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  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2097) | Send Message
     
    Is it possible? Uno!!
    23 Dec 2012, 08:37 AM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    bronze...

     

    geez... I used to be good at this
    23 Dec 2012, 09:01 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (783) | Send Message
     
    Domingo: Dos!!
    23 Dec 2012, 08:47 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    Also ran ...
    23 Dec 2012, 09:41 AM Reply Like
  • Bylo-
    , contributor
    Comments (389) | Send Message
     
    The closest I've ever been!
    23 Dec 2012, 11:14 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (783) | Send Message
     
    Sorry, Please let me repeat this comment:

     

    Returning to EXIDE:

     

    It has a great power of growth, but does not give confidence to invest by the following:

     

    -.High level of indebtedness.
    -.Three consecutive quarters in loss.
    -.Worst: Mismanagement, did not understand in due moment the JV with Axion Power signed in 2009 and the future that would represent have a good relationship with AXION.

     

    That is my opinion-Carlos

     

    Note:
    "Initially", think that one of the two (JCI-EXIDE) will win the representation of AXION POWER PbC Tech. for North America and the other will be looking to the sky.
    To Europe: BMW will decide.
    23 Dec 2012, 12:10 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    Don't forget East Penn.

     

    Of note:

     

    East Penn Announces Expansion of Duracell Battery Products
    September 25, 2012

     

    |http://bit.ly/Ti4QVI

     

    East Penn Announces Expansion of Intimidator AGM Battery Line

     

    didn't spot a date on this article, but it does talk about AGM.

     

    http://bit.ly/TgRrAA

     

    Originally Published: 10/10/2012:

     

    East Penn plans multimillion-dollar manufacturing plant

     

    If the proposed manufacturing facility is approved, the battery maker expects to create more than 300 jobs when it reaches capacity sometime in 2015 or later.

     

    http://bit.ly/SMYQVt

     

    Daniel R. Langdon, president of East Penn, said, "It will be a multifaceted facility and flexible enough to be able to support growth in all segments of lead acid batteries."

     

    Could be good or bad news ... depending on who Axion's current major source of income is contracted for. The potential loss of that contract is a risk we almost never talk about, but as they say in comedy ... timing is everything. Nothing is guaranteed, especially in business.

     

    But let's think positive and hope (I know, not an investment strategy) they want to expand in (among other things) a JV producing batteries for BMW's US production.
    23 Dec 2012, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    I suspect that loss of the toll contract around 2015 would not be a material adverse event by then - we should have lots of irons that progressed out of the fire.

     

    If it is a MAE, we are likely lost anyway.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    23 Dec 2012, 01:20 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    I think if we're still dependent on the toll contract for fixed cost thinning in the plant in 2015 none of us is going to be very happy anyway. Without biz or major relationships by then the runway will have run out I'm afraid. The toll contract has been a God sent for covering the facility and people and allowing PbC development personnel access to a real facility. But it's not why any of us is here. In this I agree with HTL. JMO.
    23 Dec 2012, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    'Tis the season: (keep a firm grip on your wallet!)

     

    Dec 20, 2012 - 11:17AM PT
    Lux’s 10 emerging tech companies to watch in 2013 (they’re mostly energy tech)

     

    BY Katie Fehrenbacher

     

    http://bit.ly/YBZhWY

     

    Dec 19, 2012 - 11:59AM PT
    The 10 best and worst things to happen to cleantech in 2012

     

    BY Katie Fehrenbacher

     

    http://bit.ly/TOpSv9
    23 Dec 2012, 01:02 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    2013 NAATBatt Annual Meeting and Symposium

     

    Measurement, Management & Control
    of Advanced Battery Systems

     

    http://conta.cc/YCbBX8

     

    (the pretty colors are links ... including to the agenda)

     

    ZBB has just joined this group and is appearing

     

    http://bit.ly/TODh6o

     

    Marketwire - Dec 20, 2012) - ZBB Energy Corporation (NYSE MKT: ZBB), a leading developer of intelligent power and energy management technologies, today announced that the Company is joining the National Alliance for Advanced Technology Batteries (NAATBatt), http://www.naatbatt.org. At the NAATBatt Annual Conference and Symposium, to be held January 16-18, 2013 in Austin, Texas, ZBB Energy will be sharing a featured presentation titled "Ensuring Reliable Power in Unreliable Environments," highlighting the enabling capabilities of ZBB's comprehensive power control and energy storage technologies.
    23 Dec 2012, 02:16 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    A little Renault and Better Place news. Hadn't seen much on Better Place since the announcement of the new CEO.

     

    BTW, I think that's not a bad lookin ride but then I prefer understatement as I drive em so long.

     

    Renault Australia Puts Fluence Z.E. Launch on Hold

     

    http://bit.ly/UZU0Df
    23 Dec 2012, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7603) | Send Message
     
    I've been pointing out the flaws in BP for a while.
    http://bit.ly/VqNxze
    24 Dec 2012, 09:55 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    Just a headline and initial read but the message is clear. And Bosch isn't a publicly traded company so they can think longer term.

     

    Bosch has no plans to build German battery plant -report

     

    http://bit.ly/UZV3mA
    23 Dec 2012, 03:45 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    Bosch had it's time in the barrel already. It was like the tomcat who hooked up with a girl skunk - everything they wanted and more than they could stand.
    23 Dec 2012, 03:50 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    John, Understood. Once bitten.....
    23 Dec 2012, 03:51 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    ... or once skunked?
    23 Dec 2012, 03:53 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    A picture of their current long tern "vision" in the pure EV space.

     

    http://bit.ly/UZWaTs
    23 Dec 2012, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    Note the word "German" ... but what about elsewhere?

     

    The Reuters version (very short):

     

    http://reut.rs/YH3t7L

     

    Not sure how different this is .. the original was "premium content" that I didn't have access to (and neither did Google News, which I sometimes get lucky with)

     

    But note this (slightly earlier) article:

     

    Bosch dissolves Samsung JV, establishes battery systems unit
    DECEMBER 14, 2012

     

    http://bit.ly/TTmr6r

     

    The German automotive supplier said Robert Bosch Battery Systems, which includes the former SB LiMotive joint venture as well as Michigan-based Cobasys LLC, will focus on building complete battery packs for electric vehicles.

     

    The first EV with a Bosch battery pack is the Fiat 500e, which was unveiled at the Los Angeles auto show last month.
    24 Dec 2012, 09:57 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4426) | Send Message
     
    >wtblanchard ... Cobasys ... now there is a name I haven't heard in a very long time. This is a remnant that Energy Conversion Devices and Chevron established. I really didn't think they still existed but apparently do as a shadow of their former self.

     

    http://bit.ly/tszKV1

     

    So Bosch is going to make NiMH battery packs. Interesting.
    24 Dec 2012, 10:16 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    Some thoughts on the split 12/24 VDC automotive platform architecture for those interested. Some player mentions and general timing prespective N/A vs Europe.

     

    New Electrical Circuitry Designed to Reduce Emissions

     

    http://bit.ly/TOUvjS
    23 Dec 2012, 03:55 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: I'm guessing that the PbC would need to be a bigger form-factor to accommodate 48V due to some constraints on how thin the various electrode assemblies can be and still withstand the thermal and mechanical stresses that could be expected?

     

    And expense would be up a bit as more solders would be needed, etc.

     

    OTOH, 3-7 years is a lot of time for experience and economies curves JP wrote about to kick in - might be the PbC would have a role in the scenario presented?

     

    But they only talk about mild hybrids as first blush - we aren't really targeting that ATM, IIRC. So we might have more time until it (48V) filters down to our target market.

     

    All considered, I can't see any show stoppers for now.

     

    Random thoughts ...
    HardToLove
    23 Dec 2012, 05:49 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    HTL, I think we could talk better about it if we knew what kind of energy over what time frame (duty cycle) the automakers were looking to push in both directions. I bet it fits. Maybe we are taking about 3 smaller form factor 16 VDC batteries in a package. Perhaps this would have worked better if they stayed with the older 42VDC target which might be more in the sweet spot for 3-16V Pbc's?

     

    So hard to talk about the possibilities without that great data we get from JP. Maybe once the specs are translated and more fully shared. It would be nice to get the initial translation of the specs.

     

    ""In God we trust; all others must bring data."
    W. Edwards Deming
    23 Dec 2012, 06:28 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    I think you could stay with a "normal" sized battery. The advantage of a higher voltage is the voltage range in which it operates allowing use of the sweet spot of the PbC...
    24 Dec 2012, 01:46 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    It's my understanding that the Ultrabattery tests in the modified Honda Insight and Civic used motorcycle batteries instead of the much larger automotive batteries. The smaller format batteries took the voltage up while controlling the weight. The nice thing about lead-acid cells is they have the same voltage regardless of cell size so you size the entire battery for energy and break it down into the number of cells required for the desired voltage.
    24 Dec 2012, 01:54 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    Tim and John, John is clarifying my point exactly. 3 larger format batteries might be too large for the application. We'd need to get application data to see over what range we could cycle the PbC bank to optimize the mass/volume requirements of the battery bank to support the load requirements.
    24 Dec 2012, 04:05 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    iidelco, "normal" sized as in form factor not voltage...
    24 Dec 2012, 05:16 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Tim. Got ya! :)
    24 Dec 2012, 05:19 AM Reply Like
  • rgholbrook
    , contributor
    Comments (117) | Send Message
     
    Sunday reading:

     

    Thought this a great companion quote for "experience is something you have 5 minutes after you need it" on the importance of not wasting time repeating other's mistakes: "Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils." -Louis Hector Berlioz http://bit.ly/VoklZE.

     

    Is there a pool for when Mr. Petersen hits 20,000 comments? (Mr. Petersen excluded, sorry)

     

    At this writing it is already Xmas eve for some commentators, so thanks for another year of educational and entertaining fellowship and best wishes for next year, trolls included.
    23 Dec 2012, 06:22 PM Reply Like
  • InsuranceDude
    , contributor
    Comments (45) | Send Message
     
    I started digging some more on Axion on Friday. I started with ePower. Primitive website, no phone number. Bing led me to some articles about a $500,000 grant from the state of Nebraska to set up shop in LaVista. Lots of press, but nothing ever came of it. I can't even find if they took the money or not. Website says they are in Kentucky now. I did find a former employee to speak with, but there was no current useful info. Good guys, good idea, blah blah blah. I don't see much here but a handful of guys with a good idea, but far from anything productive in the near term. I won't hang any hopes for this one.

     

    I then went to Exide. I spoke with an executive. It was a very guarded conversation. The most I could get was that there are no burned bridges, the technology works great in specific applications, it does take and give a charge quickly, and otherwise I got the sense that it had been some time since they had thought of Axion.

     

    My goal is to find someone who is independent of Axion, Rosewater, Peterson, etc who will say to me that "yes we have tested these batteries, used them, they rock, we love them......" Next stop for me is Norfolk Southern. Stay tuned.
    23 Dec 2012, 10:38 PM Reply Like
  • grobertson1
    , contributor
    Comments (52) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, I appreciate what you have done and the information you offer, appreciate hearing if anything comes of Norfolk Southern call.

     

    I never put much hope in epower, if they put together 10 trucks next year I think that would be great. Not picking on the epower company, just saying it seems to be a few independent contractors agreeing to do testing or experiment on their own. I hope for revenue, but see no profit here, nothing that would come close to thwarting additional financing and dilution.

     

    Your report on Exide confirmed my thoughts as well " the technology works great in specific applications, it does take and give a charge quickly" I think we all agree to that

     

    but... " I got the sense that it had been some time since they had thought of Axion. "

     

    I had that same thought. JCI, Exide, the US Military,Norfolk Southern, they know the performance. JCI, Exide, US Military none have made a move for Axion, Exide and US Military have walked away from Axion, and now the delay at Norfolk where an April order was reported but no requested delivery; are they just not all that interested. Both Exide and US Miltary have tested or worked with Axion for at least some point of time. The concern over the Norfolk Southern order grows daily.

