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  • Axion Power Concentrator 239: May 24: Axion Power Reports First Quarter Results For 2013 263 comments
    May 24, 2013 8:45 AM | about stocks: AXPW

    Latest News, Articles and Presentations...

    Axion Power Reports First Quarter Results For 2013 --

    "Our hybrid passenger vehicle work has entered a new phase. The OEM, in an anticipated effort to insure they will not have a "sole source" issue, has asked us to pursue with them, an alternate provider of our final product. Since this initiative is in keeping with our long stated future strategy ("to become the leading supplier of carbon electrode assemblies for the global lead-acid battery industry"), we embraced the process. We are a few months into that program and it is going well."

    "The second hybrid truck program we have been working on is a dual battery design for a truck stop/start technology. This is very similar to the stop/start initiative we have been working toward with passenger vehicle OEM's, except that the battery sizes are larger. In this stop/start program, we have an historical industry leader as an initial strategic partner. We are in the early stages with this program, but we have been told that, if initial data continues to trend as we have predicted, then we will be able to incorporate data we developed in our passenger vehicle stop/start program. This is significant because it will literally reduce time to market by at least 1/3 rd."

    "Our Phase II proof of concept effort includes collaboration with strategic partners chosen for their expertise in the development of compatible vehicle systems that are essential for our entry into both historical and emerging markets. The unique properties our PbC® battery exhibits - long cycle life; high charge acceptance; fast re-charge; and inherent string equalization - create a strong case for PbC adoption by historical industry leaders and by those with new cutting edge technologies. Our application pointed out, as further evidence of our potential place in those markets, that we are in various stages of lab or field vehicle testing with these strategic partners."

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Axion Power Completes Private Placement for $9 Million in Senior Convertible Notes With Warrants and $1 Million in Subordinated Unsecured Notes With Warrants --

    the developer of advanced lead-carbon PbC® batteries and energy storage systems, announced today that it has completed a private placement of $9 million principal amount of senior convertible notes and warrants with institutional investors and an additional $1 millionprincipal amount of subordinated unsecured convertible notes and warrants in an ancillary transaction with directors, officers and one of the original Axion founders. Maxim Group LLC acted as placement agent.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Axion Power on Panel at Energy Storage Economics 2.0 for New YOrk City and Beyond --

    The developer of advanced lead-carbon PbC® batteries and energy storage systems, announced its Senior Vice President of Sales and Marketing, Vani Dantam, has been invited to participate as a panel expert on energy storage, at the upcoming AGRION event in NYC.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Axion Power's CEO Discusses Q4 2012 Results - Earnings Call Transcript

    Thomas Granville CEO: "We left the designation 'development stage company' in the dust in 2012 and there's no slowdown in sight."

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Axion Power Reports Results for 2012 --

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Axion Power Completes New Continuous Roll Carbon Sheeting Process

    "This is a giant leap forward for us and allows us to make a better product at a reduced cost," said Axion Power's Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Thomas Granville. "It's the final step in automating our complete activated carbon negative electrode manufacturing process and it brings us tighter quality control, better production yields, meaningful production quantities and significant labor cost reductions..."

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Axion Power and EPower Engine Systems Inaugurate Strategic Alliance Using PbC Batteries in Hybrid Drivetrains for Class 8 Trucks

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dr. Ed Buiel, Axion's CTO until the end of 2010 -- A link to an archive of his comments on yadoodle about the PbC battery and much more. Invaluable commentary! Thanks to 481086 for putting the list together.

    Axion Power PbC Batteries Continue To Demonstrate Effectiveness For Railroad Applications -- Axion completed shipping its high-performance PbC batteries to Norfolk Southern Corp. (NYSE:NS), one of North America's leading transportation providers, for use in Norfolk Southern's first all electric locomotive - the NS-999.

    Axion Power Residential Energy Storage HUB Certified to UL, CSA Standards -- Axion receives UL certification and CSA Standards for their Residential Energy Storage HUB.

    "ePower's Series Hybrid Electric Drive - Unmatched Fuel Economy for Heavy Trucks" -- by John Petersen. Discusses the potential fuel savings for ePower's Hybrid electric drive for class 8 trucks using Axion's PbC batteries.

    "Axion Power - A Battery Manufacturer Charging Forward" -- by John Petersen. This is an excellent summation on Axion Power's history. It is a good starting point for introducing Axion Power to friends and family.

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    Axion Power Weighted Moving Average Prices and Volume:

    (updated through 5/17/2013)

    (click to enlarge)

    (click to enlarge)

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    Axion Power Monthly Volume versus FINRA Short Percentage:

    (by John Petersen)

    In late January I wrote an Instablog about the precipitous decline in reported FINRA short sales as a percentage of total trading volume. Over the last two weeks that trend has accelerated and the percentages for the month of February and the last four weeks are solidly in single digits. I view this graph as another confirmation of seller exhaustion. The big uglies are history and it looks like everybody who really wanted to sell already has.

    John Petersen's instablog here.

    (click to enlarge)

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    Links to important Axion Power research and websites:

    The Axion Power Concentrator Web Sites, created by APC commentator Bangwhiz. It is a complete easy-to-use online archive of all the information contained in the entire Axion Power Concentrator series from day one, including reports, articles, comments and posted links.

    Axion Power Wikispaces Web Site, created by APC commentator WDD. It is an excellent ongoing notebook aggregation of Axion Power facts.

    Axion Power Website. The first place any prospective investor should go and thoroughly explore with all SEC filings and investor presentations as well as past and present Press Releases.

    Axion Power Intra day Statistics Tracking: (updated 5/1/2013) HTL tracks and charts AXPW's intra-day statistics.

    PbC Cost Estimating Spreadsheet and Instablog: Apmarshall62 put together an instablog for estimating costs of the PbC. It includes a downloadable spreadsheet that you can use to plug in your own cost estimations.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Be sure and either follow the Axion Power Host ID on Seeking Alpha or click the check-box labeled "track new comments on this article" just ahead of the comments section!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    WARNING: This is a troll free zone. We reserve the right to eliminate posts, or posters that are disruptive.

    Enjoy!

    Disclosure: I am long OTCQB:AXPW.

Back To Axion Power Host's Instablog HomePage »

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Comments (263)
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  • AlbertinBermuda
    , contributor
    Comments (693) | Send Message
     
    Good morning one and all.

     

    Good to see the share price slowly rising.
    24 May 2013, 08:52 AM Reply Like
  • carlosgaviria
    , contributor
    Comments (783) | Send Message
     
    Primero!!!
    24 May 2013, 08:53 AM Reply Like
  • Milhouse
    , contributor
    Comments (330) | Send Message
     
    Bronze medal. Now if I only had something to say...
    24 May 2013, 09:11 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    05/23/2013: EOD stuff partially copied from instablog (up later).
    # Trds: 32, MinTrSz: 250, MaxTrSz: 10000, Vol 114349, AvTrSz: 3573
    Min. Pr: 0.2550, Max Pr: 0.2690, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2644
    # Buys, Shares: 23 84950< VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.2660
    # Sells, Shares: 9 29399, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2599
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 2.89:1 (74.3% “buys”), DlyShts 33000 (28.86%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 112.25%

     

    An AH trade of 5,100 shares at $0.26 doesn't appear on the FINRA daily short sales. Excluding this volume would yield a short percentage of 30.21%. If those shares are included and are also short sales the percentage short becomes 33.32%.

     

    Note that VWAP made a nice bump up. This appears due to the sellers becoming much more disciplined as the number of changes to the ask price was substantially reduced from what is normally seen. From 11:13 through the close, the ask seemed to stay at or above $0.2689. But I didn't take near as many peeks today as normally. This seems to have caused a constant move up in the bids throughout the day during the times I took a look. This occurred with ATDF and NITE, two of our long-time “usual suspects” being at the front of the offers at the times I looked. A refreshing change.

     

    Average trade size remains depressed, in the lower range of what I believe is retail trading. Regardless, the buy:sell was very positive, continuing to demonstrate what I believe is a perception of favorable risk/reward at these prices by the buyers. The action of the sellers makes me think that some of them may be changing their thinking too – I suspect that now they lean towards holding out for higher prices since the risk seems reduced. Maybe, I don't really know. Regardless, the buy:sell averages have all migrated back to near-normal levels and continue to move in that direction.

     

    All six of my original experimental inflection point calculations showed one-day improvements. Four showed improvement in the change over five days. Four also showed improvement in the average rate of change over five days. The five-day calculation ha crossed above zero, but we know that one's a bit flaky and wee need to wait for the longer-term ones to improve enough to make “the pattern”. My newer version has all six showing one-day improvement and, as with the original, the five-day calculation has moved above zero. But the change over five days has only four improving and the average change over five days only has two improving while four have deteriorated.

     

    It's the falling volume that prevents signaling a bullish move right now.

     

    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.

     

    HardToLove
    24 May 2013, 09:17 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    It's a hot muggy morning in Houston but the flies aren't getting stuck in the paint and it's hard to tell whether the paint is still tacky to the touch.

     

    The market activity over the last two weeks seems to be what I used to refer to as "street sweeping" - provide unlimited demand at low prices and let the timid sell before you try to move the price up.

     

    Once the sellers are exhausted, market development is easier and cheaper, particularly if you have a solid core like the one Axion has developed over the last couple years. PIPE investors can be brutal about getting their money back if things head south, but their goal is the same as ours and they'd much rather have a multi-bagger than a 15% spread.
    24 May 2013, 09:24 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2483) | Send Message
     
    Hopefully the SEC review takes long enough for TG & VD to pull something out of their hats.
    24 May 2013, 09:36 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3297) | Send Message
     
    John, what do you figure could be worst-case impact as this plays out? I'm just looking to know the upper-bound on what the maximum damage could be, recognizing of course that such an outcome should be very low probability. I mean, we could lose some blood, but there's a limit, right?
    24 May 2013, 10:14 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    The worst case scenario is always the same, Chapter 11 and a total washout. While I think the likelihood of a bad outcome is remote, the possible outcomes are more binary today than they were before the financing. Muddle through is not a high probability outcome.
    24 May 2013, 10:42 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3297) | Send Message
     
    Thanks John, I know my question is a bit of a rasher. Appreciate as always your sharing of insight. I guess this really *is* the year then...
    24 May 2013, 10:56 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2483) | Send Message
     
    In other words - put up or shut up.
    24 May 2013, 11:09 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    We've been friends for too long for me to sugar coat the good or the worrisome. I still have a lot of confidence in management and even more confidence in the battery.
    24 May 2013, 11:52 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3297) | Send Message
     
    On another note, XIDE looks like it just rolled into a high AOB turn to a tighter orbit as it pulls even harder g's circling its own drain. Glad to be watching this one in third-person view...
    24 May 2013, 10:42 AM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (824) | Send Message
     
    48- What is the news on XIDE? Quick search pulls up nothing. Debt printed a low of 62 from and as of right now is at 67 down from where it had stabilized around 72 when we last talked about them (and I bought a very small amount).
    24 May 2013, 10:56 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    >481086 ... I haven't found what instigated this newest round of down just yet.
    24 May 2013, 10:57 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3297) | Send Message
     
    mrh, I only saw the common price tank... now like down to 42 cents... I'm trying to look for news myself...
    24 May 2013, 10:59 AM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3297) | Send Message
     
    straight from the top of the yashoo board, credibility not established:

     

    "Exide Technologies is negotiating with bankers to arrange a debtor-in-possession loan that would fund the company through its Chapter 11 process, said two sources familiar with the matter and an advisory source.
    The size of the DIP is expected be around USD 200m, with some proceeds being directed to paying down borrowings on a USD 200m ABL revolver that had USD 118m drawn on 31 December, according to the first source. The loan was issued in January 2011 with Wells Fargo acting as sole lead arranger, Deutsche Bank and Barclays as syndication agents and Morgan Stanley as documentation agent, according to the credit agreement.
    The car battery maker has been under pressure from a looming September maturity on its USD 55.7m convertible notes and depressed earnings that squeezed its liquidity, as reported.
    However, the biggest blow to the company’s financial stability came at the end of April when California state regulators temporarily shut down Exide’s lead recycling facility in Vernon, California. The facility, which recycled 22m batteries a year or about two-thirds of the company’s estimated total 30m battery capacity, was shuttered due to a leakage of toxic material into the surrounding soil.
    The plant closure prompted Standard & Poor’s Ratings Services to downgrade the company’s corporate credit rating to CCC+ from B- due to the company’s high leverage and vulnerable risk profile.
    The announcement also spurred a flurry of activity among the company’s creditors who started to organize. An ad hoc group of the borrowers’ holders of its USD 675m 8.625% first lien notes due 2018 selected Paul Weiss as their legal counsel and Houlihan Lokey as its financial advisor, as reported. The company is working with advisor Lazard.
    As of 31 December, Exide had USD 80m in cash and USD 81.7m of revolver availability. Exide’s leverage through the 8.625% notes is around 5.8x based on the USD 675m first lien note, USD 118m of ABL revolver borrowings, and USD 137m of LTM EBITDA.
    Free cas"
    24 May 2013, 11:03 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    My Exide theme song – http://bit.ly/13PZFP5
    24 May 2013, 11:55 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    I guess this will wipe the common shareholders right off the map. Better luck the next time 'round.
    24 May 2013, 12:03 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3297) | Send Message
     
    On the bright side, to commemorate their next emerging from BK, Exide will introduce a brand new battery series, with a special discount for former shareholders (ie Special Friends of Rick's).. They're gonna call it the SkidMark.
    24 May 2013, 12:09 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2093) | Send Message
     
    Hiya 86,
    I can see the commercial now "Skidmarks, they're not just for your shorts".
    24 May 2013, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    All that assumes that the report on the message board is reliable – a pretty heroic assumption in my view. In case you hadn't heard, there are people who make a lot of money by posting bad information in public forums and Axion is not the only victim.

