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  • :( and nothing to say!
    10 Dec 2012, 08:21 AM Reply Like
    10 Dec 2012, 12:46 PM Reply Like
  • Second and good news:


    Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries


    Enhanced Flooded, Valve-Regulated, Lead-Carbon, and UltraBatteries for Motive, Transportation, and Stationary Applications: Global Market Analysis and Forecasts



    AXION POWER is in the article.


    Have a nice day-Carlos
    10 Dec 2012, 08:24 AM Reply Like
  • Curious that Axion is not broken out as a Lead-Carbon play as the Ultra Battery is ...

    10 Dec 2012, 09:25 AM Reply Like
  • From the link:
    "The industry remains enthralled with the technical
    features of lithium ion batteries, and many stakeholders await the cost decreases that will enable mass market adoption; these are not likely to arrive until the latter part of this decade."


    My observation on many of the links people have posted here is that PbC and Axion seems not be on the radar. When it is mentioned, it is not acknowledged as a disruptive technology. That could be intentional on the part of competing companies, but is may also be that it is not yet in the category of "available". Axion's customers testing it's batteries are not hype-generating machines, and would prefer not to give away their efforts to competitors. e-Power may get some attention, but their interest is to sell it to fleets that have already expressed interest. It's going to be harder to ignore even 2 of the 3 current uses (trains, trucks, hubs) get some sales going.
    10 Dec 2012, 10:26 AM Reply Like
  • Regarding the Pike Research report, it signals that transportation is more important than grid storage:


    "By 2020, Pike Research forecasts that advanced lead-acid batteries will capture roughly 25% of the global battery-based grid storage market, a small subset of the broader energy storage market. The market value for advanced lead-acid batteries in grid storage will be approximately $6.8 billion in 2020. Transportation applications, however, will still be the leading market for advanced lead-acid battery revenues."


    Hello NSC, OTR truck APUs and ePower.
    10 Dec 2012, 01:05 PM Reply Like
  • Someone is giving a distress call with their sales. Two sales of 911 shares went off at .30 and .2951.
    10 Dec 2012, 10:13 AM Reply Like
  • JVeal: market-maker entertaining themselves with partial fills is my guess ... or (adjusting TFH)


    Putting out a call to other MMs for assistance in moving price? :-))


    10 Dec 2012, 10:21 AM Reply Like
  • HTL, I'd guess it's about the level of mentality of the paid nit wits that are trying for some reason to adjust Axion's price in a negative direction.


    MY TFH tells me someone is trying to get this companies tech. on the cheap. (TFH over load. zap sizzle spark).
    10 Dec 2012, 10:39 AM Reply Like
  • I am pretty sure 911 means, "Someone help me get some shares down here before this thing blows." -- just a hunch.


    MM Cheerleader Song --
    "shake that tree, shake-shake that treeee."


    Axionista choir response --
    "Yerr not gett'n nuttin fer christmas..."
    10 Dec 2012, 11:02 AM Reply Like
  • Shake your bounty ( Of large sulfur crystals )?

    10 Dec 2012, 11:14 AM Reply Like
  • Pew Research
    New Report Published


    Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries
    Enhanced Flooded, Valve-Regulated, Lead-Carbon, and UltraBatteries for Motive, Transportation, and Stationary


    "Now...both mobile and stationary applications, ranging from electrified vehicles to energy storage on the power grid, are demanding more dynamic energy storage services, which necessitates better technical performance characteristics (energy density, power density, charge acceptance) and lower lifecycle costs (improved battery cycle life). ...
    The increased adoption of renewable energy generation and advanced vehicle technologies, such as hybrid and stop-start vehicles, is driving innovation in the lead-based battery sector. New lead-based batteries are finding success in applications where batteries have a long history, such as vehicles, as well as new applications including grid storage for renewables integration.... "



    Cost is $3,900...curious if report yields company names.
    10 Dec 2012, 10:36 AM Reply Like
  • This link will take you to their 10 page executive summary. ( There are a couple good pages of textual discussion and Axion is identified in the list of companies.


    My favorite passage says:


    "These innovations will drive legacy and existing lead-acid battery vendors to capture significant market share, despite persistent competition from newer advanced batteries such as lithium ion (Li-ion). Pike Research forecasts that the advanced lead-acid battery market alone will be worth roughly $18 billion in 2020 across all applications; this represents the future of the lead battery industry.


    This report provides an analysis of the global market for advanced lead-acid batteries and fast-charging lead-acid batteries. Enhanced flooded batteries (EFBs) and absorbed glass mat (AGM) batteries represent the bulk of existing advanced lead-acid market share, while fast-charging lead-acid batteries represent the future of the market. Fast-charging LABs include batteries with carbon additives and split electrode batteries such as the UltraBattery – a hybrid lead-acid battery and ultracapacitor discussed in greater detail in the “Technology Issues” section of this report."
    10 Dec 2012, 10:57 AM Reply Like
  • Nice to know about the report. Thanks, mago, JP.


    Decomposing the projected 202 $18 billion aggregate market using the 58% transportation share ($10.44 b) mentioned in the Executive Summary and the stated $6.8 b attributed to stationary markets, one is left with $0.76 billion for motive applications.


    At 25% share of stationary market energy storage, $6.8 billion for lead acid implies total stationary market size of $27.2 billion.


    I'm thinking projected market for advanced lead acid (including PbC) for motive power omits any consideration of serial hybrid applications in heavy duty trucks.
    10 Dec 2012, 01:33 PM Reply Like
  • >D-inv ... I'm thinking you are probably right about omitting any consideration of serial hybrid applications in heavy duty trucks and several other things as well. When an analyst makes this kind of report they have to be limited to projecting what "IS" in the marketplace and ignoring what isn't with some small deference to what is known to be soon to join the marketplace. Without history & numbers to back up the research new entrants like Axion & hybrid trucks might deserve mention but not inclusion.
    10 Dec 2012, 01:42 PM Reply Like
  • Is there a discount value for aggregate market size numbers that Pike Research throws out five to ten years in advance?
    10 Dec 2012, 01:44 PM Reply Like
  • Any announcements from Axion? Anyone...? Anyone...?
    10 Dec 2012, 11:23 AM Reply Like
  • Bylo, When it comes to predicting the timing of other companies programs T.G. should apply a little DD to his answers.


    Doris Day that is, Que Sera Sera.
    10 Dec 2012, 01:50 PM Reply Like
  • The only thing TG predicted was "early December." Anything beyond that is individuals creating their own expectations.
    10 Dec 2012, 02:03 PM Reply Like
  • And "early December" is history as of December 16 IMO.
    10 Dec 2012, 02:24 PM Reply Like
  • I'll take pre-Xmas and be happy. TG might be occasionally aggressive on his calls but he doesn't seem the type to completely miss.
    10 Dec 2012, 05:00 PM Reply Like
  • If you see the ask at .43 for 8,500 shares, that's me messing with the MM :-)
    10 Dec 2012, 01:11 PM Reply Like
  • Now you are onto something. We all start putting in asks for 10K blocks at .43
    10 Dec 2012, 01:28 PM Reply Like
  • The problem with sell orders is that MMs invariably view them a selling pressure that will eventually come down to the bid. Lots of sell orders are seen as a portent of future problems, not opportunities.
    10 Dec 2012, 01:39 PM Reply Like
  • Well, ok smarty-pants. Then what is your plan?..and don't tell me patience, Yoda. I want some meat.
    10 Dec 2012, 01:56 PM Reply Like
  • A million share AON buy order at $.40 would likely get somebody's attention.
    10 Dec 2012, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • Jak,
    Careful, sounds like your in vulture mode. ;-)
    10 Dec 2012, 02:11 PM Reply Like
  • Yup, but more like a bear trying to stir some bees and drink their the end it will most likely just be me getting stung.
    10 Dec 2012, 02:18 PM Reply Like
  • Jon, I was thinking similarly but had a higher offer price in mind. Something in the range of $0.59 - $.65


    JP might be right on in suggesting MM take any offer as selling pressure, but it is not selling pressure near current levels. The higher price stands a chance of being interpreted as saying "I'm willing to sell, but the will need to double to get any interest here.
    10 Dec 2012, 02:30 PM Reply Like
  • Reuters is reporting that the DOE won't pay out the unused balance of A123's ARRA battery manufacturing grant. I wonder if they'll be doing a consolation round of awards so the rest of the taxpayer money doesn't go to waste.
    10 Dec 2012, 01:45 PM Reply Like
  • I thought the acquirers offer was contingent on the balance of the government grant being available. At least those were some of the initial terms mentioned.
    10 Dec 2012, 01:55 PM Reply Like
  • The pre-bankruptcy offer to buy a majority interest in A123 was subject to grant contingencies. The bankruptcy auction was not. I suspect that Wanxiang's primary concern in the pre-bankruptcy offer was $100 million in state jobs credits that already showed up on the face of A123's financial statements.
    10 Dec 2012, 02:01 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks John.
    10 Dec 2012, 02:09 PM Reply Like
  • According to reports, the US govt made it clear to Wanxiang and the other bidders that if a foreign bid won (ie Wanxiang's) that the balance of the grant would not be made available. It's still going to get interesting though. There are several senators who want the sale blocked to Wanxiang. They would rather the creditors just get screwed even more than let a Chinese company buy A123.
    10 Dec 2012, 04:17 PM Reply Like
  • ZBB is turning and burning again today...
    10 Dec 2012, 02:37 PM Reply Like
  • It has moved 50% from two weeks ago. I hope it holds and continues for those who own around here.
    10 Dec 2012, 02:40 PM Reply Like
  • Short-covering?
    10 Dec 2012, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • No short covering. Its what happens when an entire island decides your technology is the right grid storage for them.


    It should also be noted that hybrid engines from Cumming will use the ZBB controllers.


    Maybe Axion and ZBB actually will work together on class 8 trucks someday.
    10 Dec 2012, 03:27 PM Reply Like
  • >Futurist ... I've thought for years now that a ZBB battery/controller system mated up to what has become a PowerCube would be the ultimate deep discharging/fast response/recharge system. Now all I need is someone with money & need to think my way.
    10 Dec 2012, 03:33 PM Reply Like
  • Not anymore though .... Below AXPW again!
    11 Dec 2012, 10:22 PM Reply Like
  • Another 150% gain from here and I will be back to break even.
    10 Dec 2012, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • Wow D-Inv,
    You only need 150%?
    Lucky you
    10 Dec 2012, 03:27 PM Reply Like
  • Fut > :-) Yeah, I got'em at bargain basement price last year.
    10 Dec 2012, 03:33 PM Reply Like
  • ZBB stock price movement indicative of how quickly Axion stock price will move once various announcements start to roll in in the coming months?
    10 Dec 2012, 03:32 PM Reply Like
  • Yes Wayne,
    Its really indicative of any micro-cap stock that is dependent on revenue to drive the price as opposed to earnings. The market in energy storage is so large that any small market segment one can dominate is worth Billions. Hopefully a certain class 8 truck can deliver great fuel mileage and not have the batteries deteriorate.
    If the product delivers the stock price will follow.
    10 Dec 2012, 03:36 PM Reply Like
  • Sure hope so. Worth noting, though, at $.30 Axion is up 50% over the November 12 intraday low. Time for the second stage booster rocket to ignite.
    10 Dec 2012, 03:39 PM Reply Like
  • Worth noting ,though, at $.30 it is down over62% from my initial purchase price in 2009.


    When the Exide deal went through the stock boomed to $1.75 in two days IIRC. The next booster took it to $2.75


    That was fun while it lasted.
    10 Dec 2012, 03:51 PM Reply Like
  • If there are any Axionistas that are up near 50% I'd be amazed. Heck I'd take 5% up, as would many I'd assume. Can we just leave the 30 cent gravitational field soon? I'll celebrate every nickel up from there.
    10 Dec 2012, 04:58 PM Reply Like
  • I'm green at 0.40.
    10 Dec 2012, 07:05 PM Reply Like
  • Daimler's system for SS.


