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  • Axion Power Concentrator 199: Jan. 17: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications 249 comments
    Jan 17, 2013 10:47 AM | about stocks: AXPW

    Latest News, Articles and Presentations...

    Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications -- Axion Power™ International, Inc. (OTC QB: AXPW), the developer of advanced lead­-carbon PbC® batteries and energy storage systems, announced today that it completed shipping its high-performance PbC batteries to Norfolk Southern Corp. (NYSE:NS), one of North America's leading transportation providers, for use in Norfolk Southern's first all electric locomotive - the NS-999.

    Axion Power shipped the last skids that comprised this battery order to NS in late December and the batteries will be used to power the NS-999 "yard switcher" locomotive. The switcher functions in the train yard where its responsibilities include moving rail cars and assisting in disassembling and assembling various train configurations. In parallel, Axion and Norfolk Southern continue to participate in the development of an energy system for "over the road" hybrid locomotives, that will be much more powerful units that would require significantly more batteries.

    The final shipment of batteries to Norfolk Southern means that approximately $475,000 in revenue, attributable to the eventual re-commissioning of the NS-999, will be recognized in Axion's results for the fourth quarter of 2012, according to Thomas Granville , Axion Power Chairman and CEO.

    "As we move into 2013, we are excited about the further unveiling of our PbC battery in our ongoing program with NS. The PbC properties that make our battery the chemistry of choice for 'all electric' and 'hybrid electric' locomotives - long cycle life, excellent cold temperature performance, fast charge and discharge capability, high charge acceptance, self equalization of charge in large string and in single battery cells, and above all, demonstrated safe operation regardless of temperature - all of these battery property advantages play well in a variety of other markets. Our new initiatives going forward include heavy trucks, charging station applications, residential energy and buffering and storage for wind and solar," Granville said.

    PR Newswire (http://s.tt/1yi7s)

    Axion Power Residential Energy Storage HUB Certified to UL, CSA Standards -- Axion receives UL certification and CSA Standards for their Residential Energy Storage HUB.

    "ePower's Series Hybrid Electric Drive - Unmatched Fuel Economy for Heavy Trucks" -- by John Petersen. Discusses the potential fuel savings for ePower's Hybrid electric drive for class 8 trucks using Axion's PbC batteries.

    "Axion Power - A Battery Manufacturer Charging Forward" -- by John Petersen. This is an excellent summation on Axion Power's history. It is a good starting point for introducing Axion Power to friends and family.

    13th European Lead Battery Conference, ELBC -- Sliderocket of John Petersen's presentation at the ELBC.

    Dr. Ender's Dickinson's Presentation on Axion's PbC -- Link to his slideshow at the 13th ELBC.

    Axion Power's 3rd Quarter Report and Press Release -- Seeking Alpha also published the transcript of the conference call here.

    RoseWater Joins Queen's University on Energy Storage Study -- Testing will determine the effects of residential energy storage systems on local power grids.

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    Axion Power Weighted Moving Average Prices and Volume:

    (updated thru 01/17/2013)

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    Axion Power Concentrator Comments Activity:

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    Links to important Axion Power research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites, created by APC commentator Bangwhiz. It is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one, including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website. The first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

    Axion Power Intra-day Statistics. HTL tracks and charts AXPW's intra-day statistics.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!
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    WARNING: This is a troll free zone. We reserve the right to eliminate posts, or posters that are disruptive.

    Enjoy!

    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

Back To Axion Power Host's Instablog HomePage »

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Comments (249)
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  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (367) | Send Message
     
    Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee
    17 Jan 2013, 10:49 AM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    Darn

     

    Way to go Kent!
    17 Jan 2013, 10:50 AM Reply Like
  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (367) | Send Message
     
    I was watching and managed to get first in less then a minute after APH posted the link. Both comments are stamped 10:49 AM! Is that a record?
    17 Jan 2013, 11:01 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    DUCK JON! Don't you see that you are under him while he is "Weeeeing!? ;-))

     

    HardToLove
    17 Jan 2013, 11:10 AM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    LOL HTL... good one
    17 Jan 2013, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • User462699
    , contributor
    Comments (102) | Send Message
     
    almost
    17 Jan 2013, 10:51 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Can't believe it. The booby prize once again.

     

    Just can't get ahead of that APH.
    17 Jan 2013, 10:57 AM Reply Like
  • Axion Power Host
    , contributor
    Comments (430) | Send Message
     
    Author’s reply » I usually wait until the weekend to update John's Graphs in the header but a lot has changed the past couple days, so I have updated them just now.

     

    Have a look.
    17 Jan 2013, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1908) | Send Message
     
    There are some very sexy curves taking shape in that graph.
    17 Jan 2013, 11:03 AM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    thanks!
    17 Jan 2013, 07:15 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1908) | Send Message
     
    I can only imagine, Edmund.

     

    But, seriously the 10, 20, 50 and 100 day price Avg's are establishing very shapely curves in the upward fashion...and so is Edmund.
    17 Jan 2013, 07:23 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    Since John has relocated to Florida from Switzerland, at what share price do the Florida holders of Axion ban together to build a Ski Florida to rival Ski Dubai? http://bit.ly/U3SzFP

     

    (paint still drying...)
    17 Jan 2013, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    But the paint is drying at a little higher price.

     

    Maybe the paint is almost dry?
    17 Jan 2013, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • tongas
    , contributor
    Comments (40) | Send Message
     
    list of Available Models of Medium- to Heavy-Duty Hybrid and Electric Trucks

     

    link not working so try
    http://bit.ly/V85ZQ4
    at the end of the article is the proper link

     

    Don't know how old it is and perhaps not up to date
    17 Jan 2013, 11:16 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Tongas, nice list but I don't think its comprehensive or up to date.
    17 Jan 2013, 12:56 PM Reply Like
  • tongas
    , contributor
    Comments (40) | Send Message
     
    shared it to show differents solutions used and types of vehicules,as it seems to be a global trend now.
    By the way the 2013 Green Truck Ride-and-Drive will take place in indiana,6/7 march 2013

     

    http://bit.ly/10hx1d3
    17 Jan 2013, 01:44 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Fans of ZBB and MXWL will be pleased to see that Crosspoint Kinetics will be active in the Green Truck Ride-and-Drive.

     

    Crosspoint Kinetics (Booth 5667)
    A Chevrolet 4500 cutaway chassis upfitted with a 12‐passenger shuttle bus body and equipped with a Crosspoint Kinetics S‐3000 parallel electric hybrid drive system. This unit utilizes ultra‐capacitors as an energy storage medium and is optimized for the rapid charge/discharge cycle commonly associated with transit bus and similar applications. Systems are available for Class 3–7 truck applications.**

     

    (HTL: Wrightspeed is also on the list, I believe using a turbine powered series hybrid)
    17 Jan 2013, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    D Lane: I think Wrightspeed is a comer - wish they were public.

     

    HardToLove
    17 Jan 2013, 03:40 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    I tend to agree. Do you own CPST and would you recommend it now?
    17 Jan 2013, 03:47 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    D Lane: I goot out a while back, expecting this downtrend. Currently targeting a re-entry in the (hopefully) $0.6x range, if it acts as I expect. Approaching Q reporting may cause me to enter a small position earlier as there is often a rise into the report.

     

    Each report for a *long* time has reported imprvements in margin, revenues, ... but not enough to turn a profit (other than the reported profit of +0 a while back). This year seemed to have a good chance of finally doing so *except* that Greenvironment PLC went BK and there's probably a couple million in there uncollectable until the lawsuit works its way through the court.

     

    This time seems risky due to that and because of the short activity. So I'm not committed to it.

     

    HardToLove
    17 Jan 2013, 03:54 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, HTL!
    17 Jan 2013, 04:05 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    imo, as a long-term watcher and investor (not in the last year - I made money on Capstone), there's something wrong with CPST. I can't put my finger on it. Mismanagement? PR fail? Product with insufficient distinction? If it weren't for the Obama mention, this stock would likely be toying with half the pps it has today.

     

    re' AXPW: Then again, we are no strangers to "broken stocks" around here, no matter what the last three weeks have brought us. Two announcements of import related to two not insignificant niches should have been worth more than a return to the mid-0.30s.

     

    Love the story, but we're still bottom-feeding.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:03 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    Edmund: IMO what went wrong at CPST was they got distracted from what initially started their improvement when the new management came in in 2007(?) - manage to cash flow. Grandiose visions began dancing in their heads (again - just like the old team) about the auto market (CMT-380) and other distractions. They paid mgmt partial bonus even when targets were missed. They didn't, for a while, vet their distributors well enough and had to cycle through a few that weren't productive.

     

    Add in that depending almost solely on distributors gives away some of their margin - need to have a really strong cadre of distributors to make up for that.

     

    I saw signs some quarters back in the CC that they may be regaining focus on managing that stuff better - but it will take time to see if that holds.

     

    With a second threat of de-listing in just a few years and pps where it's at, if they don't get the message now they never will.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    17 Jan 2013, 05:20 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    we're in agreement then, inasmuch as it appears that mismanagement is the postulated number one cause for the pus-tulation of the stock.

     

    I keep watching because I believe in the concept. But with the passing of time comes the ever-more-likely taxpayer-sponsored GE "breakthrough" that Obama the Elitist envisions ONLY HIS most ardent supporters (like GE) would bring to We The People. Nevermind the nod he gave Capstone.

     

    Until the sun powers everything through night and day, the best thing to burn efficiently is oil, not cash.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:48 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    A little detail on GS Yuasa Corp.

