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  • Axion Power Concentrator 152: Sep. 19, 2012: APMarshall's Sep 2012 CEDIA Notes & Updated John Petersen Charts 231 comments
    Sep 19, 2012 10:29 AM | about stocks: AXPW

    These instablogs and the people who maintain them have no relationship whatsoever to Axion Power International. To our direct knowledge no person with a current relationship to Axion Power International other than being a shareholder participates in these instablogs.
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    Al Marshall's notes for CEDIA, September 6, 2012

    RoseWater General Update - RoseWater is focusing on Residential Hub (RH) in the US because the high-end residential market and the US are what they know best and believe will come quickest. Eventually, they will expand internationally. At the show, folks from several Asian countries visited the booth and expressed strong interest. I didn't learn much about their other initiatives except that a university research project in Ontario is expected, in the short-term, to help size future Hub devices (2kw?).

    Residential Hub Technical - Three main electronics components: Charge Controller, Inverter, and Uninterruptible Power Supply. I took photos of each with my cell phone and they are posted at the end of these notes [APH: photos replaced with links to them for various reasons]. Note that the inverter in the RH can perform that function for solar panels, eliminating about ~25% of the cost of a solar panel system.

    Multiple hubs can be linked together although most of the examples I overheard involved a single bank of electronics being paired with up to five cabinets of batteries.

    The first hub, which is the unit at the show, was custom built by Axion in New Castle (at the electrode plant not the battery plant). Future units will be built by a third party. Suppliers may change as Axion's purchasing process is still underway. I believe the unit displayed at the show has an indoor cabinet. Future units will be outdoor capable. Inferred that each Hub will have an IP address since the device can be remotely monitored and I believe controlled. I latched onto the issue (really opportunity) that Rosewater should collect data from all the hubs and use it to assess utility power quality. This information could be used to help installers sell, particularly if smaller hubs are introduced in an attempt to go down-market.

    Competition - I didn't take the time to walk the entire show and gather info on competitors. I learned a little bit from the RoseWater folks. Pricing seemed to be in the ballpark of the closest comparable products, which really aren't that comparable. Mario pointed out that the major competitors (same guys mentioned at the annual conference) are building products aimed for the mass-market that are priced like the Residential Hub, something he believes won't work for the high-end residential market. I believe the biggest differentiator is Joe Pic's understanding of this market segment and the PbC battery.

    Competitors that approach the Hub in capabilities will likely have lithium Ion batteries, but cost will limit them to only have a small number of batteries. Competitors that use lead acid can have similar storage capacity, but their units will be very short-lived if the unit provides the same level of power conditioning as the RH.

    Note, this relates to the first question I asked: How important is the PbC's strengths in making the RH a truly differentiated product? The answer was that the batteries will be frequently tapped to provide power to fill power gaps and to accept power to eliminate power spikes. Thus, the combination of the electronics and the batteries will enable the RH to provide "perfect power" and to do it for many years. The safety aspects of the PbC are also important for indoor use as is the PbC's capability to operate outdoors. Looking at in another way, LI can't be used outdoors but is a safety risk indoors.

    Another form of competition is a device which the helpful installer called a "power conditioner". This device (costs $7-10k) apparently smooths the spike in power surges but doesn't have a storage capability to fill in the valleys and otherwise create the high quality power provided by the Residential Hub.

    I am not technical at all, so hopefully the above info is a good starting point for others who are more knowledgeable.

    Selling Residential Hub - RoseWater is very concerned about making sure the Hub is profitable for the installers. It appears that RoseWater will allow, if not encourage, installers to add some sort of markup (or give discounting) on the RH to add margin even though they will also be charging for installation.

    As I mentioned yesterday, most of the installers weren't concerned about the price. I remember one case where upon being told the price, the guy just shrugged, not even bothering to say "they'll pay it", which was the reaction from most of the folks. The most skeptical installer was a guy who agreed on the merits of the Residential Hub but thought he'd need help justifying the sale. This sparked a long and productive discussion, which in the end put him at ease.

    No one believes there will be issues selling RH to the homeowner installing $500,000 in electronics. The RH will protect and extend the life of all that equipment while adding access to renewables and a generator (generators provide low quality power so it is particularly important to fully condition that power). That's a no-brainer. The open question then becomes at what total system cost does $45k+ for a Residential Hub no longer seem automatic.

    Another factor that is good news for us is the fact that these very high-end homes tend to have unique circumstances associated with them. Often they are in isolated places that tend to have unreliable and poor quality power. Mountain homes fit this. One example was a home on a hilltop in California in an area where there are a lot of wildfires. Whenever there is a fire, the utility turns off the power in the entire area, often for an extended period. Apparently, this happens quite frequently.

    One of the most interesting things I learned came from one of the installers. After visiting the booth, I asked one if he'd be willing to take a few minutes to answer some questions for me. The gentleman and his wife ended up talking with me for at least twenty minutes and shared a lot of fascinating information and viewpoints.

    One very interesting point he made that relates to this topic was that nearly 100% of the very high-end homes being constructed today include wiring in the garage to support charging an electric car. He went on to say that 50% of these homes have the charging equipment installed. It would seem that these homeowners have come to accept electric cars to an entirely different degree than has the general public. I laughed and thought of JP when I heard this. It did make me think that RoseWater ought to market to electric car owners and purchase mailing lists of these owners if possible.

    Another point by this same installer was that he thought the biggest problem selling the RH is that installers are generally electronically oriented and tend to lack expertise and may be intimidated by electrical systems. This point indirectly came up with another installer earlier in the day who told a story about another installer who caused a great deal of damage to the electronics in a house when he tried to test a generator that he had incorrectly connected.

    As I mentioned earlier, I don't have any information to share on sales or how many sales RoseWater is expecting to make. They did share with me a number that may be a good starting point when it comes to the size of the potential market. I was told that roughly 4,000 high-end home electronic control systems like the ones sold by Crestron are sold in the U.S. each year (more on Crestron below). I believe that number is for systems valued at $100k or more (presumably doesn't include dealer installation and configuration costs of an additional 25% to 50%).

    By my math, each 1% share of that market earned by RoseWater would likely yield about $1m for Axion, with half of that being PbC related and the other half a wag on Axion's pricing of the other components.

    To better learn about these systems, I went to the Crestron booth, which appears to be the 500lb gorilla in the space based on their sales: ~$500m and presence at the show (their "booth" was 4-5 times as big as the second largest booth at the show). Privately held Crestron's products include the electronics and controls for: intercom, music, lights, climate, TV, shades, and security. At the show they were promoting their API (application programming interface) for installers to configure and customize systems. There's a recent Forbes magazine profile of the founder and CEO, who I saw at an early morning panel discussion on the future of the industry. If we want to learn about the market and potential of the Residential Hub, we should, amongst other things, try to find out as much as we can about Crestron.

    RoseWater shared the booth with a company called Energysquad.com, which is their new Maryland dealer and I believe their first. EnergySquad seems to be a mixture of distributor and dealer but because the RH units will likely be made to order, I think their role will be more as a dealer/installer. I'm not certain of that however. Most of Energy Squad's booth seemed to be devoted to LED lighting although they have a great many other products and are adding more aggressively. I haven't had a chance to research Energysquad.com beyond what I learned from talking to their folks at the show.

    Axion update mainly based on my conversation with Vani Dantam - Interest is very strong and his team is responding to a lot of inquiries/testing projects. I was not able to ascertain if activity has continued to increase beyond the high level reported in the annual meeting.

    Lots of international interest. Vani had just that morning received an inquiry from a country in the Caribbean for batteries to support a solar project. He's also had lots of interest from India although he noted that Axion would need to establish support infrastructure there.

    I sought and received Mr. Dantam's confirmation about the method JP uses to estimate PbC sales. He agreed with my statement that since Axion is charging customers for test batteries that John's PbC sales estimate will reflect the level/trend of testing activity.

    Vani is well aware of the need to show sales before the next fund raise. He was optimistic that there would be good news before year-end. Obviously, he can't say much, but I had to voice the concern that every one of us must share.

    There is one thing I can say about the personnel issues that several people have brought up. Marketing the Residential Hub to the CEDIA audience is obviously Joe P's thing. He conceived of the product two years ago, championed it, and eventually won Mr. Granville's approval. At CEDIA, Mr. Granville and Mr. Dantam stayed in the background. They sometimes listened in on the conversations between the RoseWater people and the installers but didn't say much, if anything at all, during those conversations. They seemed to be there for the same reason I was there.

    On a related note, this is probably a good opportunity to point out the respect Joe showed to us Axionistas. He could have easily told me to go away and come back later when fewer people would be in the booth, or just have me hang back more. Instead, several times he told me to come in closer (Joe was in the process of losing his voice so it was very difficult to hear him while also keeping a respectful distance). A few of the installers seemed to take note of all the "hangers on" but none of them let it bother them. Clearly Joe understood that I was representing all of you and he thought that sufficiently important to justify allowing me to hang out in what was a relatively crowded booth.

    In conclusion, I can't say this is comprehensive. I know I'm late getting this out. I'll add more as my recollection permits and am glad to answer your questions as best I can. I'll also go and review the questions on the instablog and add here any further responses to those questions.
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    In consideration of potential bandwidth and other concerns, we've omitted the pictures that APMarshal provided in APC 150. You can revisit Axion Power Concentrator 150: Sep. 12, 2012: APMarshall's Notes From CEDIA September 2012 to read the article and view the pictures or click the below links to just view the individual pictures.

    http://static.cdn-seekingalpha.com/uploads/2012/9/11/1631091-13474164623192055-Axion-Power-Host_origin.jpg
    http://static.cdn-seekingalpha.com/uploads/2012/9/11/1631091-13474165613913403-Axion-Power-Host_origin.jpg
    http://static.cdn-seekingalpha.com/uploads/2012/9/11/1631091-13474167047484539-Axion-Power-Host_origin.jpg
    http://static.cdn-seekingalpha.com/uploads/2012/9/11/1631091-1347416800736399-Axion-Power-Host_origin.jpg
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    John Petersen has provided price and volume charts updated through 9/14/2012.

    (click to enlarge)John Petersen

    (click to enlarge)John Petersen

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    Axion Power Concentrator 149: Sep. 9, 2012: Rosewater Energy Hub Articles, John Petersen's Updated Graphs, have links to several recent Rosewater-related articles and earlier charts from John Petersen.
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    Links to valuable Axion Power research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites, created by APC commentator Bangwhiz. It is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one, including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website. The first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

    Axion Power Chart Tracking. HTL tracks and charts AXPW's intra-day statistics.

