Seeking Alpha
Seeking Alpha Portfolio App for iPad
Finance
(1)
Market Currents

Today's corporate profits reflect a production and income shift away from 2011, when tax rates...

  • Monday, June 7, 2010, 6:15 PM ET
    Today's corporate profits reflect a production and income shift away from 2011, when tax rates will rise, into 2010, Arthur Laffer says. The result will be plunging profits and stocks next year. Remembering surging growth rates when Reagan's tax cuts took effect, Laffer says "Obama's experience with deferred tax rate increases will be the reverse. The economy will collapse in 2011."
Track new comments on this story

This news story has 39 comments:

  • "Collapse" is such a strong word. Can't we settle for "soften", or "ease", or something else that doesn't sound so harsh?

    Of course, what do you expect from an executive branch that doesn't understand what a P/E ratio stands for?
    7 Jun 2010, 06:24 PM Reply Like
  • I read this article earlier today and re-read right now.

    All I can say is duh.

    Major pain and millions more lost jobs are being mandated by our caring, responsible Congress.
    7 Jun 2010, 06:41 PM Reply Like
  • Whatever happened to Jeane Dixon? She was more fun and just as accurate as Art.
    7 Jun 2010, 06:47 PM Reply Like
  • i so hope you are right, waiting to buy equities much lower....
    7 Jun 2010, 06:53 PM Reply Like
  • We should all be making financial plans for when these taxes are back on...Capital gains is just one of them..
    7 Jun 2010, 06:56 PM Reply Like
  • I believe higher marginal tax rates are bad for long term growth (look at europe) but I disagree with this forecast.

    There were major income tax rate increases in the mid 1970's (inflationary bracket creep) and the 1990's (Cinton's rate increases) but they did not stop either the economic recovery, or the market.
    7 Jun 2010, 06:58 PM Reply Like
  • Your memory is different than mine. The Ford tax increases, by making rental real estate less profitable, over time, led to the S&L debacle. They also wiped out a huge number of semi-pro sports teams, which led to significant budget problems in many small towns and cities, which to this day they haven't fully recovered from. The economic problems under Carter had some of their roots in the Ford tax increases. Clinton's tax increases weren't as damaging, but they led to more creative accounting to minimize their effects, which the dot-com bubble and subsequent bursting.
    7 Jun 2010, 07:07 PM Reply Like
  • Angel,

    Other macro factors helped to offset the tax increases. We had oil prices collapse (acts like a tax cut), we had Fed interest rates lower or steady(created credit growth), remember the peace dividend(think fed gvt spent it but there was a perception in market place), and of course the dot boom/technology innovation that where all elements that covered up/overcame the Bush/Clinton tax increases in the 90's.

    Not seeing that with Obama's policies or the macro economic factors that would drive inovation to overcome the federal government revised tax and spend policies.
    7 Jun 2010, 07:12 PM Reply Like
  • I at least partly agree with charliezap.

    Companies have increasing pricing power, increasing profit margins, productivity gains, outsourcing, expanding volumes, consolitaion going on - but look at the jobs situation! I am not taking into consideration any exports, since our imports outpace our exports.

    Finance and Government are the only "growth industry" in America. If companies don't want to pay americans - how do they expect to make more money? Isn't growth supposed to come from more people joining the middle and upper classes?

    Inflation adjusted incomes have been going down for most people in the last 10 years (using Headline inflation), that should cause people to spend less or borrow more. Both are bad.

    7 Jun 2010, 09:48 PM Reply Like
  • Carter's tax increases (including a "windfall profit" tax on oil), DIRECTLY caused the early 80s "double dip" recession, with energy inflation and LOSS OF JOBS.

    As will these ones.

    Clinton's term prospered because of TWO once-in-a-lifetime events - dotcom and Y2K. Those two temporary industries added MILLIONS of high paying jobs. Which then disappeared by 2001.

    Bush's term "prospered" because of TWO events - homeland security and cheap and easy credit.

