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  • Axion Power Concentrator 202: Jan. 24: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern 313 comments
    Jan 24, 2013 10:15 AM | about stocks: AXPW

    Latest News, Articles and Presentations...

    Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications -- Axion Power™ International, Inc. (OTC QB: AXPW), the developer of advanced lead­-carbon PbC® batteries and energy storage systems, announced today that it completed shipping its high-performance PbC batteries to Norfolk Southern Corp. (NS), one of North America's leading transportation providers, for use in Norfolk Southern's first all electric locomotive - the NS-999.

    Axion Power shipped the last skids that comprised this battery order to NS in late December and the batteries will be used to power the NS-999 "yard switcher" locomotive. The switcher functions in the train yard where its responsibilities include moving rail cars and assisting in disassembling and assembling various train configurations. In parallel, Axion and Norfolk Southern continue to participate in the development of an energy system for "over the road" hybrid locomotives, that will be much more powerful units that would require significantly more batteries.

    The final shipment of batteries to Norfolk Southern means that approximately $475,000 in revenue, attributable to the eventual re-commissioning of the NS-999, will be recognized in Axion's results for the fourth quarter of 2012, according to Thomas Granville , Axion Power Chairman and CEO.

    "As we move into 2013, we are excited about the further unveiling of our PbC battery in our ongoing program with NS. The PbC properties that make our battery the chemistry of choice for 'all electric' and 'hybrid electric' locomotives - long cycle life, excellent cold temperature performance, fast charge and discharge capability, high charge acceptance, self equalization of charge in large string and in single battery cells, and above all, demonstrated safe operation regardless of temperature - all of these battery property advantages play well in a variety of other markets. Our new initiatives going forward include heavy trucks, charging station applications, residential energy and buffering and storage for wind and solar," Granville said.

    PR Newswire (

    Axion Power Residential Energy Storage HUB Certified to UL, CSA Standards -- Axion receives UL certification and CSA Standards for their Residential Energy Storage HUB.

    "ePower's Series Hybrid Electric Drive - Unmatched Fuel Economy for Heavy Trucks" -- by John Petersen. Discusses the potential fuel savings for ePower's Hybrid electric drive for class 8 trucks using Axion's PbC batteries.

    "Axion Power - A Battery Manufacturer Charging Forward" -- by John Petersen. This is an excellent summation on Axion Power's history. It is a good starting point for introducing Axion Power to friends and family.

    13th European Lead Battery Conference, ELBC -- Sliderocket of John Petersen's presentation at the ELBC.

    Dr. Ender's Dickinson's Presentation on Axion's PbC -- Link to his slideshow at the 13th ELBC.

    Axion Power's 3rd Quarter Report and Press Release -- Seeking Alpha also published the transcript of the conference call here.

    RoseWater Joins Queen's University on Energy Storage Study -- Testing will determine the effects of residential energy storage systems on local power grids.

    Axion Power Weighted Moving Average Prices and Volume:

    (updated thru 01/18/2013)

    (click to enlarge)

    (click to enlarge)

    Axion Power Concentrator Comments Activity:

    (click to enlarge)
    Links to important Axion Power research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites, created by APC commentator Bangwhiz. It is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one, including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website. The first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

    Axion Power Intra-day Statistics. HTL tracks and charts AXPW's intra-day statistics.
    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!
    WARNING: This is a troll free zone. We reserve the right to eliminate posts, or posters that are disruptive.


    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

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Comments (313)
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  • Gold?


    Edit: I'm beginning to think I need to get a life (outside of the APC).
    24 Jan 2013, 10:19 AM Reply Like
  • Silver
    24 Jan 2013, 10:26 AM Reply Like
  • Bronze Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
    24 Jan 2013, 10:28 AM Reply Like
  • Congeniality 8^(
    24 Jan 2013, 10:37 AM Reply Like
  • 17.2K traded at $0.30, low so far AND, the support of the OLD rising trading channel, and bounced right back up to $0.32x-$0.33. The $0.32x is just below the *potential* NEW faster rising trading channel mentioned in the post for yesterday ~$0.33 ATM). It rises 10% faster than the old support, ~$0.011/wk vs. the old ~$0.01/wk.


    We'll want to see what holds and how strong going forward.


    24 Jan 2013, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • CORRECTION: The ETrade panel missed some $0.30 trades as they went by. Confirming with ADVFN trades screen shows the trades at the $0.30 price was 49.5K.


    24 Jan 2013, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • At EOD, ADVFN no longer shows 49.5K, but 17.2K. And this does agree with ETrade's time & sales panel. So for once it looks like ADVFN got it wrong while ETrade was right. Usually it's the other way around.


    24 Jan 2013, 06:20 PM Reply Like
  • AXPW just took a dive down to $.32... Low today of $.30.


    I've been anticipating a pump fake that would chart like this, during a low volume period. My theory calls for a quick recovery, and perhaps even a later spike today around $.35. This sort of thing would indicate a wide gap between sellers and support orders.


    We can also expect the recent influx of short cycle traders to depart early in this process...
    24 Jan 2013, 10:44 AM Reply Like
  • triple,


    Can you explain to me why you feel that the volume (low) supports your theory of a wide gap between buyers and sellers? I sense your right but can't explain it to myself.
    24 Jan 2013, 10:52 AM Reply Like
  • Looked like a market order sell somewhere in here to me ...


    $0.3200 800 OTO 10:33:57
    $0.3000 3,800 OTO 10:33:07
    $0.3000 13,400 OTO 10:33:06
    $0.3100 5,000 OTO 10:33:00
    $0.3200 3,300 OTO 10:32:57
    $0.3220 15,000 OTO 10:32:54
    $0.3300 14,000 OTO 10:32:52
    $0.3300 5,000 OTO 10:32:49
    $0.3300 1,000 OTO 10:32:48
    $0.3300 2,000 OTO 10:32:48
    $0.3300 1,000 OTO 10:32:48
    $0.3300 26,500 OTO 10:32:46
    $0.3306 12,500 OTO 10:32:45
    $0.3310 2,500 OTO 10:32:45
    $0.3305 13,250 OTO 10:31:36


    Sometime when you go fishing you get lucky :-)
    24 Jan 2013, 11:20 AM Reply Like
  • To be more clear, I was anticipating a low volume period immediately before the selling spike (which was not itself low volume). This spike occurred because there was no firm support north of $.30 for that sort of volume. Potential buyers are lurking rather than aggressively buying.


    I believe there is stronger support in the $.2x's, though perhaps primarily to be found around the potential new funding target of about $.25.


    We could see a series of these events, interspersed with low volume periods, until the short attention span theatre season ticket holders depart in disgust.


    Those with no stomach for a return to the $.2x's are likely to join them. We may also see longs trim their positions or take profits on trading blocs acquired at the recent lows...


    But I expect some volatility as support chases low selling spikes back up to the median around $.33-.35.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • I'm not sure I understand why you think the "potential new funding target is about $.25? I haven't seen this from the Company.
    25 Jan 2013, 08:29 AM Reply Like
  • It's my personal estimate, that's all.
    25 Jan 2013, 09:01 AM Reply Like
  • An estimate that strikes me as pretty good without prior Axion announcement(s) disclosing documentable real progress toward commercialization.
    25 Jan 2013, 10:41 AM Reply Like
  • Selling spike today confirms $.2x. $.30 support is really not there to speak of.


    It all depends on the timing of the next round of funding, now. Last year Feb 1 was the announcement, with an average captured from early January and December creating the offer price of $.35.
    25 Jan 2013, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • Miracles guys, miracles. They happen all the time, ye of little faith.
    (I am such a bad investor)
    25 Jan 2013, 11:16 AM Reply Like
  • I am too. I think attitude is important, though, and understand that some folks here may well be players in a game where it is to their advantage to have the price go down, and this shows in the tone of the posts. It' s like watching a game of craps admonishing the folks with money on the pass and come, and point "you know, I think a seven is headed our way"! Bad karma.
    25 Jan 2013, 01:13 PM Reply Like
  • I don't think it's to anyones advantage except lurkers who have not bought for the stock to go down. Sure, trading blocks come & go, but it's the core holding that counts.
    The smart ones bail on rallies and sell trading blocks, but they want it to go higher...not lower.
    Lurkers won't step in until the capital is raised and the dust settles. We can't blame them either.
    25 Jan 2013, 01:29 PM Reply Like
  • Tony,


    I appreciated his efforts but I used to get annoyed when HTL started talking about reversion to mean and downtrend continuing and leg down and whatever else a year and a half ago. I thought that can't possibly be beneficial for us who are all looking at this as long-term investors and would like to be in the black sooner rather than later. But since then I have come to accept it is his way of evaluating what *might* be happening, and in the end I don't think it has any real effect. TB talking about the potential offer price is another example it is how he evaluates and understands his investment., but he definitely always gives it straight. I see him do it with all the stocks he is in not just Axion he is usually looking at the worst case scenario, so no surprises. The unfortunate thing is he is right more often than not. (I know you are not talking about them, I am just using them as an example)


    In fact, i started thinking a few months ago if I was cynical and showed how much this stock sucked the price would actually move up because people took it as bearish sentiment so a good time to buy.


    This investment has been deeply and psychologically educational for me on so many levels, I would almost say my losses so far have been a good educational investment, better than college, but I would still like to make the money back. I know nothing anyone says on here has a real direct effect on the stock price good or bad. It is all merely personal observations. Even if the majority of us started saying, "I am selling, I give up." (god knows I want to) I think right at that time some hedge fund would be buying up our shares faster than we could get rid of them.


    ( if this has nothing to do with what you were saying just ignore me)
    25 Jan 2013, 01:44 PM Reply Like
  • I also was annoyed by that when I first joined the APC (should be around my anniversary now). But now I've settled in that this is a long game, and there are players besides us. So I know any commentary is really meant for helping Axionistas, not meant to drive down the price in a self fulfilling prophecy. I've made my peace with what I've invested, and so whatever is coming will come when it comes.
    25 Jan 2013, 02:10 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks, guys. I appreciate the emotional support. Like you, I'm long for the long haul, and do not mean to imply that TB is a bad person - I guess I just get depressed when people point out the obvious. Frankly, if anyone's style is to buy at .25 and sell at .33 repeatedly, then I admire their timing ability - I usually do the opposite. :-)
    25 Jan 2013, 02:46 PM Reply Like
  • This dive is tough especially during a week where the the rest of the market is enjoying five year highs and coming off a week, I for one, thought we were leaving the woods...I know the definition of insanity. The good news is we have held above .30 and this could be our consolidation of non-longterm holders who just wanted to get out from under the Axion burden and next week we begin rebuilding again. Passing up through .35 should be easier the next go-around. Most of the long-term Axion guys are in mine and Ranma's camp, we have made our peace and just passing the time. The next financing round be damned at whatever price, I will be here and so will Axion. We could be three months out from it but if nobody is getting that it doesn't help any.