    Under the microscope: ECO start/stop: Sophisticated technology gives the highest levels of efficiency


    "In addition, the on-board electrical system is supported by a second battery."

    10 Dec 2012, 03:36 PM Reply Like
  • ""In addition, the on-board electrical system is supported by a second battery."



    Interesting! And that S/S system dates to October, 2010.
    10 Dec 2012, 04:11 PM Reply Like
  • Though it's 2 years old, the good news here is that they've already designed in a second battery, for the electrical load, when the car is stopped. Now just add some regenerative braking, upgrade the electronics a little, and switch to a PbC and they should be ready to go!
    10 Dec 2012, 04:39 PM Reply Like
  • The primary reason I like to see what the various automakers are doing in SS is to see how much they have embraced a single AGM battery as a solution. I'm not seeing a high confidence level given many of the alternate choices. There is still an opening for lower cost more robust systems IMO.
    10 Dec 2012, 04:27 PM Reply Like
  • Did someone (Tim?) say Daimler owns Freightliner? If so it would fascinate to learn Freightliner is one of the truck OEMs exploring PbC powered APUs.
    10 Dec 2012, 05:17 PM Reply Like
  • Daimler bought Freightliner some years ago.


    10 Dec 2012, 05:28 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv---I think a number of folks (me, anyway, lol) here are thinking/guessing that Freightliner is exploring the PbC for their APUs. Axion's slide #9 from their 10/2/2012 SAE 2012 Commercial Vehicle Congress Powerpt. presentation shows Freightliner's ParkSmart System, and Daimler hosted the segment topic of which Axion's pres. was a part. Hopefully we'll know soon, but who knows?
    10 Dec 2012, 06:33 PM Reply Like
  • 1981.

    10 Dec 2012, 06:08 PM Reply Like
  • That is informative history to me. Thanks.


    1981 - acquired by Mercedes-Benz AG of Germany, 200,000th Freightliner produced.


    1999 - "The one-millionth Freightliner truck is built. "


    Freightliner, Sterling and Western Star account for 38 percent of Class 8 sales in the NAFTA region, which includes the U.S., Canada and Mexico markets."


    Freightliner LLC becomes Daimler Trucks North America to better reflect its position in the Daimler family worldwide. "


    Sounds like pretty solid market potential for APUs. Now, if Axion can get a chunk of it.
    10 Dec 2012, 06:33 PM Reply Like
  • OOP (Out of Pocket) tomorrow as I fly home. Yakatcha later.


    12/10/2012: EOD stuff partially copied to the concentrator.
    # Trds: 47, MinTrSz: 500, MaxTrSz: 38000, Vol 249295, AvTrSz: 5304
    Min. Pr: 0.2900, Max Pr: 0.3084, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2990
    # Buys, Shares: 22 145800, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.3006
    # Sells, Shares: 25 103495, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2968
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 1.41:1 (58.5% “buys”), DlyShts 3711 (1.49%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 3.59%


    Same ol' same ol': Short percentage spikes high then drops big. I'm becoming more convinced that such as ATDF are working the stock with some transitory long positions.


    I didn't mention yesterday's increase in average trade size was due to a couple outlier trades (100K and 43K) that skewed the results since they were 41.9% of the day's volume. Consider it mentioned now. Anyway, seeing today's size drop back into the low end of what I believe is retail is not surprising.


    Volume is futzing around the averages – today being slightly below all of them.


    Today the VWAP was below $0.30, continuing what I think is a “reversion to the mean” around the $0.27-$0.28 area. I wouldn't be surprised to see it break below the 100-day SMA of $0.2965 tomorrow.


    All three versions of my experimental inflection point calculations still show no strength appearing in the buy:sell calculations.


    “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” stuff still suggesting the big bad wolves are gone. December average is down at 18.88%, very low. It may come up but looks set approach the lowest seen, 31.5% back in April before (we think) the really heavy selling of the Mega-C trustee shares began.


    10 Dec 2012, 07:33 PM Reply Like
  • Hi everyone:


    Pike Research forecasts $18B market in 2020 for advanced lead-acid batteries, 58% in transportation



    ...Pike says, while fast charging lead-acid batteries represent the future of the market.
    11 Dec 2012, 12:36 AM Reply Like
  • From the article, it seems important that:


    Advanced lead-acid batteries represent a technology that bridges the gap between legacy forms of battery storage and the future market. The industry remains enthralled with the technical features of lithium ion batteries, and many stakeholders await the cost decreases that will enable mass market adoption; these are not likely to arrive until the latter part of this decade. As a result, advanced lead-acid batteries are well-positioned to capture early market share in motive, transportation, and stationary applications; transportation will be the most important market for advanced lead-acid batteries in the next several years.
    11 Dec 2012, 12:41 AM Reply Like
  • I wish they had mentioned PbC.


    At some point media minds have got to start differentiating PbC from UltraBatteries.
    11 Dec 2012, 02:25 AM Reply Like
  • The actual report (outline) lists AXPW as a vendor and indicates there is a discussion about Lead-Carbon in the report (I have not purchased or read it). See outline of report below.



    Enhanced Flooded, Valve-Regulated, Lead-Carbon, and UltraBatteries for Motive, Transportation, and Stationary Applications: Global Market Analysis and Forecasts


    Conventional lead-acid batteries have a significant history in providing energy storage for a variety of end-use applications, both mobile and stationary. The operating demands of these applications have never been such that the technical deficiencies of lead-acid batteries – namely short cycle lives and slow charging rates – have thwarted their commercial success. Now, however, both mobile and stationary applications, ranging from electrified vehicles to energy storage on the power grid, are demanding more dynamic energy storage services, which necessitates better technical performance characteristics (energy density, power density, charge acceptance) and lower lifecycle costs (improved battery cycle life). Conventional lead-acid batteries cannot provide the level of performance demanded by these emerging applications and complementary technologies.


    The increased adoption of renewable energy generation and advanced vehicle technologies, such as hybrid and stop-start vehicles, is driving innovation in the lead-based battery sector. New lead-based batteries are finding success in applications where batteries have a long history, such as vehicles, as well as new applications including grid storage for renewables integration. By 2020, Pike Research forecasts that advanced lead-acid batteries will capture roughly 25% of the global battery-based grid storage market, a small subset of the broader energy storage market. The market value for advanced lead-acid batteries in grid storage will be approximately $6.8 billion in 2020. Transportation applications, however, will still be the leading market for advanced lead-acid battery revenues.


    This Pike Research report analyzes the technical advances in advanced lead-acid and fast-charging lead-acid batteries, which dramatically improve the capabilities of lead-based batteries. The report includes a detailed analysis of the micro-drivers in each target application, along with technical comparisons of advanced lead-acid batteries with competing battery technologies. The market opportunities and challenges for stationary, transportation, and motive applications are detailed, as well. Leading market players for each application are profiled, and market revenues are forecast by application and world region through 2020.


    Key Questions Addressed:


    -How are battery developers improving lead-acid battery chemistries?


    -Which applications will be the leading markets for advanced lead-acid batteries?


    -How will advanced lead-acid batteries compete with lithium ion batteries in emerging applications?


    -What are the emerging business models for advanced lead-acid batteries in stationary applications?


    -Who are the key vendors developing advanced lead-acid batteries?


    -Which world regions will lead in terms of unit sales and revenue for advanced lead-acid batteries?


    Who needs this report?


    -Battery technology developers


    -Reserve power system providers


    -Grid storage equipment developers and integrators


    -Automotive manufacturers and suppliers


    -Enterprise IT and telecom managers




    -Investor community


    Table of Contents


    1. Executive Summary


    1.1 Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries: A History of Practical Innovation


    1.1.1 Report Focus


    1.2 The Future of Battery-Based Energy Storage


    2. Market Issues


    2.1 Introduction


    2.2 Application Overview


    2.2.1 Transportation and Motive Applications

  Stop-Start Vehicles and Microhybrids

  Hybrid Locomotives

  Materials Handling


    2.2.2 Stationary Storage

  Paths to Market

  Community and Residential Energy Storage

  Utility-Scale Applications

  Renewables Integration

  Grid Storage

  Case Study: UltraBattery Installation

  Telecommunications Base Stations and Remote Community Power

  Uninterruptible Power Supply


    2.2.3 Summary of Applications


    2.3 Regional Market Issues


    2.3.1 Overview


    2.3.2 North America


  Grid Storage

  Business Environment


    2.3.3 Western Europe


  Grid Storage



    2.3.4 Asia Pacific


  Grid Storage


    2.3.5 Latin America

  Grid Storage


    3. Technology Issues


    3.1 Introduction


    3.2 Definition of Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries


    3.2.1 Enhanced Flooded Batteries


    3.2.2 Valve-Regulated Lead-Acid Batteries

  Absorbed Glass Mat Batteries

  Ceramic Battery


    3.2.3 Sulfation


    3.3 Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries with Carbon Additives


    3.3.1 Lead-Carbon Batteries



    3.4 Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries in Context


    3.5 Costs for Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries


    4. Key Industry Players


    4.1 Overview


    4.2 Lead-Acid Battery Vendors


    4.2.1 Atraverda


    4.2.2 Axion Power


    4.2.3 C&D Technologies


    4.2.4 East Penn Manufacturing


    4.2.5 Enersys


    4.2.6 Exide Technologies


    4.2.7 FIAMM


    4.2.8 Furukawa Battery


    4.2.9 General Electric


    4.2.10 GS Battery


    4.2.11 GS Yuasa


    4.2.12 Johnson Controls Inc.


    4.2.13 Panasonic


    4.2.14 Primearth EV Energy


    4.2.15 Trojan Battery


    4.2.16 Xtreme Power Inc.


    4.3 Ultracapacitor Vendors


    4.3.1 Ioxus


    4.3.2 Maxwell Technologies


    4.4 Systems Integrators and Project Developers


    4.4.1 AES Energy Storage, LLC


    4.4.2 Ecoult


    4.4.3 S&C Electric Company


    4.5 Research and Industry Organizations


    4.5.1 Advanced Lead-Acid Battery Consortium


    4.5.2 Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation


    5. Market Forecasts


    5.1 Overview of Market Forecasts


    5.1.1 Market Forecast Methodology


    5.1.2 Market Forecast Data


    5.1.3 Forecasts by Application


    5.2 Leading Market Application: Transportation


    5.2.1 Stop-Start Vehicles Drive Growth in Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries

  Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries in Context


    5.3 Stationary Applications: UPS Is Leading Opportunity


    5.3.1 Grid Storage: Many Competitors


    5.4 Motive Applications


    6. Company Directory


    7. Acronym and Abbreviation List


    8. Table of Contents


    9. Table of Charts and Figures


    10. Scope of Study, Sources and Methodology, Notes


    List of Charts and Figures


    Advanced Lead-Acid Battery Market Value by Application, World Markets: 2012-2020


    Capacity of Grid Storage Technologies, Excluding Pumped Hydro, World Markets: 2012


    Advanced Lead-Acid Battery Market Value by Region, All Applications, World Markets: 2012-2020


    Technology Penetration in SSVs by Battery Chemistry, World Markets: 2012-2020


    Market Value of Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries for Stationary Applications by Region, World Markets: 2012-2020


    New Installations of Off-Grid Base Stations and Green Base Stations, World Markets: 2013-2020


    Market Value of Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries in Stationary Applications by Stationary End Use, World Markets: 2012-2020


    Market Value of Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries in Motive Applications by Region, World Markets: 2012-2020


    Advanced Lead-Acid Battery Cycle Life Comparison to Other Advanced Batteries


    List of Tables


    Supplier Stop-Start Systems Summary


    Summary of Market Conditions for Advanced Batteries, Utility-Scale Applications


    Summary of Applications for Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries by Category


    Locomotive Types


    Lead-Acid Battery Segmentation by Technical Design


    Summary of the Technical Characteristics of Leading Advanced Lead-Acid Battery Technologies


