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  • Ishikawa
    , contributor
    Comments (177) | Send Message
     
    me first ?
    23 Feb 2013, 11:31 AM Reply Like
  • pascquale
    , contributor
    Comments (97) | Send Message
     
    third
    23 Feb 2013, 11:40 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7634) | Send Message
     
    Did I make the podium?
    23 Feb 2013, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo
    , contributor
    Comments (350) | Send Message
     
    curses
    23 Feb 2013, 12:04 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1412) | Send Message
     
    You know, in other boards, a cap raise delay usually incites some speculation of a deal going on behind the scenes. We're used to doom and gloom I guess.
    23 Feb 2013, 12:06 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Ranma, I think that was implied in 48's and my "It's too darn quiet" banter.
    23 Feb 2013, 12:36 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2235) | Send Message
     
    There was a very interesting debate at the end of the last concentrator asking if it was management or the technology that was the cause of a lack of sales progress. I wish it had continued to some conclusion.

     

    The lack of sales, the current stock price and the next capital raise has created the perfect storm. It will be fascinating to watch how it all plays out over the next few weeks.
    23 Feb 2013, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1824) | Send Message
     
    Personally, I think it's neither the technology nor management that is the cause of today's AXPW price doldrums.

     

    I think it's just the nature of the beast. We've discussed these factors to death: entrenched interests, cautious prospects, hype over competing technologies. These factors and more have delayed adoption of and reduced investment in our beloved PbC.

     

    I understand the frustration and feel it myself regularly. But I remind myself that there are no guarantees in this game and that, for me, the potential reward is worth the risk.

     

    Since no one has said it in awhile, I'll remind you of a little expression of which many of us were once quite fond:

     

    Vivan Los Axionistas!

     

    D
    23 Feb 2013, 01:26 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    IMO incumbent management has a rapidly shrinking window of opportunity to deliver some significant commercial sales.

     

    The fact that a capital raise has not been announced to date certainly raises possibility that one or more such sales have occurred but not yet disclosed at insistence of the buyer. OR, absence of news about a raise could reflect deferral of timing for the raise by positive cash flow in January. NSC's battery order was filled, receipt of DOE funds on the $150K grant awarded last May/June could have been realized, strong toll contract deliveries, etc.
    23 Feb 2013, 02:09 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    D-Inv: good thoughts! We need some balance of possibilities. The negatives have been weighed, and appropriately, as part of the risk assessment. It's easy to forget that positives, in the near-term are also possible.

     

    Thanks for reminding ... even if no one believes! ;-))

     

    HrdToLove
    23 Feb 2013, 03:28 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    I have no experience in this area so for those that do.

     

    TG talked about a possible strategic partner.
    What are the ramifications of this and what might be going on behind the scenes?
    23 Feb 2013, 03:40 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >froggey77 ... What does "strategic partner" mean? Well, I think, it could mean just about anything you might want to imagine it meaning. A full range of options from good to bad. A joint venture development or marketing relationship, a manufacturing partnership, product channel access, a Venture Capital firm invest, a search for a buyer of the company or any one of a dozen other things. I just don't know and won't until it is discussed or revealed.
    23 Feb 2013, 04:00 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2235) | Send Message
     
    Agreed DRich
    23 Feb 2013, 04:12 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2334) | Send Message
     
    Bang,

     

    Uncertainty is normally bad for pps. All in all management will likely be judged on how well they do on the cap raise in the next month or so.

     

    I personally think sales progress is affected by this uncertainty. Not many established companies would want to do long term business with a micro company that run on fumes and only has a 12+ month runway even when relatively flush.

     

    I really hope the next raise is some time of partnership.
    25 Feb 2013, 07:43 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    DRich
    Actually I thought I had a handle on the strategic partner part.
    Seems I was wrong.

     

    I was wondering if anything might be going on in the shadows with partners unknown. As opposed to starting at square one again.
    25 Feb 2013, 10:02 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >froggey77 ... Maybe you do have a handle on what constitutes a "strategic partner". It's entirely possible that I'm the one wandering around & lost. It's a common condition for me. I'm just not clear on what the strategy is ...
    25 Feb 2013, 10:46 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Energy Storage Innovation: ARPA-E’s RANGE Program

     

    http://bit.ly/X38o1t

     

    This is a follow on program to build on the success of the much acclaimed FAILURE program ( Fully Admit I Limited Ur Range Expectations).
    23 Feb 2013, 12:46 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    The electric vehicle is ready. Are you?

     

    "The high bar set by the engineers contributed to the meme that batteries aren’t advanced enough yet for electric cars, but in fact they are more than capable for powering the kind of electric car people most want. Axsen interviewed people to find out what kind of battery would be sufficient for the types of cars they were most interested in. People were most interested in the plug in hybrids, like the Prius, which require smaller batteries well within the capacity of the Nickel Metal Hydride technology."

     

    http://bit.ly/13zptiE
    23 Feb 2013, 02:13 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7634) | Send Message
     
    "People were most interested in the plug in hybrids, like the Prius, which require smaller batteries well within the capacity of the Nickel Metal Hydride technology."

     

    Um, the plug in Prius uses lithium ion batteries.
    Other than that it was an interesting piece on the perceptions and realities of car owners.
    24 Feb 2013, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (835) | Send Message
     
    I seem to recall Axion hired extra personnel in the past few months, but I don't remember the ramifications of this being discussed much on the board. Given TG and Co. have been been forced to be extremely conservative with their available financial resources for many years now, I would think this hiring would indicate quite a high level of optimism within the company for the near term. -- Make sense?
    23 Feb 2013, 03:10 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    WIO, I think that was awhile ago. If I recall correctly one was production level support and one was in the quality arena. I expected the quality person was to set up systems required in automotive and probably rail. Tons and tons of effort required in this area required for certification.
    23 Feb 2013, 03:19 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (835) | Send Message
     
    Thanks iindelco. My recollection was that it was about half a dozen or so new hires, but my recollective faculty doesn't always work so great!
    23 Feb 2013, 03:44 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    WIO, Yeah. And maybe it's my recollection that's off. I do remember the positions I mentioned, one being floor support technical trades and the other being quality systems, but there might in fact be others as well.
    23 Feb 2013, 03:54 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    02/22/2014: EOD stuff partially copied to instablog (up much later).
    # Trds: 27, MinTrSz: 500, MaxTrSz: 15000, Vol 115700, AvTrSz: 4285
    Min. Pr: 0.2880, Max Pr: 0.3108, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2932
    # Buys, Shares: 11 40222, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.2959
    # Sells, Shares: 14 65478, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2919,
    # Unkn, Shares: 2 10000, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.2910
    Buy:Sell 1:1.63 (34.8% “buys”), DlyShts 20000 (17.29%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 30.54%

     

    In the traditional TA arena, we had better volume today and it looked like $0.29 would hold again until the last 17 minutes. Then we had two lousy small trades, probably by someone that forgot to take their meds ;-)) and had the typical late-day jitters.

     

    Here's a breakdown of the ranges, for context.
    $0.2880-$0.2880: 003751, 03.24% of volume, VWAP $0.2880
    $0.2900-$0.2940: 62599, 54.10% of volume, VWAP $0.2907
    $0.2950-$0.2990: 37500, 32.41% of volume, VWAP $0.2955
    $0.3000-$0.3000: 11850, 10.24% of volume, VWAP $0.3009

     

    If those two $0.2880 trades at 15:30:14 and 15:43:31 hadn't come in, apparently the typical late-day weakness we've seen so often, it wouldn't have been a bad day at all as we would've seen the $0.29 continue to act as support and a high within 1/100th of a penny of the recent $0.3109 on Wednesday. Come to think of it, I think I'll just ignore them and focus on the “strengthening” that also appeared, in the last 15 minutes. We had three trades totaling 15K shares, two trades at $0.29 for 10K and one trade at $0.2990 of 5K. This doesn't change anything, but I feel better looking at a half-full glass.

     

    With this low volume there's really not much I'd hang my hat on here – oscillators I watch had some steady, some improving and some a tad weaker. No moves big enough to even comment on. We do continue to separate a bit from my experimental 13-period Bollinger lower band, now at $0.2868 and marked down from yesterday's $0.2893.

     

    We shouldn't overlook that we closed higher, at $0.299, than we opened, $0.292. Traditional chartists will note this, as well as the fact that we closed down a smidgen, 11/100ths of a cent, from yesterday's $0.3001.

     

    There may be some good news. IIRC, UBSS had been showing offers for some time now that suggested folks were trying to get out and having no success. Today, and a little yesterday, I saw their offers get taken. After the close today, when often a lot of bids and asks get “uncovered” as potential trades are canceled, their best ask had moved back up to $0.31. TEJS was showing $0.309 and NITE was showing $0.319 as their best asks. We had been seeing successive UBSS offers over time moving lower, getting into the low $0.30xx area yesterday (IIRC) and finally the $0.29xx area today. So maybe that little slice of weakness is gone. We'll see.

     

    I wonder if today's $0.288 was a typical overshoot? With the low volume at that area, I suspect it's so. Again, we'll see.

     

    On my experimental charts stuff, average trade size remains low, buy:sell is back near normal today, volume remains well below all the averages (in thousands: 202, 213, 355 and 338 for the 10, 25, 50 and 100-day SMAs respectively), daily short sales remain low and my experimental inflection points lost most of their brief upward movement bias for now and have a slight negative movement starting. Without volume I can't say any of this is at all meaningful though.

     

    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.

     

    HardToLove
    23 Feb 2013, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Consortium seeks to show total cost of EVs can be less than combustion engine reference car

     

    http://bit.ly/VZIxJp
    23 Feb 2013, 04:10 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    If somebody wants to pay me $2.6 million I'll prove that EVs can be cheaper than an ICE reference car, but only if they pay me up front so I can buy a mess of Axion in case I'm wrong. After all, lawyers are trained to argue both sides of a case with equal alacrity.
    23 Feb 2013, 05:32 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    John, You mean to tell me that they actually have deliverables. This must be some of that HARD government contract work.

     

    What's funniest is that you can't tell me for a moment that they need to actually do this physically and that there is not enough data out there to have a couple undergraduate engineers put something together that will be just as good as what this will prove. This is a joke.

     

    Just about as scientific as having a reporter driving under conditions A and another driving under conditions B and trying to have a meaningful discussion about their differing impressions in newspaper articles.
    23 Feb 2013, 06:01 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    I liked it. They are looking for jobs where EVs can compete. That starts with the admission in the average case EVs are not economical. They will be looking for niches. Two grad students could do it, but at least they appear to be starting in the right place rather than a hopium piece.