    It boggles my mind when we look Axion, a tiny nano-cap company that just sold their advanced battery to a first tier Railroad for an all electric locomotive, who had the opportunity to test any battery they wanted for the past four years and they chose the PbC and still people aren't getting it. Whatever, right.
    25 Jan 2013, 03:21 PM Reply Like
  • Axion's been at this a lot of years now. Representing a sizable chunk of people's lives for those involved from the beginning. And some pretty high-caliber people too it would seem. I just can't see them investing this much time, effort, and stamina if it were all just a mirage. And I can't believe they're just hanging around for the monthly paycheck either. The thing's for real. But storage and batteries is proving to be one hell of a tough business sector, especially for a small independent player. Even one this dogged. Just look at all the other casualties. Total roadkill everywhere. Yet Axion survives. With healthy prospects. And an array of healthy, meaningful customers. But customers who move like glaciers. We're all waiting for the big spring thaw. It looks like this year for sure. But it's maddening. It's freaking maddening. Yet that's the deal.
    25 Jan 2013, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • The funniest aspect of hard times is that they crush overly optimistic investors and replace them with a grimly determined bunch who know what they bought and why. When good things finally happen, the grim brotherhood is always surprised at their good fortune. They tend to be persistent holders because they want the upside to pay for the pain.
    25 Jan 2013, 03:54 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz


    "This investment has been deeply and psychologically educational for me on so many levels, I would almost say my losses so far have been a good educational investment, better than college, but I would still like to make the money back."


    Well said...I share your sentiment.
    26 Jan 2013, 12:15 PM Reply Like
  • Hmmm nickel.


    Saft opens Bangalore factory to support India's growing battery market


    "The new 75,000 sq.ft factory, which will be operated by the AMCO Saft India Limited subsidiary, will produce state‐of‐the‐art, nickel‐based, rechargeable batteries, effectively doubling Saft’s local production capacity for industrial battery systems."


    "This additional capacity will enable Saft to address the growing demand for energy storage to support mega power plants and photovoltaic (PV) renewable energy schemes, as well as meeting the back‐up power needs of defense and oil and gas industry customers."


    "The investment focuses on the booming urban transport system (metro) of every city with over three million inhabitants, as well as high‐speed train projects. The local metro system in Bangalore already features Saft batteries and they are found in metros throughout India including Delhi, Chennai, Jaipur and Mumbai. Saft has also delivered batteries for a number of India’s locomotive projects."

    24 Jan 2013, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • Cramer covers rail earnings this week, and focuses on providers of tank cars ... selling like hotcakes to move our glut of crude.

    24 Jan 2013, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • Here is an interesting read, it throws around some storage numbers and some Lithium hopium as well.


    "Why solar PV without subsidies is a “no-brainer” for households"

    24 Jan 2013, 11:05 AM Reply Like
  • KentG,
    Thanks for the link. Hopium abounds.
    "There are two principal pieces to the equation – the falling cost of solar and battery manufacturing on one side, and the rising cost of grid-based electricity on the other. "


    Not bad if you know nothing about the industry. Why falling prices on Solar Panels? Because there is a glut due to low demand. when demand increases so will the price.
    Battery prices to keep falling? Really? 10% per year?
    Grid based electric to keep going up? I'm not sure with the move to cheaper NG that is true but we will see. Anyway good luck to them with that 100% rooftop coverage w/ PV's.


    BTW, even though they say the PVs are unsubsidized in Germany all should realize that there is a grid surcharge on everyone in Germany to pay for renewables. And that charge is only the beginning of what they will be charged to undo the damage renewables have caused to the grid over there.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:30 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks Kent and Futurist!


    Regarding renewables and the grid:
    "solar power changes the way power markets work. At low levels of penetration, it reduces demand for peak power plants, thereby making power less expensive overall. But as the share of solar power increases, photovoltaics increasingly becomes disruptive for the margins of conventional energy providers, who see their medium load power being offset.
    In 2012, Germany got less than five percent of its electricity from PV; nonetheless, solar power production regularly peaks at around a third of power demand on sunny days. Germany is therefore looking for ways to spread that power production across the day."
    Germany to promote solar power storage next month
    24 Jan 2013, 02:46 PM Reply Like
  • I just got off a phone call with Dr. Buiel who will be joining our happy little group as a semi-active participant and will, within the bounds of propriety and confidentiality, answer some of the thornier technical questions that I normally punt on.


    I trust that he'll be welcomed warmly.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:10 AM Reply Like
  • I will prepare the fatted calf.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:14 AM Reply Like
  • I can not imagine any Axionista that would not Warmly welcome such a wealth of technical information.


    May I be the first to warmly welcome Dr. Buiel. And thank you for your work on the PbC Dr. Buiel. Please join us soon.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:17 AM Reply Like
  • John, Thanks for taking the initiative to invite such a well regarded industry expert to join the concentrators. What an opportunity for this group.


    I'll also join in on the early welcome.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • A red carpet with rose petals scattered upon it should welcome him!


    "Coming To America" anyone? Great flick by E. Murphy.


    24 Jan 2013, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • Excellent!
    24 Jan 2013, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • That's great news, John!


    One of the ways we all can welcome Ed to the APCs is by following him. Guess who is the most recent follower of the APCs, #208?
    24 Jan 2013, 02:16 PM Reply Like
  • John,
    Thanks for inviting Dr. Buiel and thank you Dr. Buiel for participating.
    24 Jan 2013, 02:28 PM Reply Like
  • Hi everyone.


    Excellent news: Dr. Buiel will be with us. Your input, knowledge and experience will help us better understand the technical aspects of the PbC Tech. and in general all the energy storage sector.


    My respect and you are welcome-Carlos
    24 Jan 2013, 02:40 PM Reply Like
  • As I can confirm. Rose petals that have been stepped on and petals on a bed can and will stain carpeting and sheet. Your early Valentine's Day factoid.


    24 Jan 2013, 10:11 PM Reply Like
  • Adds a nice flavor and scent to tea as well.
    24 Jan 2013, 10:52 PM Reply Like
  • Thank you for the warm reception.
    25 Jan 2013, 08:46 AM Reply Like
  • >I trust that he'll be welcomed warmly.


    Jakurtz has the best rejoinder!
    All I can think of is a virtual rendition of "For Hes a Jolly Good Fellow" once Dr. Buil pokes his head in.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:18 AM Reply Like
  • That's good news. Real facts versus speculation. Wonderful. I'm not technical so I will pose no questions to him, but we've got some great technical types here that can ask good questions. Looking forward to what I may learn and his participation.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • "Cessna stands behind lithium-ion batteries, plans roll-out on four jets after Q2"

    24 Jan 2013, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • Anyone know why MXWL is jumping today?
    24 Jan 2013, 11:26 AM Reply Like
  • Maxwell took a 50% beat down in late April ($17.88 on 4/1/12 to $9.51 on 4/30/12) when Wedbush reported that their Chinese partner was double dealing, that set up a downtrend that hit double bottom in the $6.50 range (July and November). They've been steadily recovering since November and have a recent pattern that resembles Axion's.



    A few days ago they did a presentation at the Needham conference in NYC that probably went a long way toward rebuilding confidence.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:42 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks John. Thanks to thoughts you've shared and advice from Tom Konrad, I own a bunch of MXWL, all of it in the black.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:55 AM Reply Like
  • It would not surprise me to see Maxwell make up all of the ground it lost and perhaps overshoot a bit. Their earnings were limited for a while by their construction of the new plant in Phoenix but that should be operational soon (if it isn't already) and the partnership with Exide should also give them a PR boost although I have my reservations about broader acceptance of the battery-supercapacitor combination.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:59 AM Reply Like
  • Maxwell clearly has a profitable business mainly selling modules for hybrid buses and cells for wind turbine pitch control. They also sell a module into the automobile industry through Continental for voltage support during cranking for start-stop cars.


    Maxwell is building a new plant in Arizona. Lishen, the maker of Maxwell's 350F cells for wind turbine pitch control systems, pulled the customs information and found out they are installing equipment to produce 350F cells themselves. There seems to be no intent to replace Belkin that produces the 3000F cells for hybrid bus modules largely because they bring the cells back to Maxwell to assemble into systems (no threat). However, Lishen was getting more involved with selling cells to Chinese wind turbine pitch control systems and I think this threatened Maxwell. In any event, Lishen and Maxwell could be on a collision coarse. If Lishen starts making and selling their own cells, this could hurt Maxwell's business.


    Another potentially dangerous issue is that Maxwell stole the patent rights to the modules for hybrid buses from ISC. ISC went bankrupt but before that ISC and Maxwell had a clear agreement that said all things module belonged to ISC and all things cell belongs to Maxwell. A clever European figured this out and snatched up ISC in bankruptcy. If he enforces the agreement, Maxwell could have to pay royalties. Watch out for that bomb shell...
    25 Jan 2013, 03:21 AM Reply Like
  • This is about lead-acid batteries.
    "Investigating Automotive Battery Explosions"

    24 Jan 2013, 11:28 AM Reply Like
  • Haven't seen this one posted. If posted, sorry for extra post. They use Li-lon.


    About Echo Automotive, Inc. (ECAU)
    Echo Automotive, Inc. develops technologies and products designed for cost effective conversion of existing vehicles into highly fuel-efficient hybrids and plug-in hybrids. The key to Echo’s strategy is the bolt-on nature of its solution that introduces little or, in some cases, no additional points of failure, making it very low risk compared to competing solutions. The Company launched EchoDrive™ in late 2012, as an integrated system to convert existing fleet vehicles to electrically assisted powertrains offering fleet managers an immediate low cost alternative to the high capital investment of relatively unproven, all-new electric vehicle designs. The slow pace of development and introduction, combined with high costs for these new designs has produced an unparalleled opportunity for EchoDrive™. The extensively engineered retrofit solution exploits proven vehicle platforms and readily available components while offering absolute system redundancy as the original engine power is continuously available with, or without the electric assist. To find out more please visit
    24 Jan 2013, 12:23 PM Reply Like
  • >thotdoc ... Knowing absolutely nothing about the company (and little interest to do so), it sounds quite similar to the approach of ePower. Both are good for short term business models ... if successful in launching and might spur the more capital intensive players into action along more practical pathways.
    24 Jan 2013, 12:48 PM Reply Like
  • My ultra quick review of the company video tells me that this is a minimum of a 3 year payback on light fleet vehicles like cars and vans. They are using lithium batteries and an electric motor. Since most fleet owners don't keep vehicles much over three years I don't get the business plan.
    I would have serious questions as to how this affects the warranty from the manufacturer.
    I would have some lithium safety concerns.
    I would have resale concerns.


    But it is a regenerative braking and plug in combination hybrid.
    Interesting concept.
    24 Jan 2013, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • They have had a strong rally in the past two days - any indication as to why?
    26 Jan 2013, 01:58 AM Reply Like
  • Since it appears that Ed Buiel has just joined us as an APH follower, I'll kick off the interrogation by asking Ed to explain why the Ultrabattery performs differently from the PbC and whether he believes the two different species of lead-carbon batteries will be knock-down drag-out competitors for the same types of markets.
    24 Jan 2013, 02:36 PM Reply Like
  • So while I was at Axion, we presented quite a bit of data about this topic at conferences. The Ultrabattery combines lead and carbon on the negative electrode and the PbC battery only has carbon. At first glance you might think the Ultrabattery is a good idea, lots of energy from the lead in the negative and through in some carbon to add power. Sounds great. Doesn't work.


    The reason for this is pretty simple, lead has a great discharge capability owing to the fact it oxidizes like a champ (gives up electrons very easily). So, although you can charge the carbon, you have to pretty much discharge the lead part of the negative down to nothing in order to get the energy you put in the carbon out. Basically the carbon is dead.


