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  • Axion Power Concentrator 177, Nov. 18: Q3 '12 Report; SAE Truck APU App Presentation; Rosewater & Queens Univ. Partner On Distributed Energy Study; 13th ELBC: Axion's "Operational Stability Of PbC Batteries And Battery Systems" 328 comments
    Nov 18, 2012 10:45 AM | about stocks: AXPW

    On 11/14/2012 Axion filed their quarterly report and put a news item on their web site that summarizes management's comments and provides a link to the conference call (available for 90 days and worth hearing). On 11/15/2012 Seeking Alpha published a transcript of the conference call.

    Due to an apparent slowdown of the Edgar system, the quarterly report was deemed not filed on time, which Tom Granville mentioned at the start of the conference call. They have filed an exculpatory report of that incident.

    John Petersen was able to obtain and post a copy of Axion's SAE 10/2/2012 Truck APU Application power-point presentation. Many thanks to him for his continued contributions. We see even more cycles applied to the (apparently modified?) PbC # 2 in their testing, showing even greater capability.

    On 11/11/2012 there was an announcement that RoseWater joins Queen's University on Energy Storage Study "... to conduct a study to evaluate the impact of a widely-distributed energy storage system backed by RoseWater's Residential Energy Storage Hub on an electrical grid". "... The results of the study, which is already underway, will greatly benefit all companies and individuals involved in energy supply, distribution and consumption, including policy makers, regulators, electric utilities, and storage systems manufacturers". Other information makes it worth a read. Look under the November 2012 releases if you come late to the party.

    John Petersen's participation as a presenter at the 13th European Lead Battery Conference, ELBC, has provided additional benefits: he has posted, a brief instablog that identifies slides with information and data he'd not seen before and considers important in Axion's presentation, "Axion PbC Lead-Carbon Hybrid Battery/Supercapacitor ,Operational Stability of PbC Batteries and Battery Systems", to which he has provided a link.

    John did a bang-up job on his presentation, in our opinion, and has graciously permitted us to link to a SlideRocket Version of his presentation. It is highly recommended that you take the time, around 20 minutes, to view this if you've not seen it. It is not focused on Axion, but presents some opportunities and challenges facing the LA battery industry at-large.

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    John Petersen has provided price and volume charts updated through 11/9/2012.

    (click to enlarge)AXPW Weighted Moving Average Price 20121109

    AXPW Moving Average Volume 20121109

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    John's Petersen's tracking of the APC comment activity has been updated through 11/17/2012. Up to 35.4K comments now.

    APC Concentrator Comments 20121117
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Links to valuable Axion Power research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites, created by APC commentator Bangwhiz. It is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one, including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website. The first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

    Axion Power Intra-day Statistics. HTL tracks and charts AXPW's intra-day statistics.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!
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    WARNING: This is a troll free zone. We reserve the right to eliminate posts, or posters that are disruptive.

    Enjoy!

    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

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Comments (328)
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  • jpau
    , contributor
    Comments (714) | Send Message
     
    tada!

     

    Looking over the questions from the call; did anyone figure out who Michael Karpoff or Susan Bond were representing? Is it a pretty good guess that H. Berkowitz threw in the towel?
    18 Nov 2012, 10:48 AM Reply Like
  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (367) | Send Message
     
    A close second
    18 Nov 2012, 10:53 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Ms. Congeniality again!!
    18 Nov 2012, 10:59 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1908) | Send Message
     
    Geeze JP. I am impressed by your latest article even though I have come to expect it from you. Good stuff.

     

    I hope SA picks it up but I don't think anyone posted a link to it on altenergy so here it is --

     

    http://bit.ly/U8rUYc
    18 Nov 2012, 12:04 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    My last article on Altenergystocks was in August and I was feeling guilty for neglecting them for a couple months. I didn't plan to write a novella, but it was fun to tie a number of threads together in a coherent tapestry.
    18 Nov 2012, 12:36 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    John, You pulled all that data and history together for Axion very nicely. Given all that's happened in Axion's history I wouldn't say it's too long. It's actually quite precise. Impressive work.

     

    Nobody that's interested in Axion can say "I didn't know.". It's all laid out in a manner that allows them to dig deeper if they choose to do so.

     

    One worm fuzzy award comin your way!
    18 Nov 2012, 03:17 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Is the worm fuzzy award useful when fishing for bottom feeders, or do they prefer stink bait?
    18 Nov 2012, 03:26 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Warm fuzzy soaked in a little elephant gut with some time spent in the sun would work just fine. lol
    18 Nov 2012, 03:30 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo
    , contributor
    Comments (352) | Send Message
     
    A modern-day Bayeux tapestry. (http://bit.ly/U8LP9A)

     

    It's nice to be able to pint friends and family to a new, thorough summary of Axion and it's potential and risks.
    18 Nov 2012, 03:44 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    John,
    A well written article. We've been living through most of the story for the last 2-3 years, but it's nice to see it all fleshed out for the world to read. It's also nice to be able to put the new information from last week's CC in the article, so that readers can see that Axion is making progress into new avenues.
    18 Nov 2012, 10:14 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2558) | Send Message
     
    Thought it was interesting to note that Freightliner, which John said was on the graph in the SAE paper, is owned by Daimler Trucks N.A.

     

    Daimler Trucks also had a representative that chaired the section in which the SAE paper was presented.

     

    Freightliner had $32 billion in revenues last year.

     

    http://bit.ly/109T8iK
    18 Nov 2012, 01:04 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    It's far from certain, but Axion has a history of oblique references to companies that it's working with before the relationships mature into disclosable events. Given the expectation that testing will begin in a matter of weeks I think Freightliner is a very likely first round draft pick.
    18 Nov 2012, 01:19 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    For the last couple of days had thought that a relationship with Freightliner, given their size, was a long shot; even though mentioned in the SAE slideshow. On the other hand, since Axion is already working with an OEM, it would be rather "rude"/odd/unpartner-like to mention/promote another OEM in a presentation. Now leaning toward and slightly optimistic on a Daimler connection.
    19 Nov 2012, 03:27 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Just to flesh out Daimler Trucks a bit.

     

    Daimler Trucks
    Commercial vehicles
    Freightliner
    Mercedes-Benz (truck group)
    Mitsubishi Fuso
    Thomas Built Buses
    Sterling Trucks - operations winded down in 2010, but will continue to support authorized dealers and vehicle owners
    Western Star
    BharatBenz

     

    Components
    Alliance Truck Parts
    Detroit Diesel
    Mercedes-Benz
    Mitsubishi Fuso

     

    Daimler Buses
    Mercedes-Benz buses
    Orion Bus Industries - operations winded down in 2012, expected to close in 2013
    Setra

     

    Could be a star.
    19 Nov 2012, 11:25 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    While I try to avoid religion and politics whenever possible, there are times when one has to show his true colors and say GO IRISH!!
    18 Nov 2012, 02:01 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (824) | Send Message
     
    I wish I could dislike this post a thousand times.
    18 Nov 2012, 02:10 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1908) | Send Message
     
    After two decades of near silence it is good to see an old almost forgotten favorite from my youth league football days having a great season.

     

    I can't wait for tonight when Monster Suggs beats up on maya's steelers.
    18 Nov 2012, 02:31 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    I was at ASU for the glory days of Danny White and at ND for the glory days of Joe Montana. It's tough to be an observer at distance when USC can still play spoiler. I'll hope for the best but remain restrained for at least another week.

     

    The truest sign of friendship is the ability to disagree with a smile.
    18 Nov 2012, 02:32 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    If you want to suffer you should be a KU football fan. They are going to only win one game this year, but expect them to compete for the National Championship next year - especially when they have like the 125th best recruiting class coming in. Sarcasm intended.
    18 Nov 2012, 04:45 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    m.neanderthal---My Fighting Illini are 126th out of 125. At least my mom, who grew up in the South Bend area, gets to cheer for an excellent team this year. And one of my uncles, who also went to ND law school.

     

    And hey, the mascot of my mom's high school was, yep, The Cavemen. "Club'em, beat'em, then we're gonna defeat'em" has to be one of the best cheers of all time.
    18 Nov 2012, 11:36 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    Mr Inv,
    Actually, I'm thankful for your Fighting Illini. They are the only thing keeping my Hawkeyes out of the Big Ten cellar this year. This season cannot end soon enough, but they still have to play Nebraska on Friday, which I'm sure won't be worth watching. Maybe I'll just pop in the DVD of the Orange bowl from three years ago instead.
    19 Nov 2012, 01:09 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Its been as tough to be a Hawkeye ( I bleed Gold and black) as a shareholder of Axion.
    19 Nov 2012, 04:16 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (824) | Send Message
     
    You hawkers fans are sandbaggers. I went to Wisconsin under don Morton and my senior year they hired some young Brash Dc from Norte dame named Barry Alvarez. If wis. can be successful so can anyone.

     

    John, you might be the first Norte dame grad that is modest. Today is a sad day for me. My big ten has added Maryland and will be adding rutgers. Dilution, ugh.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:53 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    I don't know that I'm modest, but I know that I can't take credit for how well or poorly the team plays.

     

    Axion's another story altogether because I made a conscious decision to devote several years of my life to bringing the PbC to the market from very crude beginnings and I know both the coaches and the team well.
    20 Nov 2012, 12:07 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (673) | Send Message
     
    A rematch of the 1980 Sugar Bowl where Georgia beat Notre Dame for the national championship would be acceptable.
    18 Nov 2012, 02:54 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    That was a great game!