    Testing Summary Statistics On Stocks. FocalPoint Analytics has begun an instablog that will apply statistical disciplines to metrics of stock activity to produce summary indications of likely actions going forward. Well worth a visit.
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    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!
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    WARNING: This is a troll free zone. We reserve the right to eliminate posts, or posters that are disruptive.

    Enjoy!

    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

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Comments (231)
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  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2057) | Send Message
     
    First? ....wow...
    19 Sep 2012, 10:35 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (666) | Send Message
     
    Good morning. Let's get some bidding moving upward.
    19 Sep 2012, 10:36 AM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    Just waiting on you to put in a market order for 1,000,000 shares... and we'll all follow ;-)

     

    But seriously... I think waiting to buy shares until 3:50pm or so might be wise after the price action of the last few days. Closing on or near the lows when the price spends half the day a few percent higher is not real great motivation for buying mid-day.
    19 Sep 2012, 10:50 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    $.275 is my next add point. Followed by $.25...
    19 Sep 2012, 11:02 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (666) | Send Message
     
    Jon, I would if I could. I am completely out of dry powder.
    19 Sep 2012, 11:06 AM Reply Like
  • gottliep
    , contributor
    Comments (41) | Send Message
     
    Don't know if any news may come out of this, but NSC and GE are sponsoring a sustainability symposium over 3 days from Sept 18.

     

    http://yhoo.it/OER8x2
    19 Sep 2012, 10:44 AM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    Just a reminder regarding the shareholder survey count and sharing it with management. Current count is 41 in favor which is well short of the majority. Being that it takes more time to write me an e-mail with the number of shares owned than it does to press a "like" button, sentiment seems to indicate we should not go ahead with this.

     

    The rough idea is:

     

    1) If there are a majority of people who participated in the survey indicating they want to share the survey results with Axion management

     

    2) Then we will check with Axion if they want the information (and that there's no legal ramifications to us sharing the data)

     

    3) And if they do want the data, then we will share the information

     

    If you would like the results of our survey shared with Axion management and Mr. Granville, please press the 'like' button on JP's comment about it in the last concentrator

     

    http://bit.ly/S3rilN

     

    Thank you.
    19 Sep 2012, 10:47 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Since there doesn't seem to be a groundswell of support for the idea of passing on the poll conclusions to Axion's management, I'm starting to think my suggestion was a bad idea. Axionistas shared information with you for a specific purpose. Without overwhelming agreement that the results should be shared outside the group, I think it may be best to keep it private.
    19 Sep 2012, 11:17 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    John, populist opinion doesn't make an idea bad or good. The thought was good, but the folks may not see the value in it.

     

    I know, I just wasted some bits, but "off the wall" ideas sometimes provide the best results.

     

    We don't ever want to quash the expression of them.

     

    IMO,
    HardToLove
    19 Sep 2012, 11:24 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Also, does lack of a "yes" really constitute a "no"? My own position is pretty apathetic - I don't care much either way. If they are already monitoring this blog, its largely redundant - and if they are not, that indicates another potential problem altogether...
    19 Sep 2012, 11:31 AM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (213) | Send Message
     
    I think we should give it a little more time. It's only been a couple of days. Let's see what the tally is by Friday.
    19 Sep 2012, 11:34 AM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (779) | Send Message
     
    Jon,

     

    Just a thought but maybe some of the folks missed the post about "liking" JP's post, I did! I just went and found the posting now.

     

    357
    19 Sep 2012, 11:37 AM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    RBruns357,

     

    That's why I reposted the request near the top of a new concentrator. I know some folks don't catch up on the APCs until the weekend.
    19 Sep 2012, 11:55 AM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2272) | Send Message
     
    I see no reason not to share the info. I'd vote for sharing.
    19 Sep 2012, 12:52 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1887) | Send Message
     
    We are at 50 we only need 7 more votes and 57 will be a clear majority...I will bet you will get those votes before the weekend.

     

    I can't think of anything negative to come from sharing it and I haven't seen anyone post a compelling reason not to. I am sure management has a pretty good ballpark figure of how much we have already, this would just put a number to it for them.
    19 Sep 2012, 01:23 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9482) | Send Message
     
    I think the best way to approach this is to see if Axion Power wants the data. This is an unprecedented survey...to my knowledge nothing like this shareholder count by a group of investors has ever been done for any company.

     

    Anytime the word "unprecedented" comes up, I get real careful about how to act, or react. I am clueless about whether or not this is even legal, or not. Common sense would say it is legal, but again, we're in uncharted waters, and who is to say the "Angels of Order" have ever worked on a foundation of common sense. I would not like risking anything that none of us know for sure that might jeopardize Axion, or us Axionistas.

     

    For the record, I am all for providing Axion with the survey data...if they want it.

     

    Any Wall Street lawyers in the crowd that can clean this "unknown" up?
    19 Sep 2012, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    I'd prefer an overwhelming majority to a simple one, but we'll see where we're at over the weekend.
    19 Sep 2012, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1887) | Send Message
     
    Defintitely fair and I am good with it either way. And Maya brings up a great point Axion Power may not even want the data. It could just complicate things for them in ways I have not thought of.
    19 Sep 2012, 01:43 PM Reply Like
  • Ishikawa
    , contributor
    Comments (174) | Send Message
     
    Maya is right. However, I believe that it is to TG's benefit to have this information to guard against Hostile takeover, if and when it happens. If this information somehow ends up in the hands of the sharks, they can use it to plan strategy on the take over and us, Axionistas may not be happy with the multiples that are offered. Does that make sense ? jmho.
    19 Sep 2012, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • FocalPoint Analytics
    , contributor
    Comments (5754) | Send Message
     
    What purpose would it serve? I am unclear of the potential advantages or the potential disadvantages.
    19 Sep 2012, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9482) | Send Message
     
    FPA: One useful data point or better yet, aspect for TG is that when he is in talks with a strategic investor(s), he can talk about the uniqueness of this gang of investors, and that, as JP pointed out, most of the shares held by the Axionistas, are being held for multiple gains. In other words, for the most part, we're not flippers, or traders. This is a very uncommon penny stock.

     

    Having a quarter of all Axion shares in strong hands, plus the shares held by the BODs, plus Manatuk Hill, is in my opinion not only useful data to know, but also useful for attracting a strategic investor.

     

    I think this is very important information, a feather in Axion's cap, so to speak. As once Quercus, BlackRock, or whomever else of the deep pockets are done selling, the strategic investor will have a great idea of what percentage of the float is in strong hands.

     

    It's quite a unique and benign piece of priceless knowledge.
    19 Sep 2012, 02:05 PM Reply Like
  • pascquale
    , contributor
    Comments (88) | Send Message
     
    I am not voting for it. Although I follow these concentrators closely and believe strongly in Axion, these concentrators do not always reflect my opinions and I do not want to imply to Axion management that they do.
    I won't lose sleep over it if they do get the information.
    19 Sep 2012, 02:10 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (1986) | Send Message
     
    I agree with Maya's points. It could be useful information for planning purposes for the company, despite it being rather imprecise, at best.

     

    I cannot imagine what would be illegal about sharing this informal survey with Axion management. It is anonymous and unverifiable information that simply represents the enthusiasm of a small portion of the company's shareholders that have found each other through the internet. Our "25%" guestimate of our strength as a group is simply that, a hopeful guess.
    19 Sep 2012, 02:28 PM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (230) | Send Message
     
    AXPW might want to review the data as a curiosity, but it is hardly verified or reliable information from their perspective. For this reason alone, I would have thought it unusable by them for any business purpose with a third party.

     

    This board is a wonderful place for us retail types to visit, debate and learn, and vent our hopes and frustrations (me), but I cannot imagine it serves any great purpose in the crafting of management's business strategy, or the success thereof. Nor should it really.

     

    One caveat, I do wonder where the current stock price would be without the Axionistas.
    19 Sep 2012, 02:44 PM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (213) | Send Message
     
    @anthli, your statement sums up my thoughts exactly. It might be fun for TG and company to know, but I'd think the information would be a novelty at best.
    19 Sep 2012, 02:46 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    Alright. I should have done this before. Those against sharing the survey data with Axion management, please "like" this comment.

     

    It certainly was not the original intent of the survey. What the survey was trying to do, is done. This was a follow-on idea I did not anticipate. Thus, if there's a lot of folks who don't want the information shared - since that wasn't part of the deal going in - in my opinion, we should consider that seriously.
    19 Sep 2012, 02:50 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9482) | Send Message
     
    anthlj: I'll agree with both the novelty and inexactness the survey brings. However, the survey does have some teeth.

     

    This is pure speculation; is if I was a strategic partner, a) I would already know about the Axionistas b) and therefore, if I was a strategic investor, I would spend a modicum of time talking about the APCs with TG c) If I was TG, I would feel compelled to talk with any strategic investor about the Axionistas, because of the significant percentage of market cap this group holds d) If I was TG, I would offer to the potential strategic investor that it "appears" that as the market cap doubles, triples and quadruples, and so on, there will still be a significant ownership of shares maintained by this group.

     

    For instance, for me, and with caveats of health or some arachnid dripping poison into my right nostril, I expect to only sell about 1/7th of my position somewhere between 92 and 98 cents. The rest I will hold until well past $2. Maybe even far higher.

     

    Again, this is all pure speculation, and much fun to do, and I am not promoting anything but some simple ideas...of which I would love to gain bangwhiz's perspective.
    19 Sep 2012, 03:26 PM Reply Like
  • Fancy Pants
    , contributor
    Comments (32) | Send Message
     
    What would be the purpose of reporting this info to TG and friends?
    19 Sep 2012, 04:14 PM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (213) | Send Message
     
    H.T. I see a 31,000 share trade after hours. Almost 10% of daily volume. Quercus?
    19 Sep 2012, 05:39 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    55
    19 Sep 2012, 05:45 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2272) | Send Message
     
    A few more Likes and we'll have our majority.

     

    Click here:
    http://seekingalpha.co...
    19 Sep 2012, 07:39 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Dastar: It fits the profile - 1/11th of total volume (not as spooky as it sounds - that's the approximate equivalent of 10% of the volume prior to that trade) is ~31,865 shares. when you add in 32,210 shares shorted (my *assumption* is that the MM is naked shorting the shares first and then buying to cover, as John suggested might be the case some time back), it seems even more likely.

