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  • New naval yard article after I post first.
    7 Mar 2013, 08:06 AM Reply Like
  • frames all messed up for anyone else?
    7 Mar 2013, 08:06 AM Reply Like
  • Yes, it is the government parsing data.
    7 Mar 2013, 08:09 AM Reply Like
  • Mathieu: Yes, totally scrogged. I'm e-mailing now.


    7 Mar 2013, 08:23 AM Reply Like
  • New report on Naval smart grid.


    Small picture and fine print at top center of article.


    Shane Trexler, Energy Engineer with SilTek Incorporated, completes the installation of the Washington Navy Yards Visitor’s Center Axion Power International Inc. Energy Hub used to monitor energy usage. The project helped the Visitor’s Center become a NetZero building, meaning it produces more energy annually than it consumes. Naval District Washington is utilizing innovative technology to improve energy efficiency with the implementation of its Smart Grid Pilot Program.


    Promises three more follow up articles:
    "This story is part one of a four-part series on the NDW Smart Grid Pilot Program."
    7 Mar 2013, 08:10 AM Reply Like
  • jveal,
    You beat everyone by two hours. Must be a new record.


    "They (Naval District Washington) have accomplished the development of the smart grid industrial control architecture that has been tested, validated and certified by fleet cyber command for Department of the Navy use."


    Since it has been "certified" - and hopefully this would include the mini-powercube, maybe we will get some business in the pipeline.
    7 Mar 2013, 08:24 AM Reply Like
  • metro, I think you read the time stamp wrong. MM posted in the same minute I did.
    7 Mar 2013, 08:30 AM Reply Like
  • I remember someone said this project failed miserably.
    7 Mar 2013, 08:30 AM Reply Like
  • Some quotes that give promise of future expansion:


    “NDW Smart Grid will enable the Navy to develop policies to enable the most cost-effective approach to phased Navy-wide enterprise implementation, to include determination of total ownership costs and efficiency gains to inform future budget cycles.”


    Davenport explained that within NDW, the Smart Grid Pilot Team initially pilots a technology leveraging existing assets and identifying new opportunities. Independent testing and fleet cyber accreditation ensure a clean solution that can be competitive in the industry for a commercial off-the-shelf acquisition and is part of the pilot process. Once these capabilities have been piloted, the team deploys them throughout the region to validate the scalability and interoperability and collect data to support a return on investment and savings cost.


    These projects have already seen success throughout the region, said Davenport, with more expected.
    7 Mar 2013, 08:35 AM Reply Like
  • Metro, You're so much more handsome without the hat! Plus it might have a little to do with the Dubai sun? lol
    Let's hope the Navy has some money left in the budget to spread this around. Or as a tax payer maybe not?
    7 Mar 2013, 08:45 AM Reply Like
  • If you click on the picture, it will expand. If you click on it again, it will expand even more.


    There is some Schneider Electric equipment that I can see.
    7 Mar 2013, 08:50 AM Reply Like
  • BugEYE, I don't think we've ever gotten significant feedback on how the project was going.


    Perhaps you were checking Yadoodle for news and saw a troll dropping?
    7 Mar 2013, 08:53 AM Reply Like
  • Bu ... I remember remarking about lateness of the project, but don't recall anything about project failure.
    7 Mar 2013, 09:57 AM Reply Like
  • BugEYE,
    Some people have claimed that (mainly the persona OMY on Yahoo), because there has never been any follow-up information before now, and because there hasn't been any other orders from the Navy since. It's like many things related to Axion. Nothing moves at the speed we want, so some people claim it is a failure because of that.
    I did find the description of the system interesting. They didn't call it an Axion mini-cube or Powercube. They called it an Axion Hub, which sounds like the system is more inline with the Hubs that Rosewater is selling.
    7 Mar 2013, 10:20 AM Reply Like
  • IIndelco et al: I believe it was one of our trolls that came in a nd posited everything failed and included that as well - hung his hat on something like AXPW didn't deliver batteries? JP corrected, IIRC, that it was the primary contract that was holding things up?


    7 Mar 2013, 10:22 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks HTL, I remember directionally now the event you suggest.
    7 Mar 2013, 10:37 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco,
    yes yes must be those wonderful creatures who even have wisdom to change identities all the time.
    troll - A supernatural creature of Scandinavian folklore, variously portrayed as a friendly or mischievous dwarf or as a giant, that lives in caves, in the hills, or under bridges.
    7 Mar 2013, 10:46 AM Reply Like
  • BugEYE, Yes!



    But the troll Omy from the land of Yadoodle cares about us and wants to make sure we are aware of the REAL truth. That's why she changed her name to Stranger...., so she could continue her quest for our salvation with a new face after making an a$% out of herself with her prior mask on. What any saintly troll would do for the good of all.


    Anyway, She sends good fortune for our success.

    7 Mar 2013, 11:35 AM Reply Like
  • jveal,
    Sorry, it is old age and the inability to read at a certain distance: kind of that unsweet spot where you can't read with or without glasses. I even looked twice.
    7 Mar 2013, 02:36 PM Reply Like
  • I can resemble that remark.
    7 Mar 2013, 03:12 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco,
    The sun kept reflecting off the tinfoil into my eyes, blinding me and negating the affects of the TFH.
    8 Mar 2013, 01:55 AM Reply Like
  • That's the trouble with Dubai Metro, nowhere near as much cloud cover as you had in Portugal.
    8 Mar 2013, 06:59 AM Reply Like
  • Lack of cloud cover. . .


    Any signs of solar energy in Dubai?
    8 Mar 2013, 08:58 AM Reply Like
  • All


    Anyone has any news about the FERC report on the frequency regulation of behind-the-meter assets? I remember TG a while ago saying that a study was ongoing with FERC and PJM, but that has gone under the radar...


    Thanks for any update!
    7 Mar 2013, 08:45 AM Reply Like
  • this was the last post on #214, it deserves a look & watching:
    I wonder what Akerson knows that we don't?


    4:57 AM GM (GM) is working on an electric car that will have a range of up to 200 miles, CEO Dan Akerson said yesterday. "There will be breakthroughs in battery technology, they're on the horizon," Akerson said. This year, GM is bringing out a 75-80 mile EV version of the Chevrolet Spark. (See fuel efficiency) Comment! [Consumer]
    7 Mar 2013, 09:07 AM Reply Like
  • Envia?
    7 Mar 2013, 09:40 AM Reply Like
  • LT,
    The Chevy Spark EV has been in the works for a couple of years. A123 made a big deal out of it when they got the contract to supply the batteries for it. That was until everyone found out it was only going to be rolled out in California and only 2000 maximum were going to be made a year.
    I don't know anything about the 200 mile EV.
    7 Mar 2013, 10:24 AM Reply Like
  • The "200 mile range" is the interesting one.
    7 Mar 2013, 11:19 AM Reply Like
  • Probably similar to the VW car that can get 260mpg that was discussed on here a few concentrators back. A battery pack that covered the first 30 miles then a small gas tank on a small efficient engine. Due to testing protocal it would earn "260 mpg" but real world driving was something like 100 mpg (first 30 in electric + 70 mpg on gas)
    7 Mar 2013, 12:07 PM Reply Like
  • LT: The ""There will be breakthroughs in battery technology, they're on the horizon,""


    is what's interesting to me. More DOE money on the way for sure.


    "Hopium", as purchased by the Federal Government is a lot more expensive than the Mary-J now legal in some states and you get a lot less "bang" for your buck too.


    7 Mar 2013, 12:15 PM Reply Like
  • HTL,


    Obama to Tackle Climate Change Soon, Advisor Says


    "Obama is proposing to use $2 billion in revenue from oil and gas development to transition cars from fossil fuels."

    7 Mar 2013, 12:23 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco, thanks, thats encouraging! Had not seen that.
    7 Mar 2013, 12:49 PM Reply Like
  • Iindelco: well at least his priorities are straight: chase more pipe dreams and ignore the deficit. So I guess he's maintaining "revenue neutral" in this case, huh?


    ... In our dreams.


    EDIT: "“We can't do natural gas at the expense of renewables,”. Next step - save trees - kill the TP industry.
    7 Mar 2013, 12:52 PM Reply Like
  • I am sure there will be more DOE money, and there probably should be.
    But, I would think that for GM to say this means he knows something. Maybe something already in the lab.


    There is no doubt in my mind that all forms of start/stop and electric hybrids are will be over many years before it hits 100%.
    7 Mar 2013, 05:40 PM Reply Like
  • "Believe it or not, the federal deficit has fallen faster over the past three years than it has in any such stretch since demobilization from World War II.
    In fact, outside of that post-WWII era, the only time the deficit has fallen faster was when the economy relapsed in 1937, turning the Great Depression into a decade-long affair.


    Here is the chart.


    So maybe we can deal with facts and reality,instead of sound bites.


    Soon people in this country will be using our "oil glut" as a reason to stop conserving oil. They will continue to put their head in the sand as to conserving all resources. I'm glad the administration is not stopping. Maybe all the ideas aren't great. But at least we have some new ideas out there.


    Start/stop is the best oil saver ever. We need to get that idea through to the politicians that don't know that to be a fact. I even know a company in Pennsylvania that can help accomplish that.
    7 Mar 2013, 05:50 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist: Facts? I had a longer reply, but then I just decided that any old government stats must be right. I see his article is based on OMB. Strange just this A.M. I had read an article that mentions them.


    Does "off balance sheet" maybe affect those numbers?


    If you want to read some stuff that's not based on government manipulation, PM me and I'll send a couple articles that SA published recently. And there's tons out there from reputable folks, IMO.


    7 Mar 2013, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • HTL,
    I apologize if I offended you. Didn't mean it as a personal attack.
    After re-reading it certainly was not what I expect from myself.


    However, I do not find this forum to be anyone's arena from which to criticize the President of the United States. Yours was one critizing policy and that you certainly have the right to do. As I have said before.
    I respect the President for being the President, no matter which party he is. I defended this country not caring about the politics. I will continue to defend it not caring about the politics.


    I simply like it better when personal attacks on our President, do not take place on this board.
    But my apologies for being overzelous ,in this case.
    7 Mar 2013, 06:17 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist: I criticized Nixon. I criticized Clinton. I criticized Bush. I criticize Obama. All based on what I perceive as failures of morality.


    Eisenhower, Regan, Ford, Carter, ... were reasonably moral people, AFAICT, that I did not and do not criticize.


    I have a lot of respect for the Office of The President. People who, IMO, bring discredit to it deserve criticism.


    7 Mar 2013, 06:26 PM Reply Like
  • There are lots of possible replies/answers to this; but this isn't the place for them.
    Deep breaths let it go.
    7 Mar 2013, 06:28 PM Reply Like
  • HTL, George W. Bush?


    I rather liked George H.W. Bush but not a fan of W.
    7 Mar 2013, 06:34 PM Reply Like
  • >froggey77 ... And yet the other side of the coin is expressed openly & often ... right here, without thought in passing as if it is just the common accepted wisdom & fact worthy of denigration.
    7 Mar 2013, 06:35 PM Reply Like
  • Iindelco: 100% agreed. My only complaint about H.W. was the "read my lips" failure. But I think he was a moral person and a reasonably decent prez. As a commander in chief I think the way he conducted the campaign and his decision to limit the excursion were correct, for a multitude of reasons.


    7 Mar 2013, 06:37 PM Reply Like
  • DR
    Agreed. I simply didn't find a good way to say both sides have had their swing at bat. Time to stop.
    7 Mar 2013, 07:11 PM Reply Like
  • Somewhere else.
    7 Mar 2013, 07:30 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist, your surprise is understandable. It involves two issues of deficit vs debt:
    1.) The debt does keep going up, NEVER down.
    2.) The sum of deficits do not add up to the debt as one might logically assume. Look into the definitions.
    8 Mar 2013, 03:50 AM Reply Like
  • Blackouts are so 2003: Synching the power grid



    "The design for a better power grid could help reduce both the frequency of blackouts and the cost of electricity, as well as offer an improved plan for handling the intermittent power sources of renewable energy, such as solar and wind power, which can destabilize the network.




