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  • Axion Power Concentrator 226: April 8: Axion Power Completes New Continuous Roll Carbon Sheeting Process 306 comments
    Apr 8, 2013 8:11 AM | about stocks: AXPW

    Latest News, Articles and Presentations...

    Axion Power's CEO Discusses Q4 2012 Results - Earnings Call Transcript

    Thomas Granville CEO: "We left the designation 'development stage company' in the dust in 2012 and there's no slowdown in sight."


    Axion Power Reports Results for 2012 --

    Chairman & CEO Thomas Granville commented, "Axion continued to make important strides in the fourth quarter, making 2012 a landmark year overall. Obviously our best year ever will be the first year when PbC revenue starts to show significant growth but it was a good step in that direction that we were able to recognize the first big PbC sale in the 4th quarter, to Norfolk Southern. This coincides with our first 10K filing without "development stage company" status. With our increase in sales, and more specifically sales of our core business product, we are now recognized as a commercial entity for filing purposes.


    Axion Power Completes New Continuous Roll Carbon Sheeting Process

    "This is a giant leap forward for us and allows us to make a better product at a reduced cost," said Axion Power's Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Thomas Granville. "It's the final step in automating our complete activated carbon negative electrode manufacturing process and it brings us tighter quality control, better production yields, meaningful production quantities and significant labor cost reductions..."

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Axion Power and EPower Engine Systems Inaugurate Strategic Alliance Using PbC Batteries in Hybrid Drivetrains for Class 8 Trucks


    Dr. Ed Buiel, Axion's CTO until the end of 2010 -- A link to an archive of his comments on yadoodle about the PbC battery and much more. Invaluable commentary! Thanks to 481086 for putting the list together.

    Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications -- Axion completed shipping its high-performance PbC batteries to Norfolk Southern Corp. (NS), one of North America's leading transportation providers, for use in Norfolk Southern's first all electric locomotive - the NS-999.

    Axion Power Residential Energy Storage HUB Certified to UL, CSA Standards -- Axion receives UL certification and CSA Standards for their Residential Energy Storage HUB.

    "ePower's Series Hybrid Electric Drive - Unmatched Fuel Economy for Heavy Trucks" -- by John Petersen. Discusses the potential fuel savings for ePower's Hybrid electric drive for class 8 trucks using Axion's PbC batteries.

    "Axion Power - A Battery Manufacturer Charging Forward" -- by John Petersen. This is an excellent summation on Axion Power's history. It is a good starting point for introducing Axion Power to friends and family.

    13th European Lead Battery Conference, ELBC -- Sliderocket of John Petersen's presentation at the ELBC.

    Dr. Ender's Dickinson's Presentation on Axion's PbC -- Link to his slideshow at the 13th ELBC.

    Axion Power's 3rd Quarter Report and Press Release -- Seeking Alpha also published the transcript of the conference call here.

    RoseWater Joins Queen's University on Energy Storage Study -- Testing will determine the effects of residential energy storage systems on local power grids.

    Axion Power Weighted Moving Average Prices and Volume:

    The 10-, 20-, 50- 100- and 200-day averages stacked up in proper order from lowest to highest, which sets the ground for a rally when an event comes along.

    (click to enlarge)

    (click to enlarge)


    Axion Power Monthly Volume versus FINRA Short Percentage:

    (by John Petersen)

    In late January I wrote an Instablog about the precipitous decline in reported FINRA short sales as a percentage of total trading volume. Over the last two weeks that trend has accelerated and the percentages for the month of February and the last four weeks are solidly in single digits. I view this graph as another confirmation of seller exhaustion. The big uglies are history and it looks like everybody who really wanted to sell already has.

    John Petersen's instablog here.

    (click to enlarge)


    Axion Power Concentrator Comments:

    (click to enlarge)

    Links to important Axion Power research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites, created by APC commentator Bangwhiz. It is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one, including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website. The first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

    Axion Power Intra day Statistics Tracking: HTL tracks and charts AXPW's intra-day statistics.
    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!
    WARNING: This is a troll free zone. We reserve the right to eliminate posts, or posters that are disruptive.


    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

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Comments (306)
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  • Ta-da!


    8 Apr 2013, 08:13 AM Reply Like
  • Dammit, Bobby!
    8 Apr 2013, 08:16 AM Reply Like
  • Tres!
    8 Apr 2013, 08:56 AM Reply Like
  • Miss Congeniality again ;-(
    8 Apr 2013, 08:58 AM Reply Like
  • Good morning all!
    I was thinking of sending out a tweet later today saying that Axion will be releasing important information sometime in the future.


    I wonder if it will get the same reaction as it would if my last name was Musk? ;-)
    8 Apr 2013, 10:50 AM Reply Like
  • <sarcasm>And while you're at it, you should ask anyone who thinks they might buy a battery sometime in the future to send the money now. Do they take paypal? </sarcasm>
    I can't see any other company besides Tesla getting away with this.
    8 Apr 2013, 11:33 AM Reply Like
  • There is a long and "proud" tradition of channel stuffing. TSLA just created a slightly different form. So they're not the first to "get away with it."
    8 Apr 2013, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • Axion could learn a thing or two from Tesla's marketing prowess.
    8 Apr 2013, 02:56 PM Reply Like
  • Monthly Altoona report:


    "Still nothing to report except that I know it's still inside.


    I'm not aware of them doing any physical work on a road version at this time. If they did, I would imagine it would be built on an SD40 or SD60 frame."
    8 Apr 2013, 11:29 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks WTB!


    "Loco"motive. Fitting. Maybe this is Ozzy Osbourne's Crazy Train? Driving people crazy from waiting? ;(
    8 Apr 2013, 11:40 AM Reply Like
  • Thanks Wtb!


    8 Apr 2013, 12:53 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks!
    8 Apr 2013, 01:07 PM Reply Like
  • Thx, wtb.


    TG mentioned in the November 2012 conf call that some of the other subs were behind schedule. Maybe it's still that way.


    Either way, still being inside, taking presumably valuable space, remains a good sign.
    8 Apr 2013, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • thanks wtb, I would assume if it's taking up valuable space then it's being worked on.


    Could you ask him how long it takes to totally rebuild an engine like this ?


    I would think we may be getting close to seeing it roll outside.
    8 Apr 2013, 01:53 PM Reply Like
  • LT, I could ask, but I'm quite certain the answer is "it depends" on business priorities and skill sets required (which I have asked about) and how much in demand those people are.


    I have asked about how many folks it took to do the first time and skill sets, but didn't get answers. Not sure if he doesn't know, or is just a real busy guy with not much time to devote to some guy he doesn't know whose only virtue is that he's polite!


    At a simplistic level, there's 2 parts ... the "tear down" which they're expert at, and the "build up" which they may perhaps be still inventing/perfecting or experimenting on
    8 Apr 2013, 02:04 PM Reply Like
  • Something to listen to while we wait for the retrofit to be completed.

    8 Apr 2013, 02:20 PM Reply Like
  • Speaking of the tear down phase, nice pic:

    9 Apr 2013, 03:58 PM Reply Like
  • Wtb: I like to dwell on the possibility that it's awaiting its turn in the shop because NS-999 has priority and is taking the space ATM! :-))


    Good picture too!


    9 Apr 2013, 04:38 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks, WTB! That beats it sitting out in the back, just waiting.
    8 Apr 2013, 11:34 AM Reply Like
  • Inside. Taking up valuable shop space. We can be certain that progress is being made, if not it would be outside in the cold.
    8 Apr 2013, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • From Lab to Market: DOE's America’s Next Top Energy Innovator Program


    April 5, 2013



    Brief interviews with folks from Vorbeck and California Lithium Battery. Credit to DOE "creativity" in selling/publicizing what might well have been a dry press release of an initiative to create jobs and get more value from research that's already been paid for.


    "Last week, the Department of Energy launched an expanded version of its popular America’s Next Top Energy Innovator Program -- which, since 2011, has unleashed the National Laboratories’ unlicensed patents for use by startups looking to build their businesses and bring energy technologies from the lab to the marketplace. The revamped program expands the class of eligible startups to include all companies that are less than five years old, have fewer than 50 employees, and have received less than $5 million in funding since incorporation. "
    8 Apr 2013, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • For the not mathematically challenged. Locomotive study that in effect looks like the NSC OTR battery powered locomotive plan. Looks like it's from "Down Under".


    Evaluation of Battery Power Boosted Freight Locomotives

    8 Apr 2013, 02:46 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks ii,
    Sometimes I tend to forget how large the World locomotive fleet is when I only hone in on NS. The OTR market can be a mainstay fir Axion. At least the math works out.
    8 Apr 2013, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco, Is this saying they already have prototypes in use? or is this a simulated lab test?
    To the novice it looks like a real life test where someone has a battery that will take the regen braking and work.


    I see all the reference material is from 2004-1007, when was the paper written?
    8 Apr 2013, 03:33 PM Reply Like
  • LT, It's a computer simulation. They do an OK job laying out some of their assumptions.


    I also couldn't find great info. on the dates associated with the study. The link has some dates one of which is 4/2012. Might be a date for a presentation?
    8 Apr 2013, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist> There are about 24,000 locomotives in the U.S. Globally the addressable market is closer to 100,000 units.


    LT> The study was a simulation "Evaluation of the effectiveness of regenerative braking on freight trains was conducted using CRE- LTS simulation software."
    8 Apr 2013, 03:40 PM Reply Like
  • >iindelco ... Likely date of origination is 5/17/2011. The date the security seal on this particular files was issued.
    8 Apr 2013, 03:43 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks DRich! :)
    8 Apr 2013, 03:44 PM Reply Like
  • John, Almost one locomotive in the world for every person on this train! First time I saw this clip I went "Holy Crap".


    Resource constrains where? ;)

    8 Apr 2013, 03:53 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks ii-


    "The reduction in diesel consumption could result in a saving of up to $48.9 million dollars for the year based on the current price of diesel at $1.24 per litre. The money saved from the reduction in diesel consumption could possibly be used to partially offset the cost of retrofitting and maintaining a fleet of locomotives with the regenerative braking system."
    8 Apr 2013, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • Until UNCLE decides he cannot do without the tax revenue from reduced fuel sales, and raises the tax rates on fuel.
    9 Apr 2013, 10:46 AM Reply Like
  • njb - locomotives don't pay road fuel taxes in the US
    9 Apr 2013, 11:30 AM Reply Like
  • I think we had been discussing what Germany can do with its excess green electricity. Looks like they may be getting creative now.



    Mississauga, Ontario - April 8, 2013 - Hydrogenics Corporation (NASDAQ: HYGS; TSX: HYG), a leading developer and manufacturer of hydrogen generation and hydrogen-based power modules, today announced that it has been awarded a 1 megawatt hydrogen energy storage system to be deployed in the City of Hamburg, Germany. Hydrogenics' energy storage application will employ advanced proton exchange membrane ("PEM") technology for production of the hydrogen, using excess power generated from renewable energy in the region, primarily wind. This "Power-to-Gas" facility will be run by E.ON, a global provider of innovative energy services and an existing customer of Hydrogenics. In the core of the system will be the world's largest single PEM electrolyzer stack, which will serve as the building block for future multi-megawatt applications.
    8 Apr 2013, 04:37 PM Reply Like
  • Attention Rick Krementz (and possibly Drich)


    (moving thread from previous APC as seen here:


    Thanks, very helpful!


