for oil prices.

    Natual gas, when used to generate electricity, is fairly flexible. That improves the ability to alternate between wind or solar and fossil fuels, again reducing reliance on oil for power generation.
    23 Jun 2012, 09:15 AM Reply Like
  • Rising commodity prices have mainly reflected the fact that the dollar is not a store of value and have been a primary contributor to the impoverishment of the middle class. Any decline, even a temporary one superimposed on the long-term exponential trend to infinity, is a welcome one. Unfortunately, if one looks at long-term charts, it is clear that the ebb and flow and supply and demand that is currently favourable to lower prices is of little consequence when compared with the overall trend. However long or deep this respite ends up being, dollar destruction will eventually dominate.

    If the current definition of global economic growth is that the cost of living rides the exponential growth curve of dollar decay while income is stagnant and employment declines, we need to change our vocabulary to reflect common usage.
    23 Jun 2012, 09:17 AM Reply Like
  • I wonder if the slowing economy wasn't at least partly due to the previous high in crude oil a couple of months ago spiking gas prices to $4/gal?

    The Wall Street Journal can blame the slide in oil prices as a symptom of "a weakening economy" if they want.

    My take is they are right, but the previous spike in oil prices helped to cause the now weakened economy.

    Freddy Hunter at Trendlines predicts crude bottoming @ $63 by September. I'll take what I can get, thank you.
    23 Jun 2012, 09:47 AM Reply Like
  • The point is well taken but I would express it differently.

    As GDP growth picks up, oil prices rise pushing back and down on GDP growth. This has been true for a number of years and oil prices/demand are leading indicators of economic activity/expectations.

    Natural Gas is a different story. The fracking revolution has opened up vast new quantities of the stuff (outpacing demand) providing cheaper energy.
    23 Jun 2012, 10:25 AM Reply Like
  • NG pricing has a lot to do with the fact that it is generally piped direct to its consumers - i.e. its production/consumption tend to be mostly captive while oil is much more mobile and migrates where demand/prices is highest.
    23 Jun 2012, 10:29 AM Reply Like
  • Saving twenty dollars a week does not make me any richer.. All these wise guys in here, are u serious?
    23 Jun 2012, 11:24 AM Reply Like
  • Which is $1040 a year, or about the typical "savings" associated with the 200bp reduction in the payroll tax. The difference is that the payroll tax reduction didn't come with a spending cut, so it's just adding to debt that will have to be repaid later; paying less for commodities, especially imported ones, means we actually have more money. No one who argued for the payroll tax holiday can possibly argue against the benefits of lower commodity prices, which are comparable in size but strictly better as they come without an increase in debt. Anyone expressing those inconsistent views is exposing his agenda: higher inflation and more indebtedness. You know who has an agenda that looks a lot like that one? Bankers. Throw in the prospect of more people on the dole and you'll have an outcome the politicians and public sector unions will sign up to support, too.
    23 Jun 2012, 11:31 AM Reply Like
  • No one is suggesting you are making millions wise guy.

    If you want to argue against lower gas prices then you've got a screw loose.

    If you were dumb enough to invest in energy and hang on to it once it topped out, that's your problem.
    23 Jun 2012, 11:32 AM Reply Like
  • to earn that kind of return investing in 10 year treasuires, you would need $65,000 in the bank.

    Seriously, you could check the math.
    23 Jun 2012, 12:04 PM Reply Like
  • Exaggeration
    Insult
    Insult
    Insensitivity

    Grow up.
    23 Jun 2012, 08:58 PM Reply Like
  • When you multiply that 20 a week times every American that drives it makes a huge difference.

    Consider the huge debate there was regarding the payroll tax reduction, probably 50% of the population payroll tax cut was less than what they save on gas during the recent decline.
    23 Jun 2012, 11:34 AM Reply Like
  • Curious headline from Seeking Alpha, I'm pretty sure when crude was above $110, they were saying "How much longer can the US consumer afford $4 gas?"

    The answer is yes, gas prices falling is a big deal. Fuel is the #1 input of any economy, especially the US economy. A fall in prices there is beneficial to the US consumer, but these benefits take time to show.

    However, it is also true that the magnitude and velocity of the fall in fuel prices indicate a slowing global economy. India and China power most everything from crude-based products, so for Brent crude to fall from $130 to below $90 indicates a large drop-off in demand. Still, this move is massively overblown in the near-term, as OPEC and the Saudis cannot afford for crude to be below $90/barrel to fund their social programs promised as part of the Arab Spring. Brent at $90 is a definite buy, looking for a retraced move above $100.
    23 Jun 2012, 11:42 AM Reply Like
  • Ananthan,
    A slowing global economy or an increase in supply? If the frackers in the Bakken keep finding more oil, what happens to your analysis? Can your finances withstand a delay in that retrace move?
    23 Jun 2012, 11:27 PM Reply Like
  • This is incorrect. A slowing global economy certainly depresses energy futures but for oil prices, fracking is a very significant factor.