     

    "If electric mobility is to be successful in Europe, it has to be economically efficient. We are looking for applications in which electric vehicles are cheaper than a reference car with a combustion engine. If the vehicle is used often, costs can be reduced considerably and the high purchasing price is compensated.
    —Dr. Olaf Wollersheim, head of the RheinMobil showcase project at KIT"
    23 Feb 2013, 06:10 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    Froggey77: That means they're implicitly buying into JP's long espoused economic assessment that batteries need to be cycled frequently to justify replacement of gas tanks with batteries. if I understood that correctly.

     

    HardToLove
    23 Feb 2013, 09:14 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >H.T.Love ... Batteries economics are all about cycles. It is why large packs (company that can not be named) or those with plugs (GM Volt) suck & why a Prius (without plug) is such a good design. Efficiency matters ... all the time ... but not to all people.
    23 Feb 2013, 09:38 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    DRich: "company that can not be named"

     

    Bless you sir! :-))

     

    HardToLove
    24 Feb 2013, 08:00 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    Jalopnik has a long article on mechanical issues with the model-S based on a thread at the Tesla Motor Club.

     

    Jalopnik's article is
    http://bit.ly/15bT6JI
    The Tesla Model S Is The World's Most Expensive Beta Test

     

    The TMC thread is here
    http://bit.ly/X3JfUq
    23 Feb 2013, 09:06 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    I can't imagine paying $100,000 to participate in the great EV experiment.

     

    I wonder how many Tesla buyers understand that while the E stands for Electric, it also stands for Experimental.

     

    Perhaps I should start referring to the Model S an EEV and the buyers as guinea pigs.
    23 Feb 2013, 10:08 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo
    , contributor
    Comments (350) | Send Message
     
    John,

     

    I have a better idea--TRBO: Tesla Rental By Owner.

     

    No extra charge for karmic carbon credits.
    24 Feb 2013, 12:22 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4639) | Send Message
     
    It would be better if you refrained from commenting on Tesla at all on this APC and focused on AXPW . There is a Tesla APC to discuss it.
    Many of us are tired of this conversation and distraction not to mention the number of posts we have to sort thru to find anything on AXPW.
    24 Feb 2013, 05:11 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (783) | Send Message
     
    Hy LT.:

     

    I agree: ...Many of us are tired of this conversation and distraction not to mention the number of posts we have to sort thru to find anything on AXPW.

     

    Have a good day-Carlos.
    24 Feb 2013, 06:24 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Can't speak for all the problems but a door that unlatches while the car is moving is a recallable event requiring engineering analysis to confirm the corrective action is adequate. There might be exceptions so it's hard to say this as a 100% assured requirement based on limited info. Wipers are also covered by FMVSS but no info. given on what the issue is. If it's just annoying things like chatter or ghosting it may not be a recallable event.

     

    All and all these types of things are to be expected from a pretty much virgin car company. Put all those carbon units in a vehicle and they are bound to do things you wouldn't consider in a million years.
    23 Feb 2013, 10:00 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    "... they are bound to do things you wouldn't consider in a million years. "

     

    Sort of sounds like description of the 1.5 - 3 yr old behavior.
    23 Feb 2013, 11:32 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    D-inv, For sure. Perhaps "child proofing"? OH, That would be taking the ability to start the vehicle away! The range anxiety of an16-18 YO.
    24 Feb 2013, 06:48 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    Range anxiety of a 16 year old.

     

    "Mom - Dad. Can we reach there yet?
    24 Feb 2013, 08:15 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3311) | Send Message
     
    OBE...now they just shrug and get back to their smartphones/tablets. The only other sign of life is when entering a drive-thru...
    24 Feb 2013, 08:23 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Some Posrche thoughts.

     

    Mark Phelan: Porsche keeping its power options open

     

    "A diesel-powered version of the iconic 911 Carrera sports car is off the table -- probably -- but every other combination of current and future technologies is in play as Porsche gears up to meet upcoming fuel-economy and emissions limits in Europe, the U.S. and China.

     

    "There's no one solution," Wolfgang Hatz, Porsche R&D chief, told me during the North American International Auto Show last month. "Our strategy must rely on more than one pillar.""
    -
    "Porsche will continue to obsess on shaving every excess ounce from its vehicles to save fuel. It will also add stop-start to all its vehicles, and make wider use of the "sailing" feature that shuts the engine off when you're coasting on the road."

     

    http://bit.ly/13531lW
    24 Feb 2013, 07:15 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    OK y'all. Get ready to smile! Warm up your cheeks a little first to prevent cracks cuz it's gonna be a big one.

     

    http://bit.ly/ykGiof

     

    http://bit.ly/1240Tvn
    24 Feb 2013, 12:23 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2122) | Send Message
     
    WOW!

     

    Am I reading that right?

     

    Those links are saying that Combatec has finished testing a load of batteries from Axion and shipped them back home to the company last week.

     

    amazing sleuthing, iind!
    24 Feb 2013, 12:32 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    Their customer reference list is more than a little impressive.

     

    http://bit.ly/UXTCZU
    24 Feb 2013, 12:33 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    Sooooo....

     

    We know that the 3rd Party tests have been done, and the PbC batteries have been shipped back to Axion...

     

    Now we wait for news of the results, as usual.
    24 Feb 2013, 12:35 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    "Now we wait for news of the results, as usual. "

     

    Those NDAs just keep getting in the way of info.
    24 Feb 2013, 01:04 PM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1824) | Send Message
     
    Would they be under an NDA regarding the results of this independent 3rd party testing?

     

    Seems like something we could ask about at the cc.

     

    D
    24 Feb 2013, 01:07 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >D.McHattie ... I would guess that the results are under a NDA because I'd bet "dollars to doughnuts" BMW or NSC paid for that testing.

     

    Thanks iindelco. This comes under the heading of good news. It will be even better when the official channels make it public.
    24 Feb 2013, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2095) | Send Message
     
    After iind's link to the battery returns, a mention during the CC that automotive is on going will be enough info (maybe not as much as the technical types would like). I would like to throw out a word of caution, last year there was a lot of speculation, harsh words and hard feelings in anticipation of and just after the capital raise. Please remember to be polite and patient, to each other and to those on the CC.
    24 Feb 2013, 01:35 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Quite a list indeed.

     

    I wonder if Dr. Buiel has worked with or is familiar with them at all?

     

    I noted they mention testing expertise in NiCd and LAB's but seem not to offer services in NiMH and lithium ion. This would seem to make them more EU focused and this is kind of supported by their client list.

     

    Well, all in all, it's nice to see a shadow through the etched window supporting out efforts to determine progress levels. Now where's that unique locomotive. Can't hide them once they start moving. Heck, maybe you can arrange a ride with WTB or DRich! That's another picture I wouldn't mind seeing.
    24 Feb 2013, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (694) | Send Message
     
    No sign of Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (BMW) in the list of referees.

     

    Maybe some subsidiary is the client or the list is not current or maybe the testing was not done for BMW.

     

    Also just because batteries are being returned to Axion does not guarantee that the testing was successful.

     

    If the testing was done for an auto manufacturer why would they be sending the batteries back to Axion?

     

    With that said..........Whopeee!
    24 Feb 2013, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    "a mention during the CC that automotive is on going will be enough info (maybe not as much as the technical types would like)."

     

    Not even for non-technical types, Still. Mention of automotive still "on going" could mean nothing more than continuation of work on the May/June DOE $150K grant award and refining of follow up proposal for the second stage of DOE's 3 year exercise.
    24 Feb 2013, 01:53 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Albert, Sure, they are there. "BMW AG"
    24 Feb 2013, 01:54 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2095) | Send Message
     
    D-inv,
    Ouch, forgot about that. How about that European automotive is still on going?
    24 Feb 2013, 02:02 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (694) | Send Message
     
    Please accept my most humble apology. I wanted it so much I couldn't see it.
    Put it down to too much whiskey after Scotland's win over Ireland in the 6 Nations Rugby.
    24 Feb 2013, 02:02 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    D. McHattie: with the testing already done at Axion, (NSC), U of Pa, ...

     

    Is there any doubt about the results? Not in my mind. The only possibility I could see that might result in a less favorable outcome is if they decided to throw in some new testing regimes that they had never before considered.

     

    That would be a low blow and not what I'd anticipate third-party verification of results to encompass.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Feb 2013, 02:03 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    Materials shipped by Combatec are described as "batteries". Would be interesting to know whether shippers distinguish between "batteries" and "battery parts". Observation arises from Combatec's description of services provided which distinguishes between and "electrical" and "mechanical". Regarding "Mechanical Analysise" the web site states
    <
    In addition to the electrical test, the production quality or possible reasons for failure can be detailed by disassembling of the batteries. During this mechanical analysis, we carry out a comprehensive and systematic evaluation of the components, which are disassembled separately to determine their detailed condition.
    <
    24 Feb 2013, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >H.T.Love ... I'm with you as to "No Doubt" and been that way for years. I wish this were a more popular market involved stock so we could see some front-running to confirm results. Best hope for anything like that would be from ePower making a statement because I don't thing Mr. Granville will.
    24 Feb 2013, 02:13 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Albert, It is true that batteries being returned to Axion does not guarantee completion of testing nor success. But since this is in the time frame when completion is expected it does give us a better feel that testing is most probably complete and we should hear feedback during the next cc. It's also confirmation that third party testing has or is happening. So we have confirmation of TG's words. Trust but verify.

     

    Concerning the return of the batteries. It's just plain good scientific/business practice to have the expert of the technology review your parts/data/report to confirm that what you are delivering to your customer is correct. There is no better expert in the world on this technology that Axion. All three parties that have an interest in the outcome of this testing would want to make sure the findings are accurate. This requires that Axion review all of the materials including the dissected parts.

     

    One other reason Axion might like the batteries returned is to keep the parts out of other third party hands as long as possible. Not as important perhaps as my prior point but still likely.
    24 Feb 2013, 02:25 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    DR .. ePower has a record of taking 2.5X - 3X longer to achieve a milestone than was initially suggested. At last report they were looking to raise the rig weight factor from 50K lbs to 80K lbs and to increase the DoD from 1V (11v down to 10V) to 6V (11V down to 5V) over the following two weeks.

