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  • Axion Power Concentrator 230: April 24: Axion Power On Panel At Energy Storage Economics 2.0 For New York City And Beyond 422 comments
    Apr 24, 2013 6:53 AM | about stocks: AXPW

    Latest News, Articles and Presentations...

    Axion Power on Panel at Energy Storage Economics 2.0 for New YOrk City and Beyond --

    The developer of advanced lead-carbon PbC® batteries and energy storage systems, announced its Senior Vice President of Sales and Marketing, Vani Dantam, has been invited to participate as a panel expert on energy storage, at the upcoming AGRION event in NYC.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Axion Power's CEO Discusses Q4 2012 Results - Earnings Call Transcript

    Thomas Granville CEO: "We left the designation 'development stage company' in the dust in 2012 and there's no slowdown in sight."

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Axion Power Reports Results for 2012 --

    Chairman & CEO Thomas Granville commented, "Axion continued to make important strides in the fourth quarter, making 2012 a landmark year overall. Obviously our best year ever will be the first year when PbC revenue starts to show significant growth but it was a good step in that direction that we were able to recognize the first big PbC sale in the 4th quarter, to Norfolk Southern. This coincides with our first 10K filing without "development stage company" status. With our increase in sales, and more specifically sales of our core business product, we are now recognized as a commercial entity for filing purposes.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Axion Power Completes New Continuous Roll Carbon Sheeting Process

    "This is a giant leap forward for us and allows us to make a better product at a reduced cost," said Axion Power's Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Thomas Granville. "It's the final step in automating our complete activated carbon negative electrode manufacturing process and it brings us tighter quality control, better production yields, meaningful production quantities and significant labor cost reductions..."

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Axion Power and EPower Engine Systems Inaugurate Strategic Alliance Using PbC Batteries in Hybrid Drivetrains for Class 8 Trucks

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dr. Ed Buiel, Axion's CTO until the end of 2010 -- A link to an archive of his comments on yadoodle about the PbC battery and much more. Invaluable commentary! Thanks to 481086 for putting the list together.

    Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications -- Axion completed shipping its high-performance PbC batteries to Norfolk Southern Corp. (NYSE:NS), one of North America's leading transportation providers, for use in Norfolk Southern's first all electric locomotive - the NS-999.

    Axion Power Residential Energy Storage HUB Certified to UL, CSA Standards -- Axion receives UL certification and CSA Standards for their Residential Energy Storage HUB.

    "ePower's Series Hybrid Electric Drive - Unmatched Fuel Economy for Heavy Trucks" -- by John Petersen. Discusses the potential fuel savings for ePower's Hybrid electric drive for class 8 trucks using Axion's PbC batteries.

    "Axion Power - A Battery Manufacturer Charging Forward" -- by John Petersen. This is an excellent summation on Axion Power's history. It is a good starting point for introducing Axion Power to friends and family.

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    Axion Power Weighted Moving Average Prices and Volume:

    (updated through 4/19/2013)

    (click to enlarge)

    (click to enlarge)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Axion Power Monthly Volume versus FINRA Short Percentage:

    (by John Petersen)

    In late January I wrote an Instablog about the precipitous decline in reported FINRA short sales as a percentage of total trading volume. Over the last two weeks that trend has accelerated and the percentages for the month of February and the last four weeks are solidly in single digits. I view this graph as another confirmation of seller exhaustion. The big uglies are history and it looks like everybody who really wanted to sell already has.

    John Petersen's instablog here.

    (click to enlarge)

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    Axion Power Concentrator Comments:

    Nearly to 50,000 comments!

    (click to enlarge)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Links to important Axion Power research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites, created by APC commentator Bangwhiz. It is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one, including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website. The first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

    Axion Power Intra day Statistics Tracking: HTL tracks and charts AXPW's intra-day statistics.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    WARNING: This is a troll free zone. We reserve the right to eliminate posts, or posters that are disruptive.

    Enjoy!

    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

Back To Axion Power Host's Instablog HomePage »

Instablogs are blogs which are instantly set up and networked within the Seeking Alpha community. Instablog posts are not selected, edited or screened by Seeking Alpha editors, in contrast to contributors' articles.

Comments (422)
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  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1826) | Send Message
     
    Me
    24 Apr 2013, 07:00 AM Reply Like
  • D. McHattie
    , contributor
    Comments (1826) | Send Message
     
    I would like to thank the academy, my parents...
    24 Apr 2013, 07:02 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    shaddup. we don't like you, we really don't like you! ;)
    24 Apr 2013, 02:44 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    I was listening for the music to play him off after he started running to long and throwing the Oscar producer's schedule into the can. :-))

     

    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 02:48 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    I was listening for the music to play him off after he started running too long and throwing the Oscar producer's schedule into the can. :-))

     

    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 02:48 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    HTL, You can say that again!

     

    That being said, I thought SA had software to stop the ability to double post an identical message.
    24 Apr 2013, 02:52 PM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (673) | Send Message
     
    ii,
    He changed his misuse of the preposition "to" to the adverb "too."
    24 Apr 2013, 03:30 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: I got one of those errors when I hit the first reply. A quick ctl-f5, report, it didn't appear, so I reentered it and then correct "to"-->"too".

     

    I think I successfully navigated the maze of getting through SA's error labyrinth and confused it in the process! :-))

     

    Let's hope this one goes through on first try!

     

    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 03:35 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2097) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/15HCg8D
    24 Apr 2013, 03:44 PM Reply Like
  • Fancy Pants
    , contributor
    Comments (33) | Send Message
     
    Dos!
    24 Apr 2013, 07:21 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2128) | Send Message
     
    Congrats to this weeks winner
    24 Apr 2013, 07:36 AM Reply Like
  • Alphameister
    , contributor
    Comments (1431) | Send Message
     
    Edging JP for Miss Congeniality ;)
    24 Apr 2013, 07:42 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/15K1Zgm
    24 Apr 2013, 08:01 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    04/23/2013: EOD stuff partially copied from instablog (up already).
    # Trds: 23, MinTrSz: 150, MaxTrSz: 9300, Vol 70533, AvTrSz: 3067
    Min. Pr: 0.2401, Max Pr: 0.2500, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2484
    # Buys, Shares: 18 53533, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.2499
    # Sells, Shares: 5 17000, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2437
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 3.15:1 (75.9% “buys”), DlyShts 833 (01.18%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 4.90%

     

    Average trade size dropped to the very lower end of what I think is retail today, but after the price and volume action of the prior two days, I wouldn't consider this a break in the generally rising trend ... yet. This seems reasonable, too, in light of what I think is relatively good price and buy:sell action after the step down we just came through.

     

    I also see support in the movement of the bids and asks throughout the day. Yes, the trades were few and the volume was low, but the tendency looked quite positive to me. Of the ten changes in bids that I caught from pre-market (8:02) to the close, seven were increases in the bid and three were down (keep in mind that at the close many bids are withdrawn and lower bid are exposed – maybe two reduced instances would be a better number). The asks were really very stable today. Only three changes were noted in the same period, with one an increase in ask price, one a decrease and one unchanged.

     

    Buy:sell has made enough of a recovery over the last three days such that the 10 and 25-day buy percentage averages have begun to show improvement. Of course, those values were so low and far out of trend that we shouldn't start doing any handsprings yet. Small improvement have out-sized effects under these conditions.

     

    If this sort of behavior in the bids and asks continues, and the buy:sell stays in more normal ranges, I think we can look forward to some price increase. However, I would not make that judgment on one day's action and low number of trades and volume, especially since my newer inflection point calculations began formation of a pattern yesterday that, if it continues, suggested “flat” action in the past. I think today is just a start of some consolidation. But it's still positive compared to what we've been seeing. The key will be the action as we exit it, of course. And there's a possibility we won't exit it until some announcement from Axion appears. In light of recent action, having the fire doors locked may be a really good thing.

     

    My original inflection point calculations, as we could expect from the above, has the three shortest periods indicating a reduction in weakness while the longer ones just go “ho-hum – keep on keepin' on”. The newer version, as mentioned, shows the same and continues a pattern formation that has suggested flat action in the past.

     

    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 08:25 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    How do the excess "finished goods" from 2012 fit into our April 30th end of runway? Could the inventory have been sold and we are looking at April 30th while the folks at Axion are looking a little further out?
    24 Apr 2013, 10:20 AM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (797) | Send Message
     
    They may have shipped the finished goods and recorded the sale and revenue in the first quarter but I am wondering if the monies are still sitting in the accounts receivable column?
    24 Apr 2013, 10:27 AM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (871) | Send Message
     
    Only 6 more days until doomsday and still no news of financing. I know people here think they can continue operating beyond that, but I can only go buy what they said in their SEC filings, and that was that they have enough cash to operate through April 30. I therefore have to assume they start cutting back on staff and other drastic actions after that. The fact that they are hiring one entry-level sales person is of no consolation. I'm hanging in there, but this is NOT fun anymore. Just give us some damned news!
    24 Apr 2013, 10:33 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    NGS: Don't forget that they do have revenues come in from the toll manufacturing contract. Some A/R would've converted to cash even under 90-day terms, which is probably longer than the terms they have (my guess only).

     

    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 10:37 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    nogoodslacker,

     

    I know this dearth of news is not doing existing shareholders any more good. While I empathize with your frustration (I am a bit concerned too to tell the truth), I DO trust in management's ability to get us through this. They have done it before when their prospects were way dimmer, they can do it now!

     

    Keep faith and...relax :)
    24 Apr 2013, 10:37 AM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (871) | Send Message
     
    HTL, I would assume they considered that revenue stream when they came up with the April 30 date. I just can't imagine why any management team would let it go down to the wire like this unless it was simply that they do not have any favorable financing lined up. The closer to April 30 we get, the more of a haircut I figure we are in for. I sincerely hope I am wrong and everything turns out fine.
    24 Apr 2013, 10:41 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >nogoodslacker ... Like I've said before, I don't think for a minute that Axion will go the way of the doo-doo, but it could very well be that austerity measures will set in. Sadly, it could be sometime in June (hopefully sooner) before we hear anything official.

     

    My bone to pick is what kind of public image does this project to the potential buyers. The product may be wonderful but the public perception that the company is teetering on the brink. Why would anyone decide to choose a PbC as a critical system component. I do hope NSC, ePower, BMW and other current customers have received assurances that we shareholders have not.
    24 Apr 2013, 10:47 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2165) | Send Message
     
    ngs - There is no evil witch that automatically puts a black spell at midnight of April 30, and everything freezes and stops. April 30th is the conservative warning date mandated by SEC reporting. If something happens May 1 or May 31, you had been warned. Or nothing bad happens at all.