     

    I may want my guys win, but I have always respect the guys who do win as long as the game is well played on both sides.
    18 Nov 2012, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (824) | Send Message
     
    I agree with a caveat. Not only well played, but played fairly. Was at Wisconsin vs Ohio state this weekend. Walking to a tailgate before the game hosted by some friends that are the parents of a player who is a fourth year walk-on who has never seen the field we got into a conversation with a nice OSU couple who stated that Wisconsin was backing into the big ten championship game. I replied that we didn't as we didn't cheat, OSU got caught. Without somewhat of a fair fight, why play...
    19 Nov 2012, 10:01 PM Reply Like
  • rgholbrook
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    "As long as they spell my name right..." Mr. Petersen getting some name time in somebody else'sTESLA article and comments.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    18 Nov 2012, 03:22 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Unfortunately, he didn't spell my name right.
    18 Nov 2012, 03:29 PM Reply Like
  • rgholbrook
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    What made it even more ironic is the fact that one of your regular Elonites in his haste to take a pot shot at you repeated the same mistake. The good news, another Elonite who evidently hangs on your every word corrected the spelling in their rant.

     

    Serious question: The whole affair started with the author quoting one of your STREET articles, has that series of articles generated any leads for your business?
    18 Nov 2012, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Writing for both SA and TheStreet gives me a higher profile than writing for only one. That being said, leads in my business are few and far between and I'm tickled any time I can have two active projects in the hopper. I've tried juggling three but it just gets too crazy.
    18 Nov 2012, 04:32 PM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (785) | Send Message
     
    From the last article of Alt. Energy:

     

    "Since the terms of a future offering will not be negotiated until immediately prior to closing, they're a significant uncertainty".

     

    Given the current uncertainty in the markets, it seems that additional capital is not difficult to get.

     

    Again, thanks for the article.-Carlos
    18 Nov 2012, 03:32 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    ParkSmart -- not exactly a drop in replacement but with a little help from some electronics it could be transparent. This appears to be an attempt to insert a bank of PbC's connected in series (KIAS) into a slot that was formerly occupied with a bank of AGM's connected in parallel. If successful this could open the 12v door to the strengths of the PbC.

     

    I don't really consider ParkSmart an APU. The goal is more to make the comfort features of the truck available while the engine is off. There are two HVAC units in every truck; one in the cockpit and one in the sleeper bunk. The ParkSmart system replaces the unit in the bunk and uses a dedicated battery bank as a power supply. This is the battery bank of interest.

     

    ParkSmart press release...
    http://bit.ly/XTb96i

     

    I have access to all the Freightliner documentation and services bulletins and browsing through this information led me to a company called Bergstrom. This company produces an aftermarket product called NITE no-idle which I believe to the inspiration behind Freightliner ParkSmart and International MaxxPower.

     

    Berstrom OEM page...
    http://bit.ly/TS0zXV

     

    These systems are of interest to the larger fleets like Swift, Schneider, US Express and JB Hunt who exit their trucks between 300-500k miles. They limit modifications to the cab by the drivers to keep resale value. This also limits the power requirements to low amperage 12v appliances plugged into the accessory plugs (lighter sockets).

     

    These are also contract carriers which keep their trucks moving which is the key to this system since the battery banks are charged by the truck engine. This is where the wheels start to wobble for this solution. The 10 hour break seems to always be the target but that is the FMCSA minimum. The FMCSA would like to see every driver have a 14 hour break every day. Also, the driver could deliver after 3 hours of driving and wait an entire day for his next load. This means the battery bank only had 3 hours to get charged for what could end up being another 20 hour break. If a driver runs with only the minimum 10 hour break, he/she will be forced to reset their hours with a 34 hour break within 6-7 days. The Hours of Service (HOS) and how they are implemented in the truck is the key to making this solution successful.

     

    The key to the success of this type of system is the addition of another option called Optimized Idle (OI). OI monitors the temperature inside the cabin, the ambient temperature outside, the engine temperature and the battery voltage (temperature compensated). If the batteries only receive a 3 hour charge OI will monitor the voltage and start and run the engine until the bank is fully charged. If its really hot outside and the battery based HVAC can't cool the cabin, then you set the OI inside thermostat to come on at the temperature where the battery system fails. I use OI with a battery based system of my own design and on a hot day I will idle 2-3 hours which is better than 24 hours my a long shot.

     

    I will let you do your own searches on the three products so you can gain your own understanding of how well they are excepted by the drivers. There are other battery based systems and you can find a good list here:

     

    http://bit.ly/XTbaqG
    18 Nov 2012, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    "Did you discover AXPW because you were looking for a better battery for your own system?"

     

    D Lane, I did! and have been here ever since...
    18 Nov 2012, 04:08 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Thats really cool, Tim.

     

    It leads me to wonder, what did Vani D have to say when you talked to him recently. Will he sell you a few bio-carbon beauties (PbCs)?
    18 Nov 2012, 04:11 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    Vani seemed open to this but had limited time when we talked and our schedules didn't line up very well. I will be changing these batteries out and making some charging system modifications over the holiday break. They are in the throws of working on the OEM system and the results would be useful in my project but a bit late for me.

     

    My system is a fair bit larger and might be a next generation for them. I am hopeful that I will get an another opportunity to talk with Vani before I make my decision. We shall see...
    18 Nov 2012, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Tim, Thanks for taking the time to share your expertise, experience and thoughts in some of the OTR trucking electrification areas of opportunity Axion might have. I've always had great admiration for people that have a world of expertise in different areas that are willing to take the time to share. It's a great gift and very much appreciated.
    18 Nov 2012, 05:12 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    iindelco, thank you but still only a small fraction compared to the other stedfast contributors, such as yourself, who keep me entertained and informed on a daily bases. Not sure what is more addictive, the stock or this blog...
    18 Nov 2012, 09:55 PM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (369) | Send Message
     
    Tim:

     

    Are tractor cabs insulated?

     

    Passenger cars are not is why I ask.

     

    AC demands and thus battery demands could be lessened by insulating cabs if they are not already.
    19 Nov 2012, 12:50 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Billa, Most passenger cars have insulation but it is predominantly for sound deadening. You'll find the head liner has an insulating layer. Generally the higher end the car the more there is. They are probably paying more attention with PHEv's and EV's to reduce the load on the battery.
    19 Nov 2012, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    billa, yes but not very well. it is my understanding that ParkSmart models get more insulation to help compensate for the reduction in BTU's of the bunk HVAC...
    19 Nov 2012, 12:07 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    Went to Bergstrom's home page and they work with several OEM's. Wonder if Axion is working directly with Bergstrom.
    19 Nov 2012, 11:26 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    Metro, right, they work with Freightliner/ParkSmart and International/MaxxPower for factory installations . Bergstrom creates the aftermarket version that can be installed in any class 8 truck. A win with any one of these three could spread like wildfire...
    20 Nov 2012, 12:49 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    I love it when you talk dirty to us Tim.
    20 Nov 2012, 01:29 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (785) | Send Message
     
    From the article (Alt. Energy), noted the following:

     

    ....the PbC earns a place in several billion-dollar battery markets where competitive battery technologies simply can't do the work.

     

    In my opinion only Litium-ion and PbC can do the job (S/S) efficiently and and perhaps only PbC.
    18 Nov 2012, 03:49 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    While I imagine some lithium-ion chemistries can do the job, its my understanding that cost and temperature tolerance are major issues.

     

    At the end of the day lithium's big problem seems to arise from the fact that it was developed for use in portable devices, which means it's comfortable at temperatures where people are comfortable.

     

    Nobody wants so hang out and listen to tunes or talk on the phone in searing heat or subzero cold. We like room temperature best and so do lithium-ion batteries. We do, however, want our cars to start quickly when the temperature is inclement.
    18 Nov 2012, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    For anyone following my experimental instablog, a new version is up: trying to shorten it. Don't forget to click on the "Track new comments on this article" if you want to catch any comments.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    HardToLove
    18 Nov 2012, 06:07 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2558) | Send Message
     
    Unfortunately, my understanding of frequency regulation is not yet sufficient to publish something. Additionally, it appears that PJM continues to tweak its methodology. Below are some links from my research if you are interested.

     

    On this presentation, there is a discussion of performance scores in this presentation at slide 52. Axion's performance score is 92.6/100 or .926.

     

    http://tiny.cc/17rznw

     

    http://tiny.cc/98rznw

     

    I just found a webpage on PJM that has audio files describing frequency reg - (all the time I have for today)

     

    http://bit.ly/WmS8so

     

    Additionally, the dynamics of regulation are described in the PJM operating manual at 3.2.2.

     

    http://tiny.cc/g5rznw

     

    3.2.2(k)
    The Office of the Interconnection shall calculate an accuracy score for each Regulation resource that is the weighted average of the delay score, correlation score, and energy score for a five-minute period using the following equation where A, B, and C are defined in the PJM Manuals:

     

    Accuracy Score = max (A * (Delay Score) + B * (Correlation Score)) + C * (Energy Score).

     

    The historic accuracy score will be based on a rolling average of the hourly accuracy scores, with consideration of the qualification score, as defined in the PJM Manuals.

     

    Finally, there an excel spreadsheet called a calculator with benefits factor that is available. I still don't know how to change the url to a short one and it doesn't seem to post for me. However, if you look it up on google, it will pop up.

