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They're calling it the "DeMarco Trade," and it's nailing mortgage REITs (at least those who...

  • Tuesday, November 13, 2012, 9:48 AM ET
    They're calling it the "DeMarco Trade," and it's nailing mortgage REITs (at least those who focus on Agency paper) already stung by vanishing interest spreads. Agency MBS paper has been falling in price since the election, as Ed DeMarco's days as FHFA chief seem numbered, paving the way for principal forgiveness, "the mother of all pre-payment waves."
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  • The worry over pre-payment waves is ignoring a few facts. (1) That lending restrictions are more stringent and most people don't qualify to obtain the new low rates. (2) Homes are underwater or flat and their debt to equity ratio isn't above the 80% LTV to negate PMI which will eat up most of any savings from a refi.
    13 Nov 2012, 10:18 AM Reply Like
  • Don't want to minimize the risk of this, or, more importantly, underestimate the stupidity of the current regime. What they did to GM bondholders was criminal.

    But let's put this in perspective, folks: who and what gets "written off" under a principal forgiveness plan. First, there is no way on god's green earth that they're going to make the mbs holders take the hit on principal write-downs. Cramming something like a principal loss on a govt guaranteed (if only by implication for Fannie and Freddie) instrument would destroy the bond markets. No one would ever be able to finance another home in the US. So basically what'd you have is FNMA and Freddie (i.e. the taxpayers) eating the difference to make the bondholder whole. The net effect to the bondholder is a prepayment, not a principal loss. You, me, and the taxpayers are going to swallow the really ugly pill.

    So who'd be in line to get this kind of relief? First, it would be, by definition, people who are underwater, i.e. folks who bought in 2005-2008 who haven't already found a way to refinance. Where are those kinds of mortgages? In high coupon (probably 4.5, 5, and above), low loan balance loans. This hasn't exactly been the bread and butter slice of the market where the mortgage reits have accumulated. Some of these folks are probably in GNMAs; others are in off-the- run, higher coupon mbs stashed away by passive holders like pension funds. I'd assume mbs that's been HARPed already would be ineligible.

    Are they going to push something like this after shoving out Demarco? Probably. Is it going to destroy the mbs market, particularly recent vintage 3.5s and 4s where the mortgage reits are currently parked? Not a chance.
    13 Nov 2012, 10:18 AM Reply Like
  • Excellent observations all. And when we break it down by mREIT we find that in some cases this is simply an outright panic. AGNC for example is known to have concentrated its portfolio in low loan balance MBS. That's exactly the kind of paper that would not be affected by any kind of handout scheme. If you've already paid down your loan, you're definitely not underwater, and you would gain little from a handout even if you were to be eligible, which is unlikely. So keep selling, folks. You're just giving away money.
    13 Nov 2012, 10:47 AM Reply Like
  • I disagree with your comment on AGNC and low loan balances.
    LLBs are particularly concentrated in lower credit, and would be the most likely to be prime target for cramdown refis.

    By and large principal forgiveness will not be a big factor on many agency pools, because the loans are not strongly delinquent. On non agencies it will be a larger factor, but positive in many cases (better have a quick return of principal, albeit for a lower amount, than an extended liquidation).
    13 Nov 2012, 12:06 PM Reply Like
  • I talked to AGNC IR and they said that their holdings have already gone through HARP and therefore not eligible for the Demarco effect.
    17 Nov 2012, 09:11 PM Reply Like
  • With housing slowly recovering, there should be less interest in principal forgiveness. Reduced interest in this over time should increase. Government picking winners and losers is not popular.
    13 Nov 2012, 10:25 AM Reply Like
  • I already have my tent set up and have a good supply of canned sardines and deviled ham, so I'm ready for retirement.

    My wife told me about her friend's niece who is "squatting" in LA.

    We don't need no stinkin' mortgages.
    13 Nov 2012, 10:42 AM Reply Like
  • ....don't forget the saltines... :-)
    13 Nov 2012, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • Mortgage REITs were one of the few ways individual investors had to make a little money . To the Obama administration investment income is a sin. That will soon be gone, thanks to government meddling.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • The government does not exist for mREIT investors to make money, but to help the housing market and in-turn the economy to recover, which it is doing. Believe it or not, the world doesn't revolve around your needs. But I'm sure you'll find a more appreciative audience over at MW, where political rants thrive.
    13 Nov 2012, 12:05 PM Reply Like
  • The government exists to "help the housing market"? Can you cite the clause in our Constitution that assigns that responsibility to the government?
    13 Nov 2012, 09:53 PM Reply Like
  • A strict interpretation of the Constitution was never intended or implied by the Founding Fathers. That is historical revisionism.
    14 Nov 2012, 08:15 AM Reply Like
  • Jack the Obama admin has been very hostile to investors which happen to be anyone with a Pension of 401K or 403 set of investments. The recent sell-off began when the results came in and hasn't let up yet. That sir speaks volu7mes to the Industries leaders and the fear and trepidation looking forward and to the lack of confidence that the "Investor Class" - basically anyone noted above - has in Obama's economic wisdom and that of his appointed czars and other lackies. Redistribution of your wealth and others can be quite effectively handled by ourselves and the Trust and Probate systems already in place. We certainly don't need the "Privileged Class" in Congress writing any more laws and exempting themselves like say Obamacare. while they rifle through our retirement funds and seek new ways to tax us to death while providing free goods and services to the NON-Working Class of freeloaders. This administration has done precious little to alleviate the problems that it helped to exacerbate when he took office.