     

    Assuming they have paid the utility bill, some (many) things will continue. Do you really think TG, Vani, Enders, et.al, would just stop and go "on strike"? Even if they hadn't paid their utility bill, that ginormous solar tree could keep a few (very few) things operating.
    24 Apr 2013, 10:54 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    DRich, you hit it spot on! The product is without a doubt great and has many potential markets, but so far the PR of the company is a disaster, and I believe it massively impacted the stock price performance during the past few years. At the same time, I am pretty sure Axion has had its hands tied down by so many NDAs from its prospective customers due to the nature of the business itself, that it was virtually impossible for management to air out more "details" than they have done without infringing on those NDAs.
    24 Apr 2013, 10:55 AM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (871) | Send Message
     
    I've been burned too many times by taking a rosier outlook than what a company explicitly states in its filings. No, I don't expect things will just stop on April 30, but I do think they may need to drastically reduce expenditures by cutting R&D and laying off anyone not directly involved in sales. Let's hope for some news of financing or significant sales revenue in the next couple of days and all this will turn out to be a bad dream. I'm done ranting for now, lest someone accuse me of being a troll.
    24 Apr 2013, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    NGS: I'm unsure if they can consider A/R in that forecast. It *does* carry a risk of non-payment.

     

    Regardless of the rules, if I were issuing such a warning I wouldn't include any potential revenues that were at risk for any reason. If the worst happened, ISTM, that would expose one to investor lawsuits.

     

    MHO, and in ignorance,
    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 11:08 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Amouna: "... impossible for management to air out more "details" than they have done without infringing on those NDAs".

     

    LoL! Might be a blessing in disguise. Imagine if names and dates had been released and *then* we, and management, discover how slow things really progress! Would've been a *huge* negative as dates and mileposts get missed.

     

    I *guess*, I'll count my blessings in this regard! :-)

     

    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 11:11 AM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (823) | Send Message
     
    Exactly Rick.

     

    I'm not sure of lots but I'm sure that Vani would not be speaking in May if things were not ok. Also if people were worried, if there was a concern that they would shut the doors they would need to file a WARN notice with the state of PA as it would affect more than 50 people.

     

    They haven't.
    http://bit.ly/17X1hf6

     

    They have something up their sleeve and I want to know what it is.
    24 Apr 2013, 11:25 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    With the benefit of hindsight, absolutely :) !!!

     

    The one thing I really admire about them is they deliver what they promise!
    24 Apr 2013, 11:30 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    How do you see Axion's immediate future playing out if they come out tomorrow and say they got 15 million financing? Do you think it will draw much more upside to the stock price, and with it institutional buying (in the event when the stock is no longer a penny stock)?

     

    I personally don't know what to expect...
    24 Apr 2013, 11:10 AM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (797) | Send Message
     
    At this stage I am still a holder and a gambler! Since there isn't much I can do about how Axion plays its hands I have decided to go outside and the Harley a bath and go for a ride on an 80 degree sunny day in Florida! Maybe when I get back later this afternoon there will be a PR after the close of the markets that will lite Axionistaville up!
    24 Apr 2013, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Amoua
    It depends on how they got it.
    If a strategic partner say BMW buys in (Without a ton of gotchas)
    I expect the stock would do quite nicely.
    If it's regular financing at 10 cents a share not so hot.
    24 Apr 2013, 11:57 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    I don't think BMW will be the strategic investor. IMHO.

     

    Hopefully it won't be a financing at below 20cents either!
    24 Apr 2013, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Amouna
    " I don't think BMW will be the strategic investor. "
    I didn't say it would be BMW. They were just an example, Any large strategic investor would likely raise the stock price.
    24 Apr 2013, 08:33 PM Reply Like
  • Alphameister
    , contributor
    Comments (1431) | Send Message
     
    While TG's optimism has frequently been off target as far as timing is concerned, primarily because the world outside his control moves more slowly than he expects, I think he has always had good reason for his optimism. With big hitters having invested many millions in proving that the PbC is a breakthrough product, and with another ambitious customer in an industry with huge potential virtually pinning its hopes on the success of this tested and proven breakthrough battery, no great leaps of faith are required on my part to believe that the financing issue has largely been resolved except for some details and that things are on track to make AXPW a home run over the next few years. I find Metro's "rumor" to be highly plausible and can't imagine being a seller at this time and at these levels.
    24 Apr 2013, 11:15 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    Alphameister,

     

    There are investors whose patience has been tested by this long, worn out battle to introduce the PbC to mainstream markets, and these investors have mostly sold out. I realize it takes a lot of guts to stay put in the current AXPW environment. I hope we get a major turnaround real soon!

     

    With regards to TG's optimism, I think the "300% yoy growth" blunder from last year's CC did probably shake some investors'confidence in the management, but it is actually good to see him refrain from giving projections and forecasts at this point in the company's history. Time will tell!
    24 Apr 2013, 11:21 AM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (843) | Send Message
     
    "... and these investors have mostly sold out."

     

    I believe you're correct that a good number of investors have exited, but I continue to believe there are just as many, or more, that are waiting in the wings. Which is why I think a "relief rally" after the financing is a real possibility. We may all decry how the pps has slid inexorably over the past year, but I don't think anybody would deny Axion has a lot of potential to spring at any time. Of course a lot depends on the financing terms (and future sales announcements), but I think a lot of lost ground could be made up in very short order.
    24 Apr 2013, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    Thats my opinion/hope too :)
    24 Apr 2013, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • Poul Brandt
    , contributor
    Comments (271) | Send Message
     
    WIO
    Yes, financing combined with confirmation that TG still expects Axion to become cash flow positive at the end of the year will result in a rally.
    24 Apr 2013, 12:56 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (797) | Send Message
     
    While out on my ride I stumbled across a Starbucks and decided it was time for a cigar and coffee ang of course the I Pad!

     

    I have played the numerous possibilities through my head regarding the delay in financing after reading everybody's very informative postings. The possibility that I have decided to hang my hat on until the official announcement is released to prove me wrong is this:

     

    Since Axion just recently announced that they have completed the automation of their manufacturing processes I believe that the relationship with BMW can now move into the next chapter! Maybe we haven't been waiting on BMW but instead BMW has been waiting for Axion to become scalable! With this completed they can now ask a little company like JCI to hook up with Axion and start manufacturing the PbC in those new and idled AGM factories they have. Since this is no small undertaking the attornys are still hammering out the final drafts of the Letter of Intents to be signed by all three parties involved!

     

    Maybe it's just the coffee and cigar talking! ;-))

     

    RBrun357
    24 Apr 2013, 01:01 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1416) | Send Message
     
    This news will be a dollar maker and make those on the sidelines sorely missing out. It's a gamble, but a good one. Our downside is a low 20s versus a strong rally or even an overnight gap up. So, the odds are, what are the chances Tom Granville and Chuck Trego's optimism at the CC was full of BS? I find it unlikely the ramped up PbC builds is for no good reason.
    24 Apr 2013, 01:06 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (843) | Send Message
     
    Hey RBrun, I love you analysis. Got another one of them thar cigars? LOL I know some on this board are somewhat pessimistic on future sales to BMW, but I remain optimistic myself. They may not start with it on every one of their vehicles, but I think there's a good possibility they'll at least give the PbC a try on a particular model. Given of course, that the fleet testing works out. I've been curious why we haven't heard anything on that front lately.
    24 Apr 2013, 01:21 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    I have to love a health nut who goes out for a bike ride and stops for a shot of caffein and nicotine on the way home. WTG RBrun357.
    24 Apr 2013, 01:26 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (797) | Send Message
     
    Life Is Good!

     

    I am also thinking that since BMW already has car models that utilize the two battery systems, one LAB for starting and one Li for the hotel loads all they have to do is toss the Li and replace it with a PbC, make a few adjustments to the electronics and hit the road!

     

    Really good coffee and cigar! ;-))
    24 Apr 2013, 01:35 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    John,
    Um...since when is riding a Harley considered going for a bike ride? :-)
    24 Apr 2013, 01:40 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (797) | Send Message
     
    I have to twist the throttle and shft!! Very exhausting!
    24 Apr 2013, 01:43 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    RBrun: For me what was exhausting, and still is when I do ride, is staying alive.

     

    Fortunately when I was *very* young and had my second accident, they were publicizing defensive driving. I listened, learned and never had a major encounter with large, heavy, moving objects guided by idiots since.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    LabTech> I guess it just goes to show how two guys can reach different conclusions about somebody else going out for a bike ride.

     

    For years I've assumed that I was the only guy around who capped off a couple hours on a bicycle with coffee and cigars, so I immediately jumped to a bad assumption when I thought I'd found a kindred spirit.

     

    It's the same phenomenon you see with mallards in the fall where they cozy up to a string of decoys.
    24 Apr 2013, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (871) | Send Message
     
    I think his "bike" is a Harley, not a bicycle.
    24 Apr 2013, 02:33 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    HTL, You can say that again. Must be something about the ergonomics in a passenger vehicle. Makes all the blood run to the foot that interfaces with the accelerator starving the brain of oxygen. Things like makeup, food, cell phones, fellow passengers and any other number of non automotive things only exacerbate the lack of oxygen vital to the thought process.

     

    US Department of Transportation posts guidelines for reducing in-car distractions

     

    http://engt.co/10A5XaI
    24 Apr 2013, 02:40 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: And, of course, as they issue those guidlines, all the manufacturers are upping connectivity and content in their high-end (and it will filter downward) to offer more distractions.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 02:53 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (751) | Send Message
     
    and they will "save us all" ...
    Tesla (NASDAQ: TSLA) and the 1,000-Mile Electric Car
    http://bit.ly/15HnFtC

     

    I would like to see how much using graphene would effect a PbC.
    24 Apr 2013, 01:39 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (751) | Send Message
     
    If the inventory buildup was for the next train, and the management change there delays it, how does that effect things?
    Does Axion "push" the prior agreed purchase?
    24 Apr 2013, 01:44 PM Reply Like
  • Bill Burtchaell
    , contributor
    Comments (403) | Send Message
     
    It's a Beamer! Hand me a cigar!
    24 Apr 2013, 01:46 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    14:03: ATDF pumps a low ask of $0.246x97.5K into the market.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Looks like ATDF just got rid of (the rest of?) that 97.5K! 15:39:11-15:39:37, several trades grouped in a single second, 100K VWAP $0.2488.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 03:46 PM Reply Like
  • UnpredictableFutures
    , contributor
    Comments (18) | Send Message
     
    No... those both were not the same person... only one was me.
    24 Apr 2013, 04:57 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (823) | Send Message
     
    Anybody have a link to the websites where we searched for import bill of ladings?

     

    My google and Bangwhiz search led me to a few links but when I tried to open the shortened links via seeking alpha they go nowhere.
    24 Apr 2013, 02:10 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1416) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/YRamj0
    24 Apr 2013, 02:16 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (823) | Send Message
     
    Thanks! Will bookmark it directly now.
    24 Apr 2013, 02:27 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (843) | Send Message
     
    This may be the APC Search link you were asking for:

     

    http://bit.ly/rXixeb
    24 Apr 2013, 02:29 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    Does paint dry in a (information) vacuum? ;)

     

    Nibble ZZzzZ nibble zzZz nibble Zzz ZZz Zzz nibble ZzZZ (BOOM large block, relatively speaking, presents itself) Zzzz snore. Yawn, more oxygen required. ZzzZ...
    24 Apr 2013, 02:26 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: what a greedy and impatient bunch we are. Just finished a nasty extended selling bout, where hitting the bids predominated, and in the second (or is it third now) day of taking a breather and doing a little consolidation, we switch from bitching about the selling to bitching about no action.