     

    This calculator appears to take all of these concepts and puts them into a model with performance scores ranging from 54% to 98%.
    18 Nov 2012, 06:09 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2558) | Send Message
     
    Here the performance score excel template:

     

    http://tiny.cc/9nsznw
    18 Nov 2012, 06:25 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2558) | Send Message
     
    Performance Based Regulation FAQ

     

    http://tinyurl.com/a4g...
    18 Nov 2012, 09:03 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2558) | Send Message
     
    From 10/1 -10/14, Performance Scores ranged from 40% to 98%, reflecting the ability of each resource to follow the regulation control signals.

     

    http://tinyurl.com/d88...

     

    Not sure how many players there are or how many players have Performance Scores better than .926.
    18 Nov 2012, 10:25 PM Reply Like
  • BugEYE
    , contributor
    Comments (191) | Send Message
     
    Sorry, I am a noob to the frequency regulation market.
    What does $38.05/MW in slide 2 mean?
    Does it mean PJM pay an average $38.05/MW for 5-minute frequency regulation service? Then with 92/100 score, AXPW may get paid near 50 bucks/MW per 5-minute service, which seems economical to me.

     

    Also I think the most important problem is not the score, but the cost and lifetime cost spent to achieve that score.
    19 Nov 2012, 02:17 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2558) | Send Message
     
    BugEYE -

     

    I am not exactly sure that's the problem for me. I think I understand all the different concepts and equations by themselves, but I have not been able to link them all together yet.

     

    From TG's explanation, if $38.05 is the base rate that is being paid, then it would be multiplied by 1.92, which would equal $73.28 per MW that Axion would receive for its performance.

     

    However, I don't think that takes into account all the different factors.
    19 Nov 2012, 08:55 AM Reply Like
  • User432382
    , contributor
    Comments (80) | Send Message
     
    Anybody think our first strategic investor could be the yet-to-be-named contract manufacturer? They could put up their own money to transfer manufacturing, Just thought the wording "...further align with the company's long-term strategy" was interesting.

     

    "Capital will also be required to transition manufacturing of complex power-storage systems to a major US contract manufacturer. That manufacturer will be fully capable of ramping up Cube and Hub manufacturing to meet future demand, take full advantage of economies of scale and further align with the company's long-term strategy."
    18 Nov 2012, 07:35 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1908) | Send Message
     
    User, That was my initial thought as well, seems like a sensible avenue especially if the majority of near term work is going to be these HUB's and PC's.
    18 Nov 2012, 07:42 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    User43, I'd not bet on a contract manufacturer being interested in becoming a strategic investor. Most run pretty lean.
    19 Nov 2012, 10:49 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    Anyone have any success in downloading the webcast mp3 of last week's CC and actually getting it to play? I've been able to download it seemingly okay, but only get errors when I try to play it...
    18 Nov 2012, 08:03 PM Reply Like
  • pascquale
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    Mr 48...
    Seems to be playing for me.
    I also noticed that I have a saved Axion120816.mp3 file, seems that others were wishing they had saved it. I don't know how to make it available to anyone, I think yahoo and gmail block me from sending files of that size (21,107KB for August).
    18 Nov 2012, 09:30 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    pascquale... thanks for the response... I'm able to stream and play it, and save the mp3, but when I try to play the saved mp3, I get an error... I've saved them in the past and they've played no problem... I'll keep monkeying with it.. thanks again...

     

    v/r
    18 Nov 2012, 09:32 PM Reply Like
  • BugEYE
    , contributor
    Comments (191) | Send Message
     
    I dowloaded it a few days ago without problem and listened for about 10 minutes. Then I found the transcript from SA.
    18 Nov 2012, 09:37 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3934) | Send Message
     
    No problem in playing the downloaded cc mp3.
    18 Nov 2012, 10:39 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >pascquale ... You can install & upload it to "Dropbox" and provide a link to whoever you want up to 2Gig for free.

     

    Download link follows: http://bit.ly/XtKuht
    19 Nov 2012, 03:44 PM Reply Like
  • pascquale
    , contributor
    Comments (94) | Send Message
     
    DRich,
    Thanks. My memory may be wrong as far as people missing that CC, I'll try this dropbox think if anyone says they want it.
    19 Nov 2012, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    Forgot to mention until now:
    I was glad to hear during the CC TG reitterating that Viridity remains a strategic partner. I was a little concerned how their relationship with Mitsui would affect the partnership.
    19 Nov 2012, 03:40 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    Now in HTL mode where I'm answering and following up on my own postings about the CC:
    Kudos to Axion’s production team, whose continued phenomenal success rate will allow the marketing team to move forward with the big and small players:
    “Incidentally as a side here, we received a perfect grade from our customer for delivery on time, on returns, there hasn’t been one warranty item on the batteries that we've made that have been returned to us and so those things all require capital and we knew that.”
    Food for consideration, or maybe not:
    “Now when you get to a plugin or an all-electric vehicle, we are not the answer right now.”
    If wonder if “right now” may imply that Axion is researching future technologies with the PbC that would allow it to have more energy with a smaller size and weight where it might compete for a spot in the plug market.

     

    Obsessed, Diasecting, and Hanging on Every Word that TG Utters,
    Metroneanderthal
    19 Nov 2012, 06:40 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Hello fellow Axionistas,

     

    Wow, a fella goes off on Thursday to get formally married over the weekend ( the love of my life has been my partner for 8 years and I have referred to as wife for that long) and he comes back to find 300 posts and a CC transcript. Fun catching up.

     

    Tim,
    Thanks for all the postings on the class 8 trucks. I suspect that the market is very large, but will take time to grow. A late 2013 event at best for the bottom line. Exciting market however.

     

    TG seemed tentative when talking about the railroads. He had his hand slapped somewhere. Hopefully we can get the little yard slug working and PROVING the merits of the PbC.

     

    TG seemed a tad upset about the slowness of BMW. Again we need to get the batteries out there proving themselves.

     

    My stockholdings of ZBB have shown me to add at least 6 months to any UL approval forecast by any company. HUB to be a mid year 2013 event in my book. I did like the idea of "offshore" sales of the hub pre UL approval. However that really isn't RoseWaters forte. There background ,I thought , was US homebuilders. Hope on wrong but again I'm looking at mid 2013 for sales to hit the books.
    I thought the most exciting aspect of the call was finally having a utility discussion. Viridity is a go. The Cube works and can make inroads in the micro-grid market. Other utilities looking at the product.
    I'm pretty excited as always about the future. I like everythings thats happening. Wish it were quicker. But I will take the positives with no negatives anyday.
    19 Nov 2012, 10:19 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Congratulations Futurist!

     

    I hope your life together is long, happy and prosperous.
    19 Nov 2012, 10:35 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1908) | Send Message
     
    I trust your vows included "for rich or for Axion"

     

    Congratulations!
    19 Nov 2012, 10:54 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Congratulations Futurist! Many more happy and prosperous years for you and your sweetheart.
    19 Nov 2012, 10:59 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    Congrats Furturist. Wish you a long and happy marriage.

     

    HardToLove
    19 Nov 2012, 01:10 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the comments, Futurist.
    The thing that is exciting about the offshore reference to island republics is that the price of electricity tends to be much higher on an island (see Bermuda) and the urgency to invest in renewables plus storage/regulation is greater.
    19 Nov 2012, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (696) | Send Message
     
    $0.43/Kwhr!
    19 Nov 2012, 02:22 PM Reply Like
  • JohnM121
    , contributor
    Comments (359) | Send Message
     
    This group specializes in identifying falsehood and has members obsessed to finding and linking together hidden relationships. Is this what made you become an honest man, or was it her half of of the Axion shares?
    Fear and greed is what gets us up in the morning.
    19 Nov 2012, 02:53 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    JohnM121,
    Nah, none of that. Its just after 8 years of persistence she finally said yes.

     

    Its fear and greed that gets me up in the morning.
    19 Nov 2012, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1417) | Send Message
     
    Congratulations. I am happy for you and wish you the best in the future.
    19 Nov 2012, 07:28 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    Good to know you finally wore her down! :-) Congrats!
    19 Nov 2012, 09:58 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    Congratulations to you and Mrs. Futurist!
    19 Nov 2012, 11:25 PM Reply Like
  • Articula
    , contributor
    Comments (245) | Send Message
     
    Congrats Futurist!
    19 Nov 2012, 10:24 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Articula,

     

    But being Congratulated for getting lucky is really not necessary.
    19 Nov 2012, 10:29 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    It's been said that luck is the meeting of preparation and opportunity... and while that's true, it still takes execution---the fateful turning of the key. Truly the essential ingredient. Deepest congrats, sir.
    19 Nov 2012, 11:31 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    You are only lucky guy Futurist! and congratulations for being so lucky!
    19 Nov 2012, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Chicago awards $13.4M contract to Motiv Power Systems for 20 Class 8 electric refuse trucks

     

    "Motiv has been validating its ePCS since March 2012 with an all-electric pilot bus. Funded by a grant from the California Energy Commission, the 20 passenger bus contains 5 battery packs (125 kWh) which can provide a range of more than 120 miles on a single charge."

     

    Jeez, That's all I can say.

     

    I think the first commenter on the article has got it covered.

     

    http://bit.ly/UQz9Gz
    19 Nov 2012, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Yet another proof that electric drive is most appealing to the mathematically challenged.
    19 Nov 2012, 12:00 PM Reply Like
  • JohnM121
    , contributor
    Comments (359) | Send Message
     
    "The city ultimately found that its garbage routes did not enable hybrid or CNG vehicles to be financially viable"

     

    Then the comment from Kelley calculates a payback from the electric to be 469,000 to 670,000 miles. I wonder what the methane trucks cost? The answer, of course, is that someone else paid for them, so that is not in the city's calculation.