     

    On the bright side Axion may be able to pick up Exide for a song in its Chapter 11 proceeding. I can't imagine a more karmic outcome.
    24 May 2013, 12:13 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2476) | Send Message
     
    Unfortunately, the put prices make it hard to make a buck there. For example, the Sep $2.50s are ask $2.15, so if the stk goes to $0 by then, you make $.35 at best (perhaps $.30 to allow for a spread to the buyer), so the max profit is about 15% (excl commish). 60% annualized return, yes, but thin for options, IMO.

     

    Woulda coulda shoulda. Crummy companies usually stay crummy.
    24 May 2013, 12:18 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (828) | Send Message
     
    RE: "Axion may be able to pick up Exide for a song in its Chapter 11 proceeding. I can't imagine a more karmic outcome."

     

    I've thought of this as well. But wouldn't purchasing Exide expose a buyer to its liabilities as well, such as possible substantial environmental fines from its toxic releases?
    24 May 2013, 12:22 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3297) | Send Message
     
    I would perhaps give the actual debtwire piece I linked to a bit more credibility, but absolutely, misinformation and disinformation are sure to abound...

     

    I think about 20 concentrators ago I tried goofing on a scene where TG convenes his first staff meeting as CEO of the new combined company... Axionide... nervous anxiety permeates the room as they await his entrance... taking his time he strides in, flanked by Phil and Chuck... takes his seat.... a long pause... "Good morning ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for attending. As you know..."

     

    (with characteristic foresight, he has first aid station with bandages and gauze setup outside the conference room...)

     

    gallows humor can be such fun--as long as it's not your party.
    24 May 2013, 12:25 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1401) | Send Message
     
    "I've thought of this as well. But wouldn't purchasing Exide expose a buyer to its liabilities as well, such as possible substantial environmental fines from its toxic releases?"

     

    More commonly the assets are bought, and the liabilities go down with the remaining shell. Rarely the whole package is bought, unless the company can emerge on its own (ie bondholders would agree to take ownership).
    24 May 2013, 12:33 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    In a well structured Chapter 11 you can leave the problems with the bankruptcy estate and take the assets in relatively clean condition. GM was a prototype for that kind of procedure.
    24 May 2013, 12:38 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    WIO: Pick and choose the pieces we want? Possible Dutch auction style with liabilities associated with certain pieces and not others?

     

    HardToLove
    24 May 2013, 02:17 PM Reply Like
  • 481086
    , contributor
    Comments (3297) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/10ptCIH

     

    link to debtwire xide piece, a bit more complete...
    24 May 2013, 11:55 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    XIDE market cap 33.72 million USD

     

    AXPW market cap 30.1 million USD

     

    Boy I'm glad I wasn't in front of today's action on the long side. ugh! :(

     

    Edit A fitting warning unless you understand finance very well.

     

    http://bit.ly/Z5oFDT
    24 May 2013, 12:35 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    It will be fascinating to see how it all plays out. Exide has problems, but I don't think they're as grave as the market does. Its $3 billion a year in battery sales are not going to evaporate. The current price is 1% of sales. Baring a complete wash out, there's a lot of wiggle room for management to structure a miracle.
    24 May 2013, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (824) | Send Message
     
    I think they will wiggle out a miracle in BK. Current mgmt owns very little of the company. Take them into a prepack DIP, have bondholders take a little haircut (say 10%) and get 5% of the new equity on emergence.
    24 May 2013, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2382) | Send Message
     
    Amprius Begins Shipping a Better Smartphone Battery

     

    By Jared Newman May 23, 2013

     

    http://ti.me/16Ty71T

     

    "Amprius and other companies are trying to replace graphite with silicon, but silicon’s tendency to swell and crack the battery while recharging is a major obstacle. With its first-generation battery, Amprius isn’t offering a full silicon anode yet, but is using a “nanomatrix structure” with fine silicon particles and other active electrochemical materials. The company claims that its batteries meet phone makers’ requirements of maintaining 80% capacity over 500 charges."
    24 May 2013, 01:27 PM Reply Like
  • Alphameister
    , contributor
    Comments (1428) | Send Message
     
    Barely a month ago, I speculated this would be the year AXPW and XIDE would pass each other going in opposite directions, and that next year Axion could be picking up some cheap Exide assets. Developing much more quickly than I'd have expected, and would indeed be karmic!

     

    Going back almost ten years, there has not been a calendar year in which AXPW failed to trade above $.60 a share. While there are a "few" more shares outstanding these days, it seems unlikely to me that the string would be broken during a year in which everything is finally coming together for this company.

     

    The stock market is supposed to be a discounting mechanism with an eye toward future results. At a time when some commenters here were speculating on the disappearance of an opportunity in automotive, Axion announces the most bullish possible action by BMW short of a major contract and the news goes virtually ignored. I can't believe there won't be an acceleration of bullish news out of Axion this year and beyond that will lift AXPW above 60c per share by later this year and much higher in 2014. I view trucking as the most reliable driver of stock performance, with automotive the top (but unpredictable) candidate for producing exponential gains at some point during the next two years.

     

    For those enamored of the Tesla story, I'll note the availability(through June 8th) of an off-Broadway biodrama, "Tesla" in which James Lee Taylor plays Nikola Tesla, "inventor and youthful hearththrob."
    24 May 2013, 02:24 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1212) | Send Message
     
    Grid-Scale-Energy-Storage on the Cusp of True Market Entry
    http://bit.ly/13Qvoj7

     

    "despite the early stage of this industry and its players, I would suggest that the energy storage industry took a noticeable step forward this year. Instead of technical papers on electrolytes, anodes, and hysteresis, the panels and hallway chatter were dominated by:

     

    Lessons learned from energy storage pilots and initial commercial deployments
    Integrating energy storage with solar and wind and connecting to the grid
    The necessity for big data analytics to effectively shave peak and smooth renewable generation
    The need for standards, modeling, software integration and cybersecurity awareness

     

    Confronting these issues, rather than running a technology love-fest, is indicative of an industry coming to grips with its place in the energy ecosystem.
    It's been slow going, but the pilot programs are yielding information. Equipment crews at vendors and utilities are gaining experience at deploying substation-sited storage, co-locating with renewables, as well as in domains such as community energy storage and residential energy storage. Regulators at the state and federal levels are listening. And the case studies are starting to show some actual monetizable value from energy storage.

     

    The "behind the meter" energy storage firms such as Stem, Demand Energy, and Silent Power are beginning to post their compelling case studies. We'll be profiling those firms, as well as SolarCity, Isentropic Energy, Beacon Power and many others in the coming days. Stay tuned; there's a lot to cover."
    24 May 2013, 02:58 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3886) | Send Message
     
    Commented on the article suggesting that the author might consider looking into Axion going forward.
    24 May 2013, 05:01 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1415) | Send Message
     
    Re our price: A lot has to do with what niche is in favor and how a niche is understood and valued. Investors value the niches 'big oil' and 'tech', etc. for instance...Investors do not think of or value a niche known as the 'storage ecosystem'.

     

    Note the action today of all fuel cell companies..fuel cells are being viewed more favorably as being part of the hydrogen alternative energy ecosystem, so the price of the big fuel cell players is up, FCEL up over 30%.

     

    I believe this will happen to AXION also as the 'storage ecosystem' becomes a place to invest and as our battery's place in the 'storage ecosystem' becomes more clear.

     

    We are just way ahead of the game. It is playing out in front of us...enjoy! The fruits of our patience will come.

     

    BTW, if the 'storage ecosystem' is of interest, could we spend some time defining the players in ours, as I believe there are several 'storage ecosystems' defined by different needs. AWAK ours is the niche defined by the need for 'charge acceptance and rapid discharge'.
    24 May 2013, 04:11 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1212) | Send Message
     
    Speaking of "charge acceptance", am I correct that by that we mean the ability to fast charge?
    24 May 2013, 04:57 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    >D Lane ... Yes.
    24 May 2013, 04:59 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1212) | Send Message
     
    Fast charge batteries could mean a breakthrough for all-electric buses.

     

    Proterra fast-charge buses use lithium-titanate (L.T.O)
    "L.T.O. batteries are less energy-dense and heavier than some other batteries, he said. “The L.T.O. advantage is you can fast charge and they don’t heat up and they don’t degrade as quickly” as other battery chemistries, he said. “They are great for fast charging.”
    http://bit.ly/16f6FMC
    24 May 2013, 05:00 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1212) | Send Message
     
    My impression as an observer of Proterra for a couple of years is that there is some interest in battery alternatives to LTO. As the Proterra rep admitted, batteries don't last forever. Particularly so when you fast-charge them?

     

    I saw one report that they were communicating with GE about their Zebra batteries. Not sure those can fast-charge.
    24 May 2013, 05:08 PM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
    Comments (1766) | Send Message
     
    D Lane,
    I have been following Proterra, basically from their get go, since the fast charging batteries they are talking about are from ALTI, which was my first battery stock investment years ago. It would be nice to see them finally start moving some buses and ALTI to finally start selling some batteries, but I think by the time that happens, ALTI will be shipping the batteries from their new plant in China.
    24 May 2013, 06:12 PM Reply Like
  • Pztrick44
    , contributor
    Comments (82) | Send Message
     
    thotdoc-
    I concur with analyzing our 'storage ecosystem' and could be interested in putting some charts together like this:

     

    http://bit.ly/14K0T1g
    (totally bogus values/scale)

     

    Here, with bogus data, I use a scale of 1-10 (which could mean ordinal ranking among the types of batteries), but you could also have each leg use absolute scale (e.g. 3,000 or 40,000 cycles before toast at 100% DOD).

     

    The other design question is whether it would be more helpful to analyze cost as its own leg in the chart, or if each leg should be normalized against cost --- e.g. 40,000 cycles normalized to 425 cycles/kwh/$). I think the latter would provide the most 'analytic bang'.

     

    And then there's the task of researching the actual data for the various battery types... ;)
    24 May 2013, 08:02 PM Reply Like
  • Pztrick44
    , contributor
    Comments (82) | Send Message
     
    What would be the next public indicator of progress with the OEM automaker supplier?

     

    Would we see an MoU press release (e.g. when they've concluded negotiations), zero notice until vehicles show up at an auto show with Axion inside, or something in between?
    24 May 2013, 04:13 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    Pztrick
    What would be the next public indicator of progress with the OEM automaker supplier?

     

    Would we see an MoU press release (e.g. when they've concluded negotiations), zero notice until vehicles show up at an auto show with Axion inside, or something in between?

     

    The battery maker would have to sign an agreement; as that would be a material event.
    I'm not really familiar with this but TG said they were 'months' into the process. As there is only one for BMW I suspect they are now testing Axion's carbon sheets in the other companies line. They will also have to order and have built a line over there. I would think that would need an agreement as well.
    24 May 2013, 07:56 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Froggey, What do you mean by there is only one for BMW? If it's battery suppliers they have more than one supplier.
    24 May 2013, 08:21 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2768) | Send Message
     
    IIndelco

     

    "What do you mean by there is only one for BMW? If it's battery suppliers they have more than one supplier."

     

    While BMW may have introduced Axion to more than one battery maker and Axion is trying to work with more than one battery maker. The BMW project only has one. (At least at present.)

     

    From the CC:

     

    Michael Smith - Private Investor
    Okay. Also, in your 10-Q you didn’t say anything about the status of the BMW third party testing, do we have any update on that?

     

    Thomas Granville - CEO
    The third party testing has concluded. So, we’ve moved into the next phase, and I think I made mention of that in the Q, that the next phase with BMW is that they’re looking for us to ensure them that we’re not going to be the sole provider of the product. So, we’re working with another large lead-acid battery company that’s currently a provider of the product for BMW. And we’re working through those arrangements. I can’t say a whole lot more about it.

     

    Michael Smith - Private Investor
    Are you working with just one company or you’re looking at multiple lead-acid companies that you would be providing electrodes to?