    Having a network that can synchronize spontaneously and recover from failures in real time—in other words, a self-healing power grid—could prevent such blackouts. To help achieve this, researchers devised guidelines that power companies could apply as they add power generators to the network or tweak existing generators. Their findings are published in the journal Nature Physics."


    This article teases a lot, but doesn't actually tell you much. Anyone have access to the journal Nature Physics?
    7 Mar 2013, 09:27 AM Reply Like
  • I would like to ask if ePower is going to be required to get any type of government certification for its conversion kits.


    When a company like FSYS develops a new NG kit for a particular vehicle, they have to get it certified by the EPA, which takes a long time. I suspect this is a safety thing, but it is also probably for emissions purposes as well.


    I assume that big rigs have to pass some sort of emissions/safety inspections. Wouldn't some gov't agency have to sign off on these kits before they could be sold/installed/deployed?
    7 Mar 2013, 10:33 AM Reply Like
  • Milhouse: Normally the engine manufacturer and/or the truck manufacturer would do this sort of thing for the IC engine. If an already-certified IC engine is being used and ePower doesn't fiddle with any of the systems involved on that, adding batteries and motors shouldn't require much of anything.


    If they are changing the stuff in the fuel system, engine pollution control systems or the programming for them, then I think some kind of cert process would be needed.


    In ignorance though,
    7 Mar 2013, 10:56 AM Reply Like
  • Milhouse, I think its a great question.


    I know that, as of last summer, Parker Hannifan was using bigger engines than required by its series hybrid drive (hydraulic) because of the need for EPA certification: "Smaller engines? Not yet. The RunWise and package delivery hydraulic hybrid vehicles now available have the same engines as the corresponding conventional vehicles. “That’s mostly tied to EPA certifications,” Terblanche says. “If we had a four-cylinder, EPA-certified engine, we could certainly use it.”
    7 Mar 2013, 12:04 PM Reply Like
  • An advantage of the Glider Kit...


    Most locations that require EPA compliant trucks look at the year of the truck rather than the EPA compliance of the engine. The year the Glider is built is the year on the registration. Some Glider kits have pre EPA 04 engines yet they roam freely. I suppose one day they will catch on but until then...
    7 Mar 2013, 12:09 PM Reply Like
  • Tim, Believe you're right. Spoke with a gentleman I know who talks about this quite a bit for special needs trucks. They are rebuilding older trucks with new everything to get around some of the hardware that meets new emissions requirements so that they can avoid what they feel are far less reliable vehicles for their niche market.
    7 Mar 2013, 12:15 PM Reply Like
  • i want millhouse asking questions.
    7 Mar 2013, 11:52 PM Reply Like
  • Your tax dollars at work!


    Batteries: Scientists see how and where disruptive structures form and cause voltage fading January 25, 2013


    Read more at:


    "(—Starting as a few atoms long, thorns forming on the electrode's surface in a specialized lithium battery cause the battery to gradually fade, according to scientists at Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL) and Argonne National Laboratory. Working with powerful imaging technologies in DOE's Environmental Molecular Sciences Laboratory (EMSL), the team determined that a kind of thorn with the crystallographic spinel structure grows out of the electrode material and eventually leads to the complete conversion of the whole electrode material into the spinel structure. Furthermore, growth of this spinel structure liberates lithium oxide molecules, causing cracking and pitting. The damaged electrode thereby fades, releasing less energy with each charge/discharge cycle
    7 Mar 2013, 10:56 AM Reply Like
  • See also:


    Dendrite sprouts short out lithium batteries

    7 Mar 2013, 12:12 PM Reply Like
  • wtc - Yup! - back (40 years) to the future:


    Axion Power Concentrator 207: Feb. 10: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]




    So what's so horrible about a little ole dendrite?


    Well, just one little ole dendrite that "burns" itself off: not much, maybe.


    But when it also "creates" a hole in the separator(s) allowing a short between two plates: somewhat more of a problem.


    And when that short drains the remaining stored energy of the whole cell: well, Houston, we've got a potential problem.


    And when the whole battery (all the other connected cells also completely discharge thru this little ole simple short: well, Houston, we have a really big problem.


    Now, when that battery voltage is 4v, or 32v, or 48v, or 96v, etc., we get differing ultimate results, time dependent, of course.


    Celgard used to help 40 years ago.



    PS: driving a nail thru one cell to create a short and the dissipation of one cells' energy is one thing; dissipating the energy of the whole string of attached cells of the battery, is another.


    Elementary, dear Watson. (? - is that correct?)


    Feb 12 12:52 PM|5 Likes|Report Abuse|Link to Comment Axion Power Concentrator 207: Feb. 10: Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications Norfolk Southern [View instapost]
    7 Mar 2013, 01:11 PM Reply Like
  • When ATDF is not on the field all day long, things are much less ... "interesting".


    Now trades since 10:01 and no change in the best bid/asks since 9:59, excerpt an increase to 15K bid at $0.314.


    So if ATDF is gone, I wonder if that suggests the "heavy" sellers, whomever they may be, are also gone?


    Today would suggest so.


    7 Mar 2013, 11:44 AM Reply Like
  • More teasin ... don't have access to the whole article


    From the "wouldn't that be a kick in the pants" department ...


    Mich. Seeks Jurisdiction Over A123's $100M Tax Break Transfer


    By Jamie Santo



    Law360, New York (March 06, 2013, 11:07 PM ET) -- The Michigan agency that awarded bankrupt battery maker A123 Systems Inc. up to $100 million in tax incentives asked a Delaware bankruptcy judge Wednesday to abstain from ruling on whether these agreements can be passed on to the company's new owner, saying the issue should be handled in Michigan.


    Michigan granted the tax breaks to A123 under the since-repealed Michigan Business Tax and state law now forbids the agreements from being transferred, according to a motion filed by Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette.


    The state has...
    7 Mar 2013, 11:52 AM Reply Like
  • Here is an interesting article about manufacturing lead-acid batteries using semiconductor equipment.


    "Rethinking the humble lead acid battery with chip and disk drive machines"



    No mention of how many cycles though.


    "One of Gridtential’s core innovations is that it’s using manufacturing processes from the semiconductor and hard disk drive industry. Traditional lead acid batteries are made using lead plates with the active battery material pasted or printed onto the plate, which can make the layers thick and over time they can become detached from the plate. Gridtential is using the modern manufacturing techniques of the IT industry to create a thin layer of active material and have it bonded to the plate.


    Beekhuis tells me that the manufacturing process makes the battery more robust (lasts longer), have a lot thinner active layer, and also makes for a lighter battery. The thin layer also means that the battery can charge and discharge with a higher efficiency, so it loses less energy to heat. In addition the Gridtential battery can be charged and discharged more than a regular battery, and can be charged and discharged to 80 percent of its capacity. In contrast basic lead acid batteries are more commonly charged and discharged closer to 40 to 50 percent of their capacity in order to make them last longer."
    7 Mar 2013, 12:18 PM Reply Like
  • I wonder if that would help with the positive plate on PbC?
    They claim lower weight, costs, and higher energy density.
    7 Mar 2013, 02:57 PM Reply Like
  • Froggey,


    I doubt it would help with a conventional LAB or the PbC. The image in the article makes the Gridtential battery look like a bipolar design, using a conductive membrane to separate the active mass components, much like the Atraverda ceramic bipolar battery. The article makes no mention of whether it is a bipolar type design, but the mention of "printing" the active mass material in a thin layer to a flat plate suggests such.


    see a neat little animation of the bipolar design:


    Ultimately, energy density is related to how much active mass is available to react, not how thick or thin it is. Eliminating the lead grids and conductor lugs in favor of a conductive membrane or ceramic plate can lower the total weight of the battery for a given reactive mass, as less lead is needed for the non-active conductor substrate. This is the primary advantage of the bipolar design.


    Bipolar battery design:
    7 Mar 2013, 03:12 PM Reply Like
  • SM
    I'm more familiar with bipolar people than bipolar batteries. ;-)
    7 Mar 2013, 07:15 PM Reply Like
  • thx SM
    7 Mar 2013, 08:32 PM Reply Like
  • Greentech Media also weighed in on Gridtential:



    "Regarding sales channels for these batteries, "The ideal partner is a large distributor. They understand the application and have access to the customer." But the CEO acknowledged, "First we'll have to find end customers."


    As far as the utility-scale grid storage market is concerned, Beekhuis said, "People are guessing. The market doesn't exist yet because there is no low-cost, high-performance market product. We see that market as nascent and pretty far in the future."


    "We're trying to be realistic about what it takes to break into the utility market," he added. "It takes quality and reliability data and life cycle data before a utility adopts. An advantage is that lead-acid is known and low cost." However, he acknowledged, "We'd like to generate revenue in the meantime.""
    12 Mar 2013, 01:07 PM Reply Like
  • I don't know if this was posted before. It's a CNN report on Vorbeck Materials' graphene and their claims of how it will make batteries in the next two years that will have double the power or half the weight of the current ones without graphene.

    7 Mar 2013, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • I'm skeptical whenever someone claims a new technology will be available in a couple of years. I'll bet that graphene wont make consumer products for another 5 to 10 years.
    7 Mar 2013, 05:16 PM Reply Like
  • FYI - NTSD report on Boeing Li failures:

    7 Mar 2013, 01:56 PM Reply Like
  • 787 battery pack rated 75 ah @ 29.6 volts weights 61.8 pounds(28.03/kg). That is to say energy density of 787 battery pack is merely 79.2 wh/kg when cells, case, wires and electronics are put together. And this battery pack does not have any cooling system to further reduce its density.
    7 Mar 2013, 08:45 PM Reply Like
  • Now that GM's got their act together! ((::))


    Akerson calls on Obama to form cohesive 30-year energy policy


    "Akerson's speech, delivered at the IHS CERAWeek conference in Houston, included a few details about GM's energy priorities. He reiterated the company's commitment to putting 500,000 electrified vehicles on the road by 2017, a figure that includes cars with start-stop systems, pure hybrids, plug-in hybrids and pure electric vehicles."

    7 Mar 2013, 03:17 PM Reply Like
  • For an automaker that sold approx. 2.6 mil vehicles in 2012, a cumulative total of 500k by 2017 with some type of electrification is teeny---still on the order of the historical 3-4%. I hope and assume that the 500k excludes micro-hybrid s/s, or else the Lux/Pike s/s US adoption numbers might be way too high.


    Here's some more verbage to help define what GM means by "some type of electrification":


    "GM is already on track to sell more than 50,000 electrified vehicles this year, including the Volt and vehicles with eAssist light electrification technology such as the Buick LaCrosse, Regal, and Chevrolet Malibu. “Our commitment to eAssist is unwavering,” Barra said. “In fact, our future portfolio calls for eAssist to be on hundreds of thousands of GM vehicles annually by 2017.”



    "The eAssist is GM's name for a mild hybrid system..."


    Actually, I'm kinda laughing at their data presentation choice. Whenever you want the number to look high, you use a very long period. When you want it to look low, you use a very short period. A lot less impressive to the mathematically challenged if they were to say, "1/6th of a vehicle per minute." lol
    7 Mar 2013, 03:55 PM Reply Like
  • "... 500,000 electrified vehicles on the road by 2017, a figure that includes cars with start-stop systems, pure hybrids, plug-in hybrids and pure electric vehicles."


