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"High above the Alps, my gnome is hearing that Apple’s shares are lower because of margin...

  • Friday, January 25, 2:34 PM ET
    "High above the Alps, my gnome is hearing that Apple’s shares are lower because of margin calls," writes Doug Kass as Apple (AAPL -1.3%) falls to $444 and cedes its market cap crown for now to Exxon Mobil. The FY13 EPS consensus has fallen to $45.07 from a pre-earnings level of $48.30, but that still puts shares at 6.6x forward EPS exc. cash. The dividend yield is now at 2.4%. (yesterday)
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This news story has 53 comments:

  • And his Yen this week has been a buckin bronk.......what does that do for business with swings like that....stock market too...amazing...
    25 Jan, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • Doug is correct!
    I have proof of that .
    Many got in at $600 and above on margin accounts thinking this was going to be a big surprise Q4 to the upside, and got burned instead.
    And on top of all Mr.Cook finished the job at the conference call with his arrogant comments while the stock was dropping $5 with each phrase that came out of his mouth.
    25 Jan, 03:01 PM Reply Like
  • Kass is a self-serving moron.
    25 Jan, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • That is the kindess thing yo could have said!!
    25 Jan, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • Who is right more often than he is wrong. Check it out before demonstrating your keen insight.
    25 Jan, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • Has he covered his govt bond short yet? :)
    25 Jan, 04:32 PM Reply Like
  • Kass is ALWAYS talking his book....look at transcripts from interviews from the last couple of months. If his mouth is moving.......
    26 Jan, 02:11 PM Reply Like
  • Gee JUD,

    Really well spoken. Thanks for the keen insight.
    25 Jan, 03:26 PM Reply Like
  • Dear Dougie,
    I want to thank you in advance, if you were the one selling me
    shares @ sub-440's this AM !!
    25 Jan, 03:51 PM Reply Like
  • he is right more often than wrong........
    25 Jan, 03:52 PM Reply Like
  • Right...lol...he made a big deal of calling the bottom on Apple when is was about $535, and said he was buying......it is simple, a broken clock is right twice a day...
    26 Jan, 02:14 PM Reply Like
  • Now it is a buy...
    25 Jan, 04:11 PM Reply Like
  • I know you are smarter than to call a bottom.....

    So I will take this as a joke.
    26 Jan, 08:19 AM Reply Like
  • Of course it is NOW a buy. At $445 Apple is the most undervalued stock in the US.

    It is just amazing how it got there. Apple has done nothing wrong. In fact they have done everything right - 27% YOY growth, an extra $16bn in cash generated during the quarter (some $1,230,769,230 every week!!), now up to $137bn. Record 20-odd percent iPhone growth, 40-odd percent iPad growth, 67% growth in China, 53% market share in US for the first time.

    Jesus the market is pretty hard on this company. What do they want it to do, find a cure for cancer and solve world poverty as well?
    25 Jan, 04:22 PM Reply Like
  • Yes and world peace would be nice....
    25 Jan, 04:29 PM Reply Like
  • They could solve the world poverty problem and go a long way toward erasing cancer by innovating Tesla type technology.
    27 Jan, 06:20 AM Reply Like
  • When folks talk of cash in hand, do they refer to the number mostly in foreign banks or after repatriation? Remember it could mean a 30% less due to taxes due when repatriated. This is more for those who keep subtracting the raw number from the market cap.
    Long in 1980 Apple products (I wish I did not sell my Newton, the first iPad!) and confused if it is still a scary stock or a good buy!
    25 Jan, 04:27 PM Reply Like
  • You need to get this right, Apple have already set aside tax payments for profits made overseas and have accounted for these payments in each quarter. When they repatriate the cash, the tax payments have already been allocated out of it.
    Why is it that everyone is looking for non-existent cracks.........!!!!
    25 Jan, 05:28 PM Reply Like
  • Mortonk,

    where did you find that apple set side money for taxes ?
    25 Jan, 06:01 PM Reply Like
  • Mortonk, you have no knowledge of accounting. Why would Apple pay the tax since it has not repatriated the money back to US?

    Those cash in foreign countries is dead or waiting to be blown. How can Apple spend that much money? Buy a country?
    25 Jan, 06:33 PM Reply Like
  • If you read Apple's financial statements they have already made a provision for repatriated taxes as a tax expense. If the US allows a tax break on repatriated overseas funds Apple could record a one time tax credit of several $billion depending on the tax break offered.