     

    Thomas Granville - CEO
    We’re looking at more than one, but for the BMW project it's only one of their providers.

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    24 May 2013, 08:30 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Froggey!
    24 May 2013, 08:40 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    In my opinion a joint venture, partnership or supply agreement with another battery manufacturer would be a mandatory disclosure event. It might not contain a reference to a specific automaker, but the deal would have to be disclosed.

     

    There will also be a mandatory disclosure of partnering if Axion gets its Phase II grant award in early July - six or seven weeks from today.
    24 May 2013, 09:03 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2323) | Send Message
     
    Yup, I'm eagerly awaiting the Phase 2. I assume TG thinks it's a probable event otherwise I'm not sure he'd dare take on the latest financing since the installments due on the debt convertible will be shortly thereafter.
    25 May 2013, 02:02 AM Reply Like
  • dlmca
    , contributor
    Comments (334) | Send Message
     
    Re Exide - buy the assets - the contingent liabilities if any should disappear

     

    Question is would we ever want to do this? And especially right now. Would we want this new strategic direction? Lower GP - hundreds of times the headaches

     

    And just who leads?

     

    Why spend all managements time fighting the battles and politics of a take over when we have a nice clean customer centered opportunity that can before too long produce Exide's profits and more.

     

    Let's not forget either Exide's shoddy treatment of AXPW. This may have written their story and set them up for today's failures

     

    Men - stick to our knitting, Be patient. Be rewarded

     

    Sorry if I sound like a broken record but there is far too much negativity on this site.

     

    Let's get our heads up and assume that TG and more particularly his team, and our fellow and new investors, are aligned with us in the quest for gold

     

    Lastly - if anyone else can find a tech - with AXPW potential, prudent management and customer positioning - sitting under $0.50 - please let me know as I will pick up another half million of those shares too
    24 May 2013, 04:20 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2105) | Send Message
     
    Here is a thought.

     

    Exide to idle much of Bristol operation (Nov 2012) http://bit.ly/1343EZN

     

    East Penn buys the idled Exide factory in Bristol, TN, to partner with Axion in making PbC's to ship to Spartanburg, SC for BMW.

     

    ePower trucks then deliver them across the Appalachians:
    http://bit.ly/1343LV1
    24 May 2013, 04:39 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2476) | Send Message
     
    dlmca---it's above 50 cents, but if you're looking for another 'tech' stk with moonshot potential and prudent mgmt, you may want to look at OHRP. Along with your eye Dr., of course. :^)
    24 May 2013, 05:20 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    MANIPULATION ALERT!

     

    Two consecutive days ... At the close ATDF, typically the top of the bid, withdraws it's bid, exposing the next lower bid to the market. Some other MMs also withdraw their bids.

     

    Anyway, two days in a row, we now have an AH trade that hits the bid, yesterday $0.26 when the close was $0.2690, and today hits the bid at $0.2602 when the close was $0.2611.

     

    Now, my TFH could be all wrong, but why would someone hit the bid (sell) at a lower price after close than was available throughout most of the day? Well, it does cause "last trade" to appear lower on all the platforms and that might lead folks to think there was weakness in the price action.

     

    If you are trying to spook folks into releasing shares more cheaply than they should, this is one way to attempt it.

     

    As we all know now, there's a possibility that some "financiers", some of whom might be "unsavory", have an interest in the stock that they did not heretofore have. There may be other parties with ulterior motives as well.

     

    So, don't make you decisions on this sort of late-day action if you've been thinking of releasing some of your shares. The buying sentiment is realatively strong, based on recent action, and you should be able to have some kind of decent price if you must let some shares go.

     

    Today the sellers held the line pretty well, again, with just a few instances of folks getting antsy and jumping to the front of the offers. This is reflected, w/o that extra 6K, in the VWAP today of $0.2648, a buy:sell of 1:1.63 (39.45%), which is right in the normal range seen in typical day-to-day variations and VWAP appreciation since the financing (prices here 5/1 and forward): $0.2585, $0.2492, $0.2563, $0.2609, $0.2588, $0.2513, $0.2492, $0.2466, $0.2417, $0.2372, $0.2446, $0.2592, $0.2599, $0.2575, $0.2594, $0.2598 and $0.2644 ($0.2647 w/o the AH trade yesterday).

     

    The trend is more apparent in my instablog charts I think.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    24 May 2013, 04:53 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2476) | Send Message
     
    HTL, there were some afterhours trades when Quercus was selling, as well as elevated daily short volume. Could be another private placement seller.
    24 May 2013, 05:09 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    The short interest jumped from 5,300 shares at April 30th to 171,600 shares at May 15th. My guess is that some professional heard whispers about the financing before the terms were announced and has been playing games ever since. I don't think it's the buyers because that kind of behavior can earn an orange jumpsuit. But its pretty clear that somebody's trading for lunch money.
    24 May 2013, 05:11 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    MrI: Possible. But if so, I assume they would prefer a profit over a loss? Or at leastn a smaller loss? For that reason I presume they would want to sell at higher prices, which have been available at various times on the bid throughout the day(s).

     

    And if they are at all alert and have at least L2, they could see how well the offers are holding their ground recently and would know they have a good chance of getting a better price. They could also see the habitual withdrawal of best bids at the close.

     

    My conclusion is that they are not acting to satisfy the above two possible objectives I mentioned.

     

    Of course. they could be just totally clueless, a low-percentage likelihood I think.

     

    HardToLove
    P.S. We (I?) believed that many of those were MMs "balancing" their portfolio at EOD. It was a reasonably reliable indicator that Quercus was active for some time. There were times we could even match them to trades during the day, pretty closely. This behavior now doesn't have the same "smell" at all! ;-))
    24 May 2013, 05:26 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    JP: I hold to my view that it's just the mix of market-makers - we had "new" ones become much more active.

     

    The timing of the short increase was very closely correlated with their appearance.

     

    HardToLove
    24 May 2013, 05:34 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2476) | Send Message
     
    AXPW's short interest for 5/15/2013 is now available, and it shows short interest of 171,561 shares. Obviously way up from the steadily low historical numbers, e.g., 4,513 shares on 4/30/2103. Hmmm...

     

    http://bit.ly/w2v2wj

     

    then click on "Short Interest Data" in the upper right, then enter AXPW and click View in the window that should appear.
    24 May 2013, 05:41 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    We will probably never agree on whether market makers will short sub-$1 stocks. My past experience in dealing directly with market makers on behalf of other clients tells me it simply does not happen because they can't afford the risk of holding penny stocks long or short. It will be interesting to see what future short reports have to say.
    24 May 2013, 05:44 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    MrI: I thought I mentioned this might happen? Or, more likely, I thought about mentioning it and then the "senior moment:" took over. Anyway ...

     

    MHO is that this is just an effect of the increased MM participation by the more active ones we've seen which corresponds to the daily short increase combined with the "standard" T+3 effects.

     

    Daily shorts last three days inclusive of 5/15, some of which will not have cleared & settled at the close for the reporting period, were, in thousands: 778.10, 590.69 and 370.42.

     

    That number you show doesn't suggest anything concerning to me at all.

     

    HardToLove
    24 May 2013, 06:16 PM Reply Like
  • dlmca
    , contributor
    Comments (334) | Send Message
     
    SMuturin

     

    East Penn buys Exide to expand their relationship with AXPW

     

    That is a strategy more to our liking

     

    EP handle the problems - we clip the coupons with them
    24 May 2013, 05:15 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    The numbers are out on the mother of all short squeezes. On 3/28 our comic book superhero had a total short position of 31.3 million shares. On 5/15 the total short position had collapsed to 23.0 million shares.

     

    A 26% decline took about 400 million shares of trading volume. I'm willing to bet that the pre-squeeze short position will be restored by June 1, or June 15 at the latest.
    24 May 2013, 06:02 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    At least they are going to a "better place".

     

    Better Place Runs Out of Juice, Reportedly Plans Bankruptcy

     

    http://bit.ly/150rOpe
    24 May 2013, 06:35 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Heyyyyy, We used to be included in the report. The Rodney Dangerfield of Supercabatteries? I tell'ya, No Respect!

     

    "Included in the discussion and forecasts are so-called Asymmetric Electrochemical Double Layer Capacitors (AEDLCs) better known as supercabatteries."

     

    "Supercapacitors and supercabatteries mainly have properties intermediate between those of batteries and traditional capacitors but they are being improved more rapidly than either. That includes improvement in cost and results in them not just being used to enhance batteries but even replacing batteries and capacitors in an increasing number of applications from renewable energy down to microscopic electronics."

     

    "The bottom line is that almost everywhere you see next generation electronic and power technology you see supercapacitors and supercabatteries being fitted or planned because of superior performance, cost-over-life and fit-and-forget."

     

    http://bit.ly/11jMMAQ
    24 May 2013, 07:54 PM Reply Like
  • Pztrick44
    , contributor
    Comments (82) | Send Message
     
    I like that term 'fit-and-forget'
    24 May 2013, 07:56 PM Reply Like
  • User432382
    , contributor
    Comments (80) | Send Message
     
    The investor that put up the 2nd most amount of money after Robert Averill in the $1 million financing is "James Smith". Anybody know who this person is and what his relation is to Axion? I don't see his name listed anywhere on the Axion website, but when I searched the Internet a "Dr. James Smith" had some relation to Axion years ago.
    24 May 2013, 09:11 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    Jim Smith was one of the ten original Axion founders but he's never held a position of responsibility with the company because he's too busy practicing medicine.
    24 May 2013, 09:15 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4605) | Send Message
     
    Great article by Joe Springer, http://seekingalpha.co...
    25 May 2013, 06:42 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    LT: Great info I'd not realized in that article, even though I've been following, and in/out of (HYGS) for some years: "From Sep 2010 to Sep 2011 Ontario sold about 278 GWh of energy at negative prices to neighbours and paid about $15 million dollars to do so. That was with only about 1,400 MW of wind generation on-line. When we have 7,500 MW of wind generation in 2018 and if demand growth continues to be weak, we will have a lot more surplus energy".

     

    And that leads to a paragraph that bodes well for all viable forms of storage, including (AXPW), which all of us here already know: "The best solution, he said, would be a way to store unused energy when the wind is blowing. But we don't have a good way to store large amounts of electricity".

     

    The costs of starting and stopping base load capacity or mentioned, but not detailed. So additional savings s/b available from that avoidance.

     

    If storage could save a substantial portion of that $15MM in just one utility and amortize quickly, in utility time-frames, there's going to be room, and need, for different technologies in huge proportions around the globe.

     

    As to HYSG's effort, I really have only one concern - generation from water. As we all know there are issues with potable water availability already and, I *believe*, "clean" water is needed for fuel cells so as to not shorten the lifetime. This may put an upper bound on application of this technology, along with the need for existing pipelines. It should be a high upper bound for a long time though.

     

    Thanks for the link!

     

    HardToLove
    25 May 2013, 08:24 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4605) | Send Message
     
    HTL, the "water' issue was the only negative or limiting factor I see. I will probably consider taking a stake in it soon for a long term hold.

     

    I am unsure of AXPW gains from this. I don't think the PbC has a future in large scale energy storage, but there will be a demand for "behind the meter" systems for load leveling & cleaning in certain instances. But in the big picture a limited mkt.
    25 May 2013, 08:54 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3886) | Send Message
     
    Thanks to LT for the reference link and to you HTL for your thoughts on water availability. Those thoughts prompt the idea there may be a market for HYSG technology that it has yet to address -- generation of potable water through electrolysis of non-potable supplies and recombination of the H and O.
    25 May 2013, 09:09 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    D-Inv: ISTM that breaking down the water, after "cleaning", and later combining it again to make, again, "clean" water is not the best application of the energy. I think stopping the process right after cleaning the water would be a better strategy.

     

    I'm thinking of the energy-in vs energy-out thing - I forget the acronym ATM.

     

    However, having said that, *if* the H is to be produced and stored anyway, then when it is burned, producing only clean water as it's exhaust, we could certainly use it. Exactly where and how is something I've not thought of.

     

    Regarding the storage of H in the NG pipeline grid, no clean water available from that route as the H is only a small percentage of the gas volume & weight (of course!). We would need an H-only storage process, or a cleaning of the "hythane" exhaust, to really make it workable and, IIUC, the storage aspect has been pursued a long time w/o success (economically I mean). It does exist on industrial scale, I guess, a few places where the economics justify it.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    25 May 2013, 10:39 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2105) | Send Message
     
    HTL,

     

    I concur with your concerns about energy efficiency of hydrolysis and re-oxidation as a means of purifying water. Filtration or reverse osmosis systems are probably more efficient on large scales.

     

    I generally like Joe Springer's assemblages of facts, but I am cautious about the depth of his scientific understanding of technical issues he writes about.