     

    Any time you see a Leaf or a Volt, remember to tell them they are welcome. ($7500 taxpayer consumer subsidy)
    19 Nov 2012, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    JohnM: I notice our refuse trucks are NG now. Quite quiet compared to the old units. Since it's a private outfit, I have confidence the economics made sense along with the "green creds".

     

    I assume Chicago has something unique, other than their style of politics, that makes the NG units difficult to justify?

     

    HardToLove
    19 Nov 2012, 01:45 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    "Then the comment from Kelley calculates a payback from the electric to be 469,000 to 670,000 miles."

     

    Then the comment from DaveD correctly points out that Kelly forgot to subtract the purchase price of a conventional truck, and showed data that a garbage truck spends around $200,000 per year on fuel.
    20 Nov 2012, 08:30 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Jrp3

     

    "Then the comment from DaveD correctly points out that Kelly forgot to subtract the purchase price of a conventional truck, and showed data that a garbage truck spends around $200,000 per year on fuel."

     

    <<I don't know the price of refuse trucks, but I know that some city buses can cost over $200k. I also found that the average refuse truck travels 25,000 miles per year and uses 5,000 gallons of diesel. http://1.usa.gov/T2ASD4

     

    So that means they spend about $200k a year on fuel. Assuming the electricity they would need costs about $50K a year, then that is another $150K/yr in savings.

     

    They also have lower maintenance overall so it would be easy to see a 3-4 year pay back.>>

     

    Lets see.
    $200,000 / 5,000 = $40.00 a gallon
    Mighty expensive diesel fuel he correctly pointed out.
    Only off by a factor of 10.
    $15,000 a year savings not $150,000.

     

    Lets see what else did he correctly pointed out.

     

    <I also found that the average refuse truck travels 25,000 miles per year.>

     

    The electric dump truck can only travel 60 miles a charge.
    60 x 50 x 5 days a week = 15,000 miles.
    A bit short.
    20 Nov 2012, 09:13 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    Ouch, I should have looked closer at that one, thanks for the correction. I would point out that there is no reason the truck could not recharge during breaks to increase it's daily mileage.
    21 Nov 2012, 08:57 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    Prices of some garbage trucks.

     

    http://bit.ly/Uf0Qqj

     

    If sort by price, highest first, there are some 2011 and 2012 (a new Mack) models for about $200,000.

     

    If the linked prices are any indication, there would have to be a lot of positive externalities to warrant paying +$500,000 each.

     

    "If Chicago ever wants newer batteries, the old ones can be easily swapped out." And I'll bet it is cheap too.
    21 Nov 2012, 09:16 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    Breaks?

     

    Do you know the duty cycle (500-1500 high current starts per day) of a garbage truck? Does your Li-on calculation include the running of hydraulic pumps for the compactor? Does it include the operation of the hydraulic container (household or dumpster) retrieval arm?

     

    There is more to the life of a garbage truck than rolling back & forth to the dump. I've no interest in the particulars but I'd think it a particularly bad, maybe the worst, scenario for EV.
    21 Nov 2012, 09:21 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Sounds like your municipal leaders need to bang their heads on a cement sidewalk a few times and do some Chicago math.
    21 Nov 2012, 10:03 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    The will want to cycle the truck's battery hard--to extract maximum value.
    21 Nov 2012, 10:29 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    DRich, obviously the range projected for the vehicles includes all loads. Indeed, it may not be a good application for the technology.
    22 Nov 2012, 10:33 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Article on automotive sensors and electronics.

     

    Getting smarter

     

    " CiE: Looking into the future how is the automotive sector likely to develop over the coming 5 years?

     

    Gessner: We think that there will be a battle of powertrain technologies until 2020. We also believe that up to then, fewer than 10% of all vehicles will be EVs and HEVs. The main challenge for E-Mobility is still the battery, in particular the low range, safety and size. Pure battery EVs will be limited to city driving. Extended range electric vehicles allow very flexible usage, and can be the first vehicle in a family."

     

    http://bit.ly/ZZSCog
    19 Nov 2012, 01:26 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Meeting 2025 fuel standards called possible

     

    ""It's a tremendous challenge," said Tom Apostolos, president of Ricardo America. It will require a lot of innovation right down to the smallest gasket or piston ring.

     

    "No single technology will achieve 54.5 m.p.g.," said Mark Kuhn, manager of Ricardo Strategic Consulting. "We won't see a lot of new technology in the next 10-15 years. Instead, it will be a rollout of existing technology."

     

    Most solutions are in production, but in relatively small quantities.

     

    They include: smaller-displacement engines with direct-injection, turbo and supercharging, dual-clutch, multi-speed transmissions, lighter-weight materials, better aerodynamics, nearly frictionless tires, new fuels, advanced thermal systems, start-stop systems and longer-range, less-expensive batteries.

     

    The industry will reach a crucial checkpoint in 2016, when the regulations require new vehicle fleets to average 35.5 m.p.g., up from 27.3 now."

     

    http://bit.ly/ZZY3nh
    19 Nov 2012, 01:45 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    I have to wonder how well "frictionless" tires will work on icy roads in the winter?
    19 Nov 2012, 03:24 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    At the hub man, at the hub! ;) Well okay also the deformation where the rubber hits the road...
    19 Nov 2012, 03:29 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    LabTech: that refers to rolling resistance, not traction characteristics.

     

    Generally stiffer sidewalls and less deformation of the tread at the contact patch. This implies harder rubber as well, so there might be some loss of traction on some conditions. But IIRC, traction is all about "hysteresis" and some of that has more to do with tread design, IIRC.

     

    Not expert in that area though.

     

    HardToLove
    19 Nov 2012, 03:33 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    LabTech, the rolling resistance has been a key factor in my tire purchasing for some time now (I always buy the least resistance). I have not experienced any noticeable loss of traction in the snow and ice but I put a lot of weight down on the road so passenger cars might have their limits.
    19 Nov 2012, 03:53 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    excellent observation
    19 Nov 2012, 10:14 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    In the category of a good idea if you have unlimited water at $5/1000 gallons, here's an article about using water on a building's roof to reduce the amount of AC needed to cool the building. Seems like a great idea cost wise, except that you need 10,000 gallons of water/day for the size roof they are talking about. I don't know about where you all live, but Durham only lets you water your lawn every other day, for a limited amount of time, to conserve water. I can't see them letting local business just evaporate it off their roofs.

     

    http://bit.ly/XWpgrr
    19 Nov 2012, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (696) | Send Message
     
    $80.00/1,000 US gallons delivered by truck to your address in Bermuda. Every home and business must harvest rainwater and store in in cisterns under the building.
    19 Nov 2012, 02:29 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Labtech, Near the Great Lakes water is cheap and I've often thought about using water as a heat sink for the air conditioner. It's pretty cool well into the summer. Never did it because the number of days/year required with a yard full of mature trees doesn't have the air on too often. Plus most often the nights cool down well.

     

    But it would be easy to do. Just pull the fan unit off the heat exchanger and put the heat exchanger it in a tank. Monitor water temperature in the tank and control it like a toilet with temperature vs waste being the exchange signal. Use the warm waste water for the lawn.
    19 Nov 2012, 02:48 PM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (871) | Send Message
     
    That will work great for about 2 months before the calcium and mangnesum carbonates completely clog the heat exchanger. Dissolved carbonates are less soluble with heat, hence you get deposition at the heat source. You would need a closed circulating system with distilled water, similar to a car radiator if you want to water cool something without the scale buildup. Or, flush the system with so much water that there is no opportunity for buildup, which gets expensive in terms of water use.
    19 Nov 2012, 05:08 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    nogoodslacker, Thanks.

     

    So maybe I have to go out once a year, in my climate, if I chose to implement this and spray the heat exchanger down with vinegar? It's on the ground anyway. And the lawn wouldn't care as the soil wants to be slightly acidic anyway.

     

    Actually hadn't given this too much personal consideration as the climate is moderate here (pretty humid at times though). But I do note that many people run their air far far more than I do and if I was them I'd take a crack at it. There is just so much energy in the water to harvest and the people are just dumping it on their lawns anyway.
    19 Nov 2012, 06:02 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2389) | Send Message
     
    Music to watch AXPW Level II by: http://bit.ly/10016Mj
    19 Nov 2012, 01:54 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    Wtb: Man, Morgan Freeman could be a double for him.

     

    HardToLove
    19 Nov 2012, 01:56 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    More energy harvesting during coasting and warm fuzzies from your car.

     

    "Ford has also introduced Auto-Start-Stop to more Fiesta variants. This feature automatically shuts down the engine when the vehicle is at idle and restarts it when the driver wants to move off. Smart Regenerative Charging reduces engine wear and tear by selectively engaging the alternator and charging the battery when the vehicle is coasting and braking."

     

    "Ford has extended across the range the ECOnetic Technology EcoMode coaching system that rewards drivers for using fuel-efficient driving techniques by displaying up to five "petals" on each of three "flowers" that represent gear-shifting, speed and anticipation. Ford customer training has found that eco-driving skills can result in 10 per cent long-term fuel savings."