    Wake UP. Increasing taxes NEVER helps. Never. As we all soon will find out.
    15 Jun 2010, 11:31 AM Reply Like
  • At the rate we're going, presently, pessimism, defeatism and fear will kill this market, and the economy, long before the effects of any change in marginal tax rates can be computed.
    7 Jun 2010, 06:59 PM Reply Like
  • Tack, if main street is and has since March 2009 been sitting on the sidelines in cash, treasuries, etc the only investors who can kill this market are the so called smart money investors, main street the dumb money are the ones who are as you say are pessimist, defeatist and fearful have no skin in the game, so who are you referring to
    7 Jun 2010, 08:15 PM Reply Like
  • no, the economy will kill the economy.
    7 Jun 2010, 11:03 PM Reply Like
  • It is starting to go down right now, we don't have to wait till 2011.
    7 Jun 2010, 07:00 PM Reply Like
  • Tack..everything you mention is a byproduct of poor policy....not the other way around. there is a fine line between taxes and growth ..and unfortunately the greedy capitalist have led us to an extended recession . The great recession part 2: the real one -not the one posponed by the fed, but the one of 3-5 year depression ,followed by 3-5 year hangover AND then : here's the good part! hopefully a normal functioning economy with 2-5% yearly gains in property and 4-7% gains in equity investing ..oh yeah and an economy self sufficient on natural gas and wind
    7 Jun 2010, 07:08 PM Reply Like
  • bigbab:

    Hey, if we're going to have an FDR-like depression and extended malaise, I have only one question: who's going to start the next world war to bail out the economy this time, because nothing that was done by policymakers had any positive effect last go-round.

    Frankly, we better not have some deflationary depression, now, because the governments of the world have already flooded the system with currency. This should lead to inflation, if anything, not some depressing, deflationary funk that everybody keeps predicting. In the '30's, monetary policy was exactly the opposite of now, so I don't expect similar results unless --and this is a big "unless" in our relentlessly pessimistic world-- society, aided and abetted by our wonderful media, becomes so despondent that nobody cares about how much money is actually available to do things.

    It really boils down to one big case of societal depression, not classical economic depression. There's utterly no systemic shortage of money, now.
    7 Jun 2010, 07:19 PM Reply Like
  • Now I get it. Tack is really Phil Gramm. "We are just a bunch of whiners and the recession is all in our heads."
    7 Jun 2010, 07:38 PM Reply Like
  • In sports and in life, if you think you'll fail, you will.

    There's plenty of capital sitting around. Most people are now afraid to borrow because they don't want debt burdens, and most banks are afraid to lend because they fear not getting paid. It's all a self-feeding, self-perpetuating, self-fulfilling cycle. This is some surprise?

    The banks are utterly swimming in money, right now. They just reported all-time record-level deposits. (This isn't my opinion; it's hard, cold, documentable fact, just reported in the news a couple days ago.)

    The only thing that prevents commerce and stalls dollar velocity is plain, old human fear. Look around; people are now petrified of everything: Europe, euro, China housing, commodity busts, Gulf oil leaks, deflation, you name it. Heck, why hasn't somebody posited, yet, that we'll be hit by an asteroid soon? And, heaven knows, there are plenty of traders will to perpetuate doom to profit upon it.

    In one regard, FDR was right about one thing: "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself."
    7 Jun 2010, 08:58 PM Reply Like
  • In sports lets make GS, JPM, C, Dark pools, HFT, and Congress the "refs". Then we'll see how much of it is "if you think you'll fail, you will", and how much is "Hey, this game is rigged against me, no matter how hard I play"
    7 Jun 2010, 11:06 PM Reply Like
  • Marketguy

    if the casino is so rigged, why to do you keep playing?
    8 Jun 2010, 08:00 AM Reply Like
  • I'm a trader, not an "investor". I make money on both sides.
    8 Jun 2010, 08:17 AM Reply Like
  • Anyone who remembers the Y2K problem will also remember that the computer industry had a field day selling newer gear in time for Y2K, but they wound up pulling all the sales that created their contribution margin and net income in 2000-2002 forward, and within four months of Jan 2000 the NASDAQ peaked and the computer industry went into a swoon, along with the overbuilt telecom industry.

    Same idea here, except that it's taxes this time. Expect many tech companies to load their offshore units with cash, spin them off (with shared management), and after the Obama fiscal collapse, buy the floundering US units on the cheap as subsidiaries. Remember that under this scenario, there will never be a unitary US tax applied to the offshore units' profits.