     

    HardToLove
    19 Sep 2012, 07:44 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1073) | Send Message
     
    me too....
    19 Sep 2012, 11:54 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1073) | Send Message
     
    opps... that "me too" was in response to a much earlier post agreeing to allow the data to be sent to Axion MGMT.
    20 Sep 2012, 03:48 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2283) | Send Message
     
    "XL Hybrids Is Using JCI Battery Packs
    SEPTEMBER 18, 2012 by SHOWTIMES in HTUF 2012

     

    In line with a strategy of using top-drawer components for its modest hybrid vans, Massachusetts’ XL Hybrids disclosed last month that it will use new battery packs from Johnson Controls, Inc. when it enters production in early 2013.

     

    The JCI packs with high-power, spiral-wound lithium nickel cobalt aluminum cells represent a refinement of the battery packs in the XL Hybrids vans currently in trials. They are “based on an off-the shelf module with some customization,” says XL co-founder and supply chain VP Clay Siegert."

     

    http://bit.ly/QmM7Io

     

    Realted news links from ongoing conference including a brief UQM reference:

     

    http://bit.ly/OZOI8b

     

    all part of the High-Efficiency Truck User Forum http://www.htuf2012.org
    19 Sep 2012, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1823) | Send Message
     
    Do we feel this would be an application where the PbC is superior?

     

    Looks like they pay $8k per vehicle with a 1.8 kwh JCI lithium ion battery.

     

    D
    19 Sep 2012, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    D. McHattie, No this is not a good application for PBC. People buy this gas hog because they need the space. As such they wouldn't want to give up very much space if any.

     

    BTW, This platform GMT-600 was launched in the late 1980's (I worked on it). It later changed with little redesign to the GMT-560/610 platform as the front clip (doors forward) also functions as the GM vehicle of choice for their dump trucks and for coach builders. So it's not exactly designed for efficiency. Ford will be dumping their Econoline van in favor of the Ford Transit now being marketed in Europe. A little less space but more efficient.

     

    Those that absolutely need the space will stay with the full sized vans but will do it for the space as an absolute must have in my opinion. Well, unless there are some towing differences as well which I'm not interested in understanding.
    19 Sep 2012, 01:56 PM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (817) | Send Message
     
    I just read a news article that someone blew up electric power lines to Iran's nuclear centrifuge facility. It is suspected the objective was to damage the centrifuges.

     

    Now there is a market for PowerCubes if ever there was one. Can we get marketing on this right away?
    19 Sep 2012, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • Poul Brandt
    , contributor
    Comments (269) | Send Message
     
    Great idea, that will give Axion an incredible lot of exposure in the press.
    But I'm not so sure it will be positive. :-(
    19 Sep 2012, 12:48 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >Poul Brandt ... As long as they spell the name right ... a sale is a sale ... Those centrifuges weren't built by 3rd world industry and it has been ... what is that word(?) ... yeah, illegal to sell that technology for some 30 years now.
    19 Sep 2012, 12:55 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (1986) | Send Message
     
    It will have to go through Malaysia and be marked as "Humanitarian Relief" to get around the embargoes. Anybody know some middleman over there who speaks Persian?
    19 Sep 2012, 01:04 PM Reply Like
  • Poul Brandt
    , contributor
    Comments (269) | Send Message
     
    Well, there are many muslims in Malaysia. That should be enough. But I am not sure they are of the "correct type".
    19 Sep 2012, 01:54 PM Reply Like
  • Poul Brandt
    , contributor
    Comments (269) | Send Message
     
    DR.
    "Illegal" doesn't that mean "you can make a lot of money in a short time"?
    19 Sep 2012, 01:56 PM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (817) | Send Message
     
    On a more serious note. I have read a lot of articles about how bad the reliability of the grid is in India. Power outages are just about a daily occurrence and anyone who wants to stay in business has to buy a diesel generator. All these generators are trashing the air quality. Seems like India would be the best market for trying to sell both PowerCubes and the Residential HUB minicubes.
    19 Sep 2012, 02:29 PM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (213) | Send Message
     
    I think it was mentioned that Dantam spoke of interest from India but I also recall that there was a concern over there not being any support infrastructure there currently.
    19 Sep 2012, 02:33 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >Poul Brandt ... I can't remember whether it is "illegal" or "embargo" that is a synonym for obscene "profit".
    19 Sep 2012, 02:42 PM Reply Like
  • tonys23
    , contributor
    Comments (92) | Send Message
     
    A diesel generator costs a lot less than a Power Cube, however!
    20 Sep 2012, 06:19 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Tony: Yep, but the PC costs a lot less than the fuel the generator will consume, last longer (my best guess), requires less maintainance, has a higher "availability", takes no time to "come up to speed", ...

     

    I *suspect* that TCO will be a lot lower over it's lifetime.

     

    HardToLove
    20 Sep 2012, 06:42 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1333) | Send Message
     
    And a PowerCube can generate revenue...
    20 Sep 2012, 06:47 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Well, I guess I wouldn't compare a PC to a generator as direct competitors.

     

    The PC and generator are really complementary in some cases or might compete in others (rarely I think). In most cases in the upscale market I think the PC will stand alone unless you're in less reliable grid areas in which case you might also tie in a generator to the PC. Not sure if you go generator only with tons of high end electronics.

     

    Anyway, each customers needs will have to be assessed based on hard data and their soft side expectations. As we saw earlier with the Nissan Leaf article John provided, for those that read it, the soft side expectations for people with green beliefs can be a big factor.
    20 Sep 2012, 07:24 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >nogoodslacker ... I love electric utilities and India is a fascinating challenge. I believe over the next 30 years the country will become a huge collection of distributed power microgrids. The system there is so dilapidated from slap-happy installation, neglect, poverty & theft there is little choice but to upgrade one microgrid at time. It should prove to be a huge storage solution story for long duration & quick charge/quick response batteries because of the uncertainty of when & for how long reliable power is available.

     

    It is true that diesel generators are the backbone of temporary power but if their fuel is anything like the slug that is called diesel in the poor areas of Central & South America that I've seen this power is some of the most expensive & dirtiest in the world. Not a long term solution for a poor population. From my reading of the Indian news, agriculture is like the upper most concern and that comes down to water. So many of the blackouts the country suffers from are from water pumping. I'd have thought the cities would be the problem areas (and they have huge problems there mainly from theft & the slap-happy) but it is unregulated pumping that is probably the biggest headache. This is a crying need for upgrading farming techniques and putting infrastructure in the localized areas in need.
    20 Sep 2012, 08:10 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2057) | Send Message
     
    IMHO, PowerCubes and ResHubs are never competitors to generators.

     

    NGS referred to PCs for Iran. Having instant backup, eg, batteries, is probably essential for the high speed centrifuges as well as the electronics that control them. The engineers would be grossly incompetent if they didn't. There are many large-scale UPS suppliers in the world, typically using flooded lead acid batteries.

     

    As we all know, batteries are a very expensive way to store kwh. Grid power, almost anywhere, is in the $0.05-$0.20/kwh. Batteries cost from $100-1000 kwh; Bio-Carbons are unofficially estimated to be in the $250-400/kwh range. Nobody stores huge amounts of electricity with batteries.

     

    A nuclear processing plant uses HUGE amounts of electricity, and is located with access to very inexpensive power. Oak Ridge and Hanford use hydro;Iran's facilities may use Bushehr reactor, as well their huge gas reserves. Batteries would only supply a short time, just enough for a controlled shutdown. I doubt diesel backup at that scale (typically c. $1/kwh costs) is practical, although they may have installed a CCGT (gas turbine) locally.

     

    In short, regardless of trade restrictions, there is not likely to be a huge, no-brainer opportunity for PCs within Iran's nuke industry. (Ready to be proved wrong, of course.)

     

    Iindelco, you are talking about a 10wkh ResHub. As a dual-conversion design, I agree that a generator and RH are complementary. I suspect the vast majority of RH consumers will already have a generator. The RH function is to protect delicate electronics, and smooth the transition to generator power when needed.

     

    HTL, the total cost of ownership (TCO) for backup power is highly in favor of a generator. assuming grid reliability > 98%.

     

    The value of batteries is for things the generator does not do. A generator typically take 9-30 seconds to produce power, useless for electronics. A generator provides no power conditioning or protection against dirty electricity. Electricity from a small genset is usually very dirty, and not good for electronics. A generator is usually annoyingly noisy.

     

    A backup UPS diesel genset should easily be useful for several decades. I have had experience with multiple gensets for 30+ years each; none were retired due to failure. Since this is a grid-connect scenario, there undoubtedly is a contractor willing to service and maintain the genset.

     

    A traditional battery UPS system is unlikely to work for over a decade without a battery swap; the Bio-Carbon is unproven for very long, eg, multiple decade, service. Note the "2500 full discharge" factoid is not relevant to indicating multi-decade service; batteries decompose over time, independent of duty cycles.
    21 Sep 2012, 09:50 AM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    Oh how I wish for US electricity costs.

     

    Here in Bermuda we are currently paying $0.47/kwh residential and $0.56/kwh for commercial with on off peak breaks.

     

    Rates change with every tanker load of fuel.
    21 Sep 2012, 11:13 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >AlbertinBermuda ... (snark) Ya'll need to get together and fill some of those tankers with mixed chemistry batteries & then take advantage of those ocean tides & currents to generate some juice.
    21 Sep 2012, 11:19 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (666) | Send Message
     
    Albert,

     

    Sounds like Bermuda is a good place for solar panels. I looked at the possibility for my home in central Georgia. If I made the panels, it looked like a 15 year pay back. If I bought everything it looked like a 30 year pay back. Your pay back time would be about 1/3 to 1/4 of my time.
    21 Sep 2012, 11:33 AM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    Sadly we also have very high shipping costs, import duties albeit with some help from government but not much, labour and of course since our landmass is very small, 21 sq miles, high rent for the land.

     

    There is a current proposal for a 27Mw facility using 83,000 panels with a WAG startup cost of $200 to $300 million US dollars.

     

    One hell of a price for at best intermittent power to the grid.
    21 Sep 2012, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >AlbertinBermuda ... Eating up so much land seems silly when an island in the middle of the Gulf Stream shouldn't be lacking power. Something like Ocean Power Technologies Inc. (OPTT) and of course a mix of quick response PbC and long duration batteries would be logical to look into. Wouldn't upset the tourist as much either.
    21 Sep 2012, 12:32 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Mercifully it never clouds up and rains during peak power demand in the tropics. (snark)
    21 Sep 2012, 12:33 PM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (666) | Send Message
     
    I guess everything costs more when you live in paradise.
    21 Sep 2012, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    jveal, When X people live there it's not so expensive. When 1000X people move in and bring all those new fangled devices the whole equation changes. What's that corporate drum beat du jour?
    Oh, Sustainability.