    The spread between Brent and WTI has been large and is finally narrowing as the transport sector moves to take advantage of that. Fracking for natgas has led to historically low prices which in turn are driving substitution of natgas for oil in a number of applications. Meanwhile fracking is being used for oil now and the resulting increase in supply has been driving down prices for WTI.

    To twist a phrase, it's not just the economy, stupid.
    23 Jun 2012, 11:44 AM Reply Like
  • Gasoline Prices are a small expense relatively speaking for my family of four. I run Quicken to balance our checkbook and I have spent $2878 for the last 12 months on gas.

    Compare this to the amount we pay annually on health care. $10,000 for full coverage with a $2000 deductible. $12000 total - this is by far one of our biggest annual expenses.

    If business and government really want to get together to help middle class American families, healthcare would be a good place to start.
    23 Jun 2012, 12:04 PM Reply Like
  • Indeed.
    The obsession with gas prices is of the "penny wise pound foolish" variety. I rather have a 5% reduction in my healthcare premium than a 5% reduction in the gas price.

    Time to start regulating the health care industry and place caps on the premiums. The greed displayed by insurers and the medical industry is nauseating.
    23 Jun 2012, 12:20 PM Reply Like
  • There is a very simple (but brutal) way to to lower health care costs: Outlaw health insurance. Leave Medicare & Social Security Disability in place to protect the old and disabled and set up a program for expensive, catastrophic illnesses. Everyone else pays cash, including federal, state & county municipal workers & the private sector.

    No one can afford to pay cash at the going rates, so health care costs would drop like a stone.

    The gigantic health care/health insurance/government tax sucking ponzi scheme would collapse like Lehman Brothers.

    If I can pay for their insurance, but I can't have that for myself, then f*ck 'em.
    23 Jun 2012, 12:44 PM Reply Like
  • You mean force doctors and nurses into our public chattel?

    Sounds like 'the greed' is displayed by you.
    23 Jun 2012, 01:05 PM Reply Like
  • "There is a very simple (but brutal) way to to lower health care costs: Outlaw health insurance. Leave Medicare & Social Security Disability in place to protect the old and disabled and set up a program for expensive, catastrophic illnesses."

    So, set up a program for expensive, catastrophic illnesses?

    Like... uh... oh... I dunno, how about something like insurance?
    23 Jun 2012, 01:07 PM Reply Like
  • Its not about you! Yes it helps you, but you are short sighted. The price of gas affects everything you buy. You're clothes will be more expensive and so do your groceries. This really jacks up prices.
    23 Jun 2012, 01:13 PM Reply Like
  • "The price of gas affects everything you buy."

    Good point. It's a broad-based inflation driver.
    23 Jun 2012, 01:16 PM Reply Like
  • I have been saying this for years. Health insurance has ruined the industry beacuse there is no competition. Providers are the ones increasing costs by charging more, and Insurance companies rake in billions in premiums while restricting benefits.

    God forbid doctors and hospitals have to compete with each other.

    The purpose for insuance is to help with catastrophic care, something happens that you cannot forsee. Now its used for every ity bity thing like lancing blisters and check ups. If you limit insurance to surgery and catastropic care, and pay cash for the rest, you can balance out costs by introducing some competition.
    23 Jun 2012, 01:17 PM Reply Like
  • Wyatt try to keep up. Yes it would uh, duh of course be insurance.

    The point is it would only pay for expensive, catastrophic illnesses, not everything.
    23 Jun 2012, 06:08 PM Reply Like
  • sr1977, you have it nailed. The system now encourages massive gaming by Big Pharma and expensive "diagnostic" routines.

    A focus on a healthy lifestyle with direct payment for services and insurance on catastrophic events would drop costs by a huge percentage. Insurance premiums could be somewhat tied to dangerous practices (smoking, mountain climbing etc.) to encourage people to mitigate risk.
    23 Jun 2012, 06:53 PM Reply Like
  • This is largely the system we have in place today with the "High Deductible Health Savings Account (HSA)". In fact, if you do some digging, you'll find that the average distribution from HSAs annually is about the same as the average expense incurred by health insurers for basic primary care services....checkups, immunizations, physicals and basic services.