     

    In this article, he stated that "hydrogen has the highest energy content of any fuel, about three times that of natural gas" with a link to a table that lists energy content by Kg weight. Then he goes on to discuss injection of gaseous H2 into the natural gas system as if they were interchangeable. The problem with this underlying assumption is that gaseous H2 by volume has only one third the energy content of natural gas. See http://bit.ly/1272IIt

     

    So he is off by an order of magnitude when considering the interconvertibility and energy equivalence. This is why we cannot simply replace natural gas with 100% H2 in the current infrastructure. We would need a complete rebuild of the power generation systems to account for the different energy densities. Adding 15% H2 only slightly lowers the energy density on the mixed fuel when injected into current NG infrastructure. Using 100% H2 in systems designed for NG comustion would be analogous to trying to drive your car made for 90 octane fuel with a 30 octane mix (a simplistic analogy, but it may help understand the problem).
    25 May 2013, 11:38 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (3886) | Send Message
     
    You are no doubt on the mark, HTL. My earlier remark was my mouth running before checking out the HYGS technology and having it stimulate recall of semi-ancient memory regarding electrolysis.
    25 May 2013, 11:42 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1415) | Send Message
     
    HTL-

     

    IMHO we are moving towards an economy that increasingly uses hydrogen in all its variations and forms as fuel. If that is so, investing in the best fuel cell companies is a good idea. There are only a few that are public, and all seem to be moving towards profitability. Each has a niche. The 'hype-curve' fits this segment and the individual companies.

     

    And, once you start following them and the research projects they are involved in, to get around the problem issues they each face, it's pretty amazing.

     

    Re HYSG, I've been impressed by the sales/promotional energy of its leadership, especially the energy of Dave Wilson as well as their patents and partners. Long ago I read that you are better with an A-Team and a B-Product, than an A-Product and a B-Team. I've learned that is true over my years of investing in great ideas that never came to the level of fruition that I'd imagined.
    25 May 2013, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    thotdoc> I've always preferred an A Team with a B Product over a B Team with an A Product, but I've never heard it described so simply and eloquently. Many thanks for the communication lesson.
    25 May 2013, 12:59 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    Smaturin: Another issue with 100% H2 might be corrosion in pipelines? ISTR some discussions long ago about it being quite corrosive in certain conditions. And it's a slippery devil too - sealing in a system designed for the larger methane molecules might be insufficient.

     

    But in lower concentrations with the gas constantly moving, maybe that's not a worry. The big problem being addressed is buffering the renewables in some fashion and if using the existing infrastructure for storage, with a only small percentage of the potential energy lost, accomplishes that, I think it's a win from an overall energy systems POV.

     

    HardToLove
    25 May 2013, 01:49 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    Thotdoc: I believe in an "all of the above" approach and know that H has a place somewhere. One of the things I encountered when I got interested in the energy space was the amount of water required to produce different types of energy. Amazing, to me, that NG required less water than all the so-called "green" alternatives for the amount of energy produced. H was not included in that table, which I can link if anyone wants to see it.

     

    This is what prompted me to first mention the water issue. One possible mitigation of this issue, ISTM, for stationary generation applications is the capture and re-use of the water exhaust. It's a reducing quantity for sure, but could help minimize the amount of "new" water consumed.

     

    H can be produced from other sources too, but I'm not on-board with the economics of that. If water continues to become an ever-greater problem, maybe it's possible to make it from other materials that aren't needed for other things.

     

    HardToLove
    25 May 2013, 02:01 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2093) | Send Message
     
    Hi JP,
    Another author with masochistic tendencies. http://seekingalpha.co... Not sure if this has been linked here before, but it looks like he may have read some of your articles.
    25 May 2013, 02:07 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1415) | Send Message
     
    see http://bit.ly/110GvZj

     

    One new way to make hydrogen...and what makes investing at the edge such a problem. That best idea you invested in 2 years ago, just got wiped out by a newer better idea.

     

    Re other ways of making hydrogen (from WP): "Fermentative hydrogen production can be done using direct biophotolysis by green algae, indirect biophotolysis by cyanobacteria, photo-fermentation by anaerobic photosynthetic bacteria and dark fermentation by anaerobic fermentative bacteria. For example studies on hydrogen production using H. salinarium, an anaerobic photosynthetic bacteria, coupled to a hydrogenase donor like E. coli, are reported in literature.

     

    "Biohydrogen can be produced in bioreactors that utilize feedstocks, the most common feedstock being waste streams. The process involves bacteria feeding on hydrocarbons and exhaling hydrogen and CO2. The CO2 can be sequestered successfully by several methods, leaving hydrogen gas. A prototype hydrogen bioreactor using waste as a feedstock is in operation at Welch's grape juice factory in North East, Pennsylvania (U.S.)".

     

    This method, or one similar, is used by FCEL to produce the energy stock for their fuel cells at manufacturing plants using off gassing.
    25 May 2013, 03:34 PM Reply Like
  • Keyboard
    , contributor
    Comments (67) | Send Message
     
    JP has referred to the ability of gases to pass thru silk underwear in a small number of past Concentrators.

     

    As hydrogen has become the topic-du-jour of the current Concentrator, note that hydrogen is the largest component among such gases when they are produced in quantity.
    25 May 2013, 05:22 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    On an atom count basis you're right about the hydrogen content, but it's usually bound with carbon in methane and a host of other automatics.
    25 May 2013, 05:50 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    JP "automatics" -> "aromatics"?

     

    HardToLove
    25 May 2013, 06:11 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    Sorry for the typo, but you at least got a whiff of my intent.
    25 May 2013, 06:39 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    JP: LoL! Good 'un!

     

    Just didn't want the ATF (not aromatics, typos and fubars!) coming after you here.! ;-))

     

    HardToLove
    25 May 2013, 06:42 PM Reply Like
  • Keyboard
    , contributor
    Comments (67) | Send Message
     
    Atomic count is not needed because the notion of methane dominance is incorrect. It is in fact hydrogen as yes, a fully independent molecule.

     

    Alkanes are not even produced in half to two thirds of the population. The original hydrogen underestimation errors were caused by extensive diffusion loss before measurement. (Not unlike a point SMaturin made about "slippery" hydrogen in a very different context in recent weeks.)
    27 May 2013, 02:06 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2164) | Send Message
     
    SM, Another problem with "replacing" NG infrastructure with H is permeability. A methane molecule (CH4, atomic weight 16) is much larger than hydrogen (H2, atomic weight 2) and is difficult to prevent leaking. H permeates most steel and embrittles it, and H leaks through most valves and joints. Putting H2 through a NG system generally does not work.
    27 May 2013, 08:49 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2105) | Send Message
     
    Yes Rick, I am aware of the hydrogen diffusion and embrittlement issues. I omitted them for brevity's sake. Just another reason why a complete infrastructure rebuild would be needed for H2. Stainless steel piping and teflon coatings might be necessary for safety to adress these concerns.

     

    Some advocates believe that the lower concentration of only 15% H2 in NG could minimize these concerns, as the embrittlement problem, like most gaseous chemistry, varies with temperature, pressure and concentration. But it would not totally eliminate diffusion leakage and the potential for dangerous H2 buildup in closed spaces around the piping.

     

    Sustainability through H2 conversion is a noble idea, but daunting in its practicality.

     

    Perhaps a more practical method, if anybody can figure out how to make it economical at an industrial level, is to apply the Sabatier process to CO2 and H2 to produce methane, which could then be returned to the NG economy. http://bit.ly/ZoAcjX
    27 May 2013, 10:44 AM Reply Like
  • jcrjg
    , contributor
    Comments (172) | Send Message
     
    thotdoc,

     

    How would you rate Axion in terms of team and product? I would say A product and B (if that) CEO. I don't know enough to rate the team but whenever I listen to TG I come away very unimpressed. I feel like he is trying not to give us any information. His whole approach to the call was terrible. He gives very vague opening remarks and then relies on the questions to gives us the real information we need. Even then we don't get real information. For example all we really know about BMW is that the last round of testing is done and they want Axion to work with a battery supplier. We don't know the results of the test. Presumably the results weren't so terrible that BMW wants nothing to do with Axion. The results could still range from "the PbC is a truly great product and the only issue remaining is the large scale manufacturing" to "we see some promise but you have to work out these issues and you need to do that with an experienced partner". I feel like the assumption here is that the results of the test were very positive but I would be interested in peoples thoughts on why the results couldn't be there still needs to be more development work before thinking about manufacturing.

     

    Some of this may just be where the company is, but that means that they are not really a commercial company. TG's efforts to make them seem further along than they are damages his credibility with me. If they were really further along they would find some way to say something more about the future revenue and timing without violating NDAs.

     

    IIndelco's question about why they didn't release all of this "positive" news before the fundraising has been bothering me. I cannot think of a good answer to this, other than if you really think about it the news is not very positive.

     

    Thanks.
    27 May 2013, 10:51 AM Reply Like
  • Keyboard
    , contributor
    Comments (67) | Send Message
     
    Let's see, as a followup to the OT
    three unknown readers of the forum
    clicked “like” to the incorrect correction.

     

    It is a good bet that none of those hasty clickers were members of our forum's corps of medical doctors.

     

    In an ideal world, anyone who mis-advised John on that very minor subject and has a penchant for error would have no responsibility for advising John on major subjects (such as health care).
    28 May 2013, 02:06 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Perhaps East Penn is doing a little expanding into export markets. Not too sure what kind of footprint they have outside NA but exporting to Asia? Maybe times are a changing w/ the USD adjustments.

     

    DEKA batteries arrive in Brunei

     

    http://bit.ly/13RNMf0
    -
    Found this site that gives a feel for energy storage company coverage around the world. I'm sure it's not all inclusive but a good ref.

     

    http://bit.ly/18pZtup
    25 May 2013, 09:27 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    American made batteries are held in much higher regard than most of their Asian counterparts so it doesn't really surprise me that East Penn has distribution in Brunei. My bet is that its not a big focus of their business.
    25 May 2013, 09:43 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    After following a few lesser Chinese manufacturers I can understand why in contrast to them. Some of their write offs were down right embarrassing and I saw no trend toward improvement over the course of a couple years. Just like watching CBAK (China BAK battery) in the lithium ion space. DISMAL.
    25 May 2013, 10:13 AM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2382) | Send Message
     
    Where are they now (Fisker edition)? The story gets even weirder

     

    by Katie Fehrenbacher

     

    http://bit.ly/19cUv5F
    25 May 2013, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Interview with BMW i team leader. Gives a few insightful tidbits on their city driving findings but also just a taste of why carbon fiber for structural elements. This perspective offers a small glimpse of how things like the introduction of something like PbC from afar seems simple but there really are many aux. impacts to consider. Obviously carbon fiber is huge by comparison but still even smaller changes have wide reaching ramifications. Good and bad. Also, in the case of carbon fiber, note the time frames the auto makers are thinking in for some programs.

     

    Small BMW team rethought electric cars for huge cities

     

    http://bit.ly/110mizK
    25 May 2013, 03:12 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4605) | Send Message
     
    HYGS has an impressive list of partners to assist them in success much easier than some others.
    25 May 2013, 06:51 PM Reply Like
  • dlmca
    , contributor
    Comments (334) | Send Message
     
    Mr Investor

     

    Thanks on OHRP. Will have a good look
    26 May 2013, 09:40 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2476) | Send Message
     
    dlmca,

     

    No problemo. Please let me know what you find/think.

     

    Shockingly, the Yahoo blog actually seems civilized and adds some value.

     

    I have not mentioned any other stk opportunities here, but this one was particularly intriguing. I should disclose that I recently opened a small position, based on a recommendation of my wife's eye Dr., and an admittedly small amt of due dilly so far.
    26 May 2013, 04:54 PM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (214) | Send Message
     
    So what happens when/if AXION does reach an acceptable agreement with another battery manufacturer?

     

    Will that manufacturer build PbC's exclusively for BMW?
    That would seem to be pretty limiting to such a partner, they would then become subject to the whims of BMW after making some substantial investment in infrastructure (equipment/training/in...

     

    Will the new maker, if no exclusivity to BMW, begin marketing and sales outside of automotive?

     

    Will the new maker share some tech info on their iterations of PbC batteries (including different models and pricing) or will the PbC remain the elusive enigma?

     

    What modifications might they employ in their version of a PbC battery (additives, different separators, different cathodes...) or will they be limited to the AXION model of battery?

     

    Would they have excess capacity (beyond BMW's needs) and could they then pass on possible economies of scale to other consumers (individuals or other OEM's)? That is, who will control pricing of their PbC?

     

    Would two such "partnerships" be more beneficial, for example GM demanded a second source agreement and refused to utilize the second source that BMW sought? Or would such further tighten a noose around AXION's control of margins, quality standards, model offerings?

