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  • Friday, September 3, 2010, 6:15 PM The "equity cult" is dead, proclaims Citi's Robert Buckland, and it will mean trillions in outflows from stocks - a reduction in equity holdings to ~20% of total assets, implying a further $1.9T reduction in equity weightings from U.S. private sector pension funds alone. Brace yourself for "considerable institutional selling to come."
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  • Through out history how many times have people predicted the end of equities? To me this is a buy signal. I remember in the 90's people asking why would you own a bond when you could buy stocks and make 20% a year.
    3 Sep 2010, 06:45 PM Reply Like
  • Exactly. One of the most reassuring proclamations an equity investor could hope to receive.
    3 Sep 2010, 06:51 PM Reply Like
  • Wow Tack, at least your consistent - if nothing else. Everything that doesn't support your perma-bull view is a perfect contrarian indicator for you! Must be simple in your black-n-white world.
    3 Sep 2010, 08:05 PM Reply Like
  • Tack: you seen to be more interested in sentiment than you say.
    3 Sep 2010, 08:12 PM Reply Like
  • Harry:

    No, I'm just observant of the folly of "pronouncements" from nobodies. Only fools, with bated breath, no doubt, follow this kind of nonsense.

    When Warren Buffet says there's no value in equity investment, then, perhaps, I'll stop to assess that, and even then, I'll ask if there's some self serving incentive for such a statement. meanwhile, I stick to my own strategy, which keeps making me money.
    3 Sep 2010, 10:17 PM Reply Like
  • Tack. Yes. Always good news. These types of announcement mean that expected returns are going to be at or above the long run average.

    think about it for a split second

    why be bullish? because if you pick 100 stocks - at most 10 will go to zero and maybe 30 will be stagnant but the rest will move up over time. that is why the S&P is 1100 now vs. 10 about 100 years ago. this equation works at any point in time but at some times works much better which leads me to point 2

    you can only get good returns if you buy when things look bad. when everyone loves stocks you are guaranteed low future returns. why? because when stuff is bid up the risk premium is low - when stuff is unloved or cheap the risk premium is there to compensate. a lot of you believe stocks are overvalued here - you are mistaken - what is happening is that you limbic system is telling you to be afraid and to fear more pain at precisely the time when your cortex is screaming 8% earnings yield, zero inflation, low rates, global growth, moderate US growth - how can you not buy - but you cannot - your are frozen in place and the risk premium goes up for people like me who have the means and the inclination to go all in on equities. I am now down to 10% bonds and back into margin. My buying was done at 1075 on the S&P. I may fill up the corners with a little STD and TEF if I can snaffle some on pulbacks and I am looking to add some OCN if it dips to my target.

    one last piece of advice. check your stocks and holdings infrequently. try once every 6 months maybe oncce per year if you are brave. it will help you to manage the fear. you can make money if you allow yourself to win.

    good luck folks but remember the battle between your cortex and your limbic system and take note of what is going inside your skulls as well as in the market.


    E
    6 Sep 2010, 07:08 PM Reply Like
  • How many?

    In any case, the fact (not an opinion) is that most advisers and professionals still recommend/have equity allocations of more than 50% of liquid wealth REGARDLESS of age (i.e. even for retirees).

    That is unheard of in the History of the world before 1985 USA.
    3 Sep 2010, 08:11 PM Reply Like
  • Over $50 billion in outflows this year, 3rd week of August $2.4 billion, last week $4.7 billion - weekly doubling within 5 trading days! The small retail investor is voting with their feet and wallets! Exits may become quite crowded! Fill your boots with cheap equities - question is; will they be worth anything when the smoke clears? Step right up. You take your chances.
    3 Sep 2010, 07:18 PM Reply Like
  • I wonder where this guy has been for the last almost three years, which is how long individuals have been bailing out of equities. Individual investors got hammered twice in a decade, and once in real estate. It shouldn't be a surprise that they buy treasuries. They aren't buying them for a trade, by the way.
    3 Sep 2010, 07:52 PM Reply Like
  • He was probably waiting to see if it were a long term or short term trend.
    3 Sep 2010, 08:06 PM Reply Like
  • I find this interesting coming from "Citi". I believe in the equities outflow situation (its been happening for some time now), however, Citi must be gold or treasury heavy.
    3 Sep 2010, 08:27 PM Reply Like
  • Do these guys really believe this or are they just lying because of an ulterior motive?

