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The selloff in Apple (AAPL) has reached the point of "insanely insane," says Topeka's Brain...

  • Monday, November 19, 2012, 7:50 AM ET
    The selloff in Apple (AAPL) has reached the point of "insanely insane," says Topeka's Brain White, arguably the Street's biggest bull on the stock. Uber-bull or not, maybe he's got a point. Those selling Apple at a sub-10 PE while holding onto or buying Company X - with no earnings growth, selling at a 20 PE, but yielding 5% - may look back one day and wonder what they were thinking.
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This news story has 55 comments:

  • Apple remains a huge bubble. At $500bn they have to earn $50bn EACH OF THE NEXT 10 years for investors just to break even (that $100bn cash is good for the time value of money only). That is like the MARKET CAP every year of say Diageo (all of it's PERCEIVED future cashflows). Who knows what apple wiht earn 5-years from now when its stuff is all a toaster. DO THE MATH. The law of large numbers is what matters, not the naieve ratio. Elephants don't fly bro'
    19 Nov 2012, 07:54 AM Reply Like
  • Deepv - About your calculation....
    Making 50B a year for 10 yrs would actually pay us back ALL our investment AND still leave us with all our holdings.
    That's NOT breaking even. That's a very attractive deal
    Also, nobody forces anybody to hold anything for 10 years.
    Would you commit to holding MSFT, IBM, INTC, ORCL for 10 years? and people still trade these stocks
    For me once AAPL's expected cap growth levels at 15%/year, I sell.
    Certainly not now
    Selling now is panic.
    That's not what Buffet recommends "when everyone is fearful..." well everyone has been fearful for the last 8 weeks
    BTW, in recent years ir was AAPL who made others look like toasters. WHo make make AAPL look toaster?
    MSFT with it's wheel chair?
    19 Nov 2012, 08:22 AM Reply Like
  • Your logic can be applied to any company.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:07 AM Reply Like
  • Coming from someone who is both insane and short the stock....
    19 Nov 2012, 09:10 AM Reply Like
  • Ok, so they should have ~$130/share in cash going into cy13. That leaves $400 for a buyer today. They are expected to earn $50 a share, but those estimates have missed low 100% of the time in the past, and Apple's core market (tablets/smartphones) is expected to grow roughly 50% this year, with very high growth forecasted for the next three years at least. With a modest 20% growth in earnings, the payback is more like 5-6 years. And, as Pinocchio points out, 10 years is actually very, very good for a healthy company. A healthy company that is growing aggressively would be a steal.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:20 AM Reply Like
  • Pinocchio1,

    If everyone thinks that Apple is worth holding only until next year where does that leave us? Knowing that you and many others are planning to dump your AAPL next year makes me think I should be quicker than you and sell now.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:56 AM Reply Like
  • Not everyone is fearful, only the people who don't understand that the products are in high demand, the supply issues are getting resolved, and that the massive sell off was mainly from hedge funds and other big holders trying to plump up the balance sheet and avoid possibly higher taxes.
    19 Nov 2012, 10:26 AM Reply Like
  • Not exactly, because even based only on fundamentals AAPL remains a very strong stock. When you factor in other catalysts from new products and a likely dividend increase at some point, AAPL will remain attractive for years to come. It might not have the astronomical growth rate it's seen over the past few years, but it will remain a solid holding.
    19 Nov 2012, 10:30 AM Reply Like
  • It's a very risky stock too and no guarantee it will be attractive 3 year from now. Let's say next year earnings grow to USD 60 per share. The year after they decline to 50 and the year after to 45. The p/e will drop to 9 (and even to 8) and with that negative outlook the share price will be in the reagion of 350-400 per share.

    I don' wish it to happen but it's a perfectly possible scenario.