     

    I guess you have to choose your definition of paradise. Well, I mean someone will impart their definition and you can play along if you so desire and can aspire.
    21 Sep 2012, 12:54 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (690) | Send Message
     
    DRich,

     

    A variety of wave technologies are under consideration by private enterprises plus cogeneration using our huge trash output and also offshore wind turbines.

     

    All vary expensive options for a population of less than 70k.

     

    The only grid provider uses oil/diesel but I have tried to open their ears to the possibilities of the Power Cube to help reduce costs.

     

    Fingers crossed!
    21 Sep 2012, 02:11 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Looks like some of the other players like Viridity think behind the meter is the way to go. Also suggesting that waiting for the utilities to support storage is a losing proposition as they are too slow. REALLY?

     

    http://bit.ly/UjB80z
    19 Sep 2012, 02:12 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    "As mentioned, Stem is relatively agnostic about battery technology. Lithium-ion is the current choice, although the firm could use lead acid or eventually some of the emerging new battery chemistries.

     

    "We are a software company," said the CEO. "We have a fundamental belief that every commercial building will have energy storage in it within 20 years." He added, "We aren't currently doing this with utilities. But we are doing it."

     

    By the end of next year, the firm looks to have two megawatts deployed."

     

    1) Glad you're back, iindelco.

     

    2) Yep, sure seems like there's better near-term sales prospects selling to non-utilities.

     

    3) Yet another giant mkt for PbC to capture a decent slice.

     

    4) Could call our battery modules "Stem Cells." Same basic bldg blocks; software Nucleus tells them what to do.
    19 Sep 2012, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2283) | Send Message
     
    "Part of Stem's secret sauce is the power electronics needed to get AC into and out of a DC battery. "A big piece of our IP is our power electronics," said Thompson. The inverter, charger, and battery management system (BMS) have to form an integrated whole and "have to work together to do anything interesting." "

     

    http://bit.ly/S5EySv

     

    Seems like they're more than "just" a software company ...

     

    Also:
    "Initial customers will be medium-sized commercial entities such as fast-food restaurants, retail chains, and hotels."

     

    "We're using the best value-driven battery we can find," adding, "It's effectively an electric vehicle battery, small and dense enough to fit in a commercial building. It's like parking an EV in your office."
    19 Sep 2012, 04:48 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >wtblanchard ... So it is probably a Li-on! With as little hard info as there is, I would put two likely "facts" forward. One, it is for likely for low draw, long duration loads i.e. lighting ... not great for FR and slow to recharge. Two, high value consideration for the battery is footprint over cost.

     

    I think once, if or when Axion gets paired up with a partner that can sell similar units ... the PbC will win a larger market share than Stem's battery selection.
    19 Sep 2012, 05:26 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2283) | Send Message
     
    "if or when Axion gets paired up with a partner that can sell similar units ..."

     

    This is the key question ... are we waiting for "them" to come to us, or are we being proactive?

     

    It sounds like if Joe Pic hadn't been an insider with vision and also very forceful, there would be no Residential Hub today.

     

    I realize there are many potential "thems," but I'm wondering if we need a VEU (Vani Equivalent Unit) who knows the market and can get us moving forward in this market while Vani focuses on autos and rails.
    20 Sep 2012, 10:50 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    WTB: This sort of guidance and energy should come from the CEO, at this stage company, imo.
    20 Sep 2012, 11:02 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3768) | Send Message
     
    "but I'm wondering if we need a VEU (Vani Equivalent Unit) who knows the market and can get us moving forward in this market while Vani focuses on autos and rails."

     

    I tend to think AXPW if Vani was provided with multiple supporting staff focused on identifying and developing markets that are not dominated by large oligopolistic firms. Rosewater Energy interests may be very closely aligned with Axion's, but they are not identical and the markets RW principals are familiar with are much narrower than the potential range of PbC technology.
    20 Sep 2012, 11:03 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >wtblanchard ... Axion's business model isn't to seek out the general public end-users but to have end-user vendors develop applications utilizing the PbC. So I guess Rosewater would be Axion's end-using consumer. It is up to the public selling vendors to make the market. Vani is there to make the Rosewater's & Stem's of this world aware of the wonders of the PbC and invest their money in product development. If Axion had some spare money laying about it probably would speed things along if they could make some Viridity Energy demonstrators but that, according to plans, is Viridity Energy's responsibility.

     

    Conclusion (?), Axion is a come to us type operation. Better mousetrap theory of marketing.
    20 Sep 2012, 11:05 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (666) | Send Message
     
    Adding to DRich's comments,

     

    The strategy has been working. As an unknown small cap R&D company, Axion Power has snagged two year plus relationships with BMW and NSC. In addition we now have Rosewater as an independent sales company promoting the powercube and its suggested product, the energy hub. There are other relationships we know little or nothing about.

     

    The thing that frustrates me the most is not knowing what's going on. We only get partial glimpses from the company every quarter. The rest we have to dig for ourselves. Thankfully we have this concentrator group to depend on.
    20 Sep 2012, 11:18 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Maybe this is why such a large player from Blackstone was sniffing around during the last Axion cc. Seems they are interested in the Rosewater area.

     

    "Vivint, a Home Automation-Plus-Solar Player, Set to Be Acquired by Blackstone for $2B"

     

    http://bit.ly/SC0eq3
    19 Sep 2012, 03:05 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3308) | Send Message
     
    uh, I can never keep these straight.... BlackStone or BlackRock? which is which and which one is ours?
    19 Sep 2012, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    That's 'stone and ours is 'rock. Good catch 481086. Still yet, an interesting post iindelco. Glad to have your interesting data points here again.
    19 Sep 2012, 03:13 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    Berkowitz was from Blackrock (http://bit.ly/PU6RXQ). Blackstone (http://bit.ly/IgEMFN) is a different firm. Then there's Black Hole Sun, our current location: http://bit.ly/S5w51N
    19 Sep 2012, 03:16 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9482) | Send Message
     
    WB, iindelco!
    19 Sep 2012, 03:29 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Maya and all.

     

    Don't want to get into it but ouch. Well, that's life. :(
    19 Sep 2012, 03:45 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1073) | Send Message
     
    Mr I... looks like your a Gen-Xer, like me... although I'm partial to Pearl Jam
    20 Sep 2012, 04:00 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3768) | Send Message
     
    "Mr I... looks like your a Gen-Xer, like me... although I'm partial to Pearl"

     

    :-) So, you're saying you don't remember life and music before ....?
    20 Sep 2012, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1073) | Send Message
     
    Just Elvis...
    20 Sep 2012, 10:29 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I always have to wonder about the generation that asks the musical question, "The Beatles, weren't they Paul McCartney's old group?"
    21 Sep 2012, 12:30 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Ahh, Thanks all. My bad.
    19 Sep 2012, 03:21 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    I guess it's good to be GE and have scale.

     

    GE Announces $63 million in New Orders for Breakthrough Battery

     

    http://aol.it/PUb0Lo

     

    Nobody ever got fired for ordering IBM.
    19 Sep 2012, 03:47 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... As a battery play, GE is far & away my largest dollar position. Although my hope was initially for generation turbine sales with locomotive & storage as a secondary.
    19 Sep 2012, 03:52 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    DRich, understood. But as you suggest GE is so large the battery business is really just complimentary to a sector where they are already a top 10 world player where even their other holdings in energy will dwarf their battery business for years to come even if it's hugely successful which looks to be assured.
    19 Sep 2012, 04:01 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    All the more reason for Axion to partner up with some biggies. Axion wins. The biggies win. We win. All depends on the timing and the terms, of course.
    19 Sep 2012, 04:22 PM Reply Like
  • nummik
    , contributor
    Comments (67) | Send Message
     
    Isn't GEs productive sector only a fraction of their financing sector?
    19 Sep 2012, 04:35 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    nummik, I do not follow GE that closely but I do recall them looking to continue to reduce their exposure to finance and moving more toward their industrial divisions. They also tried a few times to eliminate their consumer appliance division but for some reason didn't make it happen. When they gave up their excuse was that they wanted to keep their name in front of the public with at least one consumer products division (marketing!).

     

    I suspect they will stay in finance, especially where it supports sales of their large scale industrial products.
    19 Sep 2012, 05:08 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... Quite true, it is a behemoth, but it is a competitor and I can't in good conscience make my portfolio nothing but pure plays. Electric energy & heavy transport are my core investment themes. GE just fit and works for my worldwide diversified category. Pure plays in the storage category only have faves & hates but only one choice I like, Enersys (ENS), with everything else treated as a speculation. JCI trades as an auto and I'm only mildly interested in holding it but it is good for swing trading.
    19 Sep 2012, 05:39 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    DRich, I would never suggest how you should invest your money. I was only intending to point out that GE is far from being a battery play. It's a good business for them but it's such a small fraction of the whole which I'm sure you understand better than I.
    21 Sep 2012, 03:41 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... I'm always open to discuss my investment thesis. General Electric (GE) is one solid company that covers so many of my bases. Elect turbines & distribution, locomotives, batteries (wasn't much more than a spec 10 years ago), nuclear & water. Call it a portfolio anchor company. Sadly over the last 10-15 years it has acted like an anchor. The biggest trouble with it was the previous CEO put too much into the GE Capital that was not core business ... just book jiggling profit center to stabilize quarterly reports.

     

    Johnson Controls (JCI) is another solid company that is not a pure battery play. My interest in JCI is in their environmental business & batteries but they get lumped into the auto sector and trade like it. That makes my slowly growing holding in this company a function of profits reinvested from swing trading it. If it ever broke out of the pale of the autos I'd put core money in it. It should trade more closely with Honeywell (HON) than the Big 3. My reason for not being enthusiastic.

     

    Like I said, my only pure play core investment for batteries is Enersys (ENS). Exide, Axion et al are specs and that limits the size.
    21 Sep 2012, 04:07 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    My trading screen has shown some unusual behavior this afternoon. Some recent trades didn't change the MM's best bid # of shares, like the 1st 50k at .286 and the 13.3k both hitting UBSS' 52k shares bid, and the 10k hitting ETRF's 15k shares at .285. I've only seen that outta NITE and FANC, etc., when they show 5k shares, not outta UBSS and ETRF or about anyone else when they have >5k.
    19 Sep 2012, 04:00 PM Reply Like
  • snowbirdac11
    , contributor
    Comments (32) | Send Message
     
    I was looking at TDAmeritrade level 2 screen during the last ten minutes before the close today. There were several good size bids at .286 and one 5k ask at .289. The .289 ask did not take the .286 bids. If there was a big seller, he could have sold over 50k at .286 right before the closing.