    Hmmm...this could be a good hedge-fund play. Seven months to Jan 2011, kids.
    7 Jun 2010, 07:16 PM Reply Like
  • Supply side is what wrecked this country-Look at the distribution of wealth since Laffer came into influence-great for the top 1%-who cares what his opinions are-he has been proven wrong by history!
    7 Jun 2010, 07:29 PM Reply Like
  • Supply side is what has been pushed since Eve had an apple pushed in her face. A demand side paradigm would be great but how was Laffer actually wrong?
    7 Jun 2010, 09:53 PM Reply Like
  • Ah yes, higher taxes, geopolitical weakness, and a total lack of comprehension of the effect of higher tax rates on the working household and small businesses.

    Hello Jimmy Carter 1970's style stagflation mediocrity, all coming two years after the closest thing to a Depression since the Great Depression.

    Bright spot? Disco and bell bottoms probably won't come back.
    7 Jun 2010, 08:28 PM Reply Like
  • Arthur Laffer has been a one-note Johnny ever since he drew his curve on a napkin. He hasn't had an original thought since then.

    During the Clinton 8 years, we had tax increases, but the US economy gained 22 million jobs, nonetheless. The stock market boomed, so much so in fact that Alan Greenspan called it "irrational exuberance". At the end of the Clinton term, the federal budget was in a surplus.

    During the Bush 8 years, we got 3 tax cuts, but job growth remained sluggish. Alan Greenspan decided to help out. He kept short term interest rates below inflation for 3 years, starting the housing bubble. Eventually, the economy gained 6 million jobs, but all of these were lost, and then some more, in the housing bust. In the Bush term of office, budget deficits became chronic, and by the end of it, the US public debt had doubled.

    Conclusions: A) We must work to reduce the federal deficit, and, B) there is zero correlation between tax cuts and job growth, and, by extension, between tax cuts and stock market gains. To the contrary, tax cuts create budget deficits, which in turn lead to financial crises and recession.
    7 Jun 2010, 09:01 PM Reply Like
  • I like your comment. However, I do not think you can prove (B). It all depends on the starting point. In my opinion, the best we could could do with the tax code is simplify it to the extreme. Maybe two rates and almost no exemptions. I would leave charitable contributions since it goes to non-profit but I'd rather kill that than allow anything else.
    7 Jun 2010, 09:09 PM Reply Like
  • Harry you are absolutely correct, the tax code needs to simplified, And I too believe Charlie makes a good point up to a point: It's all about economic stability; fiscal and monetary policy can not, and should not be used for political or social manipulation, as done today. In stable growth you can tweak up taxes as long as long you control spending, And to encourage investment you need to reduce taxes, and reduce spending accordingly. Fiscal policy is one lever, monetary policy (adjusting interest rates) are another. Optimally, you leave fiscal policy alone and tweak with monetary policy. Right now we have children playing games - they seem to have no idea what they are doing. You can't keep jerking around the drivers (business and consumers) and expect them to act as if nothing is happening - they simply stop, or act in their own best interest.

    I find it amazing that it appears we are making the same mistakes that were made in the past.
    7 Jun 2010, 11:06 PM Reply Like
  • Tax cuts do not create deficits. If they did, than the opposite would be true and tax increases would create surpluses, thus producing mountains of surpluses in Europe over the past half century, an economic region that has had steady tax increases during this period.

    Deficits are created by spending more than you bring in. It is the increase in the federal government and the programs/policies it administers that causes ballooning deficits.

    And please would some of you stop talking about how Clinton righted the ship because of his management of tax policy. A few things happened during Clinton's 8 years and none of them, even the great expansion of the Chinese economy, was as ground-breaking and impactful as the introduction of the INTERNET.

    Doesn't anyone remember companies like PETS.COM that were worth $100 million dollars virtually overnight even though they didn't have any earnings and narily a business model to look too? Don't you think the billions and billions of wealth that was created by the introduction of the internet helped Clinton's economy out just a little?