     

    http://bit.ly/TbUQi8
    19 Nov 2012, 01:57 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (797) | Send Message
     
    It looks like NITE is sitting on another bunch of shares at $.25 again!
    19 Nov 2012, 02:18 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Looks like 0.25 USD is fair value for Axion. ;)) Well until someone wakes up.
    19 Nov 2012, 02:52 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    RBrun: I don't think so. I think that batch over 45 minutes that never moved the needle was intra or inter-broker trades that went righ around the market-makers we see at the top.

     

    Recall that the links JAK posted recently remind that they can still pick up the phone. And with "captive" market-makers being (seemingly) a standard feature of every broker now, this (inter/intra broker trades) seems more likely to me.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    19 Nov 2012, 03:05 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2389) | Send Message
     
    Today I see a change to minimum number of shares to show on Level II from 5000 down to 2500

     

    Tried to find an announcement, but a quick and dirty Google search didn't do the job

     

    The number of shares required varies with the stock price
    19 Nov 2012, 02:29 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2389) | Send Message
     
    Here's the new table: http://bit.ly/100luwG
    19 Nov 2012, 02:59 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    Wtb: but only NITE and TEJS, in the top ones shown, have this unit ATM.

     

    On the bid side, NITE just put up 5K at $0.2475.

     

    I wonder if NITE's just playing on the ask side to make folks think there's not much selling interest @ $0.25 and there's more buying pressure on the bid side.

     

    We'll never know,

     

    HardToLove
    EDIT: NITE bid @ $0.2475 just went away.
    EDIT2: ATDF fills in w/2.5K @ $0.2475 and goes away immediately, apparently the customer decided $0.25 was good because a trade of 2.5K went there.
    19 Nov 2012, 03:11 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9598) | Send Message
     
    wtb: I posted something about this new quote size coming months ago, and just gave up tasking back through all of my comments since the beginning of July...without luck. Recall doing some math with AXPW being 30 cents and 2500 shares would be a $750 minimum bid/sell.

     

    About 45 minutes down the drain!.

     

    Thanks for coming up with that table. I should have been putting up outside Christmas decorations during this gorgeous November day!

     

    ####

     

    Congrats, Futurist!

     

    ####

     

    jarkutz: Tomlin's game management about calling a time out at 2 minutes, 3 seconds left in the game was terrible clock management. He wasted his last timeout. How could Collinsworth miss that one? Charlie Batch should have been the starter. And I am beyond incredulous that Tomlin didn't yank Leftwich after that first drive TD run. It was obvious that he lost arm strength; his throwing shoulder was hurt. Steeler Nation is going bonkers as to why Tomlin left him in, after so many throws fell far short throughout the game, especially late in the game.

     

    Tomlin gets a F for coaching.

     

    Congrats on the Ravens win.
    19 Nov 2012, 03:20 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1140) | Send Message
     
    HTL: That's me moving the Bid.... I'm testing how strong the resolve is around .25c.... It appears *very* strong
    19 Nov 2012, 03:22 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    nice bit of research, thanks wt.
    IMHO this reduction in minimum number of shares reported tends to obfuscate the market instead of make it more transparent. Maybe that is the objective.
    19 Nov 2012, 03:26 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    O.R: Ah!

     

    HardToLove
    19 Nov 2012, 03:52 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1908) | Send Message
     
    It is always a great game to watch (although a little ugly for both sides last night) and the steelers are competitive no matter who is playing what position. They just have a great culture to how they play the game...so, while i love to hate'em, I still respect'em.
    19 Nov 2012, 04:50 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    O.R.- resolve to buy or resolve to sell is strong around .25?
    19 Nov 2012, 07:46 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    D Lane: I think what he would conclude is that it's resolve to "not sell below $0.25", maybe a slightly different question answered. At least that's what I would prefer to believe! :-)

     

    HardToLove
    20 Nov 2012, 05:12 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    HTL, excellent!
    20 Nov 2012, 09:25 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2389) | Send Message
     
    Maya: it was originally scheduled for Mon. Nov 5, but delayed due to Sandy. This article says it was rescheduled for Nov 12, but I didn't notice it till yesterday (the 19th)

     

    This article has both the old and new tables ... there were a number of changes including for higher priced stocks:

     

    http://bit.ly/TdV0Vr

     

    Seems better for the smaller investor who might want to buy or sell just a few shares of a very expensive stock.
    20 Nov 2012, 10:19 AM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1140) | Send Message
     
    D Lane: Sorry for the late response.... that'd be "not very many willing to part with their shares *below* .25c yesterday. I hope that clears it up.
    21 Nov 2012, 12:13 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    "SALES to a major lead acid battery company...UL 1741...'very advanced' truck OEM...batteries shipped...hauling freight...purchasing electrodes...RFPs...Ut... 'mature development'..."

     

    What am I missing here?
    Sounds like a very interesting 45 day window to me!

     

    Any guess if the truck OEM might be announced within the 45 days?
    19 Nov 2012, 03:07 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (797) | Send Message
     
    In the CC TG stated the following:

     

    "On November 7, we shipped PbC batteries to an OEM for their use in a class 8 truck rebuild program utilizing their proprietary hybrid drive train. We first engaged this potential rebuild program in 2009 but several obstacles prevented the OEM from moving forward. The program is now well under way and we reengaged early this summer. Our batteries, 52 in all are scheduled to go into a rebuilt vehicle in the next several days. I hope the press is here. And that vehicle is scheduled to be on the road hauling freight by the end of November. We will see real world application results by the end of 2012. Our batteries will be utilized in the boost uphill performance program that will provide extra power when needed and more importantly, provide better miles per gallon in overall freight handling."

     

    He is referring to an "OEM", I don't believe that the E Power company that is also testing the PbC would be considered an OEM! Am I thinking correctly?
    19 Nov 2012, 03:15 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    But JP mentioned that he thinks it's something he proposed back in ... 2009? And TG said "... We first engaged this potential rebuild program in 2009".

     

    So I think JP's thought has a good chance of being the correct one. As to how we'd call "OEM", is an outfit that rebuilds trucks to a different or like new condition being one? I don't know.

     

    HardToLove
    19 Nov 2012, 03:27 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Based on what I've heard from a VC in Lyon, I'm comfortable that the hybrid drive OEM is ePower. Since the batteries have already shipped I look for some sort of announcement soon. The APU testing project will also involve an OEM, but that project is still a few weeks off. Since the SAE presentation spoke of starting testing by 2013,I'm hopeful for a 2012 announcement on who the partner is.
    19 Nov 2012, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    Magounsq,
    A couple of things. 1) Demos are nice, but people want to see real sales at this point. 2) Many don't believe the UL listing for the HUB will happen in December, too many previous instances where UL approval was delayed. After that, it's all about sales of the HUB. Plus, I figure you've got the usual end of year selling going on, with investors figuring that the stock price isn't going anywhere between now and early next year. IMHO.
    19 Nov 2012, 03:39 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Something to watch to see how it goes perhaps?

     

    Active Power Files Definitive Proxy Materials for Reverse Stock Split Vote Special Meeting of Shareholders Scheduled for Dec. 17, 2012

     

    http://bit.ly/SK4TqF
    19 Nov 2012, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1419) | Send Message
     
    At first I read that as Axion. Got worried for a bit!
    19 Nov 2012, 03:46 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Ranma, Active power stock price is taking it in stride. I'm wondering if splits carry the weight they used to. Not followed it so I really don't know. In the end it all comes down to execution of the business plan..
    19 Nov 2012, 03:51 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Active Power's stock price took hit from about 80 to about 65 with the announcement. I think the market reaction is silly, but it is a tradition.
    19 Nov 2012, 04:06 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (797) | Send Message
     
    I am speculating that the OEM is Freightliner! Why you ask? Because I want to is my reply! Ha! I just don't think EPower can be considered an OEM.

     

    My bet is JP knows!
    19 Nov 2012, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    I'd classify ePower as a very small OEM. My bet is the OEM for the APU test will be a better known name.
    19 Nov 2012, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    I'd also classify E-Power as an OEM.

     

    Wiki.

     

    http://bit.ly/XWKLZa
    19 Nov 2012, 03:56 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    RBrun357, figure 2 in the SAE paper is a diagram of the test configuration which happens to match the Freightliner ParkSmart configuration. The term ParkSmart is not used in the industry by anyone but Freightliner/Daimler. I think we are beyond speculation here...
    19 Nov 2012, 04:17 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (797) | Send Message
     
    I agree with that, I also agree with the APU market being a faster revenue generator opportunity.
    19 Nov 2012, 04:29 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    TG's wording in the CC about size and number of OEM's.

     

    "Severely we are in various stages of work and discussions that vary from early to very advanced with a number of small and large start-up, to prominent well established heavy truck OEMs here in the United States. The objective is to outfit 18 wheelers with battery powered Axion systems that will boost uphill performance as well as increased miles per gallon."
    19 Nov 2012, 05:14 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Metro
    As I read it there are a minimum of 3 OEMs working on a boost for the engine. Plus an OEM working on 'anti-idling'.

     

    Perhaps TG misspoke but that's what he said.
    I've included the whole section so others can make sure I'm not missing something,

     

    " Severely we are in various stages of work and discussions that vary from early to very advanced with a number of small and large start-up, to prominent well established heavy truck OEMs here in the United States. The objective is to outfit 18 wheelers with battery powered Axion systems that will boost uphill performance as well as increased miles per gallon.

