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  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3442) | Send Message
     
    Ah yes.
    13 Nov 2012, 03:19 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2151) | Send Message
     
    Hot dog!!
    Congrats 86
    13 Nov 2012, 03:25 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    Bronze.
    13 Nov 2012, 03:31 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    11/12/2012: (AXPW) EOD stuff partially copied from instablog (up later).
    # Trds: 74, MinTrSz: 300, MaxTrSz: 50000, Vol 394606, AvTrSz: 5333
    Min. Pr: 0.2018, Max Pr: 0.2505, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2352
    # Buys, Shares: 22 89558, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.2333
    # Sells, Shares: 50 293048, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2352
    # Unkn, Shares: 2 12000, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.2500
    Buy:Sell 1:3.27 (22.7% “buys”), DlyShts 11750 (2.98%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 4.01%

     

    Interesting day. The below shows evidence of ... panic? Prices bouncing all over the place after a fairly stable morning through close to 14:00. Interesting that even with all this and the large price spread, volume was lower than yesterday's. Could this wide price spread, price instability and slightly lower volume be the confirmation that we have bottomed? Normally we would expect this to have a big volume spike (yesterday's was, as mentioned, a potential spike, but not all that big) if this was the case. But with a lot of shares in Axionista hands maybe the supply just wasn't there at these prices. This thought might be supported by a rise well off the lows into the close. Buyers had to pay higher prices later in the day. That might bode well going forward.

     

    5 trades, 23000 shares, 0.2018-0.2050, VWAP 0.2028, 14:42-14:50
    2 trades, 11200 shares, 0.2122-0.2150, VWAP 0.2135, 14:41-14:42
    15 trades, 92700 shares, 0.2200-0.2222, VWAP 0.2209, 14:21-14:50
    6 trades, 19077 shares, 0.2250-0.2229, VWAP 0.2283, 14:59-15:17
    7 trades, 35250 shares, 0.2300-0.2300, VWAP 0.2300, 14:36-15:49
    3 trades, 6500 shares, 0.2350-0.2390, VWAP 0.2353, 15:45-15:53
    9 trades, 43923 shares, 0.2400-0.2449, VWAP 0.2405, 13:58-15:43
    5 trades, 13400 shares, 0.2490-0.2490, VWAP 0.2490, 09:30-13:57
    22 trades, 149556 shares, 0.2500-0.2505, VWAP 0.2500, 09:52-13:55

     

    On the traditional TA front, we decisively broke the descending support of the falling trading channel and closed well below it. This could be the first pipe of a double-pipe bottom, which would suggest a strong price move upward, although the last one I saw on another stock took a while to come to fruition. It did move up steadily though. The stochastic has crossed up and has exited oversold. Williams %R has left oversold as well. Go figure.

     

    The other oscillators I use appear to have bottomed, but for the ADX stuff.

     

    Daily short sales continue at a low level and I'm beginning to suspect, in the context of price and volume action, that some market-makers either have their portfolios getting “pre-loaded” with shares to be sold or one or more of them are aggressively playing the stock. The latter strikes me as a somewhat remote possibility though – just not enough volume. An occasional play like this by a market-maker or two seems reasonable, but to do it longer-term with low volumes on mostly low-penny price spreads just doesn't seem rational. So the first scenario seems somewhat more likely.

     

    On my experimental charts, any indications of a “stealth rally” have vanished into the sunset. Buy:sell averages falling, average trade sizes continue to weaken now, ...

     

    As I've mentioned several times, the current charts bear a strong resemblance to what was seen approaching the 8/15 report by Axion. If we are indeed emulating that action we can expect a reversal of price action and most of the other indicators unless the report and conference call has some negative surprises or, maybe, lack of positive indicators.

     

    My original experimental inflection point calculations, which we have identified as being somewhat flaky, has the 5-day just starting to roll over after rising and there's no turn in the longer-term lines yet. If the five-day continues to roll over and one or more of the longer-term ones start to curl upwards in the next few days, we will have what appears, based on past behavior of these, a bullish price indication. But remember this is flaky and experimental and we've only got data since last February.

     

    The “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” stuff is omitted from the concentrator.

     

    HardToLove
    13 Nov 2012, 06:05 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    What is the likelihood of the painting of the tape on the open triggered a stop loss? and perhaps cascaded into others? reasonable explanation?
    13 Nov 2012, 08:01 AM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1755) | Send Message
     
    Tim: That was my thinking as well; triggering stop-loss orders.
    13 Nov 2012, 02:54 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    Tim: with the distribution I detail above by price band, I suspect that's the deal along with panic "market orders" being entered briefly by panicked folks.

     

    As of now, I'm suspecting it was planned to fill some orders the MMs had in hand. Look at the recovery and you won't believe what the buy:sell is going to end up at: currently 4.09:1 and VWAP climbed from $0.230x this A/M to now $0.2403.

     

    Market-makers also make money on volume via fees from exchanges, so could be just stimulating action was the reason they (IMO) started all this off yesterday.

     

    HardToLove
    13 Nov 2012, 03:23 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    HTL: I didn't think the MM could paint the tape (orders less than 1000 shares?). Am I thinking right?
    13 Nov 2012, 03:28 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    Tim: we see trades of 100 shares all the time - mostly that's just paint.

     

    It's what I've been calling "lures".

     

    You're likely thinking of the bid/ask - seldom see much less than 5K, although rules require that in certain circumstances they must show real customer order quantity. So we do see smaller bids/asks on occasion.

     

    HardToLove
    13 Nov 2012, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    HTL: Yes, those lures go way back with AXPW. So, the MM can make the price whatever he/she wants it to be and there are no regs against this action?
    13 Nov 2012, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    Tim: I can't say: the regs are voluminous, have many revisions over time, take a lot of digging to discover and, often AFAICT, certain ones are not enforced well.

     

    On top of that, we have to add in all the exceptions allowed for this, tht and the other.

     

    Something as simple as a supposed "T+3" delivery requirement has so many that, IIRC, it can actually take 40+ days for delivery to occur and be all legal.

     

    Something to do with interactions between entities and each has time-frames and exceptions and the parties pass stuff back and forth among themselves and ...

     

    HardToLove
    13 Nov 2012, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    Good morning to everyone!
    http://bit.ly/ru1GhG
    How good it would be able to know more about the subject and meaning for AXION-PbC.
    Gracias-Carlos.
    13 Nov 2012, 06:56 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (659) | Send Message
     
    Carlos,

     

    Good find. I just checked the site last night.

     

    What does it mean? It means Rosewater is following through with previously announced testing in Canada. It means that Axion will benefit from others conducting testing. It also means Axion will be selling more batteries for testing.

     

    Will they be selling batteries for 3 or 4 units, or will they be selling batteries for 20 or 30 units?
    13 Nov 2012, 07:10 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2113) | Send Message
     
    Carlos,
    It appears to me to be a foot in the door of the utility providers. A chance to explore and examine the PbC inside the utility arena. I'm not sure how RoseWater had the inside track to this potential market, but, I'm glad they did.
    13 Nov 2012, 08:13 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    Futurist: I agree and I guess that's why APH put it in the header of this instablog.

     

    HardToLove
    13 Nov 2012, 08:29 AM Reply Like
  • axion-nl
    , contributor
    Comments (181) | Send Message
     
    Nice hammer yesterday.... with this great news is time to slamm through the .35 :)
    13 Nov 2012, 07:11 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW): Axion-nl: I hadn't even noticed that! Good catch. Let's hope at least one part of Bulkowski's analysis is right: "testing reveals that it does (do a reversal) 60% of the time, placing the reversal rank at 26. That is quite respectable. Once price reverses, though, it does not travel far based on the overall performance rank".

     

    http://bit.ly/UlUIZe

     

    I think the "travel far" part needs to be overcome by the quarterly report and conference call. Otherwise whatever is driving price down is likely to still control the action I guess.

     

    HardToLove
    13 Nov 2012, 07:25 AM Reply Like
  • axion-nl
    , contributor
    Comments (181) | Send Message
     
    It strikes me that Maya has to come up with some news, this is the task of Allen Carron. Lets hope they come out with a official PR today
    13 Nov 2012, 07:43 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    Axion-nl: But that was Rosewater news, not (AXPW). I suspect he doesn't do both?

     

    BTW, Bulkowski also has this to say about the hammer. "Hammer candles that appear within a third of the yearly low perform best".

     

    We qualify, although it just gives a reference to a page in one of his books rather than telling us what the odds and ranges might be.
    13 Nov 2012, 08:03 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    Exide has teamed with Maxwell to develop integrated battery-supercapacitor products. I read the announcement as an acknowledgement that Exide just doesn't have the charge acceptance it needs for high power applications like stop-start. Unfortunately teaming with Maxwell won't do the job either unless they use a monster supercapacitor pack that can handle the hotel loads too.