    Another issue we found is that the carbon material at the extreme low potential of the lead in the negative electrode, the carbon will hydrogenate or more simply picks up hydrogen. Ok, let's back up a little bit, if you mix two materials and put them in the same electrode (i.e. lead and carbon) they are touching eachother and so they have to be at the exact same potential. The carbon material has little capacity compared to lead and so while there is a combination of lead and lead sulfate in the electrode, you will be pinned to the extreme low potential of the lead (-0.3V vs SHE). This is very similar to ice and water. If they are found together (and you stir a bit) the water will be held at 0C. You have to melt the ice before it can change temperature. This is the same with lead and lead sulfate. If you want to go below -0.3V vs SHE, you electrode has to be all lead. If you want to go above -0.3V vs SHE the electrode has to be all lead sulphate. Combining lead with carbon doesn't work because the carbon material has a very sloping voltage profile. It just doesn't work.


    Another, probably bigger problem, is that the potential is too low for the carbon material when combine with lead/lead sulfate at -0.3V. The structure of the carbon changes from SP2 hybridization (graphite structure very conductive) to SP3 hybridization (diamond). The former is an excellent conductor and the later is an excellent insulator. When it changes to the insulator form, it stops it's ability to pick up electrons and becomes electrochemically dead. Axion has showed this many times.


    The PbC battery gets around this by eliminating the lead. Axion only goes to 2.3 volts per cell instead of the normal 2.4 volts per cell of a lead acid to keep the negative away from this dangerous potential.


    Ok - that was a lot for a first post. If something is unclear, send me some questions and we will get it resolved. This point is very important.


    One thing that I have always longed for is a good paper comparing the two battery technologies. This would really show the differences between the two.
    25 Jan 2013, 03:20 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks for the post Dr. Buiel, I am just beginning to digest your comment.


    To bring it back to a more basic level, John has described the current evolution of lead acid batteries as 1.0 (EFB), 2.0 (AGM) and 3.0 (PbC) -- with carbon additives making the the EFB or AGM slightly better.


    It would appear that the Ultrabattery would be somewhat similar to an EFB or AGM with carbon additives as all of them combine lead and carbon on the negative electrode.


    How would you place the UB on John's scale? And could you expand a little bit on your comment that the UB "doesn't work?"
    25 Jan 2013, 09:31 AM Reply Like
  • The way I think I am understanding it is that while having a lead and carbon negative sounds great (best of both worlds) the benefits of the carbon don't come into play until after the lead has charged or discharged. So the lead part of the negative electrode slows down the high DCA of the carbon part of the electrode? The lead leads in transferring the electrons, while the carbon has to wait on it?
    25 Jan 2013, 09:39 AM Reply Like
  • EBeuil, one takeaway from your post is that the PbC is charged at 0.1 volts less than standard AGM Pb chemistry. Does this mean the charging protocol for PbC is unique? Do all three charging stages have different voltages, or do two overlap regular AGM protocol?


    Or have I misunderstood your post?
    25 Jan 2013, 12:24 PM Reply Like
  • I would not put any stock in the carbon additive batteries to Ultrabatteries. As one person put it from Ford Research in Aachen Germany, carbon additive batteries or the Ultrabattery do not perform as well as a standard AGM battery.


    I've been asked by a few people to put my money where my mouth is on these topics. I am now running a small R&D lab in Tennessee manly for lithium ion and supercapacitor materials development (I've had to go where the money is). I would be happy to have these batteries built (maybe by Axion?) and then test them. The truth needs to come to light here.
    28 Jan 2013, 04:11 AM Reply Like
  • Norbert Maleschitz's presentation at this year's ELBC used the Axion-BMW test protocol to compare an AGM with two carbon additive AGMs. The conclusion slide is here:



    The entire presentation is here:



    There was also a presentation from the University of Sheffield that modeled the Ultrabattery against an AGM and two different AGM-ultracapacitor pairs.

    28 Jan 2013, 08:06 AM Reply Like
  • EB
    I'm having trouble with the idea that the ultra battery will fail, when they have a Honda hybrid with 100k miles on it.

    28 Jan 2013, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • You just reduce the charge voltage to 13.8V instead of 14.0, 14.4, and 14.8V. This is a pretty simple change and some chargers will do this already (high temp setting on AGM charger).


    3 Feb 2013, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • Go JP!!!
    24 Jan 2013, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • One more nail in the PbC use for oil rigs coffin?


    Tuesday, January 15, 2013
    When Natural Gas Replacing Diesel in Frac Jobs
    By EconMatters



    "Frac is one of the most energy intensive processes in the oil industry. According to Apache, only 1% of drilling rigs and zero full frac spreads are powered by gas. In 2012, the industry will have used more than 700 million gal of diesel to pump sand and water during fracture stimulation. That’s $2.38 billion spent on diesel at a recent average of $3.40/gal. Converting the process to using field gas would reduce fuel costs by 70% thus driving down the per barrel cost of oil. Furthermore, by replacing diesel with gas to fuel frac jobs, the US would import 17 million fewer barrels of oil each year. "
    24 Jan 2013, 03:18 PM Reply Like
  • Hydraulic fracturing is diesel powered because the fracking trucks are self contained monsters that carry their own gen-sets to power their pumps.


    A great aerial photo of a working frac job with about 15 trucks on a single well is here:



    Another with 34 trucks on a single well is here:



    It's not at all unusual to see operators move in 25 to 50 MW of generators and pumps for a big frac job.


    The oil well application for the PowerCube is to eliminate one of the double redundant generators for a working drill rig and has nothing to do with special operations like frac jobs.
    24 Jan 2013, 03:51 PM Reply Like
  • Notwithstanding the safety issues, aren't they drilling multiple wells from the same pad now? Might there be a way to use some of the gas that might be flared otherwise (and with better PR) to drill "the rest of them" from a particular pad once the first one is done?


    Obviously would mightily change the scheduling logistics, but for enough $$ savings .... and if it creates competition between Fracing providers to drive total drilling costs for the pad down? Should reduce noise and road traffic (which may lead to fees in some areas?) as well if they don't have to replenish the diesel tankers to drill all the wells on a pad?
    24 Jan 2013, 04:08 PM Reply Like
  • It's been many tears since I've set foot on a working drill rig so my knowledge is far from current. We used to spend weeks drilling a well and then do the completion work in a couple days. The completion service guys would caravan in, set up their equipment, do the job and then head out for the next well. Until the frac job is done and the well completed, there typically isn't any gas to flare unless it's a multi-well pad where a couple wells are already completed and in production.


    The biggest problem people face when trying to shave costs in the oil industry is that day rates on equipment like fracking trucks make the fuel costs seem insignificant. It's just not an industry that's driven by saving a buck on fuel if the associated delays cost more in equipment rental charges.
    24 Jan 2013, 04:25 PM Reply Like
  • "Hydraulic fracturing is diesel powered because the fracking trucks are self contained monsters that carry their own gen-sets to power their pumps.'


    Not saying you are wrong about the gen-sets, JP, but the description differs from that provided within the past few days by an extended family member currently coordinating contract drilling, well completion, well workovers, etc. When put the question of whether fracking operators relied on diesel gensets to power compressor/pumping equipment or diesel driven mechanical compression, the response was mechanical. And, it was delivered almost instantaneously. He went on to say electrically powered equipment would give operators finer control and help avoid some issues.


    It could be demand for fracking services has so far outstripped supply that both electrically and mechanically driven equipment is in the field.


    Regarding the article at, I note it references a report published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America (PNAS). Readers might want to consider the fact that "peer review" comes in many forms with some much more rigorous and supportive of quality than others. PNAS "peer review" is generally performed by those author(s) deem their peers and name for the publisher, i.e. - "sweetheart review." I do not rank PNAS articles high on reliability and credibility when the subject matter is politically sensitive such as climate change and fracking.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:20 PM Reply Like
  • Mechanical pumps wouldn't surprise me at all and it actually makes more sense now that I think about it. I get so used to dealing with electrical systems that my mind goes there even when it shouldn't. The point is that getting field gas to a fleet of hydraulic fracturing trucks that's trying to work is a monumental task for temporary plumbing.
    25 Jan 2013, 06:16 AM Reply Like
  • This question is probably more for JP than Ed Buiel, if it can be answered at all at this point.


    This relates to ePower's trucking solution. We understand that the PbC has a service life of roughly 100,000 - 130,000 "events" in a start-stop automobile with the assumption that there is roughly 1 event per mile driven. That would work out to roughly an eight year service life.


    Now with ePower, we're talking about 52 PbC batteries in a system that will generate much larger mileage improvements (in percentage terms) than will the stop-start application. The batteries are expected to last for the service life of the rebuilt tractor (roughly five years / 625,000 miles IIRC). I know the applications are not apples to apples, but it seems surprising that the PbC battery would have such a long service life in what at first glance appears to be a more demanding application.


    All in all, the ePower application as we understand it, seems to have extremely powerful economics (18-24month payback) that dwarfs the economics of the auto application, the powercube ($200k/megawatt/year Viridity estimate), and maybe the yard locomotive (to my very limited understanding of the economics of this application) as well. Can you shed any light on this?
    Thanks very much.
    24 Jan 2013, 03:23 PM Reply Like
  • ePower's goal was a two year replacement cycle on the batteries. My contact in Lyon tells me that Axion believes the PbC will have a longer service life, but I'm not sure whether the PbC will be a "life of the truck" solution or one that requires a battery replacement every four or five years.
    24 Jan 2013, 03:42 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks John. That helps a lot. BTW, here's my back of the envelope math:


    If a PbC in a micro-hybrid could increase gas mileage 10% from 25mpg base, then for 12,000 miles/year for 8 years would yield 384 gallons of fuel saved by a single PbC battery.


    For a tractor where 52 PbC batteries help increase mileage 33% from a 6mpg base that would result in 7,000 gallons of fuel saved per year or 134 gallons/year/PbC battery).


    With a little bit of squinting, it does look like the fuel savings per battery over its service life are roughly similar. For me that provides a little bit of confirmation. Thanks again.
    24 Jan 2013, 10:43 PM Reply Like
  • The system would not be working for most of the miles while the truck is running on the highway. Just during start/stop, regen, and launch assist. Correct?


    PbC batteries also benefit from being equalized. We found that after 100,000 miles if you could just charge the batteries for 36-48h continuously, then most of the capacity could be recovered as you break up sulfate on the positive electrode. Automobile companies wouldn't consider this but I bet the ePower truck could have such an option to just plug it in for a few days when the truck was down in maintenance or just off the road (weekend?). This could greatly extend the life.
    25 Jan 2013, 03:20 AM Reply Like
  • The ePower system is using a small (195 hp) turbo diesel generator to provide enough power for steady state operation at 65 mph on flat ground with a few kW left over for battery recharge. The batteries are only used for launch assist, climbing and regen.
    25 Jan 2013, 06:20 AM Reply Like
  • I like that 36-48h thought. Would the same hold for heavier applications, such as the Norfolk Sourthern electric locomotives?


    Great to have you here sir!


    25 Jan 2013, 08:28 AM Reply Like
  • EBuiel,


    "We found that after 100,000 miles if you could just charge the batteries for 36-48h continuously, then most of the capacity could be recovered as you break up sulfate on the positive electrode."


    Would this imply then that using the "BMW/Ford stop/start test", pg. 18 of Axion's Investor Presentation as a reference for PbC life,

    that if for example the PbC were in a 48 volt configuration in a hybrid car, that after driving it for 8 years and the PbC would not have the same charge acceptance or charge time as a new battery, that one could take it to a dealer where it could be plugged in for a length of time, and the PbC would be able to recover most of its capacity?


    Would this also work on individual batteries, i.e. a one battery stop/start system?


