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  • rhyse12
    , contributor
    Comments (187) | Send Message
     
    Really?
    7 Aug 2013, 01:24 PM Reply Like
  • User462699
    , contributor
    Comments (112) | Send Message
     
    Me 2?
    7 Aug 2013, 01:24 PM Reply Like
  • Fancy Pants
    , contributor
    Comments (36) | Send Message
     
    wooo hoooo
    7 Aug 2013, 01:25 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    Podium places all!

     

    HardToLove
    7 Aug 2013, 01:56 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2801) | Send Message
     
    What happened to the couple of pumpers we acquired during the recent bounce?
    7 Aug 2013, 01:57 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    mrI: I don't think "pumpers" should be applied to anyone we've seen here. If they truly believe, they aren't pumpers no matter how positive or contrary to another's view. "Pumpers" has a negative connotation.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    7 Aug 2013, 01:59 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (880) | Send Message
     
    after "pump" comes "dump" so maybe they are Dumpers now?
    7 Aug 2013, 02:15 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2801) | Send Message
     
    I don't know. So far, the only noticeable thing is their absence here.
    7 Aug 2013, 02:27 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    MrI: They probably left with all the "sheeple" and other deragotory terms that folks inside the industry use to refer to us unwashed masses.

     

    OTOH, it could be that they take a little time to for "real life" occasionally.

     

    HardToLove
    7 Aug 2013, 02:39 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2801) | Send Message
     
    The penny stk mkt is still the wild west of the investing world. While AXPW has less obvious/frequent shenanigans, I think it is unwise to consider it immune. A hearty skepticism is much more valuable here, IMO.
    7 Aug 2013, 02:47 PM Reply Like
  • 12100606
    , contributor
    Comments (86) | Send Message
     
    It's so nice to be missed! Rah! Rah! Rah! Goooooooo Axion! Hope that cheered you up, Mr. I., though I really think most of you on the board are actually happier when you're miserable.

     

    12100606 (name changed to disguise gender)
    7 Aug 2013, 03:18 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    YoYo: It's a shame you changed your name. We have an excess of testosterone here and need some moderating influences! :-))

     

    HardToLove
    7 Aug 2013, 03:30 PM Reply Like
  • 12100606
    , contributor
    Comments (86) | Send Message
     
    I tried. :-(
    7 Aug 2013, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • 12100606
    , contributor
    Comments (86) | Send Message
     
    You know who cheers ME up? Valleywood.
    7 Aug 2013, 03:41 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    I think all of us enjoy VW. As much for his story telling skills as his positive outlook. We don't get enough positives here, although it's generally for good reason. :-((

     

    HardToLove
    7 Aug 2013, 03:46 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2801) | Send Message
     
    I find it very helpful to my understanding of the pulse of this blog that VW's most important msg has been totally missed by probably almost everyone here.
    7 Aug 2013, 04:39 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (1047) | Send Message
     
    Hmmm, at the risk of appearing to be a pumper... :-)

     

    One of my pastimes is to read fairly obscure and unconventional perspectives on spirituality. I recently came across a short snippet that seemed applicable to some of Axion’s vociferous critics, those who spend an inordinate amount of time and energy mindlessly trashing Axion and its prospects. I’m referring to those on the Yadoodle board, and the occasional troll that shows up here. Here’s the snippet:

     

    “A sad note about human nature is that the average person will try to discourage a dream that tries to reach beyond the ordinary. I call this attitude the great social leveler. It is afraid of excellence.”

     

    This reminded me of one of the reasons I began to follow and invest in Axion to begin with. They are a pioneering company developing a revolutionary product that has the potential to transform a number of major sectors of our economy, especially the transportation industry. — I’ve been critical of TG at times, but I have to say I admire him for doggedly pursuing his dream and aspirations for so long, despite many obstacles that have come along that would quash them [many which we have very little to no knowledge of]. — Kudos to him for his persistence!
    7 Aug 2013, 02:12 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    WiO: "... I admire him for doggedly pursuing his dreams ..."

     

    I have to say that I also admire the slog because I'm a big believer in "sweat equity".

     

    But that still leaves room for improvement, IMO, in the areas that we've all addressed, to a greater or lesser degree.

     

    But that doesn't lessen my appreciation of dogged determination to achieve the goals and do what's needed to get there.

     

    BTW, the "leveling" you touched upon seems to have permeated our society to the extent that for a long time now the "leveling" task has been one of the primary functions of government, rather than just assuring equality of opportunity and providing essential services beyond the scope of state and local governments.

     

    HardToLove
    7 Aug 2013, 02:25 PM Reply Like
  • nakedjaybird
    , contributor
    Comments (2803) | Send Message
     
    HT et.al. - yes, the great leveler is the one that eliminates risk sometimes foolishly while damaging the private sector, in lessening the need for concern about skin in the game, and of course supporting or making possible all kinds of non-risky parasites with little to no skin in the game ruining the playing field for the real entrapreuers and risk-takers with the best ideas by getting in the way of the appropriate and free hand of Adam Smith in the private sector. So be the giant. Where's the hatchet for Jack?
    7 Aug 2013, 02:42 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (880) | Send Message
     
    When the goal of politicians is perpetuation and not service, you have to expect the twisted results we get.
    The majority are not the "over achievers" by definition. So the most votes can be gotten by catering to those that are not "successful" on their own.
    7 Aug 2013, 06:46 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    (AXPW): Q2 results pre-market 8/15. CC 11:00 A.M. EDT.

     

    Awaiting the PR Newswire link & will post.

     

    Got it.

     

    http://prn.to/18aW7eq

     

    HardToLove
    7 Aug 2013, 03:25 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2801) | Send Message
     
    OT

     

    I thought TSLA results weren't supposed to be out til 5:30. The stk is trading up big, to $153 as I write.
    7 Aug 2013, 04:22 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2801) | Send Message
     
    "Tesla reported Q2 profit of $0.20 per share, on revenue of $405 million.
    This beat expectations for a loss of $0.19 per share, on revenue of $387.9 million.
    Overall revenue however remained flat because of the decline in zero-emission vehicle (ZEV) credits.
    Q2 production rate improved 25% to 500 cars a week. 5,150 cars were delivered in the quarter, beating the company's expectations for 4,500 deliveries.
    The company had $747 million cash at the end of the second quarter.
    The press release offered some color on how Tesla managed to lower costs.
    "Significant cost improvements were achieved as a result of execution of our roadmap including redesigning many elements of Model S for greater ease of manufacturing, economies of scale and supply chain improvements. Importantly, we were able to make nuanced improvements to the car at the same time, as reducing cost does not count if it makes a product worse. Further execution on our cost reduction roadmap is expected to continue to improve non-GAAP automotive gross margin to our target level of 25% (excluding ZEV credits) in Q4 this year. We are cautiously optimistic that a number above that level may be achievable in future quarters."
    Tesla is on track for 25% gross margin ex-ZEV credits in Q4, according to the release. What's more, the company's lease-buy program also turned out to be popular with 30% of vehicles delivered in Q2 taking advantage of it."

     

    http://yhoo.it/18b4WF2

     

    Congrats to the longs, yet again. I'm jealous.
    7 Aug 2013, 04:30 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    Agree, Anyone that's long congratulations.

     

    Don't stay too long.

     

    "Tesla Motors Inc. TSLA +12.42% reported late Wednesday a second-quarter loss of $30.5 million, or 26 cents a share, compared with a year-ago loss of $105.6 million, or $1.00 a share. Adjusted to exclude one-time items, Tesla's second-quarter profit rose to 20 cents a share."

     

    http://bit.ly/1bcUmix
    7 Aug 2013, 04:45 PM Reply Like
  • JRP3
    , contributor
    Comments (8176) | Send Message
     
    "Don't stay too long."

     

    I've been hearing that for a "long" time now ;)
    7 Aug 2013, 09:22 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    JRP3, Understood. Good luck to you.
    7 Aug 2013, 10:48 PM Reply Like
  • Mr Investor
    , contributor
    Comments (2801) | Send Message
     
    ...
    7 Aug 2013, 04:23 PM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (723) | Send Message
     
    WIO, HTL, NJB, & the Engaging really big number , been reading posts for awhile whilst getting ready for the grandchildren to descend this weekend. Forgive me if I hijack your thread for a moment.

     

    The equities market is probably the purest freedom play left in the USA. He doesn't care about your age, your race, your educational level, heck, he doesn't care if you worship heads of cabbage. Mr. Market cares only whether you are ultimately (as defined by your lifetime) right or wrong. Wrong you have body parts caught in a wringer. Right and you're a hero in the mind of your wallet. Your spouse might get a gleam in the eye also. (Please notice gender neutrality).

     

    The odds are very very slim for any one shot, but every once in awhile . . . . So along comes Axion. Now, I don't know batteries from apple butter. For all I know I'm going over the cliff with the rest of the lemmings. But I don't believe that for one second.

     

    The most cranky bastiches I know consider our batteries the best bet for their device for which they have filed a patent application. Good night, nurse, they have actually called us their partner in their endeavor. Will they settle on us? I haven't a clue. Knowing who they are however and how difficult they can be, is all I need to buy a piece of our magic battery. This may be the last chance I have to crush the ball over the fence and I really like my odds.

     

    Marketing? Seems many angry folks have axes to grind, but our guy has chosen to go hunting with a rifle. Companies with highly confining assets are required to do so. Only the wealthy hunt with shotguns. I have bet on our product and on our management team. I have issues with the latter, but it's a little difficult the be very hostile with someone when I know almost no facts at all.