     

    The concern is that it appears it is a very interesting battery, but whether it is a specific energy fail, or perhaps an inability to produce at scale, perhaps it is vulnerable to vibration, whatever it is, I am concerned that interest wanes.
    24 Dec 2012, 12:23 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4426) | Send Message
     
    Do we really need "Concern Trolls" ... I mean really. A guy that claims to have bought ... what (?) ... 200k share is just now starting to questioning the validity of Axion's potential customer base. Follow that with an "OhMy" so concerned post doubting the worth & worthyness of Axion's product.

     

    I'm sure both these wonderful contributors are just trying to help us all by continually point out the folly of our ways. I really do appreciate their effort to protect me from myself. Bless Their Hearts.

     

    Merry Christmas to All
    24 Dec 2012, 01:57 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    This is absolutely delightful.

     

    For a couple years now I've been trying to figure out who would be interested enough in Axion to pay an obviously intelligent professional writer to disrupt conversations on the Brand X message board, deliberately misconstrue every positive development and try to infiltrate more tightly moderated forums like Seeking Alpha.

     

    Now I think we know. Our resident troll has admitted that he has direct telephone access to an Exide executive on the weekend before Christmas.

     

    How rich is that?

     

    I've long believed that Exide played an underhanded power game in 2009 where it encumbered the PbC technology with a development partnership and then did everything in its power to force Axion over the cliff believing that it would be the only likely bidder for the PbC technology. The gambit failed spectacularly when Axion closed its 2009 offering and Exide found itself on the outside looking in as its biggest OEM customer publicly embraced the PbC technology at the ELBC in Istanbul.

     

    It has never made sense to me that the Taylors or a market participant would go to all that trouble and expense to make Axion's life miserable. But I can certainly see how Exide might be willing to spend some serious money in an attempt to recover the huge opportunity they had in early 2009 and then lost through sheer greed and arrogance.

     

    The Exide connection to the Axion trolls makes a lot of sense in a perverse sort of way. It would also make sense for JCI to engage in that kind of conduct and try to cast the blame on Exide.

     

    In either case I think we finally have an explanation. Our dual identity troll is being paid by a competitor who's scared half to death of the PbC.

     

    Many thanks for the Christmas gift of a mystery finally solved.
    24 Dec 2012, 02:16 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4426) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... OR there is a small outside chance the guy is lying, but I did find that interesting.
    24 Dec 2012, 02:22 AM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2350) | Send Message
     
    It is logical that Xide (or JCI) might not embrace Axion willingly; good thing they are the tail and not the head in this oem game.

     

    However, the recent postings suggest to me that someone is especially trying to shake our AXPW tree to affect the next offering.

     

    They're not doing that great of a job though; the idea that other unnamed company brass would give a random cold caller any info on Axion is borderline absurd.
    24 Dec 2012, 02:31 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    When I read the comment about starting to do DD on the Friday just before Christmas and hearing "I spoke with an Exide Exec. and psst he said",well, I just couldn't stop laughing. I waited to allow others to chime in first because I wanted to afford everyone the same laughs I was afforded.

     

    Then, not only does this come out of the mouth of the great ID, but OMY-grobertson1 stops by in support of ID's great effort for finding an Exec. from Exide who's got the inside scoop. I mean can this get any more hilarious.

     

    Merry Christmas everyone. You've had your Ha Ha Ha now its time for some Ho Ho Ho.

     

    PS John, Your thoughts do make sense. And that makes it even more hilarious. I mean OMG, Can this get any better? :))
    24 Dec 2012, 03:55 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    I view the recent actions of both Exide and JCI as frank public admissions of weakness. If either or both of them was worried enough three years ago to pay for professional trolls to try and beat Axion down, it would the most damning admission of weakness I can imagine.

     

    I heard several snarky comments at the ELBC including one competitor who said "but then it's not really a battery is it?" and another who trotted out the energy density and voltage drop issues as if they were relevant and insurmountable problems.

     

    The industry already understands that the PbC is a game changer that will hold everybody's feet to the fire. The market doesn't understand yet, but it will. And when it does the result will be epic.
    24 Dec 2012, 04:14 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    "I heard several snarky comments at the ELBC including one competitor who said "but then it's not really a battery is it?" and another who trotted out the energy density and voltage drop issues as if they were relevant and insurmountable problems."

     

    You know, I never really thought an Axion type attack concept could really happen. I mean possible sure but probable. I really couldn't fathom it. Now I'm starting to think that this stuff really has more than just some long odds chance of being real. What I'd seen in the past from the OMY entity is really something. But these latest posts just pushed it into a whole new level for me. I'm really kind of in shock.

     

    I remember a "similar (underhanded)" far lesser event when the auto companies started using field warranty data as part of their sourcing decision process. Some execs from a top 20 automotive component company (They acquired an entity I worked for.) discussed in a meeting how they would damage components from other competing suppliers on their vehicles and take them back to the dealer to effect the warranty data. Since the components we are talking about had very low ppm numbers over the warranty time frame a few added returns would make a significant difference if it was done over a short period.

     

    My only point in mentioning this is that these types of games are not impossible. But I'm still surprised by the level this has gotten to. It appears not just to be the odd person posting I once thought it to be.
    24 Dec 2012, 04:54 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    It's always been a puzzlement to me because I knew the Taylors were not sophisticated enough to play that game or rich enough to sustain it. I also knew there wasn't enough short-term opportunity involved for a market participant to play that kind of game. That left me with two plausible explanations.

     

    First, I saw a distinct possibility that one or more of the lithium-ion battery producers was tired of my criticism and was financing a back-channel attack on Axion to try and shut me up. As the likely suspects fell one by one that plausible explanation got less and less plausible and with the failure of A123 became an impossibility.

     

    Second, I saw a remote possibility that one or more lead-acid manufacturers was concerned that the PbC was a well protected proprietary technology, as opposed to a simple enhancement like carbon paste additives that anybody could use.

     

    "When you have eliminated the impossible , whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" – Sherlock Holmes
    24 Dec 2012, 07:00 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    I.D. The question becomes, for me, why you start this deep DD now *after* investing in ~99.3K @ $0.28 per this post.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    Yes I realize it's peanuts for you, but still $27,805.96 + fees that could be placed in other vehicles that have less risk and a potential lower opportunity cost would seem to have been a better move, for one as astute as you seem to be, until you had done the DD that you seem to have now started.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Dec 2012, 08:44 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    "April order was reported but no requested delivery"

     

    They increased the order size.

     

    That says way more than an unknown delivery date, which would be subject to internal scheduling requirements.

     

    As to hearing from NS, if they privately give out any information to anyone here or anywhere I would be highly suspicious of the claim, based on their behavior in the past.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    24 Dec 2012, 08:55 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1505) | Send Message
     
    My conspiracy theory/thought for the day is that NS has put the batteries in another locomotive and the NS999 is a decoy to throw off all watchful eyes. I'm not really serious about this.
    24 Dec 2012, 09:11 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    "As to hearing from NS, if they privately give out any information to anyone here or anywhere I would be highly suspicious of the claim, based on their behavior in the past."

     

    :-) Why would NSC do anything more than point the questioner toward the company's 2012 Sustainability Report? And, how is it that such astute pursuers of dd are not already aware of 2012 Sustainability Report contents which have been discussed on multiple APCs?
    24 Dec 2012, 09:15 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13440) | Send Message
     
    LOL, trolls don't do "human" DD. Troll DD is always backwards. If we just invert everything they say, we can arrive at some interesting (perhaps even revealing, as JP and others are pointing out) results...

     

    I am inherently paranoid, and therefore open to such conspiracy theories, but this is perhaps the most solid such I have seen in several years.

     

    I'm adding a symbolic 1000 shares today despite being grossly overweight this allocation in my portfolio - despite the coming round of funding - and despite the fact that this will not lower my average share price appreciably.

     

    I'm just tired of the manipulation, and this is one thing I can do to say: "I am not intimidated".
    24 Dec 2012, 09:41 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    I kind of feel like I have some small insight into how people in the military felt years ago when they finally stood up and stated that they had seen an unidentified flying object. It's not normal and leans toward the bizarre, It's not something black and white where you can hold it up and say "Here" and I know it's something that can't be solved (we'll never know for sure). But to a large extent it fits. However, irrespective of the probability, I do feel like I'm trying to say I saw a unicorn. Way outside of my comfort zone.

     

    Oh well, It's how I feel (This OMY theory) but I'm speaking without solid data for sure. Technical people prefer building foundations with good solid validated stuff.

     

    My first:

     

    http://bit.ly/Zvbvlt
    24 Dec 2012, 10:09 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    "irrespective of the probability, I do feel like I'm trying to say I saw a unicorn. Way outside of my comfort zone."

     

    :-) Well there it is. From the mouth of a "hoss." Confirming support for something my 2 1/2 year old granddaughter has been telling people for months -- hosses and unicorns can't be friends.
    24 Dec 2012, 10:22 AM Reply Like
  • rupers
    , contributor
    Comments (64) | Send Message
     
    Grobertson1

     

    Question for you: What is your position in AXPW? Are you long? Sizeable amount? If no holdings, then wtf, over -- why are you so critical about AXPW if you have no skin in the game?

     

    If you are long, with a sizeable holding, and are skeptically concerned, then state it loud and clear.

     

    At least with Insurance Dude, he's acknowledged about a 200 thousand share holding (assuming that's true, and I don't have reason to disbelieve him). Frankly, I think Insurance Dude is the real deal, and many on this board are unfairly castigating him, and I don't like censorship on what appears, at face value, to be legitimate info or questions posted by him.

     

    As for you, though, I don't know what your position or skin in the game is. Until you make it unequivocally clear what your position is, any postings you make are prima facie suspect.
    24 Dec 2012, 10:30 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1415) | Send Message
     
    You spoke with an executive at Exide. Really!!

     

    You just called Exide, spoke with the switchboard, the switchboard put you through to an executive, and that random person with real information about the relationship between Exide and Axion answered the phone and then spoke to you about that relationship.

     

    And, you actually expect me to believe you. My pre-teen has more sense than you when it comes to making up stories.
    24 Dec 2012, 10:45 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1415) | Send Message
     
    G1-And you believed IDude????
    24 Dec 2012, 10:46 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1505) | Send Message
     
    Idude,
    You don't have to bother speaking with NS as I just personally spoke with all the following people:

     

    Board of Directors of Norfolk Southern

     

    G. L. Baliles
    T. D. Bell, Jr.
    E. B. Bowles
    R. A. Bradway
    W. G. Bush
    D. A. Carp
    A. D. Correll
    K. N. Horn
    B. M. Joyce
    S. F. Leer
    M. D. Lockhart
    C. W. Moorman
    J. P. Reason

     

    Without exception, they assured me that everything is going well with the NS999 except there has been a slight time delay, and everyone on the board agrees that PbC is the silver bullet for all NS applications.

     

    Merry Christmas

     

    P.S. They were absolutely delighted to speak with me.
    24 Dec 2012, 11:12 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    Metro, Thanks for sharing that. You've saved me a few quarters at the pay phone booth. Well, Now I've got the inside scoop from ePower, Exide and NSC.

     

    If you'd like for me to cover any bases in our group DD I can call Stephan Chu this week and see what the DOE is going to be sponsoring in the sector over the next few years.
    24 Dec 2012, 11:35 AM Reply Like
  • InsuranceDude
    , contributor
    Comments (45) | Send Message
     
    The switchboard at Exide in Georgia is automated. You are given the option to enter the last name of whoever you want to contact. I did that. It rang. He answered. He is not from this country. JP will know exactly who I mean.
    24 Dec 2012, 11:35 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1505) | Send Message
     
    I'll bet that switchboard will be gone by the first of the year.
    24 Dec 2012, 01:42 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1414) | Send Message
     
    I'm not saying I believe the calls were made, but I don't find them to be impossible. I have found some company executives amenable to calls, though I haven't gotten anything useful out of them. What ID reported sounds like a possible response.