    Thanks again.
    25 Jan 2013, 08:55 AM Reply Like
  • EBuiel, Thanks very much. Your answer and JP's, both shed light on this very critical issue. As a follow-on question is it practical for the PbC to be revitalized multiple times using the 36-48h recharge method? I'm thinking is 300,000 or 400,000 miles practical?


    From my back of the envelope numbers, it becomes very clear that the trucking application would have enormous, industry changing potential for the trucking industry if the service life of the batteries could be extended anywhere near the service life of the rebuild (5 years 625,000 miles) even with a relatively "modest" 33% improvement in fuel economy. Of course, if the fuel economy boost is better than that then a shorter service life may still be acceptable.


    I guess that is also why I'm getting a little nervous about the lack of news from ePower. A one week delay around Thanksgiving due to a non-PbC related parts issue has turned into two months. The grand tour of trucking companies either didn't take place or the response didn't take the expected form.


    I'm sure TG must be shaking his head. It would appear that he is trying to hold off on the financing in order to give more time for some good news that would improve the terms, whether they be from a financial investor or strategic partner.


    We all have our "favorite" opportunities (auto, rail, trucking, behind the meter, utility, oil rigs, Residential Hub.....). Personally, trucking is/was my favorite, both in terms of the economics for the customer and the time to market. I thought it would be the project that momentum for Axion. So, from my perspective, this is an very important time for Axion. Each day seems critical now.
    25 Jan 2013, 11:12 AM Reply Like
  • The absence of news should not be confused with the absence of activity or results. ePower has asked me to protect their confidences and I'm complying with their request until they choose to speak.
    25 Jan 2013, 11:20 AM Reply Like
  • While I am impressed with the ability to revitalize the PbC I am hopeful that isn't a buy it for life product.


    If so the price per unit better reflect its longevity.
    25 Jan 2013, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • AP, last year when we had this discussion on financing, it was posted and may be even announced that the deal had been cut months before with a maximum cap of.35. TG hyped it with releases to get it there.
    Who knows what it is this time, but I expect the terms are already cut. I expect news on the capital raise any day....between .25-.35 and pray for not ..20.
    IMO, I see nothing far enough along to be a catalyst big enough to be meaningful for this year, maybe later as in 4th qtr. TB just stated there is no support for now at weak price points on the charts..and I agree.
    25 Jan 2013, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • JP. I'm sure there is lots of activity but yes it is quite possible to equate the lack of news with a lack of results (maybe that's explains this week's move in the stock price).


    I think the tale will be told by the financing. As long as the lack of ePower news is matched by Axion holding off on the financing then I'll interpret that to mean that TG feels progress is being made on the ePower front.


    I bought more stock last week. Maybe the market is feeling the same way I am. Also note we're at the anniversary of last year's financing.
    25 Jan 2013, 11:35 AM Reply Like
  • APMarshall, I really appreciate your comments!


    But I don't think each day is critical. Rember there is no debt. If the PbC does what Axion says it does its time will come and methinks it draws nigh.
    25 Jan 2013, 11:55 AM Reply Like
  • John, A little Willie seems fitting.

    25 Jan 2013, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • "little willie"???? Lets not get personal here!


    Sounds like the pet names my last wife and I had for each other. I called her Lucy and she called me Shorty.
    25 Jan 2013, 12:26 PM Reply Like
  • That's exactly what my wife said Iindelco.
    25 Jan 2013, 12:36 PM Reply Like
  • Also OT.


    Well, I was kinda referring to getting the ePower Engine truck back on the road. But if you guys are lookin' to go with some kind of Freud interpretation , well, here ya go.



    PS Play it low and don't let em hear it. (Really didn't want to post this because I'd like to ask Dr. Buiel some questions in the future, holding off because he's going to be overwhelmed short term, and now he'll never take me seriously.)
    25 Jan 2013, 01:32 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco,
    Are you concerned that Dr. Buiel will will not take you seriously because you are posting a song with a double entendre, or because you are a fan of The Sweet?
    25 Jan 2013, 03:39 PM Reply Like
  • Metro, If I was a fan of The Sweet I'd stop talking to myself!


    And if that song was important/relevant I'd have forgotten it yesterday. A blessing not enjoyed I'm afraid.
    25 Jan 2013, 03:50 PM Reply Like
  • Ed's a former hockey player Iindelco. While he's darned serious about his science I've got film with him and a belly dancer on the streets of Istanbul. He has to take you serious because your questions are too smart to dismiss.
    25 Jan 2013, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • "film with him and a belly dancer on the streets of Istanbul"


    Now that's some serious leverage.


    Avatar potential?
    25 Jan 2013, 04:12 PM Reply Like
  • Albert: Even that shouldn't be a problem as there are always new/used trucks moving into and out of the market, new.older people entering/leaving, etc.


    There would still be very good demand for as far as the eye can see or my mind can imagine.


    25 Jan 2013, 04:13 PM Reply Like
  • John, After I started moving up in my career and started spending more time outside of the social strata I grew up in it became very obvious to me, as I spent more time in social environments with coworkers, that people that were very talented and serious at work could sure let their hair down. We all need stress relief.


    Let's see "Canadian hockey player" + belly dancer + festive atmosphere in the streets of Istanbul. Hmmm, having a good time after he's taken care of business? I'm shocked! LOL.


    Your comments concerning my questions are too kind. I'm dying to ask away but I'll give Dr. Buiel some breathing room as he joins the group. We could probably all do a video conference with him for a few days just to try to cover all the things we'd all like to ask.I'm already smiling like a cheshire cat with come of the questions asked and the responses.


    Thank you Dr. Buiel for joining us.
    25 Jan 2013, 04:44 PM Reply Like
  • My interpretation is that battery is the key component e-power needs to have a product. This is not a drop-in replacement, so there is plenty of tuning of the entire system get the most out of it. Charge control is the biggest, is my guess. NS had to figure it out for trains, e-power has to work it out for their trucks. Edge conditions, such as when battery is fully charged or discharged, max charge rate vs charge state, have to be done right. E-power has to get it right this time, just like NS. They may come out with a sub-optimal version to make sure the batteries are not damaged, leaving some room for improvements.
    It's not a public company They don't have public shareholders to inform about anything.
    26 Jan 2013, 12:29 PM Reply Like
  • While it's true that ePower doesn't have stockholders that it must inform about developments, it is a small company that want's PR exposure as opposed to a major OEM that wants to operate in stealth. That's one of many reasons why I think the Axion - ePower relationship could be very good for both companies.
    26 Jan 2013, 12:39 PM Reply Like
  • >JP ... I would guess that ePower may be finding some different operating parameters using Axion PbC compared to whatever LAB they were using. Particularly, and this is purely a guess based on knowing how most people design them, the inverters that supply power for acceleration. Nothing that is a show stopper or even a speed bump to product launch but a noticeable difference. One that would workout to the overall benefit of the system.


    In the last APC you said (paraphrased) that the batteries had passed the most severe conditions possible in the stationary testing. Field testing was more for system integration. Most likely true. My link below is a review of field testing of the Green Goat for the Pacific Harbor Lines just to give people here an idea of those things that just have to be learned in the field. It is rather lengthy but a quick read of pages 11 to 16 will give a primer.



    I would guess or not be surprised that ePower has had many of the same or similar growing pains as RailPower.
    26 Jan 2013, 01:02 PM Reply Like
  • >JohnM121 ... I agree with the statement that the "battery is the key component". It is why electric drive has been so long in coming to market because it anything but a NEW idea. People spend a lot of time worrying about the charging control ... no doubt it is important, very important but I'd put it to you to consider that the most abusive part of the cycle to the battery is on the discharge. It is the part of the duty cycle that is most out of the control of the design engineers.
    26 Jan 2013, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • ePower had its fair share of delays and difficulties. They built their first series hybrid prototype in 2009 and the current versions in 2011. As you can imagine, their initial ramp forecasts were more than a little optimistic. While delays are never pleasant, they're always educational in the extreme and with any luck ePower is now at a point where they've learned most of the hard lessons.
    26 Jan 2013, 01:24 PM Reply Like
  • Yes. Not all capacity can be recovered but lots can.
    28 Jan 2013, 04:11 AM Reply Like
  • Duke Energy and Xtreme Power Announce Completion of Notrees Energy Storage Project
    Largest Battery System Installed by Xtreme Power



    "The system is part of Duke Energy's Notrees 153 MW Windpower Project. The 36MW Battery Storage system is capable of deploying fast-acting reserves to support ERCOT grid reliability and helping the System Operator maintain supply and demand balance with near-instantaneous feedback of frequency changes or other unexpected events"


    According to


    Total Budget: $43,612,464
    Federal Share: $21,806,232


    Zacks notes and analysis:


    "All the electricity generated from the facility will be sold by Xtreme Power to Wal-Mart Stores Inc. (WMT - Analyst Report)."
    (Unfortunately, no reference for that)


    2011 Sandia Project Presentation :
    24 Jan 2013, 03:52 PM Reply Like
  • wtb, Haven't seen any new news of storage for wind in quite some time so I'm not unhappy to see this.
    Recent fires have definitely set back the cause of storage, although I'm sure thats only temporary.
    24 Jan 2013, 04:04 PM Reply Like
  • This snowball has been rolling downhill for some time ... I think it was a Recovery Act project. It may have been largely completed and in various testing phases when word of the Hawaii fires came. One wonders if any changes have been made as a result of them, or whether the safety design considerations were significantly different on this project.


    I think/TOTALLY speculate there's a small, but non-zero chance that the Hawaii project was sabotaged, and also a non-zero chance we'll never know what happened, though hopefully there will be some "probabilistic" explanations offered.
    24 Jan 2013, 04:17 PM Reply Like
  • Xtreme power is really frustrating to me. It is the old Eagle Pitcher Horizon battery (lead acid) and they never will admit it.


    Compare this:


    With this:


    And they catch fire too. Just ask Dynapower...


    28 Jan 2013, 04:16 AM Reply Like
  • Interesting that the fire seems to have been stated by capacitors.


    "Firefighters did not enter the building until seven hours after the flames started because of questions regarding the toxicity of the "12,000 batteries." The Honolulu Fire Department said a fire at the same building in April 2011 burned itself out. There was another fire in May of this year, and both fires were attributed to ECI capacitors in inverters from Dynapower. Xtreme is suing Dynapower, according to Courthouse News Service."
    28 Jan 2013, 09:40 AM Reply Like
  • Then why did Xtreme do a deal with GE for their batteries? Looks like Xtreme is simply trying to shift the blame and buy time before they settle out of court with somebody.
    28 Jan 2013, 09:49 AM Reply Like
  • Dr. Buiel,


    Xtreme Power has been a subject of much interest and speculation to this board. Thanks for weighing in with your take!


    Anything you could add regarding Xtreme would be of interest, but its clear that you are not impressed with their lead acid chemistry--which they are very secretive about.


    A recent press release from Xtreme indicated that they were
    (quote) excited to add new battery chemistry to our product offering (unquote)
    “Furthermore, we’re excited to add new battery chemistry to our product offering, which, in this case, deploys lithium-titanate. The chemistry’s performance characteristics match perfectly with the needs of this new market.”
    28 Jan 2013, 11:05 AM Reply Like
  • I assume they are using Altairnano's cells since Alan Gotcher used to be with them.
    29 Jan 2013, 08:57 AM Reply Like
  • This may be of interest in light of the battery replacement cycle discussion.


    Age of U.S. fleets spikes during recession

    24 Jan 2013, 03:58 PM Reply Like
  • Sigh. NS999 back in it's resting place outside the Juniata shop. Picture dated 01/19/13.