     

    http://yhoo.it/XBklMk
    13 Nov 2012, 08:54 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1539) | Send Message
     
    "The integrated products developed through our alliance with Maxwell Technologies will provide a wide range of benefits for users who require the most that today's battery technology has to offer," said Paul Cheeseman, Exide's Vice President, Global Engineering and Research. "These benefits will include high energy density, rapid charging and discharging, extended operational life and superior performance in extreme temperatures."

     

    Does that last sentence not sound like the PbC? These companies are determined to out-compete Axion rather than do business with them.
    13 Nov 2012, 09:31 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    "Exide Technologies (XIDE), a global leader in stored electrical energy solutions, and Maxwell Technologies, Inc. (http://bit.ly/W5tLuA), a leading developer and manufacturer of ultracapacitor products, today announced the formation of a strategic alliance. The two companies will work together in the development and marketing of advanced, integrated, battery-ultracapacitor energy storage solutions to be used in a wide array of transportation and industrial applications."

     

    "Today announced" and "will work together in the development" ... if I have learned anything over the last while it's that announcements are much easier than the development work. Wonder how long it will take them to get a product that is suitable to start testing for mass market use and then how long the testing for mass market use will take.
    13 Nov 2012, 09:55 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    Exide had its opportunity with Axion in 2009 and blew it by trying to throw its weight around. Let them compete if they can.

     

    The most intriguing discussion in Exide's recent conference call focused on the reduction of their recycling footprint where the CEO said:

     

    "To adapt our business to this new market reality, we are exiting or reducing our exposure to customer segments without corresponding core returns, namely third party lead sales and automotive OE customers."

     

    I think they were just talking about the US market, but saying that they're "exiting or reducing our exposure to ... automotive OE customers" seems like a tacit admission of something.
    13 Nov 2012, 09:58 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4234) | Send Message
     
    ISTM Exide just announced that it does not expect to produce PbC batteries and early knowledge of the announcement could have triggered pressure on AXPW share price yesterday.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:12 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    I can't imagine that any Axion stockholders were basing their hold or sell decision on Axion's relationship with Exide.

     

    The relationship was promising in April 2009 when it looked like Exide was going to lead the PbC commercialization charge. By December 2009 it was clear that Exide was simply a big fish inviting a small fish over for dinner.

     

    By the fall of 2010, it was clear that the customers couldn't care less about whether Exide was in the picture.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:26 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4234) | Send Message
     
    "I can't imagine that any Axion stockholders were basing their hold or sell decision on Axion's relationship with Exide."

     

    If Exide announces a move toward AGM-ultracap pairing does that not also signal lack of confidence that PbC batteries have market prospects? Exide is a supplier of auto OEMs (Toyota for one) and is likely thought to have strong knowledge of what those OEMs are looking at for future products.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:36 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    I've seen Exide's presentation trumpeting the improved dynamic charge acceptance of their MHF battery offerings with carbon additives. It shows two parallel lines. The lower line for their basic product comes in at about 5% of what automakers want. The upper line for their MHF with carbon additives comes in at about 10% of what automakers want. When I get the conference materials from the ELBC (hopefully next week) I'll be sharing that graph and a few others.

     

    Exide knows it's products can't get the work done and since they burned their Axion bridge in 2009 they're moving forward with Plan B. While I'd love to see them waving a white flag instead, that's not the way things work in real life.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:44 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3442) | Send Message
     
    Maybe it's Exide's only move, seeing how the looming EastPenn / Axion mega-alliance is coming right for their throats... ;)
    13 Nov 2012, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    "If Exide announces a move toward AGM-ultracap pairing does that not also signal lack of confidence that PbC batteries have market prospects?"

     

    Just the opposite in my opinion. It means they have a hole in their product offerings. Just like in the JCI presentation there is an opportunity slot their current batteries cannot satisfy.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4825) | Send Message
     
    >D-inv ... " ... does that not also signal lack of confidence that PbC batteries have market prospects?" I see that 180 degress differently. To me, it is vindication that a capacitance storage device is precisely what OEM's are looking for. Not knowing what the range of a PbC is when it comes to the trade-off between energy storage and instantaneous energy delivery we can only guess. The only downside is that it could be that capacitance needs to be higher than what a PbC is capable of, but I would have thought BMW would have figured that out by now and I don't know if Exide has a clue about the PbC performance data.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Exide's move signals to me that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, or attempting imitation in this case. Perhaps means that Exide is not going to be one of our strategic investors.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:53 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    The document I'm referring to (pg 81). "Opportunity" Same hole Exide has. Large scale suppliers cannot live with holes. For their customers they need to be a full line supplier via internal or partner offerings. No salesperson wants to show up and say "I can't help you.".

     

    http://bit.ly/KqgDwO
    13 Nov 2012, 11:59 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    So now of the three largest LAB suppliers in NA East Penn has shown their cards, Exide has now shown their cards. What's JCI up to?

     

    And what about the medium sized LAB suppliers?
    13 Nov 2012, 12:17 PM Reply Like
  • tonys23
    , contributor
    Comments (95) | Send Message
     
    Seems like JCI wants to go the AONE route?
    13 Nov 2012, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    Tony, I think not. JCI already had lithium ion operations before a possible AONE asset buy. They also had a JV with SAFT which they decided to end. The presentation was made with lithium ion capability already under JCI's roof. Lithium ion doesn't yet fill the hole. Costs too much.
    13 Nov 2012, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    My bet is that JCI's stalking horse bid for A123's assets was political theatre to defuse a campaign issue. Now that the election is history, Wanxiang will probably get its CFIUS approval and buy the assets lock, stock and barrel, leaving nothing for the stockholders.

     

    JCI-Saft was the headline ARRA battery grant recipient in 2009 for a $600 million lithium-ion battery factory in Holland Michigan. When automotive demand didn't materialize, JCI and Saft got a divorce and JCI was stuck with the facility which is reportedly idle because the demand isn't there.

     

    I can't imagine that JCI would have a sound business reason for adding another troubled battery manufacturing plant to its collection.
    13 Nov 2012, 12:46 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    Very plausible. The ends justify the means.
    13 Nov 2012, 01:29 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (794) | Send Message
     
    leaving nothing for the shareholders.......... And the US Government aka the US Taxpayer?
    13 Nov 2012, 01:49 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    The Government money built a factory in Michigan, it's already gotten all the return it expected as long as the factory isn't abandoned.
    13 Nov 2012, 01:58 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (794) | Send Message
     
    I suppose that the government did get a few pennies in return in terms of various taxes.

     

    Being a island boy I am out of the loop but it does to seem to be a pity that taxpayer $ has been pissed away for no significant gain to the economy.
    13 Nov 2012, 02:17 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    You know what Bobbie Burns said about the best laid plans of mice and men – you add an exponent of two or three for the best laid plans of government.
    13 Nov 2012, 02:22 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2113) | Send Message
     
    DRich,

     

    " I don't know if Exide has a clue about the PbC performance data. "

     

    I think we can safely assume that Exide knows the results of the PbC testing they accomplished and that they are aware of other testing done since it has been distributed throughout the industry.

     

    Exide had its chance to use the Axion product. It used its power to take over the US grant money and tried to buy Axion on the cheap. The most wonderful flooded lead acid battery contract magically appeared at the most opportune time from East Penn that allowed Axion to survive.

     

    I'm not saying Axion won't get back in bed with Exide as a business partner. I'm just saying that the relationship won't ever turn intimate.
    13 Nov 2012, 04:11 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1539) | Send Message
     
    The stimulus money overall did have a significant effect. Certainly jobs were saved and jobs were created. Viva the stimulus!
    13 Nov 2012, 06:57 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1850) | Send Message
     
    It seems it would be easier, in terms of manufacturing, for Exide to partner with Axion than Maxwell.
    13 Nov 2012, 09:14 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    Elon Musk interview coming up on CNBC.

     

    HardToLove
    13 Nov 2012, 09:46 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2435) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/ZDGxEb
    13 Nov 2012, 02:39 PM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1844) | Send Message
     
    He just seems like such a fraud to me.

     

    The powers that be are sure falling all over themselves to show their great affection for this car.

     

    It is truly the madness of crowds.

     

    D
    13 Nov 2012, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (794) | Send Message
     
    Had Motor trend been around at the time they would have fallen all over themselves when they reviewed the Edsel.
    13 Nov 2012, 04:58 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8655) | Send Message
     
    Or just maybe the Model S is as good as every single person who experiences it seems to think. Nah, that can't be right, must be mass delusion, because that's more logical....
    14 Nov 2012, 08:53 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8655) | Send Message
     
    "The 2012 Deloitte Technology Fast 500 winners have demonstrated remarkable innovation and spectacular growth," said Eric Openshaw, vice chairman and U.S. technology, media and telecommunications leader, Deloitte LLP. "Some of the most exciting and useful developments of the future are being created by the companies on this list. We congratulate Tesla and all of the winning companies on this impressive achievement."