     

    I'm not looking for any more news on ePower before mid-March at the earliest.
    24 Feb 2013, 02:27 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Albert, Scottish or Irish whiskey and did your choice compliment your hoped for outcome ( Which would be second to a great match.).
    24 Feb 2013, 02:42 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >D-inv ... I don't know much history or current behind ePower and their road forward. If there were something to happen on that front and it would be the mid-March time, I'd think that just fine and actually be quicker than I have thought.
    24 Feb 2013, 02:59 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    DSP Award given to Iindelco. (Deerstalker and Pipe Award -- for those that forget)
    24 Feb 2013, 03:03 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (694) | Send Message
     
    I appreciate the dilemma.

     

    My wife really supports Wales but runner up is Scotland. Her favourite tipple is Lagavulin.
    I support France but am very happy to sample Bushmills when the occasion presents itself.
    24 Feb 2013, 03:06 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    D-Inv: You are correct, but ...

     

    It's a *very* short record with only a couple "data points".

     

    Among them is a stated failure of a generator that held things up.

     

    I think it's important, since sentiment is already so "iffy" here, to keep a perspective which is more encompassing when a "blanket statement" is issued.

     

    This doesn't mean I think they'll hit whatever (*our*) next milepost dates might be, but it may be more likely or less delayed.

     

    xxx <<--- fingers crossed.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    24 Feb 2013, 05:48 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >H.T.Love ... The next (only) milestone we have from ePower is what they advertise on the website. The Mid-America Trucking Show; 31 March-2April : Louisville, KY where it is hoped for on this forum that we will see an Axion enabled commercial truck, but that is not a sure bet other than they say they'll have a booth. The unofficial milestone would be what JP knows of the return of a demonstrator to a trucking firm in the Mid-West for road testing.

     

    All rumor & conjecture with nothing solid. Nothing yet that would move the stock up or keep the next finance round from going off at a large discount. In other words, things are progressing in a normal manner.
    24 Feb 2013, 06:01 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3311) | Send Message
     
    I think it might also be useful to keep in mind that for ePower, all the Axion stuff is a fairly recent development for them... they go from an extended period of kind of hitting their heads against a wall with AGM, prolly kind of a SSDD sort of routine, and then in a relatively short time, all of a sudden they have the PbC in their lap, with all its attendant potential and differences, kind of a logjam breaking...and so ISTM they kind of had to spool up as an organization to really get back to moving forward smoothly as a team.. Just my impression/speculation of course but I kinda visualize a bunch of guys trying for a while to force their way into a stuck set of double doors, when all of a sudden the bolt gives way and everybody spills on into the next room... takes a while to get everybody on their feet and up to speed with the new game that just suddenly changed...
    24 Feb 2013, 06:02 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    DRich> The website reference to the Mid-America expo is a 2011 vintage announcement. – http://bit.ly/QaY0lE

     

    When Brad and I went to visit, ePower mentioned a possible participation in the upcoming Green Truck Summit in Indianapolis, but there's no way to know whether they'll be ready by then. –http://bit.ly/UYHEiq
    24 Feb 2013, 06:09 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (781) | Send Message
     
    JP,

     

    It appears that the show is sold out and I do not see e Powers name on the exhibitors list!

     

    http://bit.ly/UYHEiq
    24 Feb 2013, 06:22 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... My bad for not following up to the actual event. Truck & car shows are not my thing & I don't track or attend very many. I see that the one, GTS in Indianapolis, is early March. Personally, I don't think that is likely for several reasons. I believe that only having the PbC in possession for roughly 2 months is not enough time to design, make, test & verify the differences the PbC would force in their system. Then again they might just be that lucky and/or good. Me, personally, if I got the PbC to work and greatly improve a system I'd been trying to perfect for almost a decade, I most likely just stare in amazement for the first month and watch it work.
    24 Feb 2013, 06:27 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    We didn't get into a detailed discussion so I can't offer any additional color. That being said, events like this one typically sell out months in advance so I don't know that the lack of a booth equals the lack of a meaningful presence.
    24 Feb 2013, 06:37 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    Yahoo!! Go Axion !!
    24 Feb 2013, 07:07 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco, et al: Regarding these batteries returning from third-party verification, ISTM there's some implications that might be worth discussing. In my ignorance ...

     

    1) In our current envisioned scenario, only the electrical properties have long-term value - the batteries perform as expected regarding DCA, voltage profiles, capacity, ... because ...

     

    2) AXPW can't produce enough for more than fleet testing. If a tier-one supplier is required to be the primary supplier or even a secondary supplier, the mechanical properties, manufacturing process, ... are determined by that supplier, so ... Is further testing needed before other than fleet test or small-volume production could be considered?

     

    3) Is it likely that some (small) initial fleet testing was going on concurrently as D-Inv's rumor mill post would suggest (I wish he weren't joking)? This seems to me to be a reasonable scenario as the approaching deadlines and lack of, IMO, reasonable product offerings from the majors would dictate that testing and verification overlap as much as possible when early confidence suggests a high chance of success.

     

    4) Regardless of the above, if BMW is indeed firing shots across the bow, they now have a larger ball to put in that canon.

     

    5) This might also lead to the "whisper in the ear" we conjectured was all that is needed to get some tier-one supplier to come to the Axion table.

     

    6) We know Axion has a grant from the DOE to develop a two-battery solution. Any customer coming to the Axion table gets that development expertise, and the knowledge acquired, at little or no cost to them. Since this would be predominately electronics and software mating the standard SLI battery with a PbC, which now has at least third-party verification, ... See where it could lead?

     

    Thoughts? Please correct any ignorance I've displayed. I was going to add more but it's not related to these batteries coming back.

     

    Thanks for any thoughts,
    HardToLove
    24 Feb 2013, 08:12 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4639) | Send Message
     
    HTL, it should not take AXPW very long to develop that 2 battery system. They already have most of it in the PC & HUB. Not counting the years of experience with BMW.
    24 Feb 2013, 09:25 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    HT ... :-) My rumor mongering was only partly in jest.

     

    If batteries were returned to Axion then the tested product was not disassembled and "mechanically analysised". If battery parts were returned to Axion then they were disassembled and analyzed.

     

    TG publicly disclosed two facts -- 1) that BMW had contracted/initiated 3rd party testing and 2) the test protocols could run six-to-eight months, presumably to verify test results already obtained by Axion and BMW. TG also suggested the testing could be terminated early if the 3rd party was merely confirming prior findings by Axion and BMW, but that possible early termination could have been nothing more than reasoned inference/speculation. AND, nothing TG stated in the last CC touched on test venue or modality -- only that testing by an independent part was underway.

     

    IIRC, TG had indicated in earlier CCs that BMW had placed some PbCs in a limited number of vehicles. There is no reason to presume all, or even part, of the 3rd party testing was undertaken in an enclosed lab.
    24 Feb 2013, 09:28 PM Reply Like
  • mds5375
    , contributor
    Comments (154) | Send Message
     
    iindelco - "Concerning the return of the batteries..."

     

    Thanks for your input on that. I was (and still am, somewhat) puzzled about the 'why' of the return of the batteries to Axion. I can definitely see the Axion desire to look at the batteries and comment on the results as you point out. I would agree that it was probably part of the agreement at purchase time. But still, I would have thought that Axion sold the batteries to BMW who would still own them.

     

    So while it does seem 'obvious' that whatever testing contracted to Combatec is done, and there is a good reason for the return of the batteries to Axion - as opposed to some other use by BMW, I nonetheless still wonder why does BMW want the batteries back in New Castle?

     

    (LOL at myself - I can't say my wall of worry is completely gone til I'm back to zero.)
    24 Feb 2013, 09:43 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    Axion has always been vigilant about getting testing batteries back after the testing is completed. One reason is to do detailed autopsies which provide valuable information even when the testing is highly successful. A second and more important reason is to keep devices from falling into unfriendly hands before you're ready to start selling them to customers.
    24 Feb 2013, 09:53 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Interesting to note that Hyundai is not on the list but Toyota Europe is. Hmm...still wondering who that Asian OEM is. Granted the testing was being done for BMW, but still something interesting to note.
    24 Feb 2013, 10:08 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    IINDelco,
    You definitely get the gold start this week. Heck you get the gold start for this quarter!
    24 Feb 2013, 10:09 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    "One other reason Axion might like the batteries returned is to keep the parts out of other third party hands as long as possible. Not as important perhaps as my prior point but still likely"
    IINDelco,
    I can't speak for automotive, but any outside testing I've ever had done in the scientific field always has the stipulation that all unused sample will be returned upon completion of testing. The reasons are obvious. One, you don't have to worry about someone else getting a hold of your samples, and two, the testing facility doesn't have to worry about storing your samples indefinitely or having to dispose of them. In the case of lead batteries, I'm sure the testing facililty would not want to pay to dispose of them after testing. So it would only make sense to return them. IMHO.
    24 Feb 2013, 10:19 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Jakurtz, Hey I'll take that warm fuzzy all day long.

     

    Lots of conversation going on concerning our common interest (Not the unnamed T..). Looking forward to the am when I can start out with a cup of coffee and enjoy all the perspectives from a group of people I'll lean a ton more from. As always. :)

     

    PS Here's to hoping Maya is OK. I'm sure he is but we humans have to deal with gaining and losing stars . Adding is easy.
    24 Feb 2013, 11:40 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    Yeah I'm thinking: How nice, Maya will have some good news to return to.
    25 Feb 2013, 01:21 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    iindelco,
    Nice sleuthing, it is nice to have some Axion related news, although no way of knowing if the result was positive or negative. Hope the results of the testing blew the liederhosen off the Combatec engineers - positively and figuratively and not in a GM battery testing sort of way.
    25 Feb 2013, 04:42 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    LabTech> Since all lead-acid battery cores have significant value it's unlikely that a testing facility would have to pay to dispose of the used PbCs, but keeping the samples out of the hands of others is always a strong motivation.
    25 Feb 2013, 07:39 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    I'm thinking the testing lasted as long as it was supposed to.
    Which means there was no early failure.
    So the results were not bad.
    How good? is the question. IMO.
    25 Feb 2013, 08:47 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    fro ... I'm thinking we know two things we did not know earlier -- 1) some batteries (or battery parts) were shipped to Axion and 2) the shipper, Combatec, which tests batteries for a living.

     

    We can speculate the batteries were used in testing for BMW or some other prospective PbC buyer but do not know that for certain. Axion Power IS listed as a client of Combatec and could have directly contracted 3rd party testing.

     

    We can speculate about the nature and application purpose performed, but do not know for certain what the testing entailed. Testing performed could have taken place in a testing lab, "in the field", or both.