    24 Jan 2013, 05:19 PM Reply Like
  • ii,


    Can we pretend that possibly the work on the 999 is all complete and now it is back outside on the tracks and ready to go to work??
    24 Jan 2013, 05:25 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun, Well ya never know. Since they keep putting it in the same place maybe that's where the charge station is located? Well, that's speculating. Isn't it grand?
    24 Jan 2013, 05:43 PM Reply Like
  • why is said locomotive in livery 8011 and not 999? thanks.
    25 Jan 2013, 08:51 AM Reply Like
  • Sir why is the locomotive in livery "8011" and not 999?
    25 Jan 2013, 08:51 AM Reply Like
  • Brian: 999 is right behind that one.


    25 Jan 2013, 09:07 AM Reply Like


    A guy having fun with Li-ion.
    24 Jan 2013, 05:30 PM Reply Like
  • Reminds me of "Jackass."
    24 Jan 2013, 05:45 PM Reply Like
  • No, I think the guys on "Jackass" got paid. This guy is dumb for free. Not to mention the child's voice nearby during one of his imparted cell failures. Teach em well and don't put em in harms way.
    24 Jan 2013, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • Those rules only apply if you're not gunning for a Darwin Award.
    24 Jan 2013, 06:16 PM Reply Like
  • Actually, great link and instructive video, though I certainly wouldn't be as cavalier about personal safety gear and the proximity of combustibles, I think the guy does a service, at least for me anyway, by giving some clues as to what to expect in the event mayhem strikes. I have to confess too that I tend to place deep value on all forms of uh, *courageous* redneck engineering, believing it's one of those things that has paradoxically, over the years, helped make America great.. Yet, I'd sure like to think I'd give the things that could go very wrong a lot more respect though... ;) Anyway, I'm surprised the Li-Po's he was murdering were as tolerant as they appeared to be, but clearly, if one of these decides to cook off at the wrong time/place it's going to ruin someone's day.
    24 Jan 2013, 07:44 PM Reply Like
  • right with you on that, 48. DIY and all that.
    24 Jan 2013, 10:10 PM Reply Like
  • Not so instructional.
    A lot more safety is required.
    Explosion proof bags for hobbyists for instance.



    JP may still have a link to an article where a guy died because his cell blew up in his shirt pocket.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:23 PM Reply Like
  • Instructive, not instructional. Subtle, but key, diff. ;)


    In fact, I have one of those bags myself, though it's an off brand.


    Also, personal story...12 years ago, a good friend of mine had his detached garage/workshop completely burn down because of a fire started by li-ion batteries (for marine walkie-talkies) charging unattended (improper) on his workbench. He was inside the house when his neighbor told him about the fire in his backyard and he tried to fight it himself, but the whole shop was involved by that time and the garage door blew him down when he began to open it. He had a lot of resins, paints and glues, model fuel and balsa wood in there, and the noxious combustion products he inhaled that day likely led to his death several weeks later. He had undergone chemo for bone cancer all the previous year yet had come through it okay, but his immune system was evidently impaired and the toxins he aspirated on the day of the fire catalyzed some kind of auto-immune syndrome/infection in his lungs, which soon put him into a coma and then eventually did him in. The guy was a lion. We'd been friends since we were ten years old. Brothers, never underestimate the random destructive power of a bad chain reaction...
    25 Jan 2013, 01:14 AM Reply Like
  • 48,
    "Brothers, never underestimate the random destructive power of a bad chain reaction..."


    Thanks for the reminder. Bad things happen to good people.
    Sorry about your friend.
    25 Jan 2013, 07:44 AM Reply Like
  • So much for the golden cross!
    24 Jan 2013, 08:18 PM Reply Like
  • One day of trading doesn't materially change the 10-, 20-, 50- or 200-day volume weighted moving averages. The golden cross is still forming.
    24 Jan 2013, 09:02 PM Reply Like
  • Tony: As mentioned in my daily EOD, it should just get pushed out a bit - if the rising trading channel remains in play. I've seen noting *yet* suggesting it is not still in play. Yesterday we bounced right of the support of the "old" channel that I identified (only as an early possibility) in November.


    25 Jan 2013, 08:34 AM Reply Like
  • It seems the Leaf isn't selling so well elsewhere in the world either.


    Nissan Slashes 2013 Entry Level LEAF Pricing In Japan By $3,100 To Offset End Of Subsidies And Increase Demand


    <It was only two months ago that Nissan revealed the new 2013 LEAF lineup and pricing in Japan, but apparently pressure to both boost short-term sales, and to get ahead of this year’s government subsidy on EVs expiring at the end of March (currently worth 780,000 yen). Japan has yet to outline what the subsidy level for 2013 will be set at.


    Nissan posted a bulletin on their Japanese site that further deductions (up to 280,000 JPY, incl tax..about $3,100 USD) would be applied to the model starting now.


    Nissan executive Takao Katagiri explained it to SankeiBiz this way, “…after some improvements, the reaction of customers was good but you want to increase sales really is needed cheap price.” (via Sankei Biz)
    In December, Nissan sold 870 LEAFs in Japan. And while that number is not bad, it is thought Nissan wanted to sell at least 1,500 a month going forward.
    Starting in April, the entry level S model LEAF will officially be priced at around 3 million JPY before 780,000 yen rebate, bringing the net price to 2.213 million (even cheaper regionally), or about $24,600 USD. Customers between now and April will get a bonus of sorts, as they will receive a “coupon” worth 280,000 JPY to be used at any Nissan dealership for future cars and/or parts and service>


    Nissan Cuts LEAF Price In Europe By €3,000 ($4,000 USD)


    More shallow pools getting filled.
    24 Jan 2013, 08:39 PM Reply Like
  • Nanotechnology to the rescue.


    Solid Electrolyte Leads to Safer Energy-Dense Li-ion Batteries



    "...researchers at Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL) have developed a nanostructured solid electrolyte for more energy-dense Li-ion batteries. They expect that replacing liquid electrolytes in Li-ion batteries with solid ones should lead to safer batteries."
    24 Jan 2013, 08:54 PM Reply Like
  • All that may be true, I don't think so, but the bottom line is that if you look at the dreamliner, Fisker Karman, cargo plane fires, etc., you have to be concerned. I see lots of streetcar, hybrid bus, hybrid locomotives, and other renewable energy or green projects that need batteries that can charge/discharge fast. You try to do that with lithium ion and you have a problem, or a big potential problem. Lead acid can't charge fast, especially when cold, NiMH is expensive because of the Ni, and supercaps don't hold much energy. What are you going to do?


    Axion - please take my advice, move faster!!! Get you lines rolling and get batteries out in the market. There are applications for what you are selling. It is not a fake advanced battery like Xtreme power and it works contrary to the Ultrabattery. Just get it out there...
    24 Jan 2013, 11:49 PM Reply Like
  • >Ebuiel ... Thanks !!! Just some, such as yourself, saying; "Axion - please take my advice, move faster!!!" will warm the cockles of many a commenter heart in this forum.


    I'm going to like this guy. Welcome aboard.


    Could you elaborate (contrast & compare to PbC) a little about "and it works contrary to the Ultrabattery" since I really know very little about the Ultrabattery. I followed the development papers from bye-gone years but I always read them and came away thinking the device worked yet never got a feel for just how well (or not) the supercapacitor worked. I don't ever remember reading about rise times or the relationship of voltage drop to optimal discharge along with other odds-&-ends.
    24 Jan 2013, 11:58 PM Reply Like
  • Ebuiel,


    Welcome to the party, we are excited to have you provide us with additional knowledge and insight.


    If you would please expound on the differences between the Ultra battery and the PbC.


    25 Jan 2013, 12:11 AM Reply Like
  • Ed---great to hear from you. Welcome aboard.


    I'll ask about:


    "Axion - please take my advice, move faster!!! Get you lines rolling and get batteries out in the market."


    If you would expand on that, that would be helpful. We have long been lead to believe that many of the prospective customer groups for which the properties of the PbC seem to be an excellent match, e.g., automobile start/stop, hybrid locomotives, frequency response, etc., move extremely slowly in their decision making due to extensive testing. Are you saying that a more aggressive Axion would speed that along, or that they should focus on faster-moving prospective customers/applications (e.g., ePower, a budding hybrid truck maker), or something else?


    I'll leave it to someone else to ask what you mean by "a fake advanced battery like Xtreme power." Quote of the week if you ask me!


    25 Jan 2013, 12:39 AM Reply Like
  • Axion - please take my advice, move faster!!! Get you lines rolling and get batteries out in the market. There are applications for what you are selling. It is not a fake advanced battery like Xtreme power and it works contrary to the Ultrabattery. Just get it out there..."


    You have no idea how many times I have said that.
    25 Jan 2013, 04:13 AM Reply Like
  • DRich> Ed gave a summary of the Ultrabattery difference in an earlier comment –
    25 Jan 2013, 06:25 AM Reply Like
  • Mr. I - "lead to believe" .... good pun!
    25 Jan 2013, 08:38 AM Reply Like
  • >JP ... Thanks, I just caught that a few minutes ago. A nice simple & clear explanation.


    Easy to understand why the AGM with carbon paste is a dud too. I particularly appreciated the ePower response that shows that the charging algorithm applied for 36-48h that Penn State PR'ed a week or so back is a big plus for the Axion PbC and no threat.
    25 Jan 2013, 09:30 AM Reply Like
  • When I left 2 years ago, they had one line that was close to making 100 batteries a day. They built a second line to build 100 batteries a day that was more automated.


    Are they making at least 100 PbC batteries per day now? If not, when?
    28 Jan 2013, 04:08 AM Reply Like
  • Common theme, here is the post again:


    So while I was at Axion, we presented quite a bit of data about this topic at conferences. The Ultrabattery combines lead and carbon on the negative electrode and the PbC battery only has carbon. At first glance you might think the Ultrabattery is a good idea, lots of energy from the lead in the negative and through in some carbon to add power. Sounds great. Doesn't work.


    The reason for this is pretty simple, lead has a great discharge capability owing to the fact it oxidizes like a champ (gives up electrons very easily). So, although you can charge the carbon, you have to pretty much discharge the lead part of the negative down to nothing in order to get the energy you put in the carbon out. Basically the carbon is dead.


    Another issue we found is that the carbon material at the extreme low potential of the lead in the negative electrode, the carbon will hydrogenate or more simply picks up hydrogen. Ok, let's back up a little bit, if you mix two materials and put them in the same electrode (i.e. lead and carbon) they are touching eachother and so they have to be at the exact same potential. The carbon material has little capacity compared to lead and so while there is a combination of lead and lead sulfate in the electrode, you will be pinned to the extreme low potential of the lead (-0.3V vs SHE). This is very similar to ice and water. If they are found together (and you stir a bit) the water will be held at 0C. You have to melt the ice before it can change temperature. This is the same with lead and lead sulfate. If you want to go below -0.3V vs SHE, you electrode has to be all lead. If you want to go above -0.3V vs SHE the electrode has to be all lead sulphate. Combining lead with carbon doesn't work because the carbon material has a very sloping voltage profile. It just doesn't work.


    Another, probably bigger problem, is that the potential is too low for the carbon material when combine with lead/lead sulfate at -0.3V. The structure of the carbon changes from SP2 hybridization (graphite structure very conductive) to SP3 hybridization (diamond). The former is an excellent conductor and the later is an excellent insulator. When it changes to the insulator form, it stops it's ability to pick up electrons and becomes electrochemically dead. Axion has showed this many times.