     

    One new micro company that renews trucks. One class I railroad. One internationally known luxury automobile manufacturer. They have all expressed interest publicly and are helping us on our way. Evidently they don't consider our management team to be quite as stupid as we seem to.

     

    If you're a very very busy and crucial decision maker you may be furious that this long post has tied up so much of your obviously precious time. Sorry. Perhaps you could learn to read faster. As a hint you could stop moving your lips. I hear that helps.

     

    Meanwhile I'm on this boat and for the record I believe it has already left the dock. At the moment I have to worry about surviving the visit with my grandchildren. Water park, county fair, playing the cymbals & drums with the pots & pans. I must now to my nap.
    7 Aug 2013, 05:26 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    VW: Dom't forget to stock up on the Ben-gay! :-))

     

    HardToLove
    7 Aug 2013, 05:59 PM Reply Like
  • bazooooka
    , contributor
    Comments (2893) | Send Message
     
    VW,

     

    I enjoy your wit. I too hope your former employer/partners come through and allow Axion to exit this darkness. I fear the next 12 months is a make or break time though and I'm not sure NS will move on this in a time frame that works for this current class of investor. I have little doubt that the PbC will find its niche but will it still be called Axion and will there be in equity left for us little guys to claim a few RBIs for ourselves?
    7 Aug 2013, 11:37 PM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (723) | Send Message
     
    bazooka,

     

    I share your concern. The next eighteen months seem make-or-break to me for Axion. I am inordinately invested in Axion and like most every other stockholder on this page I am wearing my rally cap. If I prove to be wrong in my purchase, I will lose much blood.

     

    I have no idea what NS will do. DRich does not share my enthusiasm one tiny bit, and with good reason. But the fact that NS has performed such exhaustive testing on our battery and found it satisfactory is huge. Every class I RR knows of our results. I don't speculate on that, rather I know it as a stone cold fact. That to me is a monstrous victory and word is spreading. Soon enuff? Who knows.

     

    If I could choose only one of our three prospects going forward, I would select ePower. And they are already writing us checks.

     

    I anticipate that by noon of the 15th I (we) will be furious over non-information in the CC. My dentist will be delighted to know that I will be grinding my teeth. My speculation remains in late September however and I am looking forward to the Annual Meeting.

     

    I take a very dim view of investing in companies that make me unhappy or in which I have little faith. It's just not worth it, and seems rather silly. There are those who believe things look darkest just before the dawn and there are those who believe things look darkest just before they get completely pitch black.

     

    I choose dawn. Others' results may vary.
    8 Aug 2013, 08:35 AM Reply Like
  • growsmart
    , contributor
    Comments (172) | Send Message
     
    "
    7 Aug 2013, 05:49 PM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5083) | Send Message
     
    “A sad note about human nature is that the average person will try to discourage a dream that tries to reach beyond the ordinary. I call this attitude the great social leveler. It is afraid of excellence.”

     

    WiO...this made me think, where is JP and his article he had written already and was waiting to hit the send button on TSLA after earnings ?
    7 Aug 2013, 06:01 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >LT ... Impatient, just a little bit?
    7 Aug 2013, 06:15 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    DRich: Well, when somebody wants to stir the pot, they are seldom patient.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    7 Aug 2013, 06:26 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    Perhaps a useful link for the immediate future.

     

    OMMMMMMMM...

     

    http://bit.ly/1cdkJcm

     

    Caution: Do not keep repeating this with a T in front if you are an Axionista. That's not the intent! :-)
    7 Aug 2013, 06:33 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (1047) | Send Message
     
    Hmmm, or for the immediate past? :-)
    7 Aug 2013, 07:54 PM Reply Like
  • Poul Brandt
    , contributor
    Comments (278) | Send Message
     
    Hmmm, isn't the intend to be present in the now? :-)
    8 Aug 2013, 04:01 AM Reply Like
  • raleigh731
    , contributor
    Comments (292) | Send Message
     
    Boy...that was long!
    8 Aug 2013, 08:33 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    Raleigh, Very funny! ;-))
    8 Aug 2013, 08:45 AM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (723) | Send Message
     
    Amouna I have wondered the same thing. Since we don't actually know anything however I'm not willing to assume that's the correct course of action. And in any event, this is a very delicate time and changes at this point seem sub-optimum.
    8 Aug 2013, 09:11 AM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (723) | Send Message
     
    :>)
    8 Aug 2013, 09:12 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4205) | Send Message
     
    "this is a very delicate time and changes at this point seem sub-optimum. "

     

    It is all I can do to continue waiting for change, change from selling large numbers of shares to selling large numbers of C electrodes and/or PbC batteries.
    8 Aug 2013, 02:29 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13542) | Send Message
     
    LOL, I think we are looking at change from selling large numbers of shares to selling larger numbers of shares. I think its time to stop focusing on how bouncy TG is looking, and take a look at how little bounce is in the Axionista herd of late. Someone, after all, has to buy up all those new shares pouring into the market every month.
    8 Aug 2013, 02:35 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    08/07/2013: EOD stuff partially copied from instablog (up already).
    # Trds: 120, MinTrSz: 100, MaxTrSz: 35700, Vol 689668, AvTrSz: 5747
    Min. Pr: 0.1400, Max Pr: 0.1510, VW Avg. Tr. Pr: 0.1435
    # Buys, Shares: 38 229373, VW Avg Buy Pr: 0.1448
    # Sells, Shares: 82 460295, VW Avg Sell Pr: 0.1428
    # Unkn, Shares: 0 0, VW Avg Unk. Pr: 0.0000
    Buy:Sell 1:2.01 (33.3% “buys”), DlyShts 121358 (17.60%), Dly Sht % of 'sells' 26.37%

     

    Today's daily shorts continue the behavior seen in the recent past after a spike: big drop down and start to crawl back towards “normal”.

     

    ARCA was on the field today. Yesterday I said “This leaves me thinking that the $0.1318 VWAP of 7/15 will be re-visited, and crushed, quite quickly unless some big news inspiring bullish sentiment appears soon or the “financiers” change their mind. One thing is sure – they won't run out of shares quickly”. With the day's low and VWAP so close together so quickly,, I'm guessing the next penny will go by quickly, sans so catalytic news.

     

    What's the odds the Q2 release before market open 8/15 or the CC at 11:00 EDT will contain that catalyst?

     

    Yesterday I said “In spite of contrary thoughts, I'm still not seeing any strong evidence of price support from the “financiers”. If they were going to support price, today would've been a good time to start. But today, at least, I think the price action supported my thoughts that they want to hammer price to acquire shares more cheaply for some while longer yet”.

     

    Did anybody see signs of support I didn't see? I was pleasantly surprised that the buy:sell came in at a reasonable ratio. That was accompanied by an average trade size that is quite reasonable too.

     

    Week end & this week's daily estimated values (older dailys in prior EOD posts) for next share issue:
    06/14: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.2315, x 85%: $0.1968 Wk cls VWAP $0.2122
    06/21: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.2176, x 85%: $0.1850 Wk cls VWAP $0.1751
    06/28: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1956, x 85%: $0.1663 Wk cls VWAP $0.1474
    07/05: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1805, x 85%: $0.1534 Wk cls VWAP $0.1518
    07/12: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1657, x 85%: $0.1408 Wk cls VWAP $0.1403
    07/19: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1539, x 85%: $0.1309 Wk cls VWAP $0.1543
    07/26: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1524, x 85%: $0.1295 Wk cls VWAP $0.1555
    08/02: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1524, x 85%: $0.1295 Wk cls VWAP $0.1733
    08/05: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1524, x 85%: $0.1295
    08/06: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1520, x 85%: $0.1292
    08/07: 20 lowest intra-day VWAPs in 40 days avg, $0.1511, x 85%: $0.1285

     

    Vol, in K, for above weeks: 4,356, 1,934, 3910, 1,217, 2902, 5041, 2731.
    Vol, in K, for above days: 425.7, 1,691.8, 689.7.

     

    On my original inflection point calculations, readings for 5, 10, 25, 50, 100 and 200 day periods:
    1-day change: -27.8%, -51.1%, -6.3%, , -8.6%, -0.9%, -3.2%
    5-day change: -16.0%, -45.4%, -297.3%, , -39.1%, -33.4%, -67.5%
    5-day rate of change change: -6.1%, -4.5%, -38.6%, , -6.1%, -18.7%, -179.5%

     

    On my newer inflection point calculations, for those same periods:
    1-day change: -35.5%, -58.3%, -30.7%, , -28.6%, -19.8%, -28.8%
    5-day change: -29.0%, -71.0%, -115.2%, , -78.8%, -93.0%, -96.6%
    5-day rate of change change: -37.6%, -96.8%, -315.9%, , -1246.0%, -395.7%, -250.0%

     

    On my original experimental inflection point calculations, everything is going south, as easily seen on the charts – the numbers above are really superfluous when the graphical presentation is so clear.

     

    On the the newer version, same comment. The only additional thought is that the longer-term calculations, 50, 100 and 200-day periods, broke below the trend lines that I had hoped my act as a lower bound, thereby suggesting some appreciation on the way. That was before we had any inkling as to if the behavior would be the same or similar in the second round of shares. Now we know what to expect until some big news gives us a helping hand. My question then will be how many shares added and who has them and how anxious will they be to dump and take profits.

     

    ATM I'm thinking the nearer-term upside will be a lot less than we might have envisioned before the financing round.