    Estimated Market Penetration of Advanced Batteries in SSVs by Chemistry: 2012 & 2020


    Advanced Lead-Acid Battery Market Value by Region, All Applications, World Markets: 2012-2020


    Advanced Lead-Acid Battery Market Value by Application, World Markets: 2012-2020


    Market Value of Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries in Stationary Applications by Stationary End Use, World Markets: 2012-2020


    Annual SSV Light Duty Vehicle Battery Sales by Region, World Markets: 2011-2020


    Technology Penetration in SSVs by Battery Chemistry, World Markets: 2012-2020


    Hybrid Locomotive Battery Storage Capacity by Battery Chemistry, Baseline Scenario, World Markets: 2020


    Hybrid Locomotive Battery Storage Capacity by Region, Baseline Scenario, World Markets: 2012-2020


    Advanced Lead-Acid New Installed Capacity for Utility-Scale Applications by Region, World Markets: 2012-2022


    New Advanced Lead-Acid Capacity Deployed for CRES by Region, World Markets: 2012-2022


    Market Value of Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries for Utility-Scale and CRES Applications by Region, World Markets: 2012-2022


    New Installations of Off-Grid Base Stations and Green Base Stations, World Markets: 2013-2020


    To order this report:


    Battery Industry: Advanced Lead-Acid Batteries


    Contact Nicolas: nicolasbombourg@report...
    US: (805)-652-2626
    Intl: +1 805-652-2626
    11 Dec 2012, 08:17 AM Reply Like
  • 5:07 AM The EPA is investigating Consumer Reports' findings that the gas mileage on Ford's Fusion and C-Max wagon hybrids aren't as high as advertised. In its tests, the magazine found that the Fusion had a mileage of 39 mpg and the C-Max 37 MPG, well below Ford's rating of 47 mpg for both vehicles. Ford argues - as one observer does - that the standardized government test doesn't replicate the way consumers drive their vehicles. Comment! [Consumer]
    11 Dec 2012, 05:18 AM Reply Like
  • LT, Ya had to see that coming given the difference between the two testing groups. If there are no errors you have to wonder how they will rectify such a huge discrepancy between the two testing methods. One being more regimented and the other perhaps more real world.


    Lot's of noise of late claiming the government testing is not suited to predicting real world driving MPG results. Some of this coming from the industry which is always trying to gain advantage between players and in meeting the government regs.
    11 Dec 2012, 08:57 AM Reply Like
  • I saw a video comparing the Prius V and the Ford C-Max.


    The journalist was clear that Ford had been more successful than Toyota at gaming the EPA test to their advantage. Experts already knew that the EPA numbers for the C-Max were exaggerated.


    To be clear, the real world numbers are still great, but not as great as on the sticker.
    11 Dec 2012, 09:27 AM Reply Like
  • I've had Consumer Reports for years. I've always trusted their real world mpg ratings over the EPAs. It's been pretty evident for a while now that the auto companies know how to work the system to get a higher rating. The only one I've ever seen go the other way was for the VW jetta TDI diesel. In that case Consumer Reports got better mpg than the EPA did.
    11 Dec 2012, 09:50 AM Reply Like
  • That abuse thing is the only reason I stay invested. Not the hype of 30 batteries here, 50 batteries in a truck belonging to a company with no money and no revenue.


    The things that do keep me in,
    -Hyundai and Kia pay $300 million to settle false mileage claims
    -Article on Ford's C-Max is not the 50 mpg they say but 31-33 under normal driving..
    -AGM's fail after months rendering Start/Stop useless...


    sooner or later this has to drive a different tech.
    11 Dec 2012, 10:06 AM Reply Like
  • Does Consumer Reports evaluate financial products?


    Do they do health insurance?


    Do they evaluate economic pundits and news outlets?


    11 Dec 2012, 10:45 AM Reply Like
  • Ford C-Max Energi gains access to New York HOV lanes



    "Perhaps this bit of good news will distract consumers at a time when EPA is investigating whether Ford is fudging the figures on the mileage capacity for its 2013 C-Max and Fusion standard hybrids. The EPA isn't including the plug-in hybrid Energi versions of these models in its investigation, but the trustworthiness and reliability of all Ford's claims could be called to question by car shoppers."


    EDIT: Time to get ePower access to these lanes :-)
    11 Dec 2012, 11:36 AM Reply Like
  • Agreed and continuing testing by majors. What's depressing is that last April when the NS order was announced, I don't think we could have imagined that we would go another 8 months without a meaningful design win or even installation of the NS order.


    Yes, there has been movement on smaller issues, i.e. the 150K grant, the HUB, the Epower truck, a major Asian car maker testing, and rumblings on the APU market.


    Still the only installation we have to point to this year is the Net-Zero Navy Yard building and they were called some kind of gel batteries if I recall correctly.


    Looking forward to some additional installations.


    P.S. - management probably also thought we would get a design win given the funding approach.
    11 Dec 2012, 11:42 AM Reply Like
  • Also, there's a new report on the Energy Storage Technologies (EST) Market 2011-2021 out, published by Companies and Below is the link and extract from the Report Overview. At the web site, there are tabs that show the report outline, etc. I'm not predisposed to paying that much to obtain the report.



    The Energy Storage Technologies (EST) Market 2011-2021 - The increasing volatility in the world's electricity grids, driven by the growing global demand for electrical products and the rising penetration levels of intermittent renewable energy sources, has created an arena for energy storage technologies to thrive. This latest visiongain energy report examines the vital EST sector and its prospects over the next decade. Based on our research and analysis of company activity, we have calculated the global energy storage technologies (EST) market for utility applications to reach $666m in 2011.


    Report overview


    This report provides thorough analysis and quantified forecasts for the global, and top ten national energy storage technologies markets over the period 2011-2021. The forecasting and analysis has been underpinned by extensive consultation with expert opinion. The transcripts of 3 original interviews from some of the major market players are included within the report including:


    • A123 Systems Inc.
    • Axion Power International Inc.
    • Maxwell Technologies Inc.


    The report analyses a wealth of data and introduces a clear analysis of where the EST market is headed, based on diverse factors and insight into the market, anticipating how and why the market will evolve from 2011 onwards. The various drivers and restraints of global and national markets are assessed in order to provide the reader with a clear understanding of the future progression of each individual market.


    The report covers the major current and future storage technologies and their application for energy storage services. The report also includes a SWOT analysis of the energy storage technologies market that was compiled from several original interviews from some of the major market players.


    Report scope


    The Energy Storage Technologies (EST) Market 2011-2021 report examines this sector critically with a comprehensive review of recent technological developments, contracts, news reports, industry publications, market analysis and expert consultation. The report provides detailed sales forecasts for the global market and the ten largest national markets.


    A SWOT analysis for strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats is included as well as an assessments of market drivers and restraints. The prominent technologies and their applications are covered and potential future technologies are examined. This report contains three original in-depth interviews with industry experts. This comprehensive package of analysis is not available anywhere else.


    Key questions answered


    How much will the energy storage technologies market increase over the period 2011-2021?
    How much will individual nations spend on energy storage technologies between 2011 and 2021?
    Who are the leading companies in the energy storage technologies industry?
    Where are the growth opportunities over the next decade - in which geographical region and with which technologies?
    11 Dec 2012, 08:33 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks, Rupers. I see we are in both reports, which is good.


    I would still like it better if "UltraBattery or PbC" were mentioned as a conjoined pair instead of "Ultrabattery" alone as illustrative of options built around replacing an electrode as opposed to fooling around with additives to the paste.
    11 Dec 2012, 09:16 AM Reply Like
  • Here are a few of my thoughts that I would like to share.


    In my view, ONE of the problems with the stock price is the perception of the product. I'm in my 60's and I remember a time when you couldn't see a product advertised on TV that didn't say: NEW and IMPROVED! That used to sell like crazy. Now a days, improved doesn't sell as much as Different and better. What sells isn't so much the "better" as the idea of something totally new, like lithium-ion.


    One other thing, is that the PBc can be perceived as a transition technology not there long enough to invest in. Well... that certainly is possible but from what we are seeing now in the development on the "new" technologies in batteries, it would appear that the transition isn't going to go as fast as it did with all the electronic technology and the "transition period" may take so long that in the end, it will be well worth investing in "old and improved" batteries such as the PBc.


    All in all, I do believe that time is on our side. People will get to realize that "different" doesn't always mean "better" and that old but improved can mean better. Better is always good even if it doesn't have the "glitter" of different and "NEW" (new that isn't always better!).


    One other thing I've noticed is that TG is a fantastic speaker but he does have small things to correct. It's always better to use expressions such as "soon" or "in the near future", ESPECIALLY when what he hasn't got any control over what he's talking about. For example, the URL certification isn't in his power. Assuredly it will come, and it will be news when it does but it will come when it is given to him (and us!). The good thing is that he really doesn't do that mistake very often :o)


    I honestly believe that time is on our side. Customers will realize that improved is good and they will learn to see that having something better NOW is much better than waiting for something that appears fantastic but that is still at the stage of promises.


    And of course, Axion management has been so good at finding opportunities and being cautious with the money, that this company is one of the best situations to benefit from these realizations :o)


    Have a good holiday everyone. Next year should definitely be a good one!
    11 Dec 2012, 09:15 AM Reply Like
  • I was reading a book about branding, Brand Simple, and they talk about the days of "New and Improved". Or was it the book "What Americans Really Want."


    Your observation was exactly what their research found. Different sells. People are no longer happy with incremental progress.
    11 Dec 2012, 01:30 PM Reply Like
  • Karima:
    Excellent comment.
    Have a nice day-Carlos
    11 Dec 2012, 09:26 AM Reply Like
  • As read first on this concentrator:


    Blackrock has cut its stake in Tesla.
    11 Dec 2012, 09:31 AM Reply Like
  • Is there hope for affordable lead-acid EV batteries?
    Why Not Improve The Cheap Chemistry?



    Previously mentioned:
    APC 174:


    APC 166:


    APC 152:


    " I believe we can combine our high-power, low-cost battery with a lower-cost, higher-energy li-ion battery to make a hybrid pack that could reduce the overall cost by a factor of two. I think it's possible to make a high-energy li-ion battery for maybe $400 per kWh or less, and if I take, say, 10 kWh of high-energy Li-ion battery and attach it to 2-1/2 or three kWh of EPS high-power battery, I can shift the power load to the EPS battery and use energy from the li-ion battery for cruising. The combined cost of this system should be 40-50 percent less than a li-ion pack optimized for both high power and high energy."


    Dhar has kept this effort low-profile because he did not want to be another over-optimistic battery developer going public with bold statements and promises he ultimately can't keep. He has seen that happen way too often. "I understand why people sometimes have to do that," he says, "to raise capital. In our case, we are fortunate that raising capital is not our issue today, or likely to be tomorrow." That is because, he says, EPS has more than sufficient backing from his partner Dennis Townsend, founder and chairman of Baltimore-based Townsend Capital."


    Must be nice not to have to worry about raising capital. And hey, Baltimore's not that far from New Castle ...
    11 Dec 2012, 11:31 AM Reply Like
  • >wtblanchard ... The comment section seems to be a little on the hostile side concerning LABs and leaves me with the impression that "CHEAP" Li-on, going forward, has not been abandoned. On the bright side, the magical claims from Envia for that $125kwH has receded a bit.


    I wonder if these dual mode battery packs that I've seen more press about from multiple vendors will move things like Exide.
    11 Dec 2012, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • About Townsend Capital:


    Interesting investments:
    11 Dec 2012, 11:51 AM Reply Like
  • To my mind, the new attention on the potential of lead-acid batteries is very heartening. And bullish for AXPW.
    11 Dec 2012, 02:46 PM Reply Like
  • Now we need all the copycat research houses to come out with similar lead acid reports ...
    11 Dec 2012, 02:48 PM Reply Like
  • DRich, One example of many comments on the article. I'm not so sure I'd garner many conclusions from the comment section.