    The PbC battery gets around this by eliminating the lead. Axion only goes to 2.3 volts per cell instead of the normal 2.4 volts per cell of a lead acid to keep the negative away from this dangerous potential.


    Ok - that was a lot for a first post. If something is unclear, send me some questions and we will get it resolved. This point is very important.


    One thing that I have always longed for is a good paper comparing the two battery technologies. This would really show the differences between the two
    28 Jan 2013, 04:08 AM Reply Like
  • I think I answered the PbC vs Ultrabattery differences yesterday. If you still don't see it in this thread, let me know and I will repost.
    28 Jan 2013, 04:09 AM Reply Like
  • Axion does not breakout its battery sales by type of battery. TG has talked about production rates on the company's robotic C electrode production line which I believe is enough to produce something on the order of 225 12V PbCs daily. Disclosed PbC sales in 2012 total less than 1,000 batteries (864 batteries to NSC for its NS999 locomotive and 52 PbCs to a class 8 truck OEM).
    28 Jan 2013, 10:18 AM Reply Like
  • While Axion doesn't disclose unit sales, it does disclose sales to principal customers, which makes it possible to land on a pretty good estimate of sales that aren't part of the flooded contract. For the first nine months of 2012, my calculated "PbC and other" revenues were $1,366,000, up 40% from $978,000 for the first nine months of 2011.


    The NS and ePower battery sales are not included in the nine month totals.
    28 Jan 2013, 11:18 AM Reply Like
  • JP, What was the the total for all of 2011?


    " For the first nine months of 2012, my calculated "PbC and other" revenues were $1,366,000, up 40% from $978,000 for the first nine months of 2011."


    28 Jan 2013, 08:23 PM Reply Like
  • My calculated totals for 2011 were:


    $6,410,484 – Flooded battery sales
    $1,221,045 – PbC and other
    $459,645 – Service
    $8,091,174 – Total revenue


    My year to date totals for 2011 were:


    $5,324,369 – Flooded battery sales
    $1,366,132 – PbC and other


    $6,690,501 – Total revenue
    28 Jan 2013, 08:28 PM Reply Like
  • John,
    the second 2011 should be 2012.
    28 Jan 2013, 09:44 PM Reply Like
  • Good catch but too late for me to change it.
    29 Jan 2013, 04:21 AM Reply Like
  • I liked the line, "how quickly can it be brought to market?"


    I dunno, how long will it take to go through all the tests to establish that the new method does not have some flaw that the patent holders hadn't considered in their rush to bring this new idea to market?
    24 Jan 2013, 11:09 PM Reply Like
  • Ebuiel,
    Again, thanks for participating.


    We've seen that on Axion's recent DOE grant that the goal is to work with a 2 battery system and recharge the PbC with 150 amps. It appears from the grant, that the DCA of the PbC could be upwards of 150 amps and IIRC it was much higher than this - albeit for maybe only short bursts during the NS testing.


    Would you able to shed any light on what is the DCA of other chemistries, i.e. Li-on that Axion is competing against in the stop/start market.


    25 Jan 2013, 04:43 AM Reply Like
  • DCA is very good for NiMH and Lithium Ion. But Ni is expensive and you have thermal management issues with lithium ion. For example, lithium ion battery life is control by two things - voltage and temperature. Fully charged (4.2V) and hot 65C, lithium ion fail in a few months. Not good. But 65C is hot say the lithium manufacturers however at hot temperatures, say above 45C, you are not going to get more than a couple of years out of them. You get lots of days in the US when the ambient temperature is 40C. Now you start doing lots of regen pulses and discharge pulses for launch assist (5C stuff for the technical people here) and now you have a 5+ C temperature rise in the cells and you are in the short life zone. This is the problem. As the cells die, their resistance goes up, heating rates go up, and the problem exacerbates itself. Not good...


    Real life data - look at the Nissan Leaf. Lawsuit by owners says they see a 27% loss in capacity in year one in southern climates. YIKES!


    See Leaf issues:
    28 Jan 2013, 04:08 AM Reply Like
  • Depends of course on the specific cell chemistry. A123 can do 5 C with no issues, as can other LiFePO4 and titanate chemistries. Very little internal heating. Tesla of course has such a large pack they probably never see those C rates.
    28 Jan 2013, 09:44 AM Reply Like
  • Dreamliner stuff:

    25 Jan 2013, 09:47 AM Reply Like
  • "Dreamliner: Boeing 787 aircraft battery 'not faulty'"



    External control electronics likely to blame.
    28 Jan 2013, 09:47 AM Reply Like
  • The sweet spot for selling a new class 8 truck is between 350-500k miles. We put ours on the market in December and I turned over the keys to the new owner yesterday. It was a fair offer and the time was right.


    I am not entirely sure if I will continue down the transportation road and since my Axion stock isn't in the new sailboat range, I suspect I will need to do something other than trim a sail. I have some ideas but nothing to get excited about - yet.


    I am looking for something project based, interesting and meaningful. If something crosses your path that meets any part of this criteria please do not hesitate to PM me about it. You might be surprised at what I find interesting or meaningful.


    It is very unusual for me to not have my next step(s) aligned before pulling the trigger. The thought of a new adventure just outweighs good planning in my personal life these days...
    25 Jan 2013, 10:51 AM Reply Like
  • Tim, wishing you all the best at this exciting time. I've no doubt you will find a need to fill somewhere.
    25 Jan 2013, 11:13 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane, thank you! what I could use most right now is sun shine and warm weather...
    25 Jan 2013, 01:08 PM Reply Like
  • Tim, Call me selfish but I was thinking maybe a very short stint as a test driver for ePower delivering and helping to install the first couple Rosewater Energy Hubs in the N.E. Something to do while you decide what you wanna be when you grow up! Just sayin..... ;-)


    Man oh man, I wish I wasn't just dreaming! The data to be had from such an adventure.
    25 Jan 2013, 01:44 PM Reply Like
  • Iindelco, the thought had occurred to me (as well as a few others here). The idea of spending time in Florida provides warmth to an otherwise dreary day here in Oregon. I certainly welcome the idea the opportunity to help move things along (thinking of my sailboat shopping)... oops, now I am dreaming...
    25 Jan 2013, 03:50 PM Reply Like
  • Tim, It's not exactly toasty in Rochester NY either. And don't complain about dreary. We get far less sun. I think it's those Great Lakes.


    Well if you ever get a chance we'd love the report.


    Let's see. Driving a sail boat to FL and they insist you try it out for a week to make sure there is no damage. Stay at the estate and let the wait staff know what you'd like for breakfast. Dream on....
    25 Jan 2013, 04:05 PM Reply Like
  • 2 sides to every story ... and lots of gray


    Jan 24, 2013, 4:10pm CST
    Wanxiang America president defends A123 Systems plans



    Be sure to check out the link to the Crain's article.
    25 Jan 2013, 10:52 AM Reply Like
  • Man, if you can't count on the Kilogram ...


    The Kilogram Has Gained Weight



    "There are cases of international trade in high-value materials – or waste – where every last microgram must be accounted for."
    25 Jan 2013, 11:09 AM Reply Like
  • Dr. Buiel, could you discuss differences in volt, amp, and charge balancing behavior of PbCs versus AGM and FLABs?


    I have the impression that those differences plus self-equalizing charge properties of the PbC simplify battery management systems needed for the battery but impose greater requirement on power conditioning systems between the battery and use of energy/power in the battery. Is expense of power conditioning circuitry a major factor impeding commercialization of PbC?
    25 Jan 2013, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • There is at least one study that I know Enders presented that showed when the batteries were intentionally connected at different SOC and cycled together, the conformed to the same SOC. This is truly unique to the PbC technology. AGM and lead acid will have some overcharge tolerance due to gasing and recombination but PbC seems to be very good here. This is important for many applications and eliminates the need for expensive and complicated charge clamping BMS systems like what is needed for lithium ion and supercapacitors.
    28 Jan 2013, 04:07 AM Reply Like
  • Geo-thermal

    25 Jan 2013, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • Now there is something that does not need storage. Definitely a story worth watching.
    25 Jan 2013, 01:59 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks LT.


    I often scratch my head watching some of the wind farms going up on the Hawaiian islands when they have some of the geothermal assets they have available.


    Geothermal? No, diesel, wind and solar. Errrrrr, OK?
    25 Jan 2013, 02:35 PM Reply Like
  • ii,


    Mustn't anger Pele by poking holes in her sacred mounts!


    25 Jan 2013, 02:39 PM Reply Like
  • "Hawaiian islands when they have some of the geothermal assets they have available."


    :-) Native Hawaiians may have had pre-Pinatubo conditioning experience interpreted as instructing, "Don't fool with Mother Nature!"
    25 Jan 2013, 06:09 PM Reply Like
  • While most modern thinkers would argue that there are no volcano gods, it would be very hard to prove that assertion to a scientific certainty.


    As soon as one allows for the remotest possibility that a volcano god might exist, avoiding activities that might irritate him, her, it becomes a very high priority.


    Besides, experience to date with hydraulic fracturing proves that even slightly unstable geology can react unfavorably if you add enough stress.


    25 Jan 2013, 06:21 PM Reply Like



    lol, there's at least two songs for everything
    25 Jan 2013, 06:49 PM Reply Like
  • ii, good point.
    I did a search and found that there is at least one active geothermal power plant in Hawaii and more are planned, but not without controversy. (We are naturally frightened of what we do not understand)
    28 Jan 2013, 11:18 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane, Unfortunately we have far too many people that derive far too little from the educational system they have been given access to. But they get an equal vote in some forums.


    Now back to appeasing the volcano Gods. If we don't make them mad we'll have a good crop and diesel prices will decline. :-P
    28 Jan 2013, 11:47 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    Some moron built a geothermal plant on Hawaii without reinjecting the water. Which stank of sulfur. Reportedly making the surroundings quite unpleasant to live in.
    28 Jan 2013, 11:55 AM Reply Like
  • >LT ... I like AltaRock Energy's idea. An idea I've thought about over the years. It is no trick to find dry wells that are fully cased and abandoned here in Texas that have down-hole temperatures of 800-900 degF. I know there are many really difficult challenges that are expensive associated with this, because I've watched the retorting with steam injection wells & CO2 on some old oil fields. My wonder has been whether things like this could be geothermal sites. Still, it seemed possible in my moments of daydreaming if only steam pressure could be recovered at useful levels. Apparently they can. Next question, can it be done at economical scale.
    25 Jan 2013, 02:13 PM Reply Like
  • DrR ... I don't know about economical scale...but my gut says yes "in time". I think of the deep sea drilling that was uneconomical when gas was $1/gal...and is now very profitable.


    We are all spoiled with "cheap energy" .. especially electricity. But if/when the grid is ever redone nationally...we will pay higher prices making new tech like this economical.


    If I didn't believe this, I would not own AXPW. Most here hate Obama, but he has started the country on the road to different forms of clean energy. Part of his legacy will be that he started it. So far, what's been spent is pennies but it has began the transition. Only time will tell what the labs come up with .... this APC misses nothing. So they will be at the forefront in many areas.
    25 Jan 2013, 05:21 PM Reply Like
  • I was looking into geothermal sometime back.
    The reported problem was the rocks don't transfer heat very well. The area would cool and not produce enough heat to be useful.
    (The area I was reading about was in Australia.)
    Being close enough to a magma flow would eliminate this; if you can do it safely.
    28 Jan 2013, 12:05 PM Reply Like
  • DRich


    Hot Times Ahead: The New Geothermal
    "So the interim way we're looking at is a couple of companies. One of them is SoloGen of San Antonio, Texas, another GreenWell, a company in Vancouver, Canada. They're looking at taking abandoned oil and gas wells.