    Unfortunately a good deal of Fear and Panic have helped escalate a bad situation into a really Bad one as the short sellers have stepped in to foment distrust, worry and fan the flames of economic malaise between Congress and the WH coupled with the ever expanding reach and clawing grasp of the Federal Gov't to increase regulations and inject itself into every aspect of the Private lives of its citizens.
    14 Nov 2012, 01:07 PM Reply Like
  • You're living in a fantasy world. I'm sure if we asked all of the investors on this site they would be able to cite precious few instances where Obama has been "hostile" to them as an investor or meddled in their private lives.
    15 Nov 2012, 02:29 AM Reply Like
  • mon perhaps you'd better actually review all the regs and other legislation and executive orders signed by the Pres these past 4 years. ObamaCare gets into everyone's pocket and private lives with mandated coverage and on-line access to your digital medical records a requirement. You're not to astute right? You don't really follow politics and the law I'm assuming since your statement is so easy to refute, I imagine you were just trying a quick, shoot from the hip type of approach. Well, it didn't work. I know of no investor that hasn't lost some serious money in the last week since Obama was Re-elected. There may a a couple out there. Guys or Gals that sold the Mkt Short just before the election and good for them. But the rest of the working class investors, those with Pensions, 401Ks, 403Bs, ROTH and regular IRAs, Mutual Funds, MMs and CDs have all taken a bath as the Post Obama Market Crashed. ( & the collapse continues this AM - the 15th - from the opening bell). Tell me again how Obama and his failed policies have nothing to do with this. I really like Fictional works.
    15 Nov 2012, 09:55 AM Reply Like
  • @kingdad - are you here to repeat political propaganda or make money? Deal with the situation and take advantage of it. That is what the majority of people on SA do, rather than cry about this or that. You sound more like Rush Limbaugh than a trader! LOL
    25 Jan, 10:42 AM Reply Like
  • Just another Obama supporter bumping an old thread. How Lame of you.
    26 Jan, 08:21 AM Reply Like
  • No sir! I read these articles to gather information that helps me make money. You sir, waste everyone's time with your political "opinions". I'm out.
    26 Jan, 06:51 PM Reply Like
  • Someday you'll learn that Politics affects the Markets. until then good luck gambling!
    27 Jan, 12:54 PM Reply Like
  • The big gains in REITs are done, switching over to MORL for the huge dividend and using it as a long term bank account.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:08 AM Reply Like
  • You've gotta be kidding!
    13 Nov 2012, 12:43 PM Reply Like
  • My understanding is that MORL leverages mreits, so how are you switching? MORL is a possibility for me once this fiscal cliff can is kicked down the road and count on it, modest progress will be made. I've sold much, but not all, of my position in AGNC waiting for a big sale on stocks. For the capital appreciation side of the housing market consider ELLI. It's software is saving home buyers 4 figures in closing costs and although it's already a 3 bagger before getting on my radar (darn) it still can IMO provide larger returns than any of the home builders.
    14 Nov 2012, 07:10 AM Reply Like
  • What makes you think DeMarco is qutting? He is independent and President can't fire him.

    Also, there is no way prepayments will increase for that program, the govt will take the hit (US taxpayers)
    13 Nov 2012, 11:12 AM Reply Like
  • How can REITS keep dropping by 10% month over month. Some are way below their book value. Arent the markets getting ahead of themselves? Its hard to sell now if you are long unless you want to miss a bounce.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • IS BOOK VALUE IN DECLINE?
    13 Nov 2012, 12:01 PM Reply Like
  • Book values should be up massively due to the higher prices on agency MBS
    13 Nov 2012, 12:07 PM Reply Like
  • GEOESQ:
    Book value per share for AGNC as of Sept. 30th was around 32.5. The general trend is UP not down. The question is whether the net actual value of assetts is decreasing relative to the stock price. I'm no expert in that area but its hard to think that the narrowing of rate spreads due to QE3 can have that big of an effect. Also IMHO, the DeMarco rumor is not whats going on. Something else is going on much more sinister.
    See http://bit.ly/UmxGBF
    13 Nov 2012, 12:11 PM Reply Like
  • He's an appointee--i.e. he can be fired or forced out. And he's been a major thorn in the administration's side. I'd lay good money he's gone come Jan. 1.