    Also Apple carries about $7.8 billion in deferred sales which should be added to sales over the next 8 quarters at the rate of about $900 mln per quarter ( about $1/share).

    Apple is making less than 1% on its cash hoard due extremely low interest rates it appears rates are starting to rise and if they could only get 1.1% yield they would generate over $1.0 bln dollars (another $1+ per share). They pay a 2.2% dividend and have $8.1 bln left on their stock buy back plan. Everytime they buy stock they save the 2.2% dividend that they do not have to pay.

    Apples accounting is very conservative and it is unlikely there will be any unpleasant accounting surprises.
    25 Jan, 08:03 PM Reply Like
  • Hi prginww,

    that's accounting provision only. It does not consume any cash. So it means if the money is repatriated to US, at that moment, Apple will pay cash for the tax and remove the line in deferred tax liability.

    As for deferred sales, my guess is that Apple collected prepayment, but did not deliver the product. So when the product is delivered, the revenue is recognized, but the cash does not increase.
    26 Jan, 03:11 AM Reply Like
  • Well said Mortonk. Apple accounts for this future tax as a deferred tax liability. Lots of ignorant investors out there. No wonder the stock is tanking!
    26 Jan, 07:02 AM Reply Like
  • @Z91 and @freed0m -  When Apple calculated after-tax earnings for the Oct-Dec quarter, it declared/recorded a tax expense of 26% against TOTAL earnings, not just US earnings.  In recent years, the tax rate declared by Apple is somewhat higher than GOOG's and MSFT's.

    On the balance sheet, Apple declared a future liability. That reduced the shareholder equity, book value and amount of 'cash' holdings that get reported. This liability is included in "Other Non-Current Liabilities."  The item now exceeds $17 billion.

    "The vast majority of this item on the balance sheet is money set aside to pay US corporate income tax on foreign earnings. Apple has stated on a number of occasions they do not intend to bring foreign earned money back into the US at the current 35% tax rate. They are, however, setting money aside as if they intended to do so."
    http://seekingalpha.co...
    26 Jan, 08:39 AM Reply Like
  • Why?? ... because that's how one manipulates the stock, and especially so when a company allows the market and all its shills to control the dialogue as Apple has...
    26 Jan, 02:17 PM Reply Like
  • No, I can't imagine they would want to buy a country, there is no inherent value there..... but, they could be interested in buying themselves!!
    26 Jan, 02:19 PM Reply Like
  • Two separate issues....if Apple has a provision noted in their balance sheet for a tax liability then the cash needed to play said liability would NOT be also counted in their cash because it is a current liability.

    As for the revenue issue, my understanding is Apple holds back a certain percentage of each sale for warranty issues etc after a new product is launched because of the anticipated incremental costs pertaining to warranty matters with new items, which is why they can begin to unwind this reserve over time.
    26 Jan, 02:28 PM Reply Like
  • They could buy back shares. 100 billion $ worth...
    The offshore cash could be used as security it would only cost0.5%
    They make less than half a percent on the offshore money so just the saved 2.3% divvy would make it a good idea.

    Also the tax is set aside already in the balance sheet as a liability.
    Tax break would equal a windfall profit.
    26 Jan, 07:11 PM Reply Like
  • It hasn't paid the tax, just deducted the tax amt from Cash
    27 Jan, 06:21 AM Reply Like
  • I suppose the same could be said for the drop in gold and silver. People liquidating metals to meet AAPL margin calls or to place Super Bowl bets or to celebrate Chinese New Year.

    Most of the institutional holdings are probably untouched by the panic, which means it's the BiPolar Irrational Euphoria crowd who ran for the exits when they saw the Margin Called running for the exits.

    The next notable event will be an announcement of what they intend to do with the billions earning 0.002% in the bank. Maybe a share buy-back or dividend increase or maybe they'll decide to merge with Krispy Kreme or buy the Hostess Twinkie patents.
    25 Jan, 04:39 PM Reply Like
  • Likely,

    That was very funny !