     

    "Be careful what you ask for - you may get it"! :-))

     

    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 02:56 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    If I recall my high school physics, almost any wet surface will dry faster in a vacuum. Grass, on the other hand, tends to desiccate and die. Unfortunately humans are not fond of uncertainty because it evokes a fight, flight or deer in the headlight response. It's times like this that make me wish we had a few more barbarians.
    24 Apr 2013, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    I'm slow, but I think I'm starting to realize that 1Q, reporting by 15 May, is probably the date we should more focus on. One way or another, we're going to hear something then, if not sooner. And I rather suspect it will be something to the effect that, due to various and sundry revenues and measures, the GC date will have been pushed back and to the right--- to prolly end of June or July, further that the courtship of a strategic partner continues, that other good things continue to percolate, and for people to please keep their seats, because no, the captain hasn't turned off the "fasten seatbelts" light yet and it's still not safe to get up and walk around...

     

    And while yes, every passenger indeed has a parachute, everything's fine...no need to panic yet. Please stay and enjoy the ride. ;) Oh yes, and everyone do keep your yaksack handy. Just in case.
    24 Apr 2013, 03:43 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Nothing wrong with some rip roarin' action. Shakes the nuts from the tree and feeds the animals lower to the ground.

     

    John, You are right re: vacuums.

     

    As for having a few more barbarians around. I think the second string of barbarians need a little convincing there's some glitter in the land to be plundered. Been a long march and all we've seen is coconut husks. Wagons are already full of husks going to market wherever that may be.

     

    Besides, I think the young barbarians are hanging out at the Tesla tent in Babylon. Nothing like a sure thing! :))))
    24 Apr 2013, 03:51 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    dang tesla tent. I can smell the unicorn dung from here. and the noise! well I guess all the little bronies are having themselves quite the time, for now...
    24 Apr 2013, 03:59 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    The group in the Tesla tent is more like the Roman citizenry circa 200 AD expecting free bread and circuses.
    24 Apr 2013, 04:18 PM Reply Like
  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1033) | Send Message
     
    The more I interact with them, the more it feels like a church waiting for the second coming. They are accusing me of buying AXPW (wtf?!!) and twisting whatever argument to fit their wonderland fairy tales. It sends shivers down my back spine knowing that 25% of my portfolio depends on their actions ... brrrr
    24 Apr 2013, 04:24 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >Nicu Mihalache ... I have to hand it to them. They certainly a dedicated lot. I was watching them trade today and they seem to match share for share down trades and don't mind paying up $0.03 to $0.05 above the Ask. My "day one" of my short only paid me $0.03 per share ... bummer ... I deserved more just for the time I spent watching.
    24 Apr 2013, 05:21 PM Reply Like
  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1033) | Send Message
     
    While the price seems high, I would not go against the wave. Shorts are hurting as promised and are paying close to 50% interest to borrow those shares. Moreover, short interest is down only 0.6M during the first two weeks of April (40M shares traded or so). All the powder is there, dry, and we almost got the spark. If the real short squeeze starts, fireworks will offer a wonderful show!

     

    There is no way to predict where it will go short term - as I have already got back my investment on my calls, I can ride them with impunity. If we go over $65, I'll slowly switch to puts.
    24 Apr 2013, 05:32 PM Reply Like
  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1033) | Send Message
     
    Btw, John, could you provide a link to the tests of PbC up to 100k cycles, please? They seem to have disappeared from Axion's website and now they are only talking about 100% DoD.
    24 Apr 2013, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    Axion's presentation from last fall's ELBC is available here:

     

    http://bit.ly/12j1TZ2

     

    The graphs showing 100,000 micro-hybrid cycles vs 7,000 for AGM are on slide 24.
    24 Apr 2013, 06:00 PM Reply Like
  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1033) | Send Message
     
    Thanks!

     

    What DoD is there? Or simply stop / start simulated cycles?

     

    If you choose a range say from 20% to 80% SoC, how many times can you cycle until it has to be replaced, in a cube application, for example?
    24 Apr 2013, 06:04 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    The depth of discharge in a micro-hybrid is basically a couple percent up and down from an 80% state of charge.

     

    The 20% to 80% SOC range you suggested is pretty much the cycling sweet spot for the PbC. A white paper on the PbC from August 2011 is available here:

     

    http://bit.ly/Y59MmD

     

    If you look at the internal resistance graphs on Page 7, you'll notice that they're lowest in the middle state of charge and climb rapidly above 11 volts and below about 5 volts. That range is easiest on the battery and is far gentler than a 100% DOD regime.

     

    I'd love to be able to give you a more definitive answer on expected cycle life in a more reasonable cycling regime like the 20% to 80% you asked about. Unfortunately Axion hasn't released data on that kind of test profile and I don't want to guess beyond saying that the number will be far higher than the 100% DOD number.
    24 Apr 2013, 06:16 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    The time to go short tesla will be when current shorts capitulate and stock roars up even more. Right now, it feels more like swimming upstream I am afraid...
    24 Apr 2013, 06:42 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1206) | Send Message
     
    Makes sense but I say don't try to time it perfectly.
    If they are way above fair value now, go ahead and short now.
    24 Apr 2013, 07:59 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Amouna
    I think the only thing that will seriously cause trouble for Tesla is running short of customers.
    While I will be short for the cc as I expect all the good news is out. I expect the stock to go up shortly there after.
    Many don't seem to care about the balance sheet. The analysts have raised expectations for farther out.
    Personally I usually go for cheap out of the money nearish options. With a company making large swings such as Tesla makes, it has worked out.
    24 Apr 2013, 09:10 PM Reply Like
  • User432382
    , contributor
    Comments (80) | Send Message
     
    Energy efficient 48 volt LC Super Hybrid makes its world debut at premier vehicle powertrain event.

     

    "....combined with new generation advanced lead-carbon batteries, which offer high power density and feature capacitive negative electrodes with added carbon, which have been shown to tolerate the relentless charging and discharging in this micro-mild hybrid application

     

    http://bit.ly/17Xv6w0
    24 Apr 2013, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    User: The battery is one of ALABC member's batteries, not a PbC. This is that CPT with the electric supercharger we've been tracking off and on.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    The press release I got this morning said the 12- and 48-Volt versions were both built with Exide orbital AGM batteries.
    24 Apr 2013, 04:51 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    A closer reading of this thing seems to reveal that it is really a mild-hybrid, IE one with electric propulsion/launch assist...

     

    Says ~1KWh of battery onboard

     

    description of the battery sure seems to flirt with/in decidedly PbC territory... sounds kinda like exide's trying to have it both ways, again....appropriate the lead-carbon moniker and associated descriptions and performance claims, without actually, you know, making a real PbC...
    24 Apr 2013, 04:57 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    HTL, We were tracking the 12 VDC version of this technology which used the Exide carbon enhanced AGM batteries. This is the first I've seen of the 48 VDC version which they announced would be coming when they rolled out the 12 VDC version. I guess the future is now. This is the first time I've seen them commenting on a capacitive component in the power supplied and talking up far better DCA. Maybe this one has Ultrabattery? Or gasp..... ZzzZZ

     

    "“Mild electrification of the powertrain deploying more than 12 volts, but keeping it safely less than 60 volts, combined with new generation advanced lead-carbon batteries, which offer high power density and feature capacitive negative electrodes with added carbon, which have been shown to tolerate the relentless charging and discharging in this micro-mild hybrid application, will be a major factor in providing carmakers with the required energy efficiency and affordability,” says Allan Cooper European projects coordinator at the Advanced Lead-Acid Battery Consortium, commenting on the ability of lead-carbon batteries to absorb very high power (high current) charge pulses of brake energy and provide high current discharge pulses for frequent engine cranking and torque assist. “Most significantly this low voltage micro-mild hybrid technology with nominal 1kWh batteries included can be achieved at a quarter of the add-on costs normally incurred with a full hybrid or electric vehicle.”"

     

    Here's the GCC version. Not going out of their way to show the batteries yet. Yes, they are a secondary player to the technology.......or are they.

     

    http://bit.ly/147lIqp

     

    Edit: King in a string. ;)
    24 Apr 2013, 05:06 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    48,
    It's the same old thing. There's enough information out there saying that flooded, enhanced, and AGM batteries don't get the job done, and so now we add a little carbon paste to the mix and call it a "lead-carbon" battery. It's no different than the article that was found the other day, talking about a new LA battery with a carbon electrode. Of course it wasn't Axion's battery, but East Penn's Ultrabattery, but most of the authors are to lazy to make the distinction between a battery with a carbon electrode and a battery with a hybrid lead-carbon electrode. And so everyone is making hay on Axion's dime.
    24 Apr 2013, 05:08 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    And I bet they work great, out of the gate... but a year down the road? I think that's where we can smell PbC opportunity... come to papa!... here we have these guys demonstrating a more-than-viable MILD (even perhaps medium?) hybrid architecture based on LEAD ACID...they're showing that LA can be a real contender in mild hybrids... that that world does NOT belong exclusively to NiMH and Li-ion... IMHO, that's a big deal...and new. They're doing the advance work for us here! Kicking in the door and breaking the lithium glass ceiling to positively demonstrate that LA can (really) perform! The RUB of course is that while their *current* carbon-enhanced LA solution might be fine out the gate, sufficient certainly for the duration of the dog and pony shows this season, it might only work for a few months/thousand miles total before majorly LOSING its mojo. That could really leave a door open to us, because almost certainly, the PbC can do at least what the exide's are doing right now for them (think ePower).. only PbC should be able to do it for a good real-world 5 years of consumer use instead of a shambolic show-world 5 months...
    24 Apr 2013, 05:10 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    So, 48 volt arrives for the power train. That's going to help the battery lifetime a lot as fewer amps delivered should mean a smaller DoD range and quicker re-charge.

     

    HardToLove
    24 Apr 2013, 05:11 PM Reply Like
  • Milhouse
    , contributor
    Comments (330) | Send Message
     
    So, I am assuming that this is four Exide AGM batteries, to give 48V. If we used PbC batteries for a similar 48V system, would we need four of them, or only three, since they can operate at 16V each?
    24 Apr 2013, 05:14 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    Battery voltage depends on the number of cells in the case. For its 16-Volt PbC Axion uses a standard sized case that's been divided into 8 cells instead of six. The total energy of the battery remains constant, but the voltage increases from the additional cells.

     

    The bottom line is a 48-Volt configuration could be done with either four 12-Volt PbCs or three 16-Volt PbCs.
    24 Apr 2013, 05:21 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    Labtech,

     

    " And so everyone is making hay on Axion's dime. "

     

    ExactaMundo! (except us, dammit)

     

    ...Makes you just wanta spit sometimes.
    24 Apr 2013, 05:24 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    Go with 4 of the smaller 16's kept near a ~12V SOC and you'd have about a 2KWh battery bank solidly capable of at least 10KW launch assist and a *very* effective sink/reservoir for braking regeneration...
    24 Apr 2013, 05:29 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >Milhouse ... I believe this link will show you the Exide 48 vDC configuration along with the discharge curve at C 10 rate.