     

    Details of “Dly Sht % of 'sells'” and inflection points omitted here.

     

    HardToLove
    7 Aug 2013, 06:59 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    HTL, What's interesting is that they have not been really aggressive in taking out larger offers on the bid. All while fighting like heck to be first in line at the ask. All kinds of pushing and shoving on the ask. So if they really want to push this down they are being patient and surgical to gather every partial cent. If this were not the case 0.14 would have been history in a heart beat today.
    7 Aug 2013, 07:31 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: I don't know about the "history today". A 4%+ drop in a single day is reasonable if you are trying to establish a trend rather than a big crash and immediate bounce.

     

    This crosses my mind as part of a lower the 85% price strategy. A one-day down and up doesn't provided as much gain as a 20-day out of 40 slow walk down.

     

    They need those 20 low prices in the queue of 40 days before the next share issue or true up.

     

    HardToLove
    7 Aug 2013, 07:51 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >H.T.Love ... You say; "What's the odds the Q2 release before market open 8/15 or the CC at 11:00 EDT will contain that catalyst?" Well, I'll venture a guess and put those odds at slim to none. The most exciting thing I'm figuring to be covered will be discovering that all that inventory they made earlier in the year has gone into shelf-life testing for expiration labeling. There will a lot of other subjects to side-stepped and definitively obsticated but nothing important.
    7 Aug 2013, 07:28 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    Well I've been watching DRich. They haven't ordered any additional bio-carbon so the shelves are still stocked to some level for sure. Well, unless they are picking up stealth shipments with the stealth NS 999 via a CIA engineer.
    7 Aug 2013, 07:36 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    DRich: "... slim and none" was along my lines too. My hopium hookah (didn't want to even say the word P*P*) is filled with a long-shot of something like "We'll be signing contracts with two battery manufacturers that supply BMW in the next couple weeks".

     

    But that really is a long-shot I think because that had only been in the works a few months when they mentioned it in that last CC, it's only been a few more months since and we have ow idea what supply-chain, QC, warranty cost allocation or assignment, and such other issues have to be worked out on top of the basic agreement.

     

    So I figure another 6 months to a year is our best real shot there.

     

    I'm hoping VW has it right and we get something from (NSC) in September, but ...

     

    HardToLove
    7 Aug 2013, 08:00 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    I went stream of consciousness here, but I would like to hear some meaningful discussion of some of the following topics.

     

    Automotive - How many programs what stage of progression? Who requires NDAs auto or Axion? Recently, Citroen allowed a development announcement for a program that is just beginning ...
    What happened to the Asian automaker? When Axion has been discussing numerous auto testing programs, why did the last investor presentation mention only one.

     

    Auto Component suppliers: testing programs? How many? what stage?

     

    Trucking - How many programs? What types - (1) epower, (2) S/S, (3) Auxillary. What stages? Are there batteries in trucks yet other than epower? Do you expect a similar testing timeline to auto from start to finish.

     

    Trains - You previously mentioned that b/c NS was dragging its feet Axion took the initiative to go to other railroads. How many? Are there other testing progams? What stages?

     

    PowerCube - In November of 2011, Axion announced the PowerCube in conjunction with PJM and Viridity. Since Axion has discussed presentations with utility groups and mentioned a 2500% increase in mature RFPs. Are there any issues that have prevented these issues from going forward. Is Viridity actively participating in the RFPs? If not, why not?

     

    Financing: Trying to make sense of the deal. For the past year mgt discussed seeking strategic financing. It didn't happen and now its been postulated by some that a strategic investor would have been a slaver. Which is it? Did you not expect the PIPE to turn out this way or did you expect that one of trophy contracts you were seeking would fall into place in short order?

     

    Investor presentation: discusses growing customer base. I am only aware of NS and Epower that has issued purchase orders. Pls elaborate.

     

    Only mentions work with one automaker since 2009; however various statements by Axion in 10Ks, grant applications and CCs indicate that Axion used to have many more testing program. See question 1, are these programs still ongoing?

     

    In 2012, Axion began a major initiative to market Cube products. There have been no sales. What are the issues that Axion is running into? (I understand there is generally a two year lag from announcement to installation)

     

    Please comment on the continuous carbon sheeting and what it means for the company with respect to cutting out man hours and what whether the process needs to get better before an auto OEM will accept the process.

     

    There was great fanfare for the Hub last year. What does the breakup with Rosewater mean for the Hub product.

     

    Do you see a realistic path to breakeven revenues or at least a real and meaningful signal to the market of breakeven revenues before the end of the PIPE.

     

    It has been postulated that the NDA requirement is more an Axion requirement than the end user NDA. Is this accurate and if so why?

     

    Edit: Most of the 5000 investor base are on your team. Figure out a way to tell the story.
    7 Aug 2013, 09:00 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >Stefan Moroney ... I'd love to hear discussion of your list of topics & questions. Hope springs eternal. None of the topics or questions will be addressed directly or answered ... save one. I can answer that one even without any knowledge or information ... so I will.

     

    You ask; "What happened to the Asian automaker?"
    Answer; Work continues

     

    I hate to seem harsh but I've been listening to these CC things long enough to know that all your queries have merit but will not be considered material for shareholders to the know details. If I'm wrong (I hope, I hope, I hope) I'll be in shock. Mr. Granville just doesn't discuss the on-going current (glimpses only and only occasionally) and doesn't do forward-looking. It is the world we invested in.
    7 Aug 2013, 09:29 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    DRich - I have been around long enough to know that as well. Hence, the stock price is warranted.

     

    Doesn't mean I will not attempt to address them.
    7 Aug 2013, 09:39 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    OT:

     

    Another company that I have written about is Cytomedix. Tonight they announced a commercialization and licensing partner.

     

    http://bit.ly/15ObPhQ
    7 Aug 2013, 09:42 PM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (1047) | Send Message
     
    >Stefan --- "Doesn't mean I will not attempt to address them."

     

    I will appreciate any efforts you make on behalf of all of us to get answers and information we deserve to have. --- You'll have my support, and I'm sure every other Axionista's as well.
    7 Aug 2013, 10:15 PM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1638) | Send Message
     
    Well thought out points Stefan. I agree with all of them. Let's see what the response will be. If TG snubs these questions, or doesn't give any convincing answers, then it is time we the retail shareholder start getting alarmed
    8 Aug 2013, 06:20 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1638) | Send Message
     
    DRich,

     

    Had I known now secretive and bullet dodging TG was from the get go, I doubt very much I would be invested in AXPW now...
    8 Aug 2013, 06:21 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    Amouna: I've begun wondering if the mindset and skills of a union contract negotiator that served so well in certain situations have become a liability now. Running a business, making yourself viable in an open-market situation, garnering shareholder support, garnering customers via marketing and moving product, ISTM, needs to have that old mindset replaced with a different one.

     

    From what we can see, I would assume that has not happened.

     

    I'm seriously considering voting no on every item to send a message. If, as some have stated they believe, TG is stacking the BOD, the vote on Trego might be the most important one.

     

    But then what?

     

    HardToLove
    8 Aug 2013, 06:51 AM Reply Like
  • LT
    , contributor
    Comments (5083) | Send Message
     
    HTL & Stephen, it would be wise to send a message to mgt. with votes and ask the tough questions that Stephen just posted & like I have proposed for quite some time.
    If these are not addressed this ship is sinking fast & there will be no life raft for axionistas.
    8 Aug 2013, 08:02 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1638) | Send Message
     
    HTL,

     

    I am too starting to wonder whether TG's skills to lead the company into a new growth phase are still very valuable. After all, if we can rationalize that the skill set of Jay which centers around efficient manufacturing of the Carbon sheeting process is no longer that useful for Axion (which would explain why he left), then why should we think any different when it comes to TG?

     

    Please debate freely, I am open to any discussion on this.

     

    A
    8 Aug 2013, 09:01 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >Amouna ... I think you (and lot of people on this forum) are getting trolled ... a lot. I understand the worry of the stock price falling like a rock and am P.O'ed that Mr. Granville has flatly stated that he doesn't care about it. I'm not thrilled about how little I know about efforts to expand into applications beyond the Big 3 customer base.

     

    You say Mr. Granville is so secretive. That is true, but it is also typical. The number of companies that are as open as this forum seems to be demanding can be counted on a single hand (excluding scams).
    8 Aug 2013, 10:22 AM Reply Like
  • Amouna
    , contributor
    Comments (1638) | Send Message
     
    DRich,

     

    I assure you most opinions that I have expressed so far on this forum are my own. I gather the facts, look at the management's behavior and try to make sense of it. So far, it seems to me that we were expecting them to deliver PbC sales much faster, so I can help but feel disappointed at the current pace of progress!
    8 Aug 2013, 10:48 AM Reply Like
  • rastros
    , contributor
    Comments (38) | Send Message
     
    Stefan and others,

     

    What about the possibility of taking your excellent set of questions and forwarding them to the PR company working with Axion-----with a specific request from us that these be forwarded to TG, prior to the conference call and/or the annual meeting. We would ask, in addition, that if there is not sufficient time to answer them at the CC, that an email be prepared for shareholders, that deals with these questions. At least, then, we are on record as requesting answers, and not just frustrated that the CC didn't last long enough to ask the proper questions. If TG is willing to provide answers to TK for an article in Forbes, he should be willing to do this. We really shouldn't be learning more from a journalist than we can learn ourselves.
    8 Aug 2013, 11:02 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >Amouna ... I will not deny you your disappointment. I share that, too.