    "Actually, over the long run, if you start out with the right batteries ( A123's nanotech lifepo4 would be a good example ), you can already come out cheaper than lead acid.


    Solar panels have the same problem - they have excellent economics over a 30 year timespan, but the upfront cost is a killer."
    11 Dec 2012, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • >iindelco ... I agree with you on the probable economics of solar panels although I, for lack of caring, don't know the calender life of a panel. I don't put much faith in the charge acceptance of Li-on anything much past maybe 5 years despite the PR advertising and no faith in the ability to recycle. Now I realize comments are probably written by LAB cranks but I'm intrigued by the growing interest/belief of dual mode Li-on and/or LABs with that interest being how to exploit a misplaced belief to make money from. I, too, think dual battery kinds (and maybe mixed device suchas caps+bat) might work for various application, those applications are very limited, expensive and require much thought as to the proper mix. I think ZBB + PbC would make a good mix but I'm looking to exploit misplaced enthusiasm if I can find it.
    11 Dec 2012, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • DRich, I'm in agreement with you that hybrid systems have application.


    Just wanted to make sure we put the comments section of the attached article from WTB in proper perspective. People still running around chanting AONE as the low cost provider as one example.


    And I always get concerned when people start talking about technology as being the best thing since sliced bread if you only look at it over a 30 year period. Heck, we can't get industry to commit to those cycles for investment very often any more on proven tech.
    11 Dec 2012, 01:05 PM Reply Like
  • DRich commented: I think ZBB + PbC would make a good mix but I'm looking to exploit misplaced enthusiasm if I can find it.


    My understanding of ZnBr hybrid flow batteries is that their power output is reaction rate limited. If you want more POWER you need more zinc electrode mass. That equals more money up front.
    I also suspect that demanding higher power from the ZnBr flow battery lowers the energy efficiency.
    The PbC as an "energy buffer" would make a good partner with the ZnBr flow battery. Since flow batteries are almost always fixed installations, the lower energy/mass of the PbC is not a cost factor.
    11 Dec 2012, 03:46 PM Reply Like
  • Car 54 where are you? ;)


    GS Battery intros Hybrid Energy System


    "GS Battery (USA) has introduced their Hybrid Energy System (HES).


    Equipped with 48 volts of ECO R advanced lead acid battery technology, the integrated, compact unit addresses the most common renewable energy storage needs in an easily installed, indoor/outdoor cabinet.


    Nine HES cabinets are in-service with 3 systems deployed by EPRI for the Tennessee Valley Authority SMART Station Program and 6 storage-only systems deployed as part of a complete EV charge station by Oak Ridge National Labs' U.S. Department of Energy EV Charger trial program."

    11 Dec 2012, 01:20 PM Reply Like
  • 12/11/2012 11:00:00 AM


    UP to display Genset switcher at Chicago yard


    Tomorrow, Union Pacific Railroad plans to introduce one of seven low-emission Genset locomotives that are being used at the Class I's Proviso yard in Chicago.
    11 Dec 2012, 01:27 PM Reply Like
  • "Gensets are designed to reduce nitrous oxide emissions up to 90 percent and particulate matter emissions up to 80 percent, and cut fuel usage by more than 30 percent compared with older conventional locomotives."


    Older conventional locomotives? I'm confused. Isn't the NS999 supposed to be replacing Genset engines? So is UP announcing that they're advancing to a point that is one step behind where NS is already and two steps behind the NS999?
    11 Dec 2012, 04:30 PM Reply Like
  • Genset locomotives are pretty new technology. It's my understanding that the NS 999 and genset locomotives are competing solutions for the same problem – older locomotives that have to be upgraded to meet new EPA rules.


    IIRC, DRich has said that a new genset locomotive will be a good deal more costly than a battery powered retrofit, which would put the law of economic gravity on Axion's side if the NS 999 can do the required work.
    11 Dec 2012, 04:48 PM Reply Like
  • >JP ... Quite right. Prices back in 2001 were from about $1,500,000 for DC units like an SD70 to about $2,300,000 for an AC unit such as the SD90MAC, with the average price for a new locomotive at about $1,700,000. So figure a rebuilt standard diesel-electric locomotive average at $850,000


    A genset is about 6x that rebuild or $5,100,000 (give or take) according to Genesee & Wyoming Inc. (GWI)



    I'm guessing that the NS999 will come in just shy of $2,500,000 and no fuel cost for 5 years between rebuild (if all goes well). I also don't know what the NS999 charge bay will cost and might make up for that fuel savings during the first rebuild cycle.
    11 Dec 2012, 05:25 PM Reply Like
  • Xtreme Power Launches Regulation Power Management Product: RPM 2000


    12/11/2012 9:00 AM EST



    "The RPM 2000 is a 2 MW, 15-minute duration power management and energy storage system engineered to provide unmatched high-speed, precision frequency regulation service. The RPM 2000 combines the real-time controls of the Xtreme Active Control Technology™ (XACT™) and intelligent power conversion systems with advanced lithium energy storage technology to accurately respond to grid disturbances – up to 50 times faster than conventional generation options. In addition, the RPM 2000 is a fully automated system that is highly reliable with low operating costs and no start-up costs. Its flexible and modular design allows for easy installation, incremental expansion, and simplified project siting.
    For more about the RPM 2000, visit: "
    11 Dec 2012, 01:53 PM Reply Like
  • >wtblanchard ... If I'm reading that graph correctly (really not sure) this new marvel is 100x (?) slower than a PowerCube. No idea on the "precision", whatever that really means, to compare since there is nothing published I know of.
    11 Dec 2012, 02:03 PM Reply Like
  • Xtreme is selling "lithium energy storage" now?
    11 Dec 2012, 02:19 PM Reply Like
  • Wonder how they rate on PJM's accuracy performance score ...
    11 Dec 2012, 02:33 PM Reply Like
  • Stephan,
    You took the question right from my brain. But reading the article makes me believe the lithium battery is pretty fast at FR. Hope I'm wrong on that point.
    11 Dec 2012, 04:15 PM Reply Like
  • OK, so they launched it. Now we see if anyone buys it.
    11 Dec 2012, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • I'm guessing lithium energy storage costs more than PbC. Not a good sign for Xtreme if they are suddenly switching battery chemistry. (due to fires?)
    11 Dec 2012, 04:28 PM Reply Like
  • I'm thinking:
    Price probably in the area of double for the batteries.
    A much more complicated BMS.
    A TMS (Thermal management system) Large, powerful, complicated and expensive. Also an energy drain, while the batteries may or may not be more efficient, after you add in a TMS the system as a whole won't be.
    A large fire suppression system. PbC will need one for the electronics; not for the batteries themselves.


    It might be faster than PbC, but at 55ms it can't be much faster.
    A faster discharge time? Possible. That has not been listed as a concern but possible.
    Smaller footprint? Possible. Withe the extra stuff needed not much if any smaller.


    Remember NS rejected Li Ion for for many of the same reasons.
    11 Dec 2012, 05:02 PM Reply Like
  • Pike Webinar -
    Remote Microgrids: Village, Island, Industrial Mine, and Mobile Military Power Grids
    Hefty fines for Mass. utilities for storm response

    Hello AXPW!!!!!!
    11 Dec 2012, 02:19 PM Reply Like
  • Now this?


    US Subsidiary of GS Yuasa introduces energy storage systems for renewables and EV charging


    ...Equipped with 48 volts of ECO R advanced lead acid battery technology, the integrated, compact unit is targeted at common renewable energy storage needs and is packaged in an easily installed, indoor/outdoor cabinet.


    11 Dec 2012, 03:06 PM Reply Like
  • Carlos,
    I could be wrong but I think the ECO R is just an AGM battery with a different marketing emphasis. Hard telling since they don't really describe it in any press release I have found.
    11 Dec 2012, 04:13 PM Reply Like
  • The ECO R line of advanced lead acid batteries is made up of four products that offer advanced nano-carbon technology and life expectancy of up to 10 years.


    The ECO R SLC70-4V is a 70 Ah, 4 volt design with nano-carbon technology using tubular plate and patented granular silica technology. For use in both residential and commercial storage applications, this battery provides up to 4,000 deep discharge cycles and is UL listed.


    Designed for large capacity applications, the ECO R SLE is a 2 V battery that provides up to 3,000 deep discharge cycles. Two models are available: the SLE-500, rated at 500Ah and the SLE-1000, rated at 1,000Ah. Both can be deployed in multiple modules to make up a 48 V system for larger PV systems.


    Residential and small commercial systems would benefit from the ECO R SLX, a 246 Ah, 12 V, compact AGM design which can provide up to 1,000 deep discharge cycles.


    The ECO R SNS Series is an AGM line of 2 V (8 models), 6 V and 12 V (1 model each) designed for high energy UPS storage in wind and photovoltaic applications. Capacity ranges from 50 Ah up to 3,000 Ah and can be used in larger residential and commercial systems.


    “We believe energy storage is the key to making renewable energy cost effective, and we are excited to offer our advanced technology batteries in the USA Market,” said Jay Northey, Executive Vice President and General Manager of GS Battery (USA) Inc. ”We have many years of experience with these advanced technology batteries in Japan and the ECO R product line supports our mission to enter the renewable energy market utilizing our global expertise and proven technology.”


    For more on the ECO R series, see
    11 Dec 2012, 04:16 PM Reply Like
  • HTL called today's market price.
    11 Dec 2012, 05:01 PM Reply Like
  • He sure did. Now we see if it forms a bottom we can build on...
    11 Dec 2012, 05:05 PM Reply Like
  • I sometimes wonder, given the concentration of holdings this group represents, if HTL's technical sharing doesn't impact the price action for short periods of time (a day or two). As an example, if you were thinking of adding you might just hold off briefly given the possibility of 5 to 10% less in your cost basis.


    Oh, I don't really care about the day to day stuff as much as the medium term trending so I'm not suggesting HTL stop for a moment. But you do have to wonder as the liquidity in this stock is pretty low at times and it is a penny so it doesn't take much capital to move it around 5 %. In the end it matters little but it is fun to watch. Maybe we need to do a sage to price correlation study! LOL
    11 Dec 2012, 05:23 PM Reply Like
  • I've wondered sometimes if the only people actively buying AXPW are the 173 followers and we just follow a self-fulfilling prophecy. Kind of like the Twilight Zone.
    11 Dec 2012, 06:21 PM Reply Like
  • >metroneanderthal ... We probably are and that's great. Makes close up parking easier to find at the company picnic.
    11 Dec 2012, 06:24 PM Reply Like
  • There is no way to know, so this is a guess & not even a good opinion.... but I believe the MM's have found a penny stock that trades volume more than most. So they do work it harder than most pennies.
    Otherwise, There are times I feel like someone is accumulating AXPW on the sly.
    I always wonder where the selling volume come from on days like today though....and who is buying almost half a million shares ?


    I am not sold on the inflection point short of major news....and I mean major news....because the coming funding is a weight on the pps. Therefore, normally good news won't move the needle much.
    It looks more and more like a .25 offering and everyone knows it but us.
    11 Dec 2012, 06:58 PM Reply Like
  • we close with >10k trading under 29 cents. if you actually try and buy shares in bulk, it's hard not to move the needle up. someone is painting the close imo.
    11 Dec 2012, 08:00 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu, Appears so. 2k shares to move it into the .28 USD range and a bid at mid .29 near EOD but no takers.


    Someone is not worried about the paint drying as they have the brush in their hand. Never a dull moment.
    11 Dec 2012, 08:14 PM Reply Like
  • There are probably lurkers like me who have bought shares. We read and try to learn. Some probably are on the cusp of buying, but somewhat leery of OTB penny stock -- not sure whether it's the real deal or not. Some are trying to time the bottom feed.


    One thing for sure, you all have an audience of buyers or potential buyers.
    11 Dec 2012, 09:53 PM Reply Like
  • >All ... This is OT but since we are all deep into the OTC it might seem interesting ... and scary at the same time. It has nothing to do with energy storage.