     

    http://bit.ly/12iVBJ4
    24 Apr 2013, 05:34 PM Reply Like
  • Milhouse
    , contributor
    Comments (330) | Send Message
     
    OK, that's what I thought.
    My concern would be that if the industry is going to insist on 48V, then 3 PbC batteries would run at least $1200, and that might not make it much cheaper than the Li-ion solution from JCI.
    Hopefully automakers will start with a 12V system, and reserve the 48V for heavy micro or mild hybrids.
    24 Apr 2013, 05:47 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    Milhouse, Forget the 400 USD price for PbC as it relates to automotive. There is no way in hell autos will pay that. Here's the link for Exide's AGM offering with SureLife graphite technology.

     

    http://bit.ly/KK6ZGz
    24 Apr 2013, 05:57 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    DRich and Millhouse> As I suspected the Exide graphs start with a 10 hour discharge profile in setting the nominal battery capacity. For a 100 Ah battery their "C 10" discharge current is 10 amps.

     

    If you look at the recommended charging voltage table, the maximum recommended charge rate is 0.15 C, or 15 amps.

     

    When you do the math, the performance looks pretty dismal.
    24 Apr 2013, 06:09 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3332) | Send Message
     
    I just don't see how they can do any really *serious* regeneration with that kind of paltry DCA...

     

    Look what happened to ePower--they melted their conventional AGM's when they tried to lean into them too hard
    24 Apr 2013, 06:21 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (751) | Send Message
     
    Remember VHS and Beta video recording? It is proven that you don't have to be the best, just flood the market with "good enough".
    If Axion is not careful, this will happen to the PbC. The consumer will only remember, "them Lead/Carbon batteries don't last", not that they were sold the crappy ones.
    24 Apr 2013, 08:13 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    Mercifully the automakers know that what Exide and JCI are pushing as "just good enough" is only marginally better than flooded, which falls short of what the automakers need by about 90%.
    24 Apr 2013, 08:18 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1206) | Send Message
     
    yeah, and industrial buyers who can amortize costs over a 5-10 year lifespan of batteries are not the same as retail consumers, spending 5 bucks.
    24 Apr 2013, 08:42 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    There is a longstanding game in the automotive battery sector where the automakers blame the battery manufacturer and the battery manufacturer blames the customer who eventually gets tired of the hassle.

     

    Micro-hybrids are being sold to regulators as emission control technology. They may be able to skate while AGM is the best there is at relevant scale, but they won't be able to sell greenwash for an extended period of time.
    24 Apr 2013, 08:59 PM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (214) | Send Message
     
    user, iidc, et al:
    The two cited articles are somewhat ambiguous in their use of the term micro-hybrid, as we have come to use the term. Neither article mentions stop-start which is the major killer of the AGM's .

     

    " optimized fueling during idle and motorway cruise conditions with electric assist “load point moving” and a leaner fuel calibration; in-gear coast-down; and the ability to harvest significantly more kinetic energy from regenerative braking. It combines advanced lead-carbon batteries with CPT’s production-ready SpeedStart motor-generator system."

     

    This iteration seems to have bypassed the stop-start tech, perhaps intentionally, as some mild hybrids employ it to further improve mileage and emission reductions.

     

    Does anyone have a handle on the cost of the EXIDE carbon enhanced spiral wound 12V or 48V batteries allegedly used here?

     

    JP, When you speak of the 16v PbC, you explain that it is a standard case with 8 cells rather than 6. IIRC, past discussions of this have suggested there was only a single version. While the 16v battery would have 8 cells, those 8 cells don't need to be the smaller plates to fit in a 'standard' case. For example, AXION's legacy/specialty batteries come in 16v & 18v variations with larger cases and plate sizes which could be another version with differing characteristics for differing needs...
    I easily get confused when ideas are simple and a presumption that there is only a single version of the 16v PbC definitely affected my limited abilities to enjoy this thread.
    24 Apr 2013, 11:36 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    The LC Superhybrid does not abandon stop-start because that's the biggest source of the fuel savings. While it also offers some electric boost, that value is very limited because the starter-generator only has a few horsepower of capacity. The 12-volt system used a 2 Kw starter generator which added about 2 hp of electric boost. A couple horsepower of instantaneous low-end torque can be helpful, but unless they've upgraded the starter generator significantly, it's no big deal.

     

    Axion's legacy 16-volt battery was larger because of the two additional cells, but the plate dimensions didn't change. In one of the conference calls Tom said that they'd had a European A7 case made with eight cell compartments instead of six. For that kind of configuration you'd use a smaller number of plates in each cell, but the total number of plates in the battery would remain the same.
    25 Apr 2013, 07:09 AM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (214) | Send Message
     
    I must still be missing something, if the biggest source of fuel savings (presumably emissions reduction) what would be the wisdom or benefit of the significant added expense of electric motors for acceleration boost...? Are they seeking the Tesla effect for the Green Hearted?
    Further, if stop-start is such a major factor, why is it not mentioned in either article? That seems like a significant shortcoming of these veiled press releases (in the guise of articles). The most recent real articles on stop-start have raised the primacy of educating the consumer as to the benefits of stop-start, yet not a word! They must be using AXION's approach to marketing and investor relations---SILENCE!
    25 Apr 2013, 11:28 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    Every electric motor is able to function as a generator. The starter generator on the LC SuperHybrid puts out 2 kW of electric power when it's acting as a generator and it puts out about 2 hp when it's acting as a drive motor.

     

    Using a 2 kW starter generator instead of a 500 watt alternator makes the car better when it comes to recapturing excess energy and allows the batteries to recharge faster, but only if the batteries can accept the charging current.

     

    While CPT makes a big deal of the electric boost, the difference is only a couple percent on a powertrain basis.
    25 Apr 2013, 11:37 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    42itus1, I tend not to place so much emphasis on each individual word or phrase in looking at where the auto industry is going in applying technology to improve efficiency when I read each article. Each auto concern will apply different approaches depending on different market needs, regulations, product plans, patent portfolios, supplier offerings etc. They will also use different wording to differentiate themselves from the group (marketing).

     

    The way I tend to look at our area of interest and Axion, which is storage, is to look at where the auto market is going and to understand what they need to support the transition. Almost everyone is looking at some level of electrification. The reasons are many but mainly it's to support ancillary loads to remove them from the power train. This allows engine downsizing and the ability to support these loads with priorities and on an as needed basis. All in an effort to right size the engine and/or run it more closely to an efficient sweet spot.

     

    So what does this all mean? It means that even though different auto concerns will have any number of approaches they can apply as it makes sense, the energy storage system is being called upon in a way that makes old LAB's a real sore spot. What does the auto makers want? Something that stores and returns energy as quickly as possible, weighs nothing, is safe, lasts forever, they can buy anywhere/anytime (supply) and all for free.

     

    So, since they can't have what they want we need to determine where they will accept tradeoffs. They will not compromise safety or supply. All the rest are negotiable and the importance depends based on different approaches, applications or markets. So we need to figure out how they will compromise on the balance. Not easy but we do know that nothing is a stand out winner for the balance of their needs.
    25 Apr 2013, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (214) | Send Message
     
    I understand the market and manufacturing dynamics you describe and agree with you completely!
    I was only trying to comment on the 'articles', cited, about the 48v Superhybrid. If it is accurate that this 48v version does utilize stop-start in spite of the conspicuous absence of comment in he 'articles', then so be it. I am not convinced but perhaps we will see this mentioned in the future. If automotive is not ones hope for AXION, then this is entirely a moot point. However some still do hope for automotive to be a big driver of the PbC's success, and MUTED articles or discussions of the subject is counterproductive IMHO.
    We have been anticipating a market niche with the PbC as it relates to the special needs of stop-start implementation, when it handles hotel loads during power off events and accepts a charge rapidly when rolling again.
    Remember, I am the one very anxiously awaiting Regulator adoption of stop-start and would very much like to see a marketing/advertising/... campaign regarding same. I have also attempted to suggest that simple one size fits all characterizations of the PbC or stop-start strategies as a gross oversimplification. In fact my argument has been with the OEM's being all over the place in their strategies which is crimping the Regulators from formulating/adopting methodologies when evaluating stop-start vehicles, which in turn inhibits the OEM's incentive to adopt same. Unregulated stop-start strategies can get away with functioning part time using lesser batteries for years, European vehicles being the perfect example and possibly the LC Superhybrid being another.
    That being said, I'll go dark for the moment while enjoying the beautiful weather and calming breeze beneath my Giant Sequoia's.
    25 Apr 2013, 02:22 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: "feature capacitive negative electrodes with added carbon".

     

    For anyone who's aware of the PbC and what it is, that sentence is a dead give-away. That turns the question to: is it possible the engineers of the major automotive manufacturers are not aware of the BMW results? Do they likely know something that suggests the BMW test regime was not applicable to their situation? Are they likely aware of something in their configurations that make the added-carbon variations "good enough" to avoid customer dissatisfaction, lawsuits, allow the cost to be transferred to someone else, ...

     

    I just can't envision a scenario where this sort of PR would sway astute engineers (and management?) to prefer the cheaper less-capable batteries for a true s/s with decent hotel loads and environmental considerations.

     

    Is it likely just a matter of needing a "first adopter" to start the transition?

     

    HardToLove
    26 Apr 2013, 08:32 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    HTL, First mover status carries with it risks and rewards. In some industries it's vital such as consumer electronics. You can live or die in a time frame measured in months due to some feature that is a killer app. or at least successfully marketed as such.

     

    In automotive it's also important but new product cycles are glacial by comparison. It's a requirement for something that has huge safety implications and is in most cases a persons first or second largest investment. And because of these long cycles first mover status advantages can be measured in years because of things like product planning, capacity, validation testing, patent protection etc. Often things we take for granted today took years and years to become commonplace. Things like seat belts, radial tires, electric many things, FM radio...

     

    But because some of these features can have such a large impact and take so long to get on to your programs the automotive concerns spend a great deal of money watching each other. This in an effort not to be caught without something that becomes a must have feature. The various battery technologies? Since vehicle electrification is so very important to support regulations and the features we all "must have" you can bet they are all very well aware of all the energy storage technologies. PbC included. Also, not just the OEM's but the supply base as well.
    26 Apr 2013, 09:04 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4600) | Send Message
     
    HTL, I have asked this question too. JCI building the 2 battery system on a BMW made me think the JCI has requests for something that works where AGM fails.
    I was reminded of this yesterday when iindelco mentioned that auto makers would not pay $1200-1400 for a system.

     

    Reminded me of the statement that JCI made....if you want a system that works..here it is, it costs $1200 and will take 2 years to bring to mkt....(they told them two thing, it aint cheap, and order now cause it's 18-24 months away.) It would be interesting to know the auto makers response.
    26 Apr 2013, 09:19 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2165) | Send Message
     
    The only industry slower than automotive is electric utility.
    26 Apr 2013, 09:52 AM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (823) | Send Message
     
    You are missing the insurance industry. Insurance gives electric utilities a run for the money.