    Be on the look out for the Twinkie 5s coming soon !
    :)
    25 Jan, 04:46 PM Reply Like
  • From Cook's comments they will be buying more equipment for their foreign suppliers/contract mfrs so they will not have the supply problems again. This money can be spent overseas without tax impact. Just think if the U.S. tax system were reformed perhaps they would spend that investment here. LOL
    25 Jan, 04:57 PM Reply Like
  • They can't spend even 5 billion doing that.
    They will make 10 + in the next quarter alone...
    137 billion? Its criminal.
    Buy back stock and heal the company!!
    26 Jan, 07:17 PM Reply Like
  • Sad that Apple management does not have enough faith in their company to bring the money back, pay the taxes and grow the company. Corporations want to be people. So pay taxes, like people, and move on. I would gladly take a million from overseas, pay $300K and put the $700K to work. This hoarding cash really becoming an over used excuse.
    25 Jan, 05:36 PM Reply Like
  • Sorry, but that may be your opinion but it is not responsible governance, period!...and the reason Apple has so much cash is because it has an over 45% return on equity on massive revenue. They simply have more cash than they can spend at the current time given what we know of their business model. That said, it doesn't mean they should waste it, especially since we don't know their strategy, I believe criticism is a bit premature.
    26 Jan, 02:35 PM Reply Like
  • They don't need the money.
    They can't spend it.
    If they buy something it risks destroying Apple.
    26 Jan, 07:19 PM Reply Like
  • Is anyone else watching the long S&P short aapl pair trade going off? Crazy...
    25 Jan, 05:49 PM Reply Like
  • Undoubtedly many got in and bought on margin but that doesn't mean they'll come rushing back. With Steve Jobs gone, performance fair but the future of product line uncertain and an arrogance which has driven long-time Apple users like me (multiples of devices including iPhone, iMac, Macbook Air, and iPad) to the Android ecosystem, the future isn't quite as "bankable."

    Incidentally, just some of the off-putting things which drove me to the Android ecosystem:

    1. Retention of closed architecture - even on iPhone 5, no battery change or bigger battery options; parts even less eco-friendly.
    2. Litigation strategy - forget the hypocrisy of Apple claiming Samsung stole its idea of a rectangle with rounded corners (which had been used in prior art by Sony) or that Apple made its money arguably by pirating the GUI developed at XeroxPARC when it introduced the Macintosh, the whole "destroy Android"/thermonuclear war and unbridled actions of counsel disgusted me.
    3. The ecosystem which I thought I needed to properly sync calendars, music, etc. - readily available in similar form through Samsung, including importing all of my data from the iPhone.
    4. New plug on iPhone - after "investing" in many devices with the formerly standard plug, I refused to be forced to upgrade. Was the new plug necessary? Not if you figure we can use the old devices once we buy a "converter." Sorry, Apple, that was one bad move - the customer will not ALWAYS blindly follow your directives.
    5. Apple Maps - a joke. Where was quality control? Google Navigator/Google Maps on Android? So fantastic that I stopped using my Garmin GPS. Only thing missing is the display of speed limit for the area of my travels.
    6. I liked my iPhones - all of the versions I've had - but I wanted a bigger screen and Apple refused to get with the program - so I went to the Samsung Galaxy Note and, months later, I wouldn't think about going back.

    As always, Apple products are pricey, closed-architecture and capitalize on the "cool" factor - but I don't need all of them - and will be looking for value first.
    25 Jan, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • Sounds like either you are trying to be more frugal or you feel shorting Apple is a better strategic more and are jumping on the trend of lets see how far we can depress the stock bandwagon.
    26 Jan, 02:39 PM Reply Like
  • The margin call theory! I like it. After all, the stock is down $75 in 48 hrs. I guess it makes sense. That's good for today's excuse du jour but what will be the reason for Monday's upcoming 10 point slide. Could it be more margin calls for those who bought at $500 or possibly something else? I can't wait to find out. In the end, the selling will cease when everyone who wants to sell or must sell has sold.
    25 Jan, 06:05 PM Reply Like
  • 137 billion earning 1 % to 2 % yearly , the downturn should represent a huge opportunity for management to boost the value of the stock by using a portion of the money for buy back . What am I missing , always ready to learn ?
    25 Jan, 06:08 PM Reply Like
  • You aren't missing anything. Buy backs have helped IBM post steady and strong EPS growth. Even with modest top line growth Apple could produce strong EPS growth by reducing the number of shares.

    Apple's reluctance to do this suggests they think they have a bit more growth in front of them. However the stock price is ridiculously low and I really think they ought to consider buying back shares now. It could crush the shorts and a sharp short covering rally could ensue.