    Forgive me, I come from a Unix tradition of super simple tools that do one thing well and pipe their output to other tools to do other “conversions.”


    Sorry to prolong; answers to ANY of the following appreciated. If it’s any consolation, it took me a LONG time to write/edit/reorder this “novel” in Google Docs ... creating a reply that way may be easier ...


    If folks prefer to PM me Q# and answers they know for sure, I will be happy to create one (or possibly more smaller ones) filled with them and post it/them.


    As to capital cost comparison:


    Hub for sure has cost of a rectifier (AC to DC)


    Q1: Does this Princeton unit not also require a rectifier to store Grid power in the batteries? Would be needed for “time shifting,” right? If so, doesn’t it have to have roughly the same rectifier cost as the Hub?


    Q2/3: Rectifier cost? relatively small compared to all the other components described?


    Q4: Is all DC “input” power from PV or Wind always (and only) fed into the battery in the Hub?


    Q5: Is what makes the resultant power "pure/clean" (notwithstanding renewables variability) is ALWAYS being fed from the batteries and then out to a “simple 1 input” inverter?


    If so, then all "system DC inputs" have to go to the battery. There would be only 1 “merge and/or control” of DC inputs (one of which is the output of the rectifier from its AC Grid input) to form the battery’s DC input in the Hub. One would not be required as the input to the “simple inverter” would be (solely) the battery’s output.


    Q6/7: Is there a technical term for this merge and/or control role of multiple DC inputs to produce one DC output? Cost?


    We know at least one of these is required for control of battery input in both the Hub and the Princeton Unit. Of course if it’s only merging, not much of a cost.


    Q8: Do I have merge and control of inputs wrong? Maybe it’s control of outputs, and the “merging” of inputs is far simpler and with no control “electronics” required? Sounds dangerous, but who knows? There are DC merge and/or control points, and AC merge and/or control points for sure in the Princeton unit, possibly in the Hub depending on whether backup generators that produce AC are allowed as an input to the rectifier.


    Q9: Are there “backup” generators that produce DC output? Are there significant price difference over those that produce AC output? Those that produce either?


    Q10: Does the Hub allow or require a DC out backup generator?


    Q11: Does the Hub allow or require an AC out backup generator)? If so, there’s a merge and/or control on the (AC) input side of the rectifier ...


    Q12/13: Is there a technical term for this merge and/or control role of multiple AC inputs to produce 1 AC ouput? Cost?


    Q14: Is this “multiple AC input merge and/or control” capability a built in part of every/most built in quantity rectifier so it’s not an additional cost for that usage?


    If batteries being the sole DC input to the “simple 1-input” inverter is not what makes AC output “pure/clean” in the Hub, then there can be times when part or all of the power from DC inputs is used “directly” without efficiency loss of going in and out of the battery (in this case the battery supplements whatever is needed.)


    The Princeton unit at the least has to "merge and/or control" various AC sources to produce the “dirty” AC out side ... either direct from the Grid, or AC resulting from inversion of a “merged” DC input. If there’s an input control piece, this is a cost not in the Hub. Not sure if it accepts an AC backup generator input, and if so where its ouput goes. Could go only to the battery (possibly letting generator run more optimally?) but might also go as an input to the “dirty” AC producer, thus without conversion loss.


    Back to capital cost comparison, in the HUB either


    a) there is only 1 DC input to the "simple 1 input" inverter (that is DC output from the battery) that needs to be inverted to AC.




    b) multiple set of DC inputs (battery, PV, Wind, backup generator?) to the (not now as simple) inverter. [in addition to multiple DC inputs to the battery]


    Q15: is this multiple DC input “merge and/or control” part of every/most “simple” inverter build in quantity so there’s no additional cost?


    At some point (or points) you have to "merge [and control!] " various DC inputs. Either all to the battery (see Q4 above) and/or all to the inverter. Maybe both of them?


    Thanks to anyone who devotes time to answering any of these! Feel free to play along at home to see how many you get right :-) ... it’ll distract you from obsessing about the share price, management compensation, etc. :-)
    8 Apr 2013, 04:43 PM Reply Like
  • Lot of questions, not sure I understand them all...


    I believe Princeton uses Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) for controls for four channels - see Power can be going in several directions simultaneously. This type of control is effective, but is inherently a little "dirty". The sine waves can be a little choppy. If the unit is well designed, this is adequate for the vast majority of power uses. There is one "intelligent" power supply, with four ports. Each port can be independently controlled with PWM. When the incoming power is 120v/60 cycles, it passes through the power supply right to the load, bypassing the batteries. No conversion is done. If the AC fails, the equipment changes to using battery power (in milliseconds).


    A full double inversion (or on-line or double conversion) is described here There are two separate power supplies. All the power goes to DC, then all the power is converted back from DC to AC. If the AC fails, the inverter is still connected and continues to produce AC; it does not even "know" the grid connection failed. There is not even a one microsecond pause. This is the Rosewater Hub design.


    DC can be controlled with PWM, too. Generators can produce DC as well as AC. I'm not sure what you are asking. Instead of a solar connection, a DC generator could be attached.


    I have not seen any pricing on the Princeton unit, but I assume it is significantly less expensive. A few months ago I researched a multi-port inverter around 10kw, and it was IIRC about a third the price of the Rosewater product.


    Both products have their markets. This comment is not trying to judge either one.
    8 Apr 2013, 06:27 PM Reply Like
  • Game on!


    $0.2600 40,000 OTO 15:59:59
    $0.2603 10,000 OTO 15:59:45
    $0.2749 100 OTO 15:59:02
    8 Apr 2013, 04:46 PM Reply Like
  • Just teasin' ... 3 occurrences of the word Axion, 4 ZBB.


    The Grid Scale Battery Storage Market 2013-2023
    By Reportlinker
    Published: Monday, Apr. 8, 2013 - 8:51 am


    Read more here:
    8 Apr 2013, 04:52 PM Reply Like
  • 04/08/2013: EOD stuff partially copied from instablog (up later).
    # Trds: 37, MinTrSz: 100, MaxTrSz: 40000, Vol 196151, AvTrSz: 5301
    Min. Pr: 0.2600, Max Pr: 0.2800, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2620
    # Buys, Shares: 17 56391, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.2659
    # Sells, Shares: 20 139760, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2604
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 1:2.48 (28.7% “buys”), DlyShts 11200 (5.71%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 8.01%


    Well, I thought maybe we would turn a corner today. Bid ask stayed relatively stable most of the day. The fly in the ointment spoiled my hope: a “big” trade of 37.5K, a “sell” at 11:49 at $0.2602 and two trades late in the day, 10K @ $0.2603 and 40K @ $0.26. Both at 15:59. The other “big” trades today, 13K and 15K, both were also sells at $0.2602. So I'm still awaiting the exhaustion of these folks before diving into any serious analysis and thought.


    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.


    8 Apr 2013, 06:05 PM Reply Like
  • >H.T.Love ... I think you're correct to put a hold on "any serious analysis and thought". I don't see any reason for exhaustion on the sell side.
    8 Apr 2013, 06:41 PM Reply Like
  • HTL, DRich... I don't see the selling pressure easing up for good until some time after the financing is announced. Hopefully it will be immediately after.
    8 Apr 2013, 06:45 PM Reply Like
  • DRich: "... exhaustion on the sell side".


    Yeah, but it was causing exhaustion on the H2L side - I'm almost thankful for the excuse to take a break. :-((


    8 Apr 2013, 06:51 PM Reply Like
  • >H.T.Love ... I suggest you do what the stock is doing. Lay down, take a nap. Just don't you fall off the couch.
    8 Apr 2013, 06:57 PM Reply Like
  • HTL, Rest well. It's a necessity. Otherwise the market will have you scratching your head until it bleeds. ;(
    Hey, 6 foot rabbit. What time is it?
    8 Apr 2013, 07:57 PM Reply Like
  • I'm late!
    8 Apr 2013, 08:30 PM Reply Like
  • Tick! Tock!
    8 Apr 2013, 11:22 PM Reply Like
  • :)). To a very important date.


    I think we will see one soon. I was guessing tomorrow. A long shot on the exact timing but it's coming soon enough.
    9 Apr 2013, 12:06 AM Reply Like
  • "I'm late!"


    Those words still send chills of fear and remorse up my spine.
    9 Apr 2013, 05:27 AM Reply Like
  • As in "The rabbit died" sort of "I'm late?"


    Irate father with shotgun? Yup, that can be chilling....
    9 Apr 2013, 08:10 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin,
    Yes, you got the drift. I couldn't help connecting iindelco's rabbit comment with John's "I'm late".
    9 Apr 2013, 09:01 AM Reply Like
  • Someone asked about Exide Tech. OEM sales. Here are a couple things that give one a sense of their scale.




    Edit Careful with the last article OE market share because it looks high for world wide for sure.
    8 Apr 2013, 06:44 PM Reply Like
  • Let's hope JCI senses they still have a hole in their automotive offerings for some level of electrification. We sense they do. All that cash. All we want is a little!


    Chinese auto supplier aims to buy JCI's electronics business

    8 Apr 2013, 06:47 PM Reply Like
  • The idea of military lasers needing battery's had never occurred to me.
    "Navy program for 50 Kilowatt truck mounted lasers for shooting down drones"
    9 Apr 2013, 08:42 AM Reply Like
  • Victor,
    One can see why the military is a great proving ground.
    I don't know how much a battery system of any kind weighs, that can operate a 25kw-50kw laser beam. But when the whole shebang has to weigh under 2,500 lbs I get the feeling it might be a tough row to hoe.
    Anybody know how much battery power they are talking here?
    9 Apr 2013, 09:00 AM Reply Like
  • I want one of those so I can counter DHS.


    9 Apr 2013, 09:36 AM Reply Like
  • HTL, But it's for your security! Or perhaps a lost child.


    Tin Foil Hat pulled tightly over head as visions of Briton come into focus.
    9 Apr 2013, 09:49 AM Reply Like
  • Doesn't seem too difficult from a PbC POV. 50kw for two minutes is 1.7 kwh. Six PbCs would do it, weigh 438 lbs.


    50 kw equals 67 hp, so the vehicle's engine presumably has adequate power to recharge or fire continuously. Six batteries charging at 100 amps at 12 volts is 7.2 kw. I would think the vehicle normally would be shooting stopped, with the engine running. The batteries would give you "one" shot with engine off, although I expect it is really multiple one second shots cumulatively.