    For instance, in the southern part of Texas, there are 86,000 abandoned oil and gas wells that are underlaid by a reservoir of hot brine containing some natural gas. So, if you just uncap those, put skid-mounted equipment, conventional technologies.things like organic rankine cycle engines, turbines, what's called a kinetic energy machine. You can make electricity of the hot brine water coming up and out of these wells, about 3 megawatts per well. So that's an exciting new geothermal method."
    25 Jan 2013, 02:48 PM Reply Like
  • Figure 3000 KW at 10 cents retail is worth $300 an hour, $7,200 a day, $2.6 Million a year if you're really talking 24x7 baseload power. With those kinds of potential numbers you'd think somebody ought to be able to make it work...
    25 Jan 2013, 03:01 PM Reply Like
  • The big problem with that idea is that most brines in southern Texas and Louisiana are super-saturated and when you cool them off you get a mineral precipitate with elevated levels of thorium and other naturally occurring radioactive materials. Paying NORM disposal costs from a few hundred bucks a day of power revenue is a tough economic proposition.
    25 Jan 2013, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • >D Lane ... South Texas (below San Antonio) is home for me. The really hot wells, I know of, are around Corpus Christi west to around Alice. The problem is bringing steam, brine or whatever up with enough working pressure left after overcoming the friction losses & water column weight. Even a closed loop system may not hold enough working pressure on the surface (without boost) to make the system do more than flow up & down without doing the useful work of generation. Alas, nothing is easy.
    25 Jan 2013, 03:15 PM Reply Like
  • JP: How timely! Below link explains that a new DEP radiation study-to-be was released yesterday:



    --The state Department of Environmental Protection has announced a yearlong study of radiation levels in equipment and wastes associated with oil and gas development it says will be the "most extensive and comprehensive" ever conducted.


    --The regulatory agency announced the study Thursday and said it will test radiation levels at dozens of well pads, wastewater treatment plants and waste disposal facilities statewide.


    Oil and gas-bearing rock formations like the Marcellus Shale contain naturally occurring radiation that is brought to the surface in wastewater and rock waste. It can concentrate on pipes or equipment or in wastewater sludges. Some fluid samples from shale drilling indicate "significant concentrations" of radium 226, a naturally occurring radioactive metal, according to the study proposal by Perma-Fix Environmental Services of Pittsburgh.
    25 Jan 2013, 04:25 PM Reply Like
  • I'm just a walking data bank of rarely useful trivia. In the early 90s Louisiana went way overboard with their NORM disposal regulations. Hopefully things have moderated a bit since then.
    25 Jan 2013, 04:29 PM Reply Like
  • I have to apologize to all of you. In my excitement I bought a fairly large block when we were recently around .375 and it immediately caused the price to drop. Works like death and taxes. I'll warn you next time so you can take advantage of my misfortune
    25 Jan 2013, 04:09 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks, alsobirdman. I painted the tape with a final trade of 31.4 cents today. Good luck to us both.
    25 Jan 2013, 04:25 PM Reply Like
  • Glad to help. I have not recently totaled up my shares and costs from different accounts, but I think I am at an average pps of around .37. I feel very strongly that in 3 years or so I will not worry too much about how much I overpaid for this bunch. I feel better every day about my holdings here.
    25 Jan 2013, 09:38 PM Reply Like
  • OT: artificial island for pumped hydro storage

    25 Jan 2013, 04:29 PM Reply Like
  • Wish I had a comparison of Primus (they're private) with ZBB, and whether ZBB bid and lost on this contract (a double loss if you look at it from both the power electronics and battery side?)



    January 23, 2013 03:00 PM Eastern Time
    Primus Power Receives Department of Defense Energy Storage System Demonstration Contract


    Key demonstration of energy storage to enable Marine base microgrid


    HAYWARD, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Primus Power, a leader in multi-megawatt, multi-hour, grid-scale electrical energy storage, was awarded a contract by Raytheon’s Integrated Defense Systems (IDS) business to deliver and support an electrical energy storage system for a microgrid at the Marine Corps Air Station (MCAS) in Miramar, California. Primus will work closely with Raytheon as part of the "Zinc Bromide Flow Battery Installation for Islanding and Backup Power" project funded by the Department of Defense Environmental Security Technology Certification Program (ESCTP).
    25 Jan 2013, 04:36 PM Reply Like
  • sorry wtb, but everytime i hear primus, it reminds me of:

    25 Jan 2013, 05:03 PM Reply Like
  • Anyone who is selling now to take advantage of a potential drop from an offering, so they can pick up shares more cheaply, needs to be reminded that at the last shareholder's conference, TG stated BMW fleet testing is about six months (or, maybe he said a half year, or so) away, IIRC.


    I also recall writing somewhere in the soon following APCs that this time frame was targeting around February, 2013.


    What's going to happen first, BMW, or the offering? If all is still on track with BMW, I'm guessing that BMW will be doing fleet testing before the offering.


    Further, TG stated at the same conference, that funds from the next cap raise will be (paraphrased), "Production oriented."


    So we may be limping along, but we also may be mere weeks from some real exciting news developing.


    We're in the January husky dog days, murmuring and muttering and grousing around during these news void days, enduring the longest time stretch between conference calls of the year.


    But we also may be just a few weeks away from ripping corks -- yes, that bottle of Moet is still chilled in my frig, awaiting...AXzzzzzPW breaking above 54 cents.


    Rah, rah, sisboombah!
    25 Jan 2013, 05:24 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe,
    I've had the Laurent-Perrier on ice for quite some time as well. Would like an occassion to consume it. Am doing taste-offs right now to see which wines I should be buying for storing. Someone has to do it.
    It is also Becherovka month.
    25 Jan 2013, 06:22 PM Reply Like
  • An insider's tip as passed to my wife by a dear friend with a fine cellar – avoid screw caps and artificial corks if you're thinking about storing a wine for more than a few months.
    25 Jan 2013, 06:28 PM Reply Like
  • Maya, i do recall these statements (and maybe I misunderstood them?) but I also remember him saying something about a 300% growth in sales in 2012 as well. Nothing seems to happen on schedule!
    25 Jan 2013, 06:42 PM Reply Like
  • Tony,
    That was an illusion. We thought he said that but it was an illusion. Go back to sleeep. was an ill....usion.
    25 Jan 2013, 06:59 PM Reply Like
  • Sometimes customers zig when you expect them to zag and they always think their schedule is more important than yours.


    Tom was overly optimistic in one conference call. He subsequently admitted his error and apologized.


    Wives who keep bringing up the same tired news over and over and over again are eventually labeled shrews, harpies or something more colorful.


    I for one am thoroughly fed up with instant replays from March of 2012.
    25 Jan 2013, 07:00 PM Reply Like
  • I recently learned that you can buy $10-$12 bottles of wine and if you leave them set for a few years they become more expensive wine (true).


    So either I will open a subpar $10 bottle of wine or i will open a $40 bottle that I bought for $10 bucks, either way it will taste good when Axion has long as I picked the one with the right cork.
    25 Jan 2013, 08:30 PM Reply Like
  • That trick is hard to do with $10 and $12 wines, but it works fabulously when you add a zero to the start price.
    25 Jan 2013, 08:31 PM Reply Like
  • The other thing to consider is that whatever price the offering goes off at, there is a decent chance the open market never sees that price. Their is nothing but stubborn gristle holding this stock at this point. It took over three months after the last offering before we ever saw .35, with NS, epower, the HUB, bmw fleet testing sooner or later, the irons are burning brighter.
    25 Jan 2013, 08:47 PM Reply Like
  • I can change the 1 to a 2 but I am SOL if I have to start adding zero's.
    25 Jan 2013, 08:49 PM Reply Like
  • I don't believe we would have ever seen trading at $.35 without a fund manager resignation at Manatuck Hill and a Blackrock decision to sell.


    Some of the $.35 buyers were happy to sell at $.42 because it gave them a quick 20% up and out on their money. None of the 2012 investors made a penny by selling at or below $.35.


    I'm personally convinced that the $.35 level was a pre-empt price that the big uglies established to keep the 2012 purchasers away from the pay window while they finished liquidating their positions.
    25 Jan 2013, 08:55 PM Reply Like
  • Do wine soaked damp rags age gracefully?
    25 Jan 2013, 08:57 PM Reply Like
  • Wine is a funny thing. It ages well. But grapes that have been harvested for a few years and are not hearty ,yet, do not age well, at all. A grape that has a strong foundation, years of heritage, lots of character; these grapes can mature into a great wine that improves upon its start through the years.


    Yep, add a zero before storing a wine for many years.
    25 Jan 2013, 08:58 PM Reply Like
  • Don't forget "the noble rot", aka sauterne.
    25 Jan 2013, 09:06 PM Reply Like
  • Yes the Noble squire says to the peasants. Please come tonight and pick the grapes with the rot on them. You can only do it in these frigid temperatures.
    So "sweet" of them. But that is how the noble people act toward the other 47%.


    Sorry, couldn't resist a political joke. My bad.
    25 Jan 2013, 09:12 PM Reply Like
  • used to drink Cristal before the rappers pushed the price to two, two-fitty :^(


    been getting by with Veuve every since :^)
    25 Jan 2013, 09:22 PM Reply Like
  • La grande dame. The trick is not only finding her, but finding her for the right price. One of my favorite quotes is by Madame Lilly Bollinger:


    “I only drink champagne when I'm happy and when I'm sad.
    Sometimes I drink it when I'm alone.
    When I have company I consider it obligatory.
    I trifle with it if I'm not in a hurry and drink it when I am, otherwise I never touch the stuff unless I am thirsty."
    25 Jan 2013, 09:31 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist:
    In an effort to depoliticize your politicizing, wasn't it the monks who discovered the botritis? Can't recall correctly and to lazy to look and besides, it is time to go to bed. Boa noite.
    25 Jan 2013, 09:40 PM Reply Like
  • When Rachel met Sally for the first time she knew it would be an enduring friendship because Sally had about eight cases of Le Grande Dame stored in the guest bathtub. The inventory has dwindled to less than a case over the years, but I've promised a resupply when Axion hits $5.
    25 Jan 2013, 09:44 PM Reply Like
  • Le Grande Dame be yummy. Sally rocks.


    Blew thru a couple of magnums of Doms, but my bud Mikey has a Jeroboam of it or similar make. He says you're supposed to open it with a sword. Maybe I'll punk him and shake the bottle first. But then again, he'll have a sword and I'll only have a champagne glass.
    25 Jan 2013, 09:56 PM Reply Like
  • >Mayascribe ... I guess "Blind Faith" is more than just the name of band. To hell with what the share price is or might be. I'd be willing to pop that cork if someone would just sign a supply contract for 1/10th of what New Castle can produce. That said, I don't drink fermented alcohol. I'll stick to my favored whiskey.
    25 Jan 2013, 10:26 PM Reply Like
  • Gentleman Jack?
    25 Jan 2013, 10:36 PM Reply Like
  • Maya,


    I have 2 bottles of DOM ( cir 1997 ) saved for AXPW to hit 1.50 pps. Hope I will make it soon, can't wait !!
    26 Jan 2013, 11:41 AM Reply Like
  • $10 and $12 for ONE bottle of wine? And you let it sit around for YEARS? Did you forget where you put it? Jeeze, I buy 3 liters at Winn Dixie for $10 on Friday and I go shopping again on Monday.
    26 Jan 2013, 01:00 PM Reply Like
  • I have two bottles of Boone's Farm Strawberry Hill, circa 1977, laid down for that special occasion.