     

    Wee wee indeed eh HTL.;)

     

    Dreamliner woes spotlight Japan battery maker

     

    "Kyoto, Japan-based GS Yuasa Corp. said it began working Thursday with investigators probing the cause of recent problems with the 787. An overheated leaking battery prompted an All Nippon Airways jet to make an emergency landing on Wednesday, leading regulators in Japan, the U.S., India and Europe to ground the planes.

     

    Safety experts say the leakage of electrolyte from the ANA jet was cause for serious alarm because the very corrosive fluid can damage electrical wiring, components and even support structures for the plane's composite body.

     

    "The cause of the problems is unclear," said Yasushi Yamamoto, a spokesman for GS Yuasa. "We still don't know if the problem is with the battery, the power source or the electronics systems," he said."

     

    http://bit.ly/XhcZZu
    17 Jan 2013, 11:20 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    They need not worry. Some say that li batteries have been produced by the billions and are not an issue. (snarky comment alert)
    17 Jan 2013, 11:26 AM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (696) | Send Message
     
    I believe that the thought was that billions of Li batteries have traveled on aircraft in various devices such as laptops. That's all true. And I suspect that the vast majority are in the main cabin.

     

    Since the Li batteries are sealed and are part of the plane I wonder if they are housed in a pressurised compartment or in an unpressurised part of the plane? If unpressurised maybe there is a problem with the sealing technique that is used.
    17 Jan 2013, 11:56 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    Are similar batteries from GS Yuasa in other vehicles?
    17 Jan 2013, 12:56 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1215) | Send Message
     
    "The cells in the 787, from Japanese company GS Yuasa, use a cobalt oxide (CoO2) chemistry, just as mobile-phone and laptop batteries do.

     

    That chemistry has the highest energy content, but it is also the most susceptible to overheating that can produce "thermal events" (which is to say, fires).
    Only one electric car has been built in volume using CoO2 cells, and that's the Tesla Roadster. Only 2,500 of those cars will ever exist.

     

    The Chevrolet Volt range-extended electric car, on the other hand, uses LG Chem prismatic cells with manganese spinel (LiMn2O4) cathodes.

     

    While chemistries based on manganese, nickel, and other metals carry less energy per volume, they are widely viewed as less susceptible to overheating and fires."
    http://bit.ly/W2Q5Zb
    17 Jan 2013, 01:16 PM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (369) | Send Message
     
    Dealing with Li-ion's propensity to burst into flames requires such elaborate measures I am surprised the people who build these systems do it with a straight face.

     

    It is clearly a chemistry that is not suited to large-scale applications like cars and planes, IMO, because the systems needed to isolate, cool, shield, and protect the battery are complicated and bound to fail.

     

    Someone mentioned billions of laptops having flown on planes, but I think there is a difference. A 3- or 4-oz Li-ion battery is not a 1/2-ton Li-ion battery. The amount of energy you're packing around in the one can't be compared to that in the other.

     

    Is a smaller amount of explosive material less likely to explode than more of it?
    17 Jan 2013, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Billa,
    "Is a smaller amount of explosive material less likely to explode than more of it? "

     

    Al I know is that when more of it explodes, it makes a much larger hole in my pocket. :-)
    17 Jan 2013, 03:36 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    "I got a rocket in my pocket and the fuse is lit." :))

     

    http://bit.ly/10CoxhD
    17 Jan 2013, 03:46 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    I'm not sure you want a small one going off in your pocket either.

     

    It reminds me of the hillbilly vasectomy story where the doc gave his patient a cherry bomb and a Coke can, and then told him to light the cherry bomb, drop it in the Coke can and count to ten.

     

    After lighting the cherry bomb and counting to five on one hand, the patient stuck the can between his legs to free up the other hand.
    17 Jan 2013, 03:49 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Nice story. Is Hillbilly still a term of endearment or has it been replaced with Rednecks?
    17 Jan 2013, 03:52 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    When I first heard the story the patient was Cajun, but I've been out of the country long enough that I wanted to keep the ethnicity on the arcane side out of fear of inadvertently offending sensibilities.

     

    I feel a bit like a stranger in a strange land.
    17 Jan 2013, 03:56 PM Reply Like
  • Milhouse
    , contributor
    Comments (330) | Send Message
     
    That's Hill WILLIAM to you, sir...
    17 Jan 2013, 03:58 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (824) | Send Message
     
    These batteries would likely be in the belly of the aircraft between the passenger deck and where cargo is generally carried. The entire fuselage of the aircraft is pressurized. Large commerical aircraft generally operate at a pressurization equal to approximately 6k feet when at cruise. This pressurization changes as it climbs and descends.

     

    The more interesting thing to me is the process by the FAA on this. They are issuing an Airworthiness Directive without actually submitting one. That said, only 1 carrier has the 787 at this time, United with 6.
    17 Jan 2013, 04:28 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Mrholty
    There are two.
    One in the front near the pilot.
    One towards the back used to start the APU.

     

    <The 787 uses two identical lithium-ion batteries, each about one-and-a-half to twice the size of a car battery. One battery, in the rear electrical equipment bay near the wings, is used to start the auxiliary power unit, a small engine in the tail that is used most often to provide power for the plane while it is on the ground. The other battery, called the main battery, starts the pilot’s computer displays and serves as a backup for flight systems.>

     

    http://nyti.ms/UxTdue;
    17 Jan 2013, 04:42 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Tough to find a race, creed, or ethnicity to insult these days. Thank God.
    I find your use of the arcane, but still funny, word Hillbilly to be an excellent choice. Welcome Home.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:02 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Nice play on words Milhouse.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:02 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (696) | Send Message
     
    My wife has one in her Honda 125 motorcycle.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:13 PM Reply Like
  • chazsf
    , contributor
    Comments (633) | Send Message
     
    "Someone mentioned billions of laptops having flown on planes, but I think there is a difference. A 3- or 4-oz Li-ion battery is not a 1/2-ton Li-ion battery. The amount of energy you're packing around in the one can't be compared to that in the other."

     

    The Wall Street Journal reported today (1/17) that each battery on a 787 weighs 63 pounds.
    17 Jan 2013, 08:41 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Chazsf
    "I think there is a difference. A 3- or 4-oz Li-ion battery is not a 1/2-ton Li-ion battery. "
    There definitely is (there is a difference 63# and half a ton as well.)
    Probably that 63 pounds includes the metal case and wiring as well.
    40# as a guess.

     

    That said, it is serious enough for the FAA to ground the entire fleet.
    17 Jan 2013, 09:36 PM Reply Like
  • chazsf
    , contributor
    Comments (633) | Send Message
     
    Either 40 or 63 pounds sounds more reasonable than a half ton aircraft battery.
    17 Jan 2013, 10:15 PM Reply Like
  • Jon Springer
    , contributor
    Comments (4152) | Send Message
     
    Speaking from personal experience, aircraft are not grounded lightly, and there must be multiple incidents that indicate significant danger before aircraft are grounded.

     

    To put it in plain unpleasant terms...
    Sometimes one plane crash due to XYZ cause is not sufficient to ground aircraft, but two plane crashes due to XYZ cause will get the wheels of bureaucracy moving.

     

    In other words, the FAA is concerned about acting based on what might be a statistical anomaly and needs a burden of proof to be met before grounding planes. Airlines will usually act on their own sooner than the FAA will, in my opinion.

     

    As I said, this is based on personal experience... and the outcome for my family was that the FAA didn't intervene until it was too late for some family members.

     

    Just my opinion.
    17 Jan 2013, 10:50 PM Reply Like
  • CO3
    , contributor
    Comments (246) | Send Message
     
    From Forbes: "After the FAA required all 787 Dreamliners in the U.S. to be grounded, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) followed suit, telling all European airlines to temporarily suspend their 787 units. Beyond the FAA, the EASA, and Japan’s two major airlines, several others adopted the suspension, including LOT Polish Airlines, Lantam Airlines, Air India, Ethiopian Airlines, and Qatar Airways. Effectively, all 787 Dreamliners across the globe have been grounded."
    http://onforb.es/SSZFyR
    17 Jan 2013, 10:56 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    Thinking about no news on the ePower ...

     

    - Miserable failure,
    - Minor rework needed for another test,
    - Successful and negotiations need completion before PR,
    - Wildly successful & multiple negotiations between multiple parties occurring.

     

    I wish I had a clue.

     

    Other possibilities?

     

    HardToLove
    17 Jan 2013, 11:38 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    HTL,

     

    Lets be reasonable. The trucks were tested with AGM batteries and doubled the fuel mileage. The battery life and DCA ability of the AGM hurt the bottom line operating cost of the Hybrid.
    Putting in a PbC will not change the gas mileage. After the NS test I cannot forsee the PbC not passing all requirements.

     

    Now E-power being able to purchase enough PbCs at a price they want? I leave that up to TG. But if we have anything as shareholders its patience. But I'm not going to make up imaginary battery issues.
    17 Jan 2013, 11:47 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Just not enough data yet to be comfortable with a public statement. Perhaps they are waiting until they pass certain points in time when the issues with AGM began to rear their ugly heads.

     

    Plus they might be driving around with the trucker on his/her route making adjustments to the BMS.

     

    This would be my guess.
    17 Jan 2013, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    I don't view the lack of news as a concern. ePower owes us no news and we just have to be patient. I am optimistic.
    17 Jan 2013, 12:44 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Stay calm HTL. Anything that's worth doing is worth doing right, even if it takes a little longer.
    17 Jan 2013, 12:48 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    Futurist: "Lets be reasonable"

     

    Spoilsport! :-))

     

    I too can't see a path of failure. But in our "information society" I seem to be blind in one eye and can't see out of the other. So I didn't want to just ignore other possibilities.