     

    OT: I recently went to a hearing in my town as there is a plan to install smart meters for our water. There were approximately 100 people there that were concerned about the frequency emissions from these meters. Most were on their cellphones before the meeting. I laughed.

     

    My reason for being there was different. Where I live we get a water bill 2x a year. To install these smart meters there was going to be an initial capital cost plus additional fees of approximately $500-1,000k annually to support the transition to monthly billing.
    I was there to find out why this wasn't a financial savings and the reason for the switch to monthly billing. Turned out a consultant told them that monthly billing will help them notify leaks quicker. Yet smart meters will somehow no increase the efficiency of the guys going from house to house to read the meters. To the people in attendance my point was made but obscured by the looney in the first row worried about cancer for his kids while they played games on their Ipad.
    26 Apr 2013, 10:15 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    Mr. H, If we had a cartoonist as an Axionista I suspect he'd have to give you credits in the not too distant future! Thanks for sharing your experience. A mixture of frustration and surreal humor. I suspect far too many of these public forums offer some pretty interesting material.
    26 Apr 2013, 10:24 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    The BMS supplier on this project worked with Dr. Buiel on a past Axion HEV demonstration program so they should be somewhat familiar with Axion's product.

     

    Pg 14

     

    "The HEV project consists of retrofitted two Hybrid Civic vehicles with advanced lead acid batteries based on Axion PbC Technology.

     

    This project will be completed in conjunction with Provector who has already retrofitted Honda Civic vehicles with advanced lead acid batteries in the UK."

     

    http://1.usa.gov/RF5ETq
    24 Apr 2013, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • snowbirdac11
    , contributor
    Comments (32) | Send Message
     
    iindelco
    Thank you for the link. Are there any reports/data/status on the retrofitted cars?
    25 Apr 2013, 06:35 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    Snowbird, Not that I've seen.

     

    For me this is one of the most maddening aspects of investing in Axion. They don't do a good job sharing follow up detail with investors.
    25 Apr 2013, 07:23 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    While I am rarely critical, I don't think Axion does a good job of sharing any information with investors.
    25 Apr 2013, 10:39 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2557) | Send Message
     
    "one of the most maddening aspects" ... Axion's lack of communication is borderline self destructive.
    25 Apr 2013, 11:07 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    I often wonder how much this has helped them in some areas and hurt in others. It's a balancing act for sure.

     

    Irrespective of this balancing act they can do better.

     

    I sure as heck hope the board is getting everything so they can apply pressure in the right areas. Good management needs to get the right feedback all the way to the top. We as investors don't have a say in the case of Axion because we are pretty removed. I'd like to hope the board is working here.
    25 Apr 2013, 11:23 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    My standard advice to clients has always been "take care of your business and let the market take care of itself." There are way too many companies that lurch from one press release to the next trying to support an overvalued stock price. That drill never turns out well.

     

    Cases like Axion where the market does not recognize the immense strides that have been made are rare. It's a very tough PR dynamic because of the conservative nature of Axion's customer base, but sooner or later something will happen that convinces the broader market that there's something extraordinary going on.
    25 Apr 2013, 11:42 AM Reply Like
  • Milhouse
    , contributor
    Comments (330) | Send Message
     
    Things are just getting worse for Exide:

     

    http://bit.ly/12j3eze

     

    California regulators on Wednesday ordered the shutdown of a battery recycling plant in Vernon for failure to control pollution at the facility.

     

    The plant has been operated under an interim permit for more than 30 years by Milton, Ga. battery maker Exide Technologies. It recycled about 22 million lead-acid automotive batteries annually.

     

    Exide Technologies had been operating the plant with an interim permit from the DTSC since 1981; it had applied for a full operating permit.

     

    Los Angeles City Councilman Jose Huizar, who represents residents in Boyle Heights near the Vernon facility, said he welcomed the DTSC’s decision. However, he said, “I do question why the company was allowed to operate with an interim permit for so long when a full permit would demand a higher level of specificity, which clearly is warranted in this case.”
    24 Apr 2013, 06:05 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    Psst, Over here. Don't put that junk in the trunk. ;)

     

    54.5 MPG Surprisingly Close But Demands Electrification, Experts Say

     

    " Hakan Yilmaz, chief engineer-gasoline systems at parts supplier Bosch, says larger vehicles will need that technology most.

     

    “When you get to large pickups and luxury-segment vehicles, all will need some sort of solution with electrification,” Yilmaz says. “With conventional-engine solutions, it is a very hard target to reach.”

     

    Christopher Thomas, vice president and chief technical officer at BorgWarner, thinks microhybrids will play the largest role of the three.

     

    “Very mild hybrids are the ones you are going to see out there in the market, because the electrical architecture of the vehicle does not require the safety connectors and (electrical) grounds that add cost to the system,” he says."

     

    http://bit.ly/12jQ98Q
    24 Apr 2013, 09:32 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    So now what will a passenger have to talk about?

     

    Virtual Backseat Driver May Ride Along With Your Next Vehicle

     

    http://bit.ly/XY0PZZ
    24 Apr 2013, 10:05 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    Eyetalians with brass teslacles:

     

    Maserati dismisses electric cars as "nonsense"
    http://bit.ly/14QNw34

     

    Wonder who they have been reading?
    24 Apr 2013, 10:13 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Fiat-Chrysler CEO Marchionne Says Embracing Only Electric Vehicles Would be Like “Masochism in the Extreme”
    http://bit.ly/Zm7luy
    He prefers NG.
    He reiterates All electric Fiats are being sold at a $10K loss.
    EV fans are sure it's his fault for not making them in quantity for economy of scale.

     

    Plug-In Hybrid Technology is “Best Solution” for Porsche Sedans and SUVs
    http://bit.ly/11SnpkF
    He doesn't seem to be an EV fan either.
    25 Apr 2013, 12:48 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Understanding Battery Capacity Loss From A Four Year BMW Electric Trial Veteran

     

    http://bit.ly/12jYOIj
    24 Apr 2013, 10:13 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1417) | Send Message
     
    Thanks. If only....
    24 Apr 2013, 10:57 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Fisker MIA

     

    Fisker’s landlord says pay rent or get out
    By Katie Fehrenbacher
    Apr. 12, 2013
    http://bit.ly/14R2cPD

     

    Rumors of employees taking boxes of envelopes out of the buildings have been reported.

     

    Fisker’s Website Designer/Creative Services Provider Sues Automaker for $535,000 in Unpaid Bills
    http://bit.ly/YT9Wsn
    The website was down for a while. A partially working website is back up.

     

    U.S. takes $21 million from Fisker as automaker misses payment
    http://reut.rs/14R2aXY

     

    Fisker has already fired much of it's staff and the factory in Norway has not produced a car in over 6 months. Aside from A123 going bankrupt. The company that came out from that B456 to the best of my knowledge has not yet started production.

     

    The Chinese suitor for Fisker has backed out.

     

    At this time I consider them off the radar. Perhaps they will appear again but I doubt it. Too bad the Karma was a pretty car.

     

    Bob Lutz had a company that was buying Karma bodies and IIRC putting Corvette motors into them. With a new hood and grill. I wonder what Lutz's company will do?
    25 Apr 2013, 12:24 AM Reply Like
  • alejotum
    , contributor
    Comments (16) | Send Message
     
    Axionista Experts (anyone)...any of this axion tech ever entangles or have a dent on this UPS Hybrids? Like Carlos said, Muchas Gracias..
    Have a good day!

     

    Hydraulic Hybrids Arrive at Atlanta

     

    The next generation package cars will deliver fuel economy and lower emissions
    As part of a recently announced corporate initiative, 20 hydraulic hybrid vehicles (HHVs) arrived in the South Atlantic District. Ten of the state-of-the-art package cars rolled into the Pleasantdale facility in greater Atlanta, GA area.

     

    The eco-friendly package delivery trucks developed by the Freightliner Custom Chassis Corporation and Parker Hannifin Corporation are designed to provide improve fuel economy by up to 35 percent and lower CO² emissions by up to 30 percent as compared to traditional diesel vehicles.

     

    The deployment was partially supported by grants from the U.S. Department of Energy’s Clean Cities Program, which focuses on supporting local actions to reduce petroleum consumption in transportation to advance the economic, environmental and energy security of the United States.

     

    As part of the HHVs' arrival and deployment plan, service providers met with district Industrial Engineering (I.E.) partners and representatives from both manufacturing companies prior for an overview and orientation. Following the class, the group went for a hands-on walk around to learn about the car and its features.

     

    ______________________...

     

    The HHV operates using two power sources--a fuel-efficient diesel combustion engine and advanced series hydraulic hybrid. Energy created by the vehicle's continued braking action is stored in the HHV's hydraulic high-pressure accumulator, similar to what is achieved with electric motors and batteries in a hybrid electric vehicle (HEV).

     

    The HHV has a function to turn off the engine and drive the vehicle using the stored energy to propel the vehicle. This engine-off strategy can reduce up to 90 minutes of engine run time on a typical route. Because the HHV's efficiency relies on constant braking, the vehicles are best suited for urban routes that typically involve frequent stopping and starting.

     

    ______________________...

     

    Reductions in engine run-time equals more green on roads traveled and to the bottom line. UPS logistics are bringing sustainable solutions to the world of commerce.

     

    http://bit.ly/15OSw7p
    25 Apr 2013, 04:19 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1206) | Send Message
     
    alejotum

     

    I understand that HHVs are very promising in that they offer more efficient regenerative braking than typical batteries-at a lower price. (The same could be said for a PbC hybrid)

     

    I do think of hydraulic accumulators as stiff competition for the bio-carbon battery (PbC). I expect both will have a place in the marketplace.
    25 Apr 2013, 08:47 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4600) | Send Message
     
    Toyota's new concept car:

     

    http://yhoo.it/Y6h5KL
    25 Apr 2013, 07:12 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    Yes, I like the golf ball inspired indentations. That will get certain factions of society enthusiastic.
    25 Apr 2013, 07:33 AM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (871) | Send Message
     
    There is an episode of "Mythbusters" where they covered a car in a layer of clay and then carved out golf-ball dimples all over it. They compared milage with and without the dimples and they saw something like a 10% increase in mpg with the dimples.
    25 Apr 2013, 09:54 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    NGS, I didn't see it but I can't imagine they got anywhere close to a 10% increase in efficiency. That's huge.

     

    I might just go outside with a properly shaped golf iron and beat the living heck out of my car for that kind of increase! ;)

     

    Edit: Well here ya go. Seems their claim is that you're correct. Well gotta go shape the iron. Fore!

     

    http://aol.it/17kl0nS
    25 Apr 2013, 10:17 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: IIRC, the dimples break up the boundary layer air, reducing drag.

     

    HardToLove
    25 Apr 2013, 10:25 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    Understood HTL. Just seems like a huge improvement to achieve on such an imperfect shape. It's not exactly an engineered implementation.