    If he's going to say with a straight face that they will count SS vehicles as "electrified", sure sounds like greenwash cheating to me... I mean, the enviro community already felt all ripped off when they learned the Volt was actually more a parallel hybrid and not a series electric car with simple Ice generator attached. As soon as they found out that the hated ICE directly drove the wheels at highway speed there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth... think they're going to let GM get away with including SS vehicles in their "electrified" bragging? I think not. For them it's 100% battery or it ain't nothin'.
    7 Mar 2013, 04:07 PM Reply Like
  • Thus far GM, to the best of my knowledge, has not launched any simple SS systems with AGM batteries for hotel loads in the US. So this might all be launch assist, PHEV, EV and possibly something else for the future. I'm guessing GM is not going to launch SS in the US with AGM. If you were trying to work your way back to getting a better reputation would you?
    7 Mar 2013, 04:22 PM Reply Like
  • ii, I agree that it would not be a good move for GM or anyone to launch a stop/start system with something they knew would quit working in a few months. However, the automobile companies don't always do what is best. Their absolute best option would be to surprise everyone with S/S that actually worked with "Axion inside." :-))
    7 Mar 2013, 04:30 PM Reply Like
  • The only reason S/S is greenwash is because of the crappy battery.


    Otherwise S/S is the best green technology out there because it can be implemented with virtually every new vehicle in the world RIGHT NOW to reduce vehicle fuel use by a quick 10%.


    And with a 3 year pay-back period, you can't afford not to!


    7 Mar 2013, 04:43 PM Reply Like
  • jveal, from your words to our wallets.


    We know GM has been testing the PbC, but I don't recall hearing anything else---comments, timing, etc. Super double-secret NDA. For all we know, GM's ready for a test fleet of their own. Or maybe that's not until 2017. Or in the year 2525, if mankind is still alive...or maybe it's just all jive?
    7 Mar 2013, 04:46 PM Reply Like
  • GM might be the surprise. They have been testing the PbC with their e-assit program for over 2 years now. What could they have discovered:
    This battery really works,
    This battery is less expensive than lithium,
    This battery doesn't blow up the testing lab,
    This battery really accepts the regen brake energy


    Hey, this PbC thing really does work.


    My favorite part is where they say they are committed to the E-Assist program. That warms my Axion heart.
    7 Mar 2013, 04:51 PM Reply Like
  • Jveal, My "something else for the future." option.


    I really believe GM will not launch SS with AGM in the US. Their new 2013 full size pick-up truck does not have SS. Chrysler's does. GM has done more dumb things than I can count but I'm not counting on adding this to the list.


    Would they do it with PbC. I think they would based on the tech. if the value proposition is there. Thus far their launch assist is selling OK on larger vehicles like Buick's but it's not doing so well on smaller vehicles like Malibu's. Too pricey. GM needs something else.


    Maybe we're HTL's Horshack vying for GM's low level electrification. Ooh ooh (Hand flailing around in the air!)
    7 Mar 2013, 05:04 PM Reply Like
  • Gosh, what's wrong with a string of "5 year plans" instead of one long 30 year plan? Popularized by Russia, USSR, China, etc. :-)


    Or maybe they should make the plan term match congressional election times. Naw, congress would never go for that.
    7 Mar 2013, 05:06 PM Reply Like
  • D, I'm with you. But it just seems disingenuous (and amusing) that they would try to call SS vehicles "electrified"...kind of a bait and switch to mollify the EV fan crowd. They want the cachet and green cred that "electrified" brings, but evidently aren't going to make EVs in any serious number... I mean he says 500,000 electrified vehicles.. which gets hearts all a flutter... I mean that sounds significant... yay, EV ftw!!! But then, wait, look, that includes SS... soooo... the makeup could be 450,000 SS cars, 40,000 e-assist, 7,500 Volts, and a measly 500 BEVs... does that sound like a huge E-revolution? All I mean is that it's lip service to the holy EV but the real business is SS... saves a lot more gas, but some quarters are gonna have heartburn...
    7 Mar 2013, 05:07 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist: Didn't we hear from TG at the last shareholders' conference that GM was not moving forward with Axion?


    I'm foggy on this one, but I believe that's what I recall, and I hope I'm recalling incorrectly.
    7 Mar 2013, 05:07 PM Reply Like
  • If GM would use PbCs for their eAssist that would warm my heart, too: “Our commitment to eAssist is unwavering,” Barra said. “In fact, our future portfolio calls for eAssist to be on hundreds of thousands of GM vehicles annually by 2017.”
    7 Mar 2013, 05:14 PM Reply Like
  • Maya,
    If that is true I missed it. I thought we were still in private ( non-government testing)


    But, Its GM. I haven't checked but I think they are the only Corporation to ever go from #1 in the World to Bankruptcy. An excellent study of poor management.
    7 Mar 2013, 05:15 PM Reply Like
  • Maya: By "shareholders conference", you mean Q3, 11/15/12 CC?


    I just checked the SA transcript - only mention of GM was in Q&A responding to a Q about other OEMs testing: "... Regardless of where BMW got to, they would still need to get from second base back to home plate because their individual requirements are different than what a BMW or General Motors or another OEM might be. So they still need to do that testing, ...".


    Maybe another quarterly report or annual general meeting?


    7 Mar 2013, 05:21 PM Reply Like
  • HTL,
    I would be surprised that this group would never had discussed a development like "GM quits the PbC" project. The trolls would not let that one get away. My memory is not great, but Maya has had a touch of Peruvian sun I think :-)
    7 Mar 2013, 05:28 PM Reply Like
  • Maya,
    I sure never heard a thumbs down on a possible GM relationship at some point.




    I remember the term "Mother Motors" when they were afraid the government would break them up for anti trust reasons. A derivation of "Ma Bell" which they did break up. They were selling parts at one point to AMC below cost and to Chrysler at cost so they didn't go out of business. I recall a market share of about 51%. That's what happens when you're so successful you forget your business. Then when you're challenged.

    7 Mar 2013, 05:34 PM Reply Like
  • ii,
    "Then when you're challenged."


    Yes like when a cheap little Honda, Datsun, or Toyota is sold in your marketplace. You can laugh at them, Chide them, or simply learn from them and compete. Who was laughing at whom a few years ago.


    This subject always gets me riled up. Edward Demming tried to help Corporate America understand quality, but no one really listened when they should have.
    7 Mar 2013, 05:38 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist: Peruvian sun would be a welcome sight to see. I guess I'm mistaken.
    7 Mar 2013, 05:41 PM Reply Like
  • There has never been any mention of GM not moving forward with Axion. Sounds like it's about time for me to buy some more, if sentiment has gotten this low...;^) Or should I wait until someone posts that NS and ePower hate the PbC, and one 'sploded an Island Republic?
    7 Mar 2013, 05:48 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist: "Honduran sun" - they're different because of the altitudes! ;-))


    7 Mar 2013, 05:50 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist, Yep I remember the laughs. Did my first Camry contract for KY in the late 80's. Half way through the program I announced to myself. "GM's in trouble these guy's know their S&*T. GM never woke up. Some did but it's hard to change years of bad habits, contracts, and and and.


    GM was certainly not the only one but they are the poster child.
    7 Mar 2013, 05:55 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist,


    I would also love to believe that, but for the time being and judging by the pace of how things are progressing, I am starting to lose my patience each and every day.


    Let's hope AXPW brings some good sales-related news at the forthcoming CC...
    8 Mar 2013, 06:02 AM Reply Like
  • Refuse, Utility and Other Big Trucks Now Have a Hybrid Option from Allison


    by NGT News on Wednesday March 06, 2013



    "Allison Transmission Holdings Inc. has debuted its H 3000 hybrid propulsion system for medium- and heavy-duty commercial vehicles in the distribution, refuse, utility and shuttle sectors.


    The fully automatic parallel hybrid system is based on the Allison 3000 transmission paired with a motor-generator, power electronics and lithium-ion battery packs. The modular battery packs allow an optimal amount of energy capacity to be tailored to a specific vehicle or duty cycle, the company says."
    7 Mar 2013, 03:24 PM Reply Like
  • HTL,
    Is it my imagination or did someone purchase 50K shares at the beginning of the day and then sell them at the end of the day? Or vise versa?
    7 Mar 2013, 04:07 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech: If they did, they didn't do well.


    Including pre-mkt of 12.5K: 49.5K shares through 9:31:38 VWAP $0.3114 mixed buy (9,775) & sell (39,725). I think the daily short tonight *might* provide some illumination, but unsure.


    ATDF was notably absent today and it looked like things might hold up. But late in the day NITE, predominately, started filling in for ATDF and started dropping asks and bids sporadically.


    I'll need to review more (lots of entries to look at).


    I'm *guessing* ATM, prior to a close look, that it's something else as the EOD was still predominately "sells" in the last 22 minutes. But if some MM shorted in the A.M. and was the buyer in the P.M. (48930 shares VWAP in those 22 minutes $0.3079), they did alright.


    Of course, what time-frames to look at is an iffy proposition. I might be in the ballpark or outside the fence - no way to know.


    7 Mar 2013, 04:32 PM Reply Like
  • I wanted to avoid name-calling in frustration, but whoever market dumped 50k shares at a time like this is a COWARD.


    Every time who get a piece of news, some genius thinks they can scalp a few.
    7 Mar 2013, 04:39 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma: Emotion is not good when trying to invest or trade. Different folks have different risk profiles and their job is to do the best for themselves that they can.


    They are not cowards - they are being prudent for their circumstances, including risk-tolerance, portfolio size, resources in general, ...


    Having said that, there are also players with plenty of $ to deploy, such as MMs, whose job is to make money. They will do so.


    We can't mitigate the damage if we let emotion drive our decisions.


    7 Mar 2013, 04:44 PM Reply Like
  • HTL> "Emotion is not good when trying to invest or trade." I'm learning that my emotions are my worst enemy in trading. It's as if someone came out with an attachment for the front of a car that prevented injuries to deer if struck. OH! How wonderful! I'll buy some stock in that company! Right. I love Axion's technology. However, that doesn't translate into sales.


    Great technology doesn't count if it's not feeding the bulldog. If I "like" something a company is selling it goes on a watch list. When it is actually selling the product and sales are growing then I'll buy it. Until then the only love I'm going to show it is by putting it on my watch list.
    7 Mar 2013, 07:39 PM Reply Like
  • BW
    I made the same mistake with PEFF Power Efficiency Corp. Which had a big move today, almost back up to a penny. I got out a few years ago.
    It is a good idea, (Saves energy) seems to be a good product, (UL listed) it just never translated into sales.
    7 Mar 2013, 08:18 PM Reply Like
  • That makes me think back to the time when I had decided to invest in AXPW. Now fast forward 2 years - of unabated, unashamed selling- and with very little sales to show for, and I am caught in a "moment of doubt" phase. Though I can see no major red flag against Axion, it still puzzles me how slow the ramp up of sales can be for a new battery product
    8 Mar 2013, 05:49 AM Reply Like
  • FWIW -


    The NTSB says it will release its interim report Thursday morning at at 11 a.m. EST, on its battery investigation into Boeing's (BA) 787 Dreamliner. The report will cover factual details and not include any specific analysis about what prompted the incident. Separately, a test flight could potentially be approved by the FAA within days, which would allow BA to test its battery fix. [View news story]


    I hope the NTSD and Boeing reincorporate the nail-thru-the-cell test to create a short which will be conducted with all 8 cells connected in series, and fully charged, to assess the damage to the whole battery due to an internal short with 100% of the batteries stored energy dissipated thru that one cells short.


    And I'd like to see Boeing consider a combined (in circuit) dual battery system of Pb-Acid for infrequent (daily) deep discharges with little self-discharge for APU starting combined with Axion's PbC (lead carbon) for high frequency, shallow discharges, with high rate recharge capability and long cycle life for the in-flight use; both of these batteries do not BURN like Lithiums.


    So, the Pb batteries may weigh a little more, and be a little larger, but that's a small penalty for guaranteeing NO Fires, smoke, etc. and not having to drive a plane around the air waves with a battery system designed to confine a fire: duh!.: when you can fly with no threat.