     

    As to "battery issues", that was not one of my failure paths.

     

    HardToLove
    17 Jan 2013, 01:14 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    If we aren't worried about the battery then we are concerned about business failures.

     

    I see no reason to doubt management at this point.
    They have taken the product from a research project to a manufactured product.
    They have sold batteries to a fortune 500 Railroad
    They have sucked the poison out of the Exide snakebite
    They have managed to maintain a stable management team and Board in times of financial strain.

     

    Selling some batteries to a trucking company ought to be a piece of cake. Unless of course that trucking company wants to be a strategic partner.
    17 Jan 2013, 01:26 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    Furturist: my primary concern was ePower and their customers. I learned long ago that h00m0ns are quite creative in finding ways to fail even simple tasks.

     

    HardToLove
    17 Jan 2013, 02:01 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    HTL
    A previous comment by JP on Concentrator 194.

     

    "I expect that we'll be hearing more about ePower before Bwarneke's trip. I am in regular contact with Andy Claypole and he's asked me to keep things under my hat until ePower and Axion are ready to speak. "

     

    Add that to this one

     

    "Stay calm HTL. Anything that's worth doing is worth doing right, even if it takes a little longer."

     

    I'm going with they are tweaking it.
    and something like:
    Good things come to those who wait semi patiently.
    http://bit.ly/13J26VP
    17 Jan 2013, 03:55 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3934) | Send Message
     
    My understanding is that the PbC equipped ePower truck is Gen3 of the vehicle with the 1st using FLABs and Gen2 relying on AGMs. The web page that is no longer accessible described Gen1 trucks.

     

    Gen3 trucks could give slightly better mileage that either of the earlier versions by virtue of the PbCs lighter weight alone. Additionally, the PbC has a wider range of discharge without marked effect on battery service life and, if the ePower truck captures braking energy the PbCs higher DCA over AGM would support higher average fossil fuel mileage.

     

    JP has mentioned a time or two that Axion had suggested that fewer PbC batteries could meet the requirements that called for 52 AGM batteries. NSC apparently concluded fewer PbCs (864) would do a better job than the 1,080 AGMs originally designed into the NS999. Applying the same reduction factor (20%) found by NSC, a reconfigured ePower truck would use 42 PbCs instead of 52. Fewer, lighter weight PbC batteries in line with the NSC paring would reduce curbside weight of an ePower class 8 truck by ~1,900 lbs., enough to make a difference on fuel mileage (or increase cargo capacity).
    17 Jan 2013, 05:14 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    I'm not sure that the weight differential between PbC and AGM is all that significant in the context of an 80,000 pound GVW. I'd expect the PbC to offer better acceleration and hill climbing because of the pseudo capacitance of the PbC batteries themselves, but I think the biggest advantage will likely boil down to cycle life, which is miserable for the AGM batteries in Gen2. In any event, if ePower's claims of 10 to 12 mpg hold up the market could be impressive indeed.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:38 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    There's good math behind that calculus.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:55 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3934) | Send Message
     
    Dropping tractor weight by darn near a ton would reduce fuel requirements to move a cargo of any given size, period. It would be most noticeable when the tractor "deadheading" a trip anywhere. In work mode, lower tractor weight would enable hauling larger payloads with more revenue per mile. Whether the advantage is taken by the operator in the form of lower cost of operation or higher revenue per mile, replacement of AGMs with PbCs on ePower trucks stands to noticeably improve operating margins independent of battery life cycle considerations.
    18 Jan 2013, 10:23 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    JP: As I understand the physics, the capacitance is very real. Just as real as a dual carbon electrode supercapacitor such as Maxwell makes.

     

    The spooky part is exactly how that capacitance is combined with the electrochemical energy storage. I am still fuzzy on how the two interact.
    18 Jan 2013, 12:29 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    I'd be out of my depth trying to explain the chemistry, but all the lawyers need to know is that it does work. We can leave the detailed chemistry to the guys in white coats.
    18 Jan 2013, 12:32 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    I believe somewhere back in the archive someone provided a link to a paper that attempted to model a generic PbC's electrical behavior using basic circuit elements..... if I recall they ended up with a somewhat complex arrangement with about a half-dozen resistive and capacitive elements... anyone else remember something like that or did I dream it?
    18 Jan 2013, 02:16 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    I hope you're dreaming because I'm having a senior moment if you're not – and I'm far too young to start having senior moments.
    18 Jan 2013, 02:30 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    48, I don't remember hearing about such a model either.
    18 Jan 2013, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    ok, lemme dig. I usually download and save every linked document...(but now on a pc I've moved on from).... but not in any kind of organized system... so if I can find it I will try to post...
    18 Jan 2013, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    481086: I don't remember such a PbC electrical model mentioned. I am sure I would have remembered because I was, and still am, watching for such a model.

     

    That type of model you described, with lots of resistors and capacitors, could be used to describe a dual carbon electrode, electrochemical capacitor such as Maxwell makes. Such a model is critical if the application is for rapid charge or discharge.

     

    19 Jan 2013, 12:50 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    Well, it appears I *was* dreaming a little... the presentation I found was "modelling of high carbon ultrabatteries" by David Stone from the University of Sheffield and it had to do with the ultrabattery obviously... they did develop a circuit model for it but it doesn't look that useful.. I have the file but couldn't find the original link, though maybe now the actual name might ring some bells...

     

    Something else I found though, about combining Li-ion batteries and ultra-capacitors into hybrid arrangements for pulsed loads-- which might or might not have any meaning for the PbC--pretty chewy, but does give one an appreciation for how complex the behavior/ relationship likely really is...

     

    http://bit.ly/WcJYOL

     

    anyway, I should've checked first before opening my mouth...and sorry to all.. but SiHiBi's comment resonated with me and prompted the unfortunate outburst.. the PbC is one intriguing device for sure.
    19 Jan 2013, 12:52 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    The David Stone presentation was from my ELBC files:

     

    http://bit.ly/YeSjrq
    19 Jan 2013, 07:06 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Anyone ever thought that because we watch each and every movement like hawks that no one wants to let anything out at any time , for any reason, until every detail is finalized.

     

    "Drats, Hoisted on my own petard"
    17 Jan 2013, 11:50 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1826) | Send Message
     
    A watched pot never boils.

     

    Maybe we should pick a day (when the market is open, weekends don't count) where none of us go to the concentrator or look at the stock price.

     

    I know, never happen.

     

    D
    17 Jan 2013, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Futurist, I think it's been this way for some time, the watching. It's just seems different because the concentrators are unique. JMO
    17 Jan 2013, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    I agree iindelco,

     

    Just seems to me that our vigilance makes the wait time longer. Jst a thought. I know if I were TG I would feel as if I'm being watched by the uni bomber.
    17 Jan 2013, 12:46 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Futurist, TG is probably afraid to look at this board. It would be like opening the shades to his office and seeing 203 faces pressed against the glass. Well some more than others. lol

     

    Yep, Maybe explosive devices as well!
    17 Jan 2013, 02:06 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Denso making moves in NA to support SS.

     

    Also localizing, Damn that strong yen! Or is it good that they are weeing on the USD?

     

    http://bit.ly/Vr8FcN
    17 Jan 2013, 12:01 PM Reply Like
  • Milhouse
    , contributor
    Comments (330) | Send Message
     
    If I'm not mistaken, Denso is an OEM supplier to several Japanese car companies, such as Honda and Toyota. The fact that they are gearing up for s/s production in N. America is a very positive sign that the Japanese are indeed moving forward with s/s for the American market. Hopefully they supply whichever Japanese major is now considering PbC.

     

    Thanks for the link!
    17 Jan 2013, 12:10 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Denso is a big supplier to the traditional "Big Three" US auto makers as well. the old lines if Visteon-Ford, Delphi-GM, Denso-Toyota etc. are not as clear as they once were.
    17 Jan 2013, 12:21 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (843) | Send Message
     
    "I think that JCI building a retrofit on a "BMW" not a chevy or ford was a direct shot at AXPW. ......... To sum it up, JCI gave a competitive solution, a price, & a time line, and aimed it straight at us."

     

    >LT: My take exactly, and I like it. I find it encouraging JCI has the level of "concern" about Axion it appears they have.
    17 Jan 2013, 01:38 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    A bit more battery issue detail on the 787 saga:

     

    http://cbsloc.al/13IBCno

     

    "The lithium-ion design was chosen because it’s the only type of battery that can take a large charge in a short amount of time."
    17 Jan 2013, 01:45 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >481086 ... Sadly, a true statement. The four other contenders are either resource constrained, NiMH, or don't exist in the marketplace and two of those are too heavy for aircraft.
    17 Jan 2013, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    They sure are saving fuel now thanks to the best energy density cathode material. What a nightmare for the BA team on this one.
    17 Jan 2013, 02:38 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    A LOT of battery color in this video (linked from main SA page):

     

    http://bloom.bg/10ChlCb
    17 Jan 2013, 02:43 PM Reply Like
  • Milhouse
    , contributor
    Comments (330) | Send Message
     
    The guy in that video mentioned that not long ago, a 747 cargo plane crashed in the middle east due to a battery fire...so this goes beyond just the bms for the dreamliner, it sounds like.

     

    Scary stuff
    17 Jan 2013, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    The 747 crash was an exploding cargo rather than an exploding plane component.
    17 Jan 2013, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1908) | Send Message
     
    Thanks 48, that was a very important video to watch from bloomberg.
    "these batteries have problems and most of the folks in the industry thought we had a handle on them and apparently we do not have a handle on them."