     

    To me, the most important, critical & immediate need (and I've thought this for years) is the manufacturing partnership, even more than sales. It could be what is holding up the entire show. I was more than a little naive about the sheeting line being the holdup. My other "bone of contention" is the perceived lack of effort in garnering more applications and, yeah, I know the excuses, reasons ... whatever. When it comes to the management, I am OK with your idea of "secretive" but I'm not OK with bonehead statements (300%, cashflow positive in 2013 and others) without any explanation or visibility.
    8 Aug 2013, 11:05 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2429) | Send Message
     
    DRrich & Amouna "I think you (and lot of people on this forum) are getting trolled "

     

    Certainly there used to be a lot of trolls on the APC, but I think most of them have gotten bored (or actively and repeatedly deleted by APH). There are a number of negative posters, but I wouldn't call them trolls.

     

    ["Most" does not mean this is a zero-troll zone, merely troll-minimized]
    8 Aug 2013, 11:44 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    Rastros - I'm preparing a more formal email for TG. It may not be evident from my posts, but I want to see him smiling after getting something sustainable to go Axion's way.
    8 Aug 2013, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >Stefan Moroney ... FYI, put it in an actual letter. Email get filtered through Allen Caron in NYC. Like I've said before, if they at get word back to New Castle as well as they get word about Axion out ... well, you might be wasting your time.
    8 Aug 2013, 02:08 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4205) | Send Message
     
    Stef .... I concur completely in DR's recommendation to send your comments/thought directly to TG in hard copy via snail or registered mail. And, I am taking my own advice.
    8 Aug 2013, 02:42 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    OT -

     

    Reading over the Cytomedix CC transcript from today and I came upon this statement the CEO gave about a different secretive partnership with a big pharma company that almost occurred approximately a year ago. For the last year, the CEO has said discussions with various potential partners are ongoing, but it seemed nothing was happening. I found it interesting in light of how things are unfolding here.

     

    "One question that I get regularly is “What’s the status of discussions around an AutoloGel partnership?” Today I can say that the partners or potential partners we’ve been talking to still have not walked away from the table, but obviously the discussions have been moving at a slow pace over the last couple of months. This is mostly due to questions and clarity around CMS and the CED decision.

     

    What we’re finding is technically based on the fact that our government tends to move slowly and has at times in the past made decisions that appeared unreasonable there is lack of comfort or lack of confidence in the AutoloGel product and the reimbursement going forward. So the follow-up question that I get to that is why am I confident? Why do I believe that CMS is going to be successful? Why do I believe that our coverage is going to be successful? So I’ll answer both of these questions together.

     

    First of all, with respect to the partnerships what it’s going to take to move those along is evidence that we can succeed and that we will achieve what we’re claiming we’ll achieve with AutoloGel in this marketplace given our reimbursement. My confidence in that comes from a couple of areas. First of all I acknowledge that the government often makes decisions or takes actions that appear unreasonable such as providing a national coverage decision and then authorizing a payment that is limited or not sufficient to support the coverage decision.

     

    On the other hand, the people within the government, particularly within CMS that we’ve been dealing with are very reasonable and rational. The coverage group that gave us the national coverage decision has been helping us by walking us through the contacts we need to make in order to facilitate the changes that’s required to get an approved payment in the hospital outpatient setting. The clinical data that supports the technology that’s keeping our potential partners at the table by the way is very robust, and CMS wants this national coverage decision to be successful.

     

    So while the government doesn’t move quickly and we do have to go through the public process that’s been initiated we remain in contact with them. The contacts that we have within CMS are reasonable and rational. They’re helping us make sure that we get to everybody we need to get to to get the proper decision and that gives me the confidence that the process is going to go well for us."

     

    http://seekingalpha.co...
    9 Aug 2013, 01:11 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    Interestingly, Cytomedix had its CFO tender his resignation in April. It was stated that it was not due to any disagreement with the company.
    9 Aug 2013, 01:39 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    Last OT on Cytomedix:

     

    Jason Napodano is a very good Seeking Alpha writer that just posted an article on the CC.

     

    http://bit.ly/15WH8ao
    9 Aug 2013, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >H.T.Love ... How depressing to think about "another 6 months to a year" but it seems all too likely. Question then would be whether Mr. Conrad's estimate might look like upside.

     

    And then there is that BP4 ... the locomotive that can't seem to roll, entering its 5th month in the shop.

     

    Go ... ePower!
    7 Aug 2013, 08:31 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    DRich: The BP4 taking so much time really is not as concerning to me because I know how slow big organizations can be, having worked inside one for so many years.

     

    Adding in the things JP has touched upon - past public failure - makes it even less concerning to me. The public acknowledgment of "... partner ... Axion Power ..." in the sustainability report seems to me to suggest they are quite near (in their time-scale) to getting it out of the shop.

     

    Since I have no RR background, I don't know if there's implications to "5th month", but from what we've discussed here - the racking, air flow, wiring, bench testing, resistor banks, tuning dynamic vs. regen braking stuff, ..., contention for shop resources (manpower, materials, space, other jobs, ...) - all suggest this is not an unreasonable time?

     

    As I said, I have no background to judge, but maybe you've seen other (albeit less radical) projects that might offer a clue as to whether the 5 months so far is really out of line?

     

    HardToLove
    8 Aug 2013, 07:03 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13542) | Send Message
     
    The more I watch the 999 (its similar to watching Axion, y'know? but with a somewhat more attractive paint job still drying)... The more I wonder if part of the issue on the NS side are resources. As I dig into the regulatory (and more interestingly, the legislative) side of the coin, I find that NS is facing some firm deadlines that they are probably going to miss with the PbC-based initiative. They simply have not (perhaps institutionally COULD not) meet the pace needed to get this pony ready to meet the coming regulatory challenges.

     

    Assuming NS knows where they stand, I believe they may have hit upon a new plan involving shifting resources from R&D to getting ready to rebuild more locomotives, which will enable them to continue operating past those new deadlines. Rebuilt locomotives don't have to meet the same high regulatory standards, so a logical approach (lacking a ready-to-roll PbC solution) would entail getting ready to greatly increase the overhaul capacity.

     

    In the long run this might open up even more opportunity for Axion, with the pace of overhauls heightened due to the environmental glass ceiling for new equipment... But in the short run, we could see the 999 shunted aside and put on a slow track.

     

    IF NS is going to be doing more overhauls in the near future, this might be indicated by new hires in that area and some apparent shifts in capital budgets, probably as early as the next quarterly reports.

     

    All just raw speculation, of course.
    8 Aug 2013, 10:49 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2302) | Send Message
     
    But useful speculation if it gives something to discuss beyond the gripes about TG.
    8 Aug 2013, 10:53 AM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (787) | Send Message
     
    I wonder what the stories would be like if Axion had Mr. Musk for CEO and Tesla had Mr. TG as their CEO the past couple of years! Can you imagine, the disruptive PbC technology in the control of a successful promotor??

     

    Just saying!
    8 Aug 2013, 11:16 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13542) | Send Message
     
    LOL, I picture it now...

     

    Axion announces dramatic new leasing program for electric locomotives, with federal government backing...

     

    Axion announces purchasing mothballed locomotive factory from GE with the help of DOE financing, while NS and GE purchase equity positions in Axion...

     

    Ludicrous. Surreal. The pictures just won't stop rolling through my imagination.
    8 Aug 2013, 11:27 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2429) | Send Message
     
    tripleback - the real challenge with your vision is TG having made a fortune with an Internet startup. "iElevator.com - your path to the top!"
    8 Aug 2013, 11:47 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13542) | Send Message
     
    Yes, we go from an emperor who has no clothes - but wears them very well - to one in literal elevator shoes.
    8 Aug 2013, 01:13 PM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (723) | Send Message
     
    DRich,

     

    " Go... ePower!" Priceless.

     

    Looks like they may in fact be our fastest ticket. I'm still waiting for mystery man #4 to show up.

     

    :>)

     

    Six weeks can't be that bad. And then another . . . and another sigh.

     

    When's the blasted CC ?
    7 Aug 2013, 09:07 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    August 15th at 11:00 a.m.
    7 Aug 2013, 09:32 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >Valleywood ... On 12Aug13 the world awaits, with bated breath, the details of the 5th form of transportation with release of plans for "Hyperloop-alpha". I'm excited. I also wonder if I might see it in operation before I see NS999.
    7 Aug 2013, 09:35 PM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    >Valleywood and all to know

     

    John had it right! Note 11:00 am E.T., 8/15/13 2Q CC
    7 Aug 2013, 11:22 PM Reply Like
  • Poul Brandt
    , contributor
    Comments (278) | Send Message
     
    What is so exciting about that in itself?
    A network of vacuum tubes with some technical details.Lot's of that in the literature.

     

    No patents. Because the patents will have expired when the project comes into practical use.

     

    But what Musk can add is focus, momentum (and government money), so the system get's implemented in this century.
    8 Aug 2013, 04:22 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    DRich, I'm only supportive of the system if they utilize it in place of Brinks trucks on occasion and they put pet departments at entry/exit points. That way it'll bring back memories of my childhood. That, to me, will be worth every billion spent of someone else's money.

     

    Oh, one other request. If they throw in the passenger carrier as well, I'd prefer not to hear the loud thump at the arrival points. Not into the "G" wiz implications.
    8 Aug 2013, 08:14 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... Call it a morbid curiosity . I've got little to no interest in the Hyperloop-alpha because I don't see it working. Can the average human stand being accelerated to an average speed of 1200 mph?