    9 Apr 2013, 10:39 AM Reply Like
  • Remember that these lasers might be 30% efficient (i.e. output power is only 1/3 the input power). 3X isn't a deal-breaker here, but it's significant when you're upping the generator and battery capacity.
    9 Apr 2013, 11:16 AM Reply Like
  • I wonder what powers this device:


    Watch a Navy Laser Gun Blast a Drone Right Out of the Sky


    Could it be placed on a small PbC-powered stealth vessel?



    edit: This gives more details:


    <<The LaWS presently generates its own power. “As we move into future fielding, the opportunity is there to go into the ship’s power grid,” Eccles says — a key step to eventually scale up to a megawatt’s worth of power, which can burn through 20 feet of steel in a second. Generating that level of power, still an engineering challenge, will allow the Navy to neutralize anti-ship missiles and fighter jets. Klunder said he believes that while getting up to a megawatt is “certainly part of a longer-term future, there’s a power level significantly less than that that will give us greater effects” against similar challenges.


    But the biggest advantage that Eccles and Klunder advertise for the age of the laser weapon is financial. “We’re not talking about something that costs millions of dollars or multi-thousands of dollars,” said Klunder. “We’re talking something — and this is true data; remember, I’m a test pilot, so I deal in data, I don’t deal in PowerPoints, I deal in real performance data — we’re talking about a pulse of directed energy that costs under a U.S. dollar.” Greenert beamed as he noted that the Navy’s shipboard gun and missile arsenal, at its cheapest, costs $5,000 per shot.


    A lot about that cost figure depends on successful integration aboard a ship’s deck; successfully drawing from a ship’s power without compromising the propulsion systems; and the cost of fuel per shot. And it also factors out the cost of the weapon itself. But if it turns out to be genuine, the Navy will have developed the rare high-end weapons system that undercuts the cost of adversary weapons.>>


    Could a "hybrid lead-acid capacitor device" provide sufficient instantaneous power?
    9 Apr 2013, 11:51 AM Reply Like
  • Deamiter, I was assuming about 50% efficiency in my calculations.
    9 Apr 2013, 12:10 PM Reply Like
  • 8:35 AM The race to provide charging stations for electric vehicles heats up on the West Coast after Kroger (KR) joins Walgreen (WAG), Whole Foods (WFM), and IKEA to provide customers parking lot charging stations. What to watch: Retailers continue to slowly edge into the field in an effort not to get left behind, but until a major restaurant chain (say McDonald's (MCD)?) jumps in with a partnership to offer a national network of charging stations along major interstates the phenomenon will remain a primarily limited to affluent urban areas. [Consumer] 2 Comments
    9 Apr 2013, 09:15 AM Reply Like
  • I went out to eat on a a barrier island the other day. These trips usually put you in bumper to bumper traffic, for a long time, over a very long bridge, during the tourist season. When we got to our destination I noticed a "Leaf" charging at a single charge station, at the Aquarium attraction across the street.


    This brought several questions to my mind.
    1. What if someone else needed to charge?
    2. How long can these stations remain free?
    3. Why is this station here? Certainly it cost more than the admission fee of the Aquarium.
    4. Even if every parking lot had a station ( the grid will like that)
    how could this ever work on a large scale?
    9 Apr 2013, 09:31 AM Reply Like
  • In my hometown, Madison Wi known for its progressive tendencies they have put in a few charging stations in the parking lot and they share a stall with the Handicapped spaces. Therefore if someone is using a charging spot the handicap spot is occuipied. I am waiting for some sort of issue.


    If I had a handicapped plate I would be causing the issue.
    9 Apr 2013, 09:37 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist, The answer is that it doesn't work other than for special purposes. Well, unless your government pays for it or forces others to pay.


    Mrholty, :))
    9 Apr 2013, 09:54 AM Reply Like
  • ii,
    Yes. It always works when the other guy pays. I like the concept of the battery swap idea. There are enough gas stations around that a universal battery pack swap could be introduced Nationwide. This would make sense to the grid and to longer battery life ( since proper charging has a lot to do with battery life). I can see it that way, but not the way it is being done now.
    But one never knows what the consumer will actually like. That's what makes investing so damn interesting.
    9 Apr 2013, 10:04 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist, I'm not sure the battery swap thing works for me so well for at least two reasons.


    1) The automakers don't want generic because they give up too much control of the content of a vehicle. They want unique because it locks them in as the provider.


    2) The infrastructure doesn't scale easily. You need to spend billions up front in order to provide enough swapping points / charge stations and the users are not going to buy the vehicles fast enough to sponsor it because the technology is just not that compelling.
    9 Apr 2013, 10:37 AM Reply Like
  • My problem with the battery swap thing from a consumer's point of view is the idea that I may take good care of my battery, but then have to swap it for one which has not been taken care of. My battery which needs recharging might have 90% of its useful life left, and the one which is swapped in may have only 50% left. People who know they are not tied to a particular battery pack might be less likely to take excellent care of it.


    To me, it would be tantamount to swapping out my car's engine for one from a stranger's car. Crap shoot.
    9 Apr 2013, 10:48 AM Reply Like
  • Milhouse, Yeah it doesn't really work unless someone else owns the batteries and you're charged at some level a time and use related fee. I'm also assuming that some level of the system is smart to allow the owner of the batteries to collect fees based on how the batteries are charged and discharged along with the time in the renters possession.


    I'm sure Better Place has it all figured out, along with the fact that there's no money to be made yet.
    9 Apr 2013, 11:01 AM Reply Like
  • >Mrholty


    So Madison WI equates driving a BEV with being handicapped?


    I do not know whether to view that as prescient or ironic.
    9 Apr 2013, 12:11 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin,


    Your question leads me to wonder whether the city considers the handicap to be the car itself, or the brain which orchestrated its purchase...
    9 Apr 2013, 12:22 PM Reply Like
  • As in "paralyzed from the neck up?"
    9 Apr 2013, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • Millhouse,
    I'm not sure you understand the swap correctly. You buy the car w/no battery. The filling station ( swap center) changes your battery every time its low with a new set of batteries. Just like filling up your car with gas. It takes less than one minute. It is an automated system. The batteries are cared for by experts at charging. The batteries are charged during times of low cost grid electricity. Batteries are tested so you never get a bad battery.


    That is the theory of battery swap. Indelco has pointed out barriers to entry. I would agree that it is difficult to accomplish. I simply think it is the best scheme for getting EVs affordable and to eliminate range anxiety. But I would agree it is not likely here.


    Kandi is attempting this in China. But there you have massive government intrusion forcing the situation in cities where they can not have more noxious fumes spewing from automobiles.


    Much different social and structural situation.
    9 Apr 2013, 01:23 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist, I agree with you that if anyone can do it the Chinese can. I don't follow Kandi that closely but they are an interesting possibility. The uptake of E-bikes and scooters tells me they have a chance if they are hugging the low end of the market. I did read an article awhile ago concerning the conversion market for low end EV's and how it was booming there. Lot's of little signs that make Kandi an interesting read vs my felling about the plans by companies such as Nissan and Tesla.


    Do you recall if any level of the Chinese government is offering incentives for LAB powered vehicles? I seem to recall that this was not being supported.
    9 Apr 2013, 01:35 PM Reply Like
  • Kandi has a chance in the China as drivers are not conditioned. Will not work in the US as would service stations have enough staff to swap the items out. There is a reason you don't find Full Service stations outside of Oregon and NJ. Will people really be willing to swap out a battery for $10/time for battery anxiety. Will Kandi or whatever be able to reasonably ensure quality accross their entire system to keep only good batteries, etc.


    US Cellular had a program where people could swap out their battery in the phone with one from the store if it was dead as that was a common complaint for people. The problem was I would have to give you my good battery that was dead and I'd get a battery in return that lasted between 10 minutes and 1 hour. Poor QC and execution- US cellular just stopped the practice.
    9 Apr 2013, 01:45 PM Reply Like
  • Kandi will be plugged into a grid that is less efficient, has less pollution control equipment (That they often don't use even when available) and is more coal dependent than the US and Europe.
    Also China's grid is becoming more coal dependent not less.
    Nore are they building particularly efficient power plants. (Usually 32% last I heard)
    The pollution from EVs will be multiples of that in the US. Rather than cleaning the air it will make things worse. Particulats heave metals Mercury Arsenic etc.
    Even CO2 will be higher in nearly all of China.


    Basically it is a horrible idea for the environment.
    Kandi I think will make money for a while. When the govt. figures out what a horrendous mistake they have made I expect the door on Kandy will be slammed shut with China's usual speed.


    While I think it will make money for a year or two when it gets found out I would not want to be there.


    AFAICT Kandi's battery has no form of thermal management system. It will probably be prone to heat degradation and capacity loss the same as the Leaf in the heat.
    This is a problem that won't probably show up for a year or two but probably will.


    Short term to medium term investment only IMO. Which is worth what you are paying for it.
    9 Apr 2013, 03:33 PM Reply Like
  • The BP swap concept was flawed from the beginning, and the collapse of BP proves what many of us have been saying from the start.
    9 Apr 2013, 10:42 PM Reply Like
  • hit the ask for 1k shares just to get on the board. - Long time Lurker w/ ~90k shares
    9 Apr 2013, 10:23 AM Reply Like
  • Hello User55, Welcome out from the shadows! :)
    9 Apr 2013, 10:30 AM Reply Like
  • Welcome User550230. May we call you "55"? As in



    9 Apr 2013, 10:57 AM Reply Like
  • Good to hear from you 55, especially with a buy. Hopefully the tax distressed selling is over. I had to let 7 k go yesterday so that I can cover my unexpected tax check next Monday.
    9 Apr 2013, 10:31 AM Reply Like
  • along those same lines - I barely avoided "kitchen-renovation" induced selling recently. I can sympathize with anyone who's spouse asks for Axion updates
    9 Apr 2013, 10:45 AM Reply Like
  • 55: "can sympathize with anyone who's spouse asks for Axion updates "


    That'll change ... shortly? In our fondest dreams, of course! ;-))


    9 Apr 2013, 11:00 AM Reply Like
  • My wife doesn't ask for updates.
    9 Apr 2013, 10:12 PM Reply Like
  • A truly wealthy man, indeed!
    9 Apr 2013, 10:51 PM Reply Like
  • Fisker biting the dust:

    9 Apr 2013, 10:53 AM Reply Like
  • Downtown Chicago Is One Giant Ice Bear



    Live in the area, and didn't know about this. 2 videos attached: 2nd(youtube) one is more "professional," but they each have their moments.


    Article also has an expired link to a Ice-Bear (which has been mentioned a couple of times here) project in a nearby town, but this one works:


    St. Charles To Test Experimental Energy Technology
    December 8, 2012


    Program through state, Verde Energy will install $75,000 HVAC unit with ‘Ice Bear’ technology to make ice to cool a Public Works building during the summer months.

    9 Apr 2013, 11:09 AM Reply Like
  • wtb - I had heard of Ice Bear doing cooling on individual buildings, but I didn't realize they were doing district cooling. Kewl! Thanks.
    9 Apr 2013, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • rk - If your "they" refers to Ice Bear, I don't think Ice Bear is involved with the Chicago district project. The headline was just a play on the then recent news of the St. Charles project which was done by Ice Bear.
    9 Apr 2013, 11:56 AM Reply Like
  • What have we here? Total coincidence.