     

    I guess we should just give up on many of these technologies we are chasing, reduce our vanity, and dimple our rides.

     

    BTW, I do realize that less would be achieved in more modern vehicles since they are making advancements in this area.
    25 Apr 2013, 10:37 AM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (966) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/XZjDbm

     

    shape matters here. for cars, dimples are unlikely to help. mythbusters has plans to revisit this episode.

     

    see also :http://bit.ly/XZko4e
    25 Apr 2013, 10:39 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2100) | Send Message
     
    HTL,

     

    I believe that is correct. I read about this many years ago when I was really interested in aerodynamics of paper planes, and tried to figure out how to use the phenomenon to improve lift-to-drag in my paper plane designs.

     

    Microturbulence in the boundary layer of laminar flow over a wing surface reduces the drag induced by separation of flow at higher angles of attack. Less airflow separation of the laminar flow into vortices above the wing surface results in less aerodynamic drag: http://bit.ly/ZKyCXb

     

    It seems rather counter-intuitive that a rougher surface can actually reduce aerodynamic drag in certain situations.

     

    Related is the Magnus Effect, which is why dimples in golf balls improves their lift when they are hit with a back spin. The dimples move the separation point of flow in the boundary layer farther forward, thus improving laminar flow on top and behind, and reducing drag: http://bit.ly/Yo8yO5

     

    Golf Ball aerodynamics: http://bit.ly/17kpzhY
    25 Apr 2013, 10:42 AM Reply Like
  • Tim Enright
    , contributor
    Comments (1341) | Send Message
     
    Also, the improvement would only be seen above 50 mph...
    25 Apr 2013, 10:42 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3931) | Send Message
     
    "IIRC, the dimples break up the boundary layer air, reducing drag."

     

    :-) Most golfers might be a bit crazy, but few are stupid. Dimples enable golf balls to fly a bit farther.
    25 Apr 2013, 10:44 AM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (823) | Send Message
     
    I disagree. Most golfers including myself are stupid. Each year millions of us think that if we buy the newest club we will straighten our drives and add 30 yds of distance. Granted that I recently went out and hit some 50 year old blades that were shall I say unforgiving the incremental change year over year will not help most bogey golfers.

     

    I believe the dimples help becuase of the spin providing lift on a spinning object. Not applicable to cars but maybe to tires!
    http://bit.ly/YUZhxh
    25 Apr 2013, 10:50 AM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (966) | Send Message
     
    the way it works is by creating more friction to reduce or push back the point at which a low pressure area is created between a surface and the air.

     

    with a sphere this is easier to do, see: Reynolds number (i linked the wiki page.
    25 Apr 2013, 11:18 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3931) | Send Message
     
    " Each year millions of us think that if we buy the newest club we will straighten our drives and add 30 yds of distance. "

     

    :-) Not altogether different from buying more AXPW every year on the strength of new testing partners and manufacturing capabilities but precious little in the way of sales. BUT, I do try to keep in mind the difference made in transitioning from hickory shafts to steel and from steel to graphite shafts.
    25 Apr 2013, 12:14 PM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (871) | Send Message
     
    They even demonstrated by having a golf pro drive golf balls with and without dimples. A ball with dimples could be hit over 200 yards, where one without could not go half that distance. Air drag is probably the biggest factor in gas use one a vehicle is up to a constant speed.

     

    Check it out for yourself: http://bit.ly/11FtljJ
    25 Apr 2013, 12:33 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2165) | Send Message
     
    The Mythbusters segment is interesting, although I am skeptical of the results. I hope it drives some testing in a proper wind tunnel. Think of the fuel savings on vehicles like semi-trailers. I am surprised that a super-efficient vehicle like a Prius does not have a dimpled surface.

     

    What is the ideal dimple size? Golfball dimples (1 or 2 mm) may be even more effective than the tennis ball scoops, and aesthetically much more acceptable.
    25 Apr 2013, 12:50 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    NGS: Again, IIRC, the spin on the ball is "backwards" (i.e. the bottom is moving forward and the top back, more or less). This spin increases the air speed at the top of the ball and decreases it on the bottom, just like an air foil is intended to do on aircraft.

     

    The dimples increase this effect, among their other attributes.

     

    The increased pressure differential, due to the Bournelli effect, increases "lift", giving a longer "flight path".

     

    All from possibly faulty memory,
    HardToLove
    25 Apr 2013, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13440) | Send Message
     
    I recall some research about sharks and rays and their very rough skins having advantages moving through the water. Their skins are pebbled rather than dimpled (the reverse of a golf ball, generally) but seem to share some of the same characteristics. The size of the individual features are very small, so I would think the same thing might apply to automotive applications.

     

    Perhaps the answer is not large dimple craters, but a surface which will appear matte and smooth but feel somewhat rough.
    25 Apr 2013, 02:20 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    Actually ripples crosswise to the direction of travel would likely do better. There are large aquatic mammals with setup. (Dolphins IIRC)
    It has been used successfully on racing sailboats. Perhaps 5 years ago. I haven't checked since.
    The ridges were far less than the dimples. Thin plastic sheets with ridges were glued to the hull.
    Golf balls being unidirectional and spinning the dimples probably work better.
    25 Apr 2013, 02:35 PM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (871) | Send Message
     
    The combination of backspin and the dimples gives the ball extra LIFT. Dimples alone without backspin will still send the ball farther than an un-dimpled ball, just won't get the extra lift.
    25 Apr 2013, 02:41 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2097) | Send Message
     
    Looks like a super whistle.
    25 Apr 2013, 08:23 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    Starting to increasingly look like the financing will be a last minute thing. Doesn't give me the good kind of vibes, but I hope I am wrong...
    25 Apr 2013, 07:59 AM Reply Like
  • KentG
    , contributor
    Comments (367) | Send Message
     
    XIDE just hit .99 cents on high volume.
    25 Apr 2013, 09:33 AM Reply Like
  • rupers
    , contributor
    Comments (64) | Send Message
     
    Any chance AXPW benefits from selling XIDE lead that is excess to AXPW's needs? XIDE apparently looking to buy lead on the open market and from competitors, since the Vernon recycling center will be out of commission for a while..
    25 Apr 2013, 09:42 AM Reply Like
  • Alphameister
    , contributor
    Comments (1431) | Send Message
     
    Could this be the year that XIDE and AXPW pass each other moving in opposite directions? And next year Axion bids on production lines at Exide as a way of expediting the process of scaling up to meet demand?
    25 Apr 2013, 10:12 AM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (823) | Send Message
     
    I was hoping to pass them both in nominal price and mkt cap but not this way. I was expecting XIDE restructuring to work and we'd pass then around $5.00/share.

     

    FD- I just bought some 2018 Bonds at 72. Not a lot but I like the risk/reward there.
    25 Apr 2013, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4600) | Send Message
     
    those bonds may be worth looking at. Which ones ? Maturity date? Yield?
    Mr. H thanks for sharing that
    25 Apr 2013, 11:03 AM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (823) | Send Message
     
    Here is the FINRA data. They trade in $10k face amounts.

     

    http://bit.ly/WbYdop

     

    They would be second behind the $60M in a BK.

     

    Here is a good article written:
    http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    What I really like is the comment by latterre. I'm not as pessimistic as him but I'm not a fan of the equity of XIDE at this time.
    25 Apr 2013, 12:31 PM Reply Like
  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (696) | Send Message
     
    All this mounting fuss about a possible Going Concern statement is justifiable from our perspective because we know nothing.

     

    If there is a deal thats great and we should hear about it shortly.

     

    If there isn't a deal we will hear about that too.

     

    Of course there is an outside possibility that Axion has sufficient sales of product to put the necessity of a capital raise off for some time.

     

    Yes the share price is going down but I suspect that is largely the fault of skittish shareholders and maybe a bit of big ugly house cleaning.

     

    Without doubt we need news for comfort but the company continues and is hiring.
    25 Apr 2013, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    My latest article is up.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    25 Apr 2013, 11:56 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Already the folks that don't like numbers start flooding the comments with dismissal of that old boogey-man called Math(ter) (pardon the speech impediment).

     

    HardToLove
    25 Apr 2013, 12:14 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... Your working against me here.

     

    In less than 10 minutes after you published on SA "The Auto Manufacturer That Can Not Be Named" went from $51.45 (in lackluster trading) to $52.40 on a volume of ~200k (about 150k to the upside ... that I caught). Made me wonder what happened. Now I know.

     

    I think you worry them ...

     

    I wish I'd known you were planning an article I could have held off a couple days and saved myself $0.04 per share. :)
    25 Apr 2013, 12:36 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    Boy John you sure have them coming out of the woodwork.

     

    Maybe we could use you as a secret weapon against the Taliban. We''ll have you write an article about their lack of virtues and indicate that you'll be available in person for questions in some house located in the middle of a mine field!

     

    Never mind. Based on your prior TSLA writings we'd end up getting too many Muskovites as well! lol
    25 Apr 2013, 01:09 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    I have to believe there are a few rational people who've gotten caught up in the Tesla hype and simply overlooked the real and substantial risks. The fanboys are certainly angry today that my hatred of Tesla has grown to a level where I'm stooping to issues like GAAP and ZEV credit requirements.

     

    The fun question for the day is "Do you want a group like that one deciding the future of your investment in a company?" It's easy to trust the Axionistas because we're such a cynical bunch. Team Voldemort would scare me half to death.
    25 Apr 2013, 01:19 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4600) | Send Message
     
    If AXPW was $50 / share ,... heck yes I wish them & Voldemort were here.

     

    I know you get page views with controversial articles, but sometimes wonder if it doesn't alienate possible investors from AXPW ?
    25 Apr 2013, 01:22 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    I alienated most of the people on this board; at least until they realized I was right and started paying attention to the cold hard facts.

     

    A man who has been cautioned that his choices are likely to result in a bad outcome is often able to recognize his folly at an early stage in the game and avoid the worst consequences.

     

    When the warnings come to pass and the former critic realizes that this nutcase saved him a fortune, he becomes the kind of friend I want to have.

     

    http://bit.ly/13xDK0T
    25 Apr 2013, 01:28 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    I would suspect there are more than a few that are reading your articles on TSLA and walking away with adjusted perspectives. These might be kept internalized and used to adjust their thoughts and investments while maintaining their social face. As such we'd only see a partial story in the comments section.

     

    But there are some real "believers" as well. Someone has to pay for those big glass palaces you only see on Sundays.
    25 Apr 2013, 01:46 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    DRich
    Yep Me too, Sold the Calls and went short about half an hour before JP.
    I think I'll go for a strangle.
    25 Apr 2013, 02:39 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1781) | Send Message
     
    John,
    You can do what you want, but I gotta say, I think you are wasting your time at this point with Tesla. It's not just that the faithful don't want to hear anything resembling facts, it's that the large fund managers are also stepping in line. I read the transcript from the last CC. The questions were from one large investment firm after another and all they did was gently throw one slow softball after another for Musk to semi-answer. None of them pushed and none of them was critical. Heck, if any one of them showed up on an Axion CC and asked a similar question, the stock would be trading at $5/share right now. IMHO
    25 Apr 2013, 02:44 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >froggey77 ... I've been watching the trading over the past several weeks. Tesla has some very good trading desk management going on. It doesn't appear the pros want to push the stock higher but have been assigned to use as little money as possible to keep it from falling. Falling is what this stock wants to do. Just look for it to be a long slow process without the emotionally challenged buyer jumping in every so often to give it a boost.