    Besides, the Pb-Acids have been certified in the past.


    A passenger seat or two weight penalty for no-fire, more safe, electrochemical systems may be a very small penalty, if at all.


    Peace, folks.
    7 Mar 2013, 05:03 PM Reply Like
  • Naked JB,
    Didn't JP state that aeronautical batteries are Ni-cd. Proven and safe and accepted by the inspectors worldwide?
    7 Mar 2013, 05:20 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist you are correct. I expect that BA will go with a solution like that.


    I've often compared the fleet testing and NSC yard switcher program to be similar to the program where airlines tested the winglets on planes in the early 2000s as I am very successful with that and can find parallels.


    For years smaller planes had winglets but they added weight, fuel was cheap and range really wasn't an issue as engines were oversized (nobody was flying 737 and 757 over the Atlantic). In 1991 Aviation Partners was formed and went after the private market after years of testing, proving themselves over and over again, FAA certification they started making some sales in the 1997-99 range. Boeing got interested in 1999 as customers wanted them installed as part of deliveries in their factory and provided this struggling company with cash in exchange for 25% of the company (strategic partner). At that point they went out and hit up American, Southwest, Continental, United about putting winglets on their planes. They were pushing 5% fuel savings at cruise and had testing to prove it. With Boeings help these guy got in the door but were dismissed. Finally in 2001 Southwest purchased a kit, had it installed and nobody noticed or cared. They flew with it for 3 months and quietly ordered a few more. In mid 2002 I was working for one of the named airlines above and got the winglet packet on my desk from an engineer who wanted me to put together a potential NPV. I doubled installation costs, tripled time to install, used 50% of the savings at cruise and instituted a penalty to get up to cruise. The payoff was between 3-5 years at current fuel prices. We required a 2 year payback on all investments so it should have died there but my boss bought one, mostly on the reputation of Southwest buying more. We put one one and a second a month later with the FAA watching. We required weekly inspections of the wing and reports to the FAA. After 3 months we estimated fuel savings to be about 3% and the payback to be 2-3 years. Then it was a rush to buy more along with Southwest. Other carriers and Boeing ignored us. Two years later we had over 100 installed, we were working on winglets on larger aircraft which would provide even more fuel savings, the increased range opened up new markets (Newark NJ to Berlin/Hamburg on a 737). When I left the industry in 2007 the other carriers were onboard, the price was 40% higher and they have been increasing their cost of the winglet by 10% per annum.


    Just like AXPW these guys struggled for years with a winner of a product, the strategic partner got them in the door and even then it took a while. Now they are doing awesome. Everytime I get frustrated with where we are at I think of these guys. I hope and expect our story turns out the same.
    7 Mar 2013, 07:02 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist NJB


    If he didn't they have been used since they replaced LA in large aircraft many years ago.
    They had trouble with nickel cadmium (Ni-Cd), at first, too.


    Battery technology and construction



    <Two chemistries are generally used for today’s aircraft batteries — nickel cadmium (Ni-Cd) and lead-acid. Lead-acid batteries are either vented or valve regulated (VRLA), and are typically used in light and general aviation aircraft. At the other end of the spectrum, vented Ni-Cd batteries dominate larger aircraft and helicopter applications while both VRLA and Ni-Cd types are found in smaller aircraft such as business jets. >
    7 Mar 2013, 07:07 PM Reply Like
  • Mrh> Good comment. That's exactly the strategy AXPW needs. They just don't have enough muscle right now.
    7 Mar 2013, 07:25 PM Reply Like
  • Great story mrh... just to add a little cliff claven tidbit, for those who might not be familiar, (and fix me up if I goon it) a not-insignificant percentage of a wing's drag occurs at the tips in the form of wingtip vortices where the air below curls up and tries to join the air above the wing... most pronounced at heavy loads, higher angles of attack, and lower speeds-- as in takeoff and landing.. but during cruise also... anyway, those little winglets help prevent those turbulent wingtip vortices from forming thus cutting drag, increasing lift, and that's why the fuel savings. The point is well taken though--even smart ideas that make all kinds of good sense can sometimes take a "ridiculously" long time to see widespread implementation. Also well to note though, how it's hard to kill a truly good idea, for good.
    7 Mar 2013, 07:28 PM Reply Like
  • futurist - best I know from long ago the NiCd's were the battery of choice as "starting" batteries (replacing Pb-acids in some applications) for whatever reasons the Pb-acids could not perform the duty cycle or desire for higher energy density (volume and mass) advantages for less weight etc..


    Some of the folks herein can comment on NiCd characteristics that may be good for deep discharge, and slow to moderate recharges, not ignoring issues with memory.


    However, I'm not sure NiCd's like shallow, frequent, partial discharges and high rate currents and short recharge times.
    Such duty cycles may be what required the switch to Lithiums as choice for the controls battery (and at the same time replace the NiCd's starting battery). The new duty cycle may have been experienced/required when Boeing replaced hydraulic/pneumatic controls of flaps etc., with electric motors (best I know). In so doing, whatever stored energy devices used onboard non-787 models may not have cut the mustard for the newly designed 787. Pure speculation on my part.
    7 Mar 2013, 08:12 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty - and how much of Winglets does Aviation Partners still own today?
    7 Mar 2013, 08:21 PM Reply Like
  • Jay bird- not sure what you are asking. A google search says that they still own 55% and Boeing owns 45%. I may have had the original %s wrong or there was some other transactions later.


    Of the winglet add-on market I'd guess they have close to a 100% market share. They've moved from 737 to 757, 767 and have a new design that is even more efficient. As I'm not in the industry I'm not sure if they are involved in the airbus marketplace.
    7 Mar 2013, 10:25 PM Reply Like
  • 48: I *think* you're correct. Vortices off the wing tips are a hazard to small aircraft that wander into the "wake" of "heavies" for ... was it 1/2 mile or more behind and slightly below the "heavy's" flight path?


    8 Mar 2013, 05:37 AM Reply Like
  • mrholty - as a former airline pilot and with your stated experience regarding Winglets, what hope do you hold for acceptance of e-taxi and WheelTug by the airlines?


    What's your assessment of WheelTug?
    8 Mar 2013, 01:07 PM Reply Like
  • 1. Heavy behind heavy- 4 miles.
    2. Large/heavy behind B757- 4 miles.
    3. Small behind B757- 5 miles.
    4. Small/large behind heavy - 5 miles.


    In lieu of Radar, 2 minutes is used.
    8 Mar 2013, 02:28 PM Reply Like
  • O.R: Aha! Those are some long-lasting vortices.


    8 Mar 2013, 02:32 PM Reply Like
  • Not a former pilot. Occam's the pilot on here. I worked in finance for 2 different major airlines for over 10 years in a varity of roles.


    Personally, I'm not a big fan of e-Taxi and Wheel Tug. Where is the savings?
    On Departure:
    You save in capital cost from having a pushback. (Pushback tugs are $300-500k) but last for 10-15 years. Most airlines push back using one guy on the guy and one wing-walker. In Europe/Asia they still use two wing walkers. Those staff are already at the plane as they loaded the bags. If the airplane is using the wheeltug to push back they will still have to have a wingwalker(s) so there is no staff savings. The airplane will still need to fire up the engines before they get on the taxi way but in theory they will start them early incase there is problems. The normal APU on the aircraft does a poor job of providing cabin ammenities so I see them firing up an engine.


    It sounds cool but I don't see a large adoption in the current US Commerical marketplace. I could see value from a military perspective but I don't have enought insight into that marketplace fully. However, I was also wrong with the automated arrivals being installed through Europe that self directs the pilot to arrive at a gate. It hasn't caught on in the US but European airports see it as valuable, this may be similar.
    8 Mar 2013, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • With respect to e-taxi / wheel tug: we began single engine taxi as S.O.P when crude oil hit $50.00 per gallon, and we obviously are still doing it. It's pretty simple... we commence push back, start one turbine and then begin our taxi *toward* the active runway on one engine. It's the Captain's call for when we "turn #2". If we're at JFK, it could be 20 minutes depending on the line up to the active runway(s).


    I like the idea of e-taxi, just don't see it happening any time soon.


    WRT wing walkers... many places (like Seattle) do not even use wing walkers (or marshallers) any more... just an electronic guidance monitor. I personally prefer the computer monitor over a person(s) anyway.


    APU: now this one's interesting.... we used to run the APU early and often... not any more. I spare you the S.O.P.'s on this one.... they're long!


    The biggest surprise (all because of fuel prices) was making Flaps 3 the standard landing configuration vice Flaps Full. Unless going in to Orange County (John Wayne) or Burbank, etc. we are "encouraged" to use *less* flaps in an effort to save fuel. I won't get into it but I have mixed viewpoints on this.


    There are many other procedural changes but those are a couple big ones.
    8 Mar 2013, 06:10 PM Reply Like
  • HTL Separation minimums of 3,4,and 5 miles depending on the aircraft. 1000 ft vertically
    8 Mar 2013, 07:47 PM Reply Like
  • well heck, if you guys were really serious about saving gas on landing, just say no to flaps, go single engine at FAP, and hold the gear at least until you cross the numbers... ;)
    8 Mar 2013, 08:02 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty - sorry about the former pilot claim misunderstanding.


    From a capital or payback position with you being a finance guy, then it should get your attention that WheelTug is going to be given to the airlines at no capital outlay and the airline pays nothing until installed and saving the airline money the first month; then the savings are split between the airline and WheelTug.


    You must also be aware of the cost of FOD to the airline and the toll it takes on blades, if not an engine or fuselage damage due to a tug gone wild. Plus the cool engines upon arrival at the gate lead to safer and shorter turnarounds, no noise, etc. etc.. In other words WheelTug is about more than just saving fuel during taxi. That's how they get to $500,000+ savings per year per aircraft. You may want to look at the WheelTugs website to see how the various airlines bottom lines are changed..
    8 Mar 2013, 08:17 PM Reply Like
  • Occam - so you are the pilot. I'm pleased you like the idea of e-taxi. Re. the WheelTug and APU at 4 lb/hr v/s a single engine at 22 lb/hr puts the aircraft at the gate with cooler engines and the ability to turn 90 degrees and unload and load from both front and back of the plane for faster turnarounds. Then do another 90 and drive away with no jet blast. Good idea? How about being first or second, etc., in line at the runway early in the morning waiting for the noise restriction rule to be lifted. And on, and on..... I hope e-taxi happens soon, but as you say "anytime soon" could be longer than what I hope for.
    8 Mar 2013, 08:32 PM Reply Like
  • 481086: Don't give 'em any ideas!
    8 Mar 2013, 11:58 PM Reply Like
  • NJB: Just imagine putting it on the A380...
    9 Mar 2013, 12:07 AM Reply Like
  • I'm sure they're working on it already... just wait.... next you know feeder routes are gonna take ya right into highkey for full-stop deadstick arrivals. Thems will be good times. ;)
    9 Mar 2013, 12:21 AM Reply Like
  • Occam - yes, imagine.


    A320's do more frequent landing and taxiing, not?
    9 Mar 2013, 01:46 AM Reply Like
  • It seems that A320s are getting some traction.


    March 04, 2013 04:00 ET
    Livingston Airline Purchases WheelTug Delivery Slots


    GIBRALTAR--(Marketwire - Mar 4, 2013) - Livingston Compagnia Aerea, an Italian privately-owned airline, and WheelTug plc, announced today the execution of a Slot Purchase Agreement under which the airline, subject to all regulatory approvals, has the right to lease WheelTug® Aircraft Drive Systems for installation on its fleet of Airbus A320 aircraft. With this agreement, nearly three hundred WheelTug delivery slots have been reserved by airlines.