     

    Did anyone see detail on the shipment giving battery count or gross weight of shipment?
    25 Feb 2013, 09:07 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Some thoughts to build on yours.

     

    1R- Not sure where you're going here. The battery stores energy at some rate depending on its SOC and can return energy at some rate again depending on it's SOC. The user needs to determine what their needs are and make sure that can charge and discharge it accordingly to meet their needs and to optimize the life of the PbC battery and the system it services. All at an optimized price point (read inexpensive as possible given target metrics).

     

    2R- The answer to 2 is absolutely. All changes of product or process need a plan to make sure the properties of subsequent increments of capacity will yield the same functional requirements. We saw at AONE the results of not doing this properly. The team, Axion, the OEM, any Axion partner, Axion suppliers must develop plans to male sure the risks associated with added componet supply. added electrode capacity, added/new battery capacity etc. will meet the functional requirements of the end user. This could be anything from self certification of a particular player to another full blown validation cycle inclusive of functional, durability and abuse testing. There are formal procedures that must be followed to manage these changes and project teams are set up to manage them.

     

    3R - We don't know if they might be running some level of "fleet testing" concurrent with any of the lab testing. Many reasons why they might and might not chose to do so. They might also have adapted the battery into a few vehicles at any time in the program to see how the battery or some other system features might function as they are developing the systems like SS or rolling engine off events. These vehicles might be driven by engineers or engineering managers so that they can live with their changes real time. It's done all the time and it's an inexpensive way to advance a program toward successful implementation.

     

    4R - I've said it before. I am in agreement that BMW will use the PbC not only for what it can deliver but tom make sure they leverage their suppliers toward other solutions. They are experts at playing good cop/bad cop to get what they need.

     

    5R - Just a continuation of the point made in 4. Whatever it takes to get 2 or more solutions for their future program needs. Ideally each need is filled by a number of commodity solutions from 2 or more suppliers with global reach. When you have multiple suppliers you don't have to beat them with a bat to get them to improve cost and quality. They beat each other to death trying to maintain and improve margins.

     

    6R - I think this is really a level of redundant effort with what BMW is doing. But it recreates some of what BMW has learned but not shared and moves it from being a BMW only asset to being an Axion/US government asset. This level of testing will not create as much understanding as BMW has because they have invested far more and have far more system level expertise. But it will give Axion/USG a much better base to launch from for any other entities look to adopt a PbC two battery solution.

     

    Good thoughts HTL. Hope my additions build on them. Feel free to add on or kick the ones that don't smell right. ;)
    25 Feb 2013, 09:19 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    mds5375, When Axion "sells" these prototype batteries to a customer like BMW they are selling more and less than a physical asset than performs some function. They are selling often a number of samples to be used for testing in a defined system with often some level of technical support. There are predefined restrictions that come along with the sale. These could include the return of the material after testing is complete, restrictions on information sharing, the testing could be restricted to only certain defined applications and and and.

     

    The sale of these batteries does not afford BMW carte blanche the ability to do any thing they darm well please with them. They are offered in support of certain mutual benefit, with terms of use that need to be respected. And the same obligation will be placed on Axion with regard to shared information in support of their efforts in on this application(s).

     

    Hey no worries here! Snark har har.
    25 Feb 2013, 09:38 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    Having had some limited experience with outside testing for industrial applications, its quite likely that the reason that BMW is not listed as a customer is that the billing for the tests went through Axion, just as the materials and batteries were shipped back to Axion. This would be normal, if the contract between BMW (et al) and Axion included third party testing all along...
    25 Feb 2013, 09:43 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    mds5375, One other thing I saw implemented in the auto industry and I think it makes some sense. At certain phases of development and start of serial production units were stored as reference units so that if things changed you had a point of reference to go back to in support of corrective action measures.

     

    Not so sure that's what's happening here but I can assure you that before I had a third party deliver a report to a valued partner I'd want to make sure I had input to correct mistakes, do any damage control and also be able to answer and questions the partner might ask. Just makes sense.
    25 Feb 2013, 09:48 AM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    Hey TB, BMW is on there.

     

    http://bit.ly/V16Wg1
    25 Feb 2013, 09:49 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    LabTech, Understood and agree. BTW, Your point on the lead content is a good one. Companies are regulated at a high level to make sure they manage their waste stream cradle to grave. A standard policy to ensure this might include procedures as you suggest.
    25 Feb 2013, 09:52 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    LOL, I missed the correction... Pays to read ALL the comments on here!
    25 Feb 2013, 09:54 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: My thought on 1 was that since only the non-mechanical portions of the test results remain constant when another supplier using the same chemistry and internal material components begins producing product, all the things not directly related to the chemistry and materials internal to the battery might be subjected to additional scrutiny, which you addressed in the subsequent replies. So that thought morphed into "What value of the current testing carries forward with only cursory confirmation and/or certification". My guess was the resulting chemistry and internal materials from a new supplier. I guessd that all the "mechanicals" produced, and mechanical processes, by another supplier might need closer examination and/or additional testing.

     

    So the "value" of the current testing doesn't transfer 100% to a new supplier. And that led me to wonder about even more delay even after some kind of agreement is reached between Axion and some tier-one supplier and an auto customer.

     

    HardToLove
    25 Feb 2013, 09:59 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    John,
    While it is true that the lead in the battery would still have value, if the testing facility had to dispose of them they still would have to deal with more paper work for the proper disposal of a toxic substance. Plus they would have to have some way of ensuring that the batteries "were" actually disposed of, instead of being sold to a third party who would want to steal the technology. The last thing a testing facility wants to do is to try and prove that a sample they were testing was actually disposed of by another party. It's far easier to return everything to the original party so than no one can claim anything inappropriate happened to a test samples. Plus, if a result comes back that is in question, Axion would have the ability to test that battery themselves or send them to another testing facility for confirmation.
    25 Feb 2013, 10:36 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    I was just reminding folks that LAB recycling is a profit center for owners of old cores while all all other batteries are cost centers.
    25 Feb 2013, 10:44 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Gotcha. And I agree.

     

    So the various teams will need to look at the risks associated with the possible impact imparted by any changes and determine how to mitigate any risks across the board. Parts, process, logistics etc. Seen and participated in a ton of em. Some very pragmatic and some not so much. And they all need to respect the end date if one exists. By this I mean the program time line to series production. Fords marketing term "Job 1".
    25 Feb 2013, 10:50 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    D-inv
    You would have to come up with a good reason for Axion to be sending out their batteries for third party validation after all of the work by BMW and NFC.
    Not to mention to someone who just happens to also have BMW as a customer. With the results coming in at a time when we are expecting results from BMW's third party testing.
    25 Feb 2013, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Understood and agree. My other point is that a testing facility wants to be paid for doing tests, not making money selling the item they are testing. I compare it to a gemologist. He wants to be paid to grade diamonds. However, he doesn't want to be paid in diamonds because then he has to become a jeweler as well and that's not his focus.
    25 Feb 2013, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    The bottom line is that producers of truly unique products like the PbC want to control as much of the testing process as possible to protect IP and to do a detailed post-mortem examination on how a particular testing protocol impacted the components. It's good to know that your product has passed or failed a particular series of tests. It's more important to know why it passed or failed. The answer to the first question comes from the testing facility. The answer to the second comes when you get the battery back and study the components.
    25 Feb 2013, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    John, Reminds me of a comment a colleague made during a new program development meeting after a large test run. Another colleague asked where the single part that failed during the build went when the data was being reviewed. The engineer remarked he threw it away. Ugh!!! I remember the response well, "The most important part you built all day and you threw it away!?". Then came the lesson I didn't want to hear because I'd already learned it years earlier. Followed by the obvious last remark before the meeting was rescheduled, "Go out in the lab recycling bin and see if you can find that part.".

     

    Can't ignore your weaknesses if you want to resolve them. ;)
    25 Feb 2013, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    :-) A good reason for Axion contracting 3rd party testing is absence of commercial success without anything other than Axion-produced results to present to prospective buyers.
    25 Feb 2013, 12:47 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    D
    Not bad.
    Good recovery. I'll give you partial credit.
    25 Feb 2013, 04:22 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (737) | Send Message
     
    With the current trend in vehicle fuel prices, delay just makes the delivery more welcomed. Even if the end user can save (from higher) fuel costs a smaller per mile percentage than expected, they will still be happy to do it.
    25 Feb 2013, 07:31 PM Reply Like
  • EBuiel
    , contributor
    Comments (76) | Send Message
     
    I've visited this lab in the past. Daimler uses them for almost all of their battery qualification and testing. Other automobile companies like VW, Audi, BMW, use them for some of their testing. If you can get the weight of the shipment we might be able to figure out if they are PbC or advanced lead acid.
    26 Feb 2013, 09:03 AM Reply Like
  • EBuiel
    , contributor
    Comments (76) | Send Message
     
    Extract from our customer reference list:

     

    Acumuladores Moura S/A
    Akkumulatorenfabrik MOLL GmbH & Co. KG
    Axion Power International Inc.
    Banner GmbH
    Bentley Motors Limited
    ---->BMW AG<----------------... It is here
    Christian Winkler GmbH & Co. KG
    Daimler AG PKW und Nutzfahrzeuge
    DENSO AUTOMOTIVE Deutschland GmbH
    Dr. Ing. h. c. F. Porsche AG
    Exide Technologies
    FIAMM S.p.A. Starter Batteries
    First National Battery
    Freiberger Compound Materials GmbH
    INTEC SRL
    Johnson Controls, Inc.
    Midtronics b.v.
    Porsche Engineering Services GmbH
    Robert Bosch GmbH
    Rombat S.A.
    Samauto S.r.l.
    Toyota Europe
    Volkswagen AG
    Centre for Solar Energy and Hydrogen Research- Baden-Württemberg (ZSW), Ulm
    26 Feb 2013, 09:05 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Dr. Buiel, I've been looking at other import sites and have not as of yet been able to get a count vs weight or any added information on this shipment. Maybe I'll have to look into the cost of limited access for more detail.

     

    I am a little surprised at your comment in the area of advanced lead acid vs PbC as possibilities in this shipment. I would never expect that Axion might be part of efforts in the advanced lead acid battery area like carbon additives. Or perhaps might this be a comparative study of advanced lead acid vs PbC?
    26 Feb 2013, 09:51 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Dr. Buiel according to one import site I found the mass of the shipment was 560 kg. Didn't show a battery count.
    16 Mar 2013, 01:50 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    iind ... according to Rosewater's data sheet on PowerCube specs, 30HT PbC batteries (~980 in^3) weigh 73 lbs. Assuming the batteries returned to Axion were 30HTs, 560kg shipment weight implies 169 batteries.
    16 Mar 2013, 02:16 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    D-inv: If those were being returned from BMW, or such, wouldn't they more likely be the standard automotive size? I forget what it's called.