     

    On November 7, we shipped PbC batteries to an OEM for their use in a class 8 truck rebuild program utilizing their proprietary hybrid drive train. We first engaged this potential rebuild program in 2009 but several obstacles prevented the OEM from moving forward. The program is now well under way and we reengaged early this summer. Our batteries, 52 in all are scheduled to go into a rebuilt vehicle in the next several days. I hope the press is here. And that vehicle is scheduled to be on the road hauling freight by the end of November. We will see real world application results by the end of 2012. Our batteries will be utilized in the boost uphill performance program that will provide extra power when needed and more importantly, provide better miles per gallon in overall freight handling.

     

    This application is in addition to our truck OEM initiative designed to satisfy 'anti-idling' legislation with the use of our PbC battery. We feel that the unique properties of our PbC battery, high charge acceptance, fast recharge rate, long cycle life and string equalization will allow the OEM'S segregated battery system and segregated battery system to function more efficiently when the truck is at rest but still needs to run its ancillary load for example their heater, radio, electronics, air conditioning, and to do this without idling the engine and creating emissions."
    20 Nov 2012, 03:13 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    froggey77,
    I would agree with your interpretation.
    20 Nov 2012, 03:28 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (797) | Send Message
     
    January 27, 2011, Freightliner Rolls Out 1,000th Hybrid Truck

     

    http://bit.ly/SahGEq

     

    It appears that they have been working on hybrid trucks for a while now.
    19 Nov 2012, 03:51 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2389) | Send Message
     
    Holy Cow ... warning Will Robinson!

     

    "Freightliner Delivers Hybrids to UPS Fleet
    Posted: Nov 2, 2012 10:30 AM | Last Updated: Nov 2, 2012 11:30

     

    GAFFNEY, S.C. – Freightliner has delivered 40 hydraulic hybrid-powered walk-in vans to UPS."

     

    ...

     

    "In addition to powering the vehicle engine, the hydraulic system also starts the engine, eliminating the need for a 12-volt starter. The system powers the HHV’s brakes and steering components as well, thus eliminating the need for the engine to support these vehicle functions."

     

    http://bit.ly/RR59WI
    20 Nov 2012, 10:33 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    The ParkSmart auxiliary power system carries hotel loads on long-haul trucks during driver rest periods. The ePower project is a true series hybrid electric drivetrain. You can't do either with hydraulics.
    20 Nov 2012, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    Wtb: Could this be a positive for electrified vehicles? I presume that energy storage and transfer in the form of electricity is more efficient than the transfer of hydraulic fluids and thermal energy losses in the accumulator, even if those are small. Starting from there ...

     

    So if they save 40% or so, we ought to save more in an electrical hybrid, even allowing for things like starters.

     

    The only negative I can see might be weight (assuming the hydraulic system is lighter) and the PbC is lighter than the regular LABs, with some loss of capacity. Might be offset by being able to achieve full charge with substantially less engine-on periods though.

     

    HardToLove
    20 Nov 2012, 10:48 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    While very excited to see PbC used in a hybrid truck, I know that hybrid hydraulics are very worthy competitors. I have read that hydraulic accumulators can capture 70% of braking energy while the best batteries (admittedly not PbC) can only capture 25%.
    Another stunning fact about Parker's series hydraulic hybrid: an article in fleetsandfuels.com notes that it may cut brake jobs on a garbage truck by 50x!
    On cost, I only know that the hydraulic hybrid drive is supposed to cost less than half of a comparable diesel electric (NiMH or lithium) system.
    20 Nov 2012, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >D Lane ... To me the hydraulic drive is a bigger threat to EV in the routed delivery business than in the longer distance trucking business for no other reason than OTR trucks operate on torque more than a city van. Torque requires gear boxes and hydraulic gearboxes are ... shall we say ... expensive. Better suited to hybrid electric in my book. Even if Axion lost out on the primary hybrid drive to hydraulic, there is that APU & 10+ hour need for electric power which is a big market. In that market the DCA and cycle life are quite competitive traits of the PbC. Time will tell.
    20 Nov 2012, 11:39 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Thanks DRich! Can you say more? I thought that torque was required at start-up and horsepower is what is needed to pass.
    How is it that OTR trucks operate on torque more than a city vehicle?
    20 Nov 2012, 11:50 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >D Lane ... Heavier loads to start/maintain momentum, longer/steeper grades, wide variety of road surfaces, wind ... I'm sure to be leaving something out. Anyway, we talk all the time about horsepower but when push-come-to-shove the work is done with torque and that is motors or gears.
    20 Nov 2012, 11:58 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    D Lane: Adding to what DRich posted, there is a correlation between torque and HP. A brief, but thorough overview?

     

    http://bit.ly/T9HRKT

     

    This is one of the things that I think makes so many advanced motors (not engines) attractive: they can vary placement, orientation of magnets, etc, and then control timing of electrical pulses (or current flow) to match the speed/load to keep torque higher throughout the operating range, where "traditional" motors had max torque at 0 rpm and dropped off from there.

     

    Other motor types (e.g inductance motors?) can achieve similar behavior by precise control of the currents and appropriately-designed armatures, windings, etc.

     

    HardToLove
    20 Nov 2012, 12:16 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Thanks! Interesting regarding the hydraulic hybrid "As the truck reaches highway speed, it transfers from hydrostatic drive to mechanical drive to maximize operational efficiency."
    http://bit.ly/RRj2Eu
    It has a 3 speed transmission. It certainly is targeting stop-and-go applications such as garbage trucks and UPS trucks.
    20 Nov 2012, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Thanks HTL. Advanced motors favor series hybrids over parallel hybrids, correct?
    20 Nov 2012, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3934) | Send Message
     
    Question for the engineer inclined. Is there reasonable potential for dual hybrid class 8 type vehicles where hydraulic accumulators are used to recycle some braking energy for subsequent vehicle acceleration from stop and some braking energy recycled for acceleration assist at higher speeds (25mph - 65mph).
    20 Nov 2012, 12:50 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    D Lane: I can't say if it favors one over the other. I think efficiency counts in both configurations. But other trade-offs, e.g. cost, ease of manufacturing (which is a cost factor), maintenance, intended application, ... might cause different configurations to be favored in different applications.

     

    Someone more knowledgeable than I am might know some specifics that would better answer your question or give examples where one configuration might be favored.

     

    HardToLove
    20 Nov 2012, 01:08 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    D-Inv: I've often wondered about combining the hydraulic accumulators with a battery too. But both battery and accumulators want the regen, as you are getting at.

     

    HTL, I have read that parallel hybrids are best for highway driving which is why I find ePower's series set-up a little confusing . . .I think I asked the wrong question. I think the primary advantages of a series hybrid is allowing the genset to run at maximum efficiency all the time. Interestingly, it also provides a clear path toward full EV--the electric motors are driving the wheels and the transmission is eliminated.

     

    Since the ePower system is not for an application with lots of braking regen, hydraulic accumulators lose at least some of their advantage.
    20 Nov 2012, 02:23 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    This is not a class 8 application or even close. This is a local delivery truck with a GVWR less than where a class 8 application starts. As you folks would say, there is a very wide moat between these two. Hybrids for this market have been on the drawing table and in production for several years...
    20 Nov 2012, 02:43 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Tim thats true regarding WTBs link but the hybrid hydraulic system is by Parker Hannifan and they have a Class 8 application that is amazing for garbage trucks: 50% fuel savings and massively reduced need for brake jobs.
    http://bit.ly/TeoZwu

     

    For the best information, one can do a search at fleetsandfuels.com

     

    I know of no indication that it will be used in OTR trucks anytime soon. Its primary benefit is massive brake regeneration.
    20 Nov 2012, 03:02 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    D Lane, very true. Because of its weight, a garbage truck is considered a class 8 truck but it is the most specialized application of a class 8 truck that I can think of. The local distribution of Pepsi and Coke is another case (not as specialized) for a class 8 truck being used for local distribution because of the weight of the cargo. Likewise with tanker trucks. But these do not have sleepers and would not be used in Regional or Long Haul applications which is Axions target at present...
    20 Nov 2012, 03:19 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    "I have read that hydraulic accumulators can capture 70% of braking energy while the best batteries (admittedly not PbC) can only capture 25%. "

     

    That doesn't seem right unless they are not including lithium batteries either. Electric motor and inverter on regen should be around 85%, and lithium charge acceptance should be 90% at least.
    20 Nov 2012, 08:53 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    JPR, Regarding batteries ability to capture regen, I think I read that first in a Crain's Detroit story that is now beyond a paywall. But here is another reference: “the Autocar refuse trucks commonly demonstrate annual fuel savings of 35-50% with the hybrid drive system, reusing as much as 71% of the vehicle’s braking energy that would otherwise be lost.” That compares with just 21% for hybrid electric systems, Parker’s Tom DeCoster said at the recent Green Truck Summit in Indianapolis.
    http://bit.ly/109bGAy
    20 Nov 2012, 09:44 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    D Lane: "That compares with just 21% for hybrid electric systems, Parker’s Tom DeCoster said ..."

     

    This is the sort of statement that we have to question: what hybrid electric systems is he using as the base case. Without some identification of the referenced system, we can't tell if that genral statement applies closely across the board or ...

     

    That leaves the door open for JRP3's Li-ion system to possibly be competitive, as it might also from the PbC. We know, e.g., tht the PbC easily handles a 3C charge rate while traditional LABs don't. And the PbC might take more as well - we don't really know.

     

    There's also variables that would affect the comparison, such as number of batteries in the configuration, SOC operational range, ...

     

    We know from NSC testing(?) that the PbC can handle a 200+ amp inrush - what's that equate to in regen braking on a typical truck?