    They are reportedly approaching 300 orders.
    9 Mar 2013, 12:45 PM Reply Like
  • not being sarcastic....but what is the significance of Wheel Tug?


    Are we supplying batteries? is this a company you guys are investing in?


    I like the use of it, makes perfect sense.....I am just curious and don't want to miss something, or a good investment.
    oh...if it's public ttraded, give me the symbols
    9 Mar 2013, 01:04 PM Reply Like
  • LT - just a little chatter due to mrhotly's good report on the winglets business comparison to Axion.


    WheelTug is just another electric drive hybrid using some very powerful and efficient motors in an application no other electric motors can do as effectively. It does happen to be "green". It also happens to be very cost effective with few negatives. The stock is available as a private purchase. Maybe one of youse guys should get interested and start an "WheelTugonistic" blog site.
    9 Mar 2013, 01:28 PM Reply Like
  • private purchase as in huge blocks or just contact the company?
    9 Mar 2013, 01:53 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    it's OT.


    The head company is Borealis ($BOREF)
    Thinly traded 1,000 a day average and has a complicated structure.
    Read the profile at yahoo
    This is the website
    They have some cool ideas but only WheelTug looks close commercialization IMO
    WheelTug site


    On the Yahoo MB Pull up all posts (About 20)
    There are a few old posts that do a, not very good job, of getting you started on issues, but at least let you know what they are.


    I own some Borealis, it's too iffy for me to recommend.
    That said, they do seem to be getting close on the WheelTug part.


    This guy is an MBA and has been invested in Borealis for about a decade. Google
    " Andrew Tobias WheelTug "
    For a list of his blog snippets. If interested he has a somewhat searchable archive of Blog posts..
    This one gets a bit into the structure
    9 Mar 2013, 02:07 PM Reply Like
  • thanks froggey
    9 Mar 2013, 06:25 PM Reply Like
  • LT - private purchase. There is/was a minimum. Huge is relative. If you wish, provide me your outside-SA contact info and I'll discuss it with you and then help you get right to the source if you so desire.
    10 Mar 2013, 01:59 AM Reply Like
  • >Time Enright and/or Anyone ... I just read another article on allowing "HEAVY" trucks ... ones that weigh in at 97,000 lbs. Now I'm not in favor of this for the simple reason America (Texas is insanely against spending state money on roads) thinks we're broke and can't spend money on things like roads & bridges and the roads are falling apart. Existing new and for sure any bridge over 10 years old weren't designed for this abuse.



    The thing I was wondering is;
    How quickly might this new weight become common?
    Can existing trucks do this without over stressing the equipment or will a rebuild cycle be needed?
    What might be the implications for ePower?
    What might this mean to our hopes for rail?
    7 Mar 2013, 06:27 PM Reply Like
  • DR
    Number of trailers is on a state to state basis. Overages on weight is as well.
    The weight will make the most difference going up and down mountains. Which is not the forte of ePower anyway.
    In cities Stop and Go up to 45mph at present ePower does not use the batteries up to 35mph. It actually could make Axion/ePower look better in the city. By using the battery more often.
    They are planning to spend 2 years tweaking and something I read said there would be people who would forgo the smallest most efficient engine for more power.
    I don't think ePower will be blindsided by this and it will be a slow multiyear if not a decade or longer transition. If at all
    7 Mar 2013, 08:23 PM Reply Like
  • >DRich, its all about axle weight ratings, the spread between axles and the bridge laws. If 97k becomes the new normal than it will most likely be route based (Interstates first then state highways).


    There are some states (don't recall and am away from my stuff) that will allow you to haul this much now and most will allow you to permit 97k as long as the load cannot be reduced.


    Spread axles are good for 40k, standard tandems are 34k and steers are good for 12k (my steers were good for 14.5k). So, with standard tandums on the trailer, standard drives and steers you end up at 80k (34+34+12). You can get to 86k (40+34+12) by spreading the trailer axles (hard on tires) but thats about as far as it goes until you bring in tag axles. Tag axles drop and raise and are used to spread the weight in order to haul more weight. It can be done.


    As far as the engines go it will depend on the route traveled. Most engines are configurable from 450-550 hp with the computer alone. If you run mostly to the east of the rockies then you will do okay although you might get better fuel economy with a bigger engine. If you occasionally pull the hills you will probably do okay just slower. If you pull hills a lot, get a bigger engine but the rest of your gear should be okay (although a higher torque rating on clutch and trans would be ideal). It can be done.


    Remember, ePower is "sized" for fairly flat terrain because of the first customer and his routes and weight. To pull the added weight you just put in parts with higher ratings. I asked Andy about pulling hills and this was basically his reply - makes sense.


    Wish I was more up on the goal behind the weight. I see it as four trucks on the road instead of five. I am thinking the freight is probably regional (stuff that may not make sense for rail anyway). Sorry, not much help on this one...


    PS Wish I had a dollar for every time I typed time instead of tim ; )
    8 Mar 2013, 12:15 AM Reply Like
  • Looking for new places to lose money in the market I was reading the CC for a large diversified electronics manufacturer with $752M in automotive business. There was a question about the growth areas expected in their automotive segment and the answer was:
    "Trends that we see basically increasing in adoption over the next year or so are the start-stop alternator approach, significant savings on fuel economy." The other areas were LED lighting both inside and outside the vehicle and infotainment systems.
    7 Mar 2013, 06:33 PM Reply Like
  • This may tell what the GM CEO was talking about, with 200 mile range....Mercedes article worth reading:

    7 Mar 2013, 07:13 PM Reply Like
  • "Batteries delivering this much power need an equally impressive cooling system. In the SLS Electric, two low-temperature cooling circuits ensure the conditions remain optimum. With a three-phase, 22-kilowatt charging system, the 60 kWh batteries can be charged in just three hours. With a normal plug, it takes around 20 hours. A full charge can take the SLS 155 miles."


    I am getting tired of reading about $155,000 cars that depend on complexity of this order to perform.


    And of course near the end of the article this happened:


    "Amazing creations, such as the SLS Electric, are not immune to problems, however. As I exited a hairpin bend, the whistle from the motor stopped. I ground to a halt, with warning lights illuminating the dash in illegible German. From what little I could translate, it appeared to be a fault with the batteries.


    "Despite the engineer’s obvious embarrassment, I showcased a grin from ear to ear. After all, who drifts an EV? But, with the SLS Electric going on sale in June, problems like this are worrying."


    My own personal opinion of EV's: too expensive, too complex, not yet ready for prime time (if they ever will be).


    Edit: Little suburban EV runabouts maybe; and light-weight personal transpo devices for city dwellers if practical overnight parking/charging infrastructure is developed.
    7 Mar 2013, 08:11 PM Reply Like
  • billa...That's exactly where it starts, my point is that there is a working model now. It needs tweaking and prices to come down. But the tech is here now, however complex it may be.
    Not much different than the first computers that took an entire room and had to have aluminum floors with vents to circulate the AC.


    Your right in that I imagine GM is planning a small car for just the apps you mentioned.


    For AXPW, the door is open for now, but could be closing a little every year...we need something big, Fast. As in this year. NS could do that, and fleet testing could do it, ePower is moving faster than about anything else. They have their ducks lined up, just need to execute.
    I think bang's post back to HTL above says alot about what the pps is for now, and maybe the lurkers who could push it higher too.
    7 Mar 2013, 08:48 PM Reply Like
  • I don't share the sense of urgency you seem to feel, LT.


    All a matter of crystal ball gazing and opinion, of which I do not begrudge you yours.


    Mine is that a magic bullet battery to run automobiles as we know them without ICE is not going to happen in the foreseeable future. Runabout EV's seem not to be giving OEMs nocturnal emissions, as their handouts all speak glowingly about swinging for the fences.


    PbC's problem is not that time is running out. It is that AGM has captured the SS market, which means education, testing, and a certain amount of retooling will be required to set that straight.


    We've worked our way fairly impressively down that path to this point. I strongly doubt anybody's EV car is going to disrupt the disruption we are working on.
    8 Mar 2013, 12:04 AM Reply Like
  • Agree with you billa. Even if a magic battery made by aliens splashed down tomorrow, there's no way electric cars are going to scale in any kind of time frame that's going to be a threat to ICE vehicles and the SS/MicroHybrid wave that is coming this decade. All the necessary pieces, the demand, the popular acceptance, the supply chains, the charging infrastructure... none of it's there in any kind of quantity that could even begin to displace conventional vehicles... a coupla hundred thousand EV's on the road in five years? Yeah, maybe, that's probably baked in, and maybe in china the KNDI/swap thing might really take off, but we're still talking on the order of ten million vehicles a year sold in the US alone... and a lot of those are pickup trucks, utility vehicles, and SUVs... I can see those going in significant numbers to various flavors of SS/hybrid, because as we've noted before, the fuel savings potential is great in this segment, but EV in any big way? No way. Try towing a boat, housetrailer, horsetrailer, or heavy load of building materials with an EV. Not gonna happen. ICE vehicles are going to be a fact of life for years to come. But they *are* going to get a lot better and more efficient, through various strategies of hybridization and electrification. PbC has plenty of window to be a big part of that.
    8 Mar 2013, 02:08 AM Reply Like
  • I have a daily commute to work of 5,000 miles and achieve 40mpg in my Renault (125 gallons per day). With gasoline at $4.00 per gallon, I will be making $500 dollars a day by purchasing this Mercedes and giving up the Renault. I will save enough money in 1,000 days to purchase another $500,000 Mercedes and sell the 1st to a museum for more than I paid for it as it will be a classic. Mercedes also warrants the battery pack for three years and will also have zero expense driving as electricity is free. Why have an ICE when you can make money driving an EV?
    8 Mar 2013, 02:42 AM Reply Like
  • LT: "Not much different than the first computers that took an entire room and had to have aluminum floors with vents to circulate the AC".


    Unbridled optimism might be unwarranted. JP has mentioned many time the differences between chemistry and physics. I watched the benefits of physics in the computing environment for a long time and am still flabbergasted at what is still happening and a very rapid pace.


    I think looking for anything with chemistry involved to behave like that is overly optimistic. I know you didn't mean exactly like that, but I'm guessing a tortoise vs. a hare analogy would be somewhat appropriate when comparing rate of improvement.


    And the final outcome may not be comparable at all to the one in the fable.


    8 Mar 2013, 05:50 AM Reply Like
  • Here's a link to Teschler's comments about Super Hybrid route to 50 miles per gal.



    I had responded to someone's comment that had been deleted. This has been talked about before. It uses batteries by Exide.

    8 Mar 2013, 06:12 AM Reply Like
  • JVEAL,
    "Advanced lead batteries in the car.Also, the Passat carries special PbC lead-carbon batteries, which avoid the need for higher cost battery technologies or super-capacitors, and higher gear ratios to reduce engine speed. ."


    I know that the LC supercharger originally asked for the Axion PbC but was unable to garner the support needed from Axion. I suspect the use of PbC here is simply a poor choice of trademark infringement. Were they not trying to use carbon paste AGMs or some other poorer substitute?
    8 Mar 2013, 06:22 AM Reply Like
  • There is no doubt there will be many more s/s vehicles sooner than the Mercedes....i posted the Mercedes article to show that the long range tech is here now....IMO, they didn't make a full production car without planning to expand and further the tech down the road.


    The only thing I see that is a real threat to PbC near term was the JCI 2 battery system they built out on the BMW...the question is cost. I think they told the OEM's that if they want an ideal solution it is $1200....OEM's wanted $300 +/- ? so where does it fall in the middle? and just how bad is "lead" really hated?


    I see 3 issues....Price, Production capability, and material composite


    Who knows where it falls, but it won't be AGM.
    8 Mar 2013, 05:33 AM Reply Like
  • Oh dear!!!!