    It will be interesting to see how Cook manages this. I don't think he will be the creative product genius that Jobs was but he can still produce value for shareholders by managing the company and the stock aggressively. Jobs didn't have to worry about stuff like this but Cook will.
    25 Jan, 06:35 PM Reply Like
  • Buying back stock is a very short sighted strategy, it will only provide more of the same. There needs to be a lower share price to broaden the potential buyers of the stock. The current universeof shareholders is too small, and it enables this constant manipulation of the stock. If Value inventors and Growth and Income investors can get into the stock this insane manipulation and volatility will wane, and sanity will return. Look at the PE ration of GE, PG, Exxon etc and their number of shares, especially when viewed against their market cap. Long term, Apple needs more shares, a lower share price and more shareholders, not less.
    26 Jan, 02:47 PM Reply Like
  • Try 0.4%
    26 Jan, 07:20 PM Reply Like
  • Supply and Demand?
    Surely you have heard of it?
    Higher earnings per share?
    More dividend per share long term.
    Long term investors will remain, stabilising the stock.
    Keep buying until it reaches $1000 or you have spent 100 billion...
    Then they can buy for 5 billion every quarter if it dips below 1000.
    26 Jan, 07:28 PM Reply Like
  • Article in WSJ suggests that many companies "foreign cash" is right here in the USA. IRS and SEC rules don't forbid it as long as the cash is still owned by the foreign subsidiary.
    25 Jan, 11:21 PM Reply Like
  • Just over a week ago, I predicted (in a private communication w/ a business partner) that AAPL would continue to drop & settle around $420. I should have made it a bet. He despises Apple & thinks it ought to be priced @ $40/share & will be bought out by IBM, HP or Dell, haha.
    26 Jan, 01:27 AM Reply Like
  • "Just over a week ago, I predicted (in a private communication ..."

    Interesting. Just a few decades ago I predicted (in a alcohol induced nap) that Enron would collapse, Bernie Madoff would become the role model for greedy p_r_icks and Lehman Brothers would be on unsuccessful life support.

    I have an amazing record of predictions published after-the-fact. Now that I've honed my talent I can assure you AAPL will have intra-day lows of $435 on a Friday in January. What can I say? It's difficult to remain modest when you're always right, haha.

    Send a certified cheque or cash for my predictions for November 2012.
    27 Jan, 03:52 AM Reply Like
  • All I can say is if it had to drop to 444 to fall into second place it sure had one hell of a lead at 705. This selloff is feeling way over done. I expect we're nearing a level where people care and I think there will be a pretty significant bounce. Up into the low 500's anyway. The chart may be broken but the compnay certainly isn't. The numbers are still quite impressive. Just not up to wall streets lofty expectations. imho
    26 Jan, 07:49 AM Reply Like
  • Why do so many people keep thinking Apple should repatriate the overseas income and pay extra taxes? It is absurd.

    Apple are an international company with two-thirds of its sales, and the majority of its future hyper-growth coming from emerging markets.

    It has all the cash it needs by a huge margin to cover US operations, R&D, dividends etc. In fact after these costs the cash in the US is growing still by over $300,000,000 each week.

    It makes huge financial sense for Apple to grow its earnings in a tax-free environment offshore.

    Apple plans to increase its stores in China over the next year from 12 to 37 (there are 260 in the US) they should use their cash to fund this and other overseas expansion.

    Cash is also king, and is one of the reasons why the Apple stock is so safe. Cash gives Apple the option to buy its future growth if required. They could even buy Samsung for cash and less than two years profits if they wished. There is no need for them to do this, they are buying patent banks, small technology companies and rolling this innovation into Apple projects in the future. Have you not read about the patents they have been filing for TV for example - this area is going to be huge for Apple, and IDC think Apple iTV is worth €50bn in the first year alone.
    26 Jan, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • After what just happened how can you say the stock is safe.
    The cash should be used to defend the stock...
    26 Jan, 07:31 PM Reply Like
  • I would not be surprised if Apple spent half a billion dollars or a billion dollars to crush all the shorts. It would be quick and very painful to many.

    Apple must be very irritated by them.

    Most of the big institutions all still have Apple as a buy or strong buy, and average price north of $700.
    26 Jan, 12:30 PM Reply Like
  • You must mean 50 billon ?

    Half a billion would do next to nothing, 5 billion would barely move the stock.
    It does not seem Tim cares about the shareholders.
    This drop does huge damage to the brand also.
    Apple is a looser company.
    It is a disgrace!
    26 Jan, 07:33 PM Reply Like
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