     

    -This kind of thing, along with the past episodes at GM's Plant and the cargo plane catching fire not too long ago, can build up to have a very serious affect on investor sentiment both away from Li-ion and in search of alternative safer chemistry with high DCA. We keep seeing the need for the PbC type alternative over and over and over again (even if it couldn't work in this particular application).
    17 Jan 2013, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    jakurtz, Couldn't agree more....though I suspect and wouldn't be surprised if turned out to be a manufacturing defect confined to a relatively small batch... otherwise it could call into serious question their whole testing and validation regime, which in turn could have, uh, wide ramifications...
    17 Jan 2013, 03:18 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Frost & Sullivan just sent the following e-mail to their press list:

     

    "All Boeing 787's are grounded as a result of overheating batteries and has created multiple concerns as to all of the components within the lithium battery systems utilized. The "battery system" includes the batteries (packs) themselves that could be leaking, or the battery cells that are combined to constitute a battery pack. Other components include the battery management system (BMS) which is in place to monitor the overall health and status of the battery system, such as monitoring and regulating voltage and safe guarding against over charging. It has yet to be determined which of these components has failed and is thus responsible for these recent events.

     

    According to Frost & Sullivan Research Analyst Wesley Dean, the implications of the eventual determination of the responsible component has the potential of significant negatively impacting existing, converging and emerging industries employing this battery technology. This is especially concerning for those industries and applications recently gaining traction in transitioning from more traditional and proven battery chemistry solutions such as lead acid, nickel cadmium (NiCd) and nickel metal hydride (NiMH) to lithium based solutions. Examples include electric vehicles and back up power solutions (especially those associated with expensive and sensitive hardware such as in telecom and data center applications).

     

    The reality is that lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2) is used most frequently in electronics which require high energy density but lower power density. It is the LiCoO2 configuration that Boeing has selected and GS Yuasa has supplied. It provides increased energy density in foregoing greater safety characteristics. Other chemistries provide much higher power density with lower energy density. Some examples are lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4/ LFP) or lithium manganese spinel. However this distinction is often not recognized by the average consumer as consumers are typically aware, simply of "lithium batteries" There is no awareness or even the perceived need to understand the variations of lithium chemistries, or the applications associated with these variations.

     

    "It is this lack of distinction that threatens lithium chemistries as a whole and the strides that have been made in reducing battery costs. Such reductions are largely dependent upon increased volumes and economies of scale, " said Dean. "As the cost of batteries is often the most expensive component for certain applications, increasing the number of viable applications for various lithium battery chemistries is viewed by many as the main hurdle to clear in terms of making lithium based products more affordable over more traditional alternatives by way of achieving economies of scale."

     

    Please contact me if you would like to connect with Wesley Dean for an interview."

     

    It looks like this story may have some real legs.
    17 Jan 2013, 03:25 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    They usually turn out better if you can get to them.

     

    Another reminder not to leave lithium batteries in your checked luggage

     

    http://bit.ly/13IWbjA
    17 Jan 2013, 03:25 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    I wonder why the problems with the 787 batteries and haven't heard anything about other aircraft having the same problem. I'm just assuming they all are using Li-on batteries, but maybe some are using other chemistries, or more than likely from a different manufacturer of Li-on..
    17 Jan 2013, 03:53 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    This could be the time to short/ buy puts) on TSLA.

     

    The worry about the batteries plus the impending financial crisis of their balance sheet. Timing is everything.
    17 Jan 2013, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    NiCd has been the battery of choice in aviation for decades. The 787 was the first and may well be the last airliner to specify lithium-ion.
    17 Jan 2013, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Is NiCd significantly lighter than the PbC? My guess is that the PbC wouldn't do much for an airplane since there is not a lot of charge/discharge cycles going on. What I'm trying to say is this: It is difficult to create regenerative braking in mid-air.
    17 Jan 2013, 04:08 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3934) | Send Message
     
    I've slept many times since reading specs on Altair's lithium titanate battery but I'm sure I recall that it has a very high DCA. And, the power density was lower than some other lithium chemistries.

     

    Regardless of what BA/s solution turns out to be, it seems to me that Boeing's sequel to bad li-ion PR stands to work toward Axion's advantage in prompting more possible users and investors to take another look at the PbC or look at it for the first time.
    17 Jan 2013, 04:10 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    Yes, but with a very high degree of electrification there are bound to be wicked power transients. Also, I would say NiCd is definitely lighter, but IMHO not enough to be a showstopper. Volume sounds like a bigger hurdle though more so I would think for PbC than NiCd. But on the weight, all up we're probably talking about a couple of hundred pounds delta at the very outside, and even though yes it impacts the economics, on a couple of hundred thousand pound GW aircraft it's going to be surmountable. Still, agree with all that PbC for heavy aircraft would be a reach and a long road...
    17 Jan 2013, 04:16 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    " It is difficult to create regenerative braking in mid-air. " The one way I could see it is with large control surface deflection and return, IF that were electrically actuated... but that's a pretty big stretch..
    17 Jan 2013, 04:18 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Table toward the bottom. Not inclusive of PbC.

     

    http://bit.ly/UTq7nr
    17 Jan 2013, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    My queston would be this:
    What special properties does the PbC bring to the table?
    Nothing special for aircraft. The PbC charges and discharges rapidly many times. Figure a way to charge it in the air and a small PbC could do a lot up there. But for now. To heavy,to big, for nothing extra.
    Now if Safety and price mean anything?
    17 Jan 2013, 04:22 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    D-Inv.... I think that's a really key point... It seems to me in the crucial battle for mindspace that has been going on for like 8 years now, anything *but* Li-ion has just sort of been summarily dismissed by that portion of the public and investing community that has had any awareness of the battery space. It's been lithium this and lithium that for what seems like ever, and not without some good reasons, but still, it's been all but impenetrable these last few years.... maybe, finally, the giant PR perception wall will start to crack..
    17 Jan 2013, 04:49 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    John,
    "NiCd has been the battery of choice in aviation for decades. The 787 was the first and may well be the last airliner to specify lithium-ion."

     

    Thanks for that reply. Been busy and haven't been able to keep up. A big move is in the works: much as your own, but further away.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:25 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    And here I thought I was going to hold the long distance move crown for a while. Sometimes life sucks when you have a crowd this large and diverse.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:40 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    Have you read about the subs that follow an undulating pathway through the ocean to keep themselves in motion?
    17 Jan 2013, 07:59 PM Reply Like
  • CO3
    , contributor
    Comments (246) | Send Message
     
    Lead acid is very common in aviation.
    For small single engine piston aircraft (where weight savings is critical) it's the only chemistry available.
    NiCd is available for some turbines & avionics backup, but lead is still king.

     

    With a 113,000 lb. payload capacity (not including fuel) there may be room for PbC on the dreamliner.
    FAA certification is rigorous & time consuming, but it may end up being the only "safe" chemistry to handle the power absorption needed.

     

    It obviously won't affect AXPW much, but it will be interesting to see
    the inroads "our" battery technology makes in unexpected places.
    17 Jan 2013, 11:32 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    OT, but believe we were talking about this just a little while back:

     

    http://bit.ly/V8qgVY

     

    malware attacks on the grid not bueno...
    17 Jan 2013, 02:01 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    I don't know why the security forces of this country simply don't monitor this blog and use our ideas to build and save the grid of the future! :-)

     

    Yes, we did talk about this type of issue and why a micro-grid system would be easier to protect. Scary stuff when a simple USB drive can bring you down.
    17 Jan 2013, 02:23 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    Futurist: Also, the smaller the grid, the less reason to have it connect to the internet. The internet is the source of most attacks. Nasty place, the internet!

     

    I believe a small grid system might use RF (on the power wiring), for any internal communications necessary. If the micro-grid is initially designed for this type of communication there should be little problem with reliability.
    18 Jan 2013, 12:35 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    SHB: More importantly, the smaller the grid, the less incentive to attack it as the damage is less widespread. "Black hats" like big effects.

     

    Add in the more nodes they have to traverse, the more likely one of them has the protection that will stop the progression.

     

    HardToLove
    18 Jan 2013, 01:01 PM Reply Like
  • tongas
    , contributor
    Comments (40) | Send Message
     
    found this small presentation useful for newbie like me

     

    http://bit.ly/W3170o

     

    more FC orientated
    17 Jan 2013, 03:13 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Mauldin's newsletter just pointed out that the fiscal cliff tax bill extended a big tax credit for railroad track maintenance. One of his investment managers wrote:

     

    "The $165 million of free government money included in the fiscal-cliff deal designed to help the railways is going to free up capital that would have been spent on maintenance to purchasing more rolling stock of railroad cars."

     

    Their investment thesis is that it will benefit tank car companies, but I imagine that it might help pay for some batteries too.
    17 Jan 2013, 04:14 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    bee ute afull...gotta love it when a plan comes together... ;)
    17 Jan 2013, 04:35 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... Mauldin might be right but the big news for the rails that came out of the "Fiscal Cliff" legislation is this:

     

    "Section 45G tax credit for short line railroads to improve their infrastructure. Under the provision, short line and regional railroads are allowed to claim a tax credit for 50 percent of the cost of infrastructure improvements, up to $3,500 per mile."

     

    The condition of a the USA Short Line railroads rights-of-way is abysmal. Next on their list is how to reduce fuel consumption & lower motive maintenance expense. Here on my local short line they are presently having Altoona build 5 more gensets to add to the one they have. It is costing them a fortune but this rail improvement alone will save 5% in fuel. They would prefer to buy a battery operated loco or (their preference) a Green Goat if only there were a battery up to the job (and it's not like they don't know about Axion's PbC).

