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Changing your mind as the facts emerge is nice work if you can get it. New Bill Gross: "End of...

  • Tuesday, May 24, 2011, 6:15 PM ET
    Changing your mind as the facts emerge is nice work if you can get it. New Bill Gross: "End of QE2 may or may not lead to higher yields." Old Bill: Yields may "go higher, maybe even much higher" to attract buyers after QE2 ends. New Meredith Whitney: "I never said that there would be hundreds of billions" in muni defaults. Old Meredith: "This will amount to hundreds of billions of dollars’ worth of defaults."
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This news story has 38 comments:

  • They just wanted to be able to buy at lower prices?

    There was a good lunchtime read / article on marketwatch talking about Hedge fund secrets. Sell something short, tell everyone why it is going lower, scare them and make it go lower. Then buy it and tell them - now it's now going lower - it's going higher. Make money on both sides.
    24 May 2011, 06:36 PM Reply Like
  • I'll say it. Yields will go higher and munis will default. Can't say when.
    24 May 2011, 06:39 PM Reply Like
  • really...like Japan....their debt is twice as high as our vs GDP and their 10 yr is at 1%.....so much for your theory
    24 May 2011, 07:37 PM Reply Like
  • Dalsauce...what does the Japanese debt vs. GDP have to do with the muni market? Munis are state and local. The ability to repay a municipal bond is based on local taxation, not federal taxation. States do not have the ability, like Japan, to print money to fix their revenue shortfalls. If states like Wisconsin don't fix their problems they will have defaults. And you saw what the unions in Wisconsin did to thwart that effort.
    24 May 2011, 11:43 PM Reply Like
  • Its an ever-changing fluid market.
    24 May 2011, 06:48 PM Reply Like
  • Stephen Colbert lambasted Dubya for saying on Wednesday what he said Monday... no matter what happened Tuesday. It's a good thing that people adjust their opinions based on new relevant facts. That's proper scientific logical thinking.
    24 May 2011, 07:11 PM Reply Like
  • Bill knows the drill - headfakes are your only move when u run about 250 billion - hes too big for his own good at this point.

    Billy G and the gang are just now coming around to what Gundlach has been saying for quite some time
    24 May 2011, 07:18 PM Reply Like
  • I have no idea how Meredith makes money for her clients. May be using this kind of statements. SEC should investigate her. At least Bill got out of treasuries.
    24 May 2011, 07:21 PM Reply Like
  • You know, the stock market is going higher... that is, unless it goes down!
    24 May 2011, 07:50 PM Reply Like
  • If someone is asked for their opinion and they give their point of view what is the big deal? It is better than interviewing a taxi driver.

    However people can take the opposite side of the trade if they want and that is what makes a horserace.

    Bill does not get paid for his opinions he is actually running a massive portfolio and if he is wrong it will cost him. Whitney is doing more research and opinions for money.
    24 May 2011, 08:43 PM Reply Like
  • Meredith has been right about as often as a broken clock. She was not even the first to call for a Citigroup dividend cut. I think she only gets publicity because she is a woman.
    24 May 2011, 08:49 PM Reply Like
  • value:

    No, a stopped clock is right at least twice in a cycle. Meredith's only been right once.

    She's the classic example of the "blind-squirrel" axiom.
    24 May 2011, 08:59 PM Reply Like
  • She made a huge call on downgrading banks because of subprime and bad debt in 2008 and most everyone could not even grasp the concept that she could be right. As it turned out she was dead on right and everyone else was in la la land.

    We will see how she does from here but not many people make that kind of large call ever in their career.
    24 May 2011, 09:31 PM Reply Like
  • Brave lady. I respect that.
    24 May 2011, 09:52 PM Reply Like
  • There were a lot of people calling for banks to have huge subprime issues years before she even found a piece of cheese. She was just loud and called it just before it happened, not long before, but just before.

    Wow, she called the crisis in the 11th hour. Hooray for her.
    24 May 2011, 10:40 PM Reply Like
  • Looking over several of her predictions before and after, that was the only correct call she ever made.
    24 May 2011, 11:10 PM Reply Like
  • Who? And were they whispering in a dark closet?
    25 May 2011, 12:11 AM Reply Like
  • Many were laying foundations to profit from it before it hit, did you read The Big Short?

    Unfortunately, I didn't have the capital to do that but I began discussing a subprime/housing bubble back in 2004 on various websites, including Fatwallet finance forums, analystforums.com when I was taking the CFA exams among other places. When I was at one job in 2006 I discussed the need for enhanced liquidity protection beyond their plans and they implemented them. Most there were clueless as to what was coming, at what would be considered a pretty smartly run Fortune 100 business. They thought housing would never crash, lol.

    You know when I really knew we were f'd? I was working down in Orlando for a large finance company. I had to drive on Kirkman Rd. to go to work. Every morning/evening I'd drive by these disgusting HoJo hotel/motel buildings, mold dripping off them, cops continually there for various reasons (drugs...etc). They started to advertise a "new" condo development there, remodeling the old HoJo rooms to 220k condos (some cheaper, some more expensive). I laughed so hard. Had the mania reached that level, had the 0 down financing and the option arms that they tried to pitch me when looking at a 250k condo (which had been 170k 6 months prior, and was 320k 12 months later, now they are at 120k).

    That was in 2005.

    articles.orlandosentin...