     

    Hopefully, this is the sign that the big seller is gone.
    19 Sep 2012, 04:52 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    snowbird, he did. But it took the second 50k sold at .286 (at 15:53:35) to take out the 52.6k UBSS bid. Strange that the first 50k sold at that price 20 minutes earlier nor the 13.3k sold 10 minutes later did not reduce the 52.6k shares bid size. I suppose there could have been a fakey 5k bid as part of the 52.5k, but to also see the same behavior with the ETRF bid was unusual to me.
    19 Sep 2012, 05:13 PM Reply Like
  • snowbirdac11
    , contributor
    Comments (32) | Send Message
     
    Mr. Investor
    Clarification - I saw three bids at .286 - total greater than 50k after the 10k @.2890 sale at 15:56:08. (This was after the 50k sale at 15:31:13 and 50k sale at 15:53:35.)

     

    I did not see the big seller jump in and toke the three .286 bids. What I see now, Q jumped in AH at 16:07:24 and sold 31k @.2850.
    19 Sep 2012, 05:38 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    MrI: My *guess* is that those trades were not made in the market. Nasdaq (where OTC is apparently hosted) runs "windows" (read that as "dark pools" I guess) throughout the day that allow the market-makers to be bypassed.

     

    That's enabling inter-broker trades - you know, just like the old days when a h00m0n being picked up a phone and spoke to another h00m0n being?

     

    It' also possible it was an intra-broker trade, which also bypasses the market-makers.

     

    The last possibility I can think of is that a larger customer called his favored MM (they're co-dependent is my bet) and said I want to move these ...

     

    MM, being beholden, does the unthinkable and picks up the phone ...

     

    Voila and *whew*, "Got 'er done"!

     

    If this last was the case, that may be why we saw two trades 22 minutes apart. One takes the shares and the other puts them - order is irrelevant in this case.

     

    Of course, it could be two unrelated - mustn't overlook the obvious.

     

    Ah, another factoid eliminates the MM involvement *unless* he was long those shares from 9/13 or later T+(1..3) delivery to his portfolio: Shorts today only 32210, 9.2%. Not enough to cover either of those 50K trades.

     

    HardToLove
    19 Sep 2012, 05:53 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    MrI: See my reply to your earlier above.

     

    HardToLove
    19 Sep 2012, 05:55 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    thanks, bud
    19 Sep 2012, 06:01 PM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (666) | Send Message
     
    The first of October could be very interesting!! If what some of you have been suggesting about tax loss selling is true, the dumping we are seeing could produce a similar result we had at the beginning of the year. The share price went from 25 cents to 64 cents in 26 days. Add to that the fact that JP had predicted the inflection point by the end of summer, two more trading days.

     

    These two dynamics could come together and produce a spectacular rise in price. If we could also get some good news of sales at the same time ..........
    19 Sep 2012, 04:18 PM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (369) | Send Message
     
    Norfolk Southern might not be spending on battery-operated locomotives for a while:

     

    http://nyti.ms/PB5c7A

     

    On the other hand, maybe they will step up the program in hopes of reducing fuel costs.
    19 Sep 2012, 05:12 PM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (213) | Send Message
     
    They'll have to continue forward with it regardless due to EPA guidelines.
    19 Sep 2012, 05:14 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    dastar, I agree. Improving efficiency is NSC's core business.

     

    But I will still add that they have been pretty darn slow in getting the NS999 (BP4) round II test unit into operation. But alas there could be sound reasons for that. Reduced coal should free up Altoona shop time though. Less loco PM. That is, if they don't reduce staff.
    19 Sep 2012, 05:28 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    For: and as DRich has pointed out, the PbC solution is a lot cheaper than buying new locos.

     

    Against: but as he's also said, there is a lot of institutional inertia the PbC solution will have to overcome.

     

    For: as JP argues, rolling back environmental regs-to-be is more difficult than keeping them. Another inertia thing.

     

    For: as apm reported, TG/Vani said at CEDIA that NS is still making progress on the project.

     

    Against: that was a couple weeks ago.
    19 Sep 2012, 05:29 PM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (369) | Send Message
     
    Excellent. Thanks for bringing me up to speed on that.
    19 Sep 2012, 05:32 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    HTL,

     

    Date|Symbol|ShortVolum...
    20120919|AXPW|32210|0|...

     

    So, FINRA short volume was small again. Of course, there was also the AH 31k Q trade.
    19 Sep 2012, 05:39 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I talked with HTL about the impact of the AH trades yesterday. My working thesis has always been that Quercus has told a market maker "We want to be 10% of daily volume. Instead of having us make selling decisions, we'll give you a blanket order that you can draw against during the course of the day and then offset against our position in an AH trade."

     

    If that's the case, the short sales would occur during the trading day and be reported as such, and the covering AH trade wouldn't have an impact.
    20 Sep 2012, 12:37 AM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (213) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/NCTMSA

     

    Interesting tidbit:

     

    "BMW is testing thermoelectrics in its cars by harvesting heat from the exhaust system."
    19 Sep 2012, 05:41 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1317) | Send Message
     
    dastar-
    Thank you for introducing me to that site. I'll be up all night reading, now. Pretty interesting stuff.
    19 Sep 2012, 06:07 PM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (666) | Send Message
     
    How will they store that heat generated electricity for later or continuous use? PbC? Lithium?
    19 Sep 2012, 06:24 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Dastarr: Golly! I recall back when I was 17 laying awake at night thinking about how I could eliminate the generator by integrating thermo-electric couplings into the exhaust system. Never got to where I saw enough efficiency to justify the expense since gasoline was around $0.15-$0.18 a gallon.

     

    Another million dollars I missed (or saved - might have been too early) due to inaction. Magnetic bearings, same deal.

     

    I doubt I was first, but I apparently wasn't last either.

     

    HardToLove
    19 Sep 2012, 06:35 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1222) | Send Message
     
    I'm trying to think how the air conditioning/engine cooling system can be modified to grab that heat. Some sort of turbo-air-con heat exchanger retro-mod.
    19 Sep 2012, 07:45 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    It's a way cool idea, but the tellurium part of the lead-telluride material is incredibly material constrained.
    20 Sep 2012, 12:41 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2083) | Send Message
     
    Last I looked, the efficiency (4-6%?) and cost of Thermoelectric modules makes them a poor bet unless you have a lot of free heat at 200C or above. You also need to cool the opposite side of the module which would increase the load on the cooling system. Which means, in an auto, more radiator area or a separate system altogether.

     

    Might be worthwhile, but it's not huge.

     

    There are some new materials and nano-structure ideas bubbling up from R&D lately, but not ready for prime time this decade without a slug of money for more development.

     

    IMO, naturally.

     

    21 Sep 2012, 05:45 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1222) | Send Message
     
    Either Axion has the solution to the 999 problem or it doesn't. If they don't, then this is a sinking ship, because the 999 represents a singular proof of concept for the one trait needed for all PbC apps: flaming hot DCA without actual fires.

     

    Sure, it sucks, Axion crashed and burned on their first impression with NSC. NSC isn't in the business of Baseball where everyone gets three strikes. It's more like one and yer done.

     

    But if Axion KNOWS what went wrong AND they are willing to demonstrate this to NSC beyond a shadow of a doubt, the mutally beneficial partnership could start this locomotive rolling.

     

    IMO, Axion should FIX the problem free of charge, no pun intended.
    19 Sep 2012, 06:10 PM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (213) | Send Message
     
    Edmund, are you referring to the first failed 999 launch which only lasted a few months before the AGM batteries started failing? Those weren't Axion's batteries.........
    19 Sep 2012, 06:24 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Edmund: OOPS! Careful - don't want bad info out there. As Dastar noted, those weren't PbC batteries and Axion wasn't involved - no way, shape or form!

     

    HardToLove
    19 Sep 2012, 06:38 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Edmund, Here is the announcement from the original NS999 program. They were lead acid batteries. This failure is what had NSC investigating lithium ion, ultrabatteries and Nimh batteries along with Axions PbC offering. NSC chose Axions PbC based on their studies at Penn State, NSC and Axion.

     

    http://bit.ly/uYBkC8
    19 Sep 2012, 06:39 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1222) | Send Message
     
    ACK!! My bad. That's good news!

     

    I guess I had inferred from other posts re' NSC getting burned or developing inertia that the first failure was due to "prototype" PbCs.

     

    hmmmmmm, so that raises the question: If we have a better product, does Axion lack for salesmanship? I love selling a great product. Something about the win-win nature of the experience. It makes you feel good to make a profit while performing a service.

     

    No, I'm not a saleman, I'm a chemist.
    19 Sep 2012, 06:52 PM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (213) | Send Message
     
    Just seems to be the nature of the beast.

     

    NSC is definitely not in a hurry to have pie on their face again. They do seem to be moving awfully slow on even having the PbCs delivered to outfit the prototype, I just have to assume they have their reasons. They've already been bench testing the Pbc for 2+ years? now.

     

    And BMW is moving the PbC through at breakneck speed (if you can believe that).

     

    I have every confidence in the PbC, having gone through the extended lab testing motions of BMW and NSC, I'm not really worried. When the good news comes, there could be a deluge of it. We are just getting through the famine before the feast.
    19 Sep 2012, 07:00 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1222) | Send Message
     
    So all the focus I have seen here re' the first 999 was a more a matter of proof of principle than proof of PbC?

     

    That's like saying its nice to have a Chevy cuz it's got color.

     

    I am relatively new to this board and I thank you all for the fount of knowledge here. I came to Axion through my own DD from the "dark green side", spending many hours digging through a pile of alt energy stock ideas because I'm a motley fool and I don't have money to waste on GAAEX. I settled on the ubiquitous need for alt energy storage and finally got directed to AXPW via the "Turkish white paper" as I call it.

     

    My average PPS is 0.4196 including too many commissions.

     

    For some reason, I'm still smiling and I still believe. But I'd sure like to have TG make another pick-me-up call.
    19 Sep 2012, 07:09 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1222) | Send Message
     
    Oh, yeah, I'm a Ford man. Government Motors can go to he$$.
    19 Sep 2012, 07:13 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >Edmund Metcalfe ... To date, I've not gotten any knowledge, sense or feeling that the Axion PbC has been anything but a success. My guess is the engineering departments that have tested have passed it and approve. Should life be so easy.
    19 Sep 2012, 07:16 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Edmund: I don't consider your price bad - I've said many times, and still believe, that anything below $0.42 is an attractive price. I've got some there, some at $0.39 and some at $0.301 - some are intended for trading and others to hold.