    Evanston, Illinois selects Verde Energy as retail electricity supplier


    By Editors of Electric Light & Power/ POWERGRID International



    "The city of Evanston, Illinois, selected Verde Energy USA, an independent retail power supplier and energy solutions provider, as the city's electricity supplier, effective August 2013.


    As part of its agreement with the city, Verde Energy will also install Ice Bear technology — a clean energy storage system — in one of Evanston's municipal buildings."


    BTW, Evanston is site of the coming Net-Zero Walgreens.
    9 Apr 2013, 08:06 PM Reply Like
  • Wish we could buy stock in Ice Bear too.
    10 Apr 2013, 08:42 AM Reply Like
  • Speaking (above) of Military and my Just Teasin' review of Battery Storage market, one of the companies mentioned was new to me:


    Epsilor is a world leader in the development and production of custom portable power systems for the military, medical, aerospace, industrial and EV markets. Epsilor’s expertise lies in battery cell selection, primary and rechargeable battery pack design, assembly and electronic circuitry; battery charging systems and smart charging electronics. Customers include government agencies, the military and large corporations.



    Part of:


    Arotech Corporation provides quality defense and security products for the military, law enforcement and homeland security markets, including advanced zinc-air and lithium batteries and chargers, multimedia interactive simulators and trainers. Arotech operates two business divisions: Battery and Power Systems and Simulation, Training and Consulting.


    The Battery and Power Systems Division includes:


    Electric Fuel Corporation – developing and manufacturing zinc-air batteries for military applications, located in Auburn, Alabama, USA;


    Epsilor Electronic Industries – developing and manufacturing military rechargeable and non-rechargeable lithium batteries and smart chargers, located in Israel;


    The Simulation, Training and Consulting Division includes:


    IES Interactive Training – developing and manufacturing simulators and training courses for police and law enforcement agencies, located in Ann Arbor, Michigan


    FAAC Incorporated – develops and manufactures simulations and trainers for air combat applications and vehicle driving operations, located in Ann Arbor, Michigan


    Realtime Technologies - offers consulting services, applications, and custom solutions specializing in multibody vehicle dynamics and graphical simulations, located in Royal Oak, Michigan



    Electric Fuel® is the brand name of Arotech Corporation's Battery and Power Systems Division. The Military Batteries Division specializes in the design and manufacture of primary and rechargeable batteries (lithium ion, lithium polymer, zinc air and other chemistries), related electronic circuits and associated chargers for military applications. The company develops batteries for unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) and micro-air vehicles (MAV) and has expertise in working with government agencies, the military, and large original equipment manufacturers.


    The Electric Vehicle Divsion's mission is to bring about the deployment of zero-emission zinc-air electric buses in fleets of transit systems and school districts, providing zero-emission transportation at reasonable costs. Electric Fuel's all-electric bus, powered by our Zinc-Air fuel cell technology, has demonstrated a world record 127-mile range under rigorous urban conditions.

    9 Apr 2013, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • Late last summer the expectation was that AXPW would be out of cash by the end of March, 2013


    We understand that our management are very cash conscious. I like this.


    We also have unearthed the fact that there was a significant finished goods inventory at the end of 2013


    We also know the company has negligible borrowing. Presumably with some sales AXPW might have some working capital lending available through normal conventional means


    All this to wonder how long we might go without a funding announcement. Moreover, if management have hopes for an announcement of importance before finalizing any capital raise there may be ways to extend operations without the capital raise


    I wish we knew more - but certainly I see this as a potential scenario unfolding. If yes it would be potentially positive to Axionistas


    We wait and watch - and watch and wait
    9 Apr 2013, 12:41 PM Reply Like
  • ABB Debuts Terra SmartConnect Electric Vehicle Charging Station



    "aimed squarely at commercial use among fleets, car dealerships "


    Zack's take:


    "can charge 30% to 80% battery of the currently available electric vehicles in less than half an hour."
    9 Apr 2013, 01:10 PM Reply Like
  • "... there may be ways to extend operations without the capital raise."


    Such as selling PbCs in "finished inventory."
    9 Apr 2013, 01:16 PM Reply Like
  • $2 Million in cash on December 30,2012
    $2.8 Million in inventory on that same date.
    $1.1 Million per quarter spent on R&D
    $1.1 Million per quarter spent on Administration.


    Yes, they could stretch it out into May. But since no layoffs have been announced I have to believe the financing is under control.


    If I'm wrong, well, it won't be the first time. But she that controls my life is going to be really upset.


    My 60th birthday on Thursday. I'm pretty sure TG is just waiting to give me a big surprise. Sorry you guys had to wait just for my pleasure.
    9 Apr 2013, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • "My 60th birthday on Thursday"


    Congrats. Us Aries have to stick together. Mine is today, 66.


    9 Apr 2013, 01:57 PM Reply Like
  • happy early b-day.
    9 Apr 2013, 01:58 PM Reply Like
  • When I briefly perused some of the year end financials, I got the impression they might be able to maintain operations at current levels another 2-3 months past March 31. The delay in the announced financing has me thinking more and more this could be a positive instead of the negative that's being priced into the pps.
    9 Apr 2013, 01:58 PM Reply Like
  • Happy Birthdays HTL and futurist. I was 61 on April 5. --- I still think Axion has a nice birthday present in store for me (us) this year. :-))
    9 Apr 2013, 02:02 PM Reply Like
  • Happy Birthday to HTL and Futurist! I appreciate you guys.
    9 Apr 2013, 02:05 PM Reply Like
  • Same from me. I wish you both the happiest of birthdays.


    Also, because surprises work, may Axion reward you both when you least expect it. Like during a dry eyes from staring at paint too long blinking moment! :))
    9 Apr 2013, 02:09 PM Reply Like
  • Happy Bday to HTL and futurist.
    9 Apr 2013, 02:12 PM Reply Like
  • Happy B-day early .. have a great one.
    9 Apr 2013, 02:14 PM Reply Like
  • Happy Birthday old man ! Have a great one and maybe TG rewards you and Futurist.
    9 Apr 2013, 02:15 PM Reply Like
  • >WayneinOregon ... All the guessing over the past year has the general consensus, if no orders, income or finance are at hand, the wind-down will start end of April with total shutdown by end of June. Who knows what happens then ... IIRC, no one has really gone there.


    With the facts as we know them, birthday wishes and a little "hopium" might be enough to get us through, but, otherwise, this timeline looks as accurate as any put out there via group think.
    9 Apr 2013, 02:16 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist, WIO, and HTL,
    Happy Birthdays. All of you have contributed immeasurably to this board.
    Thank you.
    9 Apr 2013, 02:18 PM Reply Like
  • WIO: Hope your's was a "gud 'un"!


    And may a nice surprise come your way shortly!


    9 Apr 2013, 02:22 PM Reply Like
  • H.T. Love & Futurist:




    I wish you many more-Carlos
    9 Apr 2013, 03:02 PM Reply Like
  • 61 last Feb 8th. Sounds like a bunch of old farts grasping for the golden ring!
    9 Apr 2013, 03:04 PM Reply Like
  • LOL we are !
    9 Apr 2013, 03:07 PM Reply Like
  • >AlbertinBermuda ...


    “How did it get so late so soon?
    It's night before it's afternoon.
    December is here before it's June.
    My goodness how the time has flewn.
    How did it get so late so soon?”
    ― Dr. Seuss
    9 Apr 2013, 03:07 PM Reply Like
  • Happy Birthday H2L and Futurist
    9 Apr 2013, 03:28 PM Reply Like
  • "$2 Million in cash on December 30,2012
    $2.8 Million in inventory on that same date.
    $1.1 Million per quarter spent on R&D
    $1.1 Million per quarter spent on Administration."


    Don't overlook $770k in accounts receivable on the books at year end, most of which was likely due to shipment of batteries to Norfolk Southern.
    9 Apr 2013, 05:05 PM Reply Like
  • Yes, AR's are a part of money available. Please note that I didn't address accounts payable, for that very reason.
    9 Apr 2013, 09:53 PM Reply Like
  • December 31, 2012


    Current Assets
    Cash and cash equivalents $2,004,391
    Accounts receivable 771,410
    Other receivables 21,860
    Prepaid expenses 173,115
    Inventory, net 2,838,791
    Total current assets $5,809,567 -- up $487,712 over 2011


    Meanwhile, current liabilities (including accounts payable) were $53,633 lower at end-2012 than at end-2011.
    9 Apr 2013, 10:11 PM Reply Like
  • 40 years old, old enough to appreciate the experience of those with more of it.
    10 Apr 2013, 08:43 AM Reply Like
  • Best Bday wishes to HTL on his day. Belated wishes to Wayne in Oregon.
    Thanks to all for their kind words. I actually had no idea as to the age of the participants but one gets the feeling that experience dwells on this site.
    But I love hearing some of the young enthusiasm from the members, no matter what age.
    9 Apr 2013, 02:10 PM Reply Like
  • I'll make a bid for the youngest here, at 29 years. Anyone got me beat?
    9 Apr 2013, 02:15 PM Reply Like
  • Happy B-day guys.
    I didn't think I'd be the youngster here, I turned 59 in Feb.
    9 Apr 2013, 02:41 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma: damn! I thought I was the youngest.


    But beware... 30s are just around the corner for you!
    9 Apr 2013, 02:42 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist: "experience dwells on this site"


    If you mean "made a ton of mistakes I'm likely to repeat a few more times", yep! ;-))


    9 Apr 2013, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • Since this is the b-day issue, you all might want to silently wish me a VERY happy birthday since mine is tomorrow. ranma, you have me beat by five years.
    9 Apr 2013, 07:51 PM Reply Like
  • Jakurtz, Have a great day tomorrow!


    WayneinOregon, And a happy belated birthday to you as well!


    9 Apr 2013, 07:57 PM Reply Like
  • Happy April Bday as well Jakurtz
    9 Apr 2013, 09:53 PM Reply Like
  • JAK: A happy, happy one. Hm , I wonder if so many Aries in one blog is a statistical aberration? Or may it's the number of candles that is the aberration? :-((


    10 Apr 2013, 05:44 AM Reply Like
  • Well you have one more (me) born in April, but thats all the information you are getting from me...
    10 Apr 2013, 09:58 AM Reply Like
  • Tim
    Bonfire engulfs small town?
    10 Apr 2013, 10:56 PM Reply Like
  • Ha! well not quite yet froggy...
    10 Apr 2013, 11:30 PM Reply Like
  • Maybe Susanne Klatten will throw a few pennies our way.


    Richest automotive shareholder anywhere in the world, and just bought control of one of the world's biggest carbon and graphite manufacturers - hmmmn ?

    9 Apr 2013, 02:17 PM Reply Like
  • Missing detail indeed! She is the largest shareholder of BMW!
    9 Apr 2013, 02:25 PM Reply Like
  • JR: Hope she doesn't follow TG's lead and throw them around "like manhole covers"! :-))


    9 Apr 2013, 02:25 PM Reply Like
  • Wow, love reading between the lines of this discovery! Thanks for the link.
    9 Apr 2013, 02:33 PM Reply Like
  • Good find JR....This could be a hidden gem. We know auto's are using lots of graphite....Carbon is closer to home.
    9 Apr 2013, 03:00 PM Reply Like
  • I would be happier if she were buying a coconut farm. Carbon fiber for body parts is man made carbon, not natural fiber. But it was a great connection JR. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.