    11 Dec 2012, 06:42 PM Reply Like
  • DRich,
    I have to wonder if some of that has been caused by A123 suddenly becoming a penny stock? When you suddenly have a penny stock where 75 million shares trade in one day, you have to think it will have an effect on the averages.
    12 Dec 2012, 10:23 AM Reply Like
  • OT


    UPDATE 1-SolarCity postpones IPO, reason not clear-underwriter



    By Olivia Oran and Nichola Groom


    Dec 11 (Reuters) - Solar panel installer SolarCity Corp has postponed its initial public offering set to price on Tuesday, according to an underwriter and a market source.
    The San Mateo, California-based company had intended to price 10.1 million shares at a range of $13 to $15.


    It was not immediately clear why SolarCity delayed its offering.


    A representative for SolarCity was not available for comment.


    Although the clean technology sector has suffered some high profile flameouts with the shuttered solar company Solyndra and the bankruptcy of battery maker A123 Systems, SolarCity had been considered the alternative energy industry's most promising IPO candidate since electric car company Tesla Motors Inc's 2010 debut.
    Tesla's founder and chief executive, Elon Musk, is SolarCity's chairman and the first cousin of its co-founders, Lyndon and Peter Rive.
    SolarCity's IPO underwriters include Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse and Bank of America's Merrill Lynch.
    The company was scheduled to trade on the Nasdaq on Wednesday under the ticker "SCTY."
    11 Dec 2012, 07:27 PM Reply Like
  • Just saw it. Here's another link with some possible reasons.


    "Complicated financials in a solar firm with legal issues makes it difficult to make it through the IPO gate."

    11 Dec 2012, 07:58 PM Reply Like
  • I guess that means Tesla will be down today because the natives have seen St. Elon bleed. But then again it could be up as the compassionate show their support.
    11 Dec 2012, 11:43 PM Reply Like
  • The Elon faithful scream....



    Now back to the car operations. Hopefully not "another brick in the wall".
    11 Dec 2012, 11:52 PM Reply Like
  • OT
    It seems IBM has developed a chip 1,000 times faster than anything else. I should start shipping in 2013 and not cost much more to make than a normal chip "a few dollars to make". Sales price is not even hinted at.
    IBM debuts CMOS silicon nanophotonics



    For the future
    IBM shows off quantum computing advances, says practical qubit computers are close


    (Close 10-15 years)
    11 Dec 2012, 09:07 PM Reply Like
  • Froggey77,
    The first article was dated two years ago.
    11 Dec 2012, 09:33 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    Sorry wrong article, 2010 was the proof of concept. Now they are saying commercially viable.


    IBM creates first cheap, commercially viable, electronic-photonic integrated chip
    By Sebastian Anthony on December 10, 2012 at 12:01 am


    After more than a decade of research, and a proof of concept in 2010, IBM Research has finally cracked silicon nanophotonics (or CMOS-integrated nanophotonics, CINP, to give its full name). IBM has proven that it can produce these chips on a commercial process, and they could be on the market within a couple of years. This is primarily big news for supercomputing and the cloud, where the limited bandwidth between servers is a major bottleneck.


    There are two key breakthroughs here. First, IBM has managed to build a monolithic silicon chip that integrates both electrical (transistors, capacitors, resistors) and optical (modulators, photodetectors, waveguides) components. Monolithic means that the entire chip is fabricated from a single crystal of silicon, on a single production line; i.e. the optical components are produced at the same time as the electrical components, using the same process. There aren’t two separate regions on the chip that each deal with different signals; the optical and electrical components are all mixed up together to form an integrated nanophotonic circuit.


    Second, and perhaps more importantly, IBM has manufactured these chips on its 90nm SOI process — the same process that was used to produce the original Xbox 360, PS3, and Wii CPUs. According to Solomon Assefa, a nanophotonics scientist at IBM Research who worked on this breakthrough, this was a very difficult step. It’s one thing to produce a nanophotonic device in a standalone laboratory environment — but another thing entirely to finagle an existing, commercial 90nm process into creating something it was never designed to do. It sounds like IBM spent most of the last two years trying to get it to work.


    The payoff makes all the hard work worthwhile, though. IBM now has a cheap chip that can provide a truly mammoth speed boost to computers. It’s not too hyperbolic to say that this advancement will single-handedly allow for the continuation of Moore’s law for the foreseeable future.


    In these chips, there are optical modulators and germanium photodetectors that can send and receive data at 25 gigabits-per-second (Gbps), using four-channel wave-division multiplexing (WDM). In the picture at the top of the story, you see a single modulator/photodetector transceiver, with copper wiring (yellow), and transistors (red dots on the far right side). Assefa tells us that this single block is 0.5×0.5mm, and that IBM has successfully built a 5x5mm die with 50 transceivers. Connect two of these dies together with a fiber channel and you have an interconnect with 1.2 terabits of bandwidth.


    Compare this to existing fiber-optic interconnects, which are generally very bulky and expensive, and you can see why IBM is so excited. While we couldn’t even get a ballpark figure out of IBM, the use of a standard 90nm process means that these chips probably cost no more than a few dollars to produce. IBM is targeting super and cloud computing first, where bandwidth between nodes is a serious bottleneck — but there’s no reason that these chips won’t eventually find their way into consumer hands.


    Ultimately, we are talking about a standard computer chip that could be integrated into any electronic device, without significantly impacting the price. Assefa tells us that the this nanophotonic tech could, in theory, be integrated into future CPUs or SoCs. This is the chip that could power the next-generation optical interconnect between your desktop’s CPU, GPU, and RAM. This is the chip that could directly wire your PC into your ISP’s fiber-optic network, potentially unleashing terabit-or-higher download speeds. This chip is a big deal.
    11 Dec 2012, 11:19 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks for the update.
    12 Dec 2012, 12:21 AM Reply Like
  • I am generally very optimistic about Axion's prospects, and I usually feel that the shares I own are going to be worth a million dollars in two years or so.


    Articles about other companies installing motive or stationary solutions in markets we want to capture usually do not bother me because PbC is better.


    But one article that was posted, about a Japanese company that is selling a HUB-like product in the US, has me feeling a little doubtful.


    I hope we hear some seriously positive news at the next CC, even if it amounts only to that we also are succeeding in selling into the home power conditioning market.


    The ultimate would be progress with BMW or the Asian automaker who is looking into PbC.


    EV looks like a worse idea on this board every day, but we keep reading about money being thrown at it, charging stations being built, and the meager number of EV's on the road increasing.


    The 6-month AXPW chart is showing lower highs and lower lows, but on this downswing, or any downswing, we could break out decisively on serious good news.


    11 Dec 2012, 10:11 PM Reply Like
  • Billa, regarding the hub-like product, I think its worth noting that GS battery is targeting a slightly different market. Its solar storage whereas Rosewater is targeting regulated, smoothed electricity for electronics--not solar powered EVs.


    That said I can see some overlap from people that can afford to buy either system. And I'm not sure that the hub takes full advantage of the PbCs strengths, so AGM batteries may be better able to compete there, as compared to say on an NS999.
    12 Dec 2012, 09:06 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane -


    Thanks for the clarification.


    Your mentioning solar reminds me that renewed interest in Axion's PowerCube could also propel us forward, any smoothing news, any behind-the-meter news.
    12 Dec 2012, 09:43 AM Reply Like
  • I hope somebody who knows better will correct me if I'm wrong on the Hub.
    12 Dec 2012, 09:55 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane, Both units are set up for the integration of solar as a possible power source. I think the primary difference might reside in the power conditioning between the two units. We'd have to get total harmonic distortion specs for both units though.


    This is more a factor of the inverters chosen.
    12 Dec 2012, 10:02 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco -


    There was something about an indoor/outdoor cabinet. I would be surprised if Rosewater didn't have that, too.
    12 Dec 2012, 02:26 PM Reply Like
  • Billa, They are using a coated aluminum enclosure which surprised me. I'd expect it to be more expensive than steel.


    Anyway, Rosewater is using a standard enclosure with a specific rating. The one I saw on their site had louvers so it's not rated for water, oil etc. I'm sure they can change the type enclosure but any heat transfer and possible build up of hydrogen would need to be managed. I'll go back to their site and review the NEMA rating again. If I recall correctly in the preliminary specs the NEMA rating called out didn't correlate with the picture of the unit attached at the time.
    12 Dec 2012, 02:41 PM Reply Like
  • Billa, Here is a document that calls out the NEMA ratings for enclosures. Rosewater is specifying a NEMA 3R enclosure. This would be for indoor/outdoor use but in the case of outdoor use it's only for personnel egress protection and a degree of shedding water and snow. Really for a pretty well covered area if used outdoors.


    Any coatings for appearance or corrosion protection are managed separately.

    12 Dec 2012, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco -


    Thanks. That's an interesting document.


    Aside from the enclosure difference, if there is one, and possibly the HUB's more rigorous power smoothing spec, if it is, I can't see any reason why Rosewater couldn't have made those sales.


    When your foot is the door, you have customer reviews and whatnot. I just hate seeing our guy trying to break into a market we should already have a piece of.
    12 Dec 2012, 03:17 PM Reply Like
  • Billa, I just looked again at the GS Battery unit. It also has a NEMA 3R enclosure. So perhaps a little less mass but once you load in the batteries and all the other stuff what's another hundred pounds?


    "Rated NEMA 3R, the cabinet is built of outdoor grade aluminum and has a power coat finish."

    12 Dec 2012, 05:57 PM Reply Like
  • Billa, This may interest you and perhaps others.

    12 Dec 2012, 06:10 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks as usual, iind. Looking through that presentation I saw PV-charger-grid, PV-battery-charger-grid, and the like. No mention is made of power input to the battery pack from any source other than PV and/or grid.


    The HUB is designed to take power from PV, grid, other renewable sources such as wind, and from on site off-grid generators (lpg, gasoline, diesel, etc.).


    It was interesting to see cycle lives for all of VRLA variants offered limited to DOD range of 70%/50% and see maximum discharge rates of 2C for the 12V battery ("Mono-block") with 1C DODs for 2V and 4V offerings.


    Li-ion battery maximum discharge rate of 6C for 60 seconds and 4C continuous.
    12 Dec 2012, 07:14 PM Reply Like
  • Yet another OEM looking into secondary use of EV packs, just as I have stated. I'd say this "hillbilly" is in good company ;)
    13 Dec 2012, 09:13 AM Reply Like
  • There many who would cogently argue that all the noise about second life use of lithium-ion battery packs is simply a way of avoiding the ugly reality that lithium-ion batteries are a recycling nightmare that turns a $50 a pound product into a non-refinable multi-metal alloy and penny a pound construction fill.
    13 Dec 2012, 10:08 AM Reply Like
  • If there is usable capacity left in a pack that has already been paid for it only makes sense to use it.
    14 Dec 2012, 09:15 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3, Depends on what it costs to change the unit to its new function and if it meets the requirements of the new task.


    Many devices are sent to the scrap yard not because they no longer function but because they not longer do it well enough or it is too expensive to keep them working.
    14 Dec 2012, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • Jrp3
    "If there is usable capacity left in a pack that has already been paid for it only makes sense to use it."
    For a DIY kind of guy it does.
    For a company with a product warranty; putting in used batteries might not make any sense. Just as many reputable garages will not put a used engine into a car, While they may not have to pay for a replacement they will lose money on the labor.
    Used batteries may well not be cost effective.
    14 Dec 2012, 11:10 AM Reply Like
  • Lithium Batteries May Fail Earlier than Anyone Anticipated.