     

    If I can shake some more dry powder loose, I hope to add some more while it's still down here. Thus far, time is on my side, but the window will close on me some day soon.

     

    Since I'm already way overweight (no wise-cracks John! ;-)), I'll live with it though.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    19 Sep 2012, 07:18 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1222) | Send Message
     
    I appreciate all the replies.

     

    But seriously, what's the best way to get pie off your face if not to have your cake and eat it too?

     

    I volunteer my QQ-plated F-100 to help haul those batteries to Altoona!
    19 Sep 2012, 07:31 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1769) | Send Message
     
    At this point, I tend to look at the delay in PbC use for BMW as being not as much trying to figure out if the battery works for start-stop, but more for, what other devices and gizmos can they run with it. Looking at all the things they have in their concept cars, and the fact that they are already crashing their AGM batteries with the constant power usage, I figure they aren't just planning their stop-start around the PbC, but also their whole electrical system with all their new gee whiz toys. Which is why it is taking longer. IMHO
    19 Sep 2012, 10:01 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1317) | Send Message
     
    There may be something about the strengths of the PbC that causes people trying it to think things through, yet again.

     

    IIRC a spokesman for BMW alluded to this; the need or opportunity to develop systems around the PbC's strengths....and we see their eco drive ( or what ever they call it) with the emphasis on regenerative braking.
    19 Sep 2012, 10:03 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Axion had nothing to do with the failed NS 999. Those were Odyssey batteries from Enersys. – http://bit.ly/uYBkC8
    20 Sep 2012, 12:44 AM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (230) | Send Message
     
    Lab,
    Should we be thinking of BMW as delayed yet? I'm not sure that what we know of progress there to date falls outside what is expected for automotive. And I fully concur with your point that there is more than just a battery to switch out in auto, which makes it a much tougher development.
    NS, on the other hand, have historically given timelines, set expectations with Axion, and fallen behind those marks, which is a cause for concern.
    20 Sep 2012, 01:52 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Companies the size of Norfolk Southern live according to their own clock and proceed at their own pace. I don't understand why people automatically assume that their failure to meet our expectations is a sign of trouble.

     

    The battery locomotive project is important enough to NS that they've spent two years doing double redundant testing and have probably spent something close to a million dollars of their own money.

     

    I've been involved in several transactions over the years where my small company clients were trying to buy something from a major company, sell something to a major company or conduct operations in partnership with a major company. It always went at the major company's pace and there wasn't a damned thing I could do to make the other side move faster.

     

    Getting movement from a big corporation is more like turning a supertanker than a speedboat.
    20 Sep 2012, 02:27 AM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1073) | Send Message
     
    Hi doc:

     

    http://bit.ly/PJLAN9

     

    BMW calls it "EfficientDynamics. Pretty cool page... ok... I'm a little bias.... but...
    20 Sep 2012, 04:09 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    That's a major re-do from their earlier page. Quite impressive.
    20 Sep 2012, 05:37 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    LabTech: I think you're spot-on. Iindelco has touched on that in the past, IIRC. The "system view" spreads far beyond the immediate application being addressed and pulls in other groups is what ISTR.

     

    HardToLove
    20 Sep 2012, 08:06 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1823) | Send Message
     
    The BMW i8 is the right way to do an electric car.

     

    It's a beautiful piece of art that scores brownie points with governments and influences public perception of all other BMWs.

     

    Most vehicles are enhanced by having the BMW hood ornament on them whereas the i8 actually enhances the hood ornament.

     

    It makes sense to create such a car if you have a stable of ICE vehicles you can sell using your electric piece of industrial art.

     

    This is where Tesla got it wrong - they didn't realize that electric cars are just a marketing tool for more efficient ICE cars.

     

    Imagine how many Corollas you could sell if you gave them inexpensive start/stop, perhaps a little regen braking and called it 'the Corolla Tesla'. Who knows, perhaps that's what Toyota has in mind.

     

    D
    20 Sep 2012, 09:12 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7426) | Send Message
     
    I'm not sure that Tesla "got it wrong" by producing a vehicle that has more positive excitement than anything else in recent memory. The S has gotten more press, with no advertising, than most. Another hybrid from BMW, especially one probably in the $200K range, just doesn't matter much.
    20 Sep 2012, 09:32 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (1986) | Send Message
     
    Yeah, D, but "Brass Corollacles" just don't have the same ring.
    20 Sep 2012, 09:56 AM Reply Like
  • timzinski
    , contributor
    Comments (78) | Send Message
     
    I read that Toyota is producing a special all electric version of the Rav4 using the Tesla drivetrain and controls. However, they are only selling them in 2 cities in California and they are only going to produce 2,400 units. This will satisfy the CA regulations so T can continue to sell their ICE and hybrids there (they will lose money on each electric Rav4).
    TimZ
    20 Sep 2012, 10:27 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Tim, Toyota's been to this rodeo before. They will let Tesla, as a contract supplier, fulfill the California mandated sales requirement because it's a niche market deserving of their attention but it's not ready for prime time yet. Is there and large scale manufacturer that would know more than Toyota in this area?

     

    ( I almost want to re-post my mood music again :) )
    20 Sep 2012, 10:49 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13386) | Send Message
     
    Do it, iindelco. Turtles gotta rock out, sometimes...
    20 Sep 2012, 11:04 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    tripleblack, OK. Put on yer dancin shoes!

     

    http://bit.ly/QoNPZK
    20 Sep 2012, 05:31 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I've really missed you for the last couple weeks Iindelco. Welcome back.
    21 Sep 2012, 12:33 AM Reply Like
  • RyanfBell
    , contributor
    Comments (70) | Send Message
     
    If it helps any I don't see a issue with sharing the info, my position is 120,000 and standing firm on that number. Hope that helps
    19 Sep 2012, 06:56 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Just as a weird reminder to myself to investigate further ...

     

    In reply to Dastar above, it occurred to me that if some shorts reported were related to Quercus trades, we had almost zero short sales today outside of Quercus, ~31k?

     

    It's happened a few times in the past that we had zero, and very near-zero, but it is not common. And even ignoring Quercus in today's 32.2K+ is low: average is ~75K, median is ~47.7 and 32K resides in the bottom 1/3rd of the instances.

     

    It carries significance if my recent success in executing 2+2=4 (connecting short sales with "normal" delivery within three days after the trade) holds water.

     

    It says that either the market-makers were long enough today to get 350.5K shares, less the 31K for Quercus, traded without shorting hardly anything *or* a whole lot of shares bypassed the market-maker. We(?) *do* suspect that two reported 50K trades (100K total) may have done this, leaving about 220K more that we would *guess* went through the market-makers.

     

    N.B. 9/13-9/14 shorts totaled ~217.3K. Theoretically 9/13's (99.5K) would *normally* hit the MMs' portfolios no later than EOD yesterday (9/18) and the 9/14 ones (~117K) no later than EOD today.

     

    220K traded with few shorts, 217K from prior shorts possibly arriving "in the nick of time"?

     

    And now we know what to look for when time to back-test comes.

     

    Apologies to those without interest.

     

    TFH notwithstanding, sometimes I feel justified feeling like I'm the person in this.

     

    http://bit.ly/RyYXj9

     

    HardToLove
    19 Sep 2012, 08:16 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    HTL, so what is the impact on the non-Q big seller(s) of private placement shares---can we say their 900k shares left (per JP's estimate) is not declining much at the moment?
    19 Sep 2012, 09:07 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    It's important to remember that the tools we can use to make estimates are pretty crude and now that they're within 2% of the starting number we're probably inside the margin of error. It's entirely possible that Quercus is the only legacy holder that has shares left they want to sell. We could also have somebody out there that wants to sell at a minimum of $.30 and is sitting on the sidelines till the pressure abates. I'm encouraged that we've seen two days where the total FINRA shorts match our conjecture about what Quercus is doing, but it's not a consistent enough pattern to draw any conclusions yet.
    20 Sep 2012, 12:58 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    MrI: I can't add to what John said. As much as I would like to extend what I (eventually?) discover, I believe it's utility will be limited to general deductions about why price and volume do what they do and what they are likely to do very short-term as a result of the *huge* influence I believe MMs exert when volume leaves them in control.

     

    My hope is that allows us to be less spooked by some some of this market action and make better decisions about buy and sell activities, offsetting the rigging against us that is inherent in the way the markets are operated.

     

    HardToLove
    20 Sep 2012, 08:24 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    While we've been focused on how many big seller shares are left to sell, some other sellers have been bailing recently, in decent and steady enough volume to help drive the price down. We have rarely discussed those sellers, because we have even less data about them than for the old private placement holders. How many shares do THEY have left? Could be millions. Could be thousands. We just don't know.

     

    I'll state the obvious, though, and say the price action continues to be bad. How much lower do we go?
    20 Sep 2012, 10:11 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Markets ebb and flow and existing stockholders are constantly buying and selling for reasons of their own.

     

    The selling activity that pushes prices down is invariably the last tranche of incremental supply from legacy holders, because that's the slice that represents surplus supply and forces new shares into the "public float."

     

    When the legacy holders stop pushing on the rope, the only source of supply will be the "other holders" who are willing to sell at a particular time and price. The posters to these Concentrators are a good cross-section of that group.
    20 Sep 2012, 10:19 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    HTL

     

    I'm still scratching the surface re TA...any relevance to AXPW discussion?

     

    For Superfast Stock Traders, a Way to Jump Ahead in Line

     

    http://on.wsj.com/S8rPUG

     

    A basic principle of U.S. stock exchanges is that the first investor to place an order at the best current price generally should be the one whose order is filled first.
    But critics say high-frequency traders can jump ahead in line via special order types, like "Hide Not Slide." Here's how it works.

     

    How 'Hide Not Slide' Orders Work
    http://on.wsj.com/P19Omw
    19 Sep 2012, 09:55 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Magounsq: since I'm not a WSJ subscriber, I can't read it. There was a wasted few minutes on CNBC yesterday though in which the "Hide Not Slide" order was mentioned as an attempt to fix some problems related to HFT and ... "Flash Trades"?

     

    Until I can dig more, I really can't have any thoughts other than I *think* all these HFTs and "Flash Trades" and Quants need high liquidity to be effective and profitable. If so, AXPW wouldn't be on their radars yet.