     

    http://bit.ly/T39x7c
    14 Nov 2012, 09:29 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Can we please let this Tesla stuff go...
    14 Nov 2012, 09:41 AM Reply Like
  • BugEYE
    , contributor
    Comments (195) | Send Message
     
    Tim, can you break up with the overly attached girl friend? http://bit.ly/QGsq0z

     

    The answer is no.
    14 Nov 2012, 09:55 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    BugEYE, funny! my vision was a bulldog hanging by his teeth from a rope swing...
    14 Nov 2012, 10:02 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    So was the video – wasn't it?
    14 Nov 2012, 10:08 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4825) | Send Message
     
    >Tim Enright ... I'll second that motion. The stock is a fun trade. The car is nice. The technology is quite questionable as an energy conservation/utilization measure. The company is a balance sheet basket case. So unless something changes on the energy conservation/utilization metric or balance sheet it is of no interest here.
    14 Nov 2012, 10:09 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    So... how about that share price...
    14 Nov 2012, 10:21 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    Tim, I was thinking more along the line of a snapping turtle and a stick. But hey, I'm biased!
    14 Nov 2012, 10:44 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4825) | Send Message
     
    >Tim Enright ... Range bound - $27-$33. Very predicable quick is what makes it a fun stock to trade, but I'd use options and not actually buy the equity. Better percentage return, capped risk.

     

    While I'm talking stock, Norfolk Southern & CSX are approaching some very interesting price channels for both trading & long term buys. Take this for what it's worth ... nada. Norfolk Southern (NSC) in a channel of $51-$57 would be a buy. CSX, Inc (CSX) in a channel of $19-$15 would be a buy. Both are hurting because of coal which will partially recover. Both are "urban" railroads with expanding intermodal facilities so there is a tie-in for NS999 type switchers. Both have very low PEG ratios and reasonable balance sheets for capital intensive companies.

     

    These 2 are the least liked (Canadian Pacific (CP) could be thrown in) by the street. My favorite rail is no longer traded. Kansas City Southern is dependent on NAFTA trade. Union Pacific (UNP) & Canadian National (CNI) are best of breed and pricey. That leaves these two as the value plays remaining for the major roads.

     

    Just sayin' ... not really recommending. I just like the 5 year outlook.
    14 Nov 2012, 10:53 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: reminds me of a Boston Bull Terrier and Collie we had when I was a kid. They would tug on an old wagon tire and eventually the Collie (~60 lbs) would be swinging the terrier (~13 lbs) around in in a circle off the ground with all four legs flat out.

     

    It was hilarious to see - the Collie tired before the terrier would let go.

     

    Rest a few minutes and do it again!

     

    HardToLove
    14 Nov 2012, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    >DRich ... waiting patiently on NSC...
    14 Nov 2012, 11:31 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    HTL: our furry companion is a Jack Russell and is quite the character and I can easily visualize him airborne and in orbit...
    14 Nov 2012, 11:36 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Good stuff. You gotta imagine that cartoon writers and artists get a ton of their ideas from watching events like you describe! Animals can turn a not so great day into a far brighter one in a heartbeat.

     

    Those little dogs like Tim's can really pour on the energy. The enthusiasm is something to behold. The bigger breeds can play along, as you suggest, but only for awhile.
    14 Nov 2012, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (3521) | Send Message
     
    Wow... Buying a Tesla will help up stop global warming too. =)
    14 Nov 2012, 03:16 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2358) | Send Message
     
    Motor Trend's favor is for sale. Place a large dollar amount of adds and win a prize. Also anything that produces a nice cover story is a possibility. Utility to the reader? zero
    16 Nov 2012, 06:42 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    Whew, even I'm not that cynical.
    17 Nov 2012, 12:43 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    If there is enough money floating around where Tesla can sell 20,000 $100,000 automobiles per year (I know it is only the Signature version that costs that much). I would think that Rosewater could sell 100,000 HUB's. Both win.

     

    I wonder how many of the Tesla's are sold on credit? I bought a car once from a repo man who told me that the majority of his repos were luxury cars. The only thing one had to pay were the payments left to the bank, so I got a good deal and sold the vehicle two years later for $400 more than I paid. He told me if I wanted a Jag, Mercedes, or BMW to just give him a description and he would probably have it in a month.
    17 Nov 2012, 05:11 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    If I have to plug in my car every night to trickle charge the battery because it is so old, do I qualify for the $7,500 tax credit for plug in vehicles?.
    17 Nov 2012, 06:34 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    Not unless you live in the US.
    17 Nov 2012, 07:29 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8655) | Send Message
     
    "Motor Trend's favor is for sale. Place a large dollar amount of adds and win a prize."

     

    Any ads for Tesla in Motor Trend? There goes that theory...
    17 Nov 2012, 09:19 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    Nice to see buyers jostling for top position on the bid side, leap-frogging each other.

     

    HardToLove
    13 Nov 2012, 09:48 AM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (792) | Send Message
     
    HT

     

    I put in a 50k buy order @ $.23 and 10,951 went off at .225 and .23 leaving 39,049 unexecuted. The interesting thing is that my order never showed on my level 2? Why would that be?
    13 Nov 2012, 11:04 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2435) | Send Message
     
    It's there now ... on ATDF. Previously, there was a bid at .2301 that was best and also on ATDF, so that's why it didn't show, at least recently. I wasn't watching when the partial fills happened.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (792) | Send Message
     
    Thanks WTB
    13 Nov 2012, 11:59 AM Reply Like
  • Johhny rambo
    , contributor
    Comments (122) | Send Message
     
    I wonder what is the next move down the Axion road will be :-

     

    Acquisition by JCI,Exide?
    Bankruptcy?
    Financing at 15c?
    Strategic Investor takes 49%?
    Big order, and Gen-3 line needs financed?
    13 Nov 2012, 12:56 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    If you honestly believe any of those outcomes are remotely possible you should probably sell now. Then again we all know you're out token troll and have shares to sell. Don't go away mad but please go away and quit wasting valuable electrons.
    13 Nov 2012, 01:30 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (794) | Send Message
     
    JR

     

    I have bids out at $0.221 and below.

     

    I am there to ease your pain. Please take advantage.
    13 Nov 2012, 01:51 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    Johhny, Shhhh. ;)

     

    http://bit.ly/UBcNIV
    13 Nov 2012, 04:11 PM Reply Like
  • Johhny rambo
    , contributor
    Comments (122) | Send Message
     
    Other than Bankruptcy, are you saying, that we are in such a great situation that the other possibilities are not realistic ?

     

    It has nothing to do with me or any commentary provided, that we are at less than a quarter, but let's be honest here, this is not looking rosy, when almost 3 years to the day later we can't even hold the .35c financing round that most all Axionistas were disappointed with, at that time, and all the big investors have dumped us at the altar (save the tedious explanations for sellers reasons, they just don't hold water anymore)

     

    In the absence of compelling information or big $$ orders, I see nothing standing in the way of a .15c finance, or a strategic investment for a big piece of the pie, because the only guy getting rich from Axion in the last 6 years, is TG,!

     

    Call me a troll if you want, but at least I'm a troll with his head firmly removed from the sand, looking at the surrounding scenery,searching for beauty, but finding (so far) only dirt and tumbleweeds.
    13 Nov 2012, 07:57 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1243) | Send Message
     
    TG is not interested in letting go of AXPW as it approaches profitability so i doubt they give up that much control of the company.

     

    how is JCI or Exide gonna get control of this thing? remember how many shares WE hold and realize this is gonna be an expensive proposition.

     

    TG has expressed no concern about meeting demand. if they get a big order it is pretty easy to finance expansion off the back of that...

     

    financing @15 cents. i doubt AXPW settles for it but if that's what it takes to ride out pensive customers then i'll take it. sucks for me today, great for me tomorrow.

     

    why are you panicking now? at least wait for CC then freak out. either we get numbers and news strategic partners are gonna like or it's more rough sailing. if you think the battery is not up to specs or as advertised then you sell. otherwise, buckle-up there will be turbulence.
    13 Nov 2012, 10:52 PM Reply Like
  • Johhny rambo
    , contributor
    Comments (122) | Send Message
     
    Mathieu
    I am not panicking, just demoralised.

     

    Trust me, this thing has to be a 10 bagger from here for me just to break even, so I have a very different outlook than most on this board, who have jumped in of late, most with reasonable pricing.