     

    I personally am suspecting a potential investor or market maker manipulation, rather than rivals in the battery industry. One, the risk of foul play and sophistication needed. Second, the unusual trading activity is not someone on his laptop can do.
    25 Dec 2012, 01:18 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1505) | Send Message
     
    Ranma,
    Okay, you caught me. I didn't actually make those calls.
    25 Dec 2012, 08:49 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    ii

     

    Reminds me about a community bank I worked for.
    Local paper runs a "BEST X (product/service/food) in the City/community".
    The Marketing VP sent an email out to all the employees...all employees family and friends should "vote early and vote often"...many employees took it to heart!

     

    The local paper lacked any screening for multiple votes, so the bank won.
    There was another competitor community bank in town that was head and shoulders better than us in customer service and community involvement.

     

    Games are played in all shapes and sizes...positive and negative hype.

     

    Refreshing to have minimal TROLL action on the APC, and when it happens, the TROLLS get called out.
    Again...
    "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants"...Brand...
    25 Dec 2012, 12:21 PM Reply Like
  • Occam's_Razor
    , contributor
    Comments (1136) | Send Message
     
    Metro: I called President Obama and asked him what he thought of the PbC.... after all the pleasantries, of course.
    25 Dec 2012, 02:50 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    magounsq, Thanks, Interesting story and fitting.

     

    I've seen information that political interests do household research and deliver personal information "promises" door to door. Yeah, that's what constituents need.

     

    I like your sunlight comments. I remember something similar having to do with "Shine a light on it....." basically bring it out in the light and have a good look at it. Make sure nothing is hidden.
    25 Dec 2012, 03:24 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2235) | Send Message
     
    Merry Xmas all. Haven't been commenting because I have nothing to add to the conversation. I'd respond to some of the previous comments in this APH but not worth the bother. Sitting tight on my stock and watching the PPS. My sense is we need to get the capital raise behind us.

     

    Then there is the Congress which I suspect will drag us into recession over inaction on the "cliff" and the future debt ceiling struggle. There is a fundamental problem somewhere in our system.
    24 Dec 2012, 01:04 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (783) | Send Message
     
    Hi Everyone:

     

    After the revelation (Christmas Gift) made ​​up.

     

    On December 22, I wrote:

     

    "EXIDE and JCI will wish to help develop a new technology monopoly (AXION-PbC)?

     

    I put myself in the shoes of JCI and understand the risk that they will are assuming to collaborate on the development of a new technology monopoly, which EXIDE and JCI has no control".

     

    So now the answer seems to be: THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED!!!!

     

    But the problem for EXIDE and JCI is that customers (BMW, TOYOTA and others) seem to be very interested.

     

    I wish a Merry Christmas to all participants in this forum-Carlos.
    24 Dec 2012, 06:29 AM Reply Like
  • InsuranceDude
    , contributor
    Comments (45) | Send Message
     
    Of course you would John. You have already had my post deleted. Why? I schooled you and the investors on dilution. Your "lecture" was something a finance class would point to and laugh at. Your "lecture" should be removed--it is misleading to the uninformed. APH please remove that lecture.
    24 Dec 2012, 09:55 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    I don't know who had what deleted, but I know that I got a message from SA moderation this morning advising that they had deleted one of my comments that suggested you and your evil twin were being deliberately less than truthful.

     

    Methinks the troll protesteth too much.
    24 Dec 2012, 10:11 AM Reply Like
  • JohnM121
    , contributor
    Comments (359) | Send Message
     
    I, for one am grateful for the trolls. If not for them, there wouldn't be this forum an all of the insight it has provided. I think whoever is behind it has completely failed. Instead of discouraging investors, it led to an increased confidence in the company that made many of us invest significantly more than we otherwise would.
    24 Dec 2012, 10:29 AM Reply Like
  • InsuranceDude
    , contributor
    Comments (45) | Send Message
     
    I'm sure it has been discussed here, but I found this interesting

     

    http://bit.ly/KqgDwO

     

    Start on page 70. JCI talks about Lead acid AGM + carbon, especially on page 78/79 where they present the positives and negatives. I wonder if they have changed their tune since 2011?
    24 Dec 2012, 10:36 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    JCI has been singing the carbon additive tune for quite a while. Fortunately other battery manufacturers have been honest enough to demonstrate that the tune is a fairy tale.

     

    At the ELBC in September Germany's Banner Battery, one of the finest battery manufacturers in the world, presented a dynamic charge acceptance graph that compares the rapid and irreversible DCA loss of:

     

    1. A top quality AGM battery;
    2. A top quality AGM with graphite paste additives
    3. A top quality AGM with graphite and activated carbon additives.

     

    The curves are plain as day and prove the falsity of the tune. The additives do make AGM perform better, but it still performs at 10% of the level the automakers need.

     

    http://bit.ly/QkCOK0

     

    FWIW, the Banner presentation was made by this years winner of the ILA's lifetime achievement award.
    24 Dec 2012, 10:49 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    All and all I think JCI has been more cautious in public about the virtues of carbon additives than Exide. I'm not even sure JCI offers a product with carbon additives yet. I was not able to find any documents indicating an offering when I looked some time ago.

     

    I don't look that much any more after your Banner post and other discussions . It's clear that the solution for some apps lies elsewhere and that carbon is a good though not adequate advancement for the areas Axion is targeting.
    24 Dec 2012, 11:16 AM Reply Like
  • InsuranceDude
    , contributor
    Comments (45) | Send Message
     
    I was referring to the "replace lead negative plates with carbon plates", not the additives. That suggests they have real world experience with PbC. They say the challenge is that it significantly reduces battery capacity and requires a second battery. Oddly, they leave out the section on the graph on cycling(supposedly one of the big positives for PbC).That leads to me to make another contact, but Johnson Controls is closed for the holidays. Before I am called a troll liar, call 414-524-1200 for yourself and listen to the recorded message. I will get to them when they return.
    24 Dec 2012, 10:57 AM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2235) | Send Message
     
    InsuranceDude? Are you kidding me? The conversation has slowly dissolved into a new version of Brand X. I am sure that the fact that you got a recorded message that JCI is closed for the holidays makes you completely credible, and no doubt you will get a candid appraisal of the PBC from a JCI executive.

     

    You lost me ages ago when you stated the military had "walked away" from Axion. I sold the military design, research, test, and prototype development services for many years and the Department of Defense is a vast organization with a total inability to even crawl together much less "walk" in unison.

     

    Your comments about Epower border on slanderous. Norfolk has spent a ton of money on the 999 development and collectively it has many technical issues on a system basis that could delay the installation of the batteries. Installing the batteries is the last step in the prototype development process and I am sure they want everything else nailed down perfectly before the final step.

     

    I am not go to engage in a conversation with you because it would be a pointless exercise that would provide you an opportunity to engage in more semantic innuendo. Please, somebody, hit the delete key on this whole APH if necessary.
    24 Dec 2012, 11:31 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1415) | Send Message
     
    DFTT

     

    My family and I wish everyone a healthy and happy Christmas, whether it is a deeply religious event or a day off work.

     

    Gordon
    24 Dec 2012, 11:51 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    "I was referring to the "replace lead negative plates with carbon plates", not the additives. That suggests they have real world experience with PbC."

     

    BMW and NSC testing programs and purchasing decisions suggests those companies demur from JCI's conclusions.

     

    :-) Look around a bit and you will also find a Sandia National Labs report on battery performance in which research state clearly they attempted fabrication of a carbon anode for testing and were unable to get any thing that worked. Maybe that is in part due to the reality that there are "carbon plates" and there are 'carbon plates', somewhat analogous to the 35K+ different species of azeala plants.

     

    Do yourself a favor and consider the possibility that you are far from the most informed and most capable critical thinker on this board. Consider the possibility that blog participants are something other than sycophants. Consider using the tools so thoughtfully brought to attention of readers in the concluding section of blog text labeled,
    "Links to valuable Axion Power research and websites:"
    24 Dec 2012, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Please delete the Troll Brothers.

     

    Use of a power is not the same as misuse. This one poster ( I believe both to be the same poster) is known to us. I don't mind discussion. But this isn't discussion.
    24 Dec 2012, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    I would not delete any of the past, but I would heavily moderate the future.

     

    The conversation was useful, but it's run its course. We don't want to lose the ground that's been plowed, but we don't want to keep re-plowing it either.
    24 Dec 2012, 12:34 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1460) | Send Message
     
    Dozens of folks come through here offering due diligence materials and opinions. And then there's the banter. I like this place. I have seen what boards can be. This one may not be one of a kind, but it's the easily one of the best in its depth of information and input from intelligent people, while remaining more than just pleasant. It's welcoming. We can and do discuss both sides of many issues without the histrionics of "Kool-Aid comments" and "Shame on you".

     

    Folks like the I-dude don't get it. What has he really brought to the table?

     

    Well, I just reviewed all 39 of his comments and the answer was clear: Nothing of value. So what? I don't think I have done much better. However, I'm not trying to be noxious or obnoxious just for the sake of being so and that's the vibe this I-dude emits.

     

    To preserve the welcoming and learning atmosphere that has been cultivated here, I have to ask: Why shouldn't the host just zap the pest and save us the effort of ignoring him?
    24 Dec 2012, 12:36 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2099) | Send Message
     
    Edmund & Futurist, I agree with your conclusions that this thread from the disruptive poster(s?) has made it abundantly clear, to the regulars here, that the intention is not to stimulate constructive dialog, but to sow discord and doubt. But it needed to play out in a way that we all can see this plainly in the evolution from innocent questions to obfuscating lies and twisting of reality.

     

    Thus, I agree with John. Leave the past so we can always look back and recognize the pattern when it occurs. It will undoubtedly occur again. But delete any further nonsense from these avatars. The pseudo-objective pretense of ignorance followed by self-righteous ranting has gotten tedious.
    24 Dec 2012, 01:46 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7603) | Send Message
     
    From what I see much of the "noise" from I Dude comes from responding to those who try to label him a troll. Remove all that nonsense and just respond to his posts with facts, not accusations, and none of this will be an issue. By attacking and labeling you create the very situation you claim to dislike.
    By the way it's quite obvious from the writing styles that ID and Grob are not the same person. I'm sure the admins could do an IP check and confirm.
    25 Dec 2012, 09:13 AM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1460) | Send Message
     
    Merry Christmas everyone! I hope your holidays are whatever you and yours are hoping for!
    24 Dec 2012, 12:39 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    It occurred to me today that all of us anxious to move to AMEX or a different OTC might take a gander at the ZBB chart ...

     

    /http://yhoo.it/TSbkdM

     

    If you don't meet expectations, you're in trouble no matter where you are.

     

    Should be an interesting "horse race" to watch these two in the coming years.
    24 Dec 2012, 01:12 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    ZBB is a fine company and their technology looks promising, but it's only suitable for one class of applications where the PbC is well suited to several. I think ZBB will be a great performer, but the technology isn't in the same class as the PbC.
    24 Dec 2012, 01:30 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    I was referring to stock performance, not technology ... and horse race might be quite apt over the years ... could easily them passing each other a number of times before there's a clear "victor."