     

    This could change because delivery is scheduled out over the next 3-4 years. Now where the hell is NSC and when are they going to demonstrate to the short lines there is a solution? This market is far larger than NSC's switcher fleet and they are interested. Even more pressure to get this NS999 right.

     

    http://bit.ly/W38qFu
    17 Jan 2013, 04:35 PM Reply Like
  • Alphameister
    , contributor
    Comments (1431) | Send Message
     
    Warren Buffett gets lucky again!
    17 Jan 2013, 05:02 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Really,
    "Now where the hell is NSC and when are they going to demonstrate to the short lines there is a solution?"

     

    We now believe that NS is out to help the RR industry instead of themselves? You would know better than I but I figure they want the short lines to sell to them.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:11 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    But the question was good. Where is the NS999?

     

    I am a stockholder of Axion and I deserve to know. :-)
    17 Jan 2013, 05:12 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    "Warren Buffett gets lucky again!"

     

    Somehow that just seems inappropriate.
    17 Jan 2013, 06:28 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/UxQHUU

     

    another topic, but perhaps rich in implication for both powercube and oil-rig applications...
    17 Jan 2013, 04:34 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    Said implications include micro-turbines as alternates to diesel ICEs.
    High power capacity batteries, like the PbC, are ideal for filling the 5 minute hole that exists between the time the power fails, or browns out, and when the u-Turbines can spin up and produce rated power.

     

    I wonder if the power conditioning electronics internal to the u-Turbine could be integrated with the power inverter (DC to AC) needed by the PbC battery? That could save a significant amount of money for a combined battery-generator system.
    19 Jan 2013, 12:53 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3934) | Send Message
     
    Good info. Thanks, shb.
    19 Jan 2013, 01:04 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    Lithium is earning a reputation and, outside of their niche in hand-tools (cell phones included), damn near dead, imo. Once the eggheads in industries (yes, plural) start getting this, AXPW will soar.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:08 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    That Lutz interview is priceless:

     

    "Car companies need to get their minds on that: electrifying [a smaller car] that uses virtually no fuel anyway and then lumping a huge premium on it to cover the battery costs is nonsensical. Why bother?"
    ----
    "Frankly," he says, "unless that customer is philosophically, religiously or economically affiliated to buying an electric vehicle, then they can’t be convinced."

     

    Thanks to the original linker (but I forget who....)

     

    http://bit.ly/XgXHUH
    17 Jan 2013, 05:16 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    48,

     

    "Frankly," he says, "unless that customer is philosophically, religiously or economically affiliated to buying an electric vehicle, then they can’t be convinced."

     

    If he had said "economically challenged" we would have had to negotiate a royalty from Lutz for using JPs words.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:22 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    Fut, it's all of a piece. More and more, I seem to hear and read things now that eerily resemble things I remember first encountering like two or three years ago in John's articles. In my mind it's only a matter of time before his first guest appearance on CNBC... probably to be coincident with tesla's inevitable crash and burn.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:32 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    "crash and burn", literally. ick.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:58 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    48: NOT ON CNBC - He won't get to finish a sentence or express a complete thought!

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    17 Jan 2013, 05:59 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9598) | Send Message
     
    Actually, the announcement about NSC purchasing batteries from Axion did appear on CNBC's website:

     

    http://bit.ly/WbJUjg
    17 Jan 2013, 06:44 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Maya, It's nice to make it into the "Big Top". Even if you're just a flea on one of the larger animals backs.
    17 Jan 2013, 06:50 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    I don't know about anybody else, but I'm getting tired of the flea's eye view of the monkey's butt.
    17 Jan 2013, 07:07 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Thanks John! That worked great for me.

     

    Not a fan of used bananas myself. Or the sight of the back door of the recycling center. 8-p
    17 Jan 2013, 07:25 PM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1826) | Send Message
     
    Thing is, buyers interested in the Cadillac Escalade aren't interested in vehicle electrification.

     

    So it would have been a flop anyway.

     

    Lutz must know this - the guy is just an attention-seeking car salesman.

     

    D
    18 Jan 2013, 06:34 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3934) | Send Message
     
    "Lutz must know this - the guy is just an attention-seeking car salesman."

     

    Lutz was GM management pre-Government Motors. 'Nuff said.
    18 Jan 2013, 09:34 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >D. McHattie ... Even as "Big Iron" owners aren't the least bit concerned about fuel economy (most of the time), they are an excellent consumer to experiment on because they have the dollars. A Hummer owner wouldn't mind paying up for a drivetrain that got them 15-25 mpg. They just don't care about that facet of the auto.
    18 Jan 2013, 09:44 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    For the last few days I've been driving a friend's Escalade XS-500 and have to say that it's a sweet ride. I can't imagine buying one, but it's a nice loaner and more fuel efficient than his Bentley Continental.
    18 Jan 2013, 10:06 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2167) | Send Message
     
    I've always thought start/stop made more sense on big engined cars than econoboxes. The big engine idling wastes a lot more gas. Turning off the engine at stop lights is just "common sense" and quieter, not some bureaucratic edict to make driving less fun. Less idling of the engine probably lets it last longer, too. So long as it has an override so you can hotrod if you really want to, it should be a no-brainer.
    18 Jan 2013, 10:19 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2097) | Send Message
     
    I always liked the 4-6-8 technology that was developed in the 1970's, it worked. I see no reason that 4-6-8 and SS couldn't work together for excellent fuel economy with the option for power when needed.
    18 Jan 2013, 11:14 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Stilldazed, It's out there. GM is putting it on their next generation of full size pick-ups. Chrysler has variable displacement (cylinder deactivation) on some of its models including pick-ups. And there are others using the technology. Far easier today with modern electronics, electromechanical systems and direct injection.
    18 Jan 2013, 11:31 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2097) | Send Message
     
    ii,
    Thanks for the reply with the good news. I agree that with the modern engine systems it would be much easier to implement than in the past. I hope they combine the two technologies soon (with Axion inside), my 2002 Ford Ranger is getting a little long in the tooth.;-)
    18 Jan 2013, 11:42 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    Stilldazed: It occurs to me that there's another benefit to the tech when combuined with s/s - less starter load. So a smaller starter, less draw on the SLI battery, less recharge time, longer life.

     

    HardToLove
    18 Jan 2013, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2097) | Send Message
     
    HTL,
    Yep, one of many advantages.
    18 Jan 2013, 12:09 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Stildazed, A common theme in all these activities. Progressing toward power on demand. When you're using it have it available and when you're not turn it off. It requires the right system controls to do it but it's coming. The 4 wheeled micro grid. A central power generator or multiples and infinitely variable load.

     

    You're going to have to be an engineer to fix the things though if they don't use a ton of sensors back to the puter to monitor everything The back yard mechanic is going to be pretty much history.
    18 Jan 2013, 12:17 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >iidelco ... The shade tree mechanic has been an endangered specie for the past 30 years ... but we're still here. They're still just a bucket of bolts with better tolerances. One of the things myself & several others hope is that Axion can, in time, pay for a Chevy Volt just so we can tear it apart and figure out why it doesn't work the way it should.

     

    A generator that can't or won't recharge the battery .... please tell me how that makes sense. It can be fixed.
    18 Jan 2013, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2097) | Send Message
     
    ii,
    New applications of technology always complicate things until an engineer that follows the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle gets involved. Some auto makers want to draw business to dealer mechanics (and parts departments) and rely on complicated solutions. Others see the benefit of simple solutions and systems for younger and poorer buyers in the long haul (second and third owners). To me (I turned a wrench for Chrysler until 1995), this is one difference between a good car and a throw away car.

     

    The junkyards are full of cars that are too complicated or expensive to fix (too much to go wrong). But the well thought out cars with simple solutions keep on going.
    18 Jan 2013, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (369) | Send Message
     
    SD:

     

    "Simple" is my battle cry against Li-ion batteries today. Kluging around to keep them from blowing up is a joke.
    18 Jan 2013, 02:37 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    DRich,
    "A generator that can't or won't recharge the battery .... please tell me how that makes sense."

     

    Because it's more efficient to drive the vehicle from the generator when the batteries are depleted and charge the batteries when you get to a plug. To drive the vehicle and continue charging the batteries as well at the same time you need a larger ICE and larger generator, and it's less efficient.
    19 Jan 2013, 09:34 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    I built my own EV, my batteries don't blow up, and I don't even have an active management system other than a battery charger that shuts off before they are full. I'm not sure what world you live in where EV and hybrid batteries explode on a daily basis but it's certainly not the real world.
    19 Jan 2013, 09:39 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >jpr ... I tend to doubt that a Volt would need a larger anything. There are many trade-offs in efficiency by running the battery down in such a short electric drive capability, but I can't address them without tearing the system & software down. It just sounds like something fun to do even if we're wrong.
    19 Jan 2013, 10:03 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    I don't think any of the plug in hybrids charge the pack up while driving, other than what regen provides. When the pack is depleted they just use the generator to power the motor, or drive the wheels directly. I'm pretty sure that's because the physics involved in generating enough extra energy to recharge the pack while driving plus conversion losses will hurt efficiency, nothing can be changed in software or engineering to change those physics.
    I agree it would be fun to tear one apart, but I already know how to improve the efficiency, remove the ICE and put in a larger battery pack.
    20 Jan 2013, 09:45 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >jp ... Our definitions of "Efficency" are diametrically opposed.
    20 Jan 2013, 02:13 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Jrp3
    "I already know how to improve the efficiency, remove the ICE and put in a larger battery pack."