    MXWL is caught probably cooking the books and has to restate prior financial statements. Stock down 17% in pre-market today...
    8 Mar 2013, 08:08 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks Amouna. I'm glad I've already lightened my position considerably.
    8 Mar 2013, 09:04 AM Reply Like
  • My pleasure. I never got to buy MXWL in the first place, and this news about their financial statements makes me very weary of the company going forward.


    I may be overreacting of course...
    8 Mar 2013, 09:07 AM Reply Like
  • 03/07/2013: EOD stuff partially copied instablog (up in ~1 hour).
    # Trds: 49, MinTrSz: 150, MaxTrSz: 24725, Vol 183160, AvTrSz: 3738
    Min. Pr: 0.3010, Max Pr: 0.3250, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.3126
    # Buys, Shares: 19 50605, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.3143
    # Sells, Shares: 30 132555, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.3119
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 1:2.62 (27.6% “buys”), DlyShts 29125 (15.90%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 21.97%


    My summary is likely more weakness with a possible reversal of trend in store in a few days. Nothing indicating a reversal is more likely than continued weakness for now.


    It's too early to say if much will come of it, but the daily short sales moved above all the descending averages, as well as its calculated long-term trend line. It's not a large move and not out of the range of normal choppy behavior we've been seeing.


    As mentioned in a comment in the APC, the ATDF market-maker was off the field today. The result was that for a large part of the day it looked like price might hold up well – we had initially much less “jumping to the front of the line” on the ask to push price down. From the opening salvo of 49.5K shares with a VWAP of $0.3114 we saw a slow low-volume crawl to as high as $0.3250 at 14:00. From there it began to weaken, again with low-volume and infrequent trades, with zero trades between 14:44 and 15:23. At that point, I guess NITE decided to stand in for ATDF and began pushing the ask downward. Trades moved from $0.32 down to as low as $0.3010, and closed at $0.3050, on volume of 88.43K with a VWAP of $0.3098. Here's a breakdown of some of the action.


    $0.3010-$0.3050 019930 shares, 10.88% of volume, VWAP $0.3021
    $0.3100-$0.3140 103700 shares, 56.62% of volume, VWAP $0.3112
    $0.3150-$0.3181 041200 shares, 22.49% of volume, VWAP $0.3166
    $0.3200-$0.3250 018330 shares, 10.01% of volume, VWAP $0.3226


    On the traditional TA front, all the oscillators I watch weakened some more, with all but the MFI (~61.9) and momentum (~1.05) below neutral and the stochastic %K (~46.58) looking like it wants to go oversold shortly. Price is pretty much in the middle, $0.3067, of my experimental 13-period Bollinger bands - $0.3355 and $0.2779. Since we've moved the price range lower, the 50-day SMA, $0.3201, will start slowing its ascent. If we move lower a penny or so, it will go flat but the spread between it and the 200-day SMA, $0.3113, will still continue to widen as the 200-day continues to drop.


    With volume slightly higher, but not dramatically so, further weakness in price should be expected. But there's a couple of things that suggest a positive move might appear.


    First, our price is at a known prior support point and it would not be an aberration to see support, seen at that level today, result in a bounce up. With the relatively small percentage of trades in the lower-$0.30xx area today, the sellers at this level might be exhausted. The percentages above suggest that most got out above the low $0.30 level. Further, there may be many who, as I did, see a $0.30xx range as a very reasonable risk/reward point, especially if they believe some news is likely over the next couple of months. We'll just have to see how this near-term plays out.


    Recall that I was looking for a new potential trend and added a rising line from the low of $0.2018 on 11/12/12 which touches the lows in the 2/22-2/27/13 period. The extension of this line is barely below the low today of $0.301. Since we came off a high of $0.35, a known resistance point, on 3/5, there's a possibility we might reverse trend (it's only a three-day trend though), either Friday or in the next couple days. We've retraced ~80% of the rise from $0.288 to $0.35. If this is just an overshoot of the Fibonacci 61.8% price point and that potential new rising support is in play, we could see a move back towards $0.33, another known resistance. There's nothing suggesting it's likely yet, but it is a possibility here. If it does come, I really wouldn't be looking for it on a Friday, which is often a low-volume day. Given all this, I don't expect any price strength with volume today. Might have one or the other though.


    My experimental charts stuff is not yet showing suggestions of strength either. Average trade size remains in the lower area of what I think is retail, although it is slowly improving. The buy:sell ratio is still quite weak, volume is still low with all the averages dropping and my original inflection point calculations are showing increased weakness, although they aren't well-formed. My newer version is well-formed and, in retrospect, can be considered to have thrown a signal on 3/5. But since I've not exhaustively examined it over the year yet, I didn't believe in it enough to holler, other than to say it was also suggesting weakness.


    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.


    8 Mar 2013, 08:42 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks for this. I think it will take a positive PR for us to break above 0.35 on strong volume...
    8 Mar 2013, 08:53 AM Reply Like
  • ATDF is back today, so expect the normal attempt for them to be best on both sides - should provide at least short-term narrowing spread.


    8 Mar 2013, 09:41 AM Reply Like
  • HTL, Today is odd in that we don't have the 2500 share blocks fighting on both sides. Long weekend?


    And what would have happened if ATDF stayed on the side lines? Oh well, Sigh...............
    8 Mar 2013, 11:05 AM Reply Like
  • Iindelco: Can't say - that's common though. I notice ATDF hasn't been as aggressive on the two sides of the market in adjusting their offered trades either. First real move on the bid was done to $0.31 after the ask was moved to $0.324 to be between the ask of $0.3198 by NITE and the $0.3285 ask of TEJS.


    This is quite different from what we normally get from ATDF, along with them being AWOL yesterday.


    8 Mar 2013, 02:36 PM Reply Like
  • Interesting story on Hydraulic fracking in Illinois.

    8 Mar 2013, 10:23 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech: I amazed - folks sitting down together and ironing out palatable rules that likely accomplish what's need for environmental, water and consumer protection and the industry is rare.


    Thanks for posting it.


    8 Mar 2013, 11:09 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks LabTech, As a New Yaker I can tell you we will probably not learn from this example of the benefits of give and take negotiation.
    8 Mar 2013, 11:23 AM Reply Like
  • IINDelco and HTL,


    Yes, I grew up in the Midwest. We like to think we are "reasonable" people for the most part. My wife is still amazed that Iowa was one of the first states to allow same sex marriage because, as they said, it just seemed like the fair thing to do.
    Plus, this time of the year, it's too cold for a bunch of movie stars to show up, stand outside protesting, and give their opinion of what is "best" for the people there.
    8 Mar 2013, 01:46 PM Reply Like
  • You heard it here first. It wasn't from me nor was it today.


    Battery costs unlikely to fall without new breakthrough


    "Big investments in lithium-ion battery manufacturing plants won't significantly reduce the cost of making batteries, a revised outlook that cautions that sustainable growth in electric vehicle sales will happen later rather than sooner."

    8 Mar 2013, 11:13 AM Reply Like
  • Whoda thunk?
    8 Mar 2013, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • John, You're using that expression quite a bit as reality sets into the industry/media about the challenges in energy storage and vehicle electrification.
    8 Mar 2013, 01:16 PM Reply Like
  • Another article on the GE battery.


    New battery for rail, marine, mining, communications and energy sectors

    8 Mar 2013, 11:54 AM Reply Like
  • Despite claims to the contrary, the reality is that GE's NaMCl battery was originally developed by Daimler and sold to Switzerland's MES-DEA years ago. The new GE plant in Schenectady is basically a clone of the plant I visited in Stabio, Switzerland a couple years ago.


    The Zebra is a very good battery, but GE brought nothing to the table beyond marketing muscle.
    8 Mar 2013, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • "The downside of the GE development is that the batteries are more expensive per kilowatt hour. However, they would have a longer life. Where lead-acid batteries are regularly discharged, they have a life of only about six months. By contrast, the GE development could last 10 years or more of daily charging. In fact, the design allows for deep discharges of at least 3500 times."


    So, if a lead-acid type battery could match those charge/discharge and service life performances, then it would win out on a cost basis.


    I think we could end up being quite competitive with that particular solution.
    8 Mar 2013, 01:31 PM Reply Like
  • John,
    True, but what Axion wouldn't give for some of that marketing muscle right now!
    Come on strategic investor!
    8 Mar 2013, 01:50 PM Reply Like
  • I wonder how GE defines "deep" discharges.


    I remember Axion saying that the reason they don't say the PbC is good for a number of 100% DODs beyond 2,500 is because no one asked for it, so they stopped the tests at 2,500.


    I found it fascinating when we had some discussion about what you might call "rejuvinating" the PbC, by running a certain procedure (sustaining a charge for x # of hrs while its fully charged, or something like that I think), whereby you get another bunch of years out of it, with a performance loss (however that's defined) of something like only 20%. Seemed like a game-changer attribute to me, at least for applications like NS' where professionals may have the expertise, time and desire to do the procedure, and do it correctly (if it can't reliably be done automatically), but the discussion has faded away. The PbC already has a long life in punishing environments--seemed to me that adding even more years just increases the potential mkts a whole lot more on top of a whole lot already. Widens the top and the bottom of the mkt funnel simultaneously.
    8 Mar 2013, 05:34 PM Reply Like
  • MrI: This it? Bottom paragraph. Should be some discussion around it in that concentrator.



    8 Mar 2013, 05:43 PM Reply Like
  • HTL, yes, that was it. I was too lazy to look for it and for its cousins--e.g., the mention of how much capacity is lost, and the U of PA study about rejuvinating a lead battery that we thought was probably the PbC, IIRC.


    Anyway, as I think the attribute seems to be extremely important, but underappreciated, here is Dr. Ed Buiel's comment again:


    "PbC batteries also benefit from being equalized. We found that after 100,000 miles if you could just charge the batteries for 36-48h continuously, then most of the capacity could be recovered as you break up sulfate on the positive electrode. Automobile companies wouldn't consider this but I bet the ePower truck could have such an option to just plug it in for a few days when the truck was down in maintenance or just off the road (weekend?). This could greatly extend the life."


    Also ties in nicely with the recent discussion of bringing down battery costs by increasing cycle life. Hey, where can I invest in this Axion company?
    8 Mar 2013, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • I see a problem with ACTUALLY using a battery down to zero SOC. When cells are stacked in series, it is near impossible to discharge all of the cells to zero SOC without "reverse charging" one or more cells in the process. Most cell chemistries are very unhappy doing that.


    So testing ONE cell to zero SOC is a reasonable thing to do for studying it. Actually discharging a STRING of cells (a battery of cells) 2500 times doesn't seem like a good idea for any reason.


    An exception; adding a fancy "cell by cell" electronic battery management system that can prevent reversing the cell voltage.


    Discharging a nicely balanced string of PbC cells to 5% SOC might be reasonable :>)
    9 Mar 2013, 01:46 AM Reply Like
  • SHB: I'll add one consideration that I don't know the effects of. The self-balancing trait, in intra-cell, intra-battery and intra-string? With the capacitive side of things that that concave(?) curve we saw, maybe the PbC does 0% SOC much better w/o issues? And if Axion tsted a battery or string to 0% 2.5K times, that seems to suggest ...


    9 Mar 2013, 07:27 AM Reply Like
  • Re: discharging a PbC to 0 SOC.


    HTL: I simply don't know enough to comment any further. I still haven't seen a real model of the PbC cell. BUT, the cell capacity and charge state would need to be near identical, cell-to-cell, to allow discharge to zero without the issue I discussed.
    9 Mar 2013, 03:02 PM Reply Like
  • DynaPower Launches New Air-Cooled Energy Storage Inverter



    "option of single DC or dual DC connections that are independently controlled, including configurable software for both energy storage or PV system applications ...


    enables our customers to integrate solar power and energy storage through a common inverter allowing them to reduce system cost and integration complexity"


    UL certification pending according to this spec on their site:


    "monitors the grid stability and within 16 ms of detecting a grid disturbance will disconnect from the grid connection and transition to stand alone mode on the load connection. The transition is seamless to the critical loads."
    8 Mar 2013, 12:16 PM Reply Like
  • Remind me, is DynaPower involved with the HUB?
    8 Mar 2013, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane, Not positive but I think they were only involved with the inverter in the Axion Power Cube. That's the large behind the meter demo they have behind of their plant.