     

    (and hopefully neither dies on the side of the track!)
    24 Dec 2012, 01:33 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    I sure wouldn't fee comfortable betting against ZBB because it too is a survivor. Besides, I really like the members of their crew that I've had a chance to interact with.
    24 Dec 2012, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • dlmca
    , contributor
    Comments (335) | Send Message
     
    Thank you and Merry Xmas Axionista devotees and major contributors stimulated by JP

     

    Not sure you fully appreciate how you are eductauing so many in so many ways

     

    Much appreciated - from me and the growing number of watchers
    24 Dec 2012, 01:34 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    Their battery technology may be suited to only one class of application, JP, but wonder if the same applies to their EnerSection device. Inverters/converter systems handling multiple inputs and storage media seem applicable to multiple markets.
    24 Dec 2012, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    I don't know enough to even hazard a guess, but there are a lot of smart people and companies in the power control business so it strikes me as a product with more limited potential, unless of course they've corralled a genius who found a way to do something nobody else can accomplish.
    24 Dec 2012, 01:51 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    "I don't know enough to even hazard a guess ...."

     

    The company has announced certification to UL standards on two sizes of grid-tie inverters, 25kW and 125kW. In their words,
    " The UL 1741 certification incorporates IEEE 1547 requirements for the interconnection of distributed generation (DG) resources."

     

    ZBB also announced a supply agreement "to provide controllers for Crosspoint Kinetics' second generation hybrid system. Crosspoint Kinetics is a wholly owned subsidiary of Cummins Crosspoint, LLC." (This suggests their inverter systems are not all multiple input/output designs.)

     

    And, I seem to recall (but did not find a ZBB PR for it) sale of an EnerSection unit to a California project that did not buy the zinc-bromide battery.
    24 Dec 2012, 03:02 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    D-Inv: Is this it? November 15, 2011: "ZBB Energy Corporation Chosen by Facility Gateway for Lower Valley Utility Grid Interactive Energy Storage System Project"

     

    "... The system will include customer-provided lead acid batteries and the ZBB EnerSection™ power and energy control center".

     

    http://mwne.ws/LEGdiD

     

    HardToLove
    24 Dec 2012, 03:53 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    That is the one, HTL. I was thinking it occurred some time in 2012 rather than 2011. Must not have looked far enough back to find it.
    24 Dec 2012, 04:28 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    D-Inv: "Must not have looked far enough back to find it".

     

    Effect of theory of relativity? When I was 4 and waiting for Xmas, the year was 25% of my life. Now it's around 1.6% and things from a couple years back seem "like yesterday".

     

    I can't tell how many times I've searched for articles I'd seen "a few days ago" and discovered it was four or five months back, once I finally found it.

     

    Maybe "There's a nap for that"! :-))

     

    HardToLove
    24 Dec 2012, 04:57 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    "Maybe "There's a nap for that"! :-))"

     

    VERY good HTL. LOL
    24 Dec 2012, 05:00 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    "Maybe "There's a nap for that"! :-))"

     

    LOL! Or several.
    24 Dec 2012, 05:32 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    "I can't tell how many times I've searched for articles I'd seen "a few days ago" and discovered it was four or five months back, once I finally found it."

     

    The "40 winks" nap.

     

    " I was thinking it occurred some time in 2012 rather than 2011. Must not have looked far enough back to find it. "

     

    Rip Van Winkle jr. nap.
    25 Dec 2012, 09:31 PM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (369) | Send Message
     
    The following are copy-pasted from page 24 of a manual entitled "Fuel Cell Bus Maintenance" published by the US DOE
    ( http://1.usa.gov/12AM4xO ):

     

    Freeze Protection

     

    The parking location must prevent the fuel cell stacks from freezing at all times. All fuel cell stacks contain water in the air and hydrogen paths that is created during the power generation reaction and as a result of humidification.

     

    In addition, some fuel cell stacks are cooled using pure de-ionized water, while others are cooled using a mixture of de-ionized water and ethylene glycol. If any of this water freezes, it can damage or destroy the fuel cell stacks. If the fuel cell stacks freeze in the absence of water, they may be harmed but not destroyed. Ice within other parts of the fuel cell en-gine can damage components.
    Some fuel cell buses are equipped with freeze protection equipment that circulates warm water or heats specific areas in order to prevent freezing.

     

    When parking the bus, ensure that the ambient temperature will not drop below 41 ºF (5 ºC). If the temperature may drop to this temperature, the options are:

     

    • Operate the freeze protection equipment, if installed.
    • Park the bus inside a heated facility. All heating equip-ment must conform to facility requirements (Section 10.2).
    • Leave the engine running (only viable for short-term parking).
    • Remove the stacks and store within a heated facility.

     

    Hydrogen Safety and Freeze Protection

     

    Hydrogen safety and freeze protection for short-term storage is the same as for parking.
    ----------------------...

     

    My personal comments:

     

    Please note that hydrogen vehicles must be parked where the ambient temperature is no less than 41 degrees farenheit. Otherwise the unit must contain an integrated heater that is plugged in and run until it is used again.

     

    Fleet vehicles, like buses, post office vehicles, UPS and FedEx vans, and non-combat base military vehicles --- vehicles that always park overnight in the same stall --- as well as fork lifts, which are stored inside, are the best candidates for EV and fuel cell technologies because they can easy be plugged in overnight (fuel cell vehicles to keep their heaters running).
    24 Dec 2012, 02:10 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Merry Christmas to all.

     

    When raising a glass for the x-mas toast,
    remember APH, for he's been a good host

     

    Remember Mayascribe for starting this thing,
    and all the contributors that have flown on its wing.

     

    Merry Christmas to Axion and all who take aim
    at the "next generation of great batteries" game.
    24 Dec 2012, 02:21 PM Reply Like
  • Ricknplano
    , contributor
    Comments (289) | Send Message
     
    Futurist,

     

    A charming little ditty I truly must say
    A nice rhyme to read on this post Christmas day.
    Yes Maya, we thank you, and others as well
    For all the fine info and stories you tell.
    We learn about batteries and business and trains
    and posit our theories on earnings and gains.
    We hope for good news, its been quite a while,
    We want a new year that makes us all smile.
    So good luck to us all, let us be of good cheer,
    Momentum is building; twenty thirteen is our year.
    26 Dec 2012, 12:21 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3331) | Send Message
     
    God bless us everyone...but please lord, let BMW get 'er done!
    26 Dec 2012, 03:22 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1460) | Send Message
     
    Last January AXPW pps moved from ~0.30 to ~0.60, perhaps due to the announcement of regulatory changes in the frequency regulation market niche. http://bit.ly/sGbVZu

     

    A smaller bump at the beginning of OCT 2012 (~0.25 to ~0.34) may have been related to PJMs decision to pay for performance.
    http://bit.ly/Pde8Uu

     

    I am hoping that this Cubical niche will become a significant source of demand for the PbC, but it doesn't get much coverage here or in TGs CCs. That surprises me since the "skinny" on the Cube is not a matter of speculation for Axion, like the strategic partner, the UL cert, the BMW/NS timelines, etc.

     

    Can anyone shed light on how the New Castle Cube is doing and/or what the project's future holds, perhaps a bigger Cube if it's worthwhile?
    24 Dec 2012, 02:33 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    Edmund: just from memory, TG said in the recent CC that AXPW PC got a +92 rating, meaning they get paid $1 + $0.92 for each unit of service. We had nothing to compare to but the number sounded quite positive. Someone posted a link to a description of the meanings. IIRC, a rating under 40 was cause for review. So I'd be guessing that +100 is the max possible rating.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Dec 2012, 02:46 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1460) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/U6Xhj3

     

    My first time seeing the Alstom name. Would these guys be competitors of Viridity?
    24 Dec 2012, 03:15 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1460) | Send Message
     
    Good grief, Alstom is huge! An excerpt from the article:

     

    Earlier this year, Alstom Grid also delivered new functions for demand response compensation, enabling PJM to become the first Regional Transmission Organization (RTO) in the U.S. to comply with FERC’s Order 745, which addresses payments for demand response.

     

    About PJM Interconnection

     

    PJM manages the operation of the electric transmission grid across 13 states and the District of Columbia, which serves 60 million people. Alstom has provided PJM with market management technologies for over a decade, and delivered innovative market solutions including smart dispatch, settlements, and capacity markets that positioned them ideally for this latest implementation.

     

    About Alstom

     

    Alstom is a global leader in the world of power generation, power transmission and rail infrastructure and sets the benchmark for innovative and environmentally friendly technologies. Alstom builds the fastest train and the highest capacity automated metro in the world, provides turnkey integrated power plant solutions and associated services for a wide variety of energy sources, including hydro, nuclear, gas, coal and wind, and it offers a wide range of solutions for power transmission, with a focus on smart grids. The Group employs 92,000 people in around 100 countries. It had sales of €20 billion and booked close to €22 billion in orders in 2011/12.

     

    Alstom Grid has over 100 years of expertise in electrical grids. Whether for utilities or electro-intensive industries or facilitating the trading of energy, Alstom Grid brings power to its customers’ projects. Alstom Grid ranks among the top 3 in electrical transmission sector with an annual sales turnover of more than €4 billion. It has 20,000 employees and over 90 manufacturing and engineering sites worldwide. At the heart of the development of Smart Grid, Alstom Grid offers products, services and integrated energy management solutions across the full energy value chain—from power generation, through transmission and distribution grids and to the large end user.
    24 Dec 2012, 03:24 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Edmund,
    Many of us believe that the PowerCube is a wonderful prospect for a large amount of future orders. This requires customers that need back-up power and have some flexibility to allow PJM to use their back-up asa frequency regulation tool. No numbers have been released by Axion, PJM, or Viridity to show what the payback could be for a Cube. The Cube is scaleable so size is not an issue up to 1MW, as far as we know.
    As stated earlier the Cube gets a high payment from PJM because of its super fast reliable response time.
    We will know whether that is profitable upon the release of the numbers or numerous orders from PJMs customer base.
    Merry Christmas
    24 Dec 2012, 03:24 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    EM, my speculation runs a bit different on the price developments in early 2012 which I credit to disclosure of the Washington Navy Yard Net Zero project.

     

    TG referenced cube prospects in context of bids already submitted in response to RFPs on projects ranging in size from 50kWh to 4MWh and bids in final stages of preparation in response to RFPs received following Axion presentations at a September power utility conference. "Fiscal cliff" and EPA regulatory uncertainties likely (IMO) bear on decisions of whether and, if so, when to move forward with bid selections.
    24 Dec 2012, 03:28 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    D-Inv: ISTR also that 4MW was easily scalable size by ganging the units. They're designed with that in mind.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Dec 2012, 05:43 PM Reply Like
  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (367) | Send Message
     
    Merry xmas to all Axionistas
    24 Dec 2012, 03:06 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    Yes indeed, merry xmas to all.
    24 Dec 2012, 03:41 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (843) | Send Message
     
    Up 2.78% today. Feels like a nice little xmas present for us all. May it be the gift that keeps on giving in 2013! :) -- Merrry xmas to all.
    24 Dec 2012, 04:01 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    Mayascribe had theorized in a private conversation some time back that the concentrators, due to the depth of DD and participation, might have become "self-correcting" against possible trolls.

     

    Is this "goodbye" a sign it is so? Don't know. If so, let's hope it works well repetitively (and *not* indiscriminately) as there's likely lots of different types of trolls out there that will like to try and disrupt for many reasons, both personal and financial.

     

    My belief in "enough rope to hang themselves" is what guides me and I have ultimate faith in that process *here*.

     

    May not be everyone's preference.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Dec 2012, 04:05 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2099) | Send Message
     
    I like that idea of the APC becoming a “self correcting“ organism. It's like we, as a loosely organized community with a common purpose, have developed an immune system to recognize the precancerous and infectious cells before they can grow big enough to harm the total being.

     

    We are sensitized to the bs with little bs-receptors that trigger the rapid disbelief response system as soon as the new cell begins to emit nonsense and misinformation. Then the organism rejects the disruptor for what it is.

     

    But we are otherwise a rather welcoming community for those who wish to be civil and constructive, to learn and to contribute.

     

    I wish to thank all who participate here, and those who lead and entertain us every day with their remarkable work and intellectual diligence. I have been participating for about a year now, and I have learned so incredibly much.