    M&A activity may increase as well as share buybacks on Wall Street - that improve stock prices. Are institutions really going to sit on cash or feeble yield Treasuries? For how long? How about more companies paying dividends? And more yield?

    You've got some demographic problems with investment but that isn't bottomless. And specialists may not go along with dropping all prices everywhere (Thank you Richard Ney)

    Eighthman
    3 Sep 2010, 08:36 PM Reply Like
  • Go 50/50.
    I means 50 equities/50bonds.
    And 50us/50non us
    Give space to precious minerals equities and oil equities.
    Don't overweight emerging.
    Australia and Canada are better.
    Stay long in bonds and short in equities.
    Be opportunistic and cynic
    Equities are commodities-like,i.e.p... of paper
    You aren't a shareholder,just a paperholder.
    Equities must be considered exactly like bonds
    And take it easy,don't buy snakeoil.
    3 Sep 2010, 08:37 PM Reply Like
  • Maybe I'm too young (30) to have seen the previous recession bottoms but it seems to me that, in each previous recession, the money was off but the fundamentals were still sound. This time, I fear, the fundamentals are eroding away because of all the manufacturing that is being outsourced.

    If there is a constant money leak from a system, in this case leaking to the manufacturing powers (Asian countries), is it truly possible to regain our economic strength in the world?

    From a birds eye view of economic theories, (specifically Keynesian) it may be possible to sustain a local economy by everyone giving everyone else manicures unless the materials are being sourced from outside the local area.
    3 Sep 2010, 09:08 PM Reply Like
  • People your age have been avoiding the market by far. They've seen two market crashes and a real estate crash. Now they're told take whatever extra money you get at your Job (which is hard to come by) stuff it into stocks again and hold it there.

    How can experts say the market will go up in 20 years? They can't even predict the next day!

    And yes we destroyed our manufacturing base that made this country what it was.
    4 Sep 2010, 05:24 PM Reply Like
  • To Whom It May Apply:

    Hey,I thought the "cw" amongst the cynics was that the Big Banks and Goldman always told you the opposite of reality, so they could buy low or sell high.

    What happened? You mean, if a Citi guy says something that supports the pessimistic mantra, then, it has veracity; it's only suspect if it's bullish?

    Does this mean equities are a buy or a sell, guys?
    3 Sep 2010, 10:22 PM Reply Like
  • I'll start by saying, I don't know the answer. I do have a few relevant observations. The small investor, after being pummeled by the wild equity market swings of the last three years is gun shy and is likely to remain so for some time. Second, the pummeling of the last three years has Baby Boomers worried about their ability to fund their retirement. I know that 2.5% bond yields are not anything to write home about but the "relative" certainty of that versus the equity market is weighing on their decisions. Finally, the next two generations behind the Boomers are not savers and lag in investing interest. These factors, in my mind, lend a modicum of credence to this postulation.
    4 Sep 2010, 06:08 AM Reply Like
  • It is definitively true that more Americans are more wary of the stock market which will in turn almost certainly ensure that the stock market is not the next bubble ---> the extreme upside in stocks is limited. However, that does not mean that stocks can't climb slowly with intermittent sharp selloffs over several years. In 5-10 years when the market is higher but has also had many mini-bear markets and the retail investor gets interested again then it will be time to scale out of stocks and into bonds.
    3 Sep 2010, 10:53 PM Reply Like
  • Depends on what you think will happen. As the Citi report stated: last 10 years of equity returned 6% in total vs. 100+% in bonds. If you want to take that risk then OK. Just remember Japanese equities are still down 75% over the last 20 years, so it can and just might happen to US equities as well.