     

    HardToLove
    21 Nov 2012, 06:14 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    It depends on operating voltage. 200 amps times say 320V is 64kW or 85HP of stopping power, probably not enough to do much for a large truck. Double the current to 400 amps and that might be useful, depending on how you configure the pack both lithium and PbC could handle that current, especially in short bursts. They could of course double the voltage as well but then you're dealing with twice as many batteries and a pretty high voltage system.
    21 Nov 2012, 09:11 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    HTL-I do not know the answer but I like the question. I've certainly wondered the same thing about PbC regen. If its better than other batteries (and we presume it is) Vani D should be touting that.

     

    Regarding the blanket statement about hydraulic vs. electric regen, the link I provided says it comes from the U of Michigan.
    I do know that the best HEV transit bus fuel economy improvement is 40%. Parker is boldly saying they are achieving 50% improvement on the hydraulic garbage truck application. Some of that superiority may be from the fact that garbage trucks stop and start more often even than transit buses.
    An engineering firm called Altair did select the same Parker series hydraulic hybrid system for a transit bus prototype. Presumably they were objective before they made the decision to go with hydraulic hybrid and they said this: “We decided to use hydraulic hybrid technology for the bus since it recovers more than three times the brake energy and an overall 30 percent lower cost of ownership than any electric hybrid technology available today,” said Tim Smith, director of design engineering for Altair ProductDesign (Dec 8, 2010).

     

    I sure like it when I see specific cost of ownership claims.
    21 Nov 2012, 09:33 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    D Lane: "If its better than other batteries (and we presume it is) Vani D should be touting that".

     

    We know that it is from triple redundant testing of various types that gave us the knowledge of the DCA, which is conservatively put at 200 amps and we've heard as high as 300, IIRC.

     

    Vani has a nice edge in the presentations from various places that compares to Axion's "base line", traditional LABs.

     

    So I do think a person of his experience is touting the hell out of it for the appropriate applications.

     

    HardToLove
    21 Nov 2012, 11:05 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, HTL. Do you know if the PbC would provide better braking regen (capture more of the energy) than a comparable lithium ion battery? We presume so but I've never seen a direct comparison.

     

    Clearly the biggest PbC advantage is expected to be cost.
    21 Nov 2012, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    D-inv, Once you start adding all these systems the cost tends to escalate pretty quickly. Also finding space to fit everything in limited areas is a task. Then start adding in factors like design and build complexity, maintenance, repair access, MTBF for a far more complex system etc. Add in a little too much mass for good measure and having all these technologies in one unit starts to look not so feasible.
    21 Nov 2012, 11:59 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    One of the problems with the term "comparable lithium-ion" is there are so many flavors of lithium-ion. Lithium-titanate chemistries, for example, have better charge acceptance than the PbC, but they're also incredibly costly. Some LiFePO4 manufacturers claim very high "C-rates." Most lithium-ion batteries have relatively poor charge acceptance and charge far slower than the PbC. Unfortunately, like most generalizations, there are exceptions.
    21 Nov 2012, 12:00 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    D Lane: I don't know about the Li-ion - don't follow it closely. ISTR that it's better than most Li-ion though due to lack of issues with thermal concerns? PbC has a wide operating temperature range and really needs no special cell balancing activities or cooling systems.

     

    That suggests it might be better for frequent and longer-duration episodes though.

     

    I know there's different Li-ion chemistries though - maybe some of them have similar traits? Then cost and what the energy density needs are would come into play I guess.

     

    HardToLove
    21 Nov 2012, 12:00 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3934) | Send Message
     
    "D-inv, Once you start adding all these systems the cost tends to escalate pretty quickly. "

     

    Thanks for the response, ii.
    21 Nov 2012, 12:07 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... In a Class 8 application, DCA is part of the solution. The other is how many cycles can a Li-on do going to 40%, 20%, 5%. If I was trucking on a long grade I'd want to know that my battery could go all-in and last for years. I don't remember the number of total discharge/recovery cycles the PbC has done but I do remember it being many times the reported Li-on.
    21 Nov 2012, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Great answers! Thanks all.
    21 Nov 2012, 12:10 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    "If I was trucking on a long grade I'd want to know that my battery could go all-in and last for years."

     

    I would think that any of these recovery systems, hydraulic or electric, will have practical limits, and long grades would eventually max them out and require only the physical brakes to take over the load. Otherwise you'd have to carry around a large hydraulic tank or battery bank that is mostly unused for all but the most extreme situation.
    22 Nov 2012, 10:40 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    JRP3,

     

    On the braking side of a long down grade we would just switch off the battery (when full) and start dissipating heat like trains do...
    22 Nov 2012, 11:10 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    D Lane stated;
    "Parker is boldly saying they are achieving 50% improvement on the hydraulic garbage truck application. Some of that superiority may be from the fact that garbage trucks stop and start more often even than transit buses."

     

    Indeed.

     

    Energy recovered in an electric hybrid is stored in batteries or capacitors. 10+ percent is lost in the storage process as heat. The electrical/chemical energy has a "storage life" of hours to months, depending on the specific technology of the "battery". For a PbC it would be days to weeks.

     

    Hydraulic energy is stored in a device called an accumulator. Think of a piston that compresses a spring when pushed by hydraulic pressure. The energy is stored in the spring. In practical systems, that spring is often a gas sealed in the system. N2 is common. When the gas is compressed, it heats up. So part of the stored energy in in that heat. As the gas cools off, that portion of the energy is lost. Insulation can slow the cooling but only to a practical limit.

     

    SO, if the recovered braking energy is going to be used within seconds to minutes, there is little loss. Parked overnight, the gas cools to ambient and the THERMAL portion of the total stored energy is lost.

     

    Use it soon or lose it.

     

    Lecture ends :-)
    22 Nov 2012, 01:44 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Thanks hillbilly!

     

    D-Inv asked about the theoretical potential of dual hybrid system. I may have misunderstood the question and I am not an engineer. . .
    I have come across a project that combines hydraulic accumulators and electric drive. Safra, a French bus manufacturer, has designed a multi-hybrid bus that incorporates a hydraulic system in a battery-electric drivetrain. An electric motor propels the bus, but its regenerative braking system also pressurizes hydraulic fluid. The vehicle, known as Businova, relies on the hydraulic system when it’s under heavy acceleration and right after start-up.
    http://prn.to/T8vePW
    22 Nov 2012, 08:40 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    Tim,
    So you're talking about a bank of resistors?
    23 Nov 2012, 09:21 AM Reply Like
  • CO3
    , contributor
    Comments (246) | Send Message
     
    JRP3: " Tim,
    So you're talking about a bank of resistors? "

     

    Or just brakes ?
    Technology already deployed, Prius brake pedal doesn't actually apply the brakes. It starts the regen process, and adds hydraulic power (ie: disc brakes) if you want to stop faster than regen can absorb or if batteries are full.
    23 Nov 2012, 10:51 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    But I would imagine that a large truck counts on engine braking to avoid killing the brakes, especially on a long hill. Without engine braking or regen I'm not sure the brakes are up to the task on their own. If not, and your batteries are full, then regen would have to be sent elsewhere, and you'd need a pretty substantial bank of resistors to bleed off that braking energy.
    24 Nov 2012, 09:51 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    On a large truck we count on being in the right gear to hold a slow speed descending a hill. If traction is questionable we use neither engine nor friction brakes during the decent.

     

    I am sure the safety factor, when sizing the braking system, would not include the battery. Frictionless braking has been around for a very long time. I am pretty confident they have a handle on it...
    24 Nov 2012, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • CO3
    , contributor
    Comments (246) | Send Message
     
    JRP3: "Without engine braking or regen I'm not sure the brakes are up to the task on their own."

     

    Engine braking (Jacobs Brake) is used to minimize brake wear, but is NOT counted on for the safe stopping of a fully loaded truck.
    In fact, many area's have legislation outlawing their use due to noise.
    http://bit.ly/Tixnsv
    Tim is the expert, but I believe trucks that routinely run in the Rockies have stronger brakes installed.
    Not saying a resistor bank is out of the question, but I think lower tech & less expensive solutions are on the shelf. Is there any reason the electric drive-generator system can't be reversed on decel & still have a "Jake" brake on the engine? Smaller diesel wouldn't have as much resistance of course, but certainly easier than a resistor bank. I don't think the solutions are too complicated.
    24 Nov 2012, 01:59 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    CO3,

     

    I don't think an engine brake on the genset would be of any use. An eDrive would need to push amps into the batteries or a resistor bank. This is more common that you might think and has been around a very long time...

     

    http://bit.ly/Ye63BG
    24 Nov 2012, 07:53 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3934) | Send Message
     
    "This is more common that you might think and has been around a very long time...

     

    http://bit.ly/Ye63BG "

     

    Thanks, Tim! I was struggling with lack of inadequate imagination to envison "frictionless braking" and about to embark on internet search to scratch the quandry itch.
    24 Nov 2012, 08:26 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    "Engine braking (Jacobs Brake) is used to minimize brake wear, but is NOT counted on for the safe stopping of a fully loaded truck."