    This is no big deal for funds which hold hundreds of different companies and Apple is just 1-2% of the portfolio. But for individual investors with 10% + hodlings in Apple it could be quite a serious shock.
    19 Nov 2012, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • Heavy Apple insiders selling Apple ;-)


    Apple’s (AAPL) VP Sells Nearly $11M in Stock
    By WSP Nov 17, 2012, 7:33 AM Author's Website
    Apple’s (AAPL) newly appointed Senior VP of Hardware Engineering Dan Riccio has sold 20,726 shares, or nearly $11 million worth of company stock this week with a small part of the profits going to charity.
    According to a filing with U.S. Securities and Exchange

    Commission, Riccio sold off the shares in two separate trades on Thursday and Friday at stock prices ranging from $526 – $532 per share. Riccio also made a donation of 1000 shares, worth roughly $527K to an unspecified charitable organization.
    At Apple’s last closing 527.68 price-per-share [PPS], the total value of the stock sold was over $10.73 million.

    http://bit.ly/UR1sEN
    19 Nov 2012, 03:01 PM Reply Like
  • 20,000 Apple shares is nothing. The volume of trade today was 29.35 million shares. Yesterday it was about 45 millions if I am not mistake.

    Insiders selling doesn't mean anything too. Maybe the guy needs to buy a new house/island. But if you know that insiders are BUYING then you too should buy, buy, buy! ;-)
    19 Nov 2012, 05:42 PM Reply Like
  • The impressive growth rate of AAPL is (was) not sustainable. All bubbles pop, no exceptions, and this is current happening.
    19 Nov 2012, 08:02 AM Reply Like
  • a bubble doesn't sell for 10 times earnings.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:30 AM Reply Like
  • And when earnings drop 10 times earnings will be higher.
    19 Nov 2012, 10:59 AM Reply Like
  • 1. Which market is Apple going to "grow" into? The Samsung one?
    2. Earnings across the S&P are peaking baby. Tomorrow is smaller than today, not bigger.

    The smart money know this and are out already.
    19 Nov 2012, 08:04 AM Reply Like
  • Gartner estimated that the tablet/smartphone market would grow ~50% this year from 820 million to 1.2 billion devices in '13. The idea that this a mature market is nutty, and that is where the tremendous earnings growth will be for '13. Apple is best in breed by a large margin and they will likely grow earnings despite the skeptics and naysayers, just like they have for the last 5 years.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:14 AM Reply Like
  • Pretty much anyone can get a smartphone after market these days .. the market is saturated with devices. These are probably some of the most resold items on the history of the planet. Just like the PC market, figures are vastly over estimated in terms of what will be purchased retail. And, many people don't care about smartphones anymore. With free wifi proliferating, free call services, more telecommuting than ever before, many are happy with a cheap tablet and a set top box at home. Many tech-savvy people don't need to use a pay phone service for calls whatsoever.

    Costs are coming down significantly, in some cases to zero, for an always-connected all digital lifestyle.

    Consumers can get far more now for so much less, and their gadget time is a finite resource that is quickly being consumed.

    Sorry, while mobile and tablet apps are here to stay, this isn't a growth story anymore in terms of hardware. When people "plan to buy smartphone" in the next 18 months, that will probably be on craigslist.

    Or they'll just buy a used tablet and use skype or google chat. $0 in revenue for the manufacturers and similarly $0 for the carriers.
    19 Nov 2012, 11:14 AM Reply Like
  • Michael, you could talk yourself into a flat earth with that kind of reasoning! Look, it took 30+ years for the PC market to grow to 380 million devices per year. The smartphone/tablet market is projected to grow more than that this year alone--from ~800 million to 1.2 billion! Of course Apple isn't going to get all of the sales, but they will get plenty! Just look at the market share from the major US carriers. Of all smartphones, ATT sold almost 80% iPhones last qtr--90% of which was without the benefit of the LTE5. Apple sold 3 million iPads in three days! The trend is gaining steam, not losing it. The market's stupidity is the investor's gain.
    19 Nov 2012, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • margins are what matters. not unit growth. smartphone penetration will be over 50% next year and growth for the industry will slow. the 2nd derivative is what kills the stock. Jobs wouldnt have screwed up Maps. this is a different company now
    19 Nov 2012, 12:32 PM Reply Like
  • Lots of products aren't even made anymore because they've been replaced. I'm not saying that's happening anytime soon, but between the inception and the end of a product there is an inevitable life cycle.

    Often times the peak in a stock price precedes a downturn - in the company, or in the economy. Things seem the most exciting and rosy numbers get batted around the most at the peak. I think a lot of people have seen this with AAPL stock and its products. They'll continue to be a profitable company, but their days as a leader and high flying stock are over.