    Many will just wait until equities are ultra cheap and therefore much less risk. Who knows when it will happen, but it likely will happen. If S&P gets back down to 600-800 levels, then it will be worth taking a look at, but not until then unless one somehow thinks they can out-trade the prop desks, HFT'ers, and algo traders all getting free Fed money.
    3 Sep 2010, 11:52 PM Reply Like
  • You know, they probably said the same things about equity in 1997.
    4 Sep 2010, 06:43 AM Reply Like
  • I hope he's right, then all my cash that Ive been sitting on will go back in (around SP 800 maybe?) I dont agree with the death of equities nonsense, but I know too many pros that have their personal dough in all cash, waiting for this type of scenario to play out.....if we dont get bush tax cut extensions we could see a big flush at year end.
    3 Sep 2010, 10:55 PM Reply Like
  • As a footnote in the past two weeks, I've liquidated nearly all of my exposure to Govt bonds. I haven't invested that money in stocks but rather brokerage CDs and in cash. I see as much risk to bonds with less upside potential than I see with the stock market.
    3 Sep 2010, 10:56 PM Reply Like
  • The cult is badly damaged. The cult was the 'right hand man' of the American Dream. The equity cult is rebuilt during the Material Edenic experience in American history: 1992-2001; 1956-1965; 1920-1929; 1884-1893; 1848-1857; 1812-1821; 1776-1785....

    These are the times of the cult of unopposed economic expansion -- the Spring-Summer seasons.

    Buckland -- which is an interesting name by the way -- doesn't say that Wall Street is dead or that stocks are finished...just that the cult is dead (read "American Psycho" to get a true picture of the cult at its apex). He says prepare for major contractions from the extremes we've assumed would be permanent.

    2010-2019 has prototype (Material Hades -Autumn-Winter Season) time periods: 1974- 1983; 1938-1947; 1902-1911; 1866-1875; 1830-1839; 1794-1803; 1758-1767....these are time periods where nothing much of anything in material existence goes well. It's a time of karmic payback for the Spring-Summer period when the cult was built, when hubris ran the world, and when a lot of 'sins' against the balance were committed.
    4 Sep 2010, 12:19 AM Reply Like
  • In all those time periods, if you bought strong dividend achievers during the crashes, you would have made out like a bandit in over the long haul.
    4 Sep 2010, 12:44 AM Reply Like
  • That's true -- dividend stocks or gold. Gold does very well during the Night Cycles. Sell gold in 2019 and don't come back until 2038.
    5 Sep 2010, 12:57 AM Reply Like
  • Hopefully more outflows occur. I would love to get higher yields on stocks (like VZ, T, PG, JNJ, XOM, CVX, DOW, RDS.A) when the price is brought down.

    Especially when savings accounts are barely paying 1 percent, these outflow are good news for those of us who have cash ready to put to work.
    4 Sep 2010, 12:43 AM Reply Like
  • Equities = roulette wheel, worst odds in the house.
    4 Sep 2010, 02:47 AM Reply Like
  • See "balois" below thumb downers.

    I realize I am attacking a quasi-religion by equating equities to a roulette wheel, but try to look beyond the horizon; the world may very well NOT be flat - and equities may simply have become a vehicle for legal theft from those who can least afford it.

    The church did not want it's world view questioned because it debased their power, influence, and income.