    You take away the internet being introduced under Clinton and shift it to Bush II, you put the accounting scandals of Enron, WorldCom and their ilk at the beginning of Clinton and not the end/start of Bush II, you put 9/11 and homeland security impacts/costs on Clinton and not Bush, and you have a completely different situation.

    Finally, does anyone notice how the Chinese economy has flourished since the government became less involved in economic planning and influence?

    When my wife was a child and a citizen of China, she didn't even have a family washroom - no private shower, toilet etc. She had to shower at her mother's work and use the facilities outside of their home. She didn't have a fridge, a television, car, nor had she even consumed a simple can of soda. The first time she drank 7up, she thought it was the best thing she had tasted in her life. My wife's family couldn't afford air-conditioning, heat in the winter or decent cuts of meat. And all this, despite the fact that her mom held a high level management position within a large organzation in the biggest city - Shanghai. They weren't peasents tending to farm land and driving Ox.

    Now, after the great expansion that took off in the 90's and has continued today, her family's life and so many others is 180 degrees different from the past.

    How can anyone with an ounce of common sense and honesty, look at China's growth and success, which is directly a result of a more free marketplace with less government, and then turn around in the same breath and claim that higher taxes and more government involvement (which comes from higher taxes) is something that we should strive for because it supposedly worked for Clinton? Tell me how? This isn't the huffington post ladies and gentlemen, this is SA!!! I expect better from some members here.
    7 Jun 2010, 11:14 PM Reply Like
  • Inspiring story--- but a Hollywood version. Things don't happen in a vacuum. If the West was not arbitraging cheap labor, China would not have prospered. If the Chinese government hadn't decided to open up the labor arbitrage business to the West, China would not have prospered. What will happen in ten years when the "one child" policy hits the Chinese labor force? The labor advantage will disappear, and become an economic problem, rather than an advantage. All the free market forces in the world won't bring back that advantage. In fact it will kill it. The Chinese government protects Chinese companies from competition from the "free market". Government granted monopolies whether British, American, European or Chinese can't be counted as free market benefits. Government and industry work best together. Like a golf swing, you hit the ball better with a balance of right and left side forces. The Chinese need to focus on developing their domestic market and weaning themselves from cheap exports.
    8 Jun 2010, 08:31 AM Reply Like
  • My wife's story has nothing to do with hollywood.
    8 Jun 2010, 08:55 AM Reply Like
  • Your interpretation as a tale of the benefits of free market forces is Hollywood>
    8 Jun 2010, 08:56 AM Reply Like
  • amazing to see liberals giving advice - the same people who voted for obama LOL
    7 Jun 2010, 09:46 PM Reply Like
  • Is this guy the one who bet against Schiff? Why didn't he write this piece one or two months ago? Today S&P broke Feb. low and he came up with this article. I'd say at least he is a very lousy timer.

    To me, Art has zero credibility.
    7 Jun 2010, 11:13 PM Reply Like
  • Capitulation is required. The debt is such that recovery is impossible without a capitulation of the economy or the currency. Total liability per person (including unfunded liabilities) is on the order of $680k. Deflation would actually hasten the inevitable. Inflatiion would prolong it. We are all adults here lets get with reality please.
    7 Jun 2010, 11:38 PM Reply Like
  • Capitualation is required? Total liabilities per person is on the $680K. Ok. Yet income per person in a $14 trillion economy is $35.8 million.
    7 Jun 2010, 11:59 PM Reply Like
  • in 1 $14T economy income is NOT $35m.... $14 trillion is not income but includes things like $60T of CDS trading and other such useless things...
    14 Jun 2010, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • "...profits reflect a production and income shift away from 2011..."

    This suggests that producers somehow control demand, as in, "taxes are going up next year so let's build (production) and sell (income) more units now instead of next year".

    How do you create current buyers for your product based on future taxes?
    7 Jun 2010, 11:49 PM Reply Like
  • Good question, now add this one.

    How do you compete in a "world" market when your competitors DON'T HAVE the same taxes and mandates?

    Buyers? We can't even buy the raw materials at the price China sells them to our buyers.
    15 Jun 2010, 11:43 AM Reply Like
Other date
DJIA (DIA) S&P 500 (SPY)