    I did not know that BMW was close to BK at one time. And I had never heard of the man who saved it. Very interesting.
    9 Apr 2013, 03:07 PM Reply Like
  • JR


    Hows that list of slot in replacements for TG coming?
    9 Apr 2013, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • When SGL buys a coconut farm, shouldn't be necessary to "read between the lines"!
    9 Apr 2013, 03:41 PM Reply Like
  • just barely, ranma, 27 yrs old
    9 Apr 2013, 02:23 PM Reply Like
  • 55,
    You must be a genius. I remember that at age 27 I knew everything.


    If you know you don't know, then you are way smarter than I was.
    9 Apr 2013, 03:09 PM Reply Like
  • New analysis of Exide as a value stock:
    I found it compelling and bought a bigger stake than I had before I sold at $2.60.(got lucky, thanks to this board)
    9 Apr 2013, 03:21 PM Reply Like
  • 3:40PM Exide Tech: S&P puts 'B-' rating on creditwatch 'negative' on increasing uncertainty over financial flexibility (XIDE) 1.49 +0.03 :
    9 Apr 2013, 04:11 PM Reply Like
  • Hi for everyone!!!


    In this forum can finally three things will be happening:


    1-.We all happily win with Axion Power and much money.
    2-.Carlos learn to write in English.
    3-.That some of you learn Spanish.


    Por favor seleccione una-Carlos
    Please take one-Carlos
    9 Apr 2013, 03:53 PM Reply Like
  • Have a great day Carlos, you always make me smile & I could use help with my Spanish. I have not used it much since high school days long ago.
    9 Apr 2013, 03:56 PM Reply Like
  • >carlosgaviria ... ¿Qué, exactamente, sería expresado mejor en español? Mi español es mohoso..Muchas personas no me comprenden cuando hablo, así que hago no muy a menudo. Tengo miedo que mi escritura no es mejor.. Adivino el mejor uso que puedo poner a es que despotricar acerca de cosas la mayoría de las personas no querrá leer.
    9 Apr 2013, 10:36 PM Reply Like
  • Hi DRich!!


    Muy bien, se entiende perfectamente.


    Good Night (Buenas Noches)-Carlos
    10 Apr 2013, 01:27 AM Reply Like
  • Happy B-day to all you guys.
    9 Apr 2013, 04:43 PM Reply Like
  • We haven't heard anything about ePower in awhile from JP. Ready, willing and able to comment? Thanks again.


    Edited out my comment about their website being down, as I can access it again. Looks like no changes.
    9 Apr 2013, 05:29 PM Reply Like
  • Nothing that I can talk about.
    9 Apr 2013, 05:46 PM Reply Like
  • That was fast!


    BTW, continued good luck in getting them as an acct.
    9 Apr 2013, 05:57 PM Reply Like
  • Can't see where anything, except for testing news, will come out of ePower very soon. After full testing. Maybe the next order. But they have a lot of info to collect and disburse to their customer base.
    9 Apr 2013, 09:55 PM Reply Like
  • Sure would be nice if ePower published some easy, apples to apples, comparison of ePower truck A on route X-Y and traditional truck B on route X-Y, instead of a largely fictitious "national average" comparison that includes idling all night in Minnesota winters and crossing the Rockies at max weight. I would love for them to build credibility.
    9 Apr 2013, 10:05 PM Reply Like
  • Rick-


    I agree with you. I know you have been skeptical of e-Power as the big guys are not stupid. Everything I have read about this idea of hybrid was that it should work but that reasonably priced tech wasn't available.


    Do I have it right that the problem for a serial hybrid idea wasn't that they were too expensive or the discharge capabilities but instead the time to recharge which supposedly is a huge benefit of the PbC. Perchance that tech, or atleast reasonable tech has caught up to an old idea?
    9 Apr 2013, 10:39 PM Reply Like
  • "Can't see where anything, except for testing news, will come out of ePower very soon."


    I rank that (testing news) as the most probable near-term development. OTOH, it is now very near 2.5 months since JP and BWarneke visited ePower facilities and were told that over the following two weeks C-D cycle range on a 60 unit PbC battery pack would be increased from 1 volt (11v - 10V) to 6v (11v - 5v) and GVW would be increased from 55,000 lb to 80,000 lb.


    About a month later (& a month earlier than now) Axion and ePower announced through press release that ePower would exclusively use PbC batteries in their hybrid conversions (i.e. - stop dicking around with AGMs) for the next five years. That announcement can certainly be construed as a positive test report. It seems plausible that the next "test" report we get/see is news of PbCs purchased for the one or more additional ePower vehicles. Average fuel consumption rates (mpg) on multiple vehicles in commercial service would carry greater weight with potential ePower clients than would mpg data on a single vehicle.
    9 Apr 2013, 10:41 PM Reply Like
  • mrh - There have been multiple challenges for serial hybrids - kw/kg, kw/l, thermal control, charge acceptance, cycle life, safety, round trip efficiency, cost, etc. I don't know whether the PbC adequately overcomes these challenges; I do hope so.
    10 Apr 2013, 07:14 AM Reply Like
  • Evidence of the (fuel economy) advantage of a series hybrid on a slow flat route.
    These 116 passenger buses have logged 5 million miles powered by 70-horsepower, 2.5-liter, four-cylinder, Ford engines running at a constant 2200 rpm. Thats combined with lead-acid batteries.
    10 Apr 2013, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • D - Not sure if the article is good news or not. They are reporting that the existing fleet is being retired, and replaced with buses with Capstone turbines and lithium batteries. I did not see any reference to lead batteries in the article - is there another source?


    Also, did not see any numbers showing efficiency, improvement, etc. Is there any evidence of fuel economy? Is this bus fleet a stunt, or actually a good thing? The 5 million fleet miles over 34 vehicles is just 147,000 miles each - not a particularly big number for a commercial bus to be retired.
    10 Apr 2013, 11:36 AM Reply Like
  • Rick, great questions and it is fun to look for answers!


    Here is the source regarding lead-acid batteries.
    Unfortunately the next generation of this bus is going with lithium ion.


    Its a very unique fleet. I am unaware of any other quite like it.
    147,000 miles each is very low--perhaps because they travel slowly on a mall.


    Fuel economy numbers are available via They are listed in CNG speak: .70 M/lb on a Central Business District course. In comparison, a regular 40 foot transit bus which carries a max of 83 people returned .51 M/lb on the same course, 4 years later (1999 vs. 2003)
    10 Apr 2013, 12:14 PM Reply Like
  • DL, that tells me the led acid batteries failed just like SS does in autos.
    Would be nice to fit a couple with PbC and see what happens.
    10 Apr 2013, 12:22 PM Reply Like
  • LT, I hear you. Seems little doubt that the PbC would offer improved performance here.


    However, this lead-acid CNG hybrid bus was a very very limited production thing and has not been made for years. They had trouble finding any kind of bus maker who could make a custom replacement. The one they found is working with lithium ion and a microturbine. That leaves us with ePower and NSC for the moment.
    10 Apr 2013, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • 04/09/2013: EOD stuff partially copied from instablog (up later).
    # Trds: 35, MinTrSz: 741, MaxTrSz: 25000, Vol 217371, AvTrSz: 6211
    Min. Pr: 0.2611, Max Pr: 0.2725, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2647
    # Buys, Shares: 18 85871, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.2672
    # Sells, Shares: 17 131500, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2631
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 1:1.53 (39.5% “buys”), DlyShts 12500 (05.75%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 9.51%


    Just want to note that average trade size continues in its uptrend, as I mentioned couple days back. Today end in the mid-high side of what I believe to be “retail”. This is more easily discernible on my charts – been moving that way since 3/11. It's not been a really reliable predictor of action going forward, but if you peek at my one-year snapshot here,
    you'll see that our grind up that began last November was accompanied by an improvement in this metric. Not strongly correlated with prior behavior though.


    We've now been in this price range long enough that my original inflection point calculations are beginning to show a reduction in the rate of weakening. My newer version indicates this even more strongly.


    With VWAP essentially flat the last seven days - $0.2707, $0.2610, $0.2669, $0.2655, $0.2653, $0.2620 and $0.2647 - it's tempting to think we've bottomed. But I'm cautious on that because our determined sellers seem to have an unlimited supply of shares they consider worth much less than current market price.


    There's other points that are improving, but we don't know yet if they are a trend or one-day aberrations.


    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.


    9 Apr 2013, 05:47 PM Reply Like
  • For an old board conversation.


    Zhongding Power to invest more than $200M to build EcoMotors opoc plant in China


    "Zhongding Power and EcoMotors have entered an agreement for the production of the opoc (opposed-piston, opposed cylinder) engine (earlier post). One of the largest automotive component conglomerates in China, Zhongding will finance and construct the first opoc plant in the Anhui Province. "


    9 Apr 2013, 07:41 PM Reply Like
  • That GCC article makes the opoc engine sound more than a little impressive. It is hard to believe, though, that something with as much potential as suggested by the article has not gotten enough attention from U.S. military and industrial concerns to produce the engine here.
    9 Apr 2013, 10:57 PM Reply Like
  • "It is hard to believe, though, that something with as much potential as suggested by the article has not gotten enough attention from U.S. military and industrial concerns to produce the engine here. "


    I agree D-INV,
    When it sounds to good to be true... This new engine company, located in Michigan, just teamed up with the Chinese to build a factory. No one in say "Detroit" would want anything to do with a smaller, lighter, more powerful, more efficient engine.


    ( please note the sarcasm font was used throughout)
    10 Apr 2013, 06:32 AM Reply Like
  • I know some guys working also working on a opposed piston two cycle engine. They really do potentially have huge benefits. I was working with them for an NH3 /multi-fuel engine.


    One challenge with the Ecomotor concept is an unusual shape that won't fit into standard engine compartments.


    Sad how the USA can't fund or make something boring like engines any more, and that they had to go to China. US financiers want Facebook-like crud. Perhaps we can "friend" and "social network" the new engine....
    10 Apr 2013, 07:24 AM Reply Like
  • Rick,
    Perhaps it is just the business spirit in me, but I can't believe the American car companies would just let a new concept or design be swept overseas, without first testing the idea. If our large businesses are waiting for small innovators to show them the way they will be disappointed. Foreign money is still survival money to a small enterprise.
    10 Apr 2013, 07:54 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist, I used to agree with you. Unfortunately, I have had several unsatisfactory personal experiences with major US companies and their senior executives regarding new technologies.
    10 Apr 2013, 09:07 AM Reply Like
  • Rick, A big ole thumbs up for your post regarding the US and what it's markets support. Who wants a boring ole more efficient engine? I've got my money on Angry Birds version 101!