    Effectively, the HSA system transfers the payment obligation for the non-catostrophic services onto the consumer, who pays cash. This is what you described. Unfortunately, it hasn't really dented and won't dent the $66 trillion unfunded obligations of our three largest (and public) healthcare systems.
    25 Jun 2012, 12:41 PM Reply Like
  • Because its not widely used. I understand what HSA's do, but they are feeble and don't make sense in our system right now. HSA needs to be joined with the catastrophic care, those coupled together would make a more balanced system of cash and insurance in my opinion.
    25 Jun 2012, 03:45 PM Reply Like
  • Actually, the entire point of the HSA is to pay for the basic services. The "high deductible" is in combination with a health insurance policy that doesn't kick in until the deductible is spent. Thus, if the consumer burns through the deductible, potentially as a result of a catastrophic event, the insurance pays. It is EXACTLY what you describe.

    Im not suggesting its perfect. Nor am I suggesting its widely available. Im in Minneapolis, where HSA plans are the norm, but I don't know whats available elsewhere. Im simply pointing out that the system you described exists.
    26 Jun 2012, 08:29 AM Reply Like
  • You guys and your rants crack me up.. You guys talk like your opinions are worth a damn.. Haha
    23 Jun 2012, 01:19 PM Reply Like
  • Wow, check out the big brain on Kyle. We are having a discussion, care to join or just continue to show you don't know anything?
    23 Jun 2012, 01:22 PM Reply Like
  • Why so serious?

    A quote from the Joker in The Dark Knight, turned in to an internet fad/meme. Usually used on angry, emotional people who tend to go overboard or not understand jokes.
    23 Jun 2012, 09:14 PM Reply Like
  • Great movie.
    23 Jun 2012, 09:20 PM Reply Like
  • I'm sure Obamacare is the answer.
    23 Jun 2012, 01:22 PM Reply Like
  • You're getting close.
    23 Jun 2012, 01:28 PM Reply Like
  • I'm sure you mean that sarcastically but you do realize that if people aren't required to take on the personal responsibility of covering their own insurance, we'll then be back to the hugely expensive (and totally unfunded) deficit driver of Reagan's EMTALA: http://bit.ly/Mrqz8u For myself, I prefer the route of personal responsibility, deficit reduction, and the ACA (aka Obamacare).
    23 Jun 2012, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • Not being sarcastic, mandatory coverage eliminates the problem of adverse selection, and collects a premium, however small, from those who would otherwise receive benefits without paying for them.

    Whether the ACA is the best implementation of the basic solution is open to discussion. It's America, you have a political process, special interest groups with their hands out and their wallets open, fraud ongoing, so on and so forth.

    At a basic level life style choices contribute heavily to the expense of chronic illnesses. I personally have made the various changes required to make it to retirement without incurring medical costs of this kind, meanwhile paying, or my employer paying which ultimately comes from the same source, for those who can't or won't exert moderation and take proper exercise and nutrition.

    I've reached the point, whatever happens is not going to be fair at some level, the best way to deal with it take care of your own health and enjoy life.
    23 Jun 2012, 02:27 PM Reply Like
  • Hi Tom, that wasn't directed to you. It was a reply to Texas Tom. I should have made that clear because the threading is often hard to follow. I think you and I are in basic agreement here.
    23 Jun 2012, 02:44 PM Reply Like
  • And we can apply the same logic of mandatory coverage to everything under the sun Tom. Everything. Even things much more necessary than healthcare.

    Mandatory coverage for foodcare.

    Check.

    48 million americans now on foodstamps. Almost three quarters of a trillion dollars now in transfer payments.

    Mandatory coverage for housing.

    Check.

    Not just Sec 8 housing. Our last(and current) crisis was due to mandatory home ownership via lowering the standards on credit to all.

    Mandatory air care.

    Almost. Not yet, but almost. Cap-n-trade.

    Mandatory bank care.

    Check.

    Frank-Dodd is here until the SCOTUS knocks it down after Shyster Care gets powned next week.

    Mandatory pensions.

    Check.

    Look at GM. It was a bailout of VEBA for the UAW.

    I guess the government really can do all things under sun, from the cradle to the grave.

    Welcome to the Matrix.
    23 Jun 2012, 04:21 PM Reply Like
  • "Not being sarcastic, mandatory coverage(*payment) eliminates the problem of adverse selection, and collects a premium, however small, from those who would otherwise receive benefits without paying for them. "


    Same thing applies to income tax.
    23 Jun 2012, 04:40 PM Reply Like
  • ^ hey why don't ya relax madav.. Take a chill pill lol. I follow gas prices as an economic indicator so I went short on Thursday.. Stay focused on those gasoline savings buddy I'm sure it will benefit you. Gotta love that extra 20 bucks a week..
    23 Jun 2012, 01:39 PM Reply Like
  • I will! Movie time!
    23 Jun 2012, 02:16 PM Reply Like
  • Another SA ironyfest. On one hand people are making light of the additional savings from lower oil prices and on the other hand we have the financial gravity of the incessant discussions from the SA dividend crowd on how to eek out more pennies from their portfolios.
    23 Jun 2012, 02:18 PM Reply Like
  • how does that constitute irony?
    23 Jun 2012, 02:25 PM Reply Like
  • It would be nice if this thread stayed on topic at least.
    If it was moderated it would be half as long. Comparisons are one thing, but take the health care posts to a more appropriate thread. This thread has a terrible case of ADD. Keep SA threads on topic.
    23 Jun 2012, 09:28 PM Reply Like
  • Staying on topic?