     

    Any ideas as to the benefits or risks of this second source requirement to the stockholders, beyond the PR and some actual sales. The benefits to BMW are somewhat clear, though they may regret their wish if source 2 doesn't maintain the same quality/design as AXION has provided for the whole test cycle these last several years.

     

    26 May 2013, 10:28 AM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (495) | Send Message
     
    42itus: Others might attempt to answer your question in detail, but I'll attempt a quick answer. These kind of arrangements happen all the time (think all the feeder facilities near a major assembly facility). The hardest part of the agreement will likely be the part between Axion and the other battery manufacturer regarding the carbon sheeting and electrode processes. The rest, I would think, is pretty straightforward. The production from the facility will likely be exclusively for BMW bound by a long-term contract with BMW.

     

    I'm sure manufacturing learning-curve effects will be permitted post-electrode, but I would doubt (and hope) that the partner would have access to the carbon-sheeting process and hopefully the electrode process as well UNLESS Axion somehow fails to deliver due to financial problems or manufacturing quantity, quality, price short-comings. That is probably our main area of concern.

     

    If GM wanted a second source, that would be a completely separate arrangement even if they chose the same company BMW chooses.

     

    My interpretation of your concerns is that you fear that the battery partner will effectively run amok with the license and sell PbCs everywhere. I'm sure that won't happen. However, I'm sure all Axionistas are concerned that the partner will have some access to the technology, even if Axion meets all its performance requirements.
    26 May 2013, 10:52 AM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (214) | Send Message
     
    apmarshall62,

     

    "My interpretation of your concerns is that you fear that the battery partner will effectively run amok with the license and sell PbCs everywhere. I'm sure that won't happen. However, I'm sure all Axionistas are concerned that the partner will have some access to the technology, even if Axion meets all its performance requirements."

     

    To be honest, I am not sure if this is my fear or my hope! Some part of the marketing and sales criticisms of AXION could be dramatically altered (yes, good or bad--another great unknown).

     

    The AXION model, as I understand it, would be for AXION to become a supplier of C electrodes for incorporation into other battery manufacturers batteries. My assumption has been that the rest of the battery design and manufacturing processes would be at the will of the other battery maker. AXION might stipulate certain standards, pricing, sales relations be limited if the battery is to include the 'coveted' AXION InSide sticker.

     

    JP's concern seems to be the parameters of the financial arrangement of this first 'partnership/license' as it will become a model for future agreements. Mine would be how palatable other manufacturers might find such agreements if they are going to hamstring them to awaiting AXION to develop a specific customer for them. Or limiting them from differentiating their iteration of PbC AGM battery from another. Marketing is about why I should buy product A rather than B in terms separate from mere pricing differences. It is hard for me to see enthusiasm among battery manufacturers to take on a new tech AND onerous dictates from the supplier.

     

    Finally, lacking another strategy, I want this SECRET battery to become known, and have admired the open source model to get a tech adopted. Apple chose the alternative, but they were first with a concept, personal computers, and it still almost caused its' death. AXION is not introducing the first PbA battery, just a better version of one for certain applications. And as it remains so limited in exposure we are subject to AXION discovering those applications, rather than application/concepts seeking the PbC to solve their needs.
    26 May 2013, 12:05 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    APM: "that the partner would have access to the carbon-sheeting process"

     

    did you mean "would NOT"?

     

    HardToLove
    26 May 2013, 01:17 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    HTL, The whole sentence reads would not have access IMO.

     

    "but I would doubt (and hope) that the partner would have access to the carbon-sheeting process and hopefully the electrode process as well UNLESS Axion somehow fails to deliver due to financial problems or manufacturing quantity, quality, price short-comings."
    26 May 2013, 01:25 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    APM: "... you fear that the battery partner will effectively run amok with the license and sell PbCs everywhere".

     

    I suspect that the "sell everywhere" will come not from this first battery supplier, but from the regulators JP has referenced so many times that will mandate adoption of the technology once it becomes widely available at scale,

     

    Once this first plant is up and running, the "at scale" perimeter has been breached because it's been demonstrated that the technology to make a part of the s/s emissions system last the way it should can be adopted and manufactured at scale by any of the "standard" AGM-producing manufacturers. At that point the regulators can say "Why aren't you making an s/s system that operates the way it's supposed to for the life of the system?". And then they can say "Have that fixed by such-and-such date or face the fines we will levy".

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    26 May 2013, 01:29 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: yeah, the "(and hope)" got me there.

     

    HardToLove
    26 May 2013, 05:12 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    42itus1, All things to be documented and agreed to by all 3 (or more) parties in the contract. What design latitude do the partners have? Markets (customers, regions, products) to be serviced by the battery manufacturer? Volumes? Information sharing? Future service sales? Warranties? Partner obligations should things go wrong? Tons of things to cover in the contract. I'm sure there are templates.
    26 May 2013, 10:58 AM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (214) | Send Message
     
    iindelco, John Petersen, et al, I understand and agree that it is all in the 'fine print and BOLD HEADINGS', but I was wondering after taking my Axionista hat off, what considerations might be in play and what would the possible ramifications be to the potential JV or Licensee of getting hooked up to the PbC. Additionally how different scenarios might benefit or hurt me, an Axionista.

     

    Some would say it is fruitless to speculate as to the terms and I would agree that I can't know all of the considerations in play. However, this stock is a speculative play and virtually all the discussion here is speculative. I am not trying to throw out managements expertise or efforts, but since I have to speculatively interpret their actions when I finally hear of them, I am trying to prep myself for such an endeavor. When I am trying to maintain my optimism about the AXION story, I also look for 'icing on the cake' outcomes when this JV/licensing agreement is created.

     

    JP's notion of "The whole idea is to leverage the existing battery plants, leverage the existing customer base, leverage the existing marketing and distribution networks and provide a high-value component to a small number of battery manufacturers instead of selling batteries to end users." is a fantastic, logical and clearly beneficial strategy for me. However, like many here, the frustration level awaiting this strategy to pan out has me wondering if there is not another equally satisfying strategy that might become a part of this new second source push! Plan B's are assumed to be less than Plan A, but when Plan A stumbles for whatever reason shouldn't a good business entity be ready to go with a thoughtful Plan B.

     

    I for one would be OK with a new turn and would not be at all critical of such a flexible response if deemed needed/beneficial. I don't feel the compulsion to beat up management and feel they have done relatively well at their job without any of my ideas or preferences. My nature of compulsive loyalty has gotten me into much trouble before and I am not likely to avoid that outcome every time. I do hope my faith is not totally misplaced this time.
    26 May 2013, 04:21 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    42itus1, For me I see only 2 primary paths in automotive. Axion licensing the processes for carbon sheeting/electrode assembly and any other supportive technology to an automotive supplier. Or Axion, in some fashion, keeping control of the sheeting manufacturing only / maybe the carbon electrode assembly and scaling with an automotive supplier. I just don't think there is enough incentive for someone else to want to crack into this market as a virgin entrant.

     

    My preference, If Axion feels they can achieve a high degree of assurance with contracts, would be for Axion to just license everything out with phased volume expectations and be done with automotive. Worst case, if there is risk of losing control, keep the sheeting process only. Why? Axion adds nothing to the manufacturing process other than what they have developed in technical knowledge as it relates to the product. They are not a manufacturing expert. Let the experts take the assembly process, tune it and scale it for automotive. Take the capital and improve the product and go after the markets that offer far greater returns. Maybe also in the agreement the automotive supplier back feeds their assembly process improvements which Axion can launch for other markets. Any improvements to the product can be offered via future agreements should Axion make technology improvements to the product.

     

    Or Axion can ignore automotive and find a non OE AGM supplier and scale for other markets. Or go it alone with what they have until they can pretty themselves up with some added NS business and some other markets that might develop. Keep throwing around nickles and try to grow organically. A far harder method but not impossible if the product is as good as we think. This I fear would limit the upside and the timing of the eventual return for the stakeholders though. And it adds risk because competitors will not stand still. It's always better to scale quickly with technology when it's needed and it has the most advantage.
    26 May 2013, 05:20 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    Since I helped develop Plan A and am thrilled at the way things are coming together it's probably best if I avoid discussions of possible Plan Bs because I think we took at look at all of the and decided they wouldn't work.
    26 May 2013, 06:42 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    I'd expect Axion to retain a good deal of control over technical issues and carefully define the scope of the cooperation to specific manufacturing plants and applications. While BMW might get an exclusive for some period of time, those kinds of rights usually come with minimum volume requirements.

     

    It helps if you take off your Axionista hat and put yourself in the position of a battery manufacturer who wants to serve his customer and improve his bottom line.

     

    We can guess at what a relationship might look like, but it's all conjecture till there's a contract in place.

     

    FWIW I always assumed that Axion would work itself into a position where it had two or even three manufacturing partners in each of its principal markets, North America, Europe and Asia.
    26 May 2013, 11:03 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... Can you see Axion w/ battery OEM selling the PbC within a region beyond the specified originating customer, BMW, to better utilize capacity? General sale to the public or to another company not in the same segment as, say, BMW or another customer within or without the region and not a direct competitor with one that has exclusivity.

     

    I guess I'm asking whose battery is it coming off the line and just how limited can a BMW or Axion make sales.
    26 May 2013, 11:36 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    John, BMW and the rest like your assumption concerning multiple suppliers in various regions. :)

     

    I don't see BMW looking to get anything exclusive from Axion and their potential partner. It think governments really frown upon OEM's trying to lock themselves into advantage by buying suppliers via direct investment or contracts to exclude technology from their competitors. Especially when it comes to emissions technology.
    26 May 2013, 11:39 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    Axion can make the field of use as narrow or broad as the circumstances and its bargaining power warrant. Automotive battery plants are frequently single product line facilities that don't have much flexibility beyond a handful of case sizes.

     

    Ultimately minimum purchase requirements will play a crucial role. If BMW is ready to buy everything a JV produces it's one thing. If they want rubber in their purchase requirements, then the JV needs the power to peddle its wares elsewhere.
    26 May 2013, 11:41 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... And that is where all the squawking about sales on this forum confuses me. The business model that Axion has had for years is to push the sales force off to the battery OEM. Meanwhile, Axion's duty is marketing to nurture adopters & technical support of applications. Getting proof of concept prototypes in front of the public & markets is the primary job Axion has to do. Hopefully this process will push demand beyond New Castle's ability to produce and why I've been looking for such a thing as a manufacturing agreement for years now.

     

    Have I gotten this wrong?

     

    The shareholder push to see battery sales out of New Castle is justified but not on the end-user product production side. I see it as poor marketing to expand the niche adopter count. I guess you can only do so much with as little money as Axion has so servicing those customers that come to them is the best use of the money. With things finally falling into place, years after I'd thought they would, I'll be interested in seeing Axion not only improving the known landscape but marketing to find those users that don't know they need the product. Something I've felt has been sorely lacking for at least the past 3 years.
    26 May 2013, 12:08 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    Your description aligns very well with my understanding of the strategy. Axion wants to create customer demand in major markets that will force manufacturers that want to keep their customers to adopt the PbC technology on Axion's terms. The whole idea is to leverage the existing battery plants, leverage the existing customer base, leverage the existing marketing and distribution networks and provide a high-value component to a small number of battery manufacturers instead of selling batteries to end users.

     

    Axion's direct sales can be used as an indicator of how the strategy is playing out, but the OEM relationships are far more important even if they don't generate significant current sales.
    26 May 2013, 12:19 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2382) | Send Message
     
    "Automotive battery plants are frequently single product line facilities that don't have much flexibility beyond a handful of case sizes."

     

    As I recall, there's been a lot of AGM plant creation/expansion in the last couple years. What are the odds that there is a "line" in a couple of existing plants that aren't actually being used much, or used little enough that its current usage could be shifted to another set of lines that likewise aren't maxed out? While I'm sure they've worked very hard on predictions of demand, and do their best not to spend money before required, I doubt they've been perfect given the worldwide economic uncertainties. (I'm thinking Exide here for example!)

     

    Likewise, might there be existing plants with "unused" space available that was planned for the expected AGM "boom" that hasn't quite come? (Thinking USA in particular where start-stop hasn't gained as much traction as in Europe.) Space for an electrode line?

     

    So might the first "show me" contract not require quite as much investment by the partners as we might imagine, e.g., not having to build a new "plant."

     

    Do we really think BMW is going to do a massive switch to the PbC? Somewhat hard to predict ... I'm sure companies like Bosch will play a big role in what amount of product they require to be contracted before THEY create their new production lines as well ... even if they're trying to create this new market nearly as much as we are! Someone like Bosch may turn out to be our best marketing team member :-)

     

    BTW, does Bosch ever do "loss leaders" in attempting to create new product markets?

     

    Does anyone know if Bosch manufactures batteries in the US? Wherever they do, do they make them in their own plants or do they subcontract it out to someone else?

     

    Could you imagine Bosch telling JCI (as it's subcontractor) to make them some PbC batteries!
    26 May 2013, 01:43 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    WTB, Here's an older document that gives a little North American perspective on Bosch.