     

    I remember back to my youth and Popular Science magazine having a whole issue devoted to travel between Tokyo & San Francisco in such a system as I believe the great E.M. proposes. I enjoy reading about impractical engineering ideas because .... who knows when or where progress will come from.

     

    I'm still enthusiastic about the "Spin-Dizzy".
    8 Aug 2013, 10:46 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    DRich, Not a problem going 1200 mph as you know. It's the acceleration and deceleration that counts given the person is isolated from the atmosphere. Will it work? Sure it will. Is it economically justifiable? I doubt it.

     

    Oh, I don't want to be near it if there is a breach to atmosphere in the system while in use.

     

    My favorite is the "space elevator" which at one point the Japanese claimed they were going to fund research for. If you're aware of the theory it's basically a mass in geosynchronous orbit with a carbon fiber anchor tied to the earth that can be used to lift payloads into space. Now that would be some "neat-o cool stuff"!
    8 Aug 2013, 11:22 AM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... If you've been following the saga of the Space Miners you would know that the space elevator idea is far from dead. I don't remember which one it was but one of them wants to go grab an asteroid and park it in geosync on a tether for further processing. They never mention the "space elevator" but I can't imagine what else the tether would be, unless it is nothing at all.

     

    There are all kinds of fun things to think about that really make no Real sense. Yet, think about the absurd has brought about a lot of progress so it deserves to be encouraged & continued.
    8 Aug 2013, 11:50 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2429) | Send Message
     
    iindelco & Drich - We all are already spinning at over 1000 mph on the Earth's surface, and all astronauts in orbit are doing at least 17,000 mph.

     

    Jumping off the Empire State Building, the first 100 stories at 150 mpg is easy; just the last one is problematic.
    8 Aug 2013, 11:54 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    I have to imagine a people mover scale version of the THUNK I used to hear at the bank could get uncomfortable.
    8 Aug 2013, 11:58 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    DRich, Yes I've read a little on that. Jeeze! Better be some darn valuable elements on that space body.

     

    Like the dream of recovering helium 3 from the moon.
    -
    Rick K, The old physics question. At what height does a person as defined by the following metrics achieve terminal velocity when jumping from a plane at 20,000 feet. No parachute involved.

     

    Disclaimer: The first time not the second. :(
    -
    John, I can hear the comment now. "Hey Jim, I thunk that didn't go so well."

     

    Is that passed tense?
    -
    Ahhh, Passing time until the earnings report.
    8 Aug 2013, 12:31 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: "terminal" velocity occurs at 0 ft. AGL.

     

    Well, there have been a couple miraculous exceptions documented that involved a couple bounces.

     

    HardToLove
    8 Aug 2013, 12:42 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Yes. And the occasional lucky person that hits deep snow.

     

    I recall an interesting chap that lived in a unit of an apartment complex I lived in while going to college. Avid sky diver but he mixed in, on occasion, the buds from that fiber material we were talking about to enhance his experience. Met a friend of his throwing his furniture in a dumpster one day. Seems he opened his chute in the wrong orientation. He was confirmed not to be a Bumble. :(

     

    http://bit.ly/1cNBvMV
    8 Aug 2013, 01:08 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco: Well, he went out pleasantly relaxed?

     

    HardToLove
    8 Aug 2013, 01:16 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (1041) | Send Message
     
    Or the fact that those tubes at the bank couldn't have two tubes in use at the same time. So one one set of 6 people in a tube in each section with a bunch of start/stops at interchanges. Makes the bends seem simple.
    8 Aug 2013, 01:24 PM Reply Like
  • Stilldazed
    , contributor
    Comments (2144) | Send Message
     
    II,
    As an Aurthur C. Clarke SciFi fan in my youth, I grew up with dreams of space elevators.
    8 Aug 2013, 01:59 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    Stilldazed. How can that not heighten one's imagination. The thought of having, what would appear to be, easier access to the heavens.

     

    Has to be somewhat comparable to witnessing the transition into the era of the aeroplane. A miracle brought to reality.

     

    Makes the thought of a better LAB seem trivial when used as contrast. Simple. A walk in the park. A given. No worries!
    8 Aug 2013, 02:28 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    DRich> If man was meant to fly we would have been born with wings! The Red Bull jumper reached 1,357.64 km/h (843.6 mph)—Mach 1.25. Baumgartner broke the sound barrier on his descent thus becoming the first human to do so without any form of engine power.: Almost no air resistance or drag at his jump point!
    9 Aug 2013, 03:46 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2770) | Send Message
     
    Bang
    Thus proving man was meant to fall. As he was born without the a fore mentioned wings. :-)
    9 Aug 2013, 03:37 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    Froggey: OTOH, maybe not meant to fall. Maybe meant to never rise above ...

     

    HardToLove
    9 Aug 2013, 03:40 PM Reply Like
  • rupers
    , contributor
    Comments (62) | Send Message
     
    Not if there's a sharp-pointed pole whose tip is located at 40 ft AGL. Then terminal velocity would be at about 20 ft AGL (I'm allowing a skewering allowance of 20 ft).
    9 Aug 2013, 04:23 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    Rupers,
    At the speed the body would be falling, I think sharp-pointed would be optional. A fully inflated basketball on the pole would probably do just as well.

     

    Might not look as gory though - likely mostly internal damage.

     

    HardToLove
    9 Aug 2013, 04:40 PM Reply Like
  • Nathan Kemalyan
    , contributor
    Comments (595) | Send Message
     
    I've sat at the computer quietly through about 6 of these conference calls. I don't think the company has changed it's stripes, so I'm not expecting any revelations. If they book a large order from someone, I'm sure they'll announce it when it happens. If they agree to supply anodes to a battery manufacturer, I suspect we'll hear about it. Until then, I'm not expecting to hear anything of substance, based on prior experience...sorry to pour "bah-humbug" on your Christmas, but why would you expect anything different?
    8 Aug 2013, 12:18 AM Reply Like
  • nogoodslacker
    , contributor
    Comments (1038) | Send Message
     
    I just want to hear if they still have a bounce in their step. And I mean that seriously.
    8 Aug 2013, 08:26 AM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13542) | Send Message
     
    Its the new shoes, not the new "news". TG has the new Adidas with the blade spring soles. Makes him look taller, too.
    8 Aug 2013, 10:54 AM Reply Like
  • Renzo
    , contributor
    Comments (352) | Send Message
     
    I apologize sincerely, but "bounce in my step" brought this to mind:
    http://bit.ly/14eOjUQ
    9 Aug 2013, 08:30 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    Nathan: "... "bah-humbug" on your Christmas, but why would you expect anything different?"

     

    Because we were raised to believe in "Santy Clause"?

     

    Hope springs, and all that, keeps us going.

     

    Unfortunately, the prancing of little hooves sound on my roof seems to be not eight tiny reindeer, but NSA gnomes.

     

    Oh well, at least someone is interested in us even if ...

     

    HardToLove
    8 Aug 2013, 06:10 AM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2302) | Send Message
     
    And all we want and crave is all that attention, right?

     

    Will TG be coming down the chimney this year?
    8 Aug 2013, 10:19 AM Reply Like
  • Fritz1969
    , contributor
    Comments (42) | Send Message
     
    Do the newest PbC batteries produced after production improvements need a new battery management system?
    Does ePower has to adapt their system for the newest PbC batteries?
    Does Norfolk Southern need to do any changes and retesting for using the newest PbCs?
    8 Aug 2013, 07:29 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    The new PbC's perform better in ePower's system, but don't require any changes to either the BMS or other vehicle control systems.

     

    While I can't speak for Norfolk Southern, ePower's experience has been that the new PbC's have better performance characteristics than the mechanical systems demand. The only impact of the gains is that they give rise to additional opportunities for future improvements to the mechanical systems.
    8 Aug 2013, 07:44 AM Reply Like
  • Fritz1969
    , contributor
    Comments (42) | Send Message
     
    It is encouraging that ePower did not have to change anything. It implies that any other customer/partner does not have to do any changes to. So my guess is that the suddenly improved performance does not postpone any decision of any customers. At the moment I almost see the performance improvements negative if any of mayor customers delays orders/contracts because they need more time to get more benefit of the newest PbCs.
    8 Aug 2013, 08:14 AM Reply Like
  • Fritz1969
    , contributor
    Comments (42) | Send Message
     
    John, ePower changes the 197 hp engine to 240 hp engine in their system. Do the new PbCs have a little bit impact on that decision?
    8 Aug 2013, 08:34 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    The John Deere engine is rated at 197 hp and 115 kW when attached to a stationary generator. By the time you account for parasitic loads like A/C, power steering and brake compressors, the most ePower can get out of the genset installed in a truck is 93 kW.

     

    Moving up to the Cummins which is rated net of parasitic loads will take the genset output up to rated capacity of 115 kW and allow for transitory over-rating of up to 128 kW.

     

    Over the last couple weeks I've been learning a lot about trucking. Class 8 is actually divided into two categories. Class 8A is for GVWs of 33,000 to 60,000 pounds where Class 8B is for GVWs of 60,000 to 80,000 pounds.

     

    The ePower drivetrain with the John Deere four banger is already good enough for the needs of the Class 8A fleet and all EU trucking. The six-cylinder upgrade is only required if you want to satisfy the needs of the Class 8B fleet.

     

    While the current ePower drivetrain is good enough for Class 8A and the EU, it's never been installed on a short-wheelbase "day-cab" tractor because all the Gen2 development work was done on a longer and heavier "sleeper cab" chassis.