    That would take all the fun out of the debating club. Somebody uses the "O" word, and we're off to the races, you can while away a couple of hours, between innings on the baseball game, or mowing your lawn, it fills out the day.
    23 Jun 2012, 09:35 PM Reply Like
  • The irony is that the SA dividend crowd would view carving out an additional $20/week out of their holdings a serious matter.

    Whereas some of the SA crowd here views the average Joe getting an additional 20 bucks/week as inconsequential.
    25 Jun 2012, 12:39 PM Reply Like
  • I can't. believe how stupid the comment about saving a few bucks.

    Savings of 20 dollars a week for the average family is as much benefit as the payroll tax cut
    23 Jun 2012, 03:05 PM Reply Like
  • Ya, and that's not saying much. 40 years ago my Mom gave my Dad $20 a week to cover his misc expenses like coffee and snacks to add to his bagged lunch at work. He made it work. Now I can't run to the local grocery store for a few staples without spending $20. You can do all the public math you want, $20/wk is something, don't get me wrong there, but "Does saving a few bucks at the gas pump really make you any richer?" Not really. It almost covers two people going to the movies ... almost. People will drive across town to save pennies on gas. They need to do the math. Am I glad gas is going down? Yes. Depreciation is not all bad. Read or listen to Peter Schiff, The Real Crash. Get ready.
    23 Jun 2012, 09:44 PM Reply Like
  • " Now I can't run to the local grocery store for a few staples without spending $20."

    I can. I frequently buy enough for several meals (avocados, tortillas, and frozen veggies) at Trader Joes for about $10.
    23 Jun 2012, 09:47 PM Reply Like
  • Good deal! I guess it's relative. $20 seems to make YOU richer.
    24 Jun 2012, 01:12 AM Reply Like
  • It's called fiscal discipline :-) There's no reason to spend more than I need to. Since I can buy a very healthful, tasty, and convenient combination of food staples for $10, why would I choose to spend more than twice that?
    24 Jun 2012, 08:25 AM Reply Like
  • This US economy was tanking before the gas price popped on Iran noise.Now it falls slower than it rose ..wonder why ? However, the real people who are hurt the most don't have cars and the bus fairs have climbed due to fuel increases and will never fall ! Once they raise fairs it becomes permanent....

    All the worldwide trends are intact and the cheaper gas won't offset all the other increases. I don't see a way to stop the 2013 slowdown. Whether it becomes an "official recession" in the US or not !

    The whole US ball of wax relies on the housing market and it is weak. Yes #s are ticking up,but, there way off pre Lehman #s..

    Normally in times like these the US somehow bails the economic engine with a war that appears out of nowhere,but, we've been there an done that too often ! Lately and it didn't work even with trillions spent on US companies. No ?

    Now the billionaires tripled and 150,000,000 people sank under the poverty table.

    We should all be eating cake ! Drop the reserve and let Ben print much, much ,more. We're all Greek ! DL
    23 Jun 2012, 03:19 PM Reply Like
  • President Obama say he would crack down on big oil companies and wall street traders in the Spring, he did and its money in my pocket.
    23 Jun 2012, 03:20 PM Reply Like
  • Terry, you always provide good comic relief! LOL
    23 Jun 2012, 03:34 PM Reply Like
  • Hey daytona calm yourself down and look at the bigger picture, the economy is slowing. Quit thinking so small. I know 20 dollars a week is a lot to you but in the grand scheme of things it's not. Gasoline prices are saving you money right now but it is a sign that we face a much bigger problem ahead.
    23 Jun 2012, 04:33 PM Reply Like
  • Kyle, if you don't want the extra $20/week, you can always send it to me.
    23 Jun 2012, 11:35 PM Reply Like
  • What happened to all the comments that the administration was driving up energy costs on purpose to force us to adopt alternate energy?
    23 Jun 2012, 10:03 PM Reply Like
  • Well....now that YOU bring it up.....
    23 Jun 2012, 10:16 PM Reply Like
  • In 2008, S&P 500 led the decline.

    This time, crude oil leads the decline.

    It's a huge difference.
    23 Jun 2012, 11:48 PM Reply Like
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