     

    It's also not a case of not believing in the Pbc, I do, but am also not at all qualified to back up that statement, the big boys are, and they are all fleeing the nest, so that's where I take my lead.

     

    I think we all know better than to have any expectations from the cc, personally, I expect it to be same old,same old.
    As for turbulence , I agree, however, it feels like the whole flight has been turbulent, with little indication of clean air ahead, IMHO.
    14 Nov 2012, 05:10 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2435) | Send Message
     
    Q&A on the XIDE call has a fair amount of discussion of the US aftermarket, lead prices, cores, etc., which may have some read through to the Flooded Battery contract by someone more skilled than me.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    13 Nov 2012, 01:02 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    I think this s/s survey has been cited here before, but I had not seen this quarterly article from JCI about it.

     

    http://bit.ly/X45QBE

     

    Interesting investor presentation for JCI from last week:

     

    http://bit.ly/SK5xF6
    13 Nov 2012, 01:17 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (792) | Send Message
     
    Stefan,

     

    I believe this was also in their other reports but I find it interesting that they are investing big $$$ in AGM manufacturing. Somewhere I think I have read that AGM batteries don't last very long in ISS applications! ;-)

     

    "The survey results support the investments Johnson Controls is making to convert traditional lead acid battery capacity to AGM capacity over the next couple of years. We expect to be producing nearly seven million AGM batteries annually in the U.S. by mid-decade, from a base of zero in 2011.
    Investing in start-stop technology is a great growth and profitability driver for Johnson Controls, since AGM batteries sell for two times the price of traditional batteries with 50 percent higher margins."
    13 Nov 2012, 01:42 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1898) | Send Message
     
    Rbrun, remember that AGM capacity is PbC capacity. To make the switch they only need to drop in Axion's negative carbon electrode and...voila a PbC. We only need BMW to tell them to do it. Simple, right?
    13 Nov 2012, 01:48 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10542) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, Stephan. I only wonder what the following JCI bullet on page 12 means about their stop/start battery?

     

    -- Preparing for significant aftermarket opportunity

     

    If I am correct, JCI asked Axion Power to test their Stop/Start Varta battery, which Axion, knowing what the results would be, then did the testing and demonstrated to JCI (as well as Exide and East Penn of their advanced LA batteries) the Varta would only last 2.5 to 8 months, before being needed to be replaced.

     

    Is this the significant aftermarket opportunity they are speaking of?

     

    <cynicism>
    13 Nov 2012, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    Maya/board -

     

    I know there has been discussion that a PbC could not be a drop in replacement, but for some reason, I thought I heard TG mention in one CC that the single battery version could potentially be used as a drop in ...

     

    Does anybody recall such a reference?
    13 Nov 2012, 03:01 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    I remember TG stating, in an interview, that the PbC could be made to have the same energy density as a standard battery. I might have even provided a link. This was when I was still convinced that it could be a drop in replacement. I will have a look later today...
    13 Nov 2012, 03:33 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    Since replacing the lead negative electrode with carbon reduces chemically active mass I don't think equivalent energy density is possible. Fortunately energy density is not a critical issue for auto batteries which rarely use more than a couple percent of their total energy. While I don't know whether a drop-in solution is possible, I do recall TG talking about a single battery solution.
    13 Nov 2012, 03:43 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2113) | Send Message
     
    Stephan,
    I believe the facts of the PbC as a drop in replacement is as follows.

     

    1) The PbC could be used as a single source battery. The one objection the axionistas have, that Axion has never endorsed , is the failure of the airport test. Some believe the data shows a complete self discharge in 30 days.

     

    2) Often new posters ask why can't I buy a PbC? It is then explained that the PbC is to expensive to be a starter battery only and is not a drop in replacement for one.

     

    3). The PbC has never been ruled out as a single source S/S battery. The argument for the dual battery system is laid out on the Axion website.

     

    I don't recall TG ever saying anything different than I have laid out above. If he said anything about a drop in replacement he would not be wrong. I have yet to see any definitive facts that would rule out a PbC replacing a AGM battery used in the S/S system of a vehicle.

     

    But I have been wrong before and would welcome anyone's comment showing that my memory is failing me again. :-)
    13 Nov 2012, 03:45 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    The main reason the PbC is not a drop in replacement is the voltage curve is too steep. Most applications expect the voltage to be in the 12's...
    13 Nov 2012, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    The voltage curve is steep over the entire depth of discharge but if you keep DoD within a couple percent of a set point, tHe voltage decline is not that significant.
    13 Nov 2012, 04:10 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Really? I might have to revisit that. 12.2v is about a 50% DOD for an AGM. Whats the voltage for the PbC?
    13 Nov 2012, 04:16 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    I'd hate to pull a number out of thin air, but they have been talking about running a 16-Volt system at an 80% SOC to stay in the sweet spot for automotive, which as I understand it ranges from 12.2 to about 13.5 volts.
    13 Nov 2012, 04:42 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Stefan,
    TG mentioned they were working on a drop in replacement with BMW during the last CC; at least that is how I remember it and I also jotted it down in my notes. I just tried to reconfirm it, however, and unfortunately that CC and all previous CC's have been removed from the Axion website as well as their transcripts. I hope they consider replacing them on the website.
    13 Nov 2012, 04:53 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    I think the 16v approach was a very clever idea since the PbC can operate in a PSOC without a problem.

     

    The standard single 12.x volt battery application isn't the place for the PbC (for the most part). However, when you start stringing batteries together then its another story. This is the lesser known story of KIAS. There are lots of applications the use the standard 12v battery in series to create a higher voltage. Higher voltage appliances usually have a broad voltage range from which to operate.

     

    Take the Princeton Grid tied inverter http://bit.ly/TYoZ4p. It has a default DC input voltage between 280-600 volts. It has an optional range of 36-600 volts. What is interesting about the optional DC input is that there isn't a standard 12.x volt battery that can survive being pulled down that far. However, the PbC can and at last count (top of head) it could do it at least 2500 times. In this case the PbC is a great drop in replacement...
    13 Nov 2012, 05:04 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4234) | Send Message
     
    "I thought I heard TG mention in one CC that the single battery version could potentially be used as a drop in .."

     

    Same memory here.
    13 Nov 2012, 05:28 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Stefan,

     

    It was eggwis who actually found the interview/article...

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    The paragraph that I was thinking of...

     

    The company has been producing demonstration-project quantities for about a year and a half, he continued, “but we continually tinker with the product. We can change the plate configuration, the plate counts, and we can move either toward more power or more energy. It’s really a hybrid supercapacitor. We can gear it more toward the power of a supercapacitor or the energy of an actual battery.”

     

    Took me a little longer than I thought it might. Who would have thought that I had 61 pages of comments...
    13 Nov 2012, 06:06 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, Metro & Tim,

     

    Tim, I remember that article well and I have read it a couple times. However, I never made the leap from that passage you referenced to drop-in replacement.

     

    Metro - The only place that I remember the words drop-in was in relation to the CC passage you just mentioned. I tried to go back and check too, but the CC had been taken down.
    13 Nov 2012, 10:04 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    "The larger market for the PbC product is energy storage, but the nearer-term market is automotive, Granville said."

     

    Interesting, I wonder how TG feels about this now ...
    13 Nov 2012, 10:13 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10542) | Send Message
     
    Stephan: S/S will be with both the PbC and a small LA cheapo cranking battery. That's a definite, as I recall. The PbC is not a drop-in idea for any S/S configuration...unless a plug is involved, and I've read nothing toward that end.

     

    The PbC is akin to an addict. It needs power, to deliver power...in order to work at optimum. No power for a month, and it dies...and then has to be recharged.

     

    What I also believe is that the second greatest hurdle Axion has going forward, is what big-brotherly partner is going to make millions of batteries? The first, of course, is who is going to be the strategic partner?

     

    Foot wide chocolate chip cookie to you if you can accurately guess, but I still believe it will be East Penn.

     

    IMO, the grid holds the greatest $s potential of revenue going forward, with the HT30, more so than PbC.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:27 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    As I recall, TG said they were working on a single battery stop-start solution in the last conference call. It was not a drop-in replacement for a normal starter battery, but it was a single battery.

     

    The HT30 is a case size that works well in the NS 999. L5 and L6 are case sizes that work well in automotive. The components that go into the cell are what makes a battery a PbC.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:52 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2823) | Send Message
     
    "I thought I heard TG mention in one CC that the single battery version could potentially be used as a drop in .."

     

    Yes TG did say that and a bit more specific that cars were going to be built that this was a possibility to do.
    Then he said something to the effect, that he perhaps had said too much.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:55 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    JP - when you say "normal starter battery" do you mean a standard SLI battery or the AGM's (some with carbon additives) that are being used in start/stop vehicles.