    14 Dec 2012, 05:54 PM Reply Like
  • The title of the article is misleading and has nothing to do with the discovery. We know that lithium cells will fail over time, they just discovered a previously unknown mechanism of that failure, which, with further research, may point a way to avoid or mitigate that previously unknown mechanism. There is no suggestion that lithium batteries will fail earlier than expected.
    15 Dec 2012, 09:19 AM Reply Like
  • ii and frog,
    Sure, I'm not saying it's a done deal and that there might not be challenges, I'm just saying it's unwise to dismiss the concept outright. In a standby backup application the demands on a pack are relatively low and the electronics need not be that complicated. A power conditioning unit like the HUB is a different matter and indeed may not be an appropriate use of a used lithium pack.
    15 Dec 2012, 09:26 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3: "... may point a way to avoid or mitigate that previously unknown mechanism".


    Have to agree there. Just as Axion apparently found a cheap way to ameliorate positive-plate/grid deterioration (IIRC, from the patent description, adding "channels" along with coatings?) when the formerly-common negative electrode failure issue was solved, I expect the same will occur here.


    As a side thought, I wonder if this deposition is another manifestation of the previously-known "dendrite growth" which was responsible for internal shorts, with disastrous results, in certain chemistries. Maybe a solution here also provides a solution there.


    Regardless, we shouldn't be too optimistic about it - some fairly expensive R & D effort and time will likely be required, followed by all the usual bench, field, "fleet", ... testing before the solution starts getting wide-spread adoption.


    And we have to be cautious about the solution itself possibly being "too expensive", while Li-ion in general is calling for great strides in lowered $/KwH.


    Time-lines from the pundits, along with other expected benefits, could be at risk.


    It seems Mother nature is always putting speed bumps where we don't expect them.


    15 Dec 2012, 01:46 PM Reply Like
  • Hey HTL, Welcome back. Hope you get over that nasty bug you brought back with ya. :)
    15 Dec 2012, 02:06 PM Reply Like
  • HT,
    If I remember correctly Jay Whitacre of Aquion mentioned in a talk that pulse charge reversal might be able to break up lithium plating during charging.
    16 Dec 2012, 10:25 AM Reply Like
  • Jrp3: that would eliminate the cost issue. A nice easy solution maybe.


    Since "there's no free lunch" though, we have to watch for the unexpected downside. Maybe needs consideration of duration, temperatures, ... side-effects on the rest of the stuff? Smart engineers will address those though - just thinking: "too good to be true" usually is.


    Taking a different tack, usually the cheapest fix is "zero defects" to start with. So it may be that a doping change of some kind is better.


    16 Dec 2012, 10:44 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks Iindelco. I can report that bug's after-effects are still happily decimating my system. But it's starting to taper off a bit. Ate my first full meal in over a week last night. Decided that a brute-force attack on the attacker might be the solution. So I shoved a ton in one end and so far it hasn't made it to the other end yet or tried to return to whence it came from either - that's a positive.


    I'm now "cautiously optimistic".


    16 Dec 2012, 10:51 AM Reply Like
  • I hate to say it HTL, but if one of us has to be sick I'm glad it's you and not me. I'm a terrible whiner when I don't feel well.
    16 Dec 2012, 10:53 AM Reply Like
  • John: "I'm a terrible whiner when I don't feel well".


    So am I but the only place I get the feedback I really want is from myself so I just whine internally, metaphorically slap myself across the face a couple times while shouting "You've got to keep it together son!" and keep on chugging ... with small concessions in speed and ambition made to help the healing process.




    That reminds me - watching the History Channel's "Mankind" series last night about the cholera outbreaks that ravaged the known world for so long until Dr. Stone applied some observation and deductive reasoning.


    Reminds me how fortunate we are to live in the times we do. That nasty bacteria doubles population in it's host every 13 minutes.


    16 Dec 2012, 11:10 AM Reply Like
  • You just reminded me of a really funny story from 1998. Rachel and I went down to Brazil on a due diligence trip and spent a couple days tramping through the jungle looking at granite mines. The client had a wonderful hotel that he'd built for his daughter to run in the middle of nowhere and she'd imported a 5-star chef who was known for his steak tatar. I had it for dinner the last night and then got on a plane to Portugal the following day. The first thing Rachel pulled out of the seat pocket was a Cholera Warning that cautioned against raw beef. One of those too little too late things from my perspective. I didn't have any problems but I did have a few anxious moments.
    16 Dec 2012, 11:24 AM Reply Like
  • LoL! John, did you spend the whole flight fixated on a point in space awaiting the sudden onslaught that never came?


    I'm glad it didn't come and has become a funny story instead.


    16 Dec 2012, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • That pretty well describes the feel of the day. It's just another proof that worry solves nothing.
    16 Dec 2012, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • HTL, Just getting back after a break. Hope your immune system is continuing to support its most avid cheerleader!
    16 Dec 2012, 06:03 PM Reply Like
  • Iindelco: Thx. Yes, as the day has progressed I'm seeing, and feeling, steady improvement.


    With tonight's dinner, I think I'll try some small fresh pineapple cubes and see how they do. Knowing my old system as well as I do, I give it a 95%+ chance that the results are good and this round of illness is past.


    BTW, to keep things in perspective, I really can't complain much. I am normally so healthy and so infrequently ill that I don't even remember the last time I saw a doctor for other than normal dental check-ups, glasses, etc. Might have been decades past.


    I am *much* more fortunate than many others in that regard and am thankful for that. If I can just get off my butt and start clearing trees, kicking the ball around with grand kids, etc. I expect many more years of the same. But if I just keep sitting ...


    16 Dec 2012, 06:15 PM Reply Like
  • Fiat adding SS to their lowest priced new van offering as an option for 180 pounds sterling or 290 USD.


    First Drive: Fiat Punto Van

    11 Dec 2012, 11:27 PM Reply Like
  • ii,
    I was telling my wife about this and for Spanish speakers the name Punto van is a hoot, especially if you mispronounce it without the n.
    My grandson did the milk through the nose thing. ;-)
    12 Dec 2012, 12:46 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed, Understood.


    When I transferred a bunch of equipment to Mexico I went though all the comments on some of the wording in some things like machine tags. I could only get so much translation and work done in a plant that's being shuttered. Not much assistance to be found.


    BTW, I'm old enough to remember when GM tried to start selling the Nova in Puerto Rico. Good choice.


    Only milk! lol
    12 Dec 2012, 01:02 PM Reply Like
  • Some interesting price points for diesel hybrids in Europe. Ouch.


    Diesel Hybrids Arrive at Last


    "PSA’s Hybrid4 technology uses a 1.1 kWh NiMH battery pack that gives an electric-only range of about 2.5 miles. The premium for hybrid drive on the 3008 is £4,200 ($6,700), or about 18% extra. The Peugeot 508 with Hybrid4 drive retails at £31,450 ($50,100), which represents a premium of about £7,000 ($11,150) over the non-hybrid version."


    "The only other production announcement has come from Volvo, which takes things up a notch by including a much bigger battery and the ability to recharge it without the engine. With a Li-ion battery pack rated at 11.2 kWh, the upcoming V60 diesel hybrid will be capable of about 30 electric-only miles."


    "Volvo made its announcement just as PSA was bringing its diesel hybrid to the market, and there has been some fanfare about the first-year production run of 1,000 units being sold out, so it must be worth the £47,000 ($74,900) price tag to the European early adopters. That is £12,780 ($20,400) more than the R-Lux version of the V60 with the same diesel engine, an increment of about 37%. These numbers are softened in some markets where rebates and government incentives apply; for example in the United Kingdom, PHEV and EV buyers get a £5,000 ($8,000) rebate from the government."

    11 Dec 2012, 11:47 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco -


    These numbers are amazing, especially compared to American CAFE standards, which are in a completely other, lower ballpark:


    "80 mpg (Peugeot 3008 Hybrid4 Active model)"


    "On average, the V60 Hybrid official fuel economy is 148.6 mpg"


    12 Dec 2012, 12:12 AM Reply Like
  • Billa, Don't forget that they are adding in the battery energy for the V60 as it's a plug in. Also they are diesel. And then there are also testing differences US vs Europe to assign mileage ratings.


    Other than that it's apples to apples! :))


    Don't know how they are handling


    1 US gallon = 0.833 Imperial gallons
    12 Dec 2012, 12:22 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco,


    There is so much amazing stuff going on it is hard to keep up with even a small slice of it.


    I hope we get a piece of something soon.
    12 Dec 2012, 12:39 AM Reply Like
  • Billa, For sure on both counts.


    Common Rosewater. Gimme that cert. Joe Pic. needs a new pair of shoes! Only wearing em out of late.
    12 Dec 2012, 08:40 AM Reply Like
  • "The 85hp model driven here comes with a fuel economy figure of 80.7mpg, which compares well with the big two in the car-derived van segment – the Fiesta van’s 85.6mpg and the Corsavan’s 78.3mpg."


    Seem like pretty good mpg numbers to me ...
    12 Dec 2012, 09:00 AM Reply Like
  • Out of interest I thought I'd check this out. Of coarse it all depends on your driving distances.


    EPA Rates Tesla Model S 60 kWh At 95 Miles-Per-Gallon-Equiv...


    "That tops the 89 MPGe the EPA found for the 85-kilowatt hour battery pack."



    "2013 Chevrolet Volt"


    "Miles per Gallon Equivalent" " Electricity 98 Combined"


    Petrol only 37 MPG

    12 Dec 2012, 12:08 AM Reply Like
  • Perhaps we can speed up the response time of the Power cube?
    Laser beaming could make power lines obsolete


    Published on Dec 11, 2012


    Dec. 11 - A company in Washington state is developing wireless technology that delivers electricity via laser beams. The scientists and engineers who run the company, Lasermotive, are using the lasers to power aerial drones but say their technology could also replace conventional power lines to deliver electricity to homes. Jane Ross paid them a visit.
    12 Dec 2012, 09:09 AM Reply Like
  • Turning electricity into laser light and then using photovoltaic cells to turn the laser light back into electricity doesn't strike me as particularly efficient, but I'm sure that Tesla types and other true believers would love the idea of beaming power from a wind farm to charge their cars instead of relying on coal and NG. It would even give non-vampires an ability to use solar cells to charge their EV.
    12 Dec 2012, 09:18 AM Reply Like
  • And better hope a helicopter or aircraft--or bird for that matter--doesn't accidentally fly through one of the high-energy laser beams.
    12 Dec 2012, 09:32 AM Reply Like
  • I remember seeing something like this in the 1960's at a technology fair at the Corpus Christy Naval base. The concept is nothing new, though technology may have caught up with it. Just seems there would be a lot of waste in the conversion on both ends.
    12 Dec 2012, 12:52 PM Reply Like
  • The same technology, but using centimeter microwaves, can be more efficient, I believe. Both the transmitter, using magnetrons, and the receiver, using a "rectifier-antenna". The Solar Power Satellite concept of the 1970s and 80s produced the research.


    I believe solid state microwave components are better these days and could make the "round trip" efficiency somewhat better. I vaguely remember something like 70 percent with microwaves.


    Hovering drones have been powered with microwaves experimentally, many years ago. A bit difficult if you need to talk to or listen to the drones with the many kW of RF energy about :-)
    12 Dec 2012, 07:33 PM Reply Like
  • I got a note from Andy Claypole last night. ePower has apparently finished its benchmark testing with the old AGM battery array and "with a fair wind we'll have the batteries on the truck with a couple of days testing by the end of the week."
    12 Dec 2012, 09:23 AM Reply Like
  • JP,


    Does this mean that they had more delays? Your comment on Dec. 5:
    " I spoke with ePower's CEO yesterday and they'll be testing the PbC equipped tractor this week before kicking off a three week road show to demonstrate the system for prospective customers. "
    12 Dec 2012, 09:31 AM Reply Like
  • I can't imagine why Axion chose not to do a small press release regarding the shipping of 52 batteries to ePower as well as explaining the product and its potential and the market. Then a few weeks later they can do another press release reporting on the tremendous test results coming in from the project. It is not as if Axion is long-in-the-tooth when it comes to press. "What" is the strategy here?


    The more I think about it the more insane this hullabaloo is making me...certainly I should go back to not thinking, I will at least keep my hair if not my money.
    12 Dec 2012, 09:53 AM Reply Like
  • "seriously, wtf is the strategy here."