    Do you believe in equities in a free market that is unfettered by corruption and provides capital for companies that create jobs and build the nation - or are you simply selling indulgences?
    4 Sep 2010, 01:14 PM Reply Like
  • What in the hell have you been doing? I'd like to think that this is nothing more than a thoughtful provocation for discussion purposes but it sounds more like you've been in the shrooms again.
    4 Sep 2010, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • Bulls at the very top are always the most sure and certain of their worthless opinions... the Citi guy is dead on... Foor or Stock? hmmm,.... most elderly cant afford to starve to death....they have pension money coming in... Love the Shiller reference... a truly great read... We will go back to pre 180-1990 valuations at cycle lows again... a matter of time... todays book values and dividends not what they used to be...
    4 Sep 2010, 02:55 AM Reply Like
  • When Pigs Die Their Squeels Burn Circles.....
    4 Sep 2010, 02:56 AM Reply Like
  • Unfortunately there may be some truth to this statement in the short term. However, investors will eventually learn that they can find good growers in the US or in emerging markets that will outperform bonds by far over the long term. A worldwide recession is an easy time to come to a flawed (and incorrect) long term conclusion. When the recession really ends, the better news will begin again.
    4 Sep 2010, 02:58 AM Reply Like
  • Around 2019.
    5 Sep 2010, 12:59 AM Reply Like
  • Why not buy farmland and grow soybeans instead? The printing of dollars makes paper stocks valued in paper money an unnatractive asset class -- take it from Jim Rogers, when there is massive printing you get massive currency devaluation -- right now all the world is awash with FIAT, so stick to stuff not stock... Sugar can never go to zero!
    4 Sep 2010, 03:02 AM Reply Like
  • The wisest comment here.
    4 Sep 2010, 11:08 AM Reply Like
  • No equity 'cult' here, dead or alive, simply disgusted how the powers there are let these reckless HFT shysters screw the retail investors, wreck the markets and hammer away at what s left of capitalism - unpunished!

    Excerpts from FT www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b23...

    „...excessive messaging traffic, the dissemination of proprietary market data catering to high-frequency traders, and order-routing inducements all may be combining in ways that cast doubts on the depth of liquidity, stability, transparency and fairness of our equity markets...“

    „...retail investors...look at this and say: ‘this whole Wall Street thing is just rigged...“

    „...HFT now accounts for 56 per cent of all equity trades in the US and 38 per cent by value in Europe. Another sign that Asia is the latest growth spot...“

    „...investors are being put off by the volatility that ...HFT can cause. NYSE volumes were the lowest last week since 2006 ... attributes in part to a loss of trust in US equity market structures. “Our business is Main Street, not Wall Street,” ...“

    Have a good day
    4 Sep 2010, 05:49 AM Reply Like
  • Bill Gross believes there is more value in stocks for the long run from this point. A well balanced portfolio in equities and carefully selected international bond funds will help the investor navigate the storms ahead.

    Ignore the doomsayers and volatility as you remain disciplined.
    Avoid extremes, manage risk, and maintain a proper asset allocation mix.

    Bill Gross is correct on this one! Good luck investing.
    4 Sep 2010, 08:56 AM Reply Like
  • Bill Gross?? The "bond king"? No chance he has a bias is there? This guy's on CNBC 10 times a day, and in D.C. pumping for more spending. That's all I need to know to make a "trust" decision.
    5 Sep 2010, 09:39 AM Reply Like
  • MG:

    What you need to know is what he does, not all the blathering on TV.

    While he promotes Treasuries and stagnation, last month his fund significantly reduced Treasuries in favor of expanded investments in mortgage debt, high yield and emerging markets. Those are all entities which perform better in recovering economies, not declining ones.

    Bill Gross aside, everybody would make far better judgments if they tuned out all the punditry and deflation/inflation hysteria mongers and focused on corporate revenues and earnings. All the remainder are prognostications, sentiments and estimated and often inaccurate government macro data. The corporate data represent the most accurate and indicative bottom line.
    5 Sep 2010, 10:23 AM Reply Like
  • In 2002, Bill Gross valued the Dow at 5000.

    It got below that in 2009 (adjusted for seven additional years of growth).

    A stock can be valued as a combination of a bond and a call option. Gross is clearly an expert on the "bond value" of the Dow.

    And sometimes option values "time decay" (disappear).
    6 Sep 2010, 12:33 PM Reply Like
  • Its why you should invest for dividends. Strong companies with good futures will pay you dividends regardless of the overall PE of the market. And it might be possible that due to all the uncertainty in the Western World that PE ratios will come down. It wasn't all that long ago that quality companies in what we now call "emerging markets" were sold for a song simply due to the perceived "political risk".

    Now look at the USA and ask yourself if you think there is "political risk". Personally I think there is - and that would justify a more conservative valuation of companies based in the USA. Not pleasant to admit that but I think its true.