     

    ePower is currently working on two third-generation prototypes. The first will be an upgrade of the sleeper cab drivetrain using the larger Cummins six-cylinder engine. The second will be a new install of the four-cylinder drivetrain on a day cab tractor. ePower hopes to have both third-generation prototypes in fuel economy testing by the end of September, although I won't be surprised if the day cab tractor takes longer.

     

    The big challenge for the day cab tractor will be finding enough space for all the necessary components on a shorter wheelbase vehicle. Jay Bowman thinks he has a handle on the solution but until the truck is done and on the road nothing is certain.
    8 Aug 2013, 10:17 AM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2770) | Send Message
     
    John
    Is the 4 banger the John Deere or is it something already road certified. (EPA and anything else I might not think of, certified)
    such as a smaller Cummins?
    8 Aug 2013, 09:08 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    The Deere four banger satisfies all applicable EPA rules because the existing rules don't apply to engines that have no mechanical linkage to the drive wheels. It's one of those loopholes that will probably be closed if the ePower system takes off like gangbusters in Class 8A, but for now EPA certification is simply not an issue. While Cummins and Mercedes both make small four bangers for the European market, they're not available in the US or certified for sale.
    8 Aug 2013, 09:26 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    Fritz1969, ePower has already integrated the latest generation of PbC batteries. So any changes have already been understood and accommodations have been made.

     

    As for NSC. As far as we know NSC is not working with the latest ePower level of PbC batteries. I'd guess they have been advised of improvements that are available based on the implementation of the automated sheeting line. My best guess is that the hardware and BMS would not need to be changed to utilize the latest batteries if they are so inclined. However if they wanted to optimize the NS 999 locomotive and its associated charger to take advantage of some of the changes in the revised PbC battery there might be required software and hardware changes necessary to accommodate the greater DCA .

     

    Remember that it is possible that the ePower level batteries might be intentionally different that the NS 999 batteries based on differing application requirements.
    8 Aug 2013, 07:56 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2429) | Send Message
     
    Iindelco & HTL – There are minimal to no changes necessary for the BMS system with v 2.0 over 1.0 Bio-Carbons. The 2.0 has less internal resistance, higher recharging rate, presumable higher round trip efficiency, and slightly more capacity (kwh).

     

    Battery charging is usually in three stages: bulk, absorption, and float.

     

    During bulk, the battery charging circuit is maintained at 13.5 v, and the battery accepts energy as fast as it can. This is the 100 amp number bandied about. Even if 1000 amps is available (eg, from braking), so long as the voltage is regulated to 13.5 v, there is no damage to the battery. Version 2.0 would simply accept a higher charge, perhaps 150 amps. This maximum charge rate is not a fixed number, and is dependent on temperature and SOC. The vast majority of ePower's operations will be in the bulk charging zone. No changes are needed.

     

    At the setpoint (typically 80% SOC), the charger changes to absorption. The current is regulated to 17 amps (on a 30HT) and is maintained for a fixed time or until the charging power drops to a very low number. The lower internal resistance may mean a higher absorption current can flow, which may mean a shorter absorption time. I doubt any changes are necessary, but tweaking the absorb current and time probably may improve performance somewhat.

     

    The analogy here is filling a soda bottle. One can fill a bottle to ¾ fairly fast, then one has to top off the bottle very slowly.

     

    Float is basically a trickle charge to keep it charged. Some chargers do a continuous slow charge, other may have two stages, off and trickle. No changes.

     

    Since the 2.0 batteries have slightly more capacity, and if the BMS system is using a resistance amp meter to measure current flow, adjust ing the setpoints may improve performance slightly.

     

    In short, the v 2.0 batteries are a drop in replacement for v 1.0.
    8 Aug 2013, 12:40 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Rick K.

     

    As you suggest the changes should be minimal. Just need to look at things like system component ratings and instrumentation set points if you wish to take advantage of the improved DCA which might well be the case for apps like the NS999.
    8 Aug 2013, 12:48 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2429) | Send Message
     
    iindelco - Actually, the improved DCA is "automatic"; it is *dynamic* charge acceptance, after all. If there is energy available, the battery charges quicker; if not, no change. The cabling is designed for maximum discharge, which is higher than maximum charging. Perhaps I am missing something, but I do not see any changes necessary for the charging system for the NS999 if 2.0s were installed.
    8 Aug 2013, 12:57 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    Thanks Rick!

     

    Good to know that an easy upgrade path exists - no delays added because of difficult changeovers.

     

    HardToLove
    8 Aug 2013, 01:20 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2770) | Send Message
     
    Rick
    Non techy type question here.
    I'm assuming there has to be a slower charge when the battery is below about 20% as well.
    Would you expound on that part for a minute as well?
    Same vocabulary? that sort of thing just as you did for the higher state of charge.

     

    THX
    8 Aug 2013, 09:16 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2429) | Send Message
     
    froggey, my understanding (not necessarily correct) is that the DCA is simply lower at low SOC, eg, < 20%. Delivering 13.5 v to a 2% SOC battery means the battery may accept only 10 amps, not 100 amps. (unsubstantiated guess, not a data point) As the battery charges, it accepts more, climbing to 100 amps or more. If the battery is very cold, charging will be even slower.

     

    I do not have any data on charging characteristics below 20% SOC, but have heard it is slower. I do not know if v 2.0 electrodes make any difference at low SOC.

     

    I assume ePower would try to manage their batteries to stay in the 20-80% bulk charge zone. The Pbc at 20% SOC is at approximately 6 v, which can be challenging for the drive motors and electronics.
    8 Aug 2013, 10:57 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    As a practical matter energy batteries like lithium-ion have to offer good operating performance at a low SOC because the devices that use them are designed to run the battery all the way down before giving you a "5% battery life remaining" message. Power batteries like the PbC, in comparison, will be used in devices that cycle their batteries up and down from an SOC set point and will rarely have more than a 30% to 40% swing from top of charge to bottom of discharge.
    9 Aug 2013, 05:23 AM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4205) | Send Message
     
    Rick, others with technical creds - a technical question re-DCA and PbC vs VRLA, FLABs.

     

    Does higher DCA mean more efficient charging? DOoes it take less energy to charge a PbC to 0.5kWh than it does for a VRLA (particularly after a few months in service and sulfation of the negative electrode has begun)?
    9 Aug 2013, 12:41 PM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2429) | Send Message
     
    D-inv. "Does higher DCA mean more efficient charging?" No.

     

    DCA merely mean the chemistry can accept accept a higher rate of charge. An analogy might be how gallons/hour of water come out of a lawn sprinkler assuming a constant hose pressure. Less resistance (bigger holes) = more water on the garden. Poor efficiency would be a lot of leaking hose connections on the driveway. The lost water goes down the drain; the lost electrons create heat that dissipates.

     

    Axion's pbC batteries are VRLA - valve regulated lead acid.

     

    Round trip efficiency, ie, whrs in to whrs out, is the measure of efficiency. RT eff% varies tremendously depending on charging rate (fast charging is less efficient), discharge rate (fast discharge is less efficient), temperature (hot batteries are less efficient), sulfation, age of battery, and probably lots of other factors. Conventional AGM battery marketing talk of "up to 85% efficient".

     

    The very limited information I have indicates that the Pcb may be somewhat less efficient than the best *conventional* AGM (absorbed glass mat - Axion batteries are also AGM). However, given the large range of charge/discharge profiles, I may be seeing inappropriate comparisons. For the high charge/discharge cycles that is the Bio-Carbon strength, a conventional AGM, while possibly more efficient, would have such a short life as to make the comparison meaningless.

     

    Most RT eff% with identified parameters are for C/20 (20 hours) cycles, or longer. The Bio-Carbon strength is more in the C/1 (one hour) range, so a direct comparison means almost nothing.

     

    The lower resistance of the v 2.0 electrodes should make the batteries more efficient - less heat is generated. I have not seen any data for v 2.0 batteries. AFAIK, Axion has not explicitly stated anything about efficiency data with v. 2.0.
    9 Aug 2013, 01:15 PM Reply Like
  • D-inv
    , contributor
    Comments (4205) | Send Message
     
    Thanks for the response, Rick.
    9 Aug 2013, 01:22 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    iindelco: "... accommodate the greater DCA".

     

    IIRC, improvement in DCA wasn't mentioned? It was a greater usable energy (i.e. wider SOC range?) that was the benefit.

     

    I stand, or sit, to be corrected, of course.

     

    HardToLove
    8 Aug 2013, 08:43 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2429) | Send Message
     
    HTL - the version 2.0 pBc has slightly more energy (kwh). The significant factor is lower internal resistance and higher charging rate (DCA).
    8 Aug 2013, 12:59 PM Reply Like
  • raleigh731
    , contributor
    Comments (292) | Send Message
     
    caught between greed and fear.....
    8 Aug 2013, 08:57 AM Reply Like
  • kevin lemm
    , contributor
    Comments (121) | Send Message
     
    Dont be caught between greed and fear, The product works. If your playing this game to win, then you should be buying at this price.
    8 Aug 2013, 09:38 AM Reply Like
  • raleigh731
    , contributor
    Comments (292) | Send Message
     
    Greed won. Added.
    8 Aug 2013, 09:44 AM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (1047) | Send Message
     
    Congratulations Relaigh.