    The market decided this, not me!
    19 Nov 2012, 04:07 PM Reply Like
  • I think the market decided, but it is wrong...again! ~$40 in one day tells you some sobriety hit, but this is exactly what happened twelve months ago. Apple just had the 4S and iPad 2, and people were saying that Apple's innovation days were gone along with Jobs. The stock bottomed in Nov, and then went parabolic over the next 12 weeks. The difference is that they have much more innovative new products this year: IP5, the biggest jump in innovation of any iPhone generation, the 4th gen iPad, the mini, along with a revamped lineup of Macs. I expect $1000 or close to it in 2013.
    19 Nov 2012, 07:35 PM Reply Like
  • Something like 10% of hedge fund money was in AAPL and it seems that's all migrating elsewhere. I don't expect to see 700+ for a prolonged period. That's not say I don't think it oversold but the size of positions in portfolios that AAPL used to have seems to be changing.
    19 Nov 2012, 08:19 AM Reply Like
  • the market is so funny...aapl demise was figured out supposedly by mr. market in 45 days time????... its so oversold and nothing has changed....
    19 Nov 2012, 08:56 AM Reply Like
  • "Insanely insane" sounds insane to me.
    19 Nov 2012, 08:58 AM Reply Like
  • Stocks with large capital gains are getting sold off, to a large extent, because those who have held them fear a higher capital gains tax next year. Simple-minded? Yes. True? Yes.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:02 AM Reply Like
  • This is on point. Apple bulls have been loading up on January options creating a void on the buy side of the underlying security. Once we see January earnings the stock will be in the area of $750. The company's a money machine that is ridiculously undervalued. The sell-off has been an illusion because of the option imbalance and the run up over the next few months will be impressive.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:04 AM Reply Like
  • At the end of the day its all about cash and no company is generating cash as well as Apple.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:04 AM Reply Like
  • Many good points, but how much of current sell off is driven by investors trying to lock in profit in anticipation of increasing cap gains tax rate in 2013? Is the expectation of increasing tax rate creating a perfect storm with soft fundamentals resulting in a buying opportunity?
    19 Nov 2012, 09:09 AM Reply Like
  • The thundering herd is all in today. Everything is fine. No worries.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:15 AM Reply Like
  • At the about the same time last year, AAPL sold off 14% from its peak. It then went on a parabolic curve, going from 363 to 636 in a space of four months. We're about to see the same thing happen again over the next few month, after the current market sell-off is finished.

    By this time next year, AAPL will again fall down to earth and all the anti-AAPL bears will wake up from their hibernation to pronounce the death of AAPL.

    Again, the news of AAPL's demise is a bit exaggerated.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:58 AM Reply Like
  • If one watches the daily, weekly, and monthly prices of stocks....they see that there can be speculation effecting prices, not fundamentals or realities. When prices move sharply on sentiment, they can also move back very easily on the opposite sentiment.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:59 AM Reply Like
  • Apple on fire today. The pullback was largely orchestrated for a reload to commence on Black Friday. We're a few days early, but let the fun begin. Shorts running for cover and option writers looking to get the stock while it's still low enough. Never any issues w/ Apple. Stores jammed.

    Lot of tomfoolery....
    19 Nov 2012, 10:03 AM Reply Like
  • A single gap up day in a downtrend. This stock has been on a sharp trajectory into the ground and it still is until the trend changes. Right now Apple is a proxy for market sentiment regarding the tax avalanche coming in a few months.
    19 Nov 2012, 10:57 AM Reply Like
  • Downtrend expired on Friday. Stock has been on an up trajectory for 11 years. Last 6 weeks an inevitable correction. Stock on way to $750 post-January earnings. Apple's enormous sales this quarter not to be ignored and the supply chain issues have been resolved. Slingshot in full effect. Parties over for the shorts and they're bailing. Sharp one day recover, over $554 as I write this, up $50 from its bottom on Friday. That's some single day gap up, 10%. Look out above. Company firing on all cylinders w/ market domination in 4 categories. Apple stores packed like sardines.
    19 Nov 2012, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • In all seriousness, the market had a reaction to the non-news friday about the fiscal cliff. AAPL bounced the same exact minute in the morning, for anyone who was paying attention. You have a short covering gap and short term traders pushing the bounce upwards to scalp some profits of all of these buy-the-dip "suckers" for lack of a better word. Apple bulls may be full of adrenaline today buy I think most traders look at this action as very typical. It's best not to get taken in. Looking at the prior 9 months a lot of AAPL bulls were created that got over-invested and could not accept their entire investment was at a loss. Hence, they hung on and even added on the down. This is the pattern of a bear market.
    19 Nov 2012, 12:34 PM Reply Like
  • Stick w/ your theory and all the best.
    19 Nov 2012, 12:54 PM Reply Like
  • ballinnumberguy,