    I think this was the area we were talking about at some point awhile ago. Yep, The British military is testing it while the Chinese are tooling a US design. I sense some rectal sight seeing is going on.


    UK Defense Ministry Testing Opposed Piston Engine Concept

    10 Apr 2013, 09:21 AM Reply Like
  • The OPOC engine has been in development for years and was conceived decades ago in Germany by the current CEO who was formally with VolksWagon. The main problem they needed to overcome was the same as with any two cycle engine, oil contamination of the combustion gas causing high emissions. Since the pistons travel past ports where the intake air comes in, microscopic amounts of the oil used to lubricate the piston rings spray into the intake air just before it comes into the cylinder. This oil spray causes dirty combustion. EcoMotors and another good competitor, Achates Power, both claim to have solved the problem with better timing of fuel injection. EcoMotors is partly funded by Bill Gayes. Achates Power has funding from the Walton family of Walmart. A third opposed piston company, Pinnacle Engines, uses four cycle firing and sleeve valves. Pinnacle has no emission issues, consequently, but they cost more to produce. The compact engine architecture of EcoMotors makes for a lightweight and cheap engine to build. Shame the factory is in China but the design and company are likely to do well, in my opinion.
    10 Apr 2013, 10:10 AM Reply Like
  • You have to ask yourselves why 'boring' things like engines struggle for funding whereas treat-of-the-week software is pelted with dollars.


    I don't believe it's an issue with American culture as innovation and the entrepreneurial spirit still seem strong.


    I think it's something else.


    Perhaps something within the natural culture of large corporations coupled with the preferential legislative and regulatory treatment
    corporations have bought for themselves.


    Nothing changes without campaign finance reform, IMHO.


    10 Apr 2013, 01:12 PM Reply Like
  • Making something boring that's remarkably better than the legacy technology is an immense amount of work. December will mark a decade for me and the PbC. It took far longer than I expected and indications are that the technology will be far more valuable than I expected. It's still a long tough row to hoe in an investment world that wants a 24 to 36 month period from entry to exit.
    10 Apr 2013, 01:23 PM Reply Like
  • I trace many business outcomes back to human talent flows. Where are the best and brightest going? For years, they have been flowing mostly to "tech" (and to a lesser extent, finance/investments, at least previously, and parts of healthcare). If you're young, smart and ambitious, you don't go to a smokestack industry. You go to Silicon Valley. Where the most change is happening and therefore the biggest opportunities. In software especially, a good idea, some excellent developers, a small budget and a garage are all it can take to make you a billionaire by 30.


    If you're US smokestack, you can't compete with THAT.
    10 Apr 2013, 01:32 PM Reply Like
  • Mr I> A distressing number of the "best and brightest" were going to Wall Street to get rich quick. Think that's improved a bit, but if the market keeps going gangbusters ... they might come back in force.
    10 Apr 2013, 01:39 PM Reply Like
  • I think I'm a microcosm of that. When I first went to college I wanted to be a microbiologist. After I realized it would take seemingly forever to invent a new shade of grey, I switched to finance/investments and never looked back. I'm fortunate to have a lot of ambitious and smart friends, and almost to a person, they got sucked up into the finance/investments, tech or healthcare jobs machines.


    One can argue the merit of those movements, but one can't deny their power. So to me, it's not at all a surprise that other industries continue to evolve slowly. All comes down to the talent available. And the best are going to go where they perceive the opportunities to be the greatest.


    China may be the best place to be for smokestack stuff as they modernize, but eventually, they'll have the same situation as we have.
    10 Apr 2013, 01:58 PM Reply Like
  • There was an innovative engine design found in the trash in the book Atlas Shrugged.. sometimes I shudder to think the US of A is headed in that direction.
    10 Apr 2013, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • Live and learn department


    "Yes, the large square grill at rear of unit, indicates Dynamics!"
    [Locomotive Braking]



    Railroad: Dallas, Garland & Northeastern
    Make: Railpower Technologies
    Model: RP20BD



    - Tier 3
    - Equipped with dynamic brake
    - Painted G&W orange/black/yellow
    - 275,000 lbs
    9 Apr 2013, 07:55 PM Reply Like
  • >wtblanchard ... I like this new paint better than the original DGNO



    I wonder how soon I'll see it rolling around town.
    9 Apr 2013, 08:08 PM Reply Like
  • Emerald Technology Partners and EnerDel Sign Strategic MOU to Provide Lithium-ion Power Cells for Emerald’s WedWay Zero-Emission Refrigeration Power System



    “Emerald Technology Partners has developed impressive technology that converts the kinetic energy captured from a semi-trailer’s wheel rotation into power,” stated EnerDel CEO David Roberts. “The power is stored for use via EnerDel’s lithium-ion battery system, which serves as the power source to operate the refrigeration or freezer unit inside a semi-trailer while stationary
    9 Apr 2013, 08:40 PM Reply Like
  • See also:


    Florida Transportation Company Announces Industry First Fuel-Free, Emission-Free Refrigeration Power



    "March 29, 2013 – Caspers Company and Emerald Technology Partners have partnered to release the first all-electric kinetic-energy powered semi-trailer refrigeration system to the global transportation industry. The companies have announced that the Wedway Refrigeration Power system, developed by Emerald Technology Partners, was placed into service in January 2013 and has been successfully tested with Caspers Company in the Tampa Bay area"
    9 Apr 2013, 09:19 PM Reply Like
  • wtb - Sorta interesting, but I doubt it will fly. Reefers are powered by tax-free diesel. Adding drag to the reefer's wheels will increase taxable fuel consumption. I question whether there will be much actual weight "saved" net of the batteries and charging equipment.


    I would really hate to have a reefer full of perishables in Florida that gets stuck (no tractor) for a day or two, and all that food goes bad. Not everyplace has a convenient 120 v plug, especially if you don't have a 100 foot extension cord.


    If power was readily available, reefers today would plug in at truck stops, etc. AFAIK, none do.
    9 Apr 2013, 09:47 PM Reply Like
  • Yikes, require a 240 volt connection! They are sooooo common at truck stops.....


    The really silly part of this is they are trying in Florida, which is very hot and flat. If the kinetic system was capturing braking energy, say Colorado, and the climate was often cold, say Colorado, it might work.


    Snark aside, thank you wtb for interesting ideas.
    9 Apr 2013, 09:51 PM Reply Like
  • Interesting thought. They invented a reefer truck that will not be refrigerated. HMMM. Are all ideas this good?
    9 Apr 2013, 09:58 PM Reply Like
  • Hi, Good News:


    Analysis: Rethinking the lithium-ion battery revolution over cost, safety;_ylt=AkNRp7sXHKBBp_T7...


    10 Apr 2013, 02:17 AM Reply Like
  • Amazing how completely unaware most of the people in the article seem to be about all the advances that are taking place in lithium battery chemistry.
    10 Apr 2013, 08:44 PM Reply Like
  • "But other companies are looking beyond the technology. Toyota, for example, has tasked one team of battery engineers to explore a range of alternatives to lithium-ion."


    Yeah, those noobs at Toyota have never had an idea of what they're doing...


    given other clues we've had, It's not at all hard to imagine that PbC found itself somewhere in that range of alternatives...
    10 Apr 2013, 09:00 PM Reply Like
  • 48, I hope you're saying that T is not one to watch. They have defined top level full scale automotive for a little while now. Perfect no, but they hold some nice cards.
    11 Apr 2013, 12:00 AM Reply Like
  • Yeah those Noobs at Greecar Reports aren't paying attention either.


    Cheaper Electric-Car Batteries: Slow & Steady Wins The Race


    <The post cites a recent National Academy of Sciences study, which concludes: "Scientists and battery experts, who have been optimistic in the recent past about improving lithium-ion batteries and about developing new battery chemistries—lithium/air and lithium/sulfur are the leading candidates—are considerably less optimistic now."
    We haven't seen quite such pessimism in our interviews with battery experts, both from cell fabrication companies and automakers.
    Instead, there's a broad consensus that electric-car batteries of any given chemistry will make slow, incremental improvements in performance from minor improvements to their chemistry and better manufacturing techniques....
    ...So with battery prices falling--slowly but steadily--and conventional cars getting more expensive, there's likely to come a tipping point for electric-car adoption.
    It won't be this year, or next year, or even 2015. But around 2020, things should get pretty interesting.>


    Hopium springs eternal.
    11 Apr 2013, 12:03 AM Reply Like
  • pardon all, I left the sarc font off... but I was just marveling at what amateurs Toyota must employ to be so ignorant of all those li-ion advances taking place. Clearly they just haven't been talking to the right people. I mean we even have one here. Sheesh, what a bunch of provincial maroons...


    Oh well, Musk'll teach 'em.
    11 Apr 2013, 12:41 AM Reply Like
  • It does highlight the fundamental strength of the mythology. I keep telling readers that batteries will progress slowly but steadily and the major gains in energy density and cost that the unwashed masses think of as "just around the corner" are a decade or two from reality. The response is always the same – that I just don't understand how technology progresses. Today the truth is migrating from places like my work into the mainstream but the true believer's answer remains unchanged "Toyota and all those other morons don't understand how technology progresses."
    11 Apr 2013, 07:17 AM Reply Like
  • Apparently no one seems to understand that Toyota has billions invested in it's hybrid designs that affordable longer range EV's would destroy. You bet they want to "wait" until 2020 so they can keep selling the hybrids for as long as possible.
    11 Apr 2013, 09:17 AM Reply Like
  • Sorry jrp3,
    That business logic doesn't cut it. They invented the new way to sell automobiles. Give the public great,safe, well built automobiles at a fair price. Ever increasing technology and good value. Toyota would close down the hybrid line if an EV were a better product.
    11 Apr 2013, 08:19 PM Reply Like
  • They will eventually, but if they brought out an all electric Prius tomorrow it would steal sales from their existing hybrid lines, which they spent billions developing. A full EV Prius could be the most efficient EV to date and get great range from existing packs, and Toyota could price it competitively, yet they choose not to.
    12 Apr 2013, 09:40 AM Reply Like
  • OK,
    You say they will run the best car company in the world one way. I say a different way. Doubt either of us will ever be the CEO and get to decide.
    12 Apr 2013, 03:38 PM Reply Like
  • I suspect Toyota would prefer to make money; than price it competitively.
    Silly them.
    12 Apr 2013, 06:46 PM Reply Like
  • Carlos,
    Thanks for the link. I found this interesting at the end of the article.


    ""We need, at various levels, some kind of breakthrough so we can make this technology more robust and safe," added Chalasani, who declined to specifically discuss his time at Boeing.
    Chalasani is not working on that lithium-ion breakthrough. He's working at East Penn Manufacturing Co on advanced lead-acid batteries."
    10 Apr 2013, 06:39 AM Reply Like
  • When I met Subbas in Istanbul during ELBC 2010, he was working as head of R&D for Exide Industries (India). By ELBC 2012, he'd moved to East Penn. Subbas is the fellow who told me batteries are a grudge purchase.
    10 Apr 2013, 07:02 AM Reply Like
  • Carlos, gracias! That article certainly reads like a confirmation of a lot of things people here have been saying for months or years.