     

    IIRC, TG hinted at a NS 999 rollout this summer. NS pretty explicitly stated in their sustainability report --- "In 2013, we plan to roll out the next generation NS 999". This may not happen on TG's time schedule, but I feel pretty confident it will happen on NS's. If so, buying in at these prices should pay off nicely.
    8 Aug 2013, 09:55 AM Reply Like
  • raleigh731
    , contributor
    Comments (292) | Send Message
     
    I feel the same way about NS. With such a strong statement being made by a company the size of NSC, and with e-power, and actually the progress that we KNOW about with BMW are enough for the greed to overpower the fear. Actually, am thinking that I should be greedier still!!
    8 Aug 2013, 10:04 AM Reply Like
  • geopark
    , contributor
    Comments (311) | Send Message
     
    >releigh

     

    Congrats too. I am the .1352 bidder/buyer this morning and happy about it. .14 was my buy target to fulfill my current quota so .0048/sh to the good.

     

    FWIW . . I only agree partially with Gordon Gecko's statement "Greed is good". I circumscribe my greed with a number of criteria, the most germane to this conversation being that this investment could well be exploited by bigger players than me and I be happy just to get a return of capital.

     

    Best of fortune to you,

     

    geopark
    8 Aug 2013, 10:18 AM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (723) | Send Message
     
    All right, I can't stand it any more. It's raining here and I'm using that as an excuse to dodge work. I can get away with it for half an hour maybe. :>)

     

    FWIW, I hope Tesla prospers. I think it's good for the home team. Also I'm tired of kicking TG for now. I'll kick him later. :>) So with that stipulation I wanna try to open two fun topics.

     

    First speculative : JP, got your ears on? It seems taxpayers are assisting rich folk to buy luxury electric autos. Seems nuts to me, but there it is.

     

    So, with that in mind, is there any movement afoot to the best of your knowledge to provide similar encouragement to ePower's customers? Doesn't it make sense to provide stimulation to that side of the emissions equation??

     

    If there is or could become so then the cost differential re: traditional vs. ePowerlectric engine overhaul becomes even more encouraging, yes? DRich ? JP ? WIO ? iindelco? HTL ? 3black?

     

    2nd Speculation to follow.
    8 Aug 2013, 11:09 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    VW: If ePower was using Lithium chemistry I suspect DOE would be on it like flies on ...

     

    Sans, that, I don't think there's much chance. Add in that they're apparently able to beat the long-term efficiency gains of the gummit truck program quite handily, and they don't won't to dump $ into a program that makes them look like they are that far behind the curve. Yeah, I know - aero, rolling resistance, ... etc. but still don't measure up, especially if ePowers solution is applied to all those things too.

     

    MHO,
    HardToLove
    8 Aug 2013, 11:40 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    Like most topics in the EV world I've written on Taxing Peter to Buy Paul's New Car – http://seekingalpha.co...

     

    There used to be a generous tax credit for heavy hybrid vehicles, but it expired in 2009.

     

    Seriously, why would any cunning politician support something like an ePower truck that uses 28 kWh of batteries to save 2,000 to 6,000 gallons of fuel per year when they can support a $7,500 credit for a Tesla that uses 85 kWh of batteries to save 500 gallons of fuel per year.
    8 Aug 2013, 11:42 AM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (723) | Send Message
     
    And I thought I was cynical :>)
    8 Aug 2013, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    John, And they are both in about the same price range/unit. With the exception that you don't need to augment infrastructure for the ePower conversion.
    8 Aug 2013, 12:37 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (880) | Send Message
     
    Which one puts their names in the headlines? The Super-Hyped or the Child of NDAs?

     

    Now if there was a song like ... "I got Power, ePower and I'm gonna ride ride ride." Maybe then there would be attention. ;)
    8 Aug 2013, 02:12 PM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (787) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Mr. I, Anyone and Everyone,

     

    I just thought I would present a possibility that is showing up on the tech charts. Now I know that it is a long shot and that the pattern doesn't exactly match but these days I am looking at anything for an optimism boost!

     

    AXPW is currently at $.1356 and drifting lower. I am proposing that we are nearing a "Double Bottom Reversal" when we hit on or near $.1251 for a second time.

     

    Double bottom reversal:
    http://bit.ly/LQiPz6

     

    I have provided a chart in my dropbox showing AXPW's chart. Maybe if enough people believe we can create a self fulfilling prophecy!

     

    http://bit.ly/15f4K3y
    8 Aug 2013, 11:11 AM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (1047) | Send Message
     
    >RBrun — It sure feels like we're scraping along the bottom at this time. It sounds like you’re thinking the same [thank you for providing a chart for illustration]. I think one possible catalyst for a double bottom reversal to happen is if some of the readers of Tom Konrad's AXPW articles start building a position at these prices. Seems like there’s got to be at least a few out there, and the pps sure seems low enough at this point.
    8 Aug 2013, 11:26 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    RBrun: Once the financing deal surfaced, I stopped looking at "standard" TA charts because I felt them unable to measure the effects of what the PIPErs might have in mind.

     

    I also consider my experimental stuff less useful because of this.

     

    HardToLove
    8 Aug 2013, 11:46 AM Reply Like
  • raleigh731
    , contributor
    Comments (292) | Send Message
     
    I gotta think that the Axionista population is growing. Sure would like to know. Maybe the Census Bureau should get involved.....If they do, we'll know in 4 or 5 years...
    8 Aug 2013, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • RBrun357
    , contributor
    Comments (787) | Send Message
     
    HTL,

     

    Here I was enjoying the morning smoking my hopium and you go and rain on my parade! ;-((
    8 Aug 2013, 11:48 AM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (723) | Send Message
     
    2nd Speculation.

     

    JP obviously has to avoid this topic like the plague but I do not, so here goes.

     

    If we assume ePower does well and becomes a super customer what then? Stipulate that they ramp up steeply. To do so they will have to go public and we can own part of that also. Of course if they do well, AXPW will do well also.

     

    Assume an IPO in 18 months or so. ePower is ramping up quickly. In all likelihood we would be in another five year wait. Whatchagonnabuy? What makes you richer quicker ? Or do you wait for the appearance of the next rebuild outfit . . . or even OEM that finds what Axion provides irresistible?

     

    So. If you can have only one. Only one. Whatchawant?
    AXPW or EPWR .

     

    And NO ! I refuse to ask the obvious question: Ginger or Mary Ann ? That's sexist and irrelevant to the discussion. Or for the benefit of our Charming number of many digits: Sean Connery or Russell Crowe ?
    8 Aug 2013, 11:24 AM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    VW: You forgot G. Clooney for our fairer participant.

     

    HardToLove
    8 Aug 2013, 11:43 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    I want both because the synergies are so amazing. Within a couple months ePower will have two new third-generation prototypes in fuel economy testing.

     

    The first will be the heavy third-generation retrofit with a six-cylinder engine for the Class 8B market (GVW 60,000 to 80,000 pounds with a 20 ton average payload).

     

    The second will be a lighter third-generation retrofit with the four-cylinder engine built on a "Day cab" chassis for the Class 8A market (GVW 33,000 to 60,000 with a 9 ton average payload). In addition to being a perfect fit for the Class 8A market, the day cab retrofit will also be ideal for the EU market where lighter loads and lower speeds are the law.

     

    Axion's big problem right now is that it can't point to a credible Customer #1. As soon as that customer arrives on the scene with documented performance that only the PbC can offer, the presumption will shift from "everything they're doing will fail" to "everything they're doing will succeed."

     

    If ePower succeeds in its goal of becoming a system developer that simply drop-ships conversion kits to trained installers, it may not need the huge capital infusion that would justify an IPO.
    8 Aug 2013, 11:52 AM Reply Like
  • Treehill
    , contributor
    Comments (135) | Send Message
     
    VW: "In all likelihood we would be in another five year wait."

     

    I question that we would have to wait another 5 years to benefit. If what e-power is trying to provide works as well as reports so far, it will be a compelling technology that will literally force truckers to adopt it if they want to compete. News will spread quickly and e-power will be a star, leading investors (and potential competitors) to focus on what makes it work and where the money can be made. That will lead back to us, especially if they can't invest in e-power.

     

    In my mind e-power could be like Westport Innovations. They've been losing money for years (I don't think they've ever been profitable) yet they have a $1.5 billion market cap. Investors are focusing on the potential growth. The same will happen with e-power and Axion.

     

    If I had a choice, I'd invest in Axion as one can get the shares for considerably less than what they should be priced. I doubt that will happen with e-power. The potential return here is huge.
    8 Aug 2013, 01:10 PM Reply Like
  • 12100606
    , contributor
    Comments (86) | Send Message
     
    The most handsome? It's a close race between Ranma and Valleywood. Both have friendly faces, smiling eyes, and are well groomed. I just can't decide between ears up or ears down.
    8 Aug 2013, 03:11 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1842) | Send Message
     
    I was giddy for a moment.
    8 Aug 2013, 04:05 PM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (723) | Send Message
     
    cute
    8 Aug 2013, 05:57 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2770) | Send Message
     
    Not to be immodest I think it's between me and IIndelco. (as opposed to those hairy beasts.) ;)
    8 Aug 2013, 09:29 PM Reply Like
  • tripleblack
    , contributor
    Comments (13542) | Send Message
     
    I agree. It should be a "cold blooded" decision.
    8 Aug 2013, 09:39 PM Reply Like
  • Renzo
    , contributor
    Comments (352) | Send Message
     
    C'mon... I carry a big stick!
    8 Aug 2013, 10:16 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    OK, I'm in the contest to WIN. I'll take advantage of the most recent theme, and my short lived time advantage, given my enticement due to the building euphoria. My case. I share almost all of the characteristics being put forth as an advantage. Plus, since I'm showing my youth, I'll also emphasize a higher level of vigor and no embedded preconceived notions.