     

    http://bit.ly/11jr5Lj

     

    I wouldn't expect them to build commodity batteries in the US. Maybe if things really got ugly at Exide they would buy assets to make a move if they could make sense of it inclusive of AGM, PbC plus a little flooded and gel for flexibility? They are a great company. Not having to answer to stock holders and the uber smart money folks gives you a great advantage. Especially in areas that require long term investments.
    26 May 2013, 02:02 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    Wtb: One thing that I think will help on the expansion front is that uptake of the PbC will displace some "pure" AGM demand. A little at first and a lot more down the road. So the way I see it is if battery mfg A is selling 50K AGM batteries a year to BMW, that might reduce to 40K and PbC might take 10K of that. Now IIUC and IIRC correctly, the lines that assemble the batteries are unchanged and we just replace a stack of lead electrodes with a stack of C electrodes. I assume a little tweaking of the lines to allow for differences in weight or other factors I'm unaware of.

     

    Another change appears in the "formation" process as the PbCs require ~24 hours for that process, IIRC.

     

    As to "massive switch", ISTR that introduction in a limited product line would be the first step, so maybe something on the order of 5K-10K would be the first demand? Other product lines would follow.

     

    HardToLove
    26 May 2013, 02:16 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    WTB> from what I'm hearing the new AGM capacity is fully booked by customers who want to upgrade to AGM but can't get the batteries in relevant volumes.
    26 May 2013, 02:22 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2323) | Send Message
     
    JP,

     

    Will Axion be in a position to produce some AGM batteries in the same way they have the flooded contract from East Penn. Would demand be so great that Axion would install/convert lines for this?
    26 May 2013, 04:55 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Bazooooka, I'll not speak for anyone else but for me I'd like Axion to get to a size where they can keep one AGM line in this plant for the development of advances on the PbC and get out of the LAB business completely. Plain old LAB suppliers are a dime a dozen. Suppliers with far better resources than Axion are going out of business often. It's been a great asset for development and to shoulder some of the costs required to keep the facilities running and open for PbC development. But once PbC starts to scale, If they find the right partners for the various markets, the LAB side of the business becomes a liability.
    26 May 2013, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2323) | Send Message
     
    ii,

     

    I agree with that logic. LAB business is not exciting and hence our 2 bit stock price.

     

    I'm just trying to reconcile the talk of AGM supply shortfall and the idea that Axion sent some batteries off to Germany that weren't PbC.

     

    Since Dr. Buiel doesn't believe those batteries were PbC http://bit.ly/113C4Ni - I was hoping maybe Axion had found another revenue opportunity in AGM to help us while we wait on the Big Fish.

     

    Outside of that, why would Axion be sending non-PbC batteries for third party testing?
    26 May 2013, 06:07 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Bazooooka, Still waiting on a response from Dr. Buiel regarding PBC vs AMG testing. I can see no reason for them testing PbC other than what was already discussed. AGM makes zero sense to me.
    26 May 2013, 06:23 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2105) | Send Message
     
    WTB,

     

    "As I recall, there's been a lot of AGM plant creation/expansion in the last couple years. What are the odds that there is a "line" in a couple of existing plants that aren't actually being used much, or used little enough that its current usage could be shifted to another set of lines that likewise aren't maxed out? "

     

    The odds are clearly in our favor if we are considering the Columbus flat plate AGM plant or the idled Bristol plant of Exide:
    http://1.usa.gov/tyzgdI

     

    How easily could a spiral wound plant be converted to produce PbC batteries?
    26 May 2013, 06:24 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    Bazooka> New Castle has two flooded lines and one AGM line. The combined permitted capacity is 3,000 batteries per day. I don't know what the breakdown between flooded and AGM is, but Axion has substantial unused AGM manufacturing capacity that we always held in reserve for prototype work on the PbC and eventual production of PbC batteries for high value markets.
    26 May 2013, 06:44 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2323) | Send Message
     
    JP,

     

    Do you think Axion would do VRLA batteries with the idle AGM capacity as they await PbC orders? Would East Penn throw us another bone like they've done with "flooded"?

     

    I guess I'm confused about the batteries Axion sent to Germany and what the purpose of that action was if it wasn't PbC related. Dr. Bueil's insightful answers often seem to raise more questions that weren't pondered before.
    26 May 2013, 06:53 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    I think Axion is holding the AGM line in reserve for its own needs. You can't sign a contract to make batteries for somebody else without sacrificing the right to make them for yourself. I'd be very surprised if Axion entered into a straight AGM supply contract.
    26 May 2013, 07:09 PM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (214) | Send Message
     
    John Petersen, Can you provide any clarity regarding the 3K/day limit. I have assumed this was a Land Use restriction (zoning) which sets a limit on certain industries or commercial uses based on presumed vehicular traffic from employees and deliveries... Or local concerns about environmental quality considerations. These are typically referred to as 'Conditional Use Permits' in my neck of the woods (and text/law books). My assumption was that this restriction was a local (city or county) stipulation which could relatively easily be revisited if needed. State DEQ restrictions are a bit more complex (difficult) to modify.

     

    This 3K/day limit probably came with the factory and the restrictions have been grandfathered. Of course grandfathered clauses are sometimes looser than current ones so maybe they would not want to revisit them for fear of greater restrictions.

     

    Battery manufacture has surely changed with the mechanization (robotics) of the industry so some restrictions may be quite outdated. And Fed., if not State, environmental standards have become much tighter in the Pb industries. Hopefully AXION is a 'Green' employer and manufacturer along with creating a 'Green' Product.

     

    Also, the restrictions may only be for finished batteries rather than battery components (especially non Pb components). If this is true then they could be unlimited in the number of electrodes they create per day. That is other than floor space, capital and equipment.
    26 May 2013, 07:28 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    It's my understanding that the battery plant was built and permitted for a working capacity of 3,000 batteries per day from two flooded battery lines and one AGM line.

     

    The carbon electrode assemblies are made at a separate facility and are not subject to the production permits at the battery plant. As far as I know, Axion could make electrode assemblies for millions of batteries per year without significant permitting issues.
    26 May 2013, 09:17 PM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (214) | Send Message
     
    Thank You
    26 May 2013, 09:58 PM Reply Like
  • anthlj
    , contributor
    Comments (227) | Send Message
     
    If the 2010 Maxwell/Continental AG/PSA Peugeot-Citroen deal serves as a rough template for any Axion/AGM manufacturer/BMW deal, what can we expect on deal dynamics, transparency to investors?

     

    Number of units to be sold over X years?
    Value to Axion over X years?
    Ability of Maxwell/Continental AG to engage in other sales deals?

     

    Does anyone have these insights to hand?

     

    Thanks
    26 May 2013, 11:53 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    There will be at least as much transparency as there is in the Maxwell-Continental product and probably more because Axion's future partners will have to spend money on plant and equipment and that kind of dynamic doesn't exist for Maxwell which could find itself out in the cold if Continental got a wild hair and decided to use somebody else's 2,400 Farad supercapacitor modules.
    26 May 2013, 12:22 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Anthlj, Generally, from what I've seen, If it's a commodity product like a flooded LAB they might announce supply to a specific plant or plants. Sometimes they add a contract magnitude number in unit sales expectations but these obviously have a range of possibilities based on market acceptance for the plants products.

     

    For something more unique like the PbC battery they might often define a target platform and specify standard or optional equipment. Could also state that platform only or also state expected growth to other programs without too much detail. It really depends on if the OEM wants to protect some level of future business plans.

     

    Giving out dollar amounts other than VERY broad directional info. is shunned. Pricing in the auto component market is very proprietary. When GM's head of purchasing ran off to VW with their pricing/supplier information all heck broke loose.
    26 May 2013, 12:11 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (828) | Send Message
     
    Electric car startup Better Place liquidating after $850 million investment
    In 2008, Better Place partnered with Renault to build an electric car and create a system of battery swapping stations, but the concept never gained momentum.

     

    http://cnet.co/10z0wDf
    26 May 2013, 12:35 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (7607) | Send Message
     
    To be accurate BP was not an "electric car startup" since they didn't make EVs. They were a charge and swap service provider that never had a chance of succeeding.
    27 May 2013, 08:17 AM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (828) | Send Message
     
    OT: I very much dislike QE, so I guess it's not too difficult for me to find articles supporting my own personal bias. The following link goes to a fairly in-depth Seeking Alpha article on seven reasons the author dislikes QE.

     

    http://bit.ly/1121k3w

     

    Here's his concluding thoughts:

     

    QE is making things worse, not better. Nearly all of us want the global economy to recover and investment markets to sustainably thrive. And those who oppose QE believe that continuously flooding the financial system with liquidity is doing far more harm than good in trying to achieve this goal. It is effectively inserting the government into investment markets. It is taxing certain market participants and forcing them to take on more risk than is appropriate in an ongoing attempt to support others, some of which were direct contributors to the crisis that caused the problems with which we are still dealing with today. And instead of promoting greater market stability, QE is distorting prices across many market segments and encouraging a more reactive short-term approach to portfolio management.

     

    In addition, the fact that markets are increasingly driven by the words spoken by Fed policy makers over underlying fundamentals and technicals only adds to the distrust. Until policy makers finally allow the economy and markets to cleanse themselves and find their true equilibria, this post crisis period of uncertainty and instability will persist. And this will occur no matter how much the stock market is artificially inflated in the process along the way.
    26 May 2013, 01:22 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    WIO, It effectively gives the trouble makers a bigger line of credit and thus more power. How is that ever good over the long term for anyone but them and the gamers? Well at least I haven't seen them label it with a sustainability tag. Yet.

     

    Keep the empire intact at all costs. For the good of err umm, oh yeah, The People.

     

    OK, No more from me. :(
    26 May 2013, 01:36 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    Here are a few news items that touch on some the topics of discussion I've seen in the past few days. Just general interests FYI type stuff.

     

    I don't recall seeing much in the way of the market number that ePower is playing into so here is the latest I can find for Class 8 tractor manufacturing. A total 23,200 units in April, up 36 percent yoy & 16,740 units for Class 5-7. Figure about 5 to 10% of this number is in some stage of the rebuild cycle and I don't see why ePower shouldn't get to 200 a month. I am just spit-balling here but hoping ePower should be good for $13M ($45M revenue) per year to Axion.

     

    http://bit.ly/12WKw0V

     

    Then there was discussion about excess electrical power available in Canada & the part Hydrogenics Corp (HYGS) might play. I'm thinking time shifting storage in some other form than H2 is a better idea but anyway ....

     

    http://bit.ly/ZmPo0W

     

    And for those thrilled about NatGas replacing coal for electrical generation, hold on a minute. I've been looking at the rebuilds going on locally and they are going dual fuel.

     

    http://read.bi/12WKw0Y

     

    The rails should continue to pick up traffic. Maybe they'll need some switchers, hope
    26 May 2013, 02:00 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    DRich: going dual-fuel is smart as the long-term effect of exporting our energy resources, as the E & P folks want to do and the administration seems to support, will inevitably raise NG price beyond what would occur if most were kept and used here at home. Other effects on the economy, including the potential for chopping off the nascent "on-shoring" of jobs, are beyond relevancy here. Of course, those producing and exporting will do well.

     

    Anyway, for a very reasonable incremental cost, being able to switch between fuels to take advantage of $/BTU differences will help them get the best results.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    26 May 2013, 02:25 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2099) | Send Message
     
    HTL: How do you "dual fuel" a gas turbine? Of course a modern steam plant using water at critical temp/pressure might be able to achieve decent efficiency vs a gas turbine. Maybe. I don't believe that tech is all that well tested.

     

    Gassifying the coal first with O2 and sending the cleaned up gas stream to a gas turbine might work. But that requires substantial infrastructure to be efficient. Thermal energy will be lost along the line before the turbine combustion chambers, I believe.
    26 May 2013, 07:38 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    >siliconhillbilly ... I wish I could definitively answer your; "How do you "dual fuel" a gas turbine?", but I'm not sure how exactly this is done. The typical design has heat exchangers protecting the turbine gas circuit from the particulate fuel. I've found no less than 5, possibly 6+, designs for simple & combined cycle gas turbine plants usually build in parallel like these examples (there are more).

     

    http://bit.ly/16jnZA2

     

    I'm talking here about the base load central station generators. Texas has several of these but a whole lot more "peakers". I include a list of the turbine generators here (can't delineate the two ... sorry)

     

    http://bit.ly/12HxG4U

     

    and a list of fuels used and where.

     

    http://bit.ly/16jnZA4

     

    The part of this dual fuel generation systems that is a big mystery to me is the operations procedure to balance fuel usage by availability & cost.

     

    As an added bonus I'm including a patent application that I know nothing about the invention under consideration but has a description of a particulate combustor & some historic perspective of previous & existing systems.