     

    I agree that a PbC would not be a drop in replacement for a standard SLI battery, but not sure when it comes to a car that has an AGM and start/stop functionality - given the reference to the comments we are discussing.
    13 Nov 2012, 11:57 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3108) | Send Message
     
    Stefan, my notes from the last conf call (3 months ago) include TG's response to a question about what we can expect in the short-run. TG responded: hybrid and all-electric locos, PCs (smaller ones--50kwh and 100kwh) and grid and backup. Not sure if my notes are 100% accurate, but evidently he did not include s/s for the short run. Either way, someone should ask him the same question this time.

     

    Too bad the conf call was removed from Axion's website. On Thursday, I think I'll record the webcast on my own.
    14 Nov 2012, 12:16 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4234) | Send Message
     
    Thanks to Metro's specific reference to "the last cc". I had saved a copy of the CC and was able to listen again.

     

    With regard to PbC "drop in" applications, TG used the expression in responding to questions regarding timelines for PbC use in auto S/S and clearly tied "drop in" to absence of need for structural change in vehicles to accommodate the battery.

     

    On timeline to fleet testing TG stated that required 3rd party testing typically running 6 - 8 months was underway, the OEM could terminate the testing earlier if all results were confirming those observed in Axion/OEM testing, and that the OEM expected next step was fleet testing but no date was set. He later said that since the testing was already underway it was possible fleet testing could begin in less than 6 months (from August 16).

     

    On the Residential energy HUB, TG consistently referred to it as an Axion product and stated that a 3 year full distribution agreement had been signed with Rosewater Energy earlier in the month with volume performance benchmarks specified. He also introduced Joe Picirilli to discuss target marketing of the unit. Mr. Picirilli addressed the product as "the Axion Residential Energy HUB while describing development of the unit as long and closely tied to a consultations with a significant share of the distributors network he had developed in his earlier business.
    14 Nov 2012, 12:23 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    When I speak of a normal starter battery, I'm talking about the battery that's in the car in your garage today. The PbC is not a suitable drop-in replacement for that device and as near as I can tell, that's what a number of commenters are speculating about.

     

    Current stop-start systems have a wide range of capabilities and operating parameters. A dual battery setup is the best solution for the aggressive micro-hybrid systems that automakers are putting in top end vehicles today and for the more aggressive micro-hybrid systems they want to introduce in the future. A dual battery setup is not required for the less aggressive micro-hybrids that represent the bulk of today's stop-start configurations.

     

    Like most things in life, system capabilities and battery demands in micro-hybrids cover a range. At the light micro-hybrid end of the range a single battery solution works. At the heavy micro-hybrid end of the range, a dual battery is better. For the proposed Gen2 micro-hybrids, a dual battery will be essential.
    14 Nov 2012, 12:25 AM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (3521) | Send Message
     
    I hope you do record the call. Sometimes even the transcripts can vary; if/when released. Likely we are either are at a pps bottom assuming a good CC or were in trouble here and the cash burn issue will become forefront. This call ranks very high in importance compared to the others of the past few years - imo.
    14 Nov 2012, 02:28 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    John, considering the "tunability" of the PbC towards more/less power/energy, I'm wondering if appropriately tuned PbCs might be the battery in both cases?

     

    I don't know if there's any performance advantage (passing airport test?) but there would sure be an Axion revenue advantage.

     

    Off the top of my head, I can't conjure up a scenario where the SLI battery might benefit from being a PbC, other than possible longevity.

     

    HardToLove
    14 Nov 2012, 06:02 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    The PbC is tunable, but not infinitely so. You can increase its energy density by using heavier positive electrodes and lighter negative electrodes, but it's a trade off where gaining energy costs you power and charge acceptance. If you want both - more power and more energy - the only way to get it is with more battery.
    14 Nov 2012, 06:23 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    Mr John, good Morning, por favor:

     

    ...more battery. : You want to say bigger or put more than one battery?

     

    ...but it's a trade off where gaining energy costs you power and charge acceptance: No entiendo.

     

    Gracias-Carlos.
    14 Nov 2012, 07:33 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    More battery can be either a larger battery or more than one, depending on your design constraints. For micro-hybrids the best balance is a small cheap flooded started battery and a full sized PbC.

     

    If you think of a bottle of liquid, "energy" is like the volume of liquid the bottle can hold while "power" is like the size if the bottle's mouth. In other words power is a measure of how quickly the bottle can be emptied or filled.

     

    In electrochemistry, making reactions happen at a faster rate always reduces the total amount of energy you can get from those reactions.

     

    As batteries go, the PbC offers excellent power performance, but less than optimal energy. You can only increase the energy by reducing the power.
    14 Nov 2012, 08:31 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    Welcome froggey77! was wondering when we would get a visit in the APH...
    14 Nov 2012, 11:40 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (10542) | Send Message
     
    OT: This stunning card trick, the best I've ever seen, just arrived in my email box. Simply amazing (and hopefully on Thursday, TG will show us an ace or two that he's been keeping up his sleeve):

     

    http://bit.ly/ZDtxOP

     

    (Hint...ya gotta crawl before you walk!)
    13 Nov 2012, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    That is stunning! Many thanks Maya.
    13 Nov 2012, 02:14 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    Some trick Maya. Very entertaining for sure.
    13 Nov 2012, 02:30 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    Plus 1 on fantastic maya!

     

    HardToLove
    13 Nov 2012, 02:42 PM Reply Like
  • Bylo-
    , contributor
    Comments (423) | Send Message
     
    Good CGI.
    14 Nov 2012, 10:32 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1539) | Send Message
     
    Maya has often referred to a Philadelphia wayside energy storage project: A first of its kind wayside energy storage device, funded by a state grant and installed at a power substation on the Market-Frankford Line, is projected to save SEPTA up to $190,000 a year on energy costs and generate thousands more in new revenue as the stored power is resold on the energy market. Viridity Energy is project partner, as is the Pennsylvania Energy Development Authority.
    According to its Energy Action Plan, which I came across today, SEPTA has plans to scale wayside energy storage across its system:

     

    SCALE WAYSIDE ENERGY STORAGE WITH ESCO AGREEMENT
    Initiative: Take findings from pilot projects and scale wayside energy storage across the SEPTA system; package with tunnel and station lighting upgrades to improve return on investment
    Budget Neutrality: Energy performance contracts enable capital projects to be financed by ESCOs based on guaranteed energy savings; electricity reductions from wayside storage and lighting upgrades will finance upfront capital costs
    Benefits: Reduce electricity load at eight largest Market‐Frankford and Broad Street Line substations by 20%, saving 16,113,518 kWh per year ($1,434,103@ $0.089 per kWh, used to finance the project); additional benefits will accrue from revenue‐generating capacity of storage devices
    http://bit.ly/SKq8cj
    13 Nov 2012, 04:14 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1539) | Send Message
     
    More competition for wayside energy storage for trains:

     

    VYCON, designer and manufacturer of energy storage flywheel systems, announced it was awarded a $3.6 million contract by the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority (Metro) to install a Wayside Energy Storage Substation (WESS) at the L.A. Metro Red Line Westlake/MacArthur Park Station utilizing VYCON's REGEN clean energy flywheel systems.

     

    VYCON's clean energy high-speed flywheel technology will recycle part of the energy in the system by absorbing and storing in kinetic form energy regenerated by braking trains in the line and returning this stored energy to trains in acceleration in a clean, instantaneous form. This recycling of energy will save electricity otherwise wasted in the form of heat.

     

    VYCON's REGEN flywheel system captures the wasted energy at cycles as low as once per minute and can scale up in power capacity with parallel systems.

     

    The new WESS system will also demonstrate how it can replace Traction Power Substations with voltage levels support, lower the cost of peak power demands, reduce energy consumption, decrease resistor bank and/or friction heat generation (wasted energy), and lower power demands to the utility during critical peak power usage.

     

    Over the next year, VYCON plans to collaborate with several transit agencies around the world to install demonstration sites that will provide real-world data for energy and power savings as well as validating REGEN's ability to eliminate voltage sag issues, and most importantly, the ability to replace chemical battery-based Traction Power Substations.

     

    The VYCON flywheel stores kinetic energy in the form of a rotating mass and is designed for high power, short discharge applications.

     

    http://bit.ly/RY7A9O
    14 Nov 2012, 03:51 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    Nice article on Mitsui and Viridity hook-up

     

    http://bit.ly/QENlAX

     

    "The firms said the partnership would "combine Viridity Energy's expertise in storage optimisation with Mitsui's financing expertise to support the development of distributed energy projects that feature storage as a significant component".
    13 Nov 2012, 04:33 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    Made it out into the real world.