     

    I'm doing some googling and will try to remember to get back.

     

    HardToLove
    20 Sep 2012, 08:32 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2283) | Send Message
     
    You can usually read (at least once) any WSJ article by typing the title into http://news.google.com
    20 Sep 2012, 11:30 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Wtb: Thanks! That worked!

     

    HardToLove
    20 Sep 2012, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Magounsq: After reading the articel via the method Wtb provided, I can't decide whether this affects us. The "Queue Jumping", which is what the order type provides, is provided by all the major exchanges and is used by all the major market-makers. There have been times I saw orders go that I swear should have gone to me.

     

    But since we are on the OTC, which has a different level of flexibility allowed. I can't decide if it was just which market-maker (or exchange) the orders matched up on or if there was some "queue jumping".

     

    My TFH says there was and my intellect says that's confirmation bias.

     

    I will say that I do believe the way things are designed is to intentionally favor the big money over the little guy.

     

    HardToLove.
    20 Sep 2012, 12:35 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    Thanks HTL!

     

    Just trying to follow your TA and reconcile in my mind the MM dynamics.
    20 Sep 2012, 04:59 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Magounsg: "reconcile in my mind the MM dynamics"

     

    Be careful sir! That's known to be corrosive to your brain cells, reducing your chances of passing common sanity tests! :-))

     

    HardToLove
    20 Sep 2012, 05:09 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    touche'
    20 Sep 2012, 09:54 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1073) | Send Message
     
    Is it just me, or is the number of "followers" on the concentrator starting to really ramp up?
    19 Sep 2012, 11:50 PM Reply Like
  • Poul Brandt
    , contributor
    Comments (269) | Send Message
     
    Occam
    You are right. It took weeks to go from 145 to 147. Then we had the discussion about how many shares we all together hold, which brought it to 154ish. Finally the discussion about "followers" and how to choose "follow APH", which brought the number to 160ish. But since then it has continued.
    Is something brewing?
    An inflection point in the number of followers. :-)
    Or more likely, it is a side-effect of the ongoing counting of votes for and against sharing the share-count with Axion.
    20 Sep 2012, 01:53 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3768) | Send Message
     
    Poul, JP's new publishing gig might have stimulated a wider range of investors as well.
    20 Sep 2012, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I've been pretty quiet for the last month because I've been spending so much time working on my ELBC presentation. I did, however, get a short piece off last night pointing out that both Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley made massive computational errors in their recent reports on Tesla and the treetops are much closer than people imagine. - http://bit.ly/PsH4nQ
    20 Sep 2012, 11:24 AM Reply Like
  • dastar
    , contributor
    Comments (213) | Send Message
     
    I always like seeing all the people in the comments section who get into a huff and a puff over your articles over there.
    20 Sep 2012, 11:56 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (775) | Send Message
     
    Mr John:
    I think that was happening. We need your articles.
    Have a nice day.
    Carlos

     

    Note: Feliz tour by Paris.
    20 Sep 2012, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    O_R

     

    Certainly an increase in new commenters (names)...and with multiple posts.
    20 Sep 2012, 05:02 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    John

     

    whoa!...60 comments in 1 day! (TSC)...I will read comments later...I can imagine the ruffled feather retorts!
    20 Sep 2012, 05:09 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    73 comments...~10PM...imp... for a quick hit article!
    20 Sep 2012, 10:06 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4335) | Send Message
     
    >magounsq ... The Company That Can Not Be Named might be low on cash but they seem to have hired diligent reputation minding PR firms.
    20 Sep 2012, 10:37 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Given the quality of the comments, I sometimes wonder whether they're using "reputation protection history" as a hiring criteria for a summer intern program.
    21 Sep 2012, 12:36 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    DRich

     

    Good point...something most readers are unaware of...I believe something you've alerted me to in a prior concentrator.
    Frustrating...I have little patience for their lack of transparency.

     

    Thanks!
    21 Sep 2012, 10:14 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Leaf update. Not much new but it's festering.

     

    Nissan Leaf owners still have no answers from company after dramatic loss of battery capacity

     

    http://bit.ly/Ul7k3t

     

    A little mood music while we wait for Nissan feedback is in order I guess.

     

    http://bit.ly/S9qRGC
    20 Sep 2012, 10:40 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    There's a more detailed story on the Leaf owner's activities in Phoenix here - http://bit.ly/PL2OK4
    20 Sep 2012, 11:22 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Thanks. Interesting well thought out and executed study.

     

    I was pretty impressed that many in the group stayed with EV's/PHEVs even though they felt the leaf had problems with the battery via the study and their personal experiences with the Leaf.

     

    Maybe one could call it well healed determination? Correct at any cost? For the less affluent, dead right? :-p
    20 Sep 2012, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9482) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: Months ago, this blog (well...it was me) predicted in future years a class action lawsuit involving some EV or AGM battery in a stop/start, would someday come to fruition. Looks like we may be ahead of schedule.

     

    The evidence/potential surfacing here and there just keeps growing.

     

    Good find!
    20 Sep 2012, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Maya, I have not read detail on the warranty but if what little I have read holds up in court Nissan has covered themselves legally. That being said, covering yourself legally at the expense of digging a future sales grave via poor engineering does not seem like a good ROI strategy.

     

    We shall see what Nissan says shortly. Perhaps their recent sales in the US will provide extra incentive to do the right thing. A few hundred battery packs from the next model, if they package, might seem cheap vs burning your future business plans.

     

    Of coarse all this is speculation until we at least see a formal response from Nissan. It better not be comparable to the Fisker response for their first fire where they blamed the owner for sabotage. Yikes!
    20 Sep 2012, 12:45 PM Reply Like
  • FocalPoint Analytics
    , contributor
    Comments (5754) | Send Message
     
    Once a high profile lawsuit is filed with respect to battery degradation I suspect the resale value of a used electric vehicle would drop like a stone.
    20 Sep 2012, 12:53 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo
    , contributor
    Comments (351) | Send Message
     
    Imagine buying an ICE car and being told it;s "normal" for the gas tank to shrink by 30% over the life of the car.
    20 Sep 2012, 01:09 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1484) | Send Message
     
    My suspicion is that Nissan has put the battery issue on the back burner until they have sorted out the LEAF's plural and collective noun problems. Prior to solving the problem and the ensuing media blitz, I'm guessing that Nissan is putting a major effort into deciding if the plural of LEAF should be LEAF's or LEAVES, and if the collective will be "a pile of LEAF'S/LEAVES, i.e. there are piles of LEAVES in Arizona with dead batteries.

     

    Apologies for my poor attempt at humor while waiting for action.
    20 Sep 2012, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I like it, a sequel to the name contest for the Prius family.

     

    Fall in Arizona will be permeated by the smell of burnt leaves.
    20 Sep 2012, 01:36 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1073) | Send Message
     
    Interestingly..... the complaints are more focused on the hotter climates.... does it get hot in Phoenix?
    20 Sep 2012, 11:20 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    Yes, but it's a dry heat.
    21 Sep 2012, 12:37 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    OR: When I was young and moving furniture for Allied there, we had over 100 days above 100, a 120 day, a few 118 days and a slew of 115.

     

    Lunch for the two of us that worked together was a large pitcher of beer and large pizza ... each.

     

    And then back to work.

     

    Strangely, no ill effects ... the miracle of youth and extreme fitness I guess. Or maybe the heat evaporated the alcohol right out of our systems.

     

    HardToLove
    21 Sep 2012, 06:18 AM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1222) | Send Message
     
    Same as what Planters uses for roasting peanuts.
    21 Sep 2012, 02:27 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1073) | Send Message
     
    HTL.... no doubt..... the heat evaporates the beer right out of your body.... so it cancels out... that and youth, of course.
    22 Sep 2012, 01:15 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Hey, It can happen. They finally got one.

     

    People are willing to look outside the box when something compelling comes along.....on occasion.

     

    Atraverda secures first commercial battery order in the US

     

    http://bit.ly/UhmQBP
    20 Sep 2012, 11:06 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2283) | Send Message
     
    Lots of background on Zennrg (and their search for funding) here:

     

    http://bit.ly/SF3iBD

     

    "Zennrg, Inc. (pronounced Zen-er-jee) is a start-up energy storage company that is focused on a modular advanced lead acid energy storage system that is extremely safe, scalable and extremely cost effective. The Zennrg modular energy storage units are in production and are rated at 48VDC and 13.5Ah each. The energy storage systems can be assembled by one person and can grow in capacity as the property owner desires with ease. "

     

    Seeking $5 million for starters.

     

    Interesting web site by the way ...
    20 Sep 2012, 12:26 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2057) | Send Message
     
    As typical, total vagueness about technology, numbers, unique value proposition, etc. Best of luck to them.
    20 Sep 2012, 01:03 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Thanks WTB, I guess everything starts with a dream.
    20 Sep 2012, 01:06 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    The daily humor PR

     

    RENO, NV and INDIANAPOLIS, IN--(Marketwire - Sep 20, 2012) - Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. ( NASDAQ : ALTI ) and EnerDel, Inc., two leading providers of energy storage solutions, today announced that they have signed a strategic memorandum-of-understa... (MOU) to co-market and cross-sell each others' product portfolios. Each company will now be able to offer a much broader line of lithium-ion-based energy storage systems (ESS) from individual cells and modules to complete systems that offer multiple chemistries and technologies to meet the needs of their respective customers.

     

    http://yhoo.it/UhA0Pc
    20 Sep 2012, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    The daily survey

     

    Design news is reporting that a new survey of Wards Automotive readers shows that automakers are focused almost equally on improving battery performance, breakthroughs in combustion engine performance, and lighter materials.

     

    http://bit.ly/Qp28e0
    20 Sep 2012, 12:36 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Makes one think back to the last 10Q and the discussions on where all those PBC sales were going.

     

    They should break out classic vs PBC line items IMHO.
    20 Sep 2012, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9482) | Send Message
     
    For our friend, JP:

     

    http://bit.ly/SF6MnQ
    20 Sep 2012, 12:45 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    It should be a fun trip and I'm truly looking forward to ELBC. I promise to take the laptop and try to at least do an Instablog or two while the conference is going on.
    20 Sep 2012, 12:55 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1484) | Send Message
     
    ....and remember to hold your breath while walking on the sidewalks under those bridges in Maya's video. almost unbearable.