    Whitney is nothing more than a Jenny-Come-Lately
    25 May 2011, 09:06 AM Reply Like
  • Pier

    I understand a lot of people were raising their eyebrows earlier but she was the first loud voice on Wall Street that I am aware of that said we are in trouble. That goes against the grain on Wall Street as good news is blasted out and bad news is hushed.

    She also started to connect the mortgage problems with specific banks and talked about contraction of credit.
    25 May 2011, 11:03 AM Reply Like
  • Dick Bove was there first, as were Mayo and Peabody. There were other analysts saying housing and all consumer credit was poised for a fall. She wasn't the first, wasn't the loudest, wasn't the most right and, in fact, has been almost all wrong afterwards.
    25 May 2011, 11:35 AM Reply Like
  • It seems like you are taking this too personally. I seen Bove and I never seen him pound the table.
    25 May 2011, 02:51 PM Reply Like
  • Not taking anything personally, just think it's a joke that people clamor for her "analysis", especially when every single one is more gloom and doom that she later retraces. She got one right, wow. What about the other 10 she got wrong?
    25 May 2011, 03:35 PM Reply Like
  • Let's see how it plays out. She could be early with her warnings because the debt load still exists and is getting heavier at the government level. Something is going to break and that could get us into a lot of trouble and she could look pretty smart again.

    However if government gets their act together then we can avoid all this mess and she will not look as smart.
    25 May 2011, 06:34 PM Reply Like
  • TVP:

    I'll be "early in my warning," too: you're going to die.

    (Call me a genius. :-) )
    25 May 2011, 07:54 PM Reply Like
  • Tack:

    Maybe you are a day trader and 5 minutes is an eternity and you are not sure what month you are in.

    Anyways I believe the next 6 to 24 months are critical so you will not have to wait long. We are headed for $17 Trillion in debt by the end of 2012 if we raise the debt ceiling. After that who knows?

    If we get an external shock or contagion from debt problems in Europe then buckle up. Subprime slime rolled along for many months so don't expect debt problems to appear and go away in one day.
    25 May 2011, 11:44 PM Reply Like
  • TVP:

    You have me 100% backwards. I am a deep-value, high-yield investor, who buys and holds, collecting substantial dividends, until the value embedded in the issues I buy is rediscovered. When prices rise and yields decline, I roll that money out to new candidates.

    So, you're worried about the next 6-24 months? What's your plan, hover in cash? Speculate in gold? What?

    It's am impossible guessing game to try to figure out exactly what will happen in months, much less a year or two. The best approach, I have found over a long period of investing, is to find out-of-favor sectors, find issues with above-average dividends, then, buy and get paid to wait. Patience is always rewarded. Handsomely.
    26 May 2011, 12:56 AM Reply Like
  • Tack

    Like your investment approach. I have moved more money into Canada and Australia. Energy stocks and fertilizer. Looking for utilities also in those countries.
    26 May 2011, 10:55 PM Reply Like
  • TVP:

    You may like my approach, but you're not emulating it. I think commodities and inflation hedges are oversubscribed, and Canada and Australia are commodity driven, nothing more. I'd definitely not find myself long those at this time.

    Looking for contrarian value, I am in banks, REITs, BDCs, convertible bonds, floating-rate bonds and even some muni ETFs (I never buy munis because I hold most funds in a tax-free trust) because Meredith Whitney so terrified the market with her absurd prognostication that muni ETF's plunged way below their NAVs, making them too attractive to pass up.
    26 May 2011, 11:06 PM Reply Like
  • Tack

    Never said I was emulating it. More than one strategy can work.

    Forgot to say I have some REITS. I am very patient on commodities as I have been buying them since 1986 when I bought Phillips Petroleum at $10.80. Mad a huge return in that investment and still going strong.
    26 May 2011, 11:27 PM Reply Like
  • TVP:

    Don't get me wrong. I like energy, in general, and have significant holdings of VNR, RDS.A, EP.PR.C and CHK.PR.D. I just think that specific Aussie and Canuck plays are vulnerable.
    26 May 2011, 11:35 PM Reply Like
  • Tack

    They are vulnerable especially if the US gets its act together and stabliizes the USD. If they don't then they will do better.

    I have roughly offsetting positions in USD and CDN and Aussie dollars in the even there is a big downswing either way.
    27 May 2011, 07:50 PM Reply Like
  • Changing your mind as facts change? Why not?

    That's better than changing your mind when facts don't change.
    24 May 2011, 09:02 PM Reply Like
  • Tomas: Michael Mayo (DB analyst at the time) actually called for the Citigroup dividend cut before Whitney.
    24 May 2011, 09:38 PM Reply Like
  • I think the real call was stating that the subprime slime was going to spread across the entire credit portfolio That was a huge call.

    The Citibank dividend calls were made after the snowball was really starting to roll but if MM made the call on the dividend cut he was in a small group.
    24 May 2011, 10:31 PM Reply Like
  • It's about time perma-bears were called out.
    24 May 2011, 09:45 PM Reply Like
  • Let's pull all the Bernanke, Geithner and CNBS "bullish contributors" lies and misquotes while we're at it. It far outweighs any bear quotes.
    24 May 2011, 10:36 PM Reply Like
  • Neither one of them will ever tell anyone in the public arena what they really think or believe. Their sincerity has become so transparently false.
    24 May 2011, 10:38 PM Reply Like
  • Whitney is a good example of someone who was right once and now is a go to quote for everything.

    Also, changing you mind is a lot different than saying you never said something. When you said that something on 60 Minutes, it's kind of hard to claim it didn't happen.
    24 May 2011, 10:44 PM Reply Like
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