    ~ when I get frustrated, I always feel better after I drop a few f-bombs.
    12 Dec 2012, 10:04 AM Reply Like
  • My apologies Stefan. Sometimes, I just have no class.
    12 Dec 2012, 10:08 AM Reply Like
  • lol, no I'm serious. I liked your post.
    12 Dec 2012, 10:09 AM Reply Like
  • jveal> Andy didn't offer an explanation and since I woke up after he went to bed I didn't ask. Whenever your'e working on a prototype product a few days of slippage are ordinary course of business matters. In my mind "delays" are measured in months. In any event confirmation that they'll have data in hand by the weekend strikes me as quite positive.
    12 Dec 2012, 10:11 AM Reply Like
  • was probably a little classless on here, but glad I am not the only one that conjures up tawdry displays of emotion when frustration takes hold.
    12 Dec 2012, 10:13 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz, What? Need a little action. Sick of watching the stock trade today! No industry news? Maybe we should change to lithium ion. At least we'll get a little smoke once in awhile. lol
    12 Dec 2012, 10:27 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks for your response John.
    12 Dec 2012, 10:30 AM Reply Like
  • >JP ... OK, I find your last statement; "... finished its benchmark testing with the old AGM battery array and "with a fair wind we'll have the batteries on the truck with a couple of days testing ..." a bit confusing. It reads like the AGM array is itself a new development to physical truck testing & the PbC has never been run in the truck and/or any actual side-by-side working world data exists. That can't be right?
    12 Dec 2012, 10:31 AM Reply Like
  • ePower has generated lots of data on the tractor using AGM batteries and the owner who has been hauling freight with the tractor for several months has generated even more data. All that data, however, is old and not well suited to comparison testing.


    To get as much information as possible from the battery changeover ePower decided to run a series of benchmark trips with the old AGM batteries, swap out the AGM batteries for PbC batteries and then immediately re-run the same series of trips in the same truck under comparable weather conditions.


    The only other way to get comparable performance data would be with two mirror image tractors.
    12 Dec 2012, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • "The only other way to get comparable performance data would be with two mirror image tractors."


    Oh to be rich.


    John, This testing is being done in the KY area? Only asking because I'm somewhat familiar with the terrain having been to T many times over the years. Just trying to get a feel for the test area. This area seems like a good one for the tech.
    12 Dec 2012, 10:51 AM Reply Like
  • >JP ... OK. I figured as much but it just didn't seem to state clearly what I thought was most likely the case. I can relate to comp testing on a budget.
    12 Dec 2012, 10:57 AM Reply Like
  • I believe the testing is being done in the vicinity of their existing facility in Florence KY but I won't have any detail until ePower or Axion says more.
    12 Dec 2012, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • And where there's smoke...there's probably a Fisker Karma going up in flames! lol
    12 Dec 2012, 11:16 AM Reply Like
  • Makes sense that ePower would want to be able to answer two obvious and key questions from prospective customers:


    1) What mpg will I get w/ the new system? (i.e., how much $ will I save?)


    2) Can I use a cheaper/more familar battery? (i.e., can I save on the front-end, too?)


    Well, Mr Fleet, we did some homework for you and found that you could save $x/yr, not only for a couple months like with AGM, but for y # of years with these bio-carbon wonders. Shall we order 5 trucks, or would you prefer the discount you can get with 10?
    12 Dec 2012, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • JP has warned us that everything takes twice as long as one first expects. . . .CEOs, like politicians, like most of us, tend to want to embellish the best case scenario. After all people are impatient and we want them to tell us only good news.


    But nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
    12 Dec 2012, 09:54 AM Reply Like
  • Perhaps Axion will do a press release once the batteries are installed and the truck moves with their help.


    Or perhaps not.
    12 Dec 2012, 02:59 PM Reply Like
  • Electric car company Coda cuts 15 percent of staff

    12 Dec 2012, 11:39 AM Reply Like
  • >iindelco ... CODA has been hurting for a very long time. My only quibble with that is that UQM has been tied to the hip of it by the market and UQM has been reducing its dependency on CODA for more than a year now but does have a lot of shop floor presently going to waste.
    12 Dec 2012, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • DRich, Understood. While I hated the automotive bailout I understand how linked the manufacturing industry is. There may not have been a recovery without it. Things are not like they were years ago when all the big boys were vertically integrated. It's very intertwined now.


    Sorry to hear UQM got caught up in that. Given their specialty it's not a surprise obviously.
    12 Dec 2012, 12:27 PM Reply Like
  • >iindelco ... UQM has quite a bit of the look of Axion. If you judge them by what the market thinks by looking at the stock price, you'd think them a failure. Meanwhile, there is a pretty good solid company lurking there. UQM has debt that Axion doesn't because of that nice shiny factory but the fundamental business looks above average & sound going forward. CODA just looked better than was (as did all EV) several years back and UQM hitched their team to the wagon and still haven't completely broken that yoke. I really like UQM for 2015 & beyond.
    12 Dec 2012, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • DRich, Understood. One thing that would hold me back is that they are mostly automotive I would suspect. Can't stand automotive. (I have not researched them so correct me if I'm wrong for sure.)


    Yeah, yeah, yeah....I'm here. Ugh.


    Automotive. The great destroyer of wealth. Jobs for society, a good thing, but at a price.
    12 Dec 2012, 01:14 PM Reply Like
  • >iindelco ... I, too, hate automotive. I'm interested in UQM for heavy trucking & marine. Two markets they are deep into testing with and even have limited sales for marine applications. Better described as demonstration although marine doesn't really do that the way other transports do. They are also fielding military apps and continue to do basic engineering (their real strength) for a large number of motor manufacturers.
    12 Dec 2012, 01:19 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks DRich, In that case I'll read into it more. Much better future client base. More electrification makes sense across the board in transport.
    12 Dec 2012, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • Drich, I too appreciate your take on UQM.
    12 Dec 2012, 02:12 PM Reply Like
  • Let's also just say that a robust hybrid marine drive allowing for useful periods of quiet (ie electric only) operation would have, uh, certain military applications too...
    12 Dec 2012, 02:50 PM Reply Like
  • Coda never looked good, I've been predicting their failure from day one. I too am sorry that UQM was so heavily involved and hope they can recover.
    13 Dec 2012, 09:27 AM Reply Like
  • Finally the recycling answer for Prius batteries. The Nickle is made into refrigerator doors:
    (Warning, this is feel-good justification article that intentionally confuses lead recycling rates with NiMh and LiOn)


    The Kelly Blue Book Suggested Retail price of a 2002 Prius is $5500. Would a dealer replace a NiMH battery for $2500 + labor into a 12 year old car. I'm thinking they would sell it for parts instead. The average age of cars on US roads is 11 years (pre Sandy). 15 to 20 years is what people expect out of a car these days.
    12 Dec 2012, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • JohnM121,
    Two things. I would assume the KBB price for a 2002 Prius is assuming an old battery pack. With a new battery pack, the value might go up. Second, as was pointed out in the comments, the dealer might not replace the whole battery with a new one, but instead have the defective cells swapped out for new ones if that is the only problem. They could then put it back out for sale with a limited warranty. Until we see a lot of these transactions happening, we really won't know which way they are going to go.
    12 Dec 2012, 04:05 PM Reply Like
  • JohnM and LabTech, This may be of interest.


    Replacing A 2001 Toyota Prius Battery Pack: What It Cost

    12 Dec 2012, 04:15 PM Reply Like
  • Dec. 12, 2012, 9:30 a.m. EST


    Alstom delivers innovative market management software for PJM Interconnection



    "This installation of Alstom's upgraded e-terramarket platform also makes PJM compliant with Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) Order 755, which establishes a performance-based compensation system for sources of electricity that can be brought online quickly to ensure reliability."


    "Alstom technology experts worked alongside the PJM team to ensure our system manages those resources as efficiently as possible, thereby achieving compliance with the requirements of Order 755."


    Alstrom ... big and international player. Wonder which other RTOs are using some form of their software, just how customized it is, and how much might "spill over" to other RTOs?
    12 Dec 2012, 02:50 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks WTB. Did a search on Andrew Ott, the VP at PJM and came across the article linked below which he'd written for IEEE in October. I was surprised by this para since I thought Demand Response is still very much in its infancy:


    "Due to the sustained growth in these alternative resources, over 20 percent of PJM's synchronized reserve is now supplied by demand-response-based resources. From the progress made so far, it appears that alternative technology and demand-response based resources have the capability to supply a substantial portion of operational grid services requirements, which will help the industry manage the continued evolution of the resource supply mix."



    Can anyone shed light on this? Thanks.
    12 Dec 2012, 03:23 PM Reply Like
  • AP,
    Every time I look at the PJM demand response market I have to stop and go back to the primer JP wrote a while back.


    This article portends that the lion's share of energy storage will be profitable " behind the meter". It also shows where the PbC stands cost wise to other technologies.


    I basically read this article by JP and the one you cite as proof that down the road, the 80% of demand response that has not yet been met, can be met with behind the meter systems that employ the PBC. I do realize that not all will be met with the PbC. But 1% of a 100 BILLION DOLLAR MICRO-GRID MARKET IS STILL A LOT.
    12 Dec 2012, 05:39 PM Reply Like
  • Gotta love it. This was listed on a news list as new news about a battery break thru. Notice the date is June 12 2012. Six months gives a whole new meaning to the spin of the story.
    12 Dec 2012, 03:30 PM Reply Like
  • I'ts good to see sellers refusing to go below .29 for most of the day. Hopefully the buyers will soon begin to chase the price upward.
    12 Dec 2012, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • Days with ultra low volume always intrigue me because they suggest that willing sellers are few and far between, and eager sellers are nonexistent.
    12 Dec 2012, 03:35 PM Reply Like
  • Did somebody say "inflection" ?
    12 Dec 2012, 03:43 PM Reply Like
  • I agree, John. I find the situation fascinating, particularly as it starts to form a patter after a while...
    12 Dec 2012, 03:49 PM Reply Like
  • Please stop saying that word.
    12 Dec 2012, 03:52 PM Reply Like
  • Teacher: Stefan, Now use it in a sentence.


    Stefan: WTF is an inflection?


    Teacher: Very good Stefan?


    12 Dec 2012, 03:57 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan :-)
    12 Dec 2012, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • Day after day after day for at least four months ATDF has been a big, but not huge, seller. Every so often they take the day off. Like today, in which I have posted several times that the price will then often rise a penny or two. Since buying interest was also meager, the rise was slightly < a penny this time.


    Hope they continue to stay away.
    12 Dec 2012, 04:14 PM Reply Like
  • As far as my memory goes, every time ATDF and others have taken a day off, it was on a Friday. Today is a Weds with no particular holiday.


    Everyday for the past week or two there has been a morning dump of 50k or so shares. Yesterday's morning dump was 15k or so.


    Consider me cautiously optimistic that another big seller is now gone.
    12 Dec 2012, 04:46 PM Reply Like
  • Ahem. In Wisconsin (12/12/12) by official declaration by the State of Wisconsin today is Aaron Rodger's day. For those unaware, he is the QB of the Packers.


    Didn't believe much in the Mayan end of days thing but after this a reboot or refresh may be welcomed.
    12 Dec 2012, 05:19 PM Reply Like
  • LMAO.
    12 Dec 2012, 06:01 PM Reply Like
  • Yes, but what does it say about "buyers"? It goes back to my thoughts that Axionistas provide much of the support down here in the .20s but their bellies are largely full.