    The only real catalyst I see for equities is that more and more companies are forcing employees to opt out of 401K contributions..... of course they've opted out millions just through firing them.
    4 Sep 2010, 04:17 PM Reply Like
  • The retail investor is so tapped out from losing home equity, rising debt, job losses and stock losses they won't be back anytime soon.

    In then last ten years they saw two major market crashes (when will NASDAQ ever hit it's 2000 highs again?) a credit crisis, and real estate crash. To top it off this year they saw the new flash crash bringing to light hft and seeing the system is stacked against them.

    They were fed the lies that if you invest and buy and hold, you always make money. Also buy real estate because it always goes up.

    At best we will likely go japanese. Trailing down and sidewise for decades. Their nikkei was 39000 in 1989 and where is it now? Barely 9000.
    4 Sep 2010, 05:18 PM Reply Like
  • The equity cult occured during the great bull market from 1981 to 2000. It is common to believe that we are now in a secular bear market. The doomsters think we'll revisit the 600s because for a new bull market to begin equities need to be dirt cheap i.e. there has to be a total capitulation by investors of equities. But I think the low back in march 2009 represented a total capitulation. Equities have been de-rated with a lot of stocks trading below 10x forward earnings. it's rare for stocks to trade at these valuations. When you factor in bond yields, valuations become more attractive. We now appear to be in a the latter stages of a bond cult - that worries me more than the end of the equity cult which as I say has been going on since 2000.
    6 Sep 2010, 08:27 AM Reply Like
  • Not sure we're at the END of the bond cult. The bond cult should last ANOTHER DECADE or so, by my calculation -- this is especially so as another corporate stagnation seems to be approaching, and national and municipal defaults appear on the horizon. Equities were losers from 2001-2010 and will be losers again from 2010-2019, at which time the bull energy is scheduled to make a re-appearance, bit by bit, especially from 2028-2037 (if we're all still around).
    6 Sep 2010, 12:09 PM Reply Like
  • Michael, Michael, Michael, Surely you jest! You must be doing some really fine shrooms to think anyone would take seriously the idea that it is even remotely possible to predict bull markets in the 2028-2037 time frame.
    6 Sep 2010, 07:47 PM Reply Like
  • No shroom for the last 30 years at least.

    See the logic of my predictions at
    www.hoalantrangallery....
    13 Sep 2010, 03:22 PM Reply Like
  • Michael, I don't know how well the bond cult will hold up under municipal defaults, or when California sends out IOUs instead of interest payments. I see you are from Sinclair. I grew up in Lander.
    10 Sep 2010, 11:03 PM Reply Like
  • Hendershott: I played against Lander in baseball and basketball and I'm trying to remember a very good basketball player I played against my senior year. Can't remember his name.

    Lander is really beautiful country. The Wind River Canyon drive (and area really) is one of my favorite parts of Wyoming.

    There will be ups and downs in the bond cult. Investors will shift into stocks, get scared, shift into bonds. The bond cult I'm talking about is mostly US treasuries. US treasuries will get killed if Europe doesn't fall first. I'm pretty sure Europe will fall first, and there will be another flood of money into US Treasuries. Why? Hard to say. Not enough gold in the world for everyone to have a share. Gold and silver will rocket up. That's my view.
    13 Sep 2010, 03:20 PM Reply Like
  • All the thumbs down for the "cautionary" remarks show that the equity cult is NOT dead.
    8 Sep 2010, 10:50 AM Reply Like
  • I think the thumbs down in my comments might reflect individuals concerned about keeping their place in the top ten and top twenty listings. I've seen this happening to other posters as well. Drive-by thumbing.
    9 Sep 2010, 11:40 PM Reply Like
  • When I hear terms like "leveraged enterprise software package to reintroduce vertical seemless growth" on CNBC I know the equity cult is alive and well for one last dead cat bounce... Look out below... GRaham and Dodd and I will be scooping up the leftovers...
    8 Sep 2010, 11:01 PM Reply Like
  • Well, if the cult of equity is dead then I presume the vote on privatizing social security will be no.
    18 Sep 2010, 08:57 PM Reply Like
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