     

    HardToLove
    16 Mar 2013, 02:35 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    I suspect you are very much on target, HTL. That suspicion prompted me to include the volume (in^3) of 30HT batteries on the premise that weight/mass of standard auto size would be roughly proportional with volume. That is, if battery sizes normally found in autos were 20% smaller in volume than 30HT then they would likely weigh roughly 20% less and the battery count of 169 would translate to something on the order of 200.
    16 Mar 2013, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Thanks D-inv, I think you math is off. I get 17 batteries approx. I do suspect HTL is correct and these might in fact be Group 31 batteries which have less mass.
    16 Mar 2013, 03:00 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: good math, bad decimal placement? He must be using my keyboard! :-))

     

    HardToLove
    16 Mar 2013, 03:04 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    :-) 560 kg = 1,234.59 lbs according to the kg-to-lb conversion calculator at http://bit.ly/Z61iW7

     

    1234.59lb/73lb = 16.9 :-) Wuz only off by 10x.
    16 Mar 2013, 03:07 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Ahhh, yes. We have statistical confirmation that keyboards get dirty! Still not perfect confirmation though like the large data set that validates AGM is junk for SS. :))
    16 Mar 2013, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2177) | Send Message
     
    D, you should probably knock off 10% of the weight for the container and packing materials. Let's guesstimate 150 batteries or less.
    16 Mar 2013, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (844) | Send Message
     
    Thinking like Rich- It looks like its probably about 15 batteries.
    17 Mar 2013, 02:35 PM Reply Like
  • EBuiel
    , contributor
    Comments (76) | Send Message
     
    If the shipment was 560 kg and the weight of the batteries is 73 lbs (33.1 kg), then you are looking at 17 batteries right? Not 169.

     

    You would not use a 30HT in an automobile. This would need to be an L5/H8 Euro DIN size. It would have about 60-70% the weight roughly, as a 30HT. Assume a pallet for shipping, you get 20 batteries. This would be a small test batch that probably went to Frankfurt or Mainz for testing.
    20 May 2013, 10:17 AM Reply Like
  • EBuiel
    , contributor
    Comments (76) | Send Message
     
    If you look at the VDA testing requirements, you will notice they would need 14 batteries....

     

    http://bit.ly/12GIOAD

     

    Also note, that a PbC and small flooded battery would fit pretty nicely in vehicles like the X1 shown.
    20 May 2013, 10:31 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Dr. Buiel, Thanks much for the information on testing. It's great to have someone who works in the industry and understands the test protocols etc.

     

    Another question if you don't mind. We have had some discussions here of late concerning packing in the vehicle once you remove things like the power take off belts from the engine and the ICE gets progressively smaller with higher compression ratios and the fact that you are electrifying many aux. functions.

     

    You picture of the BMW X1 shows the battery placement in the trunk. A few reasons why they might do this but I think the primary reason is to keep the AMG battery away from the waste heat in the engine compartment.

     

    This placement, I would expect, adds a level of cost due to the long runs of heavy gauge conductors between the engine compartment and the vehicles truck. My question is concerning how much more tolerant the PbC battery is compared to an AGM battery which BMW is using today? How well would it perform if placed in reasonable air flow back in the engine compartment? Also, with the announced approx. 25% reduction in internal resistance in the PbC might this also help materially?

     

    Obviously not having long copper runs should have a good impact on mass reduction and material savings.

     

    OK, a few questions! Sorry.
    20 May 2013, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • EBuiel
    , contributor
    Comments (76) | Send Message
     
    AGM batteries do hate heat and that is the primary reason they are in the truck. If you look at the companies that use AGM batteries, they build higher quality cars and they also care about weight distribution which is a second reason it is in the truck. There is a recall on BMW vehicles right now as their is a problem with the wiring harness somewhere forward of the firewall. This costs $1,500 to replace to give you an idea of the cost of this component. I've also heard the OEM price for this harness is $800 but this sounds high to me.

     

    Heat primarily promotes grid corrosion of the positive grid. Since Axion PbC uses positive lead electrodes, I'm not sure what would be gained with a PbC battery here. However, some companies think they can duct air to the battery or place the battery behind the firewall just in front of the windshield (see Audi/VW A4 chasis vehicles). This would probably be fine.

     

    Todays start/stop vehicles use a large L5/H6 DIN sized AGM battery. It is very hard to support both the starts and energy usage with one battery. The main reason is that you have to start the car after pulling the energy out and this is dangerous. It would be much better to use a standard normal sized flooded battery (cheap) and PbC. So you would have two batteries, but they would work much better...
    20 May 2013, 05:10 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Thanks! Yeah the 800 USD price for this harness seems high but it is possible it involves a significant number of wires for the passenger compartment and the rear vehicle signaling. Still seems high though. Maybe that's an after market price where things carry a pretty significant margin compared to OE to the manufacturers.

     

    Interesting comments on VW. I know that Valeo and Bosch are offering dual synchronized wiper motors for the front wiper system. This eliminates the mechanical linkage for the wiper arms and could free up space in the plenum area. This is a pretty busy area though as you have to manage the water coming off the windshield and it also is where the air intake is located for the HVAC system. May other things as well. Interesting concept though and holds promise. But I don't want to be crawling up in there to change it too often.

     

    I like the ones under the seat but I'll pass on lithium ion located there.
    20 May 2013, 06:11 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    My 1998 Audi A6 had the battery behind the firewall. There was a hatch at the back of the engine compartment between the hood hinges and directly in front of the radio.
    20 May 2013, 06:18 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Ahh, Thanks John. So they have history with this packaging. Hopefully they can still package it there with the added 10 pounds of ^&*% they are now putting in the 5 pound bag.
    20 May 2013, 06:32 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3311) | Send Message
     
    If you think about it though, eliminating a lot of the PTO belts via expanded electrification is going to free up some valuable space I should think...
    20 May 2013, 06:37 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    Rumor creation time. An eight month fleet test of PbC batteries has been completed. BMW went to school on WWII Allies Operation Overlord and used "independent 3rd party" (Combatec) testing story line as stand-in for the fictional army Patton was allegedly preparing for invasion of Europe at Pas de Calais. The real action was Normandy (fleet testing) and battery shipments to/from Combatec is/has been the man behind the screen erected by BMW to misdirect auto OEM competitors and maintain market place surprise.
    24 Feb 2013, 01:28 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2108) | Send Message
     
    D-inv: Now that's just silly! ;-)
    24 Feb 2013, 04:12 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    :-)
    24 Feb 2013, 05:19 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    SHB: but quite entertaining, nevertheless.

     

    I just need to hear now that a *real* s/s system that works all the time it was designed for - and past warranty for sure - is available on the 2015 MY Beemers.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Feb 2013, 05:53 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    Yeah...

     

    But where does the coyote urine carbon additive fit in?
    24 Feb 2013, 07:42 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    Coyote urine is an electrolyte additive, not a carbon additive.

     

    http://bit.ly/X5fJO7
    24 Feb 2013, 07:48 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    OT
    An electric ........ Umm .... Wheel you can ride.

     

    http://bit.ly/YrSYUi
    24 Feb 2013, 07:05 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3311) | Send Message
     
    http://nyti.ms/YvP8VY;

     

    OT, but one for BW...
    25 Feb 2013, 06:18 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4639) | Send Message
     
    Worlds most efficient car:
    http://bit.ly/X69PvZ
    25 Feb 2013, 08:45 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    LT "most efficient ..."

     

    Debatable. The carbon foot print and energy consumption for the progress per unit of time of all the non-robotic units to "harvest" the natural resources, manufacture the components, transport them, assemble them, repair them (breakdown of the motive components is frequent) is *huge*.

     

    Huge amounts of water, nutrients, waste disposal, shelter, ... are required by the non-robotic units in all these processes, as well as for daily operation of the motive units.

     

    Further, you'll note the lack of adequate safety features, notably crush zones. The mandated ORockaCare health insurance places a huge tax on the non-robotic units, causing reduced economic activity, resulting in reduced discretionary income and curtailing the sales of the "most efficient car". This throws a large number of non-robotic units into a state of idleness, requiring transfer of wealth, via the centralized government, to these units for ever-extending time-frames to keep them operational.

     

    And in all of this, *everything* occurs at a lower rate of productivity per time-unit and non-robotic unit.

     

    Commute times are also attrocious, causing consolidation of the non-robotics into cramped cities, increasing crime, straining civic resources, ...

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    25 Feb 2013, 09:25 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    They also offer carbon additives for the NAM in LAB's.

     

    Cabot plans to tap into billion dollar battery market with new products

     

    "Cabot has rolled out two new additives for its lithium-ion battery applications. The Boston-based company on Monday launched its LITX G700, its first graphene-based additive for high energy density battery apps for use in electric vehicles and consumer electronics."

     

    http://bit.ly/15K7VEs
    25 Feb 2013, 11:57 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Waiting......

     

    about 6:25 > ;))

     

    http://bit.ly/YvvAVR
    25 Feb 2013, 01:25 PM Reply Like
  • Bylo-
    , contributor
    Comments (389) | Send Message
     
    Now I know what Leonard Nimoy is doing these days.
    26 Feb 2013, 03:37 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Now that we've dumped on the commons there's money to be made in selling shovels to clean them up.

     

    Silicon Valley Shifting to Power Grid After Solar Sours

     

    "Grid Technology

     

    Chrysalix invested in the energy-management providers Enbala Power Networks and AlertMe Ltd. Khosla funded LightSail Energy Inc., which is developing energy storage devices.

     

    “Our specialty is with large technology risk, where if the technology works there’s a big economic breakthrough,” Vinod Khosla, the billionaire founder of Khosla Ventures in Menlo Park, California, said in an interview. “That’s what we keep looking for in all areas.”

     

    Alan Salzman, chief executive officer of VantagePoint Capital Partners, said systems that allow energy to be used more efficiently and help the grid cope with variable supplies from wind and solar plants represent the richest new areas.

     

    Energy storage is “an essential component” for renewable energy to thrive, Salzman said. “That’s an area that has been hugely underserved historically that we think remains hugely interesting,” he said."