    If adding a zero is the way to calculate properly aged wines, then they should be worth a small fortune, like $40, by now.


    Any of you want to celebrate with them when Axion hits a buck?
    26 Jan 2013, 01:34 PM Reply Like
  • >Smaturin ... Sadly, I'll pass on that. I'd like to live long enough to see Axion hit a buck & a half.
    26 Jan 2013, 01:39 PM Reply Like
  • I think my Mad Dog 20/20s gotta be worth a small fortune by now. Will trade for AXPW, though.
    26 Jan 2013, 02:41 PM Reply Like
  • Mad Dog, Boones Farm?? I only went for the good stuff - TJ Swann's Easy Nights, or if I really was splurging on a hot date - Blue Nun.
    26 Jan 2013, 02:55 PM Reply Like
  • ... or Mateus for the sure thing.
    26 Jan 2013, 02:57 PM Reply Like
  • Mr I,
    As a young fool many years ago, I spent many nights with my head stuck in a snow bank calling Ralph. Unsavory memories of Mad Dog 20/20. :-0
    26 Jan 2013, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • While I'd love to be 25 and understand everything I know today, some days of youthful foolishness just aren't worth a sequel.
    26 Jan 2013, 03:13 PM Reply Like
  • Great quote, metro. Reminds me of when I was young my dad taught me three important rules regarding drinking;


    Only drink if you are alone or with somebody
    Only drink on weekdays or weekends
    And then only on days that end in "Y".


    My dad was a wise man and I have followed those rules for many years.


    My wife already calls me a liquor snob because I only buy good stuff. Looking forward to being able to even take that up a notch due to Axion.
    26 Jan 2013, 03:34 PM Reply Like
  • Boones Farm, eh? The good stuff. I had a friend who use to make wine with Kool Ade and put it in Ripple bottles. The ones that didn't explode, we drank.
    26 Jan 2013, 08:22 PM Reply Like
  • Cider
    2 cups sugar
    1 pound of raisins
    in 2 weeks you have a gallon of some darn fine apple jack.
    Keeping it hidden from mom, can be a problem and it draws bees if left outside.


    Don't use the ventilation system! It sends the smell all over the house.
    26 Jan 2013, 08:55 PM Reply Like
  • I am not sure how an Axionista is to respond to posts concerning:
    home brew, MD20/20, Boones farm, and the Grand Dame.


    Except to say that some day we will all raise a glass of our favorite spirit to those that brought Axion to success. Hopefully many of us can do that together.
    26 Jan 2013, 09:07 PM Reply Like
  • Another question about PbCs versus lead-acids that arises from time to time is how the self discharge rates compare.
    25 Jan 2013, 07:16 PM Reply Like
  • That's a definite Ed question.
    25 Jan 2013, 07:19 PM Reply Like
  • I just posted a new Instablog that explains how Axion's monthly average "short sales as a percentage of total volume" have plummeted since the end of October. We now have two months that are basically 2 Sigma events from the average of the preceding 34 months. The new Instablog is here:



    The raw data for our statistically inclined brethren is here.

    25 Jan 2013, 08:29 PM Reply Like
  • Sorry if this was posted I missed it.


    787 battery blew up in ’06 lab test, burned down building

    26 Jan 2013, 09:09 AM Reply Like
  • Ed or JP or anyone else


    I have enjoyed what Ed Buiel has brought to the APC.


    Could we have the background on Ed


    Nothing on his profile - but I believe John had said he was with Axion at some stage


    Thank you
    26 Jan 2013, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • Axion's September 2005 Press Release on Dr. Buiel's hiring included the following summary description of his experience and education:


    Before joining Axion, Dr. Buiel served for 3-1/2 years as project leader for the Energy Storage Group of Meadwestvaco Corporation (NYSE: MWV), one of the largest producers of activated carbon in the world. In this position Dr. Buiel’s team focused on developing activated carbon materials for electrochemical applications including Lithium-ion batteries, organic ultracapacitors, and asymmetric lead-carbon capacitors. His responsibilities included managing a USCAR–Advanced Battery Consortium ( project to develop activated carbon materials for hybrid electric vehicle (“HEV”) energy storage systems and managing a joint program with Sandia National Laboratories ( to develop lead-carbon capacitors for grid-connected energy storage systems. Previously, Dr. Buiel worked for nine months as a senior software engineer for Vasocor, Inc. and for 2-1/2 years as a Senior Research Engineer for the Automotive Carbon Group of Meadwestvaco Corporation. Dr. Buiel is a 1994 graduate of Queen’s University, Kingston, Ontario, where he earned a Bachelor of Science in Engineering and Physics, and a 1998 graduate of Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, where he earned a PhD in Physics and wrote his doctoral thesis on “The Development of Disordered Carbon Materials as Anode Materials for Li-ion Battery Applications.”
    26 Jan 2013, 11:18 AM Reply Like
  • Is Dr. Buiel still at Axion?
    26 Jan 2013, 03:29 PM Reply Like
  • Ed left Axion a year or two ago but he's recently started participating in the Concentrators and answering some of the difficult technical questions that are out of my depth.
    26 Jan 2013, 03:31 PM Reply Like
  • Is it a coincidence that "RoseWater joins Queen's University on Energy Storage Study; Concentrator 174"?
    27 Jan 2013, 06:47 AM Reply Like
  • I don't think Ed had anything to do with the Rosewater project.
    27 Jan 2013, 06:55 AM Reply Like
  • Queen's is typically one of the best engineering schools (1st or 2nd in ratings every year) in Canada and located in Ontario. They are very aggressive. I have almost no ties to Queen's.
    4 Feb 2013, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • Energy Storage is Injecting Itself Into Utility Markets


    Duke and Toronto Hydro Unveil Two Projects
    Ken Silverstein | Jan 24, 2013



    Covers the recently mentioned Duke Wind Storage project, but also mentions decentralized ideas in Canada ... which perhaps Rosewater is involved with ... page down here (where sadly, there's nothing "late breaking" ... YET):


    November 2012


    RoseWater joins Queen's University on Energy Storage Study


    Testing will determine the effects of residential energy storage systems on local power grids
    26 Jan 2013, 12:27 PM Reply Like
  • "The company says that its technology is like taking thousands of cell phone batteries and putting them together so that the enterprise will have a system capable of storing power and then delivering that energy when it is needed. Unlike other technologies, Toronto Hydro says that its batteries will be installed at the customers’ premises, not at a remote, central site. "


    Putting thousands of cellphone batteries together in an uncontrolled, populated customer site - what could possibly go wrong?


    26 Jan 2013, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • Several great new posts by JP from the article, "8 Breakout Stocks in Energy Storage" for those who may have missed it. Here's a link:



    Here's the first paragraph from this link:


    ... "First tier customers buying batteries for their mainline products move stock prices. I have never seen a nano-cap company with a stable of likely first tier customers that even remotely compares with the all-star roster of companies who are testing and beginning to order the PbC. When the first major customer relationship solidifies, the other potential relationships will rapidly transition in the market's mind from possible to likely... "
    26 Jan 2013, 01:49 PM Reply Like
  • Axionistas, I enjoy light hearted camaraderie as much as most but in this venue it imposes a price some busy people might not be inclined to pay. Could we move the signal to noise ration a bit back toward stronger signal?
    26 Jan 2013, 01:59 PM Reply Like
  • Aw, come on, man, it's Saturday.. Isn't it?
    26 Jan 2013, 08:25 PM Reply Like
  • Off topic: Does anyone have contacts at a newspaper in Minnesota? (Minnesota Star Tribune, etc.). Please PM me if you do, ASAP.
    26 Jan 2013, 02:14 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks John


    Ed, this from a fellow Maritimer. I am in Fredericton and visit Halifax every month or two. Great city for anyone interested in a clean, Oceanside, smaller Canadian city with very friendly people and a surprising number of great restaurants to enjoy. Seafood even


    I join others in welcoming Ed and appreciate his commitment to contributing to the APC


    I have assisted and/or been financially involved in a number of businesses. If a business technology has a strong value proposition all that is need is a wise and determined management to execute with patience and persistence thru the inevitable ups and downs they face


    My personal stake in AXPW has been made with the long term in mind. I do not care about the day to day or month to month gyrations of the stock price.


    Given his unique background, I have 4 questions I would appreciate Ed's thoughts on


    I would hope his answers will add confidence to all who follow the APC - but accept that they may not:


    1. Is he comfortable that TG and Management are focused on the best commercial possibilities for the PBc technology


    2. What is his best guess as to when AXPW technology will be producing positive, meaningful financial results for shareholders


    3. what is the greatest risk he sees to reaching profitable results


    4. Lastly, does Ed have a continuing financial interest in any future success of AXPW


    I look forward to Ed's answers and thank him in advance for them
    26 Jan 2013, 02:14 PM Reply Like
  • dimca - not knowing whether Ed is still with AXPW or not, my experience tells me that the answers to your 4 questions should be yes, yes, yes, and yes, period.


    Or, no comment.
    26 Jan 2013, 03:34 PM Reply Like
  • Dimca
    1. Is he comfortable that TG and Management are focused on the best commercial possibilities for the PBc technology
    I would think
    Not my area of expertise. He has suggested they go faster.
    I also think as he worked with them for some years he has some faith in them.


    2. What is his best guess as to when AXPW technology will be producing positive, meaningful financial results for shareholders


    He's the tech guy not the stock guy.


    3. what is the greatest risk he sees to reaching profitable results


    Tech guy not the CFO.
    I would ask:
    What is the greatest risk he sees to the battery.


    4. Lastly, does Ed have a continuing financial interest in any future success of AXPW


    Not our business. After we get to know him and he us, perhaps he will chose to answer that or not.
    According to Business week he had 250,000 Exercisable Options
    No details on them. I'm not sure when the page was updated but it says he is no longer at Axion. So not too long ago.

    26 Jan 2013, 09:35 PM Reply Like
  • Sorry for the late reply - I wish this board would email me when I have someone ask me a question.


    Here are the answers:


    0. From above and below, I am no longer a part of Axion. I have not worked for Axion outside some minor help to maintain customers and answer questions since Dec/2010.


    1. I believe TG and management is focused on some of the best commercial possibilities. I believe there are other opportunities and I believe they could be more aggressive. However, it is easy to criticize from the outside and to be fair to Tom and the management team, I might always say they should be more aggressive until they are cash flow positive. On the other hand, these are difficult technical sales campaigns and it always takes a lot of time to see revenue - maybe two years. Look at Maxwell sales - they are now over the hump but it took a good 10 years. I don't think it will take that long with Axion but you need to cast a big net and be aggressive.


    2. I would just be guessing at this point. My real data is two years out and I bet there are people on this forum that are more in tune with Axion's current status than I am.


    3. When will the sales come and will they be able to manage cash flow and avoid bankruptcy? I think this is the big questions. The flooded lead acid battery sales are clearly helping them in this regard but the PbC sales have to start coming.


    4. I do continue to have a financial interest in Axion. It is not as big as it used to be, but this is largely due to my financial adviser's persistence to diversify.
    4 Feb 2013, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks Dr. Buiel,


    Perhaps an e-mail alert could be arranged. You'd be getting a lot of e-mails, you are very popular here!
    4 Feb 2013, 11:33 AM Reply Like