     

    http://bit.ly/112EVDb
    26 May 2013, 09:28 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    SHB: Relating to CPST MTs, from what I recall in a long-ago CPST discussion, they add a second injector (one for gaseous fuels & the other for liquid) and supporting plumbing, control units ... and software mods. Currently the units come from the factory with the customer's pre-selected choice (any gaseous or any liquid fuel).

     

    This would also require an additional port in the casing for the sleeve and injector (my assumption - I don't see a concentric arrangement being likely), so there's some engineering needed to assure thermal stress is still handled (dimensional tolerances maintained) and mechanical strength is maintained. Probably some CFD work needed too to make sure the fuel/air flow continues to behave well throughout the operating range.

     

    Once all that is designed, tested, ... I'm guessing that a single-fuel unit would just have a plug in the second port, but then could probably be field-upgraded if desired.

     

    One thing I've not heard discussed is if the exhaust handling and/or recuperator would need more work. This comes to mind because of the difference that might exist in energy content and resulting exhaust temperature difference. But I suspect that's not a concern since the same recuperator and exhaust plumbing is used on both the liquid and gas configured units now.

     

    HardToLove
    27 May 2013, 07:55 AM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2099) | Send Message
     
    HTL: I was thinking of coal and NG as the "dual".

     

    Any purely liquid hydrocarbon should be relatively simple to use. Preheating the fuel above some temp before spraying it into the inlet air should work well. Ultrasonic vaporizing nozzles?
    27 May 2013, 03:47 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    SHB: Oh! Your thinking of the baseload gas turbines? Way beyond anything I've had an interest in learning so far.

     

    HardToLove
    27 May 2013, 04:19 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    I'm wondering if Dr. Buiel is familiar with these guys and their technology. They are claiming patents in major markets. I'm hearing this is not possible on the Axion side. So which is it? What don't I understand?

     

    Green-car battery charges into finals

     

    " The company has patented its lead carbon AACarbon battery for micro-hybrid cars, and the processes to make it. Safeguarding its IP took a lot of effort, especially as ArcActive had to patent its technology in quite a large fraction of the world markets.

     

    ArcActive first unveiled its smart battery technology last year at the 2012 Clean Equity conference in Monaco, where the company won an award for Excellence in the Environmental Technology Research and attracted attention from a host of potential international investors and partners."

     

    http://bit.ly/ZmSKRB
    26 May 2013, 02:12 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    I met with ArcActive at the ELBC. Their technology is a novel way to make activated carbon at a cost of about $10 per pound.

     

    They're at least a decade behind Axion, have never built a battery and have no ability to develop a lead-carbon battery that doesn't infringe Axion's patents.
    26 May 2013, 02:28 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    >JP ... So, if per chance, demand for the PbC exceeds or some sort of supply constraint ever presents itself in the coconut husk charcoal market, could these guys be a source of carbon? Could they be a good candidate for a license agreement?
    26 May 2013, 02:34 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    John,

     

    Yes, I know we've had this conversation before and your impression remains consistent. So are these guys lying? They claim patents in major markets. How can this be? All of their releases are basically PbC with, as you suggest, another source of C. Why are they getting accolades from government sources for reinventing the wheel?

     

    Maybe Axion should move to New Zealand. They get crystal statues and we get crumbs and the longest finger! (Well sometimes it feels that way.)

     

    Understand the learning curve timing all too well!
    26 May 2013, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4421) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... I did a search of ArcActive's patents, of which they claim a total of 1, and found ZERO.

     

    Claimed US Patent/Application No. 20130004842

     

    http://bit.ly/11jvCgQ

     

    http://bit.ly/GLtKcw;jsessionid=96132F0F38...

     

    Maybe I'm doing this wrong or someone is blowing smoke.
    26 May 2013, 03:08 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    Looks to me like a set-up for patent-violation claims to try and get some $ from folks ahead of them might be in the offing. If not, looking to the auto industry to help them commercialize it would lead to a very long road I think, based on what we've observed here.

     

    HardToLove
    26 May 2013, 03:15 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    "we get crumbs and the longest finger"

     

    At our age, colonoscopies are supposed to be done regularly. I assume the latest technology will replace that digit somewhere down the road?

     

    HardToLove
    26 May 2013, 03:18 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Thanks DRich!

     

    Under latest publications in your supplied link the claimed methods looks like they are suggesting a battery electrode manufacturing method that attaches Pb to the fibers of at least one of the two elecrodes? If this is for the anode then it's not like PbC but more in the FireFly category. Maybe this is what they are up to and thus it's not in violation of Axions patents. But who knows?
    26 May 2013, 03:26 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    HTL, I'd love an advancement to something less invasive! LOL
    (Every ten years after age 50 or more frequent depending on family history?)

     

    Not sure if the little cameras that you swallow will suffice? Hope so.
    26 May 2013, 03:34 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco> They have patents for making carbon that they think will be useful in batteries. When they start taking carbon from their patented process and combining it with lead and sulfuric acid, they run smack into the Axion patents.

     

    Axion might want to be an ArcActive customer if their carbon meets Axion's performance specifications, but ArcActive will never be a competitor.
    26 May 2013, 06:47 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2099) | Send Message
     
    John, ArcActive may be treading water while looking for some technology that does NOT use lead and sulfuric acid. Maybe one of the aqueous (sodium salt, etc.) energy storage technologies or a lithium variant. If they can tailor their pore size for a specific application, they might supply the preferred electrode material ( vs. activated bio-carbon or graphite) to some battery tech company.
    26 May 2013, 07:10 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (828) | Send Message
     
    A physician claimed the following are actual comments made by his patients (predominately male) while he was performing their colonoscopies:

     

    1. 'Take it easy, Doc. You're boldly
    going where no man has gone before!'

     

    2. 'Find Amelia Earhart yet?'

     

    3. 'Can you hear me NOW?'

     

    4. 'Are we there yet? Are we there yet?
    Are we there yet?'

     

    5. 'You know, in Arkansas , we're now
    legally married.'

     

    6. 'Any sign of the trapped miners,
    Chief?'

     

    7. 'You put your left hand in, you take
    your left hand out...'

     

    8. 'Hey! Now I know how a Muppet
    feels!'

     

    9. 'If your hand doesn't fit, you must
    quit!'

     

    10. 'Hey Doc, let me know if you find my
    dignity.'

     

    11. 'You used to be an executive at
    Enron, didn't you?'

     

    12. 'God, now I know why I am not gay.

     

    And the best one of all.

     

    13. 'Could you write a note for my wife
    saying that my head is not up there?'
    26 May 2013, 10:54 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Thanks John,

     

    My perspective is you're surely right. I just keep scratching my head watching them make certain claims and also seeing them get awards in the same documents. Public fodder I guess.
    27 May 2013, 12:57 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    WIO, I agree with the last being the best. Thanks!
    27 May 2013, 12:59 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    JP: IIRC, one of the advantages of the carbon used by AXPW was varying pore size, which was an advantage, not a disadvantage? IIUC, manufactured substitutes have a uniform size that doesn't work quite as well?

     

    HardToLove
    27 May 2013, 08:00 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    WIO: Good ones!

     

    HardToLove
    27 May 2013, 08:01 AM Reply Like
  • magounsq
    , contributor
    Comments (967) | Send Message
     
    WiO

     

    Good OT break!
    27 May 2013, 01:06 PM Reply Like
  • renim
    , contributor
    Comments (1046) | Send Message
     
    neat, ArcActive eliminates the metallic current collector and the associated longevity issues that arise from relying on a conductive barrier layer to provide protection.

     

    It also seems half their claims were cancelled, and that the other half of the claims remain.
    27 May 2013, 08:26 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Renim, Well that would be worth a ton of money. :)
    28 May 2013, 12:07 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    05/24/2013: EOD stuff partially copied from instablog (up in !1 hour).
    # Trds: 49, MinTrSz: 131, MaxTrSz: 20000, Vol 161897, AvTrSz: 3304
    Min. Pr: 0.2602, Max Pr: 0.2690, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.2646
    # Buys, Shares: 24 61509, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.2657
    # Sells, Shares: 25 100388, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.2639
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 1:1.63 (38% “buys”), DlyShts 56184 (34.7%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 55.97%

     

    For the second day in a row we had an AH trade, 6K, below the close. Manipulation is suspected. See this comment. http://seekingalpha.co....

     

    Average trade size continues to sit at the bottom of the barrel with the advent of the more active market-makers. I don't believe price is going anywhere fast while this condition holds. However, combined with the extremely low volume, it does present an opportunity for those that would like to manipulate price in either direction. I believe this because I think these small trade sizes indicate many fewer “normal” trade fills of size that would force market-makers to help maintain some price range that allowed them to fill larger orders and, thereby, make some money, as volume is their bread and butter. Sans the volume and with small trade sizes, a few orders of “size” away from the prevailing price range would entice the market-makers to move price to get the volume going.

     

    The buy:sell remains in normal ranges and all the averages are there as well.

     

    The daily short sales, on a percentage basis, look like they are working towards settling into ranges I believe are more normal, possibly leaving in the past the extremely low values seen recently. Having said that, if we see our recent more active market-makers exit stage-left, the percentages (likely?) would plummet back to single-digits unless some reasonable volume returned, and even that might not do it, depending on from where (which MMs?) the volume comes. But for now all the averages are moving towards what I think are normal, with the 10-day already in that area at 30.75%.

     

    VWAPS are still holding up well, and might even be migrating towards the longer-term averages, albeit quite slowly. The 5, 10, 25, 50, 100 and 200-day averages are, respectively, $0.2612, $0.2548, $0.2498, $0.2602, $0.2908 and $0.2910.

     

    My original experimental inflection point calculations continue their uncoordinated behavior. The one-day change has three periods improving and three deteriorating. The five-day change shows two improved and 4 deteriorated while the average rate of change in those have a three and three split. In summary, going nowhere fast and not indicative of overall weakening or strengthening. My newer version, which includes additional factors, also has the one-day change split three and three. The five-day changes in the periods has only one period showing improvement while five show increasing weakness. The average rate of change of those five-day periods has a split of 2 and 4 strengthening to weakening. The same summary – nowhere fast – applies.

     

    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.
    26 May 2013, 04:14 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2382) | Send Message
     
    Ran across this is checking out Exide's AGM production ... in their last Conference Call:

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    "Andreas Körner - Nomura
    Okay. My other question is about the start-and-stop battery system that JCI has been talking about, the 48-volt system that includes both lead and lithium ion. I believe they provided a time of 2016 when both lithium ion and lead would merge together and provide a 48-volt battery system for start-and-stop applications. Are you – do you guys – are you guys doing everything on that front? Do you guys see that technology take off? And what are your thoughts on that?

     

    Jim Bolch
    I guess what I would say is that there are quite a few different potential systems being discussed by the OEMs to serve the stop/start market. The system you describe is one of many. We’re participating across a number of fronts, as we talked, AGM, but also the MHF solution, which has been very strong with our customers in Europe, certainly at the lower cost point. But also a standpoint of we’ve done some work with Maxwell, with a supercapacity solution. So I think this is going to be a long-term solution and it’s going to depend a lot on the manufacturers and individual applications. But we’re participating across a broad spectrum of them."
    26 May 2013, 08:20 PM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2124) | Send Message
     
    If I had ben on that CC:

     

    Well Jim Bolch- You say your participating across the spectrum but Axion Power is not mentioning you as a partner. Their PbC battery seems to meet all the requirements of the Maxwell system and the 48v JCI system.
    Why did we break away from this great resource?

     

    Ah, the questions no one poses.
    26 May 2013, 09:02 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    Futurist: Your line would get mysteriously dropped.

     

    HardToLove
    27 May 2013, 08:05 AM Reply Like
  • amishelvis
    , contributor
    Comments (143) | Send Message
     
    The last time TG spoke of Exide, I think he said we have our projects they have theirs, and we have some together. I believe this was 15-18 months ago. It might be a good question to TG to see if anything is being done with them at this point.
    27 May 2013, 09:31 AM Reply Like
  • Futurist
    , contributor
    Comments (2124) | Send Message
     
    Amish,
    I suspect that 15-18 months of not saying anything says it all.

     

    By nature I am not an evil person. But Exide does conjure up bad thoughts for me.
    27 May 2013, 08:07 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Renault blindsided by Better Place liquidation

     

    "Renault, which has a lien on the Fluence ZE's batteries, is demanding €65 million as a secured creditor of Better Place."
    -
    "Owners of Fluence ZE cars purchased from Better Place have also petitioned the court for an urgent hearing on the petition for liquidation before a ruling on the appointment of a liquidator, in order to review options for appointing someone to rehabilitate the company and temporarily operate it, instead of liquidating it. The car buyers say that most of the investment in Better Place was through owners' investments, and therefore the debts to creditors are less that the investment in the company. Under the circumstances, the main victims of the company's liquidation will be the car owners, not the creditors.