     

    http://bloom.bg/YsITVc
    25 Feb 2013, 01:42 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    Springer still seems to be down and out. Hope he is doing alright. No Mongolia updates since Feb 13th. Keep us posted if anyone hears anything.
    25 Feb 2013, 02:01 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    I PMed w/him this A.M. Still recovering. First issue might have caused some secondary issues so recovery is longer.

     

    HardToLove
    25 Feb 2013, 02:07 PM Reply Like
  • jakurtz
    , contributor
    Comments (1910) | Send Message
     
    Thanks, good to hear.
    25 Feb 2013, 02:12 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Wish him well for us HTL. :)
    25 Feb 2013, 02:41 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2386) | Send Message
     
    Norfolk Southern to cut 140 jobs at one of its Roanoke operations

     

    http://bit.ly/Xaj1ho

     

    "Norfolk Southern announced today that it will cease regional railcar classification operations at its Roanoke Terminal hump yard in Roanoke, Va., beginning today. This will mean the elimination of about 140 positions. The Terminal will continue to provide service to local customers, and to be a hub for through-train operations.

     

    The Roanoke hump operation has seen a steady decline in the volume of general merchandise cars handled by about 30 percent since 2006. At the same time, system-wide improvements in the railroad’s operations have freed up network capacity such that classification operations now performed at Roanoke are no longer necessary."

     

    ======================...
    Not sure if this is a trend, and what exactly it says, if anything, about the switcher market.
    25 Feb 2013, 02:46 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >wtblanchard ... It seems to me to point to the intermodal yards are working just fine and the Southeast USA, Tidewater region, is in economic decline.
    25 Feb 2013, 03:39 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2386) | Send Message
     
    Roanoke is in the mountains, not Tidewater, but I take your point. I presume they've spaced out the recently constructed intermodal yards "appropriately" and with some data-driven analysis.
    25 Feb 2013, 03:58 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    Coal.
    25 Feb 2013, 04:02 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >wtblanchard ... With the opening of the Greencastle, PA intermodal terminal and the one in Charlotte, NC there is really no need for Roanoke which serves S.E. Virginia, coastal NC & SC. I see it as just what was in the cards by the build out of the Crescent Corridor. Take a look at the map and notice the upgraded rail can leapfrog Roanoke with not much economic market impact.

     

    http://bit.ly/XwcsmC

     

    system map

     

    http://bit.ly/YwEIp6

     

    >tripleblack ... Coal is a factor but not so much for Roanoke classification because it is a commodity shipped via unit trains, one product & unbroken trains. Coal is a factor to the regional employment base & the coal terminals in VA & NC ports
    25 Feb 2013, 04:21 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    Suzuki Starts Production of Hydrogen Cell Car Battery

     

    http://bit.ly/WmWfAA
    25 Feb 2013, 02:51 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    Big title but little substance to the Suzuki news story. Like how much to produce and how much to sell?
    25 Feb 2013, 04:32 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2386) | Send Message
     
    OT: Raising Gas Taxes Beats Boosting CAFE Standards
    February 22, 2013 by Donald Marron

     

    http://bit.ly/YSPxUz

     

    This isn't the spot for a political/economic discussion ... just thought some of you might find it interesting and can take it to the "right spot" if you're so inclined,
    25 Feb 2013, 04:29 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    While I suffer from a visceral response to all forms of taxes, I lived with sky high fuel taxes for almost 15 years and quickly learned that paying $8 a gallon for gas made me more aware of my behavior, and I've always heard that taking personal responsibility for a problem is the surest way of solving it.
    25 Feb 2013, 04:47 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    WT
    Thanks for the article.
    As a supporter of Jon Anderson for President in 1980 (an independent) (http://bit.ly/15KTWy9)
    I have to agree with JP's statement as to personal responsibility. Mr. Anderson advocated a $.50 gas tax increase. an incredible sum back then. All funds would be used to make the Social Security fund whole.(That would have worked) It also would have reduced our dependence on foreign oil. Solving many issues that arose in the future.

     

    His rise to fame was when he said this:
    " lowering taxes, increasing defense spending, and balancing the budget was an impossible combination."

     

    For those who believe these are new ideas simply look to history for answers. Mr. Anderson did recieve more than 10% of the vote and recieved Federal Election funds to help his campaign.

     

    And as a side note, he was as genuine a man as a candidate.
    25 Feb 2013, 05:09 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (844) | Send Message
     
    Don't know if anyone watched the Academy Awards last night but there was a short film on people who make up the recycling of cans and bottles in NYC. In NYC like several but the minority of states you can take cans into a center and collect $.05/can. Machines are set up to scan them but many places do not want the homeless hanging around so they limit the #s. In places like Germany the fee is closer to $.25/bottle so the purchaser usually returns it. In the US the pop companies actively fight this and the can people don't want to see it increased to $.10/can as they feel people will then recycle.

     

    The amazing stat about this is states where there is no fee - can recycling is about 30% on average. Add the $.05 and it goes to something like 70%.

     

    I pushed my state and federal legislature to push for $.10 per on cans and plastic bottles for several years. A simple letter.
    25 Feb 2013, 06:14 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    In the price signals matter department; the Swiss are great at getting folks to recycle with a very simple program. Everything that gets separated into the proper recycling containers is disposed of for free. Everything that goes into the trash can costs about two-bits a pound.

     

    It was an objectively small incentive, but I couldn't bring myself to throw away an empty wine bottle or newspaper knowing it would cost 25¢ when I could put it in the recycling bin for free.

     

    I was eternally grateful when we found the right recycling bin for used cat litter.
    25 Feb 2013, 06:25 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    Color me skeptical about the report's findings if they are predicated in whole or part on "new standards also encourage more driving, not less." Color me skeptical if the report's conclusions include "new standards also encourage more driving, not less."

     

    Count me as on board with any finding that announcement of significantly more stringent CAFE standards two - three years in future will depress near term new auto sales.
    25 Feb 2013, 06:53 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9606) | Send Message
     
    Last year, Honduras approved a national bottle and can recycling policy. On my way to Copan, HN, my driver, Twisted Tanya, said, "Help feed the poor. Toss those beer cans out the window!"
    25 Feb 2013, 07:10 PM Reply Like
  • Bill Burtchaell
    , contributor
    Comments (406) | Send Message
     
    John could you make a living from empty wine bottles? no offense just asking, my wife and I could do a nice vacation @ .25 each! Joking of course.
    26 Feb 2013, 05:38 PM Reply Like
  • Mayascribe
    , contributor
    Comments (9606) | Send Message
     
    Catching up!

     

    An amazing woman passed; Bryn Mawr College Summa Cum Laude graduate, a farmer, a several times award winning gardener, grew corn, soy beans, race horses, and a couple of buffalo. Employed gang members in west Philly to refurbish 150 homes, married three times, and used her own breeding stock to produce 12 children; "an endless family."

     

    It was always a wonderful honor to be able to hang around the farm, for some 37 years of my life.

     

    Thanks all for your well-wishes.

     

    Back to work...

     

    ####

     

    iindelco: Great find on the batteries coming back from the third party tester. Of note, IIRC, in 2009 or 2010, BMW returned batteries back to New Castle. So, and for all the great reasons listed, it's not unprecedented for Axion to have their batteries returned after testing completion.

     

    I would expect the Comatec testing results parallel what Axion, PSU, and BMW have learned, that the PbC cycles 100,000 times, flawlessly.

     

    Certainly, TG can use this exciting "chip" to attract cap raise investors, as it now appears Axion's next move will be to ship out some batteries to BMW for fleet testing.

     

    Want to add that back in 2009 the electrode line did not exist. Back then, BMW was testing "hand built" batteries. Now PbC parts are produced with robots. Would not surprise me at all if BMW insisted for third party testing to be done mindful of Axion's new automation and quality control.

     

    Lastly, last year, we learned that there was in excess of $600,000 worth of PbCs that had no home. Now, possibly, we know where they went.
    25 Feb 2013, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    02/25/2014: EOD stuff partially copied from instablog (up in the A.m?).
    # Trds: 20, MinTrSz: 100, MaxTrSz: 10000, Vol 73600, AvTrSz: 3680
    Min. Pr: 0.2890, Max Pr: 0.3089, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2973
    # Buys, Shares: 1 4000, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.3089
    # Sells, Shares: 18 69500, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2967
    # Unkn, Shares: 1 100, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.2990
    Buy:Sell 1:17.38 (5.40% “buys”), DlyShts 2000 (2.72%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 2.88%

     

    Well, one 400 share trade at $0.289 at 9:30:07 and one 4K trade at $0.3089 at 9:30:08 set the range for the day.

     

    All other trades went at $0.2900-$0.3000. We saw the “late day weakness” start during the lunch hour as the first trade below $0.30 since 9:30:07 occurred at 12:22:45 with a 6.4K trade @ $0.2951. Over that four hours and eight minutes a flood of orders – 7 whole trades – additionally traded one at $0.295, four at $0.291 and one at $0.29. Total of shares in these trades was 30K, ~40.8% of the day's volume, at a VWAP of $0.2924. There's not enough volume or variability to break it down further.

     

    In spite of that, we managed to generate a higher VWAP – here's the last five days, including today: $0.3003, $0.2973, $0.2967, $0.2932 and $0.2973. May be an early indicator that folks are deciding the risk is justified here? OTOH, every trade was a “sell” except one 4K at $0.3089. Even all the $0.30 trades were “sells”.

     

    Essentially, $0.29 is still holding as support and we're waiting to see whether the sellers or buyers get exhausted first. 39K, 53.1% of day's volume, traded at $0.30.

     

    Our low was 1/10th cent higher and our high was 19/100ths lower than Friday's. I call it essentially flat until we get some successive days of such behavior and can see a trend. Speaking of which ...

     

    We do have a short-term descending (about $0.002/day) potential resistance that's currently at $0.3220.

     

    On the traditional TA, nothing much to say other than the experimental 13-period lower Bollinger departed from our price range today. If price wants to go back to mid-range, that's now at $0.311, with the upper limit flat and the lower falling. If price holds steady, the 50-day SMA of $0.3152, above the 200-day SMA of $0.3147, will start to creep up again while the 200-day continues to fall. Most of the oscillators I watch are still weakening slowly except the stochastic, which is trying to rise, having moved just out of oversold and barely above its average.

     

    On my experimental stuff, average trade size was below what I consider normal retail, buy:sell below “normal” and volume is “what volume!”. My inflection point calculations are in visual disarray, suggesting nothing but more of the same for now. But when I look at the numbers for the five-day aggregate percentage changes, five of the six are improving, suggesting that a turn may be in the works. We'll have to wait and see,

     

    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.