     

    RoseWater joins Queen’s University on Energy Storage Study

     

    http://bit.ly/W67PPU
    13 Nov 2012, 04:33 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1539) | Send Message
     
    “We are at a true watershed moment that will only become evident in hindsight,” added Mario Bottero, president of RoseWater Energy. “We’re confident the results of this study will demonstrate that the true solution for distributed energy is through a massive network of energy storage units spread throughout the grid--perhaps having one in every home--and not massive multi megawatt centers that further strain the network and create as any problems as they solve.”

     

    I CAN'TWAIT to find out if this is hyperbole or the coming solution. At this point I think its unclear. . .
    Perhaps the most likely solution is a combination of distributed storage and massive renewables generation.
    13 Nov 2012, 05:01 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    I'll be watching for when their hands are no longer tied by the wait for the UL listing. We can't know until then how much interest there is because we have no firm data only some verbal feedback. I'll bet they are chomping at the bit waiting for the first deal to close, if it hasn't already while waiting for the UL thumbs up.
    13 Nov 2012, 05:21 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (3108) | Send Message
     
    Looks like UL listing is something "required" by Canadians, too?
    13 Nov 2012, 05:44 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    Mr. I, Yes.

     

    Here is an independent source that knows different market requirements,

     

    http://bit.ly/THxgHw
    13 Nov 2012, 05:52 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (2373) | Send Message
     
    I was thinking Cubes for developments, malls, even for Wal-Marts (esp. as they are putting alt energy on their rooves. hmmm - not rooves? roofs? really?)

     

    But a Hub for every hut works, too. Put a panel on the roof and get in the groof.

     

    Add a small vertical wind unit while you're up there.
    13 Nov 2012, 05:22 PM Reply Like
  • rgholbrook
    , contributor
    Comments (116) | Send Message
     
    Maybe Vinny Gambini could contract out two yutes to do it for them?
    13 Nov 2012, 05:56 PM Reply Like
  • jpau
    , contributor
    Comments (850) | Send Message
     
    the 2 what?
    13 Nov 2012, 08:45 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2151) | Send Message
     
    jpau,
    A reference to the movie "My cousin Vinnie". He is a new lawyer from New York defending two kids accused of murder in the deep south. You can imagine the culture and vocabulary clash in court.
    14 Nov 2012, 12:35 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    Jpau: "My Cousin Vinny".

     

    HardToLove
    14 Nov 2012, 06:04 AM Reply Like
  • jpau
    , contributor
    Comments (850) | Send Message
     
    Thanks guys, I was doing the judge's line "the 2 what???"

     

    http://bit.ly/TFwStz
    14 Nov 2012, 07:14 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    The problem with movie quotes, of course, is that one never knows who's on first.
    14 Nov 2012, 08:35 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2151) | Send Message
     
    JP,
    We could be here all day with that quote.
    14 Nov 2012, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo
    , contributor
    Comments (353) | Send Message
     
    Inigo Montoya: You seem a decent fellow, I hate to kill you.
    Westley: You seem a decent fellow, I hate to die.

     

    The Princess Bride
    14 Nov 2012, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13589) | Send Message
     
    Love the post, EM.

     

    It behoofs us all to pay attention...
    13 Nov 2012, 05:48 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    I'm not getting into this one. It's over my head.

     

    Maya's still trying to get me into 4th grade English.
    13 Nov 2012, 06:03 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    So is this a new return shipment from Bayerische Motoren Werke?

     

    http://bit.ly/W345mX
    13 Nov 2012, 07:53 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    Here's the info. on what appears to be the older one.

     

    http://bit.ly/ykGiof
    13 Nov 2012, 07:57 PM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (370) | Send Message
     
    My question about fuel from biomass is whether the carbon removed from soil that grows agricultural waste would have to be replaced with fertilizer derived from petroleum:

     

    http://nyti.ms/UFxbmF
    13 Nov 2012, 09:04 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1780) | Send Message
     
    Billa,
    As D-inv pointed out, it's not the carbon but the nitrogen and other minerals that need to be supplied in the fertilizer for biomass fuel, most of which is being produced from natural gas (not petroleum) these days.
    13 Nov 2012, 10:43 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    Billa: more critical is water used. I've posted links about that before. Let me know if you need it.

     

    HardToLove
    14 Nov 2012, 06:08 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4234) | Send Message
     
    "... carbon removed from soil ..."

     

    IIMU that plants pull carbon from CO2 in the air, not from the soil where carbon in some forms help the soil retain moisture and filter out impurities but also boosts soil acidity. IINM, natural gas is used in manufacture of fertilizer to a much, much greater extent than petroleum.
    13 Nov 2012, 09:37 PM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (370) | Send Message
     
    Yeah. That was a senior moment for me.

     

    I'm thinking nitrogen.

     

    Carbon on the brain.
    13 Nov 2012, 09:52 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    Another advanced battery pioneer coming back to lead acid -

     

    Dhar said in interview that his long experience with advanced batteries eventually led him back to the lead-acid battery, a piece of the 19th century that he now believes can be modernized to serve as the bridge between current and future battery technology.

     

    http://bit.ly/ZqwMKe
    14 Nov 2012, 12:00 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    Interesting take on tax payer investments in advanced batteries by a CFA.

     

    http://bit.ly/T2GsbZ
    14 Nov 2012, 12:08 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1844) | Send Message
     
    "Perhaps these accomplishments are not enough, but ‘something’ has been accomplished and ‘something’ represents a positive return on invested tax payer dollars. "

     

    Actually, a 'positive return on invested tax payer dollars' would mean the loans and grants had been repaid in full and that there was additional value produced beyond the initial investment.

     

    Which doesn't appear to have been the case for most of these loans and grants.

     

    And the investment in these companies has crowded out and disadvantaged those companies who did not receive grants and loans.

     

    These government subsidies are far worse than they appear initially on the surface.

     

    D
    14 Nov 2012, 09:35 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    Enersys gets into the commercial energy storage market with OptiGrid.

     

    Energy Management System provides power grid stabilization.

     

    http://bit.ly/TI7V01
    14 Nov 2012, 01:00 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    There's some solid discussion of the OptiGrid project in Enersys' most recent conference call transcript:

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    14 Nov 2012, 01:33 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, Just finished reading it.
    14 Nov 2012, 01:41 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    The most intriguing part of the discussion was the place of lithium. It's pretty clear that Enersys expects lead-acid to be it's go-to technology for the vast majority of users, and that lithium will only be used by companies that have extraordinary needs as opposed to mundane needs. I've long believed that we'd see a market breakdown where the three sigma users were willing to pay up for lithium, but the one and two sigma users who represent the vast bulk of the potential market would go for the more cost-effective choice. It seems that Enersys agrees with that assessment.
    14 Nov 2012, 01:59 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    iindelco:
    Gracias, good link.

     

    Excellent perspective:

     

    "Industry analysts forecast that the global market for large scale energy storage over the next 10 to 20 years could be between $200-$600 billion. We believe the large scale energy storage market is poised for growth in the near and long term and could reach two to four gigawatts by 2016."

     

    Have a good day.-Carlos
    14 Nov 2012, 07:58 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (798) | Send Message
     
    Taken from the link:

     

    ...Power grid stabilization is a prime concern among today's utilities, as they balance supply and demand and cope with issues such as voltage regulation, frequency regulation, peak management and renewable power integration. In addition, power disturbances are a major cost and concern today for both utilities and industry. It is estimated that the U.S. economy is losing between $119 billion and $188 billion annually from power outages and power quality issues.

     

    Impressive financial losses.
    14 Nov 2012, 08:08 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1844) | Send Message
     
    Reading that transcript made me wish there was an Axionista to ask about carbon.

     

    Given that so much of the focus of this year's ELBC was carbon in the negative electrodes, I would like to know what they are doing as a reaction to both the opportunities and threats presented by this new technology.

     

    Would love to ask JCI and Exide too.

     

    D
    14 Nov 2012, 09:27 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    John, Understood.