     

    A larger battery pack does not much if any increase the efficiency.
    With a grid that is 35% efficient it merely changes the efficiency loss to the production of the energy source.
    While it does reduce the fuel costs
    It massively increases the up front costs to save a bit back on the fuel costs.
    Also it reduces the utility of the vehicle.

     

    GE To Drop Pledge Of 25,000 Plug-In Purchases By 2015
    http://bit.ly/U30LVz
    <It was always going to be a tall order to fill; one company, 25,000 plug-in vehicles.
    It was in 2010, that General Electric said that they were going to replace the bulk of their fleet with plug-in electric vehicles by 2015, and at the time the Chevrolet Volt was heralded as being a major piece of this revolution, and according to Deb Frodl, the division’s chief strategy officer, it still is. Just not as big.
    The problem stems from the people getting the vehicles simply do not all want small, one function, sedans, they want some utility – trucks, vans, SUVs.
    “It’s the demand of our customers,” Ms. Frodl said. “There are so many technologies out there and our customers need a variety of technologies in their fleet today, not just one. We’re not picking winners and losers.”
    So now, about 10,000 purchases into the program, GE has started to add other alternative fuel vehicles into their fleet mix of 30,000 corporate vehicles, like natural gas-powered pickups and propane-fueled vehicles.>

     

    If the 10,000 purchases of Plugin cars is correct.
    I expect half or more were bought in 2012.
    Of the total 53,172 Plug in cars sold in 2012 10% or more were bought by GE. Who is now moving on.
    The bulk of those purchases were expected to be Leafs.
    2000 Volts announced in Feb 2012 and 2,000 ford Energi announced 2 months ago but probably will be finished in Feb 2013.
    Say half bought 1,000 at EOY.
    I can't find any other announcements. That would leave about 7,000 Leafs bought in the last 2 years.
    19,493 - 7,000 = 12,493 bought by others 64%
    I wonder what this will do to Leaf sales?
    20 Jan 2013, 03:52 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    With respect to my labeling AXPW a "broken stock" in this Concentrator: That's a bow to a viewpoint I don't really hold personally. Sure the first money I put in (and the second et.al right on into the double digits of buys) did not pan out yet, but that doesn't mean the product is broken or the stock is busted. After all, "broken" and "busted" are a world apart. How many stocks have each of us seen "Heal themselves"?
    Keep the faith, sell something else if you must (seriously, who's 100% in here? I'm ~30% and I'm guessing that's a big number amongst a group as intelligent as I have come to believe Axionista are): This is not a "broken" stock, it's a unrealized masterpiece.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:28 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >Edmund Metcalfe ... I admire the enthusiasm, but truth is Axion (AXPW) is a broken stock ... pure & simple. The story of the chart has virtually nothing to do with the company business activity, management, future prospects or product. The stock & company live in 2 different universes and they are not even parallel. It is the definition of "broken stock".

     

    It's nothing that any number of factors couldn't turn around in a big hurry. I'm pinning my hopes on Customer No. 1 showing up sometime soon but that is only one option.
    17 Jan 2013, 05:56 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    Edmund: I use the "broken stock" term to reflect my belief that the company and product are sound and it is a market problem. Usually that's coupled with, "not a broken company".

     

    HardToLove
    17 Jan 2013, 06:01 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    I prefer to think of Axion as a stock that's suffered mightily because bad things happened to some very big holders. \

     

    The bad behavior of the duelling bankruptcy trustees in early 2010, the portfolio meltdown at Quercus, the death of Winner and the management changes at SS and MH were not Axion's fault, but the selling pressure they generated did become Axion's problem.

     

    Unfortunately, the pressure has been so intense for so long that most of the current stockholders have very modest expectations.

     

    http://bit.ly/10CGo8b
    17 Jan 2013, 06:10 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    Caveat accepted.

     

    I guess what I was getting at was the idea of "unrealized" value.

     

    Was the "Mona Lisa" ever "broken"?
    17 Jan 2013, 06:15 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    I think the Quercus timing was huge. I appreciated their "mercy" in selling, but IMO perhaps "mercy" is not an appropriate market function.
    17 Jan 2013, 06:21 PM Reply Like
  • User462699
    , contributor
    Comments (102) | Send Message
     
    Well, I have to admit to not being 100% in - only 99.73% but I've got the faith.
    17 Jan 2013, 06:23 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    I have been through multiples of cycles of similar sort and I don't consider myself in any way a momentum trader. It takes time for a product to take hold - just look at Apple - they had great product and obsessed fans (appleionistas?) - and in their case it took even more time before their stock caught the eye of traders/investors (I'm guessing MSFT made a mint on their hand-out at the time).
    I'm not going to argue the definition of a broken stock: I'll stand post at the door between "broken" and "busted", though. Cost of the investment? hmmm. Sure, maybe I come out just slightly better or worse than the guy who "played it safe" - HAHAHAHA, who dat really? - but look at all the fun they missed here!

     

    Pure and simple for me: We live once. We get gifts of pain or pleasure, both can be rewarding.
    17 Jan 2013, 06:08 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    I moved to the Mac platform in 1988 and never looked back. There were some very scary years there when it looked like my favorite computer company was going to tank. I'm delighted to see that the OS is finally gaining ground.
    17 Jan 2013, 06:13 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    John: When I visited my sister recently I had to work on her Mac. Didn't take long and I got to a command line.

     

    Their OS is based on BSD UNIX, and so I was pleased that I could do all the things I wanted to without have to learn all the "intuitive" (according to her) things that made no sense to me, for the first few days until I learned their GUI.

     

    Since it's "UNIX inside", I also think it's a great OS.

     

    And once I got used to their GUI stuff, it was all right too.

     

    HardToLove
    17 Jan 2013, 06:20 PM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    John,
    My son derisively refers to Mac users as an example of Darwinism. I got a laugh out of that.
    17 Jan 2013, 06:32 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Mac is the perfect software for a guy like me who doesn't want to know how his computer does the work as long as it does the work extraordinarily well. Every once in a while I'm forced to try and do something on somebody else's PC and the experience reminds me once again why they'll pry my Mac from my cold dead hands.
    17 Jan 2013, 07:03 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2235) | Send Message
     
    When the runner broke the monitor in the famous Apple Superbowl ad they should have shown Steve Jobs behind it. Topsiders use Windows and Linux. Unfettered freedom - no approval from headquarters required to install and use it. I find using a Mac just as constrictive as you do using Windows. For true freedom HTL has the ultimate computer - but he's fluent in its use - Linux. Rock solid and no virus bs,
    19 Jan 2013, 10:15 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Tata, cheerio, sayonara....

     

    Pickin winners. Even though most of the electric delivery vehicles in GB are LAB based.

     

    Tata pulls plug on production of Ace Electric CV

     

    http://bit.ly/VsJ8jx
    17 Jan 2013, 06:14 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    II - are you selling all your stake in AXPW?!?!
    17 Jan 2013, 06:19 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    Edmund: He's doing a play on words re "TaTa Motors".

     

    HardToLove
    17 Jan 2013, 06:29 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Edmund, No. I was referring to the article I posted. I'm quite excited about Axion but the time to market is, I suspect, going to temper somewhat the reward we are going to get IMO.

     

    I sure hope TG can find someone in industry that shares our thoughts on this one soon. This would change everything.

     

    Darn NSC is just a little too slow. I think if we had 6 months of NS999 under our belt and an OTR loco in the womb things would be a little brighter right now.
    17 Jan 2013, 06:29 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    Sounds like Tata couldn't find a Li-ion battery they could use/afford. Interesting.
    18 Jan 2013, 12:49 PM Reply Like
  • VictorG45
    , contributor
    Comments (41) | Send Message
     
    Dreamliner: Boeing 787 planes grounded on safety fears
    "The FAA said that airlines must demonstrate battery safety before flights can resume."
    http://bbc.in/Xf1l0C

     

    What a black eye for lithium ion and Boeing. I wonder how long the fleet will remain grounded.
    Regards,
    Victor
    17 Jan 2013, 06:21 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Victor, I have some battery supplier thoughts on your timing question. I figured the road would be fairly long and complex. Then they will have to correct the issue and get certification again. Never worked in Aerospace but this is ugly.

     

    Boeing 787 problems: Battery manufacturer weighs in

     

    "Bloomberg reports that Japan-based GS Yuasa, which makes the lithium ion batteries at the center of the Dreamliner's problems, says it could take months to determine whether the issue is limited to the battery or involves the jet's entire electrical system."

     

    http://bit.ly/SaHLpP
    17 Jan 2013, 06:35 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    Just throwing this out there as I prepare to get some much-needed cold fresh air after drowning a "Double Bastard" ale: I hope my son returns from Afghanistan - he probably left today.
    17 Jan 2013, 06:29 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    That's good news Edmund - here's to his safe return.

     

    HardToLove
    17 Jan 2013, 06:34 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Edmund, I'll raise a glass to your son and all the others that sacrifice so much for this country.
    17 Jan 2013, 06:43 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1908) | Send Message
     
    The stories continue. "Dreamliner-like Batteries Raised Concern"...."Over the past decade aviation regulators have recorded dozens of incidents in which lithium batteries in consumer products have overheated or caught fire on planes or at airports. Stricter international safety rules kicked in this year to tackle the hazards of shipping such batteries by air."

     

    http://on.wsj.com/VsS603
    17 Jan 2013, 06:48 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9598) | Send Message
     
    jakurtz: New shipping lithium batteries regulations did occur on January 1, 2013, as I learned today after going into the United Parcel Service website:

     

    http://bit.ly/10CMbL3
    17 Jan 2013, 06:54 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Call me anything you want. Just call me.