    The battery shown on this video about Lab View concerning a DynaPower case study should look familiar.



    Edit: Oops at the 3:50 minute mark. ;)
    8 Mar 2013, 01:28 PM Reply Like
  • Good catch ii!!!
    8 Mar 2013, 01:33 PM Reply Like
  • Kent, The video has been posted here in the past. Not sure who posted it but I recalled the post because I'm familiar with LabVIEW.
    8 Mar 2013, 02:19 PM Reply Like
  • I believe Indy Power Systems is "involved with" the Hub given they both use the phrase "Energy Router" in their PR.



    Sadly, Indy, which is private, remains pretty incognito on the World Wide Web :-( Given the lack of obvious Hub sales, I suppose that may continue ...
    8 Mar 2013, 04:05 PM Reply Like
  • Walgreens Sets Goal to Build Nation’s First Net Zero Energy Retail Store in Evanston, Ill.



    Wow. Wouldn't you like to be a supplier to a chain this big? And that's a wide ranging supplier list for this project!
    8 Mar 2013, 12:27 PM Reply Like
  • WTB,
    Now all they need is a nice PowerCube or string of HUBs to store the energy from the various power sources and smooth it all out.
    8 Mar 2013, 01:59 PM Reply Like
  • WT that follows on PNC Financial move into this space that you identified as well.
    8 Mar 2013, 02:05 PM Reply Like
  • More:


    "The project reads like a “Green Engineers Go Wild” script with wind turbines, geothermal technology that taps energy sources 550 feet into the earth, LED lighting and ultra-high efficiency refrigeration."
    9 Mar 2013, 01:22 PM Reply Like
  • Analysis: Renewables turn utilities into dinosaurs of the energy world


    The industry faces drastic change as renewable energy turns consumers into producers and hollows out the dominance of utilities.


    With their stocks at decade lows and a millstone of debt around their necks, Europe's utilities have little margin for error. . .


    Ultimately, utilities could become aggregators of electric power, much as Google aggregates content, with the difference that regulators will require that power keeps flowing and the lights stay on. Several countries, including France, Spain and the UK, are preparing legislation to set up capacity mechanisms, under which utilities would be paid for keeping capacity on standby.


    "In a future electricity system, the electricity network company could essentially be an insurance company, providing insurance against not having sunshine when you need power," said International Energy Agency economist Laszlo Varro. . .


    Even renewables fans agree that centralized generation will not disappear, as renewable energy will need the back-up of traditional power plants.


    But the longer renewables are subsidized, said Redgwell, allowing them to obtain critical mass and become cheaper, the greater the possibility that their price will rival retail electricity prices, in a classic threat of substitution.


    "In the long term, competitive, non-subsidized renewables could be a big win for society. And a big loss for utilities."
    8 Mar 2013, 01:05 PM Reply Like
  • CDEL comes in w/a 75K bid of $0.3099 at 13:07. If they are serious, that ought to provide some support. If it's all or none, the market probably will trade around it. Let's see what they do with it.


    8 Mar 2013, 01:29 PM Reply Like
  • OK, 5K traded $0.3099 and no change in *presented* bid volume from CDEL. So either they've more stacked behind it (this is all or none not intended to trade?) or the market traded around it.


    8 Mar 2013, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • Axion Power word of the day: Pandiculate -- the act of yawning and stretching


    If you're truly bored today, like I am, here's an amazing explanation of why we yawn, why yawning is contagious, and how, in the animal kingdom, pack animals like antelope, yawn together as a survival tactic:

    8 Mar 2013, 01:31 PM Reply Like
  • Get back to work on that novel Scribe!!!
    8 Mar 2013, 02:07 PM Reply Like
  • FPA: What?! They're coming out with V 2.0 of scribes?!




    8 Mar 2013, 02:11 PM Reply Like
  • FPA: Actually, yesterday and by mere chance, I established a contact with Penquin Books. Things could get interesting.
    8 Mar 2013, 02:15 PM Reply Like
  • Maya, Thanks for that.


    It's been a long time since I formally studied cause and effect and I guess I had it backwards. I thought my yawning was causing the stock to trade low volumes in an aimless direction.
    8 Mar 2013, 02:42 PM Reply Like
  • Do whales yawn?


    I have wondered about this for a long time, since I once saw a beluga at the Norwalk Aquarium (or maybe Mystic?) come up to the glass and very clearly yawn in my face.


    If they cannot breathe through their mouths, especially while underwater, is it really a yawn? What evolutionary purpose does it serve that it would be preserved in cetaceans?


    It is a question that the internet cannot definitively answer.
    8 Mar 2013, 03:18 PM Reply Like
  • If they have two blowholes do they yawn independently? Or are they synchronized in some fashion?


    Most excellent! ;))

    8 Mar 2013, 03:30 PM Reply Like
  • "why we yawn ... pack animals like antelope, yawn together as a survival tactic:"


    :-) Herd instinct is strong. Monkey see, monkey do.
    8 Mar 2013, 02:14 PM Reply Like
  • OK. With due consideration of the predatory environment we inhabit, and the forces in the battery space that want to eat Axion's lunch, so to speak, all together now ... 5 4 3 2 1 YAWN!


    8 Mar 2013, 02:24 PM Reply Like
  • I guess it all depends who you ask.


    Solar batteries help keep the lights on


    "A single solar battery costs about €800 per kilowatt hour, so an average 6kWh battery costs about €5 000.


    Including installation, tax and components to connect it to the grid, an average household - which consumes 3 500kWh per year - would pay about €10 000 to €20 000 per storage system.


    "We believe that lithium batteries will be available for €400 to €500 per kilowatt hour in a few years, featuring a lifespan of 20 years," said Martin Rothert, product manager at SMA Solar, Germany's largest solar company."

    8 Mar 2013, 03:39 PM Reply Like
  • ""A single solar battery costs about €800 per kilowatt hour, ...."


    €800 per kilowatt hour is roughly equivalent to $1,040 at today's exchange rate. 2 Axion PbC 30HT batteries would deliver kWh and cost ~$930 or >10% less than the solar battery referenced.
    8 Mar 2013, 07:16 PM Reply Like
  • Earlier today this article was posted here. I opened it in a tab and only got to read it just now. (I've been amusing myself by watching the pps on my shares of MNKD skyrocket all day.)



    My takeaway was this, which is pretty much what we have all been saying here for months:


    "Without a technology breakthrough that brings down the cost of electric vehicles, the U.S. may have to settle for reducing, rather than ending, oil consumption."
    8 Mar 2013, 03:43 PM Reply Like
  • Well hallaphreakenlooyah.


    Like the humble neutrino, mighty truthion particles can generally penetrate through miles of rock without loss of potency. The only thing known to stop them dead are certain kinds of skullbone. Every once in a while though, even when faced with the hardest skulls, sometimes one manages to make it through.
    8 Mar 2013, 04:00 PM Reply Like
  • For anyone interested. Don't know if this had been posted.


    Rechargeable Lithium Batteries
    Issue: Global price-fixing conspiracy


    "On November 5, 2012, a California consumer represented by Lieff Cabraser filed on behalf of himself and consumers nationwide a class action against the world's leading manufacturers of lithium ion (Li-Ion) rechargeable batteries."

    8 Mar 2013, 03:45 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks to whomever purchased the last 100 shares at .3198.


    It has been frustrating to watch someone pushing the price down at the end of the last two days.
    8 Mar 2013, 04:04 PM Reply Like
  • ;^)
    8 Mar 2013, 04:12 PM Reply Like
  • JVeal: with Buy:Sell 1:5.39 at EOD, I suspect it's just an MM trying to convince folks to buy next trading day. VW Avg Buy Pr: $0.3123, VW Avg Sell Pr: $0.3086 (which includes the CDEL 75.xK that went at $0.3099), and VW Avg. Tr. Pr: $0.3092.


    8 Mar 2013, 04:17 PM Reply Like
  • guess again
    8 Mar 2013, 04:22 PM Reply Like
  • Tsk, tsk. A fine action that avoided a "Gravestone Doji" candlestick appearing on the charts for the day. Supposedly the traders believe this is a bearish signal but Bulkoski notes "It does, but only 51% of the time. I call that random".


    8 Mar 2013, 05:30 PM Reply Like


    this plug-in craze is really starting to catch fire...
    8 Mar 2013, 04:36 PM Reply Like
  • Odd that the story didn't identify the battery manufacturer.


    I wonder why? Could it be SATAN?
    8 Mar 2013, 05:40 PM Reply Like
  • 48


    Mr. Grembam, who is also associated with CalCars, could not explain the cause of the fire, which had occurred while the vehicle was being charged. “It’s not obvious,” he said. “The car exploded and apparently destroyed all the evidence.” The vehicle was using a $5,000 Brusa charger plugged into a 120-volt outlet and was able to pull only about eight amps, Mr. Grembam said. “That shouldn’t be enough to overheat the battery pack. That deepens the mystery.”


    Not only fire but explosion.



    <McAllister said she tried to extinguish the fire and then called 911, and the dispatcher told her to leave the house immediately. When she got across the street, the garage exploded.


    Neighbors heard the concussion and went out into the street.


    "I heard this massive explosion — boom!"


    said Barry Edghill, who lives across the street. "The flames were shooting out about 20 feet, like a blowtorch was feeding it." >


    Oh dear this is just the kind of article those EV haters will use.


    In fairness it was an aftermarket device. Installed in 2004.
    OTOH it only had "about 50,000 miles on the odometer"


    Good call by 911 to get her out of the house.
    8 Mar 2013, 05:50 PM Reply Like
  • I don't wanna cheerlead someone's tragedy, and I guess my snide comment kinda did that. Truth is, I applaud the pioneers, creative types, redneck engineers etc.. but because batteries are not completely understood, these kinds of things are going to happen, if only here and there, but probably enough to give rise to concern... and the EV & PHEV crowd *is* going to have to deal with it, one way or another, eventually to the better of all...


    I'm glad too that no one was hurt.


    I wonder too, what happens when the insurance industry starts to pay attention...
    8 Mar 2013, 06:21 PM Reply Like
  • An aftermarket conversion to a PHEV: I'm wondering if they informed their insurance company about the conversion and someone will be out $250,000 in damages. There is a law suit in the making here and I'll bet the insurance company doesn't end up paying.


    "Corte Madera firefighters were assisted by Central Marin police and other firefighters from San Rafael, Larkspur, Tiburon, Kentfield and Southern Marin." Quite a large response.
    8 Mar 2013, 09:29 PM Reply Like
  • CalCars "Prius+" prototypes used both NiMH and Li batteries. I wonder which this was?
    8 Mar 2013, 09:45 PM Reply Like
  • Metro, I was thinking of some of the negative possibilities of this as well. Maybe the homeowner doesn't even own the vehicle and it belongs to the organization mentioned. Anyway, As 48 indicated nobody got hurt other than the cat so that makes it far less expensive than it could have been.


    Well except for the possible implications to the industry based on how the press handles it.
    8 Mar 2013, 09:50 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo, The article mentioned NiMH.
    8 Mar 2013, 10:14 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo
    I think Phase 1 and 3


    Started with NiMH added LA in phase one


    using the Brusa charger.