     

    Perhaps it appeared to be more in favor of lithium given the warped sense of reality one might get in light of the short term government incentives for trial programs. This was also IMHO a result of the media, in most cases, not delivering a balanced view of the sector (Not that that is all that uncommon). Let's see how the market rolls out with companies having to pony up their own cash.
    14 Nov 2012, 09:42 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8655) | Send Message
     
    Another way for lithium to reduce costs in the storage sector:
    http://bit.ly/T3kyo2
    15 Nov 2012, 09:30 AM Reply Like
  • jpau
    , contributor
    Comments (850) | Send Message
     
    One tell I'm looking for this week is who will be asking questions on the call.
    14 Nov 2012, 07:18 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    11/13/2012: (AXPW) EOD stuff partially copied from instablog (up shortly).
    # Trds: 57, MinTrSz: 300, MaxTrSz: 29049, Vol 317942, AvTrSz: 5578
    Min. Pr: 0.2210, Max Pr: 0.2510, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2406
    # Buys, Shares: 41 249537, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.2428
    # Sells, Shares: 16 68405, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2327
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 3.65:1 (78.5% “buys”), DlyShts 79738 (25.08%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 116.57%

     

    I'm feeling better now – shorts are returning towards normal levels, suggesting that whatever was causing, IMO, the market-makers to be long (and likely increasing downward price pressure as well as producing nasty buy:sell ratios) is abating. This is supported by a nice price rebound and a really steady pattern of price and buy:sell progress throughout the day, resulting in a close just 1/10th of a penny below the day's high.

     

    Volume wasn't bad for the first day's price rise following two consecutive relatively high-volume (446K and 395K) down days. Axion-nl's notice of the hammer formation proved prescient. We closed, AFAICT above the falling support, ~$0.2490 AFAICT, of our descending trading channel. All the oscillators I follow, except the ADX and related, have started turning positive and left the oversold condition. Even the DI- component (the “selling” tracker) of the ADX has started to weaken now. Momentum was so far down that it will take a while for it to go positive from it's current 0.8621 reading, sans large volume and price movement upward.

     

    Last note on the traditional TA: I've a short-term (began at the high of 10/17, $0.34) descending resistance which has been defining the falling highs very reliably since. It now forms an apex of a triangle with the falling support of our long-term trading channel. Bulkowski has noted that strong trend changes are noted with high frequency when the apex of a triangle is formed and encountered (during lateral movement across the chart) even if the price action is well outside the boundaries of the triangle. Putting that together with everything else, don't be surprised to see continued price movement up to the interior of our trading channel today. Good volume wouldn't surprise me either – in fact I think we need it to confirm that a turn has been made.

     

    If we had enough time before the quarterly report I would target a minimum move to $0.27 just on normal reversion to the mean behavior. We could do it in a day - after all 8% up from here is, as JP has termed it, “lunch money” for smaller trades and we saw a one-day 25% move up from Monday's low of $0.2018 and ~6.4% from the close.

     

    On my experimental charts front, the similarities to the lead-in to the August report keep strengthening: price action, volume, short sales behavior, ...

     

    Daily shorts moved right past the shorter-term averages and smacked right into the 100-day average, volume is amid all the averages, and buy percentage just leapfrogged all its percentage averages (44%, 46%, 48%, and 52%). Average trade size is still at the lower end of what I judge to be “retail” and still below it's averages. Not surprising, I guess, with the quarterly report so near – market-makers having to work harder with all the negative pressure seen.

     

    If my original inflection point calculations, and my interpretation of them, are valid we have a move up beginning. All the “correct” conditions exist: five-day called a rise early and then rolled over just before the price rise started; three of the the other four periods curled up the following day and I expect the 25-day will follow suit today. It would seem we could expect a price rise of 3-4 pennies if no potential catalytic effects (the quarterly report) were in play. These don't predict range, but I just took a quick look at past price behavior when these conditions were seen to make a guess at what appreciation might develop.

     

    On another note, even with the increased daily shorts and very low “sells” in the “buy:sell” ratio, the “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” continues to support John's assessment that our aggravating big sellers were essentially exhausted, if my thoughts about them being more likely to hit the bid are on target. The monthly average continues at a low value and even today's wasn't outlandish.

     

    The “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” stuff is omitted here.

     

    HardToLove
    14 Nov 2012, 07:52 AM Reply Like
  • axion-nl
    , contributor
    Comments (181) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/ZJ0ae4

     

    I saw this BMW charging! Lets hope that some day there's an AXION battery in it
    14 Nov 2012, 09:07 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    The PbC isn't likely to ever find its way into a car with a plug because its much heavier and bulkier than its lithium-ion cousins; and size and weight matter for cars with plugs. What you really want to see is a PbC in every BMW that doesn't have a plug.
    14 Nov 2012, 09:27 AM Reply Like
  • axion-nl
    , contributor
    Comments (181) | Send Message
     
    or maybe it's already part of the fleettest... I live in the Netherlands... next to Germany
    14 Nov 2012, 09:08 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    Is anyone familiar with the Scura Paley & Company New Energy 2012 report?

     

    http://bit.ly/W7p57v
    14 Nov 2012, 09:29 AM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (2373) | Send Message
     
    It would take a bit of work to become familiar with it. Long and dense but enjoyable.

     

    sigh....Under the Power and Storage section where they list battery manufacturers et. al., no mention of Axion Power. No mention anywhere. Again we face the fact that marketing and publicizing are not strong points.

     

    Johnson Controls (JCI) BYD Co. Ltd. (1211-HK) GS Yusa Corp. (6674-JP) Saft Groupe SA (SAFT-FR) Exide Technologies (XIDE) A123 Systems (AONE) ENER1, Inc. (HEV) China Bak Battery (CBAK) Valence Technology, Inc. (VLNC) Advanced Battery Tech. (ABAT) Altair Nanotechnologies (ALTI) Itron, Inc. (ITRI) Adtran, Inc. (ADTN) American Superconductor Corp. (AMSC) Esco Technologies Inc. (ESE) Enernoc Inc. (ENOC) Badger Meter, Inc. (BMI) Advanced Energy Ind. (AEIS) Echelon Corporation (ELON) Comverge, Inc. (COMV) Ruggedcom, Inc. (RCM) Satcon Technology Corp. (SATC) Ambient Corporation (ABTG) LS Corp. (SEO: 006260) NGK Insulators, Ltd. (TYO: 5333) Honeywell (NYSE:HON)
    14 Nov 2012, 05:40 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4825) | Send Message
     
    >Edmund Metcalfe ... There is a lot of lost money in that list of battery manufacturers. I'm sort of glad Axion is not on the list.
    14 Nov 2012, 05:47 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1898) | Send Message
     
    I don't see Enersys on there either. (Nice pic)
    14 Nov 2012, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2358) | Send Message
     
    Satcon Technology Corp (SATC) is, I believe, in bankruptcy. At least it's stock volume is zero, recently.
    18 Nov 2012, 02:09 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Early, but so far seems to be setting up better today with bid at .2551 and ask at .27 - that is the only depth to which I'm privy.

     

    and now .28 and 2850. hmm
    14 Nov 2012, 10:11 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (659) | Send Message
     
    Looks like the low ball sellers are drying up quickly.
    14 Nov 2012, 10:11 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    Jveal: I think it's more buyers willing to come in. Very early, but good volume, good price with buy:sell 7.46:1 through 10:16.

     

    They'll dry up in a bit and we should drop a little, stabilize and then see some more movement later on.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    P.S.: pleased to see we got my 3-4 pennies already. Bodes well going forward if the Q report/cc is not a dog.
    14 Nov 2012, 10:42 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2435) | Send Message
     
    Princeton Power Demand Response Inverter (DRI-10) documentation is released! This I believe is one of the factors that are important in UL certification, which they don't have yet.

     

    http://bit.ly/ODkLPa

     

    It seems they're focusing here before the DRI-100. I take this as a confirmation of the market that Rosewater/Axion is pursuing.

     

    The DRI-10 (10kW) multiport inverter is uniquely flexible to be more reliable, more efficient, and more cost-effective for various advanced applications. The DRI-10's distinctive E-Quad design combined with its split-phase electrical connections make it ideal for residential applications including residential off-grid systems, electric vehicle charging, and small commercial applications.

     

    The Tech specs pdf was updated Sept 19th, User Manual Oct 5th, Installation Guide, Oct. 19th.
    14 Nov 2012, 10:16 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1898) | Send Message
     
    In the Rosewater press release the other day Joe P said the REH is UL approved -- "The system employs the Axion Power advanced lead carbon battery which ensures 5-20 times the cycle life of traditional lead acid batteries, is safe for home use (UL approved) and is over 99% recyclable."
    14 Nov 2012, 10:24 AM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (792) | Send Message
     
    I also mistook that statement but they are referring to the PbC as UL approved not the complete unit.
    14 Nov 2012, 10:34 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    You gotta like seeing the "lead-carbon (PbC)" as a battery type in the specs...

     

    http://bit.ly/SVvfXs

     

    Edit: and the 36-600 DC voltage range...
    14 Nov 2012, 10:37 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2435) | Send Message
     
    >Tim,

     

    Maybe, although there's no Trademark symbol. The could be using the "generic" term or the strict chemistry sense.

     

    Is Axion going to actually defend their trademark????