     

    Merry Christmas, Axionistas!

     

    And may we have a joyful and profitable New Year!
    24 Dec 2012, 09:11 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    I wonder if "professional Trolls" get paid by the word? Their postings seem to suggest it.

     

    Another thought; do potential participants see the silly discussions promoted by Trolls and decide a site is just another verbal "circle jerk"? This forum could lose valuable input from such silent rejections of the AXPW concentrator.
    24 Dec 2012, 05:02 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    SHB: With a 192 followers and a few new every day or two, I think potential contributors see the real value. And they should be able to discriminate about the nature of the concentrator with just a little patience.

     

    The biggest risk, I think, is the fear of being labeled if they display their ignorance. Lots of folks averse to that sort of stuff.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    24 Dec 2012, 05:05 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    >HTL: "The biggest risk, I think, is the fear of being labeled if they display their ignorance. Lots of folks averse to that sort of stuff."

     

    Good point. Having been ignorant early and often, I appreciate a bit of slack when entering a new "school yard" :-)

     

    Lucky for me that I am very smart these days and have an iron clad EGO (big, too!) ;-)
    24 Dec 2012, 05:13 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    SiHB, Here is the article I promised on the inverter "advancement" I mentioned. Obviously there are many for various purposes.

     

    A Better Inverter To Change DC Current to AC

     

    http://bit.ly/Vg0ro6
    24 Dec 2012, 05:40 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    iindelco, sounds interesting, but anything really new in that business would surprise me a bit.

     

    I couldn't find a link to anything that had real information on the new inverter topology. Just the news item. The schematic shown is a design from at least 40 years ago :-)

     

    24 Dec 2012, 06:30 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2097) | Send Message
     
    HI SHB,
    I'm a little late to this party, but that can't be the schematic for a revolutionary new inverter, it has 2 transistors, not one as described in the article and as you said it looks familiar.
    24 Dec 2012, 10:56 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    SiHB, Understood and that's why I launched it your way. Could be a baby step advancement or a quest for "funds". I certainly saw the circuit as pretty simple. Expected in the public domain.

     

    I thank you for the litmus test.
    24 Dec 2012, 11:01 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    Stilldazed, Sorry as I was skimming quickly and missed your post before I responded. All I can say is yep.
    24 Dec 2012, 11:09 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7603) | Send Message
     
    If you read the caption for the schematic it says:
    "Conventional Power Inverter Schematic. One wonders what Izadian’s idea is. Click image for the largest view."

     

    In other words they were not claiming this was the new design, but in fact the conventional one.
    25 Dec 2012, 09:37 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    12/21/2012: EOD stuff partially copied from my instablog (up shortly).
    # Trds: 35, MinTrSz: 500, MaxTrSz: 17500, Vol 92461, AvTrSz: 4203
    Min. Pr: 0.2775, Max Pr: 0.2940, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2882
    # Buys, Shares: 18 72961, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.2889
    # Sells, Shares: 3 12000, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2854
    # Unkn, Shares: 14 7500, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.2850
    Buy:Sell 6.08:1 (78.9% “buys”), DlyShts 31000 (33.53%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 258.33%

     

    First, keep in mind a shortened trading day often has a divergence from recent trends. So any estimates of coming action based on it must be viewed with caution. OTOH, I've been wondering if our little stock might reveal more of the true investor sentiment on such days as the higher-volume market-maker (and other possible parties'?) manipulations would be substantially reduced. Quandaries, quandaries!

     

    First, don't worry about Dly Sht % of 'sells' above – seems very common for low-volume days and does not suggest “big sellers”. Just suggests that more trades went through the “normal” channels and inter/inter-broker trades or MM long positions were not the dominant case.

     

    On the traditional TA front, we had very low volume on a price move up, closing +2.73%. With volume, it would've been a good day. We had both a higher low and a higher high, with the low staying above my short (adjusted yesterday) rising support around $0.2775, AFAICT, and the high breaking above the falling long-term resistance, around $0.2910 AFAICT, before we got a close just below it @ $0.2899.

     

    Something maybe more significant may be a trend line I failed to identify until this morning before trading began. Drawing a short-term falling trend line originating at the high of 12/5, ignoring the “overshoot” to $0.315 (only 2K shares at the open) of 12/17, with several subsequent touches, the last being yesterday's high, made a “consolidation triangle” with the rising short-term support I've been tracking. These form an apex today. Bulkowski has noted that this very often is accompanied by a movement in price. Possible support for this? Let's see ...

     

    Lows, since the 13th onward are holding up pretty well: 0.2812, 0.2710, 0.2800, 0.2790, 0.2750, 0.2780, 0.2760, 0.2775. Highs for the same period doing the same: 0.2990, 0.2975, 0.3150, 0.2900, 0.2899, 0.2825, 0.2822, 0.2940. This seems supported by all the oscillators I watch now curling up in a move towards more bullish attitudes, although not yet in bullish territory: RSI ~53.8, MFI ~37.15, momentum flat at ~0.989. Even the stochastic and ADX related have made the turn. But we must be mindful of the low volume here.

     

    The traditional 20-period lower Bollinger is now rising and the upper limit is reducing it's drop rate. On my experimental 13-period settings the same situation exists and the price is still above the lower band so it is not “pushing” it.

     

    And the MACD, which I don't normally follow, continues to become less negative.

     

    All considered, I can't say a bull move is coming – entry into medium consolidation is certainly possible. But my thoughts that we are setting up for a leg up in a rising trading channel is not yet broken and may now have support from my experimental stuff ...

     

    Today's VWAP moved above it's shortest 3 averages, 10, 25 and 50-day, of $0.2856, $0.2849 and $0.2821. Note that those three are “stacked” in order of increasing duration – considered by some to be a bullish indicator. On my price chart, the long-term calculated descending trend lines had seen a correlation recently as high 82 and over the last few days the low price one has weakened to 78, suggesting another departure from its trend, and the VWAP and high price trend correlations have weakened to 79. When I've noticed these weakening before we've generally had at least a noticeable short-term price rise before more downward movement returned.

     

    The buy:sell percentage continues its recovery towards “normal”, as indicated by changes in the 10-day SMA over the last 8 days: 43%, 39%, 37%, 35%, 38%, 37%, 38% and 40%. The 10-day average now resides right at the rising trend I recently added to that chart, looking to move back above it.

     

    Last, my experimental inflection point calculations appear to have almost made the necessary alignments to suggest a price rise. The similarities, and differences, to prior periods where these preceded a noticeable move up can be seen on the chart, with some careful inspection. The biggest difference, leaving me still unsure of their validity, is that the range the longer-term calculations are in right now is lower than what has been seen before. I can't say, due to lack of experience with them, if this is significant or not. My feeling for now is that the range is not important and only the congruence of behavior in the period calculations is important. Numerically, the short-term change is presented by the following showing percentage improvement or deterioration in the 5, 10, 25, 50, 100 and 200-day calculations. The third line shows the net change over the three days.

     

    12/20-12/21: 04.35, 10.69, 02.79, 03.81 -19.86, 07.69
    12/21-12/24: 38.37, 01.33, 10.09, 13.26, 07.32, 03.96
    12/20-12/24: 41.05, 11.88, 07.59, 09.95, -11.08, 11.35

     

    “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” stuff omitted here.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Dec 2012, 05:54 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    CORRECTION: # of trades 22, not 35 - I forgot to delete unused rows.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Dec 2012, 06:19 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    Sounds quite promising for future cost and weight reductions. Thanks, ii.
    24 Dec 2012, 05:56 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Happy Holidays everybody.
    24 Dec 2012, 10:18 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2097) | Send Message
     
    Happy Holidays to everyone. Lots of info here in the last couple of days to digest and research. What a great present!!
    24 Dec 2012, 10:45 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    Too early perhaps but maybe someday. At least it's an EMD opportunity.

     

    Metrolink Looks to Make Locomotive Upgrades

     

    "The alternative fuels to be looked at include liquefied natural gas and battery technology."

     

    http://bit.ly/ZxBPeP
    25 Dec 2012, 07:57 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    "The contract will bring the locomotive on line in phases, starting with a base order of 10 with the option to buy up to 10 more. Metrolink has allocated $129.4 million for the purchase."

     

    That sure sounds like a price tag of about $12 million for each of the new Tier 4 locomotives, but I guess shiny and new are important in LA. Since Metrolink runs passenger trains, a diesel mother - battery slug configuration isn't really an option, but for them who use consists of several locomotives, a $2 million battery retrofit is looking better all the time.
    25 Dec 2012, 09:13 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    If I recall correctly 12 million USD seems directionally correct for 3 gen. set hybrid locomotives. I thought DRich gave a number in this range. In light rail maybe some other configuration applies better. We'll wait and see if he can chime in here.

     

    Those rich Cali folks can afford it.

     

    California is 24/7 Wall St.’s “Worst Run State” for the second year in a row.

     

    http://yhoo.it/V2X7ul

     

    PS Coming from NY I would suggest they may be wrong in their #50 slot selection for worst.

     

    PPS I can see why NS takes full advantage of their in house rebuild ops to recycle/upgrade their fleet.
    25 Dec 2012, 09:57 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4426) | Send Message
     
    >JP & iindelco ... Sounds like a perfect application for a GreenGoat configuration locomotive. Just as a refresher here are my estimate for a genset loco.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    The figure of $12M would/should buy completely new trains.
    25 Dec 2012, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    Thanks DRich, I can't for the life of me remember where I got the figure from but I certainly recalled you sharing some cost data for different category (technology) locos. Thanks for helping out the lazy guy (me). Shows how good my memory is.
    25 Dec 2012, 12:34 PM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    It's not about if a commenter is a troll or not. Its about the method in which they contribute to this forum. Looking for cracks is what we do here and it has been done in a respectful and professional way. This is no longer true and if the APH is going to continue to allow the ego's to run unbridled then they can expect some of us to go away (or perhaps just me).

     

    Merry Christmas everyone...
    25 Dec 2012, 10:51 AM Reply Like
  • growsmart
    , contributor
    Comments (157) | Send Message
     
    I agree Tim. This is beginning to feel like the Brand X board.
    25 Dec 2012, 11:00 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    growsmart, Can't imagine what that's like.

     

    http://bit.ly/UBcNIV
    25 Dec 2012, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    Tim...

     

    If you and others depart, the TROLLS have succeeded.

     

    Just MHO.
    25 Dec 2012, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • Alphameister
    , contributor
    Comments (1431) | Send Message
     
    There have probably been previous comments on this, but I've just heard about a Gen 3 lithium ion battery in which graphene electrodes reportedly allow the battery to charge 10 times faster and hold 10 times more power. No indication that such batteries are ready for commercial production.
    25 Dec 2012, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    It's BS, and expensive BS to boot.

     

    Innovations in the battery industry take a decade to advance from the Eureka! moment to first production and another decade to advance from first production to cost optimized production.

     

    Battery innovations based on inherently expensive and exotic materials like graphene and carbon nanotubes never make it beyond the laboratory because the materials costs are crippling.

     

    You may see graphene batteries used in satellites or other exotic devices, but the prefix "nano" is scientific jargon for gawd awful expensive and that trait is diametrically opposed to cost-effective batteries.
    25 Dec 2012, 11:26 AM Reply Like
  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1033) | Send Message
     
    Maybe a bit off topic, and for sure I don't want to take any sides, but the following discovery could lead somewhere: how to produce ready to use graphene with cheap and widely available tech. Also the authors seem quite credible (UCLA)
    http://bit.ly/IMihIp
    http://bit.ly/W0rtfy
    25 Dec 2012, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    Good stuff Nicu. There are tons of thinks coming even after tons of things never make it. We'll need them all.
    25 Dec 2012, 12:29 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    The problem with using materials like graphene in supercapacitors is the sheer weight per cell. If you take typical lithium-ion energy cell, graphite represents about 1/6 of total cell weight. Power cells use a good deal less graphite but it's still significant.