    So I've got to wondering, why are we trying to help them? Just buy. We should probably be encouraging their nay-saying.

    I don't quite understand why so many people who are neither short nor long are here, and why they care so much.
    19 Nov 2012, 04:02 PM Reply Like
  • Think of the Yankees or the Steelers, they win, consistently. There are people who don't like winners or they are bitter somehow. AAPL continues to be a winner. My guess is that these naysayers either cannot afford products, didn't buy AAPL when it was dirt-cheap, hate Steve Jobs, etc. and now are squawking about it. They come in here to commiserate but it's all fluff, no basis. You know, it's like the chronic complainer or talker at the office, you smile but eventually you gotta tune them out, but definitely don't encourage. Engagement is futile.

    @Ballin, good points.
    24 Nov 2012, 11:42 AM Reply Like
  • - MSFT in late 1999/2000
    - CSCO in 2000/2001
    - RIMM in 2008/2009
    - AAPL in ... ?

    Get FB while it's cheap. The founding CEO has a good 30 years left in him and is nowhere near his own personal peak.

    Common financial phrase: "past performance is not indicative of future results."
    19 Nov 2012, 10:26 AM Reply Like
  • And by the same token, past examples are not indicative of future events.
    19 Nov 2012, 11:03 AM Reply Like
  • just a quick comment/question...

    the 128 B (not 100 B as first commenter said) cash hoarde seems to be very important to me - and while it is constantly referred to in articles and comments, the projected cash that AAPL should have on hand over the next few years seems even more important. A year ago, everyone was agog at 75B or so in cash... then 100, now 128, where 6-12 months from now? even assuming shrinking margins and slowing rev growth, this number will not stop growing for what, 2-3 years ?

    conservative 12-15% rev growth, 2% div, healthy margins and a global ecosystem w/several hundred mllion loyal and happy user base - plus all that cash...at a high single digit forward P/E

    Sorry to oversimplify (yeah, margin compression etc.) but the bear case seems pretty weak looking at these figures.

    so the question - reasonable guess as to cash on hand 12 months out? 18-24? 200B within sight.. Apple w/200 b in cash and a $ 750 px now seems reasonable...
    19 Nov 2012, 11:50 AM Reply Like
  • I am up 3% today on apple with 30,000 put in this am. Got in a little late but just booked a 900 dollar gain. Looking for it to go down tomorrow.
    19 Nov 2012, 11:57 AM Reply Like
  • Having trouble understanding your comment but if you're using 30,000USD to only book a 900 profit is like playing Russian Roulette.

    I don't exit options unless I've made 75% or I've lost 40%. A single intraday reversal would destroy your position.

    Statistically, you're playing a losing game.
    19 Nov 2012, 12:15 PM Reply Like
  • the e is wrong on the 10x pe. ppl are overestimating margins in the out years and underestimating TAM currently. cash is never a reason to own a company like this. cash should be invested in productive assets. Steve Jobs was everything to this company and you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise. Just look at JCP.
    19 Nov 2012, 12:15 PM Reply Like
  • *sigh* Please elaborate on how Steve Jobs, alive, would have you think differently about Apple's future.