    Phase 3 moved the charger and switched LA to Li Ion battery
    (Valence VU1)
    9 Mar 2013, 12:58 PM Reply Like
  • This car used NiMH. Sorry, no lithium FUD potential here, move along.
    10 Mar 2013, 10:30 AM Reply Like
  • Who need FUD when we have experience with Boeing. The battery chemistries in EVs may be safer, but they're nowhere near risk free. The first baby barbecue will prove that point beyond debate.
    10 Mar 2013, 10:46 AM Reply Like
  • Disgusting how you look forward to such an event. Are you as gleeful about the daily ICE fires which we accept as part of doing business? Unfortunately for you it's going to take a lot more than a single fire, which has never happened, to paint EV's as unsafe as ICE vehicles. The statistics continue to pile up against you.
    10 Mar 2013, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • Lawyers are trained to be perpetually vigilant for things that are likely to go wrong because those are the events that kill businesses. It has nothing to do with personal preferences. It comes with the profession.
    10 Mar 2013, 11:19 AM Reply Like
  • Whatever it takes for you to ignore the fact that every EV or hybrid fire you try to blame on lithium batteries has been proven to be false. You obviously can't come to terms with the fact that if lithium batteries in EV's were as dangerous as you claim we would have already seen actual lithium pack fires. There have been zero. Not only that, but lithium packs in cars that have been involved in fires did not explode and are often still functional.
    11 Mar 2013, 07:06 PM Reply Like
  • "Mr. Grembam, who is also associated with CalCars, could not explain the cause of the fire, which had occurred while the vehicle was being charged. “It’s not obvious,” he said. “The car exploded and apparently destroyed all the evidence.”"


    5 USD/mile + (Vehicle cost-200 USD scrap)+electricity


    I'll finish the equation as soon as I figure out the maintenance. I think it's still a good deal cuz they saved a bundle in this category.


    Pass the cat. Salad anyone?
    8 Mar 2013, 05:32 PM Reply Like
  • 03/08/2013: EOD stuff partially copied from instablog (up later?).
    # Trds: 21, MinTrSz: 100, MaxTrSz: 30000, Vol 136805, AvTrSz: 6515
    Min. Pr: 0.3050, Max Pr: 0.3198, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.3092
    # Buys, Shares: 12 21425, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.3123
    # Sells, Shares: 9 115380, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.3086
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 1:5.39 (15.7%), DlyShts 4160 (03.04%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 3.61%


    As mentioned yesterday, I thought we'd see either price appreciation or increased volume, but not both. We got the former, for which I'm grateful, but I don't see the rise sustaining until we get both at once. I think the continued weak “buy:sell” suggests this. Further, shares that were “buys” had a count tantalizingly close to yesterdays daily short volume of 29K. With yesterday's VWAP being $0.3126 and today's much lower (even the “buys” were lower today), MMs might have been making some covering buys for any shorts left open from yesterday at attractive prices, especially if today they acquired most on the “sell” side.


    We had a notable bid of 75K @ $0.3099 put in today that eventually traded along with one additional 5K at that price. These will skew the average trade size up with this low volume along with the VWAP we see. Excluding these trades, volume would be 51.81K, average trade size would be 3,238 and VWAP would be $0.3080. This not to discount these trades at all, but rather to provide some context.


    On the traditional TA front, we still have potential new rising trading channel in place as the new support line I recently added seems to be, so far, holding. But without some volume - and I'd really like to see one more re-test with it - I can't say if it appears “strong” or not. With declining volume these last four days there's likely to be another re-test and we'd want to see it hold with good volume, at least in the following days.


    I'm even more insistent since the close would've been $0.305 if not for a single 100 share traded at the ask, $0.3198, just before the close. I feel (now “felt” since we had an implied “confession” in the APC) someone is trying to “lead” the market higher. If the close had been $0.305, as it should've been IMO, we would have an open, close and low all at $0.305 – a “Gravestone Doji” candlestick. The trading community sees this as a bearish reversal indicator but Bulkowski notes it is really random with a reversal actually occurring only 51% of the time.


    The 50-day SMA is $0.3207, a tad above today's high. With the close at $0.3198, we buy another day of it rising. If we stay right here, we've got another seven days of it rising. We're still pretty much centered in my 13-period Bollingers.


    Several of the oscillators I watch improved slightly, but in the range of “meh”. Without volume I wouldn't place much trust in them anyway. Meanwhile, the stochastic continues to travel towards oversold territory, but it may need some volume on weakening price to achieve it. ADX and related also continue to weaken.


    On my experimental charts, average trade size is solidly in the upper-mid range of what I think is retail, but don't forget the discussion above about the larger trade today. Buy:sell still stinks and isn't suggesting any upside ATM. My original experimental inflection point calculations are still weakening further and my new ones are in agreement.


    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.


    8 Mar 2013, 06:46 PM Reply Like
  • Another report on alternative energy storage technologies that overlooks PbC.

    8 Mar 2013, 08:48 PM Reply Like
  • >D-inv ... " ... overlooks PbC" Are you surprised? The people that know about Axion what is capable of probably wouldn't fill a high school football stadium.



    Even fewer have ever seen one.
    8 Mar 2013, 09:03 PM Reply Like
  • It seems to be referring to the same report linked previously sometime here in the last couple of days.. a total shame that they didn't evaluate PbC, but at least it does help to better define the competitive landscape... all in all just seems like a limited study though any way you cut it..
    8 Mar 2013, 09:23 PM Reply Like
  • I got a copy of the paper from a friend on Wedbesday and spent about an hour on the phone with Dr. Barnhart yesterday. The bottom line story of his paper is far different from the portrayal in the optimistic green press and some of the data points I've gleaned from the work at Stanford and Argonne is shocking. It all bodes well for the PbC which remains the most energetically efficient battery on the planet, but the results are still shocking.


    As a special sneak preview; did you know that the cradle-to-gate energy to make a 1 kWh lithium-ion battery totals 472 kWh equivalents of fossil fuels, or that more energy goes into making an 85 kWh battery pack for a Tesla Model S than the car will consume in 150,000 miles?
    8 Mar 2013, 10:21 PM Reply Like
  • That's going to be some interesting reading...much looking forward to it..


    So if a gallon of gasoline contains like 35KWh (?) then it takes like 1100 gallons of gasoline (at 100% conversion) just to make the battery in the first place? That's awesome.
    8 Mar 2013, 10:29 PM Reply Like
  • " The people that know about Axion what is capable of probably wouldn't fill a high school football stadium."


    And I call that an outright marketing failure. WHY should shareholders accept such lack of awareness of the product at this point in time?
    8 Mar 2013, 10:30 PM Reply Like
  • John, Very interesting.
    8 Mar 2013, 10:37 PM Reply Like
  • D:


    At the risk of posting unsolicited advice, my recommendation would be to buy a couple thousand shares of a company that is on a roll. If your portfolio is making you money, even a few hundred or few thousand bucks, waiting for Axion probably will not bother you anywhere near as much.


    "You can't hurry love
    No, you just have to wait
    You got to trust, give it time
    No matter how long it takes"
    8 Mar 2013, 11:11 PM Reply Like
  • I think it's just what's been said before...Axion, a small company with finite manpower and resources, rather quickly found itself with a lot of potential dance partners and prom dates... it was a good problem to have, and they did the best they could trying to focus on the likeliest suitors... they couldn't give everyone the attention they might have liked, and now (to stretch the metaphor probably too far, sorry) they find themselves in kind of a stretched out disquieting lull, dressed up and ready for that first big dance, but not quite sure which of the big hopefuls is going to the first one to show up with an actual car...


    anyway, it's driving me a bit nutty too...
    8 Mar 2013, 11:25 PM Reply Like
  • Two years from now you'll have forgotten all about the long slow wait.
    9 Mar 2013, 12:08 AM Reply Like
  • Prolly true.. but still I been clickin my heels together jus' to pass the time..


    tap, tap, tap... there's no place like home..
    tap, tap, tap... there's no place like home..
    tap, tap, tap...
    tap, tap, tap.


    oh god...
    9 Mar 2013, 12:25 AM Reply Like
  • Not to spoil anything but was he aware of the PbC prior to your conversation?
    9 Mar 2013, 12:40 AM Reply Like
  • It could have been that the first dance partner failure kept the others from getting too "Exided"; thus it's been harder to get back out there even though there has been some flirting here and there.


    Just think if the Exide thing had all worked out we'd be years deeper into the oem process most likely.
    9 Mar 2013, 02:58 AM Reply Like
  • What specific lithium chemistry did they model? If it's straight LiCo then the data isn't relevant to the Tesla Model S, or any EV other than the Roadster.
    9 Mar 2013, 10:59 AM Reply Like
  • Stanford modeled LiCo and arrived at a value of 454 kWh of embodied energy per kWh of battery capacity.


    The 472 kWh of embodied energy per kWh of battery capacity came from a 2010 Argonne Labs study that modeled NCA and LMO.


    Since the two figures are within 10% of each other, I think your hand waving and protestations of irrelevance are irrelevant.
    9 Mar 2013, 02:41 PM Reply Like
  • 48,
    Don't be silly. I'm sure all the energy to make the battery packs comes from renewable sources. They would never use coal or oil to generate the electricity they need to make a Li-ion battery pack!
    9 Mar 2013, 10:06 PM Reply Like
  • I can't imagine where they got those numbers. This study page 30 Table 8
    shows an EV that is 1159lbs heavier than the ICE used for comparison, which puts the pack size on par with the Model S, and they come up with 12,637 MJ or 3,510 kWh of energy used to build the pack, which works out to 41kWh per kWh of battery, about 10 times less than you claim.
    10 Mar 2013, 10:33 AM Reply Like
  • You're looking at the wrong numbers a study that used average vehicle manufacturing data to arrive at a lowball estimate.


    A far more detailed review can be found in "A Review of Battery Life-Cycle Analysis: State of Knowledge and Critical Needs" –


    The cradle to gate embodied energy in lithium-ion batteries is about 1.7 MJ per watt hour, or about 472 WHe per WH.


    The fact that truth is painful does not make it any less true.
    10 Mar 2013, 10:53 AM Reply Like
  • The first huge flaw is they use 75 kWh per kg for lithium ion when Tesla is 250 kWh per kg at the cell level. Even cutting that in half for the pack level means they are modeling twice the materials per kWh that Tesla actually requires. As I suspected your number is not close to reality, though I'm sure you'll continue to use it.
    10 Mar 2013, 11:13 AM Reply Like
  • Unlike you I don't claim to know more than the experts. It's called using the best available authoritative information instead of assuming away all problems.
    10 Mar 2013, 11:17 AM Reply Like
  • "It's called using the best available authoritative information..."


    It's actually called cherry picking the data. While that's SOP for lawyers, smart scientists don't do it. You can't hand waive away the Argonne National Lab.


    At any rate, I thought this was an investing site, with the green in buyers wallets being more important. Since Model S costs about the same as its ICE competition but has cheaper running costs, by JP's own criteria, Tesla is bound to be successful.
    10 Mar 2013, 12:54 PM Reply Like
  • He quoted a generic Argonne Lab study that used vehicle average mining and manufacturing inputs to arrive at a SWAG.


    I quoted an Argonne Lab study that focused exclusively on battery specific mining and manufacturing impacts. My Argonne data is supported by parallel data from Stanford University’s Global Climate and Energy Project.


    Guess which set of data is more accurate, reliable and comprehensive.
    10 Mar 2013, 12:59 PM Reply Like
  • Since I pointed out a huge flaw in the data your study is using as a basis no guessing is needed, that study is wrong when applied to the pack that Tesla is using. It's also going to be wrong for increasingly energy dense future technology.
    11 Mar 2013, 07:10 PM Reply Like
  • Since your commentary. Is detracting from the purpose of these Concentrators I've decided to actively ignore your nonsense instead of encouraging it.
    11 Mar 2013, 07:15 PM Reply Like
  • US EPA considers revising mileage evaluation procedures for advanced HEVs

    8 Mar 2013, 10:08 PM Reply Like