     

    "The main victims of the company's collapse are the buyers of the cars, who depend on the company for their operation, and are liable to end up in a hopeless situation with the start of liquidation proceedings," state the car owners in their motion."

     

    http://bit.ly/11s4LW4
    27 May 2013, 02:29 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Brookville equipment video.

     

    Brookville Equipment looks to do business with companies in South America

     

    http://bit.ly/11s75fL
    27 May 2013, 02:45 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    “The bottom line of this bill is that, for once, the focus is on the industrial facility who forever have been left out of the mix when demand response and efficiency programs have been developed over the years,” said Jim Korczykowski, President/CEO of ECS, adding “we have been vocal advocates for the industrial and manufacturing sector for the past 12 years relative to these energy and cost saving initiatives, and this is a big step forward".

     

    "Revamped Shaheen-Portman Bill Great Step for Industrial Energy Efficiency"

     

    http://bit.ly/13dKQr1

     

    Thanks to Gene_Genome at Invertorshub for the link.

     

    In the bill text itself (link provided in the article) is "(B) advancement of distributed generation and on-site renewable power generation technologies;" and I sure hope they consider storage needs when all those renewables start popping up.

     

    HardToLove
    27 May 2013, 06:30 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2483) | Send Message
     
    Interesting article about the origins of start-stop ...

     

    http://bit.ly/Zpy9fq
    27 May 2013, 09:52 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2483) | Send Message
     
    Interesting testimony from Scott Dahl, North American Regional President with responsibility for the starters and generators product lines at Bosch on the need to better train our youth for high tech manufacturing.

     

    I'd be interested in finding out what Mr. Dahl thinks about Axion and if it will be able to break into the automotive battery market.

     

    http://1.usa.gov/15dr2Fl
    27 May 2013, 10:16 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (4605) | Send Message
     
    Merkel recommits to 1 M electric cars by 2020

     

    Tesla (NASDAQ: TSLA) is continuing its meteoric rise and crossed above the $100 in pre-open trading Tuesday. Shares last traded at $100.32, up 3.34%.
    The stock could be reacting positively to headlines from Germany that Angela Merkel is sticking with her target of bringing one million electric cars onto German roads by the end of the decade.
    News Provided by Acquire Media CorporationTSLA trading at $101 in pre-mkt

     

    Musk says wants to bring cheaper electric car to mkt.
    http://bit.ly/19iUYmZ

     

    TSLA speaking to Google about SuperCar
    http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    TSLA Superchargers
    http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    and there is more, I have never seen any more articles in one morning other than Apple. This is how you get attention.

     

    Buried in the Merkel comment was a line about including different types of electric tech. I find this interesting timing as to AXPW looking for a supplier.
    28 May 2013, 07:57 AM Reply Like
  • Fancy Pants
    , contributor
    Comments (33) | Send Message
     
    Maya has been MIA lately. Maybe he has lost some patience/interest in the Axion story.
    28 May 2013, 09:16 AM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (968) | Send Message
     
    last time. writing story he promised publisher. i have reported you to SA for moderation.
    28 May 2013, 09:37 AM Reply Like
  • Fancy Pants
    , contributor
    Comments (33) | Send Message
     
    I meant no harm. I scour the concentrators for certain user's posts that I enjoy reading. I always enjoy Maya's comments and thoughts and just noticed that I haven't seen posts from him in a while. Please don't be that quick to judge.
    28 May 2013, 10:03 AM Reply Like
  • Mathieu Malecot
    , contributor
    Comments (968) | Send Message
     
    my bad. i thought you'd asked this before. >.<
    28 May 2013, 04:06 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    I hate the stock price action these days. Stationed around 25-26 cents and keeping bouncing around is truly unnerving....arghhhhhh!!!
    28 May 2013, 09:50 AM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (828) | Send Message
     
    Amouna, I can relate. But for the time being, I have to say I'm pretty content with the price action. Despite all the uncertainty (and fear) leading up to the financing, the pps has stayed in this .25-.26 range in the weeks prior to and subsequent to the financing announcement. So it makes me believe it's now a pretty solid floor.

     

    I actually think we're in somewhat of an ideal position at this time. I don't see any catalysts for a near-term downturn in the pps, and believe it's now a matter of waiting for catalysts to the upside. Axion has a compelling product, and a compelling story, which will either play out (most likely in the in the coming months) or it won't. I very much like the odds that it will, and continue to believe that any stock purchase under .30 is a gift, and an opportunity that will soon be gone for good.
    28 May 2013, 01:52 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    Wayne,

     

    These pps have given many of us a lot of grief over the past year, and I sure hope something comes up real quick that puts a definite floor under the market cap once and for all. Right now, the most plausible is a contract with a major in automotive for multi million dollar revenue a year, and if that comes to pass, the market will start discounting all the trucking and PowerCube programs in the works, and ultimately start climbing.
    28 May 2013, 02:12 PM Reply Like
  • steeleydock
    , contributor
    Comments (30) | Send Message
     
    http://bit.ly/130xX4E
    S
    28 May 2013, 10:40 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Amouna, A popcorn intermission.

     

    I have a feeling we're gonna' settle in here for awhile based on the structure of the financing. Watch for the news not the stock price.

     

    OT:
    http://bit.ly/172fuch
    28 May 2013, 10:43 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1455) | Send Message
     
    Thanks iindelco!

     

    I agree with you that the only catalyst that can propel us higher is some news on the contracts in either trucking or automotive.
    28 May 2013, 11:04 AM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2476) | Send Message
     
    I'm curious to see if Granville gets any traction from his investor pres this Thursday.
    28 May 2013, 11:35 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    I would not look for immediate market impact from the presentation. Events like Markum cater to institutional types that will do a lot of diligence work after the conference on stories they find attractive. They're very worthwhile in the long-run but you rarely see an immediate response unless there's news at the same time.
    28 May 2013, 12:55 PM Reply Like
  • wtblanchard
    , contributor
    Comments (2382) | Send Message
     
    Good news for CPST. Good to see that the kind of decisions we're waiting on are getting made in NYC, though I expect the economics here are much easier to justify.

     

    Capstone Receives Major Order for Global Real Estate Development and Investment Firm

     

    http://bit.ly/10xGBIm;highlight=

     

    "today announced it received a major order for one of the most prominent privately held real estate and investment firms in the United States. Capstone distributor RSP Systems, headquartered in Bronx, NY, secured the significant order.

     

    The order for multiple buildings is from New York based Related Companies, a highly regarded entrepreneurial innovator and industry leader in environmentally conscious real estate development.

     

    The company's initial order includes multiple Capstone C65 and C200 Dual Mode microturbines that are expected to be installed over the next two years in several of its new best-in-class office buildings, apartments, and mixed-use properties. Some of the sites will feature combined heat and power (CHP) applications; others will operate in combined cooling, heating, and power (CCHP) applications."
    28 May 2013, 11:16 AM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor
    Comments (1212) | Send Message
     
    wtb, glad to hear it!

     

    Didn't one of the last conference calls include mention of targeting energy storage opportunities in NYC?
    28 May 2013, 01:45 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    Throough 12:56, it looks like we have some folks that like this price. Buy:sell 1.91:1 (65.7% "buys") with some decent volume, ~376.2K and VWAP of $0.2595, which could be better. Last note is that we have some larger blocks coming in on the buy - most "larger" ones are buys, not sells.

     

    Maybe some folks are seeing the upcoming presentation as a change in AXPW behavior, with the advice of their investment bank?

     

    Let's see if we get the typical late-day weakness, some of which has already appeared, or if we can hold price levels well.

     

    Our ususal suspects are in, along with the recent more active folks, mostly on the sell side, ARCA, CSTI. On the buy side, LAMP is in and has been weakly contesting ATDF's claim on the top spot.

     

    HardToLove
    28 May 2013, 01:17 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Saw a few times asks presented at 0.26 USD in reasonable size blocks and they were taken out in pretty short order. Seems to be a little rotation going on.
    28 May 2013, 04:56 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: Yes, I also noticed that they didn't last long. Buy:sell 2.23:1 (69.1% "buys") I think indicates the trading bias at this price level. VWAP $0.2593 - I would've liked to see higher, but we've got to run through the folks that need to let go for whatever reason before we can move up I guess.

     

    HardToLove
    28 May 2013, 05:24 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    FYI: ATDF has a ~104K bid at $0.255 floating around, currently masked by better bids from ATDF folks. This appeared at 13:33.

     

    HardToLove
    28 May 2013, 02:25 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Engineers address hybrids’ environmental impact

     

    http://bit.ly/18x1u88
    28 May 2013, 02:52 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Real world and 'official' mpg gap growing

     

    http://bit.ly/1165R4O
    28 May 2013, 03:14 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2164) | Send Message
     
    ii, why am I not surprised....
    28 May 2013, 03:23 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Rick, I had read and I believe posted an article about the US and Europe looking to homologize regulations. It will be interesting how this shakes out. Don't look for this to happen any time soon though! 8*P

     

    BTW, I've been worried about the Europeans muddying the waters where we're hoping to get a nice long drink! Especially in terms of VRLA battery life for SS. I'm pretty shocked the Europeans haven't raised heck.
    28 May 2013, 03:46 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Here's an old ref. documant from the ICCT on the different types of SS systems.

     

    In-market Application of Start-Stop
    Systems in European Market
    Final Report / December 2011

     

    http://bit.ly/11vOkYB
    28 May 2013, 04:22 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2164) | Send Message
     
    ii, remember there is a very strong interest in all the car manufacturers to encourage "flexibility" on the regulations, and very little consumer effort or capability to enforce honest regulations.
    28 May 2013, 05:19 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Rick, True. And the politicians are overseeing this for the good of the people! ;)

     

    In my mind you want to have good/real data for the consumer. Let the politicians and industry screw around with each other behind the curtain. Then we can ignore them.
    28 May 2013, 05:33 PM Reply Like
  • siliconhillbilly
    , contributor
    Comments (2099) | Send Message
     
    IIndelco: The only battery that actually works for SS (PbC) isn't made by a EU country. Plus, the EU seems to be running on hopes and dreams these days. Why should MPG testing accuracy be any different?
    30 May 2013, 01:48 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (29446) | Send Message
     
    The US is no better. It requires automakers to publish numbers that end up gettting them sued.
    30 May 2013, 06:26 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    SiHB, A very important statement "...isn't made by a EU country."

     

    One needs to understand what motivates people and societies in order to better understand why things are as they are. How compensation is dispensed is a big motivator.
    30 May 2013, 07:54 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2483) | Send Message
     
    Looks like this was an interesting presentation at the recent SAE congress:

     

    http://bit.ly/17nOJQl
    28 May 2013, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2483) | Send Message
     
    Apparent commentary on the presentation ...

     

    http://bit.ly/YtuBms
    28 May 2013, 03:48 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    AH trade 19700 16:02:01 $0.2546

     

    The size of this one makes me think that maybe MrI was correct - somebody long from sometime in the past unloading.

     

    Alternately, I'm also wondering if some of the new financiers might be involved, maybe on the buy side? VWAP $0.2593 suggests a larger buy order could be in the MMs hands, accumulated below $0.2546 and then makes the sale at EOD at the higher price.

     

    We'll never know if this is the case. But thinking that they knew enough to risk money with a $0.264 price and a future price, possibly adjusted downward, and $0.302 prices ... maybe they are bullish and adding a bit to their position now in the secondary market for future selling at substantially higher prices.

     

    Activity was unusual today, regarding trade sizes, and if it continues this way we might have an indication that option 2 is a possibility.

     

    I'll add some detail in the EOD post for my instablog.

     

    HardToLove
    28 May 2013, 04:18 PM Reply Like
  • Milhouse
    , contributor
    Comments (330) | Send Message
     
    OT: I came across this article, seems to suggest that a lot of the thermal management problems in EV's are with the inverters.

     

    http://bit.ly/12gkDfQ

     

    "All EVs or hybrid electric vehicles (HEV) use solid-state inverters to convert the direct current from the batteries or generators to three-phase alternating currents that drives the propulsion motors. The critical power-handling semiconductor components in the inverter are insulated gate bipolar transistors (IGBTs), diodes, and a dc bus capacitor that suppresses voltage ripple and provides temporary energy storage.

     

    When the vehicle accelerates, the inverter can get frying-pan hot. It typically must dissipate around 250 W of heat per power device at a heat flux reaching 300 W/cm2 while keeping the chips below 125°C."
    28 May 2013, 04:56 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (17254) | Send Message
     
    Great find Milhouse! Off to read it!

     

    HardToLove
    28 May 2013, 05:42 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (8765) | Send Message
     
    Gives some idea of pricing.

     

    Lessons Learned From SolarCity’s First Home Energy Storage Installs

     

    http://bit.ly/10FIzCV
    28 May 2013, 06:29 PM Reply Like
  • D Lane
    , contributor