     

    I think if you gave yourself enough spread and enough time, months, you'll do just fine and it will expire worthless.
    25 Apr 2013, 02:54 PM Reply Like
  • futurecartsla
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    @froggey guess that's gonna hurt your perfect record pretty badly ;)
    25 Apr 2013, 04:55 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    DRich
    Very interesting.

     

    Future
    If I had a perfect record, I think mine ended with the first option I ever bought. I know it did with Tesla. The first stock I ever bought I lost on also.
    I put a strangle on it this afternoon. have to see which way the stock moves.
    PR on Friday?
    That seems odd.
    It really is as if Elon reacted to JP's article.
    Got to find a way to get this stuff off Axion's board.
    25 Apr 2013, 05:32 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Froggey: "I think I'll go for a strangle."

     

    Of JP?! ;-))

     

    Maybe an "Iron butterfly"?

     

    HardToLove
    25 Apr 2013, 05:35 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7604) | Send Message
     
    We always love a good Petersen TSLA article, seems to drive the stock higher every time. I remember when I first started commenting on Petersen's articles my viewpoint was more of a minority. Now JP just gets clobbered almost across the board.
    26 Apr 2013, 12:02 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2791) | Send Message
     
    We always love a good Petersen TSLA article, seems to drive the stock higher every time.
    It seemed to drive out Elon as well. 20 min to his tweet?
    26 Apr 2013, 02:23 AM Reply Like
  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1033) | Send Message
     
    @JRP3

     

    I look at the same comments as you do, but I see a bunch of noisy and self absorbed toddlers yelling at a wise man.

     

    Have you seen many of those comments without numerous factual errors? Has any one of them taken the undeniable information into account, make some computations and refute the conclusion in a mature way?

     

    I haven't! There are 100 comments that are either shooting the messenger or the messengers' investment, but none staying on topic and asking questions around the information presented.

     

    Is that the kind of clobbering you prefer from your fellow investors?

     

    It makes me scream towards the abyss - it's only my greed for the short squeeze that keeps me temporarily in at this point. But I am taking profits along the way and am preparing my exit because I do not want to be scalped just like everybody else.
    26 Apr 2013, 06:21 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4600) | Send Message
     
    have you ever came on this thread and asked tough questions or stated facts that are deemed negative to axpw?

     

    it's no different
    26 Apr 2013, 07:31 AM Reply Like
  • jveal
    , contributor
    Comments (673) | Send Message
     
    LT,

     

    There is a huge difference! There are many knowledgeable people on this APC who want to know the scientific details and financial numbers. A huge amount of detailed knowledge is shared and received. Are we biased towards Axion? Yes. Do some comments go over the top with excitement for Axion? Yes. But I don't know of another stock that has the kind of following that Axion has that wants to discover the hard facts of what is actually taking place with the company.
    26 Apr 2013, 07:43 AM Reply Like
  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1033) | Send Message
     
    @ LT

     

    I have asked those questions in this very thread. For one I got the answer (about those 100k cycles) and it turns out my memory / interpretation was wrong. For the other (normal 20-80% SoC cycle life) there is no public answer.

     

    But I have failed to get attacked !?!
    26 Apr 2013, 07:47 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3931) | Send Message
     
    " have you ever came on this thread and asked tough questions or stated facts that are deemed negative to axpw?"

     

    Absolutely.
    26 Apr 2013, 11:01 AM Reply Like
  • futurecartsla
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    Nicu congrats on not taking JP's advice and buying Tesla, congrats on your gains.

     

    At this point you either believe Tesla will be successful long term regardless of credits or not (Elon's guidance is clearly credits are not required). This was pointed out in the comments of JPs article, I guess you'd like to see it repeated 10,000 times to match every one of JPs anti-tesla rants?

     

    Anyways, you obvious saw at some point that Tesla was a buy despite JPs convictions, and you have profited from it probably reducing your loses in AXPW. So congrats.
    26 Apr 2013, 11:49 AM Reply Like
  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1033) | Send Message
     
    Tesla being successful long term has almost nothing to do with short term stock gyrations or even the short squeeze. I may believe Tesla is great, take my profits during the next hour, and come back later and load up again in the low $30s.

     

    I have no losses in AXPW as I have not sold one share (except in very special cases of being close to a margin call thanks to my old friend AAPL, and in those cases I think I was ahead in AXPW and it was a small percentage of my position).
    26 Apr 2013, 11:55 AM Reply Like
  • futurecartsla
    , contributor
    Comments (319) | Send Message
     
    simply congratulating you for not taking JPs advice and buying Tesla above $5. You obviously made the correct call. And you most certainly have paper loses on AXPW and you're free to argue all you want they aren't realized loses....yet.

     

    I also pointed out you are incorrect that nobody disputes JPs "facts", as many, many, many, many, many people do.
    26 Apr 2013, 12:05 PM Reply Like
  • Nicu Mihalache
    , contributor
    Comments (1033) | Send Message
     
    Thanks!

     

    Yes, many dispute JP, some with real arguments. I like to believe I am among them when it comes to Tesla.

     

    I was pointing out that in the comments of his last article, there was 1% reasoning and 99% mouth froth.

     

    As for AXPW, with the risk of repeating myself, good things come to those who wait!
    26 Apr 2013, 12:51 PM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (971) | Send Message
     
    LT

     

    Surely you jest...au contraire...vastly different.

     

    You appear to be at a very frustrating stage...understandable... "no different"???
    26 Apr 2013, 03:00 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (823) | Send Message
     
    LT-

     

    I've gone back and read most of your posts over the last 6 months to a year. Basically I see a shareholder frustrated with mgmt. If you are as frustrated with mgmt (and reading between the lines - you think many of the axionistas are mgmt lackeys) as it seems you should sell and move on. Nothing, and I can speak from experience is having faith in a product and frustrating mgmt.

     

    My biggest loss ever was in a Canadian company Bioexx. Go look it up. Quiet mgmt but something from day 1 struck me as odd/indifferent with mgmt. Over the summer as delays continued and the problem areas shifted I became increasingly frustrated and I took a few days of vacation and drove to Sask to see the plant. Showed up unnounced and tried to get a tour, no luck. People there were so suprised that they rang the CFO on the phone as he was in Toronto and I spent 15 minutes on the phone with him. While I was leaving I was lucky enough to have an employee tell me that Sr. Leadership was lacking as mgmt was in Toronto and the plant was in Sask. The next morning I sold all my shares for a considerable loss (50% on a lot of shares to me)but stock is down 80% from where I sold it. Each person has their own opionions of mgmt and what they are responsible for/can control. Personally, I want to see the terms of this financing, I will go to the AGM as I want so mgmt with my own eyes, and I have some private goals/expectations this fiscal year. If they are not met I will sell. Generally I like businesses that can be run by stupid mgmt teams but this company and product isn't at that stage of life. Mgmt is critical.

     

    I applaud the recect process improvement but I am disappointed by mgmt/myself that this wasn't clearly explained that this worked/completed. This is the first tinge I had that reminded me of Bioexx. If I get a second, I'm gone as well.

     

    No product/company is worth investing in if you cannot believe mgmt.
    26 Apr 2013, 04:10 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4600) | Send Message
     
    MrHolty....FYI, I own less than 10% of the shares that I once held. Go back and read concentrators from 1-3 years ago. I was gung ho too and then the yellow flags started appearing. TG and others here would hype every comment to be huge sales and nothing ever happened except the one order to NS and it was delivered many months late. I got bashed when I posted that IMO based on article after article that Start / stop looked to be mostly 2015-16 roll out if then and many did not believe it.

     

    So I quit posting until what you have read this year.

     

    Every conference call mgt. painted a rosy picture with a "upbeat positive tone" and statements for the past 3 years. Someday it will probably change and something good will happen. So far it's been nothing but disappointment.

     

    Most people here only want to hear the positive spin and how many billion axpw will be worth. Mostly i think their fear is that axionista's will sell. Even you are saying you will sell if they don't set goals. How would you feel if this was the third year and no goals?
    26 Apr 2013, 06:36 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7604) | Send Message
     
    Nicu,
    My response on the Tesla forums addresses your concerns, as do the responses of others. Short answer, Petersen is wrong about Tesla, as usual.
    26 Apr 2013, 10:49 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (823) | Send Message
     
    LT-

     

    Congrats that you followed what your gut was telling you. I have concerns as well but your posts have become tiresome to me.

     

    We can see from the recent agreement that the BOD thinks Senior Mgmt is fine. You and others disagree which is also fine. My suggestion is that you do what Mr. I has done and write a letter to the board with goals, etc. Hell, maybe get a group of Axionistas who agree with you and send off a letter to the board with something to the effect of "We are 20 shareholders who hold X shares, x% of AXPW and have some suggestions for the Board and Senior Mgmt..." Lay out expectations of a quarterly letter, whatever. I just think the idea of formal published goals for mgmt will get you anywhere. I assume the board has their own goals privately.

     

    I worked for Continental Airlines and we had a 4 cornerstone program called the 'Go Forward Plan' it had 4 sections that were core to the Business: Fly to Win, Fund the Future, Make Reliability a Reality, and Working Together. Internally, mgmt, Sr. Leadership the board set the goals but the goals for the future were never published. I think the reason for your frustration is that you think there are not goals for TG and crew. Hopefully, I disagree. They should have goals that are measurable, repeatable and valuable. Lets look at the 4 sections I meantioned above that we used at CO and figure them out today:

     

    Fly to Win - This is sales. You should break down the sales by group. Rail, Automotive, Home/Utility, Other. Personally, from day 1 I've discounted the Home/Utility market to be 0. I do have goals for Rail and Automotive. Last year I thought we were on track for rail but so far in Q1 I've been disappointed. Automotive I have a goal for FY 2013 and one for FY 2014.

     

    Fund the Future: This is where most of the noise is now. Our financing and price will tell me much about our future. After last year's financing I sold 80% of my shares as the stock was in the $.40s and the amount requested told me that I had a year as nothing huge was happening. I've rebought my shares plus more as I was bullish by the language of financing by April 30, 2013. The silence here is actually more bullish, imho. The longer its quiet and if it goes into May tells me that this isn't financing like the last time.

     

    Make Reliability a Reality: They've hit their goal it sounds like. The problem for me was that I thought they had already hit that. IMO that is an ommission by purpose by TG to be vague as I understand what he was doing. As a shareholder though I didn't like it. Its why I will be going to the AGM to really see what I can and look mgmt in the eyes.