     

    Solar Energy Storage Market to Touch Nearly $2 billion in 2018, Demand for Solar in Latin America Soars

     

    "Companies discussed in this report include: Abengoa Solar, Acciona, AES, Altair, Ambri, Axion,..."

     

    http://bit.ly/VNiEdC
    17 Jan 2013, 07:38 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2389) | Send Message
     
    BA stock discussed starting at 6 minute mark here on CNBC's Fast Money: http://bit.ly/V9aNF3

     

    spin today is that it's a battery problem in 1 "batch" that can be fixed.

     

    We'll see.
    17 Jan 2013, 08:14 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2389) | Send Message
     
    More Boeing ... from Bloomberg:

     

    Jan. 17 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. officials and Boeing are investigating whether defective batteries from the same batch caused incidents in two 787 Dreamliners that triggered the plane’s worldwide grounding, according to two people familiar with the incidents. Alix Steel reports on Bloomberg Television's "Market Makers." (Source: Bloomberg)

     

    http://bloom.bg/13LsAHl

     

    Jan. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Robert Crandall, former chief executive officer of American Airlines, talks about electrical issues plaguing Boeing Co.'s 787 and the Federal Aviation Administration’s decision to ground the aircraft. They speak with Tom Keene and Sara Eisen on Bloomberg Television's "Surveillance." (Source: Bloomberg)

     

    http://bloom.bg/13LsAHm
    18 Jan 2013, 08:34 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    Sounds like a charger that was defective and didn't shut off, or a defective BMS which didn't allow the charger to shut down properly.
    http://bit.ly/UDskVR

     

    " It's likely that burning lithium ion batteries on two Boeing 787 Dreamliners were caused by overcharging, aviation safety and battery experts said Friday, pointing to developments in the investigation of the Boeing incidents as well as a battery fire in a business jet more than a year ago."
    19 Jan 2013, 09:43 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    somewhat interesting reading... a couple of small EV companies suing DOE when they lost out to tesla and fisker for gov loans and, bonus, also had their IP spilled to competitors...

     

    http://bit.ly/WcEDYV
    18 Jan 2013, 02:12 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    In light of the suit against DOE, do we really want Sandia testing the PbC? Can they do more to destroy their credibility?

     

    "XPV and Limnia also allege that the Department of Energy leaked their patented technology to competitors General Motors and Ford.

     

    XPV and Limnia transferred so-called “protected information” to the Department of Energy through Sandia National Laboratories multiple times between 2002 and 2009. The information included patented energy-storage and pressure membrane technology. The department was bound by law to keep this information confidential.

     

    Nevertheless, an XPV representative touring Sandia in September 2008 spotted a presentation for General Motors that incorporated Limnia’s energy-storage technology.

     

    “When Sandia scientists Chris Moen and Daniel Dedrick were informed of this discovery, they admitted that there might be ‘a problem with that’ and suggested XPV and Limnia contact GM for a ‘partnership’ so that ‘there was no acrimony,’” the suit states.

     

    A Sandia spokesman said Sandia does not discuss “pending litigation as a matter of policy.”

     

    XPV and Limnia also discovered late last year that Ford had incorporated their patented technology into its own plans without their knowledge. The DOE is “the only plausible conduit through which Ford obtained” Limnia and XPV’s patented and legally protected information, according to the suit."
    18 Jan 2013, 03:03 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Sandia has wanted to test the PbC for years and for reasons I never fully understood Axion held back and required conditions that Sandia didn't like. While I wasn't in that particular loop it wouldn't surprise me to learn that many of the conditions had to do with IP protection. I think that's also one of the reasons that Axion is reluctant to do too much with the ALABC which is supposed to fund projects that will benefit the entire industry instead of a single manufacturer of a highly proprietary product.
    18 Jan 2013, 06:03 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    Sandia seems to be having problems with confidentiality.

     

    http://bit.ly/Wd7PyS

     

    I just thought they were part of DOE, but are managed and operated by lockheed.
    18 Jan 2013, 07:07 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (673) | Send Message
     
    Sounds like Axion's management has had the wisdom to avoid IP minefields in many different forms.
    18 Jan 2013, 07:15 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Protecting the core IP has always been a high priority for Axion and I don't expect that mentality to change.
    18 Jan 2013, 07:42 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Whenever a customer is ready to order the PbC in quantity, I am sure that Axion will supply the batteries. When others want the PbC, a small company like Axion has to be very careful.
    18 Jan 2013, 07:56 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1826) | Send Message
     
    If the information goes to Chinese universities then its theft.

     

    If it goes to ford or Nissan or our other campaign supporters then, guess what, our friends are now your business partners.

     

    I just hope there is still room in this system for a company that doesn't play this bs game.

     

    D
    18 Jan 2013, 08:19 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    1/17/2013: EOD stuff partially copied from intablog (up shortly).
    # Trds: 73, MinTrSz: 100, MaxTrSz: 30000, Vol 439978, AvTrSz: 6027
    Min. Pr: 0.3505, Max Pr: 0.3757, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.3620
    # Buys, Shares: 36 168300, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.3635
    # Sells, Shares: 36 268678, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.3611
    # Unkn, Shares: 1 3000, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.3590
    Buy:Sell 1:1.60 (38.3% “buys”), DlyShts 29800 (6.77%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 11.09%

     

    On the traditional TA front, price broke above the resistance of the rising channel I've been tracking, hit my expected resistance of $0.37 and slightly beyond, retraced into the mid-$0.35 range and then staged a reasonable push back up into the close to finish the day at $0.36. I believe this move has some strength, based on the various VWAPs in summary above. The low honored my new short-term rising support, and it appears that in the next couple days price will either go below that line or above the rising trading channel resistance, which rises only about a penny a week.

     

    Recall that we appeared to have a “break out” of the rising trading channel confirmed 1/11-1/12 and then price moved back into that range 1/15, the next trading day. On 1/16 we then see the 614K, and another 100K, in two block trades go at $0.35. My working thought is an MM was accumulating shares to fill a big order (dollar value very near a quarter million) and was moving price around to accomplish that.

     

    This might be supported by the fact that on the day of the sale the VWAP buy was lower than the VWAP sell, one of only 18 occurrences, out of 237 trading days, since I began tracking. I need to go look at those other occurrences and see if any pattern is suggested.

     

    Anyway, the next day we have price move right back up on decent volume. In conjunction with all that, various oscillators I watch were affected in different ways, since they look at different things, and I don't think I can read much into the mixed signals they are sending ATM. The MACD lines are still in a bullish stance, but the histogram is weakening a bit. I'm suspecting this is a temporary condition, based on the trading I discussed above.

     

    On my experimental stuff, in summary, it seems things are returning to normal with volume back near typical ranges and daily short sales starting the normal push back up from the extreme lows.

     

    Average trade size is back to what seems mid-retail size while the buy:sell is below norms for now. Since price hit one of my resistance points ($0.37) I presume this is normal profit-taking. The buy:sell averages are moving in a positive direction though, suggesting that this “top” may be short-lived. We do need to keep in mind though that the 614K the other day trade was a buy and would skew the shorter-term buy:sell and trade size averages.

     

    My experimental inflection point calculations have been whipsawed, just like the other metrics. This caused them all to roll over, in what appears to be a start down, but I think we need to allow a couple days of more normal trading to get a reliable(?) read from them.

     

    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.

     

    HardToLove
    18 Jan 2013, 08:15 AM Reply Like
  • User432382
    , contributor
    Comments (80) | Send Message
     
    Found a couple articles about German automotive OEMs agreeing to this 48V 'supply network' back in the summer of 2011 that I thought were interesting.

     

    http://bit.ly/WdiZUc

     

    http://bit.ly/13LuxmV
    18 Jan 2013, 08:44 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    User432382: From the second article, "Unlike "dumb" lead-acid batteries, this battery will be implemented as Lithium ion battery with significant effort for the management system".

     

    I suspect they may be rethinking this, not just in light of Boeing, but travails of the automotive stuff using Li-ion, (AONE), "enhanced" LABs being offered, etc.

     

    HardToLove
    18 Jan 2013, 09:09 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    The problem with long term planning in any industry is that you have to start with a complete set of core assumptions. One of the critical assumptions involving all forward looking lithium-ion battery talk is the "much better, much safer and much cheaper" mythology that dominated the last few years. Now engineers are having to rethink many of those issues as they learn there is no Santa Claus and the widely anticipated "Deus ex machina" hasn't materialized.

     

    http://bit.ly/HLa8ok
    18 Jan 2013, 09:35 AM Reply Like
  • User432382
    , contributor
    Comments (80) | Send Message
     
    I found this Advanced Lead Acid Battery Consortium (ALABC) prospectus for 2013-2015 in which they also discuss the 48V system and how important it is for the lead acid industry: "If we fail to accept this opportunity to show the effectiveness of the lower
    cost advanced lead–carbon batteries in the 48V system, we will effectively be handing this
    promising market to the Li-Ion battery community."

     

    http://bit.ly/13kHGSR
    18 Jan 2013, 05:27 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    In the words of Tom Granville:

     

    "The undeniable cost-efficiency of PbC batteries compared to lithium-ion batteries is becoming better understood by potential end users, many of whom had formerly assumed that lithium-ion would be the adopted battery of choice, in spite of its very high cost and its significant safety problems."

     

    From Axion's 11/15/2012 Q3 press release.
    19 Jan 2013, 02:01 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, User43. More and more, things are coming our way.
    19 Jan 2013, 02:05 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Well we're back at it again. The showdown.

     

    I think yesterdays false start took a little wind out of the sails. Plus it's Friday with Monday off.