    "We don't think that lithium-ion batteries are going to help us get to a point where we can dramatically increase volume and really call it a mass market," Toyota spokesman John Hanson said. "We're going to have a more significant breakthrough and probably go into some other area of battery chemistry." . . .
    10 Apr 2013, 09:18 AM Reply Like
  • John, do you have any idea how the workforce at Axion is divided in R&D, Marketing, Production etc...?
    10 Apr 2013, 07:37 AM Reply Like
  • According to the 10-K –


    "As of December 31, 2012 we employed a staff of 80, including an 11 member scientific and engineering team, and 53 people who are involved principally in manufacturing."
    10 Apr 2013, 08:22 AM Reply Like
  • NEW CASTLE, Pa., April 10, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Axion Power International, Inc. (OTC QB: AXPW), the developer of advanced lead-carbon PbC® batteries and energy storage systems, announced its Senior Vice President of Sales and Marketing, Vani Dantam, has been invited to participate as a panel expert on energy storage, at the upcoming AGRION event in NYC.
    10 Apr 2013, 07:43 AM Reply Like
  • And here's the "Axion Power on Panel at Energy Storage Economics 2.0 for New York City and Beyond" link:



    "Dantam will be part of a roundtable that will include some of the nation's most dynamic commercial storage leaders discussing the fast-growing concerns with consumption, congestion and reliability. The economic landscape for distributed storage will be an additional focus point for the roundtable".


    And there's a little blurb about the PbC and applications.


    10 Apr 2013, 07:50 AM Reply Like
  • :-) But, but, but ... the conference is scheduled for May 9, nine days AFTER Axion's April 30 going concern "drop dead" date.
    10 Apr 2013, 09:50 AM Reply Like
  • >D-inv ... Axion doesn't "drop dead" on April 30. Best I can figure is it goes into hyper-austerity mode on that date. Call it a "run-out" which can go on for quite some time. If you're looking for a realistic "drop dead" date, I can't help you there very much. I'm guessing mid-summer and I'm not planning on it happening. I'll leave that to others.


    I am deeply disappointed with management allowing things to come right down to the wire. This is OK for a R&D company to do, but we now own, according to Mr. Granville in the last CC, an immature (emerging) commercial entity instead. If we are now supposed to evaluate Axion's performance as a commercial entity (sales, margin & balance sheet performance), this round of finance is, pardon the pun, a "Train Wreck". Can't possibly build confidence in potential customers that might forestall a purchase for the seeming inability to conduct business into the future.


    I've been quite happy with Axion as a R&D company and judging performance on that basis. This new metric ... I don't agree with Mr. Granville but I have to defer to his view. I don't know the inside story & reasoning, but am still hoping for the rabbit to be pulled from the hat.
    10 Apr 2013, 10:18 AM Reply Like
  • DRich, Good points and well said.
    10 Apr 2013, 10:25 AM Reply Like
  • I have to agree that the financing should not have been delayed this long because the uncertainty is weighing heavy on stockholders minds. I can understand pushing for the best possible pricing and even bluffing if you have a strong hand, but enough is enough.
    10 Apr 2013, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • Bullwinkle: "I've got to get another hat".



    10 Apr 2013, 10:51 AM Reply Like
  • John, Especially in this environment. Plus, since many of the opportunities Axion is looking at are outside of TG's control relative to announcing progress, well let's just say short fuses and precise timing.


    All I can say is either TG has something BIG that's so close he can taste it or we're in deep do do. I refuse to believe it's the latter based on the technology, the strength and depth of the partnerships and the various other market opportunities. Plus money is shifting into this sector and the lithium ion guys are in reality rehab.


    I'm holding my cards for the flop. I think I saw a tell but I'm twitching a little as well!


    HTL, I remembered "Don't know my own strength." :))
    10 Apr 2013, 11:17 AM Reply Like
  • You see John even you are getting frustrated :))))


    I think most people here have had a soul trying experience holding AXPW for the past 2 years. Today I was reading the article "against all odds" which explained the pain that management had gone through to make the PbC technology a viable commercial project and it gave me even more determination that Axion will be something big real soon!
    10 Apr 2013, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • :-) DR > I did put on a smiley face before tossing my jest. The "going concern" flag pretty clearly indicates that Axion can not continue operating AS IT HAS BEEN without new resources. It says nothing about how long the company can survive with a different mix of operations and staffing levels.


    I will not be surprised if developments on the financing front are deferred until first quarter financial performance data are available and, possibly, after reports of NS999 moving under its own power "in the wild".
    10 Apr 2013, 11:31 AM Reply Like
  • I'm not getting frustrated Amouna, but I am distressed by the high levels of anxiety and frustration I read in the Concentrators.


    I've been through this drill with Axion more times than I want to count over the last decade and if they ever put up a Wall of Fame with pictures of the men that saved Axion's bacon at one point or another I'd feel lost in the crowd.


    For the past couple months I've believed it would be easier on the Axionistas to just get a deal done and eliminate the worry even if management didn't like the pricing. I remain convinced that Granville is not a "worried man."


    He hasn't shown his cards yet but I've known Tom long enough to be convinced that he likes his hand.
    10 Apr 2013, 11:37 AM Reply Like
  • Rabbit named SBIR?


    DOE awards $150K SBIR Phase I grant to Axion Power to fund commercialization plan for PbC batteries in micro-hybrid vehicles
    23 May 2012



    "Axion Power was one of 75 companies out of a total of 764 applicants to earn an award in the first phase of the DOE's program. Grant funding is expected to be available to Axion Power by late June of this year and Phase I will conclude 10 months from that date. According to DOE documents, Phase II awards will be granted to approximately 50% of Phase I awardees and will conclude in 12-15 months. Phase III will follow shortly thereafter."


    You are here: SC Home » Programs » SBIR/STTR Home
    10 Apr 2013, 11:40 AM Reply Like
  • Thats very reassuring to hear. In the event where a financing of say - 10 or 15 million- is closed, what would be the catalyst that would propel the pps much higher? It is nice to think that retail investors who have seen the worst will stick around to truly enjoy the ride, but retail investors have small pockets compared to institutionals.
    10 Apr 2013, 11:40 AM Reply Like
  • SBIR Phase II buys a little time to make a better deal if it happens.


    Not the $$ most people want to see to get the worry off the table for a while (if that's possible!)
    10 Apr 2013, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • WTB> A Phase II SBIR grant would be a nice $1 million feather in Axion's cap, but it wouldn't be a company builder.


    "The objective of Phase II is to continue the R/R&D efforts initiated in Phase I. Funding is based on the results achieved in Phase I and the scientific and technical merit and commercial potential of the project proposed in Phase II. Only Phase I awardees are eligible for a Phase II award. SBIR Phase II awards normally do not exceed $1,000,000 total costs for 2 years."



    Amouna> As of today everybody assumes that none of Axion's testing and validation programs will be successful or, if successful, that they'll result in significant PbC orders. For better or worse that's just the nature of the beast when the R&D is done and it's time to start selling product.


    The clearest catalyst I can imagine would be Customer #1 who plans to implement a PbC solution rather than test a PbC solution. A stealth catalyst would be landing a strategic investment from an end-user or industrial partner who wants a toe-hold in the space or a preferred place in the customer queue.


    In my experience small public companies must start with a predominately retail stockholder base, preferably a well-educated and patient base that knows what it bought and why. Until the base is in place, the stock can't perform. Once the base is established and comfortable with its investment, wonderful things can happen and eventually the institutions will come in and buy the stock away from retail.
    10 Apr 2013, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • WTB,
    From the 10K:
    "In May of 2012, we were awarded a $150,000 Phase I grant from the U.S. Department of Energy to fund a commercialization plan for the use of its PbC batteries in a "low-cost, high-efficiency" dual battery architecture for micro-hybrid vehicles. We completed a substantial amount of work on this program in 2012 and successfully completed review of that work and of our overall program. We plan on applying for Phase II early in the 2nd quarter of 2013...In December of 2012, Axion invoiced and received payment for $74,878 from this grant."


    Since Axion has only billed 50% of the funds for the phase I part of the project, and weren't planning on applying for phase II until the second quarter of this year, I doubt that the SBIR grant will be the rabbit we are hoping for.
    10 Apr 2013, 12:53 PM Reply Like
  • >D-inv ... I saw that and figured it was "comic relief". I just find no humor in Axion's current situation.


    The Axion of yore is over. Mr. Granville has decided to redefine the company and how we should evaluate it.


    "We have made reference to Axion moving out of the 'development stage company' status into real commercialization. One real evidence of that transition was ... shipment ... to Norfolk Southern ... That shipment .... underscores our emergence as a commercial entity, and our need in accordance with SEC accounting standards to move away from the 'development stage' characterization."
    [Tom Granville Q4 2012 Conference Call]


    The company does continue to do things that suggest a future (renewed leases, employment contracts, ongoing application testing and such) which is all-well-&-good. Judging only facts as I know them related to the PbC and our new measuring metric, I, personally, think this is a "bone headed" statement to make. There is no reported evidence of a "strategic" investor, no known customers with recurring sales and soon to be no cash to move forward with. Something is wrong with this commercial entity. and it could be as simple as The Company just doesn't want to talk to The Market.


    I know Mr. Petersen has been down this road with Axion many times before but that was with a development company focused on the product & production technology. Mr. Granville has moved us out of that category. Time has come to perform and be evaluated thus.


    I'm done for now being "Debbie Downer" and will wait to see if this is the end of first act in this play or not.
    10 Apr 2013, 01:16 PM Reply Like
  • Re: "I can understand pushing for the best possible pricing and even bluffing if you have a strong hand"


    I sure hope that's what TG is doing. Otherwise I followed the wrong rabbit down the hole. =)
    11 Apr 2013, 03:22 AM Reply Like
  • Bazooooka: Caveat: I tend to be optimistic. But I've developed a feeling over the last few days that something really big is going on. Might be inferences from inventory, employment contracts, knowing capital is needed and no announcement, talk of "mature" RFPs, "commercial entity", ...


    I can't shake the feeling as I watch pps tick ever lower. It's the perfect market set up - everybody bails and then the big news hits.


    xxx <-- fingers crossed (partly to avoid buying more in case I'm wrong - poor typing even worse with crossed fingers! :-).


    11 Apr 2013, 05:56 AM Reply Like
  • "It's the perfect market set up - everybody bails and then the big news hits."


    :-) I've thought that the best birthday gift I could give all you April B-Day axionistas would be to capitulate and sell all my shares. I know in my bones that as soon as I do the price rocket will fly right by the moon on its way to Jupiter.
    11 Apr 2013, 09:49 AM Reply Like
  • H.T.L: That's sums up my thinking recently as well. Something big is going on... it's too damn quiet.
    11 Apr 2013, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • nice PR but let's get on with the financing to project a clear path towards profitability :)
    10 Apr 2013, 07:46 AM Reply Like
  • I was looking for a financing or sales pr.



    I did find the focus of this statement in line with TG's last CC about the multiple requests for powercube proposals.