    and no, one does not own a company for the cash on hand, but really, a potentially 150-200 billion treasure chest doesn't impress you ? Would you rather they invest in a few startups just to get it off their hands or perhaps go out an float some Apple bonds to have a more traditional balance sheet?
    19 Nov 2012, 12:33 PM Reply Like
  • i dont know what they should do with it and neither do they. thats the problem. Jobs wouldn't have screwed up the maps thing. He was the visionary. his ppl are not impressive. are you aware of the JCP story? are you aware of what happened to Apple the fist time he left? are you aware of what they have in the pipeline to sustain this epic growth they have exhibited? are you aware that the low end of the smartphone market is where ALL the growth is?
    19 Nov 2012, 12:39 PM Reply Like
  • Cash on hand is a meaningless metric unless there is an intent to distribute or become a steady dividend payer. Becoming a steady dividend payer is the death knell for a "growth company" at least perception wise. Appl growth rate and share price will both moderate go forward, the fat margins in smartphones and tablets are not sustainable. They could always invent the next hot consumer product in which case all bets are off but tablets and smartphones are not going to carry aapl to 1000.
    19 Nov 2012, 12:54 PM Reply Like
  • They should do what they've been doing, investing in Capex, paying out a small dividend, and sitting on the rest. Like it or not, cash does change the numbers related to valuation. business 101.

    and as far as the cult of Jobs - he was visionary enough to build a sustainable organization. You make him out to have had super-powers or some preternatural ability to run a massive organization all by himself. Jony Ivy, and yes, Tim Cook, et al are human beings, like Steve Jobs was -very smart, and very focused humans that tackle the questions bandied about on this site about the next phase and margin compression etc etc 24/7. They'll make mistakes - just like Jobs did, but really, its been a year since his death, the most successful year, arguably, in corporate history - and if all you've got is the maps issue, sorry, not buying it. (and JCP / Johnson? not sure the point, they let a senior guy go - at least he didn't go over to MSFT to run their stores...)

    and finally, Apple has never been about the low end of the market. Tata sells alot of cheap cars too, not sure Mercedes is too concerned.
    19 Nov 2012, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • if i were you. id give Jobs more credit than that. And go look up what heppened last time Jobs left. Than go check out the job that Johnson is doing at JCP.
    19 Nov 2012, 01:08 PM Reply Like
  • Obviously things are going gangbusters at JCP with stock down 50% in the last few months. Way to go Ron!

    As for Jobs, I said he was visionary, and that he was very smart. Fine, he was very, very smart.

    Thanks for the advice on checking up on history that I'm already aware of - just not sure how its a straight line from Jobs not being at the company to things falling apart. Remember, he was also out of commission - maybe 50% effective - in the last year, possibly longer, while dealing wiht his cancer, so the fact is that the stellar 3 year run the company has had is most likely the result of smart decisions and great execution by the C suite guys, w/Jobs really being more of a team player than ever, and also an inspiration, which I do think is his lasting legacy. To me, that is potentially more powerful than his actual presence. If they can keep his vision alive, creating and selling simple, elegant, and innovative devices, their future looks very bright.


    I'm going to guess you have an android, but of course, that is ad hominem logic :)
    19 Nov 2012, 01:31 PM Reply Like
  • Just looking at today's activity, having never even heard of Apple, you'd want to be out of this stock or shorting it.
    19 Nov 2012, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • what planet do you live on?
    19 Nov 2012, 04:22 PM Reply Like
  • hey look. all the guys who sold apple at near $700 are now hyping the stock again.
    19 Nov 2012, 04:30 PM Reply Like
  • So much confusion about the company described above. Is it growing? Does it have a dividend? Does it have razor blades (called itunes, and app royalties, etc...)? Does it compress on it's multiples--tempering stock price advance--all yes. The unquatifiable factors are: t.v.--maybe, but eventually; how big is China for it--well... given the fact that the Chinese seem to want to emulate the US, I'd say huge--expect big things, and price advancement. Simple. Buy. My disclosure is this is the most easily traded stock I've ever encountered--last sell around 680. This is my buy point, until $740 for technical reasons.

    Dark horse: a stock split.
    19 Nov 2012, 05:45 PM Reply Like
  • For the write who commented that in 10 years you own the company I say so what : it's a toaster. It is RIMM, or NOkia whatver. How much do you want to pay for cashflows of APPL from year 10--terminal? I say at MOST $100bn today, probably less. I think it's HIGHLY likely that AAPL will be earning 1/2 what it earns today 5 years from now. All of you want to play derivative calculus based on ephemeral growth rates over 1 year periods (gambllng!) I am laying out why in the land of integral calculus this thing is NOT CHEAP AT ALL.
    19 Nov 2012, 07:12 PM Reply Like
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