     

    http://bit.ly/WdvhvU
    18 Jan 2013, 10:14 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Here come the town criers.

     

    Powerful Chemical Cocktail, With a Drawback

     

    http://nyti.ms/WLMCKV
    18 Jan 2013, 10:40 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: The article contains a very good explanation of the range of Li-ion failure mechanisms. I am impressed. Much less hand waving then usual.
    18 Jan 2013, 01:10 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    The thing that nobody wants to understand is the interplay between failure rates at the cell level and failure rates at the battery pack level.

     

    The Tesla Roadster used 6,831 cells for a 56 kWh pack. Since the cells are not physically and thermally isolated from each other, one catastrophic failure could easily set off a chain reaction that will spread to other cells like lighting one end of a book of matches.

     

    Tesla boasts that the cells they use are made in the billions every year. If you assume a catastrophic failure rate of 1 in 100 million at the cell level, the odds of a catastrophic failure in a 56 kWh battery pack fall to a measly 1 in 14,639.

     

    Big battery packs are one place where the laws of probability really work against you.
    18 Jan 2013, 01:31 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2235) | Send Message
     
    Been catching up on the concentrators and I have pinned all my hopes on rail. It is the only area with any momentum and the market is huge. As DRich informed me, a PbC prototype was tested by the Russians a jillion years ago on the Trans-Siberia railroad and lasted 4 times longer than the LAB's they previously used. They also had enough power to cold start the engine versus restarting them and then shutting them down on a schedule given the frigid weather. Bodes well for NS's eventual test results.

     

    Axion as it is currently capitalized and with its small size is just not a viable supplier to the auto industry IMHO beyond test quantities (which may include fleet testing). The right strategic partner could change all that so we will see if Axion can find one.

     

    NS's mobile cranes battery issues led me to believe it might present an opportunity for the PbC. I'm sure Axion is all over that possibility.

     

    Currently retired living on social security with a little bit of cash savings, and 100% all in on Axion from a bad decision I made on the DOE contract possibility that went all lithium ion. I could work of course, but not up to the energy demands of my prior professional experience, and if it is for peanuts I'd just as soon relax and enjoy myself. I'm living without much of a net under me if disaster strikes, but watching my mother suffer bed-ridden for four years I don't know if I would want one.

     

    I could add substantially to my underwater position but not until we hit .60 or better. Not willing to throw good money after bad. I've already come early once. I want to hear the noise of a great celebration before I do anything further than lick my wounds and consider acceptable losses if I should lose my patience.

     

    So far, I'm hanging in there hoping we do not have another return to the mid-20's or lower. The next capital raise might cause that - I don't know. Sure would like some good news to offset that fear.
    18 Jan 2013, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4600) | Send Message
     
    For 2013, you are probably correct. Thanks for the post and good to hear from you.
    18 Jan 2013, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3934) | Send Message
     
    "... I have pinned all my hopes on rail."

     

    Good to hear from you, BW.

     

    :-) Plan for the worst, hope for the best, eh.

     

    I think many agree with you re-automotive prospects in near future. But trucking gives us two near term shots on goal with prospects that could equal or exceed RR. Those shots are a) motive power and b) auxiliary power units.

     

    Outlook for sales to RR sector likely will be better defined in NSC quarterly CC on Jan.22
    18 Jan 2013, 12:39 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    Hang in there Bang. Big, life changing events can knock you back. Deep breaths and all that.

     

    Each week I am a bit more confident that Axion will become a large and successful enterprise. But slowly. Sigh.
    18 Jan 2013, 01:16 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2235) | Send Message
     
    Thanks D-Inv. Forgot about the APU's because I think an announcement was expected that never came. Perhaps I am mistaken on that - don't know. E-Power is a nice possibility and because they will be selling in kit form they could ramp sales pretty quickly. However, they are small and that will mean time.
    18 Jan 2013, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Hey Bang, Nice to see you. Don't make a stranger of yourself but take advantage of the more moderate climate you're in again.

     

    Don't worry about dropping in every day. We'll talk this thing to death for you! ;-))
    18 Jan 2013, 01:48 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2235) | Send Message
     
    "Don't worry about dropping in every day. We'll talk this thing to death for you! ;-))" LOL

     

    Wonder if Brand X will start accusing JP of moving to Florida to sell swamp land as prized home site lots?

     

    Nice stopping by. I feel close to a great many Axionistas who have befriended me over the years, particularly during a very long and trying time. Your support meant the world to me. Best wishes to all of you and let's hope 2013 is a charm. If not, we'll still all be friends.
    18 Jan 2013, 02:03 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Who knows what that contorted entity on brand x will come up with. Just another example of where lithium didn't work!

     

    Yeah Bang, We'll leave poor or rich unknown at this point but richer for the experience. Good people here.

     

    I'm still thinking it'll work out on the money side but as usual never exactly how you'd expect.

     

    Automotive, Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
    18 Jan 2013, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • Edmund Metcalfe
    , contributor
    Comments (1476) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/UWtHx8
    http://bit.ly/W5GnFp ticker NYSE:OMG

     

    I know I was hating on Lithium yesterday, but it was beer-thirty bluster: I'm biased and I know it.

     

    From what I can divine the F-Li-C (my "spelling") is a sweet battery amongst the many lithium chemistries. Haven't found the investment vehicle I want, though. Nor the money I'd need.

     

    Back to what matters: It was nice to see that 614K go off without moving the pps! And the ask stayed solid all day from what I saw (via Fidelity's ActivePro). All in all, AXPW just spent a good two months in recovery, IMO. And there's lots of catalysts still to come. I'm optimistic, I feel like selling my manganese and cobalt and buying some more lead.

     

    Can't do 100%, but I'm pulling for bangwhiz: A scholar and a gentleman with a set of rocks.
    18 Jan 2013, 09:33 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2235) | Send Message
     
    If only I had brains to go with my rocks I would have been truly successful! I worked as a consultant for a year leading the business development and merger acquisition effort into a new market, 100M dollar subsidiary of Halliburton.

     

    It was a very risky effort with slim chance of achieving the client's goals. When people in the company asked me who I was I once replied "I'm the corporate Kamikaze."

     

    Worked out for my client within the company. Halliburton liked the effort so much they promoted him to President of the company!
    19 Jan 2013, 10:29 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17304) | Send Message
     
    Well, now I can't keep quiet. When your "rocks" were mentioned I had the urge to mention how smart they were too.

     

    IMO, they are.

     

    Good to see you around again.

     

    HardToLove
    19 Jan 2013, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1506) | Send Message
     
    I was just thinking about the PbC and price for start/stop and came to the conclusion that Ford went the cheapest route, but that BMW and another OEM are moving ahead and I'm sure they already have a pretty good idea what the price will be.
    18 Jan 2013, 12:09 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    200 and FOUR Followers. The steady climb continues...
    18 Jan 2013, 12:28 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Why Boeing's 787 Dreamliner was a nightmare waiting to happen

     

    http://bit.ly/13MfJVe
    18 Jan 2013, 12:35 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2389) | Send Message
     
    UPDATE 2-Johnson Controls outlook disappoints, shares drop

     

    http://reut.rs/XJD5Xc
    18 Jan 2013, 01:11 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8855) | Send Message
     
    Thanks WTB, As I indicated before Europe is a difficult place to flex capacity in. Very expensive and this will hurt companies like Exide and JCI in the region as they see automotive unit sales compression. I'm seeing signs of far more final assembly plant closures than has been the case for some years. Far more expensive to do this in Europe than in the States. I'm thinking GM is sorry they didn't write off their European operations in their BK.
    18 Jan 2013, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29573) | Send Message
     
    Collectively JCI's results were disappointing but its Power Solutions unit was strong as a garlic milkshake.

     

    Batteries sales increased by 4% and represented 16.3% of sales. They also accounted for a whopping 49.5% of JCI's segment income. The ramp up of JCI's recycling facility in South Carolina and construction of a second Chinese battery plant are on schedule.
    18 Jan 2013, 01:46 PM Reply Like
  • Milhouse
    , contributor
    Comments (330) | Send Message
     
    Argonne lab taps Johnson Controls for battery development

     

    http://bit.ly/XJI4ap

     

    "She also mentioned that the goal of JCESR has been succinctly summarized in the slogan “five-five-five:” development of an advanced electric vehicle battery with five times the energy density and power of the existing batteries, costing one-fifth of those and ready in five years."

     

    Coming up with a slogan is probably a lot easier than meeting that goal. I won't be holding my breath.
    18 Jan 2013, 01:55 PM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1826) | Send Message
     
    I give that 5-5-5 a chance of about 0%.

     

    D
    18 Jan 2013, 02:10 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2511) | Send Message
     
    Good thing, too, Milhouse, or your face will turn purple and your hair yellow. We talked about their fitty fitty fitty goal several Concentrators back--we've seen the wild dreams come and go before.
    18 Jan 2013, 02:18 PM Reply Like
  • jcrjg
    , contributor
    Comments (172) | Send Message
     
    John,

     

    Do you think JCI's results give us any guidance on Exide's quarter? I had asked about Exide's prospects a week or so ago and had gotten some interesting responses. You said that you thought they were looking good for the near term. So I held on to Exide for now and also picked up more Axion but am still watching Exide and would appreciate any thoughts if JCI's results give us any additional information to consider.

     

    Thanks
    18 Jan 2013, 02:54 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2235) | Send Message
     
    Jcrjg> Exide reminds me of a government agency. They all come to work everyday but nothing seems to change in terms of results.
    18 Jan 2013, 07:54 PM Reply Like