     

    See page 52 of PDF (page 38 of report) – http://1.usa.gov/Izaa4P

     

    Any time you talk about using man-made materials for a sixth of several hundred pounds, the costs get astronomically high. There's also the reality that the best man-made carbons aren't that much better than the best natural carbons like activated coconut husks. They may be able to increase surface area by 20 or 30 percent, but its nowhere near the orders of magnitude the happy talk stories you read in the mainstream media.
    25 Dec 2012, 12:32 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    The header to each Concentrator says:

     

    WARNING: This is a troll free zone. We reserve the right to eliminate posts, or posters that are disruptive.

     

    That paragraph used to mean something. With the serial attacks on my knowledge and integrity that I've had to endure with increasing frequency over the last few weeks I no longer believe the header mens what it says.

     

    I get enough abusive crap on my articles. I won't stand for it here. The powers that be have a choice to make.
    25 Dec 2012, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (369) | Send Message
     
    If JP leaves, this board is dead.

     

    I respect the links and insights posted by several other contributors, but no one here has anywhere near the breadth of experience and depth of knowledge about this sector that he does.

     

    Because of my lack of knowledge, I have questioned my investment in Axion on a few occasions, and every time JP's posts have helped me understand where PbC fits in the competitive landscape and what the time frame for moving forward is going to be.

     

    JP gives keynote addresses at battery conferences, for goodness sake!

     

    It is not too hard to spot a troll. Others have pointed out the tell-tale signs. I hope the APC moderator is able to weed these guys out not only to save us all the trouble of reading garbage, but also to save JP the trouble of having to deal with them or ultimately leave, which would be the end of this board.

     

    I might have panicked on several occasions without JP's contributions, and I hate to think of how I would muddle along if he pulled out of here.

     

    Merry Christmas to all, by the way.
    25 Dec 2012, 02:46 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    I enjoy this forum immensely and think its the most extraordinary phenomenon I've seen in my career. Honest questions and disagreements that are fairly and openly discussed and resolved are intellectually challenging and stimulating. Cheap shots, dishonest questions and personal attacks violate my "life is too short rule." I don't want to give this forum up without a fight, but I have better things to do than waste my time with a slightly upscale version of Brand X.
    25 Dec 2012, 02:59 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    JP

     

    I would tend to agree.
    It has to play out, expose then stop.

     

    This mostly TROLL free zone is a respite from the paid TROLL attacks on many of your other articles.
    25 Dec 2012, 12:46 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    No it's not! The first camel stuck his head into the tent a month ago and started stalking me here even though SA banned him from commenting on my articles.

     

    Recently we've had two more worry trolls come in and start politely calling me a liar while questioning my honesty, integrity and knowledge. Fighting words politely couched are still fighting words and if APH is unwilling to protect me and the members of this forum from that kind of abuse and harassment I don't want to be a part of it.

     

    I welcome principled disagreement and divergent viewpoints on any issue, but I draw the line when it gets offensively personal.
    25 Dec 2012, 12:49 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    I back JP on this 100%.

     

    As for above comments that first comments by accused trolls were innocent questions... with all due respect, that is part of the pattern of development every single time. If you want to read through 190 concentrators, you will see this pattern happen more than a dozen times with different user names.

     

    Happy Holidays to all.
    25 Dec 2012, 01:19 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    APH will take care of it or the board will not exist.

     

    I and others here watched it escalate on the brand x board until it became what it is today which is basically an unflushed toilet. grobertson1 is guaranteed to be OMY based on the writing style and the tactics. Takes pieces of others works and spins them to add credibility and plays the victim card while trying to attack contributors. Even if many can see through it, given the opportunity to post junk over and over will drive people away because it's so unpalatable.
    25 Dec 2012, 01:41 PM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (673) | Send Message
     
    For those wondering why so many posts about trolls, this morning grobertson1 had several of the worst posts of personal attacks on JP I have ever seen. Thankfully APH zapped them before I could respond to them. JP has given countless hours to freely share with us his wealth of knowledge. He has a right to be upset at all the personal attacks designed to frustrate and destroy this amazing exchange of ideas.
    25 Dec 2012, 01:53 PM Reply Like
  • bobhaeger
    , contributor
    Comments (42) | Send Message
     
    I also support JP 100%. Thank you APH for zapping the trolls. Hopefully the most recent faces of OMY are now banned. It is a serious and unwelcome distraction to allow trolls the privilege of posting here. Happy Holidays to all.
    25 Dec 2012, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (783) | Send Message
     
    150% with Mr. JP.
    Happy Holidays to all-Carlos
    25 Dec 2012, 03:06 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    JP

     

    "I welcome principled disagreement and divergent viewpoints on any issue, but I draw the line when it gets offensively personal."

     

    Point taken.
    Once you have called out the TROLLS, I just ignore their posts, so it's less "invasive" for me but does take up a lot of space.

     

    You, on the other hand, must engage more than you should have too.
    Agreed, it does get offensively personal.
    As I have posted before, when the TROLLS question a man's integrity, that goes way over the line and they should be dismissed.
    26 Dec 2012, 09:21 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    JP's willingness to answer almost any relevant question about Axion and the PbC are what makes this concentrator something special. His wide knowledge of, and reporting on, the battery energy storage field is a unique resource for me. I would have never known enough about the PbC and how uniquely it fills the "cheap, moderate power/high energy" niche without his continuing efforts to educate anyone interested.

     

    Therefore, I believe he has a right to call "Troll" and to be backed up by those interested in a USEFUL gathering place of interested investors. I have watched multiple trolls come and go over the last 2 years. What defines a troll isn't that they question assumptions, it is when they cast a cloud of doubt on any and everything known about a company and its products, concentrating almost exclusively on Axion. John has called them all, after giving them the rope needed.

     

    He has my support. Banning selected trolls has never before hurt the quality of discussions in the concentrator. I don't expect it to now. Over to you, APH. And thanks for a great site.
    25 Dec 2012, 01:34 PM Reply Like
  • alejotum
    , contributor
    Comments (16) | Send Message
     
    I can also smell the scent of OMY on this board ... he /she like a roaring lion ready to........lol I agree with you Sir (JP).
    incmedia.org
    25 Dec 2012, 03:19 PM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (966) | Send Message
     
    of course they would come on today and get disruptive. trying to find the guard AFK. i am with Tim and Jon, lets keep this place free of trash.
    25 Dec 2012, 04:40 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2097) | Send Message
     
    I enjoy the wit, banter, exchange of ideas and differing viewpoints expressed by many on this site. Many have also had to agree to disagree on certain subjects, industries and investments, this is normal. However the disruptive style of some recent commenters takes away from the free flow of ideas, thinking and research. There is nothing wrong in disagreement, but there is when it is harped on and personal attacks ensue. A person that is so disagreeable has their right to their say, BUT IT DOESN"T HAVE TO BE HERE.
    25 Dec 2012, 05:05 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    According to the header, we have about 38K cumulative comments, excluding deleted ones. Since the beginning APH must have deleted many hundreds of comments from past trolls under various IDs.

     

    Now we have two recent *potential* trolls hat have posted at total of 34 (InsuranceDude) plus GRoberstons1's 18 posts, if I didn't miscount, in the concentrators. I.D.s first post in a concentrator was 12/18. Grobertson's first post in a concentrator was 12/22.

     

    52/38000 = 1/10th of a percent.

     

    And now we get this forum equated to Yahoo. APH is no longer doing the job, "the camel got in the tent about a month ago", folks say they will leave, ...

     

    Who stepped on the cat's tail?

     

    Oh well, it is what it is.

     

    HardToLove
    EDIT; Correction 38.8K comments, so the percentage is even smaller.
    25 Dec 2012, 07:35 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    I am a little surprised at the slow response from APH in the last couple of days.
    Then I remembered that it is the x-mas holiday. That the moderators are indeed real people with real families ,etc.

     

    I have no doubt that their responsibilities will be fullfilled and they, along with other Axionistas will learn from these posters. The style, attack sentences, rumor mongering tactics are always the same.

     

    Lets simply not feed them until we are apprised that they are gone.
    25 Dec 2012, 08:07 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1204) | Send Message
     
    Well said, HTL. I am hopeful that this board can continue to be worth our time, despite the irritation of trolls on occasion.
    We don't want to give them the power to ruin a good thing. Lets not let them win!

     

    If not, before folks leave, let me take the opportunity to say thanks to all who have contributed. I am grateful! (JP and Tim this means you)
    25 Dec 2012, 08:23 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    The songwriter Steve Goodman wrote a fun little ditty "It aint hard to get along with somebody else's troubles, they don't make you lose any sleep at night. As long as fate is out there busting somebody else's bubble, everything's gonna be alright."

     

    http://bit.ly/TnMVwG

     

    A responsible host does not throw an open house and then allow guests to bully, criticize and harass other guests without taking prompt action.

     

    When I write an article for the main pages I have to expect a fair portion of abuse as part of the deal. It's not part of the deal when I go to visit friends. I have complained several times about unsportsmanlike conduct over the last few days. My complaints have been ignored in the *spirit of tolerance and forgiveness.*

     

    That doesn't work for me.
    25 Dec 2012, 11:46 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    "My complaints have been ignored in the *spirit of tolerance and forgiveness.* "

     

    I suspect that's not true. I suspect that the views of some other folks that there might be some value in the posts, that we should be careful about jumping too guickly, ... are also being considered in conjunction with yours. I suspect that takes a little time.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    26 Dec 2012, 07:40 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    I've made my position crystal clear and for now I'm willing to allow future events to direct my course of action or inaction.
    26 Dec 2012, 08:02 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    HTL

     

    By now, more than enough evidence though.

     

    IMHO
    26 Dec 2012, 09:26 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    Effective this morning, I have decided to report as abusive any message that IMO consists of unprovoked aggression toward another poster, substantially elevates noise/signal ratio on the blog, or introduces arguments comments made elsewhere to support argument with JP or anyone else on APCs.

     

    As far as I know, the instablog format does not permit pre-screening of new messages to prevent download of comments by users one wishes to ignore. This results in downloading of material whether one wants to see it or not. I would prefer not seeing anymore material of any kind from grobertson1.
    26 Dec 2012, 10:37 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    Hello all. Just stopped by to say "Merry Christmas to you all!"

     

    Alright, back to the family.
    25 Dec 2012, 08:55 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1414) | Send Message
     
    Merry Christmas ya'll. All I can say is that I've received a priceless education thanks to the APC and JP's articles. It would be a shame to lose this to some trolls.
    26 Dec 2012, 01:39 AM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2350) | Send Message
     
    APH,

     

    I ask that you please vaporize all known Trolls. There are a couple who have shown, beyond any doubt, their true colors and bad intentions. Now that Xmas is over I hope we can move quickly to PROTECT this great information exchange.
    26 Dec 2012, 04:20 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Good Morning all Axionistas,
    I'm taking the day off the blog in order to allow APH to do his/her thing.
    After reading all the comments it is very easy to understand the difference between discussion and dissension.
    Have a wonderful day. I expect to see all again tomorrow except for the unwanted guests.
    As Carlos always says
    Have a Wonderful Day.
    26 Dec 2012, 07:38 AM Reply Like
  • growsmart
    , contributor
    Comments (157) | Send Message
     
    Ditto.
    26 Dec 2012, 08:12 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1902) | Send Message
     
    I appreciate APH's approach to this scenario. I hadn't read the APC's for two full days and had to catch up today. Other then this non-sensible distraction the trolls did little to no harm and I think the lesson that APH allowed to play out here was worth it. He now has a clear mandate going forward over the next couple months to keep the board clean.