     

    HardToLove
    25 Feb 2013, 06:36 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1229) | Send Message
     
    Axion PbC article was posted today at Fleets & Fuels!
    http://bit.ly/126ZKmy

     

    The article contains no new information but hey its publicity and it highlights the NS sale--even in the title.

     

    Fleets & Fuels calls itself "the ultimate industry resource for those looking to stay on top of breaking news and current events within the transportation and alternative fuels industries"
    25 Feb 2013, 08:40 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    I have never seen the source materials for "Citing figures from the Argonne National Laboratory, Axion says that conversion of just one yard locomotive to all-battery power could save 85,000 gallons of diesel fuel per year. Conversion of a single over-the-road locomotive could save twice that."

     

    Having a definitive source to demonstrate fuel savings of $250,000 per year for a yard locomotive and $500,000 a year for an OTR unit is a big deal. Now I have my work cut out for me trying to run down the data source.
    25 Feb 2013, 08:50 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1229) | Send Message
     
    In that case JP, I take it back, there was something new!
    25 Feb 2013, 08:59 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3311) | Send Message
     
    Would this story have been worked up with/without Norfolk Southern's impetus / cooperation / approval? IOW, do we think it was an Axion driven thing, a NSC driven thing, or just the product of some third party's motivation? Whichever the case, the timing seems...intriguing. To date NSC hasn't exactly been falling all over itself to publicize the Axion connection...
    25 Feb 2013, 09:00 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3901) | Send Message
     
    And, how far behind might a capital raise follow?
    25 Feb 2013, 09:10 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1229) | Send Message
     
    48-The article does cite Axion as the source.
    I'd guess F&F just decided to add a little bit to the Jan 11 PR and put it out for their readers.
    25 Feb 2013, 09:20 PM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (369) | Send Message
     
    Beautiful!
    25 Feb 2013, 11:23 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    48: "To date NSC hasn't exactly been falling all over itself to publicize the Axion connection..."

     

    As JP has mentioned, this time around they're probably waiting to get some real miles on the unit before letting the cat out of the bag in a big way.

     

    WTB's "secret source" is our best chance of hearing about any early activity I think.

     

    We need to take up a collection so Wtb can send him a libation of his choice.

     

    HardToLove
    26 Feb 2013, 06:42 AM Reply Like
  • metroneanderthal
    , contributor
    Comments (1500) | Send Message
     
    According to the second line of the article Axion's railroad customer is "Norfolk Suffolk".
    26 Feb 2013, 11:54 AM Reply Like
  • billa_from_sf
    , contributor
    Comments (369) | Send Message
     
    Could the terms of the development contracts that led to the roll-out of the pre-PbC NS999 stipulate that the technology employed can not be changed for a certain period of time?

     

    I know it is a crazy thought, but maybe the entities that put up the money to build the first one didn't want them tearing it apart and making it into something else before they got their money's worth out of it. And that money's worth was calculated in weeks and months.
    26 Feb 2013, 03:20 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    For those interested in a piece of Tesla news. I expect this will elicit some comments.
    So I put it on the bottom of John's latest article

     

    It seems the VIN number holes had a purpose of deception.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    25 Feb 2013, 11:08 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    Froggey77,
    I just find it amusing that John's article got 754 comments to date. Tesla does have its true believers.
    26 Feb 2013, 10:19 AM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7634) | Send Message
     
    Also known as "customers".
    27 Feb 2013, 08:29 AM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (737) | Send Message
     
    You would think school buses would be prime targets for electrification since they have fixed routes with a lot of stop and start. Hotel load is a minor concern as well.
    26 Feb 2013, 08:46 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    All school buses are not the same. In NY if it's a handicap route assigned school bus it has to have air conditioning by law. Thus more hotel load.
    26 Feb 2013, 08:54 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4639) | Send Message
     
    MILWAUKEE, WI -- (Marketwire) -- 02/26/13 -- ZBB Energy Corporation (NYSE MKT: ZBB), a leading developer of intelligent, renewable energy power platforms and hybrid vehicle control systems, today announced it has received a contract valued at greater than $500,000 from Meineng Energy, ZBB's joint venture company in China.
    "This contract, primarily for ZBB EnerStore components, further indicates the growth potential in China for our power availability solutions," said Dan Nordloh, ZBB Energy Executive Vice President of Global Business Development and member of Meineng Energy Board of Directors. "With this contract, Meineng will be able to continue ramping activity to ensure their ability to quickly deliver configurable solutions while accommodating diverse applications."
    Meineng Factory I, officially opened last summer and is designed to have an annualized nameplate capacity rated at 100MWh of energy storage and control products.
    About ZBB Energy Corporation
    26 Feb 2013, 10:18 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2386) | Send Message
     
    From the "Beats a sharp stick in the eye department"
    26 Feb 2013, 10:30 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2108) | Send Message
     
    If the ZBB Chinese joint venture "partner" is true to form, they will reverse engineer the product and then have an "independent" company produce a clone for sales in China. Then the ZBB shipments to China will decline to near zero over a year or so.

     

    I hold out little hope for ZBB if its cash flow depends on the Asian, especially Chinese, market.
    26 Feb 2013, 01:20 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    SiHB, Happened every single time I've watched it with other companies. I can't for the life of me understand why any company would move technology to China without it being paid for up front with the notion that future sales would be sold with the technology.
    26 Feb 2013, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2108) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: My thoughts on why a company makes the "China move".

     

    The stock market today seems dominated by BigBoy manipulation of both the overall market and the small investor to extract the trillions of dollars waiting in IRA accounts. It's a zero sum game; extract some percentage of that retirement money each year to line the pockets of the manipulators. Actual investment in real companies in hopes of finding one that makes it big on a product is completely secondary to "farming" the swings in the market and individual stocks. Why take a risk to make "things" when you can just "make money". Fake tech companies, fake mortgage bonds. Bubble investing.

     

    So my answer is; the Chinese are willing to invest money in companies that have already taken a product to the late demonstration phase, knowing that the money risked by US investors in developing said product will become theirs by stealing the IP.

     

    A US company that is dying of starvation in our low risk investment culture has no option as it sees the end of its life approaching. Of course, the China trick only delays the company death in the USA for as long as it takes to transfer the IP and get the product in production. The Chinese might botch the job, but the original company is seriously wounded or killed in the melee.

     

    It is almost as nasty as watching the BBs churn money out of millions of retirement accounts, with the apparent blessing of the Fedgov. After all, it is YOUR retirement account these days, right?

     

    Rant mode OFF. For now ;-)
    26 Feb 2013, 08:01 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    SHB,
    The Chinese joint venture ZBB is part of, gives ZBB a 1/3 interest in the China operation. The entire point was for the US side to sell products to the China JV until the China JV can make its own. Tapping the China market and receiving 1/3rd is still larger than any other market while receiving 100%. Now it is true that China thieves can be looting the ZBB vault of proprietary information as we speak.
    But to do that they will be stealing from some very large and well connected China entities.
    I understand the skepticism, but when put in a sense of global business JVs make sense. If the largest utility in China (State grid) wanted Axion to form an alliance with the largest battery manufacturer, and then produce the PbC for Chinas 20 Million autos this year, I would bet the Axion BOD's would look long and hard at the situation.
    26 Feb 2013, 09:48 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    "Do not trust the horse, Trojans. Whatever it is, I fear the Greeks even when they bring gifts."
    26 Feb 2013, 10:46 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3311) | Send Message
     
    One Beelion dollars, in gold. That would make me somewhat more comfortable with sharing the IP.
    26 Feb 2013, 10:54 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2127) | Send Message
     
    China: The Ultimate Decision.

     

    Theory #1- If a company does business with the Chinese they will steal your trade secrets while conducting business.

     

    Theory #2- If you don't deal with the Chinese they will simply steal your trade secrets.

     

    One would think that the leaders of the Worlds largest economy could do a better job of intellectual property enforcement. Perhaps when we are an energy exporter we will hold more power over that economy.
    27 Feb 2013, 07:27 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    Thought for the day.

     

    On the Shores of Hesitation
    Bleach the bones of countless millions;
    Who at the point of VICTORY,
    Stopped to rest
    And while resting....Died.
    26 Feb 2013, 10:48 AM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (844) | Send Message
     
    I simply need a delay of approximately 20 days. I get my year-end bonus on March 15th. A few days to wire it to my brokerage and bam I own more shares. Has to be this way as I promised the wife that I'd buy no more in our brokerage acct.

     

    Some people have small cash funds used to go and spend money that they don't want their spouse to know about. I have a brokerage account.

     

    Since its real quiet, too quiet. I'm going to ask a somewhat technical question about the markets that I don't understand. In the past we've guessed on here that we see the price drop so that a large order can get filled and we estimate that 99% of this stock is in retail hands. How does the average retail Joe get the MM attention that he wants a fill without rocking the boat.

     

    If I had $100k to put into AXPW how would I do it. If I put in an order for 300k the MM will notice but so will everyone else. However with the market seemingly so thin it seems that any attempt by one to buy even it in 25k chunks would sent it materially higher.
    26 Feb 2013, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    >mrholty ... That is really the responsibility of your brokerage house trader. You should be able to get that person on the phone and tell them what you want to do (I can with Fidelity), but with no personal interaction, all you can do is put in and a limit order and pray you don't have a sloppy trader that has no interest in getting clients the best price. Now whether that should be at-the-money, above/below or how much makes sense ... no clue here. Small orders in any shape or fashion would eat you up in commission
    26 Feb 2013, 12:23 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    MrHolty: +1 On Drich's comments. Another thing you can do is buy large enough chunks so that per/share commission is reasonable (on my ETrade, $9.99 unless I'm *real active - then $7.99 per trade). So maybe 10K sizes, not at all unusual, put in over hours, days, ... shouldn't move price much. But don't forget John's admonition that "bottom feeding" may be passe now.

     

    My preference would be DRich's suggestion if you want a big chunk - have your broker contact inform their OTC traders to keep it under the radar, maybe specify an maximum average price you're willing to go at and let their trader's expertise benefit you. Make it a GTC order, rather than a day order, so the trader has time to accumulate at his lower price and then sell to you higher! ;-))

     

    Then you should get hit with only one fee.

     

    Seriously ...