     

    Working Together - Not as important for a company moving from concept to production. This area will be more important if we get sales and the company executes its plans to partner.
    27 Apr 2013, 12:15 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4600) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for sharing your goals, they are good ones. Now we see if they can meet them.
    I am not harping on financing as it could go any one of several options. I do believe they have it available as we speak. No reason to speculate until it happens.
    That statement in next to the last paragraph was one of the topics the APC did not like me mentioning. I questioned 2 years ago the ability to mass produce and the carbon sheeting automation. It turned out, that question had merit. That accomplishment is a huge step. It also show that TG will not tell the truth and will be vague not only in that but in anything..
    You are smart to go to the shareholder meeting.
    27 Apr 2013, 01:27 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1416) | Send Message
     
    Some things you don't say unless asked. I don't blame TG for not mentioning the sheeting automation. It would have only hurt Axion and AXPW.

     

    I know we are unsatisfied with the level of communication from TG, but it's still far too soon to call him a liar or equivocator.
    27 Apr 2013, 01:37 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    I'm sick and tired of commenters who turn Axion's triumph in developing an automated carbon sheeting process as some sort of past non-disclosure.

     

    I have written for years that Axion's sheeting process was a lot like a French bakery where the carbon material was mixed and then run through the rollers repeatedly to form a sintered sheet with appropriate electrical and structural integrity. The process was well defined, well controlled and scaleable. It was the most labor intensive component of the PbC battery, but it was absolutely commercial.

     

    A few years ago Axion was talking about a 10-line electrode plant creating 500 jobs. Roughly 50 of those positions would have been operating the electrode lines and the balance would have been making carbon sheeting.

     

    Anybody who didn't understand wasn't paying attention.

     

    Today, instead of creating 500 jobs in a 10-line electrode plant Axion will only need to create 75 jobs. The unspent payroll can be used to increase profit margins on the PbC and reduce costs to customers, making the PbC more attractive economically.
    27 Apr 2013, 01:55 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... The part of the carbon sheeting saga I most interesting is that they toke it upon themselves to do in-house. To me, that is as it should be. I hope there is a patent in there somewhere. A fully automated line is a really big deal. I think the only unresolved gliche is the dwell time between stations. I don't remember reading that had been fixed ... just in progress.
    27 Apr 2013, 02:24 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3931) | Send Message
     
    I simply do not understand your perspective, LT, regarding carbon sheeting. JP's recitation of historical carbon sheeting production methods is all I remember reading. I have NO memory of reading anything whatever about fully automated, continuous carbon sheeting production.
    27 Apr 2013, 02:44 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3931) | Send Message
     
    " I think the only unresolved gliche is the dwell time between stations."

     

    AND, as I remember that gliche it applied to the robotic electrode assembly line -- NOT carbon sheeting.
    27 Apr 2013, 02:46 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4429) | Send Message
     
    >D-inv ... I think of production line as all components. Both fabrication & assembly with subsystems are one. None work well if one doesn't. Carbon sheet automation is a big deal but only a component to the system and it is the system that is important to me.
    27 Apr 2013, 02:54 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    IIRC, the dwell time problem was resolved by adding a clone of the slowest workstation and splitting the line feed between two machines that perform the same operation – the so called Gen 2A.
    27 Apr 2013, 03:19 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    John, The possibility of the line cycle being resolved via an added duplicate station was one of the thoughts offered up in this and the Yadoodle forum when I was still participating there. This is a solid theory because it is very often applied with the type of material transfer system Axion is using. (I've seen hundreds of these types of lines and built a few.) We however never really got any level of detail concerning what their problems were in the process.

     

    We did see TG lament a little in the last cc that some of the other processes outside of carbon sheeting were far more difficult to resolve than he would have imagined (He used this as contrast for the level of success they observed in the carbon sheeting process which to him was wholly unexpected without far more effort. The pleasant surprise!) Most people don't convey those types of feelings to the type of audience he was addressing at the time if they were not past tense. For obvious reasons.
    27 Apr 2013, 04:03 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    My recollection is that Tom said they resolved the problem by adding another station in a 2010 or 2011 vintage conference call. Unfortunately my transcript archive is spotty and I wouldn't really know where to look.
    27 Apr 2013, 04:16 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    I don't think TG is a liar. He is just very cautious with regards to whatever he says and it's probably in his nature to not talk much and let his work speak for itself. Unfortunately, Axion is right now at a stage where it has to market itself to prospective investors/customers etc, and for that I figure that TG and co need help from marketing people
    27 Apr 2013, 04:26 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4600) | Send Message
     
    He was asked.
    27 Apr 2013, 04:35 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    Thanks John, I don't recall any update on the capacity status of that line other than the first comments made when it was installed. That the issues are resolved in this time frame should not be a surprise.
    27 Apr 2013, 04:56 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3931) | Send Message
     
    I share that memory, JP. I also remember utterings to effect that the line was thereafter satisfying/meeting design goals and Axion anticipated replication of the modified line as "Gen3" when need for more capacity arose.
    27 Apr 2013, 05:12 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    Since a rock solid memory is the second thing to go I always prefer a little wiggle room on the deep memory bank events. I'm glad to hear that your recollection matches mine.
    27 Apr 2013, 06:00 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    Found this old Wiki page that was set up by an Axionista. Thought 2010 was a bit early for the new line install. Seems accurate.

     

    Gen 2 Line

     

    http://bit.ly/11NRe7w
    27 Apr 2013, 10:28 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    BMW started testing the PbC in the summer of 2009 and their feedback was very positive by December when the stockholder vote was taken to force conversion of all classes of preferred stock to pave the way for the 2009 offering. In May of 2010, Axion quietly announced that it had hired a well known engineering firm to design and build the Gen2 line.

     

    http://prn.to/Y5q64y

     

    It's speculation on my part, but I think the most likely scenario was that BMW liked the battery and went to New Castle to inspect the production process which is SOP once a battery makes it past the first six months of testing. As a result of that inspection I think BMW probably said something like:

     

    "we love your PbC battery but couldn't possibly buy products from your Gen1 electrode system. Why don't you let us introduce you to an engineering firm that can help you build a line we can live with?"

     

    Within nine months of the announcement, the Gen2 line was up and running, although it took some time to work out the final bugs. There's been a lot of talk about process certification over the last couple years but I think the Gen2 line was designed and built to BMW standards a couple years ago. There are other process qualification issues to be sure, but I don't believe the electrode line is one of them.
    27 Apr 2013, 10:59 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    Found this in a prior 424B3.

     

    "The complete new line was delivered to us in March 2011 and is currently being aligned and put in place at our Green...."

     

    http://bit.ly/11txypc

     

    I have no doubt BWM has reviewed Axion top to bottom. I also have no doubt that Vani knows what BMW expects and knows the deliverables which I'm sure BMW had advised Axion of even before Vani came on board.

     

    I don't know if BMW gave advise on suppliers they have worked with in N.A. but you may recall that I have done business with the company that built the electrode asst line so I am 100% sure they have built equipment for automotive.

     

    PS Now back to wading through our latest round of troll poop.
    27 Apr 2013, 11:34 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    The only reason I raised the point is that a lot of readers have interpreted your discussions of 'certification' as some sort of discrete process or event that will not occur before testing is completed.

     

    As I understand the certification protocol, reviews of manufacturing processes, controls and equipment, along with supply and distribution chain evaluations are an iterative and ongoing process that runs on a parallel track with product testing and validation. Based on that assumption I've always believed that things like the Gen2 line, the ISO reviews, the beefed up engineering staff and other improvements and upgrades were responses to observed deficiencies to put Axion in a position where it could be certified when the product was.

     

    If my understanding of how the process works is right, then it would seem logical to assume that Axion has made great strides toward automotive certification while the PbC was making great strides in the ongoing testing and validation.
    28 Apr 2013, 06:54 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17298) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: IIRC, WTB set that up.

     

    HardToLove
    28 Apr 2013, 07:29 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    John, I understand many of your posts are intended not only to support some exchange of information directly but also to act as a means of making sure a group of people with diverse backgrounds and time spent understanding Axion are also advantaged by the exchange.

     

    In this case your point of getting prepared to be a supplier for automotive is VERY accurate. The act of getting certified is not a digital event but a series of many many deliverables that all lead to some final confirmation that you can meet cost, quality and delivery for the applications you're selected for. There is a mountain of effort and documents that lead to an automaker granting this status and there is no way it could ever be a digital event.

     

    To those that have been through it it's an arduous task but it does make sense when you understand what you are looking to accomplish. For those not familiar with the process and not given support by someone that understands how to meet the requirements of and process all of the deliverables it can seem like a never ending series of events in purgatory.

     

    You can really view it as being similar to becoming a top notch player in sports. It takes a large portion of a persons life and there are steps from beginning until recognition to be prepared to get the final "Grade A-1" stamp.
    28 Apr 2013, 08:22 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    Thanks HTL, I recall the discussion and efforts that went into some of the Wiki pages but I didn't recall who set it up.
    28 Apr 2013, 08:23 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    Many thanks for the detailed reply Iindelco.

     

    I think many Axionistas are laboring under the mistaken impression that OEM supplier approval and certification is a discrete event rather than an integral part of the process. When stockholders talk about the issue, they almost always talk about a linear series of events rather than a series of parallel tracks.

     

    In many ways I suppose the logic makes sense because so many things in life are linear rather than parallel. But I've been convinced for years that every equipment upgrade, every staff addition, every QC certification and every improvement in internal and supply chain controls is, at least in part, a response to deficiencies noted by one or more potential customers.
    28 Apr 2013, 10:49 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    John, It's good that you put your "group perception" hat on when we are talking about topics. I've never been a good speaker or educator but the phrase, "Know your audience" certainly applies here.

     

    The best thing I can equate certification to is getting a Phd. There is an event where you get a certificate but the process that leads up to the event starts a long time before you get the document. The ability to be a six sigma quality manufacturer that is competitive in cost, quality and delivery is honed during the journey not the destination. So as you suggest it requires attention to detail during the all phases of a program from concept to delivery and even into service.
    28 Apr 2013, 12:35 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    That idea of a sequential process was one that Omy carped on incessantly – saying they have to do all this testing and validation and then they'll have to face a grueling certification process. OMG the sky is falling. Run away hide.

     

    As far as I can tell Axion has spent the last four years in OEM boot camp, special forces training and advanced logistics and supply. It won't be over till the fat lady sings, but I'm willing to bet that the progress on all fronts has been nothing short of spectacular. Otherwise the potential customers would have already gone elsewhere.
    28 Apr 2013, 01:12 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8848) | Send Message
     
    Well I'm sure I gave plenty of yarn to OMY (Iwinkle) on the Yadoodle board on this topic. How she(?) takes it along with information from here and spins it is another story. I no longer frequent that forum for a reason and it's 100 % because of that person. A real piece of filth for sure. That starts to become obvious when the person comes here but those that have not read this person for a period of time have no idea how sickening the posts can really get.
    28 Apr 2013, 02:28 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29568) | Send Message
     
    The alter egos keep showing up to remind us, but mercifully APH has highly honed troll recognition skills that help him/her accommodate the negative without giving free rein to the absurd.
    28 Apr 2013, 02:37 PM Reply