     

    Don't know if I ever mentioned that Mick (my standard schnauzer) vomited in a Michelin 3 star restaurant after the sommelier gave him too much too drink.
    20 Sep 2012, 01:57 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    metro, A round trip for the dumbwaiter?
    20 Sep 2012, 02:27 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1484) | Send Message
     
    and the staff didn't bat an eyelid. Of course after paying 170 euro for the meal, I wouldn't expect them to; especially as they invited Mick in and filled him with two large bowls of water.
    20 Sep 2012, 04:52 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    metro, Very professional.

     

    Would have made it bad for the patrons if they over reacted in such an insignificant situation. Suck it up, clean it up and get back to normal. Very good.

     

    Hope he got an after water mint! ;))
    20 Sep 2012, 05:16 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW): Through 12:30 ...
    # Trds: 35, MinTrSz: 200, MaxTrSz: 20000, Vol 122300, AvTrSz: 3494
    Min. Pr: 0.2840, Max Pr: 0.2940, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2888
    # Buys, Shares: 12 69300, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.2908
    # Sells, Shares: 5 33000, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2877
    # Unkn, Shares: 18 20000, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.2840
    Buy:Sell 2.10:1

     

    Asks have a slight bias towards moving up, so far, while bids have been more reluctant to do so until the last 45 minutes when they did move.

     

    FANC is at the front of the bid and ask ATM with 5K on each side (as if they would ever tell us the truth!) at $0.286 bid and $0.294 (a drop from the recent $0.295 as ATDF tried to usurp FANC's position).

     

    Patterns, patterns, ... here we are after the short spike with subsequent bad buy:sell and like clockwork buy:sell begins to improve on the fourth day (based on a quick visual inspection of my spreadsheet)..

     

    T+3 and market-makers rule our venue.

     

    We won't see $0.27 this cycle, as short percentage should start to rise slightly again today as the prior big short volumes have likely been drained via delivery to the MMs and the aggregate short the last three days are only around the ~83K range. This means flow of shares backing prior sales flowing to the MMs are reducing now and they will have fewer to sell into the market.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    20 Sep 2012, 01:01 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I'm not entirely sure that your T+3 theory will hold because it usually takes a lot more than three days to get stock converted from paper to electronic form. If you think back, we've had a couple times over the last year when Axion hit the 10-day fails to deliver list but had no true short position. That's all attributable to processing delays in the conversion process.
    20 Sep 2012, 01:18 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    John: Things change. With more shares registered electronically and (apparently) more retail investors constituting a larger percentage of the pressures, I expect to see the pattern confirming or discrediting develop over time.

     

    Since the ebbs and flows of trades related to traders, investors, market-makers, brokers, ... are so complex and invisible to us, I don't expect a perfect correlation. But if it appears, as time passed, that the correlation strengthens and goes well over 50% I'll believe I have something worthwhile in hand.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    20 Sep 2012, 01:26 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2283) | Send Message
     
    WIll JP be writing on Bloom Energy one of these days?

     

    "The Price on Bloom Energy

     

    Some per-share values for the Silicon Valley fuel cell startup with $800 million in VC cash

     

    JEFF ST. JOHN: SEPTEMBER 17, 2012"

     

    http://bit.ly/SbB3iX
    20 Sep 2012, 03:25 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I only write about companies that are registered with the SEC and trade in the public markets. Writing about private companies is extremely dangerous for somebody in my position. Besides, I don't know much about fuel cells beyond the fact that they've been a great place for investors to lose money when the hysteria fades.
    20 Sep 2012, 03:53 PM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (666) | Send Message
     
    Appears to be another Quercus ah trade. 25K @ 29 cents.
    20 Sep 2012, 04:23 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    JVeal: I think you hit it - 1/11th of 283,205 = 25,800, close enough for government work.

     

    A bit unusual is that the *apparent* "buy in" by the MM at $0.29 is above the VWAP of $0.2889. But that doesn't negate our conclusion or cast suspicion. There were plenty of trades >= $0.29, 100K @ $0.29 and 55.4K at $0.2920-$0.2940.

     

    TG (*not* Tom Granville - Thank Godot), I almost lost my faith in the market-makers' behavior! ;-))

     

    HardToLove
    20 Sep 2012, 04:40 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    9/20/2012: AXPW EOD stuff partly copied from my instablog (later tonight)
    # Trds: 37, MinTrSz: 200, MaxTrSz: 25000, Vol 283805, AvTrSz: 7670
    Min. Pr: 0.2840, Max Pr: 0.2940, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2889
    # Buys, Shares: 18 124700, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.2913
    # Sells, Shares: 16 128765, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2873
    # Unkn, Shares: 3 30340, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.2860
    Buy:Sell (43.0% “buys”) 1:1.03, DlyShts 54400 (19.2%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 42.25%

     

    Things looking pretty much normal today. Short percentage coming back, as we suspected it might, buy:sell recovering, also as suspected, and Quercus was apparently in, as suggested by an AH trade approximating 10% of preceding volume, 25K, @ $0.29, which we think is a “covering buy” by the market-maker.

     

    Average trade size is still in what I judge to be retail trade size and the price range has been stable for three days now with the low going flattish and price compressing as the highs get pushed down. Volume is also “flattish”, hanging around below it's 10, 25, 50 and 100-day averages of 320K, 401K, 364K, and 305K. We are once again in the “wunnerful, wunnerful” land of a 1-penny spread.

     

    Ain't “consolidation” grand?

     

    It's about time for the price to start to recover to a bit nearer the averages of $0.2947, $0.3067, $0.3120, and $0.3360 for the 10, 25, 50 and 100-day averages, respectively, considering the recent short-sales behavior, the new and untested T+3 considerations, improving buy:sell, and low volume.

     

    But I don't believe any recovery in price will be big just yet. No coordinated strength in any of my experimental indicators, or their corresponding averages, is in the charts yet.

     

    The "Dly Sht % of 'sells'" has been omitted.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    20 Sep 2012, 06:47 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Pretty sure this was posted already but in case it wasn't or for those that missed it.

     

    "Rethinking lead-acid for mild- and micro-hybrids"

     

    RFP) for development of a new 12-V battery aimed at micro- and mild-hybrid requirements. Reading into the text, with its limitations on battery weight, the focus is on lithium-ion. The EPS team read the RFP and realized their lead-acid battery can meet all the proposed performance requirements.

     

    “We might be a couple or three pounds heavier, but we’re the only ones who can meet the cost—$260 per battery if it’s located under the hood and $210 if located elsewhere on the vehicle,” Dhar said. “We’re there. And I don’t believe lithium can get there on cost.”"
    20 Sep 2012, 07:46 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (16953) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: where's that from?

     

    HardToLove
    20 Sep 2012, 07:58 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (779) | Send Message
     
    IIndelco,

     

    Where did you get that from, can you post the link?

     

    357
    20 Sep 2012, 08:00 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    OOPS! Sorry guys. I'm batting 1000 of late!

     

    http://bit.ly/PZ9WWJ
    20 Sep 2012, 08:18 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (779) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, I apprecitate it.

     

    357
    20 Sep 2012, 09:32 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1484) | Send Message
     
    Interesting that another former Ener1 exec has converted to lead acid.
    20 Sep 2012, 09:37 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (964) | Send Message
     
    hang in there iindelco!
    20 Sep 2012, 09:57 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    So, is this a real threat to the PbC?

     

    I'd like to know what Vani thinks, too.
    20 Sep 2012, 10:34 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    I think it's a mistake to think of other batteries as "threats," particularly batteries that are at the beginning of a 10-year development cycle. The micro-hybrid sector alone will need 35 million batteries a year by 2015. Since vehicle architectures and performance will vary widely, a number of battery solutions will be used. As Axion stockholders our goal should be a credible share of a battery market that's worth $100 million for each one percent market penetration. I'd love to believe that the PbC could be "One battery to rule them all and in the darkness bind them" but my inner investor will be more than thrilled with a 10% or 20% market share.
    21 Sep 2012, 12:52 AM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2272) | Send Message
     
    Let's hope Axion's decade head start and patents keep these guys from eating our lunch. I'm sure there is room for all at the buffet for all but if these guys raise money on more favorable terms than we do then it does make one ponder a bit. At the very least it shows that others are beginning to "see the light".
    21 Sep 2012, 01:53 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1317) | Send Message
     
    They are at the beginning, when it all seems so possible and it will all come so easily. When the money comes so easily...and so much of it is lost.

     

    Their path has little to do with ours. We are much farther along.
    21 Sep 2012, 02:33 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29176) | Send Message
     
    The other thing that's important to remember in this case is that innovators have been trying to develop reliable and cost effective bi-polar lead acid batteries for a long time without much success. It's a great idea, but very difficult from a manufacturing perspective.
    21 Sep 2012, 04:05 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (775) | Send Message
     
    Good Morning:
    These are our hopes. We need a first-order of BMW, FORD ... RW.
    I also hope that all changed after the 13ELBC.
    Thanks
    Carlos.
    21 Sep 2012, 08:10 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1175) | Send Message
     
    "Lead continues to be the least expensive material used to store electrons."

     

    I hear coconut husks are rather cheap as well.
    21 Sep 2012, 09:01 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    magounsq, I'm starting to perform like the outcome of my post.

     

    The missing link!

     

    Don't know the difference between rocks and stones either. But they both can be black. :))
    21 Sep 2012, 09:52 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8492) | Send Message
     
    Mr. I, I think we have a clue what Vani thinks based on where he ended up for his next assignment.

     

    The article interested me because we have a long time battery industry guy saying that it's not OK to just keep chasing the gold at the end of the rainbow. Use what you have that works while you're going for the gold.

     

    But alas we need.......sales and perhaps a partner or two.
    21 Sep 2012, 10:00 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2463) | Send Message
     
    iindelco,

     

    I hear you.

     

    I think Vani went to Axion because, since he's a saleman, it's closer to significant sales. But since I take every credible threat seriously, and Vani worked with/for that guy presumably, it would be helpful to know the +'s and -'s from a guy who specializes in netting things out. Although I know some of them myself (e.g., PbC has better deep cycle life), I know the value of using experts, so a much more informed opinion of the facts, from Vani or you engineering guys here, would be a good thing.

     

    Update: just thought of an idea to improve the due dilly function: add a conference call feature to sites like this one (or do it independently). Although this blog has been very useful, the "sound bite+" limitation of its format would be nice to overcome from time to time. When I use to perform DD for a living, getting on the blower was WAY faster and more thorough than, say, instant messaging or even email. You could actually focus on a topic for an hour, not just 30 seconds or a minute. And you could get people to say things that they would never write. Point is, the right tool for the job.
    21 Sep 2012, 10:19 AM