     

    The trolls have begun to come out, notice they came out right around the Monday that we had that 1M share day price cap. They must be feeling the squeeze of a bullish price move! Last January during the run the trolls came out in full force, literally hundreds of comments with vitriol, distractions and distortions. At that time many viewing this board, mostly newer followers, did not really understand what was going on, and many thought APH was censoring the conversation, this led some to question the legitimacy of the APC's. Today it appears to me APH has built up an overwhelming majority who see clearly the distractions that can come from trolls reducing the APC's to yadoodoo and that trolls come in all shapes and sizes, from amiable dudes at first to those who do little to disguise their motive.

     

    I would look for the APH to be much less lenient over the next couple months. This is a living room for Axion shareholders and potential shareholders who enjoy digging deeper into the company and the energy storage sector. Level headed people who are smart, sensible and fully-capable of making their own investment decisions without a soothsayer troll to enlighten them on their folly. There is no possible explanation for anyone being here who does not have an open mind about the company, but is only here to discredit the company or other posters based on distortions and mis-information. People who ask hard questions do not already think they know the answer and continue to ask the same question ad-infinitum.

     

    For those that may not like the deletion of distractions and stupidity from nim-wits...go somewhere else. And if nim-wits would like to follow what a nim-wit has to say, yadoo is merely a click or two away.
    26 Dec 2012, 09:23 AM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    new vocabulary word: http://bit.ly/UmqMA6
    26 Dec 2012, 11:04 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    According to Seneca, "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.”
    26 Dec 2012, 11:12 AM Reply Like
  • dlmca
    , contributor
    Comments (335) | Send Message
     
    I am with JP and others on this

     

    This must be a concentrator for honest discourse

     

    Alternatively it will wither away if we do not monitor and eliminate those who have goals and objectives other than our own
    26 Dec 2012, 10:08 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    Over the last couple weeks I've suggested that an attempted buyout of Axion by a battery manufacturer or potential customer could give rise to thorny issues under the antitrust laws. Yesterday I found a great article in the August issue of "Competition Law International" that explains the potential legal problems in understandable terms. It's well worth reading.

     

    http://bit.ly/V2lZ54

     

    The basic issue is that a patent is a Constitutionally authorized legal monopoly granted to an innovator.

     

    If a potential competitor like an Exide comes along during the early stages of the innovation and spends substantial time and money advancing the innovation, then it's reasonable for that strategic partner to share in the special rights that originally belonged to the innovator and demand some form of exclusivity as partial compensation for the risks assumed.

     

    Once a technology advances beyond a certain point, however, the law begins to view investor motives differently, particularly if the innovator has already expressed an intent to make his innovation available to all companies in a particular industry on comparable terms.
    26 Dec 2012, 10:14 AM Reply Like
  • Fancy Pants
    , contributor
    Comments (33) | Send Message
     
    Merry Christmas Axionville! I am a very frequent lurker and am very appreciative of all the discussion and links. I am thankful to all of you.
    26 Dec 2012, 10:17 AM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (430) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » Thanks to all for your patience through this distraction that ironically we had not seen since last January. I hope it was not so painful to discredit the wonderful nearly 40K comments and counting of this concentrator. We are always working to make the APC's as transparent, informative and useful as possible.

     

    Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and know that the future of the APC's will only get better!
    26 Dec 2012, 10:17 AM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for all your hard work APH.
    26 Dec 2012, 11:04 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    I also want to thank you for all the hard work. I know it's a huge investment of time and effort, and that bitchy participants don't make your life any easier. I'm sorry that you ended up taking the brunt of my frustration.
    26 Dec 2012, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    APH ... thank you for all the work you do for us!

     

    Thankless job if you ask me.

     

    I didn't see the deleted posts, but JP I must say, to me, you're on the edge of "Bigfooting" and I don't like it and I don't think APH deserves it, especially at a time of year when he/they may have other family responsibilities.

     

    While I would truly hate to see you and your expertise go, I have no doubt we'll carry on sharing, teaching, and learning.

     

    I also have no doubt APH will get it right, and soon.
    26 Dec 2012, 10:29 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    I see a huge difference between "Bigfooting" and a sincere request for help. I don't deserve the kind of crap I've gotten in this forum over the last month and I can only see three choices:

     

    1. I can suffer the abuse in silence;
    2. I can complain loudly and clearly; or
    3. I can take myself out of the equation.

     

    The first choice is a non-starter for me. I have availed myself of the second. The third remains an option if unrestrained bad behavior continues.

     

    I have no doubt that the group will carry on sharing, teaching, and learning, just as I will carry on writing my blog and responding to my readers. The only open issue is the degree of overlap between the two.
    26 Dec 2012, 10:45 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1902) | Send Message
     
    I don't think JP needs to pussy-foot around when he is being attacked. If a personal attack is made in this forum it is 90% of the time at JP, because he has put his convictions out there -- 20k comments and 270 articles -- repeatedly in the public forum where they are freely swatted at. It is easy for others to look in and say he is being a bully, but it can be absolutely exhausting waking up everyday and having to see what A-hole wrote what about you and having to defend yourself against it repeatedly. He was faced with that at Yadoo -- a JP and Axion bashing fest. Witnessing what could be a slippery slope here into the same non-sense can be pretty disconcerting and cause for alarm.

     

    I think both APH and JP have dealt with their respective roles just fine.
    26 Dec 2012, 11:17 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4596) | Send Message
     
    I agree with you WTB, this deleting and banning anyone who asks questions that are not "drinking the kook-aid" has to stop. Not everyone is a troll.
    I could point out many views that have been dead wrong for the past 3 years. Including some of mine.
    The APC will continue, there are some of the most intelligent people here that are anywhere in many areas of expertise.
    I hate to see anyone go, but to threaten to leave is a bit far fetched just because they disagree or mention things that may not be saying the stock is going to multiple dollars/share and AXPW being a multi-billion $$$ company.
    Trust me, there is a group here just as big as the more positive ones that would like the answers to some questions like:

     

    Why did the big sellers besides Quercus sell out?
    Why is the adoption so slow?
    Is there a problem with manufacturing (fully automated carbon sheeting process)?
    Why did NS not take delivery for so long & waste a year almost on the 999?

     

    None of this is negative, nor from a troll. If someone wants to leave even if they have been responsible for creating so much interest n AXPW...then so be it.
    26 Dec 2012, 12:18 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    As this troll incident has progress I think it's working its way out as quickly as I guess could be inspected. I would expect some lag as the APH makes sure that there is enough evidence to assure that the offending party is not just someone who makes a mistake and then adjusts (I've made some myself). This might seem less obvious to someone like me who already lived with the OMY POS for well over a year and could sense the thing from a mile away.

     

    We also need to respect that this is compounded by the timing of the attack which is intentional IMO. Around the holiday when APH is busy. BTW, unconfirmed, but I also have a theory that the troll often posts well off hours so there is lag between when he/she s&^ts and someone can clean it up.

     

    Anyway, It will be taken care of in short order as the troll has become obvious. I can surely sense JP's frustration and it mimics mine although I'm not really the target for sure. Trolls try to take out the most credible source. But in the end if it's cleaned up my hope is that John's thick skin, developed over years in his endeavors, will show no scars.

     

    OTOH, APH may wonder "What they heck did I sign up for here?". So another round of thanks for a thankless task.
    26 Dec 2012, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    LT: Good thoughts, but a counter-point resides in "Why did the big sellers besides Quercus sell out? ".

     

    Any DD would reveal *many* replies and explanations of this in both the APCs and in JPs articles.

     

    So if one were to ask this question, the depth of (claimed?) DD a poster had done would engender some suspicion, IMO. And there's likely several other questions that would fall into a similar category.

     

    Having said that, I also understand that many don't have the time or resources to dig as deep as many of us and/or haven't followed the APCs and/or JP as long, so maybe the questions arise just as a part of "doing it the easy way".

     

    I don't see an *easy* resolution to trying to figure which is which ("troll" vs. yet-uneducated) in this scenario.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    26 Dec 2012, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1825) | Send Message
     
    I didn't read the deleted posts but suggest that there should be a zero-tolerance policy against personal attacks that malign the character, integrity or motivations of the long time commenters on this insta.

     

    I liked how APH gave the trolls enough rope to hang themselves and reveal their intentions by dissemination of obvious falsehoods.

     

    Troll posts that demonstrate their nature should remain whereas those that impugn the character of JP and other established Axionistas should be deleted.

     

    I believe that is what has occurred although perhaps not as promptly as some would like but, given the holiday circumstances, respectably swift.

     

    Thank you APH, JP.

     

    Feliz Navidad y Buen Ano Nuevo para todos Axionistas!

     

    D
    26 Dec 2012, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (673) | Send Message
     
    WTB, if you had seen the most egregious post, you would have readily understood JP's reaction. Especially as it had been building for several weeks. Groberston1 used Biblical references to call JP childish. As an experienced and educated pastor I was writing a response to correct him when the post was deleted. It was totally out of line. The only regret I have in it being deleted is that many like you would not get to see the full extent of the individual's desire to attack JP.
    26 Dec 2012, 12:36 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1902) | Send Message
     
    Lt, I think you keep confusing someone asking a simple question like you posit above and a troll that mercilessly will not stop with distractions. I know you are smart and I know you know the difference so I am not sure why you keep going down this road.

     

    All of the questions you mentioned have been asked and answered as well as anyone can, and I fully expect them to be asked again. With trolls the answer given never satisfies and while a normal poster would move on satisfied or not and make an investment decision accordingly, a troll never moves on because an answer is not really what they are after.

     

    LT, you know us all well and you darn well know that none of us are scared of these questions, so when you make is sound like we are it is offensive because you know us.

     

    As far as threatening to leave you also left because someone said you were creating straw man arguments, so you left when never being personally attacked rather just because your arguments were being attacked -- a big difference.
    26 Dec 2012, 12:53 PM Reply Like
  • Ishikawa
    , contributor
    Comments (177) | Send Message
     
    Well said, iindelco. I'm with you Bro.

     

    "Everybody has a right to disagree but no right for personal attack !"

     

    Happy holidays to all the Axionistas and the families.
    Hope 2013 is our year to shine.
    26 Dec 2012, 03:22 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1505) | Send Message
     
    "...used Biblical references to call JP childish." I immediately get a vision of Maggott from The Dirty Dozen. Almost sorry I missed that.
    26 Dec 2012, 07:31 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    Metro, I love that move. Haven't seen it in a couple decades and it's not a real deep theme but I still love it as an easy read.
    26 Dec 2012, 10:42 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    It's very early, but we had a nice chunk go off including a 74.5K @ $0.29. Buy:sell 4.48:1, due to it. Removing it still leaves it at 1.5:1 - not excessive.

     

    Intra-day, my experimental charts shows strengthening in inflection point calculations similar to what I expected based on prior behavior.

     

    But it *is* very early yet and things can change.

     

    HardToLove
    26 Dec 2012, 10:42 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4426) | Send Message
     
    >H.T.Love ... Things are looking hopeful. For the first time in nearly a year, Feb 2012, my favorite indicator, MACD, is showing a trendline change above Zero in a channel that seems to have started in late Oct 2012. I know Axion has been above Zero several times over the year but it was never confirmed by the histogram and these false starts were very short in duration. Subject to change, because this is like weather forecasting using the moist finger approach, this looks different.
    26 Dec 2012, 11:08 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    DRich: That's great to hear! As you know, I've been short-term focused for quite a while trying to find something that might be helpful. Having some longer-term view also starting a turn seems to suggest that at last we might make some *sustainable* progress.

     

    If we get even *one* positive news nugget, we should start to move, even allowing for some near-term profit-taking.

     

    The articles from JP have certainly raised awareness, to the point that even SA is including some. With his long-term efforts in learning the industry, only deaf, dumb and blind folks who try to follow would be able to have their opinion not influenced.

     

    HardToLove
    26 Dec 2012, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2388) | Send Message
     
    Energy Power Systems back in the news. We've discussed them several times.