    I sure hope I'm wrong about that idea; but Axionistas don't seem to like to pay up (myself included). A few here have said they'll buy on confirmation of an uptrend. I however have never been able to spot those things within 25% of the turn. Amazingly we ran up 50% off of the .20 mark but not many saw that as a long term reversal from our woes (although it may be).
    12 Dec 2012, 07:41 PM Reply Like
  • >bazooooka ... My tell will be when the stock starts trading in actual pennies or, pray tell, larger denominations on forward vision of continuing revenues. That will not be that hard to spot. This daily battle over ten-thousands of a dollar is horse-hockey with no meaningful economic meaning to me. That 50% rise (and associated volume) you sight doesn't pay for my time to read your comment let alone think I could've made meaningful money by being lucky enough to tic both ends.
    12 Dec 2012, 07:55 PM Reply Like
  • I agree that flipping for 1/4 pennies seems trivial. However, most stocks that have bounced 50% off their lows typically have reversed their prevailing trend. It is my hope that those with dry powder see it that way and start building meaningful positions and the volume will be our tell. I'd love to see Million share days and incremental climbs lasting weeks/months.
    13 Dec 2012, 10:02 AM Reply Like
  • MrHolty,
    So did you have to walk around with a big belt on all day yesterday and wave your hands over it every time you met someone? ;-)
    13 Dec 2012, 10:41 AM Reply Like
  • Looks like another low volume day. It won't take a million shares to push this bad boy up.
    13 Dec 2012, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • No. To play with people I just told them that Lynn Dickey was my favorite Packer too. Lots of strange looks and I assume googling after I left.
    13 Dec 2012, 02:37 PM Reply Like
  • Well, the Lynn Dickey comment makes sense. After all, he was a great QB when playing with a migraine headache. Unfortunately, he didn't always play with a migraine headache. ;-)
    13 Dec 2012, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • Bazooooka: "Yes, but what does it say about "buyers"?


    Being Alt-everything is so fashionable these days, I offer alt-buyers' thesis.


    Those sitting on potential 5-10 (or more?) baggers, with pockets bulging with AXPW and (possibly) bereft of dry powder, feel no need to "pay up". They feel comfy waiting for those hoping for 2-3 baggers to come in, as they assuredly will.


    The joy seen on $0.03 moves seen heretofore will pale in comparison when the late-comers join the party. 'Course, if we're smart we'll either keep our traps shut and/or complain it *still* hasn't reached any reasonable and rational targets. ;-))


    15 Dec 2012, 02:05 PM Reply Like
  • I can hear you now, whining about the rock bottom price of $4.50
    15 Dec 2012, 02:16 PM Reply Like
  • In my humble opinion, I believe that most if not all who follow AXPW would love to whine at a rock bottom price of $45. I know at that price I and every member of my family would be on easy street for the rest of their carefree lives.
    15 Dec 2012, 05:41 PM Reply Like
  • >JP ... I'm hoping to see the IPO price someday.
    15 Dec 2012, 06:06 PM Reply Like
  • There wasn't really an IPO. In 2003 I owned a squeaky clean public shell that I'd bought from Clark Hunt and I was looking for an acquisition candidate. In December of 2003 I did a reverse merger transaction between my shell and Axion. As part of the deal I agreed to stay on as legal counsel for six to nine months while we got the SEC reporting buttoned down and handed Axion off to another law firm. While there wasn't an IPO price, I'd be delighted to see the price return to its 200-day VWMA of $4.78 in December 2004.
    16 Dec 2012, 01:12 AM Reply Like
  • John,


    I am not exactly sure how to do the math, but if we got a substantial piece of SS, and particularly if we became the go-to solution for SS, wouldn't AXPW hit $10 easily and probably much more?
    16 Dec 2012, 02:23 AM Reply Like
  • When I did the reverse merger with Axion in December 2003 I told my wife that it was the first company I'd represented that had an honest shot at a billion dollar market capitalization, which would imply a stock price in the $10 range if everything went well. While stop-start is a big market, it may well prove to be a low margin market because automakers are so very good at squeezing suppliers. As a result I prefer applications like rail, hybrid trucks, APUs and stationary better because the buyers are doing a cost-benefit analysis instead of focusing solely on cost.


    When we started down the road of developing the PbC we weren't entirely sure what the primary market would be, but we were convinced that there would be a market. Over the last few years it's become increasingly obvious that my initial expectations of the potential market were far too low. If things continue to come together as they have over the last couple years, I think my initial expectation of Axion's potential market cap could prove to be quite pessimistic because I can identify several market niches that would justify a billion dollar market cap. Stop-start is only one of them.


    I've gotten spoiled over the years and tend to view any investment where I don't get a 10 bagger as a failure. I don't think Axion will be a failure for me, even though my average cost is in the $1.25 range.
    16 Dec 2012, 02:35 AM Reply Like
  • I just hope I do not sell too soon.
    16 Dec 2012, 02:20 PM Reply Like
  • Back in the early 90s I took a multi-million dollar hit on a stock that I stayed with too long. After the bloodletting was over, I had a meeting with my broker who quipped "All the houses in Tanglewood (George Bush Senior's neighborhood) are owned by people who sold too early." There's never any shame in taking a little off the table when the market wants more supply and you want more cash. The key is doing it slowly and artfully enough that you don't push more stock into the market than the market wants to digest.
    16 Dec 2012, 02:28 PM Reply Like
  • A little Bernard Baruch for you:



    . . . and



    I was thinking, though, about a friend of mine who sold ISRG at 10, which of course is in the 530's these days.
    16 Dec 2012, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • Am I seeeing this right down here? Seeking Alpha works in a quirky fashion in Honduras. Took me about two hours of worming around to get from some bare bones web page to this normal, familiar one, where I can track comments, and leave one.


    Volume only 31,900 so far today? About 1/10th the normal volume, and IIRC, less than 1/10th of yesterday's volume?


    That's quirky, too.


    12 Dec 2012, 03:40 PM Reply Like
  • Yep, Maya. With so many affluent guys off celebrating armageddon there's nobody around to drive volume!


    Hope you're having a blast!!
    12 Dec 2012, 03:44 PM Reply Like
  • LMAO, iindelco. Blasts have been going off almost all day, everyday, in the form of fireworks, except today, as it's raining.


    The odd, Catch 22 part of all of this is that if the world ends, then the Maya get blamed, and if it doesn't, then they get blamed, too.


    What I would like is for all the charlatans and agents of artifice who've made money off of this BS ending of the world...that their world would end, or better, to live their remaining days in some ethereal purgatory...kind of like our Axion shares!


    Politics are crazy down here. I'm still not sure what's going to happen. The government says something is going to happen, but it's a secret. Huh?


    Honduras' top musician is going to be playing. No he's not. A light show is going to happen at the ruins. Then I hear that's not happening, either. A gigantic video screen is going to be brought to the Parque de Central. But nobody knows what's going to be shown on it. Who told you that? another asks.


    Up in Guatemala, there were rumors that Elton John, U2, and The Rolling Stones were going to play at Tikal, the largest of all Maya sites. But...that was canceled, because the locals said loud music had nothing to do with the 12/21/12 event. Hello? Does anyone want to make some $?


    It's all really quite funny.


    All I know is that have a nice itinerary developing for those coming to Copan.
    12 Dec 2012, 04:15 PM Reply Like
  • Ahh Maya, All the gaming that goes on in countries to get individual compensation. But alas, organized by the department of chaos. (Some information held off for security reasons as well.) Hey, It's different and one of the reasons you're there enjoying it.


    Since you've been so many times I trust you'll put an itinerary together that more than satisfies.


    Enjoy your eclectic entropy!
    12 Dec 2012, 04:39 PM Reply Like
  • Iindelco: "With so many affluent guys off celebrating"


    Can't resist ...


    With so much eating, drinking and merry-making, are you sure you didn't mean "With so many effluent guys off celebrating"? ;-))


    CPST can run on that stuff (low-sulphur content), solving two problems at once.


    Sorry for the pun - just finished a bout of *nasty* flu at the end of my trip and I was severely violating EPA standards in multiple ways through multiple channels for neigh-on a week. :-((


    15 Dec 2012, 02:11 PM Reply Like
  • I shoulda brought a case of Cottonelle down here. TP's like using 80 grit sand paper. But holding on to Axion through the Valley of Death has given me callusses back there. ;-)


    WB, HTL!
    15 Dec 2012, 04:30 PM Reply Like
  • Maya: You shoulda' charted Tim to drive his rig w/flatbed full of the stuff down there - coulda' made a killing selling it I bet.


    Hope y'all are taking lots of pics to post when you get back. Be great to see all the smiling faces together!


    15 Dec 2012, 04:39 PM Reply Like
  • Welcome back, HTL. Sorry to hear of your detour through fluland and certainly hope it is entirely in the rear view mirror.
    15 Dec 2012, 05:31 PM Reply Like
  • "rear" view mirror?


    Pun intended? :-))


    That's one view I wouldn't want to have had, I'll tell ya'!


    TMI (Too Much Information)?


    15 Dec 2012, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • HTL, LOL. Very fitting on the effluent piece.


    I well remember my first round of "Montezuma's Revenge" many years ago flying back from Mexico. The first thing I remember is that even I didn't want to be in the bathroom with myself even though we joined each other constantly. The second thing I thought about and unfortunately will always remember is that about 10 poor Germans I worked with at great length for a couple years at the time got to enjoy the same experience flying back to Germany. The stories were a nightmare.


    No matter how bad you think you have it...............


    Since it's the season. "God bless us every one."


    PS My intended point in this post was to say, if you get what we fear when it come to travel and this level of bugs, there is no soft TP.
    16 Dec 2012, 06:31 PM Reply Like
  • Y'all are a bunch of babies. Or so I have been told by my very pregnant wife. And Beautiful (hi honey!)


    I just read an article that my wife handed me a few days ago about how men are bigger wimps than women when we are sick. Turns out that mean add stress to their sickness as they fear that this sickness may impact their ability to provide for their family/spouse/etc. However men are less fearful dying while helping others etc. Looks like there are some evolutionary factors in there.


    I've mentioned on here that I used to work for an airline in my younger years. Working for the airline you get cheap travel but you are also on standby and are at the mercy of paying customers.


    One flight returning from Hawaii to Houston an elderly gentlemen travelling alone fell asleep and after missing breakfast and not awaking for the young woman next to him to get out to the bathroom a FA was called and quietly determined that he was dead. As a standby traveller I spent the last two hours of my flight next to a dead man. Well, the conversation was great...


    The other time was on a flight from Berlin. Continental had just started flying Newark NJ - Berlin on a 757 that summer. A 757 is much cheaper to operate than a normal transatlantic widebody so the flight was profitable even in the offseason. We went to Berlin in December to experience the German Christmas Festivals and too be honest it was the only flight that had seats available. Well, Newark to Berlin was the max range of the A/C and in the winter the winds are stronger so the flight was rangebound and we had to land in NE Canada in Moncton. All passengers stayed on the plane while refueling occured but the long flight + it was actually full meant a lot of going to the bathroom. the 757 bathrooms were not equipped for this and yet the tanks were not emptied in Moncton even though they were overflowing before we landed there. My wife and I were moved from our seats to sit in the last row near the toilet as stuff came out of the bathroom and liquids proceeded to slide out under the door and absorb into the carpet at our feet. Ugh, the idea of it was worse than the smell as the blue deoderant did a decent job.
    17 Dec 2012, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • "As a standby traveler I spent the last two hours of my flight next to a dead man."


    Mrholty, I can think of at least one occasion where I would have considered you lucky. :(
    17 Dec 2012, 12:30 PM Reply Like
  • I've always admired extreme road warrior types.
    17 Dec 2012, 12:45 PM Reply Like
  • John, Some people love it and can maintain their productivity based on their occupation. Myself, no thanks. Most of my travels were always added tasks. Thus when you returned everything was waiting with less time to accomplish the tasks. But there are 24 hours in a day.
    17 Dec 2012, 01:23 PM Reply Like
  • Off-site work means you see the airport when you land, the road to town, the job site, your hotel room, the road to the airport, and the airport when you leave.


    Work travel is supposed to be so glamorous.


    Holing up in the hotel is so boring you stay at the job site for 12 hours so you have something to do.
    17 Dec 2012, 03:41 PM Reply Like
  • Billa, Yep. My wife used to say, "You'