    While much of the public discussion regarding batteries focuses on transportation, that is just one of the markets Axion Power's batteries address. The PbC battery is also uniquely suited for renewable storage applications, such as wind and solar, and to the needs of electric utilities - providing opportunities for frequency regulation, power quality, power smoothing and potential peak power shaving. In December of 2011, the Company commissioned a .5MW PowerCube into the PJM network. This asset provides revenue-generating demand response and frequency regulation contributions directly to PJM on a daily basis.
    10 Apr 2013, 07:52 AM Reply Like
  • "providing opportunities for frequency regulation, power quality, power smoothing and potential peak power shaving"


    From what I understand, FR is an active market, the others maybe not so much. But anticipated as significant markets in the near future? You bet.
    10 Apr 2013, 09:51 AM Reply Like
  • Hot off the presses--looks like CSA performed the UL1741 testing for the residential Hub, and indeed the certificate holder is Axion, not Rosewater. My previously noted concerns about testing and UL announcements have been retired. Woohoo!!


    Interesting to me is Note 2--I didn't realize that the Hub had to be installed outside.



    If that link doesn't work, just type "Axion Power" in the customer name field at this link:

    10 Apr 2013, 09:26 AM Reply Like
  • There is no "has to be installed outside", just when you do you have to use approved fittings.
    10 Apr 2013, 10:04 AM Reply Like
  • MitchS,


    "The listed inverters are evaluated for Type 3R, Rainproof, enclosure for outdoor applications when equipped with suitable rain tight or wet location conduit hubs that are installed as per instructions in the inverter’s manual and are in compliance with the local codes"


    Not sure that the statement means that the Hub "has" to be installed outside. I read it more to mean that it "can" be installed outdoors and was evaluated for that ability.
    10 Apr 2013, 10:13 AM Reply Like
  • growsmart, LabTech,


    Your interpretations could be right, as the RoseWater brochure does state Indoor or NEMA 3R.


    I mentioned that note because I envisioned how convenient it would be to have the Hub in the basement or garage--out of sight and easy to service/access.



    10 Apr 2013, 10:32 AM Reply Like
  • Mitch, in most places, it is even easier to have a serviceman do it outside. Outside you do not have to waste garage space.
    10 Apr 2013, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • Rick,
    Fair enough. I just don't like landscaping and would prefer not to have to plant shrubs or install a fence around the unit.


    Regardless, I'm just excited because the approval is an independent validation of the design and is a huge stepping stone to the PowerCube/FR market, which I think is the ultimate goal.


    10 Apr 2013, 12:14 PM Reply Like
  • Another simulation. But under a year payback. Meh! We got Fisker. :(


    Norway: DNV, Grieg Star Present Green Shipping Innovation


    "Battery hybrid ships are believed to be an alternative energy system mix for the shipping of tomorrow. Recent results of a joint DNV and Grieg Star hybrid ship crane project show less than a year’s payback time and fuel savings of 30 % – and that you should get your battery on board sooner rather than later."

    10 Apr 2013, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • ii, thats very cool!


    Will the weight of the PbC (vs. l-ion) be a large negative here?
    10 Apr 2013, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • I'd think that weight and volume would be non-issues, but the better cycling characteristics of the PbC could be a big advantage.
    10 Apr 2013, 12:23 PM Reply Like
  • I'm not clear on where, exactly the hybrid benefit is derived in a ship. Aren't most ships already diesel-electric? There is no braking energy to recover, so where do batteries come in other than with the cranes?
    10 Apr 2013, 01:55 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo - the benefit is in port, loading and unloading. Diesel generators provide the power. There is some regeneration when the load is lowered in to the hold. The main improvement is running a smaller generator for the cranes, as batteries can handle sudden loading.


    Big ships are usually powered by a huge, slow turning 2-cycle diesel direct coupled to the propeller - not even a transmission. To stop the prop, stop the engine. To go in reverse, run the engine in reverse. Hybrid has no benefit for a big ship for motive power.


    Smaller ships, like ferries and cruise ships, are medium speed diesels with transmissions. There are a few testing electric drive. I think Norway is testing some specialty ferries that are electric or serial electric. Very limited range, back and forth across the fjord.


    You are right, there is no regenerative "braking" on a ship.
    10 Apr 2013, 02:07 PM Reply Like
  • Hi Rick,
    The large cruise ships are now powered by electric pods, I haven't done any research as to what the total set up is. After the recent fiascos the cruise lines have had, they may be looking at some sort of back up power (engine compartment fire as an example leaving the ship dead in the water).
    10 Apr 2013, 02:39 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks, Rick!
    10 Apr 2013, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks, Rick.
    10 Apr 2013, 03:11 PM Reply Like
  • My understanding was just a few cruise ships were electric drive, with mixed results. The three articles you cited did not mention electric drive systems. When the big fire extinguisher goes off, it shuts down the propulsion engines, too. Better to be adrift than on fire. When ships lose electricity, often they cannot navigate - no power to the rudder.
    10 Apr 2013, 04:31 PM Reply Like
  • "We are turning our warships into Priuses"


    An admiral just told me that, off the record but very proud. Some of the newer ships have hybrid combination electric and mechanical drives. They use several MW of lead acid batteries for propulsion at slow speed, and for emergency power. I think the vessel is - note the 3.7MW auxiliary engines.


    I mentioned a certain Pennsylvania battery maker, and he seemed very interested. He was very, very wary of lithium. I am letting Vani know.
    12 Apr 2013, 09:51 PM Reply Like
  • let's just say the Navy has uh, already been burned a bit itself on the lithium altar..


    pax per potens
    12 Apr 2013, 09:57 PM Reply Like
  • Thanks Rick, Interesting.


    Seems they also like the extra power that the hybrid propulsion system can generate for their new weapons systems. So you can flex the power plant between supporting the drive system or some of the new weapon systems like lasers, magnetic cannons etc. This and it also allows for mission extension as the hybrid drive provides far more efficient propulsion at slower speeds.



    An older article on what they are looking to achieve.

    12 Apr 2013, 11:59 PM Reply Like
  • Rick: Great to hear. Made me wonder if they take advantage of the wave action to charge the batteries. I think it was DRich that mentioned this possibility in maritime applications? And at sea there's lots of wind available, although I can't imagine the economics and/or many potential drawbacks and technical issues of that on a fighting vessel.


    Oh well, let's hope they see some potential in the PbC for the applications and implementations they already envision.


    13 Apr 2013, 07:24 AM Reply Like
  • >H.T.Love ... The closest thing to regenerative braking at sea is using the wave action. All surface ships are subject to wave action most of the time. Even calm seas rise and fall like hills of water. This means that the propellers go through Loaded, up wave propulsion, and Unloaded, down wave (lets call it) coasting, cycles. The weight of the ship is actually accelerating the ship faster down wave than the propeller can push it. Conventional means of dealing with this condition is to vary engine speed or just waste power running constant revolutions. Very fuel inefficient.


    The idea of the all electric ship is to find the "sweet spot" for the engine to run at a constant velocity for the operational speed needed and make up any additional power required with battery power. The batteries get recharged during "coasting" periods when the primary generator is producing excess power (or scavenging the AUX units). Cycles can vary wildly from a few seconds to many minutes.


    They could really use a battery that has long cycle life, environmentally stable chemistry, fast recharge/discharge capability, tolerate deep discharge, the ability to accept large current inflows. To date they haven't found one that isn't insanely expensive. I get the feeling the Navy is not thrilled with fuelcells.


    Sorry for no links. I'm at the wrong computer.
    13 Apr 2013, 09:39 AM Reply Like
  • DRich: No links, no problem. I just recalled that you had mentioned the viability of this and wondered if the Navy was considering it. The basic concept you just described is a bit more than what I envisioned when Rick said there was no regenerative braking on ships.


    My natural contrarian nature surface(d) (there's a potential pun hidden in there - vessel) and that reminded me of your prior comments. I first thought of trying to slow a vessel by reducing drive power and how the massive tonnage would drag the prop through the water for extended periods, providing generation capability. Then I realized that was not a frequent-enough activity to provide much benefit.


    Rick's admiral friend may not be aware of the potential, although I certainly would not presume that's the case since I'm sure the navy has some real expertise in these areas.


    Anyway, good to hear your reminder and let's hope it all leads somewhere profitable to Axion, and us, down the road.


    13 Apr 2013, 10:33 AM Reply Like
  • here's another article with some amplifying info on the lead ship of the concept:

    13 Apr 2013, 11:08 AM Reply Like
  • DR, I'm thinking the wave action dynamics you describe only apply for ships with lengths on the order of the crest-to-trough distance of the waves they're in. These amphibs are over 800' in length, ie spanning several waves at once, and so I would think the effect you describe would be minimized. But standing by to be further educated...
    13 Apr 2013, 11:18 AM Reply Like
  • >H.T.Love ... Sailboats already have a "drag the prop" system for recharging batteries. There has been some experimenting with ducting water through a turbine. Neither can be called "efficient" in a mechanical sense. Both systems have been in trials on diesel powered ships that have podded props for maneuvering thrust with results I've never read about, so I concluded results are less than spectacular. The "preferred" method of energy recovery that I have read about is to monitor the propeller shaft loading.


    Remember there are 3 distinct operating environments is marine. Open sea, shallow water running/cruise & harbor which have very different profiles. Just as for rails I've thought the PbC was a great battery for most of these circumstances particularly Open Sea & harbor operations. I also think that virtually no one knows it exists and even fewer know its capability. Lithium is the experimental battery of choice because of its charge/discharge, cycle life as compared to the battery they know ... the LAB.
    13 Apr 2013, 11:24 AM Reply Like
  • Here's a video I saw a few days ago that gives some pretty good metrics on the power available on the Zumwalt class DDG-1000 destroyers. Got just a "few" megawatts of aux. power available even while it's cruising at 20 knots. Good video given the topic.

    13 Apr 2013, 11:57 AM Reply Like
  • DR,


    I find it hard to envision a mechanism that captures the energy in aquatic motion that would not create more drag when cruising than the useful energy it can capture.


    It seems like someone is trying to cheat the laws of thermodynamics.
    13 Apr 2013, 12:14 PM Reply Like
  • >SMaturin ... AND you would be right. In the case of a sailboat the propeller is going to turn anyway when not in use. The trade-off is what is more important ... using petrol to generate power to keep the batteries charged & refrigerator running or going just that little bit faster. Don't look for these on a racing yacht. The wind is your fuel.


    In the diesel ships ... well, I can't think the momentum is enough to make it economical but I know it has been tried and not just in pleasure vessels either. Like I said I've not read any glowing reports about these experiments so it is probably not a great idea.
    13 Apr 2013, 01:22 PM Reply Like
  • As an occasional sailor (my parents have a 30' sloop), I am in complete agreement with that. A little drag to not have to run the engines daily to top off the batteries, since the prop is hanging out there dragging anyway, put it to work.


    But an ocean going vessel dependent on fossil fuels needs to be as slipstreamed as possible for best efficiency.
    13 Apr 2013, 01:27 PM Reply