     

    And when are the promised website updates coming? I would be happy if they would at least come up to the standards of information that Princeton Power offers.
    14 Nov 2012, 11:05 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2435) | Send Message
     
    Noted in the installation manual:

     

    4.14.3 Paralleling of DRI-10’s
    14 Nov 2012, 11:17 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    >wtblanchard,

     

    We know Axion worked with Princeton with the PC that sits in New Castle so I am going with the direct reference. However, I am left to wonder why the DRI-10 was not selected for the Residential Hub. Perhaps Princeton didn't want their product branded...
    14 Nov 2012, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • Bylo-
    , contributor
    Comments (423) | Send Message
     
    Who turned my AXPW chart upside down? Oh... wait...
    14 Nov 2012, 10:35 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    Sorry if this was posted already.

     

    Greening with Graphene: Using The Wonder Material in Green Technology

     

    "Graphene is the thinnest and strongest material known to man. The pure carbon substance is 100 times stronger than steel and thin enough that an ounce could cover twenty-eight football fields. It’s also transparent, electrically conductive, flexible and cheap to produce – all properties that could allow it to revolutionize a number of industries, including green technology."

     

    http://invent.ge/ZJIEGF
    14 Nov 2012, 11:02 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4825) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... That " ... and cheap to produce" statement is really funny. It might turn out to be true in a 2017-2024 time frame but right now the largest piece ever produced is a 1.5 cm square. The rest has been achieved using vapor deposition.
    14 Nov 2012, 11:12 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Found out a friend's nephew is working on his doctorate at University of Manchester with graphene as the topic of his dissertation. Thanks to this board, I knew what the stuff was and appeared quasi-intelligent.
    14 Nov 2012, 11:16 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    DRich, I thought of you the moment I read the cheap part. Smiled as I posted it.

     

    We're on the same page. For all of us I hope it's as cheap as dirty someday.
    14 Nov 2012, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4825) | Send Message
     
    >iidelco ... Forget about "cheap". There was no mention of "possible", which presently it is not. There is a thin-film carbon material that is advertised as graphene but isn't. More like milled nano-carbon and I expect all sorts of things to be labeled "graphene" which aren't. Presently my favorite graphene research, beyond batteries, trancievers & transistors, is a coating that can turn infrared light into visible for solar panels. Might improve existing solar panels to efficiencies by 150% or greater. Get rid of that cloud effect to some degree.
    14 Nov 2012, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    One thing we can count on - ATDF shows no patience or common sense whatever - must be nothing but intra-day traders there!

     

    Sequential ask step down from $0.2698 to $0.26 over 2.5 minutes.

     

    HardToLove
    14 Nov 2012, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    I just spent $23 to download Axion's SAE Presentation on using the PbC in anti-idling hotel load systems for Class 8 Tractors. The quick and dirty highlights are:

     

    1. Current systems employ up to four AGM batteries with a standard one year warranty, and manufacturers are getting inordinately high warranty claims.

     

    2. The SAE's standardized test J-2185 was modified to account for the differences between flooded and AGM batteries, and then a Group 30HT PbC was tested along-side a Group 31 VRLA from East Penn in a 50º C water bath.

     

    3. After 11 weeks of testing, or 286 cycles, the PbC retained 100% relative state of health while the VRLA deteriorated to 80% relative state of health. Testing is ongoing but the next steps will require field trials.

     

    The thing I like best about this kind of application is that it doesn't take many years of testing to prove that the PbC will outlast competitive products that only come with a one-year warranty. I also like the fact that the decisions will be made by fleet operators who are concerned with minimizing their costs instead of manufacturers who are integrating a battery into a product they plan to sell to somebody else.

     

    Perhaps our friend Tim Enright could give Vani a call and volunteer?
    14 Nov 2012, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    That's nice to hear John! Now if (PCAR) would start testing ...

     

    They make KW and Peterbuilt. Adoption by them would carry some weight and help them maintain their status.

     

    For real volume, Freightliner and add in Volvo and other.

     

    HardToLove
    14 Nov 2012, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (1243) | Send Message
     
    23$ well spent. thanks John
    14 Nov 2012, 12:27 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    John, Thanks so much for the overview.

     

    Here is an area where the testing from inception to integration shouldn't take as long as with an automotive application. The initial roll out can be much more controlled.

     

    And no airport test.
    14 Nov 2012, 12:30 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1511) | Send Message
     
    Thanks John for sharing that.
    14 Nov 2012, 12:36 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    John - Been contemplating downloading it too for the last couple days. I'm surprised that I haven't yet, but keep waiting for it to pop on the Axion website.

     

    Thanks for the fyi.
    14 Nov 2012, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1539) | Send Message
     
    Anyone know the estimated upfront cost of AGM vs. PbC in this Class 8 Tractor application?
    14 Nov 2012, 01:01 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    Currently a PbC sells for somewhere in the $450 range. Rather than guess at what an AGM truck battery costs, I'm hoping Tim Enright will jump in and share his experience.
    14 Nov 2012, 01:11 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    D Lane, my current AGM's have lasted 3 years and are ready to be replaced. 3 years you say? I spent $1000 on 4 batteries made by Lifeline 3 years ago and that same set of batteries will cost me $1200 today. Premium AGM batteries now range from $300-500 a piece.

     

    I think the Lifeline 31XT would challenge (and win) the Enersys PC2150. The price of the Odyssey PC2150 is $475. I can get the Lifeline 31XT for $350. Both of these batteries would have a hard time maintaining performance with the typical charging system in a class 8 truck (no float stage, just constant 14.4 absorb). They also have a hard time in the extreme climates. The price of the PbC is right in there and I am interested in a set of batteries that will life of the truck. I am NOT interested in using standard AGM batteries that require replacement every 1-2 years...
    14 Nov 2012, 01:35 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    "Perhaps our friend Tim Enright could give Vani a call and volunteer?"

     

    I have been on the phone with Lifeline, EnerSys, and Firefly and was saving the best for last. The truck will be in dry dock in two weeks so I guess I better get on the ball and give Vani a call...
    14 Nov 2012, 01:39 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1539) | Send Message
     
    Thanks gentlemen! Tim your 4 current AGM's are in use for an anti-idling system?
    14 Nov 2012, 01:49 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    Please do so Tim. I'm sure he'll be happy to talk turkey with you.
    14 Nov 2012, 01:54 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1356) | Send Message
     
    D Lane, I have two banks 4 + 6 = 10. I can combine or isolate from inside the cab and have an auto function as well. As a rule, they are combined since I am no fear of being lost at sea (combine/isolate comes from the marine industry)...
    14 Nov 2012, 03:15 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1539) | Send Message
     
    If one $450 PbC can replace 4 AGM costing $1400 it should be a no-brainer, as long as the customer trusts that the PbC will do what Axion says it will do.
    No doubt Vani has to deal with a lot of potential customers who, relying on the axiom "if it seems too good to be true it probably is" are doubtful.
    14 Nov 2012, 03:57 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    It will take four PbCs to replace the four AGM batteries used in an anti-idle system. The PbC solution will be a bit more costly, but the cost-benefit relationship should work out just fine.
    14 Nov 2012, 04:03 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1539) | Send Message
     
    Oops, thanks for correcting me and making sure we stick with reality.

     

    So the benefit here will be from increased battery life? Exclusively?
    14 Nov 2012, 04:15 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    Increased battery life and shorter recharge times.
    14 Nov 2012, 04:15 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    Special Sits just filed their Schedule 13-HR for September 30th and their 2,608,000 share position in Axion was unchanged from the June 30th report.

     

    September 30th Report –http://1.usa.gov/T3n3YD

     

    June 30th Report – http://1.usa.gov/RHnOod
    14 Nov 2012, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2662) | Send Message
     
    Now, it would be nice to see if they flip and go long by increasing their position with this weakness.
    14 Nov 2012, 12:43 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (10198) | Send Message
     
    Interesting. Looks like I owe them an apology. Maybe.

     

    Here's to hoping they stay the course, if it remains consistent.... or up even.
    14 Nov 2012, 12:54 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (794) | Send Message
     
    John, as a matter of interest could SS have purchased and then sold additional shares within that 3 month period without reporting that activity?
    14 Nov 2012, 12:59 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18452) | Send Message
     
    Well, there goes one theory down the drain.

     

    Who;s got my TFH that can suggest another (apparently implausible) cause for selling pressure beyond the retailers JP has suggested.

     

    Couldn't possibly be that simple ... could it? :-))

     

    Oh wait! |:-\ What have they done since 9/30?

     

    HardToLove
    14 Nov 2012, 01:30 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30496) | Send Message
     
    Anything is possible, but that's getting pretty deep into TFH territory.
    14 Nov 2012, 01:55 PM Reply Like