     

    Could Hybrids Use Lead-Acid Batteries? Startup Says Yes

     

    http://bit.ly/12FgpeB

     

    "Where normal lead-acid, 12V car batteries feature six blocks of 2V cells, the new battery features a more direct energy path with interlocking cells. Electrical resistance and weight are both reduced.

     

    The net result is a power rating of 1,900 W/kg--four times that of current lead-acid batteries, and greater even than that of NiMH, at 1,450 W/kg. Better still is the cost--$15-20 per kilowatt, compared to $40-60 for nickel and lithium."

     

    "Current prototypes have been built by hand, but the company expects to have automation soon and production is expected in the fourth quarter 2014. The aim is to supply the light vehicle market by 2016."
    26 Dec 2012, 11:23 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    Wtb: "The aim is to supply the light vehicle market by 2016".

     

    They must have a fast-track through the validation, certification and ramp process to expect that, based on what we've learned about the auto industry.

     

    I think I'll wait and see just how fast it does occur before reaching any conclusions.

     

    HardToLove
    26 Dec 2012, 11:47 AM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9597) | Send Message
     
    I'm just back from Honduras, and waaaay behind in comments. But in my email box were TWO messages with brand new IDs asking me how many shares us Axionistas own.

     

    I AM NOT ANSWERING THAT QUESTION.

     

    From what little I was able to read down in Honduras since December 6 (had some updating connectivity issues down there specific to only my laptop), I have concluded that the Concentrator series has recently been infected by a hired gun...and maybe another troll who has been a disruptive menace on Seeking Alpha for about 4 years, who has used at least 25 different IDs, several of which I have had SA terminate.

     

    I have read where I was being quoted without the commenter mentioning my handle. And the quote was presented as factual, rather than an opinion of an Axion BOD of which I was merely relating.

     

    99% sure now that the hired gun in my opinion works for another battery outfit. I take that as a compliment to the future competitiveness of PbC technology.

     

    Suggesting to be careful in answering those new ID emails, folks.

     

    Hoping all Axionistas are enjoying a terrific Holiday Season!
    26 Dec 2012, 11:34 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1204) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, WTB! I love all of the links that get shared here but that one is more interesting than most because there are real details on cost and power provided. This thing seems like its for real and it is coming.

     

    A power rating of 1,900 W/kg--four times that of current lead-acid batteries--is impressive. Nothing about DCA mentioned and still at least 3 years from being available.
    26 Dec 2012, 11:40 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1415) | Send Message
     
    JP needs to know he is supported here. So much of his time goes into this. I'd feel the same way if I were being personally attacked, I get that.

     

    I'm thinking about different options that could be used with the troll issue. They fall into several categories;
    1) Make it more difficult to post
    2) Speed up the decision re trolls by reporting abuse quickly and often, so APH is advised. Have a rule. For instance, after 5 people report abuse the person is banned. This is a diverse group of strong willed people. I don't think 5 will collude.
    3) Do not respond to increasing trollism. It's a process that we see developing. After a tipping point, simply cut them off by not responding to any of the standard ploys. They do not go from questions to concern to attack in 3 posts. If we know we honor true diverse ideas, then when someone says we don't simply do not respond.
    4, 5, 6 ???

     

    This is a group with written and unwritten rules, pecking orders, etc. The same with every group. Let's not respond to people who break our rules.

     

    I'm a Police Psychologist. The constitution gives you the right to get a job; it does not give you the right to be a Police Officer. So, anyone has the right to post; they do not have the right to troll.

     

    26 Dec 2012, 11:40 AM Reply Like
  • Alphameister
    , contributor
    Comments (1431) | Send Message
     
    I don't like the idea of troll comments simply being ignored and left to play their mischief with guys like me who are not expert technically in these matters and who depend on JP's expert rebuttals for peace of mind. Once a troll is identified, I favor exclusion/deletion of his comments.

     

    That being said, I'd like to thank JP and APH for making this site an incomparably valuable source of investment insight. I have added very substantially to my AXPW holdings based on the confidence engendered by this concentrator series.
    26 Dec 2012, 12:05 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    "The net result is a power rating of 1,900 W/kg--four times that of current lead-acid batteries,"

     

    I haven't seen a "power rating" for PbC batteries, per se, but wouldn't DCA of 5X - 10X that of FLABs and VRLAs suggest PbCs have a higher "power rating" than the Energy Power Systems LA battery?
    26 Dec 2012, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    D-Inv: even if that's true, EPS should have a higher energy density, which would be a plus for them.

     

    I *think*!

     

    HardToLove
    26 Dec 2012, 11:54 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4426) | Send Message
     
    >D-inv ... this & a PbC could provide a complete LA solution. How cool would that be? Maybe by 2025 we'll find out.
    26 Dec 2012, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3926) | Send Message
     
    "EPS should have a higher energy density, which would be a plus for them."

     

    I must of missed something about the Energy Power Systems device (20 wink "nap" perhaps). Why should EPS have a higher energy density?
    26 Dec 2012, 12:23 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17297) | Send Message
     
    DRich: "Maybe by 2025 we'll find out".

     

    LoL! Don't get too optimistic - that's a set up for disappointment ... Geez, I think we all know how that feels.

     

    HardToLove
    26 Dec 2012, 12:29 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    Energy Power Systems is working on a bipolar lead acid battery. It's an idea that's been around forever and holds great technical promise in terms of both power and energy density, but has proven almost impossible to manufacture at scale with consistent quality. The devices could be great for HEVs and plug-ins, but not until somebody overcomes the manufacturing issues.

     

    The most recent bi-polar lead acid battery failure is Atraverda out of the UK. Hopefully EPS or one of the other companies working on bi-polar batteries will succeed.
    26 Dec 2012, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    Energy Power Systems and Advanced Battery Concepts were given a blow in the latest news letter from the ALABC.

     

    "During the press briefing, Dr. Monahov also took the opportunity to introduce and promote a pair of lead-acid battery start-up companies local to the Detroit area that are at the forefront of developing advanced lead-acid and lead-carbon batteries – Advanced Battery Concepts of Midland, MI, which is developing long-life bipolar batteries, and Energy Power Systems of Troy, MI, which is developing extreme high-power cells (2000 W/kg) for full and plug-in hybrids. Advanced Battery Concepts produces its own GreenSeal® battery technology that boasts twice the life of current lead-acid batteries but at half the cost. Energy Power Systems was founded by battery pioneer Subhash Dhar, who has been active in developing efficient, high-power energy storage solutions for automotive and smart grid applications."

     

    http://bit.ly/12FudG2
    26 Dec 2012, 12:54 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29551) | Send Message
     
    I met the Advanced Battery Concepts guys at the ELBC and they seem pretty confident that they have the manufacturing issues under control at the prototype stage. They are most certainly showmen.

     

    http://bit.ly/WGVROC
    26 Dec 2012, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8841) | Send Message
     
    Thanks John. Yeah, I'd seen it some time ago. Fun guys. Wish them well.

     

    Also wish I could find more data but couldn't at the time. Very prevalent in the battery biz.
    26 Dec 2012, 01:45 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2099) | Send Message
     
    I needed to refresh my understanding of "bipolar lead acid battery" design, and found this a very helpful one page summary:

     

    http://bit.ly/RiMBRr

     

    I understand the advantage of reducing weight and ohmic resistance in the electron path. But it seems to me this design is still hampered by the sulfation devil as the primary failure mode, since sulfation in the negative active paste has not been eliminated. Am I correct?

     

    Has anybody been looking at using carbon negative active mass to replace the NAM paste in a bipolar design? A Bipolar PbC?
    26 Dec 2012, 03:47 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2099) | Send Message
     
    I found a paper about the testing of an Effpower bipolar battery in a Honda Civic Hybrid, replacing the NiMH battery:

     

    http://bit.ly/Vzu1Rf

     

    (it is a PDF download)

     

    It took some tinkering to make the electrical system designed for NiMH work with the PBA battery, but when they tested it and tore it down, here was the result:

     

    "The vehicle completed the planned 40,000 km but there were signs of battery deterioration. There had been two failures of the voltage clamp which resulted in over-voltage of the battery. It was also apparent that the temperature of the battery had been considerably in excess of that planned and the voltage clamp had not been programmed to allow for this. As a result there was increased chemical activity in the battery leading to gassing at elevated temperatures when the voltage limit should have been lowered. It was also apparent that the lower amount of cooling in the centre cells of the modules aggravated these temperature problems. Tear-down results confirmed dry-out and sulfation in the battery."

     

    So Sulfation is still a problem in a bipolar lead acid battery subject to high cycling.
    26 Dec 2012, 04:10 PM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (369) | Send Message
     
    The question that immediately came to my mind is what kind of DCA this design might have.

     

    Reducing weight is all well and good, but there are other issues, like the sulfation SMaturin mentioned, that might count more.
    26 Dec 2012, 04:17 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2099) | Send Message
     
    Another paper I came across in searching for an understanding of the common failure modes of bipolar lead acid batteries:

     

    http://bit.ly/WHpuz6

     

    The introduction has a useful technical review of PbO2 electrode chemistry and the constraints in a bipolar plate design.
    26 Dec 2012, 04:36 PM Reply Like
  • JohnM121
    , contributor
    Comments (359) | Send Message
     
    Have some sympathy for the trolls, folks. Do you realize that they eat with the same fingers they use type type with? It takes more than anti-bacterial soap can get that off.
    26 Dec 2012, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (430) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » Freshly cleaned and sanitized APC right this way.

     

    http://bit.ly/TjEbsE

     

    (Any discussion that is not related to Axion Power should not follow this link)
    26 Dec 2012, 01:03 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9597) | Send Message
     
    APH: Perhaps rather it should be: Any discussion not related to the energy storage sector -- or a little fun thrown in -- or the weather and how it affects the grid -- or basically anything involving electricity and the respective investment opportunities -- those should not follow this link.
    26 Dec 2012, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    WTB/jakurtz

     

    Respectively disagree.
    "...JP I must say, to me, you're on the edge of "Bigfooting" ..."

     

    "While I would truly hate to see you and your expertise go, I have no doubt we'll carry on sharing, teaching, and learning."

     

    "... the trolls did little to no harm ..."

     

    Safe to say JP provided the impetus for the blog and remain a high quality...I think the "..carry on..." would be short lived...which I believe is another goal of the TROLLS.
    I may not have many of them them here before deletion, but the same TROLLS have been a PITA and detriment to follow other articles JP has written comments.
    When they are exposed, fortunately with others starting to help JP out more, they cannot be dismissed easily on JP's other articles, but should be here.

     

    Another goal/trick via Maya's comment?
    "But in my email box were TWO messages with brand new IDs asking me how many shares us Axionistas own."

     

    thatdoc...agreed...
    2) Speed up the decision re trolls by reporting abuse quickly and often, so APH is advised. ...
    3) Do not respond to increasing trollism....

     

    BTW, I have noticed less postings by high quality commenters...IMHO due to their impatience with the TROLL games.

     

    Time too valuable...life too short.
    27 Dec 2012, 09:04 PM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (369) | Send Message
     
    mag:

     

    While reading your comment, it occurred to me that trollism might increase as impending news -- like HUB UL certification, ePower test results, trucking APU interest, NSC progress, behind the meter initiatives, PowerCube installations, BMW fleet testing, other automotive progress, and the coming raise -- grows closer or is announced.

     

    Trolls undoubtedly want to drive JP away, which would kill this forum in short order, and they undoubtedly want to bury good news and/or useful information posted here in a pile of crap, like they do on Brand X.

     

    I think we all agree that coming down fast and hard with the "Report Abuse" feature on this board is the best way to deal with trolls; and I will not be surprised at all if we have to exercise that option more often and sooner than we would like in the coming weeks and months.
    27 Dec 2012, 10:07 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    billa_

     

    Point taken.
    29 Dec 2012, 12:02 AM Reply Like
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