     

    HardToLove
    EDIT: Oh! Might want to tell "all or none" or minimum quantity too!
    26 Feb 2013, 01:13 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (844) | Send Message
     
    Thanks guys. I odn't have that sort of money. Just wondering how it actually works.
    My order in a few weeks will be in the 20k share range based on recent price.
    26 Feb 2013, 01:19 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2334) | Send Message
     
    Most I know have put in limit orders and sat on them until filled. Bottom fishing has worked so far so why stray from that. If the Axion story pans out in 2013/13 these prices will be obscenely cheap. If however financing goes south then significant dilution of ownership might yet still bit us again.
    26 Feb 2013, 01:23 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1412) | Send Message
     
    The last time the price hit this level I bought around 40k shares and had no problem doing so just by putting a bid. I might have bought in 15k chunks. Of course that was with the big uglies around. It's harder now, but if I was certain there is good news around the corner I'd hit the ask and not look back. I've missed plenty of good trades by trying to save a penny and not be willing to pay more as it's going up.
    26 Feb 2013, 02:42 PM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (869) | Send Message
     
    Sounds like grounds for divorce to me.
    27 Feb 2013, 09:13 AM Reply Like
  • Bylo-
    , contributor
    Comments (389) | Send Message
     
    Ready... Set.... (refreshing furiously)
    26 Feb 2013, 11:38 AM Reply Like
  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (368) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/128qSBL

     

    "UK Low Carbon Champions present LC Super Hybrid technology at future car conference in Stuttgart"

     

    "The LC Super Hybrid programme was conceived by CPT and ALABC to show that significant CO2 reduction can be achieved through electric hybridisation at low voltages (12-48 volts) complemented by the major breakthrough of high power density lead-carbon batteries."

     

    What major breakthrough of high power density lead-carbon batteries?
    26 Feb 2013, 11:55 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2108) | Send Message
     
    KentG: they are referring to the Marketing Engineering breakthrough, wherein the newly developed term "high power density lead-carbon batteries" is used.

     

    The term is specifically aimed at the market niche that has heard of PbC lead-carbon batteries and will therefore be confused/distracted by the newly engineered phrase.

     

    The above comment is only partially in jest.
    26 Feb 2013, 01:28 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2386) | Send Message
     
    First Drive: BMW i8

     

    http://bit.ly/V5Gxxx

     

    "As we rush along snow-covered roads, I notice a button on the centre tunnel marked ‘E mode’. Van As obliges, depressing it to alter the drive process from petrol-electric to solely electric, in which energy is provided by a lithium-ion battery pack mounted within the centre tunnel. It is a neat trick – one that will allow drivers of the BMW i8 to undertake journeys of up to 20 miles on battery power alone, allowing them to dodge London’s congestion charge and other similar zero-emission zone charges. It also provides the swoopy coupé with near-to-silent cruising qualities."
    26 Feb 2013, 12:35 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2108) | Send Message
     
    I believe it was JP who said the only useful feature of a plug-in hybrid was that it allowed access to the less crowded "progressive citizen" lane. Hey, if you got the money.........
    26 Feb 2013, 01:32 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (844) | Send Message
     
    London's congestion pricing zone isn't cheap. Why a car that runs on electricity vs petrol should get out of that free makes no sense. The fee is for congestion and the last I knew these EV cars still took up physical space, especially when bricked.
    26 Feb 2013, 01:41 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    While I'm no fan of EVs, I'm a huge fan of HOV lanes and were I a lawyer working in an office building downtown it might very well make sense to by an EV if the only thing I ever got out of it was HOV lane access. I'm not kidding when I say it's a compelling advantage for some who bill their time at $500 to $1,000 an hour, but they're not usually part of the 99%.
    26 Feb 2013, 01:46 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    John, Was that the intent? I would doubt it was the intent when they sold it to the public that HOV lanes would be built for billions in USD's to accommodate the 1%.

     

    I do however not have a problem with using it as a way to stimulate EV adoption if that's the intent. It would be better if EV's made sense, as you suggest, but that's another matter.

     

    PS It's probably cheaper to find someone that needs a ride in your direction and to give him/her a free ride so you can use the HOV lane. I think there are established groups and sites in large cities that are set up for this. Now that's a good idea other than the safety aspect.
    26 Feb 2013, 03:16 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1412) | Send Message
     
    I never understood carpool lanes. Anyone can see that they don't materially change driver behavior and actually worsen congestion. Politicians think they have the power to do anything.
    26 Feb 2013, 02:46 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2108) | Send Message
     
    Ranma, you are mistaken. Pols DO have the power; what they lack is wisdom and dedication to actually "helping solve the problem".

     

    Passing inane or insane special interest legislation isn't what I think the founders had in mind.
    26 Feb 2013, 02:56 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13444) | Send Message
     
    Yes, they most certainly do have the power, and the worst part is...

     

    We gave it to them by electing them.

     

    Next party or gathering you attend start asking people who their representative in Congress is. No details, not a hard edged sort of question, just, who is it?

     

    Don't be shocked when you discover that even well heeled, well educated groups are clueless.

     

    Americans spend more effort deciding which brand of toilet paper to buy than they do selecting their national leadership.

     

    The wonder is NOT that this process selects politicians that do dumb things, but that the country has survived this long.
    26 Feb 2013, 04:07 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    No wonder I keep buying Charmin but my butt hurts!

     

    On a more directly aligned topic.

     

    Wonder how those "High Power Density" Exide with Graphite AGM batteries are holding up? Note the CY that they are targeting for introduction.

     

    If you are at a stop light in the city and your Exide AGM battery is flat due to poor DCA what do you do with an electric turbo charger when you need get up and go to save your behind (Back on the behind train of thought. Thanks TB)?

     

    LC SUPER HYBRID TECHNOLOGY AT FUTURE CAR CONFERENCE IN STUTTGART

     

    "Allan Cooper, European coordinator ALABC will present a technical paper while CPT exhibits its technology to an audience of engineers and scientists explaining how hybrid electric vehicle performance can be achieved at significantly lower cost using low voltage switched reluctance electrical machines for boosting and energy recovery of thermal engines combined with the major breakthrough of high power density lead-carbon batteries."

     

    http://bit.ly/WpCSXE
    26 Feb 2013, 05:12 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17307) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: I was surprised that no one commented on the two-battery set up depicted in the link from KentG.

     

    http://bit.ly/XZ4LFH

     

    I presume one is SLI and the other for the supercharger and hotel loads? If so, in heavy "spirited" driving, such as might be seen on a short road course or heavy stop-and-go urban traffic, I have to wonder how long the battery that powers the supercharger will last w/o a high DCA capability like a *real* PbC has.

     

    Maybe, since it's a prototype, any production runs will eventually get a PbC in it for that function.

     

    HardToLove
    26 Feb 2013, 05:28 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    The LC Super Hybrid is not a prototype. It's a demonstration retrofit of a VW Passat TSL that was built by Controlled Power Technologies with ALABC support to show what can be done to performance using mechanical components from CPT including the electric supercharger they sold to Valeo and a liquid cooled 2 kw starter generator that CPT wants to sell.

     

    The two batteries are spiral wound AGMs from Exide with carbon additives in the lead paste. While they give the batteries passing credit, the real purpose of the vehicle is to showcase the mechanical components.

     

    It's the same car we talked to death this time last year when it first appeared at the Geneva Motor Show. The presentation I uploaded to my Dropbox in March of last year is here:

     

    http://bit.ly/xSrwbM
    26 Feb 2013, 05:48 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7634) | Send Message
     
    "I presume one is SLI and the other for the supercharger and hotel loads?"

     

    No, look at the wiring, + to + and - to - that's a parallel setup which doubles the amp hour capacity but keeps the voltage at 12V.
    27 Feb 2013, 08:44 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8823) | Send Message
     
    HTL, I know this group has discussed this before in this forum but I think we didn't kick it around enough because they initially presented it with Exide AGM batteries. I don't know how exactly they are splitting up the power bus in this app. Is it an SLI battery for the engine and two AGM batteries for the supercharger (oops. silly me I said turbo)? Or is it two AGM batteries for the entire vehicle. Or perhaps one flooded and one AGM battery.

     

    What ever it is I can't imagine that the AGM batteries with carbon additives have enough DCA over an acceptable period of time to keep the super charger winding up under pretty common usage patterns. And you and I know there are times when acceleration is just as important as brakes when it comes to safe driving. When you are familiar with what a car can do accelerating and it lets you down you can get in a ton of trouble. Things like merging and passing could become a real problem if you can't depend on the vehicle to deliver. It's one thing never having it. It's quite an entirely different story when you have it sometimes or almost long enough. Or maybe they will just add a light and say "Caution don't merge or pass now and if someone is coming at you with a gun at a stop light roll up your window."! 8oP

     

    Anyway, I think you're right on the money here. This is good PbC territory. I think John mentioned that someone at the ALABC was perhaps a little disappointed that PbC was not placed in the application. I'll let John talk to this point as I remember he did comment on the topic.
    26 Feb 2013, 06:08 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4428) | Send Message
     
    Anybody ever seen the circuit for this electric wonder? I ask because I can think of ways to lighten the battery load since there is no launch assist involved. Just how much capacitance is in the controller? If enough, the battery might only need to make up the difference (which I've no idea what the draw is) that the generator can't deliver. Just a thought.
    26 Feb 2013, 06:17 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4639) | Send Message
     
    I am pretty sure if you go back that they approached AXPW and TG turned them down. If I am not mistaken, JP said then it did not make sense to take up time and resources for one experimental car.

     

    It's been said before many times that AXPW does not have the money or human resources to put batteries in many experiments.

     

    I have disagreed with this strategy....but who knows, I expect we find out soon enough if TG's gamble pays off.
    26 Feb 2013, 08:12 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29507) | Send Message
     
    My opinion was based on the LC Super Hybrid's primary purpose, showing off new mechanical technologies for micro-hybrids that were developed by CPT and apparently haven't drawn the OEM interest CPT believes they should draw.

     

    In the LC Super Hybrid, the battery is not the star of the show. In fact the battery manufacturer is only mentioned once in the presentation. The car is all about the wondrous performance of the CPT mechanisms, not the battery.

     

    When a small company is given a choice between accepting a supporting role in somebody else's show or being the lead player in its own show, there's simply no contest. The supporting role isn't worth the candle unless there's nothing better do with the time, talent and money.
    26 Feb 2013, 08:22 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo
    , contributor
    Comments (350) | Send Message
     
    Must...not...go...OT. Must...stop...myself. Fail.
    Well, at least it's quasi-scientific.