     

    That makes sense, so then any concern of a "full" battery or hydraulic system is unfounded, since the existing brakes will just take over.
    25 Nov 2012, 10:08 AM Reply Like
  • CO3
    , contributor
    Comments (246) | Send Message
     
    Tim: Cool link, thanks for following up.
    I learned a lot today.
    In my early 20's before getting into auto repair, one of my cousins on the farm had an excavating business, I've got a couple hundred K miles split between 13 yd dumps & 18 wheel low-boys.
    Never heard of one of these (although they may be more popular with the over the road guys)
    At any rate, I don't see any insurmountable problems implementing
    the "hybrid" truck concept.
    25 Nov 2012, 11:43 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    CO3,

     

    The retarders are most effective in a local application with many stops. However, I think they could be used in all applications. Here is another peek at the unit...

     

    http://bit.ly/QFxJO6

     

    I think the hybrid truck concept has lots of promise...

     

    PS You learned to drive REAL trucks!
    26 Nov 2012, 01:14 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Great link on frictionless braking!
    Whats to prevent the technology from doing what hybrids do and bring the energy back to a battery pack?

     

    PS Jay Leno also did a show on the Proterra bus that has been mentioned here lately--for anyone interested.
    26 Nov 2012, 11:01 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    Skip to the 5 minute mark and you will hear Jay ask John about the unit being regenerative. Sounds like it might be coming...
    26 Nov 2012, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    If you're going to have a battery pack to take regen you might as well take the next step and make the frictionless brake unit into a motor. In fact you'd have to if you want to use the stored energy in the pack.
    27 Nov 2012, 07:47 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, that must be what they are working on then. . .
    27 Nov 2012, 08:05 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    JP

     

    Just curious.
    In my prior life, we (the company) would know "who" the key players (investors) were before quarterly and annual CC.
    Do you think AXPW has employed that yet, or still in learning curve?
    19 Nov 2012, 04:05 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    I don't have any feel for that issue at all. All companies know how to get the information, but I haven't seen many that take the time to do so on a regular basis.
    19 Nov 2012, 04:41 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (696) | Send Message
     
    John

     

    I think that you may do a disservice to the AXION management.

     

    I have very limited insight into tiny company operations but it would only be logical to assume that the CEO would want to know who the major shareholders might be especially if there was a need for further fundraising. Despite SS et al there is a significant holding through your and the Axionista group. I have no certain knowledge but the dynamic may well have changed since the last capital raise.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:50 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    I think management keeps tabs on who the larger holders are, but the information on street name holders is costly because companies have to pay for the reports and ordering them is something most companies only do on an annual basis instead of on a quarterly basis.
    20 Nov 2012, 12:29 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    The blowback against eco-bling is starting.

     

    US News reports "Chevy Volt Owners Take Flack For GM Flubs" but the instances in the article are more along the line of "how do you like the car that you bought with my money?"

     

    http://yhoo.it/SKisGB

     

    What are the Model S buyers going to do when they find out that people don't think they're hip, slick and cool?
    19 Nov 2012, 04:39 PM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (430) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » One comment deleted due to negative characterization of a comment and assignment of "endorsement" of vandalism when the poster made no such endorsement.

     

    APH
    19 Nov 2012, 05:07 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (696) | Send Message
     
    Didn't see it but I very much appreciate your diligence.
    19 Nov 2012, 09:51 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    "A third driver, whom Edmunds didn't identify, said he was run off the road by a Volt hater."

     

    I wonder what other personality quirks the Volt hater has, and I'm guessing this isn't his first run-in with the law enforcement system.
    19 Nov 2012, 05:08 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    This really is nothing new. When Toyota started selling the Prius, most people turned up their noses at both the car and the people buying it. Now, granted some of that was due to the fact that many of the early Prius buyers did so to show that "they" cared about the environment, and assumed everyone else didn't.
    19 Nov 2012, 05:32 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    "Friends" have refused to ride in my car finding it objectionable - my dog rides in it a lot and the smell can be a bit overwhelming: but no one has found it so offensively repugnant that they have ran me off the road. Tiger Wood's wife ran his car off the road. Can't remember what brand he was driving.
    19 Nov 2012, 06:19 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    It was a Cadillac Escalade.

     

    http://rdar.co/Wh2rJR

     

    Tiger was quoted as saying that going forward he would only fill his vehicles with Gulf "No Knocks". ;))

     

    http://bit.ly/URtgsL
    19 Nov 2012, 06:29 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    Was the visible damage on the Escalade done by the tree or Mrs. Woods?
    20 Nov 2012, 02:50 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2097) | Send Message
     
    Didn't she use a 9 iron?
    20 Nov 2012, 04:07 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    metro, I think Tiger will never feel the same about playing in the woods again!

     

    Stilldays, Something like that. We'll have to ask the caddy!
    20 Nov 2012, 07:21 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    About that HUB UL certification. From Tom at various points in the last CC...

     

    "We engaged a test facility and expect to be certified in early December of this year. On a parallel path we performed in-house testing and as a result of this successful testing..."

     

    "now that we have a firm UL 1741 certification date, it’s going to be a lot easier to market that product..."

     

    "we had end dates that were all over the pet place, believe, it was went to literally quarters and quarters out, but now we've arrived at a better test facility that can get us there more quickly and we’re very appreciative of that."

     

    "Well they've stuck their neck out there, that's for sure."

     

    It sounds like they have done everything humanly possible to get the certification done quickly. Including getting the product to a specific facility and it appears that they have done the certification testing in-house. Is there a reason why we shouldn't expect certification in early December? Am I being too hopeful here?
    19 Nov 2012, 05:39 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    Tim,
    I hope they are right. I just know that the month between Thanksgiving and Christmas has more people worrying about holiday gifts and vacations than meeting deadlines. Things get slowed down. People leave for vacations. I will be very pleasantly surprised if they pull it off. Since they said early December, I'm hoping for an announcement on Dec 7th. UL approval would be a very nice birthday present from Axion.
    19 Nov 2012, 10:12 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9598) | Send Message
     
    Lab: Just to remind you and all here in the APC, last year, the Monday after T-Day, Axion Power introduced the Power Cube.

     

    As for the Residential Hub, I do expect UL approval in December. Whether is was at the June SC, where I heard Joe P. say UL approval was coming in December, or TG, and several times elsewhere, I fully expect that Rosewater will gain UL approval, just as was expected...in December.

     

    Nothing off course, timing-wise.
    19 Nov 2012, 11:44 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (797) | Send Message
     
    I don't really have a clue but I am there with you in regards to hoping that they are correct with the early December date. I know it took a long time for ZBB, I am hoping this time is different for whatever reason!
    19 Nov 2012, 06:38 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Given the way Tom spoke of the UL Certification process, it seems clear to me that they've been given a firm date by the testing laboratory.
    20 Nov 2012, 12:35 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    11/19/2012: EOD stuff partially copied from the instablog (up tomorrow).
    # Trds: 48, MinTrSz: 250, MaxTrSz: 20000, Vol 255034, AvTrSz: 5313
    Min. Pr: 0.2400, Max Pr: 0.2700, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2517
    # Buys, Shares: 31 164957, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.2514
    # Sells, Shares: 17 90077, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2521
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 1.83:1 (64.7% “buys”), DlyShts 13417 (13.42%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 14.90%

     

    Well, it may be surprising to know we had an up day on improving volume. We had a penetration below the descending support (~$0.246?) of our falling trading channel. But it was only 12,417 shares on 6 out of 48 trades. All were “sells”. After each group of occurrences, 3, price quickly recovered to $0.25 and once to $0.26. Unfortunately, our $0.27 high was a single7,407 share trade right at the open and the first sub-$0.25 trades came in 15 minutes.

     

    The oscillators I watch are still mixed with RSI and MFI improving while the stochastic is trying to weaken. Only the ADX is worth mentioning: the DI+ and DI- have essentially converged (20 and 19 respectively) and look to cross, as predicted if tomorrow does at least as well as today. Our price range is still slightly below my experimental 13-day Bollinger mid-point. But it is still off the bottom. Doesn't suggest any particular movement except possibly continued centering to the mid-point. This would be up a wee bit, maybe to ~$0.26xx, which we did encompass today.

     

    Looking at my experimental stuff ...

     

    Volume and daily short sales continue their piddling, not suggesting much of anything. I've been watching the price vs. Trend lines for a long time and the correlation continues to strengthen, with all now being 80% or greater. I had been hoping to see a divergence develop, but it hasn't happened, except for some sort-term periods, yet.

     

    There's some good indication of some upward price: buy:sell and it's averages, have apparently bottomed out begun to move towards more normal levels. Average trade size has improved from the abysmal depths in the last two days. Still at the low end of what I believe indicates “retail” though.

     

    The “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” stuff, if I read it's meaning correctly, continues to say that the large, long-term, heavy sellers are out. We are, AFAICT, seeing action (Nov. Avg: 36.19%, min: 3.53%, max: 149.46%) reflective of only retail investors awaiting a positive catalyst before jumping making a decision.

     

    All three versions of my inflection point calculations are suggesting that some price appreciation may occur. The reliability of these is yet unknown and I'm not yet confident I've sussed all the nuances they may have.

     

    The full listing of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” stuff and a more extensive discussion of the inflection points are omitted here.

     

    HardToLove
    19 Nov 2012, 07:57 PM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (369) | Send Message
     
    Here is a NY Times article about 3-cylinder ICE's coming to the USA from Europe. No mention of stop-start:

     

    http://nyti.ms/S70IIS

     

    Also, I've been thinking. Articles are regularly posted here about stop-start vehicles that are in service as we speak, the batteries in which seem to be AGM.

     

    When are stop-start manufacturers going to start using PbC batteries, which clearly perform better and last orders of magnitude longer?
    19 Nov 2012, 08:10 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message