    Principal reduction=write-off=pr... This is no diff than when a mortgage goes to foreclosure. Fannie and Freddie make the bondholder whole, but minus the premium. It's exactly the same problem as that posed by refinances, i.e. you get paid back at par.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:50 AM Reply Like
  • After all is said and done, more is said THEN done. Hang tight on NLY
    13 Nov 2012, 12:00 PM Reply Like
  • DeMarco is required to follow the rules and policies as set by Congress. A replacement would be able to do no different. Contact your congressman!
    13 Nov 2012, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • Isn't that a problem with the current administration - the unwillingness to abide by the laws?
    15 Nov 2012, 01:55 PM Reply Like
  • Painful to watch, but I think for those who are multi-year longs, this will probably be a good adding/buying opportunity.
    13 Nov 2012, 12:48 PM Reply Like
  • so since MREITS are levered, let's say a doomsday scenario of 40% of agency portfolio getting prepaid back at par, if the companies weren't levered this would amount to 7 - 9% decline in bookvalue * 0.4 (40%) = 3.2% down in total bookvalue. But they are levered so I wonder just how big the bookvalue change would be.. levered at 8 times would mean 8 * 8 * 0.4 = -25.6% in bookvalue? This is a lot of assumptions and I'm not even sure if the leverage would multiply the problem like this or not.
    13 Nov 2012, 12:53 PM Reply Like
  • The more direct way to see the impact of faster prepayments (which come with lower rates) is to look at the coupon stack. For example 4% MBS prepay faster than 3.5s, and 4.5s prepay faster than 4s. The difference is due to the fact they have more of an incentive. So as a good proxy, looking at 4s today would tell you how 3.5s would behave in an environment where mortgage rates are 50bps lower (leading to faster prepays of course, but also to a lower discounting rate).
    Right now we have roughly on FNMAs:
    3s -- 105
    3.5s -- 106.5
    4s -- 107
    4.5s -- 107.5

    You cannot separate the faster prepays from the lower rate environment, both being consequences of the Fed's action. Accounting for both, prices are *up*

    More details here http://seekingalpha.co...
    13 Nov 2012, 01:36 PM Reply Like
  • Long but maybe not for long- today, from high AGNC down over 21%, AMTG almost -18%, MTGE almost -15%, etc for most others. Book value and dividends are up- whoohoo, not sure I'm consoled.
    Also long TWO & KCAP.
    13 Nov 2012, 01:24 PM Reply Like
  • I know the real reason MREITS are down today. Its because MBS is selling off. See stock symbol MBB for more information. The fed said it would do QE3 on september 13th.. Look at how MBS prices shot up following that. Now they are trading BELOW that point. MBS prices are dropping like a rock. Book values are plummeting. Thats why MREITS are down. Spreads are wider, which means more dividend sustainability though.
    13 Nov 2012, 04:01 PM Reply Like
  • Prepayments (CPR) probably is down further as well.
    13 Nov 2012, 04:02 PM Reply Like
  • At least this thread has some well thought out and reasoned presentations unlike some of the other panic driven posts.
    14 Nov 2012, 01:11 PM Reply Like
  • Takeaways from Gary’s presentation: (AGNC's TODAY)

    QE3 turning out as we described in Q1, but a very manageable environment if you have the right positions. You can design a portfolio that will continue to perform well despite the challenges of QE3.

    Menendez-Boxer Bill – as written, only 3% of our portfolio is exposed in any way, shape or form to that Bill – little effect if enacted. Only affects loans originated before June 2009 ---we have little, if any exposure there.

    On Ed Demarco – has done a great job (in coordination with Obama’s HUD and Treasury departments). FHA, on its own without Demarco, came up with the same June 2009 date Ed Demarco recommended. Idiosyncratic policy risk is at an all time low.

    No change in MREIT space regarding dividends

    We try to be as agnostic around interest rates as we can be – we use our expertise to position to a range of possible scenarios.

    Repo market –we’ve seen no changes seen on the repo side. Our repo agreements have no ties to market cap or stock price – realistically, no changes in terms, nor have we any concerns.

    Stock buybacks – we use real-time looks at book value to buyback stock. It’s a way to build book value.
    14 Nov 2012, 07:55 PM Reply Like
  • Was about to link to Kain's presentation, but you make his salient points here, particularly the one about the theme of this article, Demarco.

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    15 Nov 2012, 08:49 PM Reply Like
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