     

    Alas, certainly not very important, I'll concede the ear metric.

     

    Sorry guys but friendship aside, there seems to be some sort of prize at stake. Cold blooded ( hearted ) indeed!
    9 Aug 2013, 12:49 AM Reply Like
  • 12100606
    , contributor
    Comments (86) | Send Message
     
    And DRich is above it all. Such ego.
    9 Aug 2013, 09:00 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    Those of us who are avoiding the beauty pageant know our limitations.
    9 Aug 2013, 09:08 AM Reply Like
  • 12100606
    , contributor
    Comments (86) | Send Message
     
    That's good, JP, because you would not even prequalify.
    9 Aug 2013, 09:24 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    But I'm humble enough to understand my shortcomings and abstain.
    9 Aug 2013, 10:07 AM Reply Like
  • Al Marshall
    , contributor
    Comments (531) | Send Message
     
    I would like to see Mr. Granville discuss the relationship between PbC batteries sold for testing purposes and the huge increases in RFP activity he has mentioned.

     

    In recent quarters, PbC revenue figures have been lower after a bump up last summer (if my memory serves) despite the increase in RFP activity. Admittedly, the relationship could have a lot of lags and there might be enough test data that potential customers no longer feel compelled to test to the same extent earlier customers required.
    8 Aug 2013, 11:45 AM Reply Like
  • WayneinOregon
    , contributor
    Comments (1047) | Send Message
     
    JCI's latest forecast on number of stop/start vehicles by 2017. Comes from article: "Start-stop technology to be standard on 2014 Malibus". --- http://bit.ly/1cvafEp

     

    The advanced lead-acid batteries are immensely profitable for Johnson Controls, said analyst David Whiston at Morningstar Inc. in Chicago. --- The company is in the process of expanding its production capacity worldwide, an investment of $520 million, to meet growing demand. The company is forecasting 50 million start-stop vehicles worldwide by 2017, up from 11 million last year.
    8 Aug 2013, 12:09 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    Those are really scary numbers when you remember that Frost & Sullivan's most optimistic 2008 estimate was 18 million a year in 2015.

     

    http://bit.ly/133kbl8

     

    The thing that makes JCI's estimates so compelling is that they're based on production planning discussions with current customers instead of a top down analysis of market drivers.
    8 Aug 2013, 12:22 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (880) | Send Message
     
    If only JCI planned to use a certain battery component in their batteries, life would be GOOD.
    8 Aug 2013, 01:51 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >greentongue ... I'm certain JCI would make use of a certain battery technology we have all heard of ... if they could own it.
    8 Aug 2013, 02:26 PM Reply Like
  • greentongue
    , contributor
    Comments (880) | Send Message
     
    I think multiple companies have considered buying up Axion. Considering the current PIPE, they have been turned down. The followup question is how vindictive are those that have been snubbed? A lot of the "Ruling Class" have the connections and money to punish those that oppose them. Many are like the Greek gods, powerful and narcissistic.
    8 Aug 2013, 06:02 PM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    I shudder at the notion of pinning my hopes upon BMW's implementation of the PbC in a SS iteration. Their attempts thus far have been met with negative real world evaluations and in the scheme of things they are a relatively small market (luxury/expensive). However, I am ecstatic about the possibilities when/if their (BMW's) push to a 'partnering' with an established battery OEM occurs.

     

    I think this is one of the major stumbling blocks to adoption for various SS implementations. Concerns about AXION's ability to scale for real demands, should this tech be utilized, has got to be a major consideration for any auto OEM. Further, 'partnering' (in whatever form) with an established battery OEM will also provide substantial legitimacy to the tech found with the PbC. The auto OEM's are spinning in many directions with their various designs for SS vehicles and none have really settled on a clear direction or expectation. (In troubleshooting vernacular this is referred o as a shotgun approach) Couple this engineering mayhem with a mini upstart battery company with a 'secret miracle' battery and the results should surprise no one! It isn't even hard to understand the reluctance of many battery OEM's to accept this 'secret miracle' battery as a new product that they would be associated with, but for BMW's apparent enthusiasm.

     

    Many here want to take the lack of sales into the auto OEM market as being a failing on the part of AXION's sales staff (includes Vani) or TG's ability to transition to a commercialization role is misguided. This seems to be more an issue of unfounded expectations on the part of some of the critics here and very reasonable impatience.

     

    When I have tried to suggest that the Gov't lack of clear incentives for A-OEM's to utilize SS designs, the A-OEM's lack of a clear SS design direction so far, lack of consumer satisfaction with most SS designs (excluding consideration for price premiums or different mpg benefits), and the many many efficiencies/dysfunctions the auto sector bring to bear---I have generally been met with attempts to 'reeducate' my concerns/perceptions because it has been much more palatable to presume our 'secret miracle battery' was a no-brainer for this application. It may well be a no-brainer but that hasn't been an attitude adopted by the bulk of the A-OEM's yet.

     

    Dr. Buiel suggested the need for CTO (Chief Technical Officer) to hawk this technology beyond the mere sales and marketing types that I am guessing is AXION's current strategy. Some here want even more/better salesmen and marketing efforts, but I think Dr. Buiel's efforts in this realm and his methods could go a long way toward broadening and clarifying to the other A-OEM's why the PbC is the answer to many of their problems. Lack of a Dr. Buiell type out in the real world developing relationships with several A-OEM's, as he did with BMW, is a legitimate criticism of the Co. Instead we (some) would rather tilt windmills and focus on making a stand by voting against the proposed Board members and share dilution. I hope that works out for those doing so and that they feel vindicated after. Heck, it won't really hurt anything (nor do I believe it will help the Co.) so why not if it helps them (the voters) to find some peace/strength?

     

    TG has not overly impressed me, but the effort he made to mitigate some of the perceptual damage when Mr. Trego resigned was excellent, even if late. Blaming him for the pace of evolution at NS is absurd. Expecting a CEO to offer specific information about why an employee or Officer leaves the Co. is selfish and stupid. Expecting TG to describe manufacturing obstacles in detail (rolled carbon sheeting limitations) before they are resolved wouldn't be tolerated by me from the line staff, let alone an officer of the Co. (Sure I would have liked to know about them and would have modified my investment strategy in the company had I known, but that is exactly why he should not have described this deficiency). TG's responsibility is survival of the tech and the Co., NOT shooting the Co. in the foot.

     

    I am unhappy with the lack of sales, I am unhappy with the lack of information about the PbC batteries operating characteristics and limitations, I wish their were a broader reach for other niches, I wish there were better relationships with more A-OEM's, I hope there will be a signed agreement with a battery OEM now, NOT soon!

     

    As an investor I am comfortable with having discussion of perceived Co. or Officer disappointments and various wish lists. I am not comfortable with broad senses of entitlement that I think we sometimes cling to when we are disappointed in our own decisions and interpretations. I can't defend all aspects of TG's leadership but some of the condemnation of his leadership for my (our) exaggerated exuberance about the PbC would be pitiful and cowardly.

     

    I do expect the CC should start on time and if the myriad of questions posted on this board are answered I would be amazed and pleased. At the same time I will neither be surprised or significantly chagrined if they are not. Meanwhile I will continue to hold (maybe add) and anticipate future reward.
    8 Aug 2013, 01:47 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    BMW, Hardly worth the effort. I want something big!

     

    But you're right when contrasted to total WW auto sales.

     

    BTW. If they adopt it raises the ante for everyone in the vehicle classes supported by the technology.

     

    "BMW Group posts highest sales ever in 2012

     

    1,845,186 BMW Group vehicles sold, an increase of 10.6%"

     

    http://bit.ly/ZZUlw8
    8 Aug 2013, 02:41 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    42itus1, BTW, I have no problem with your overall message. I will however point out that it is Mr. Granville setting the overall expectations concerning progress. And when these efforts fail to materialize or get delayed he chooses not to report out on progress. Given this has happened more than a few times are we to expect that interested parties are to accept the "head in the sand" approach to their DD efforts on an ongoing basis?

     

    When you are a start-up company one of your biggest assets, along with your progress toward implementing your business plan, is the goodwill you garner from how you communicate to the customers, potential customers, employees and investors. I would suggest, that at least in the case of the last group, that he is not working his way toward a very good grade in his performance. And since this group finances his ability to offer any hope to all the groups this is not positive.

     

    If in some aspects we react in ways that are not fully thought out or rational I suspect it doesn't matter very much. The point is that the clamor is indicative of a problem and it's not improving the chances for the companies success. This might, or maybe I'm wrong, be an area that the CEO should be concerned about and react to.

     

    Perhaps his days as a union contract negotiator have put him at a disadvantage in some areas of his new position. Then he had a captive audience. I doubt that's currently the case.
    8 Aug 2013, 03:02 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... Eh ! Intermittent windshield wiper controls took quite a while to become standard equipment. If PbC S/S gets adopted by BMW, then I'll be willing to wait for the industry to catch up. They don't need to be the highest in sales ... just the best idea available.
    8 Aug 2013, 03:32 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco ... Maybe he just looks at the rest of the world outside of Axion as a Worker's Union and treats it that way. Is that good or bad? Kinda depends on how the management side of the table thinks about it and if they are getting what they want. Workers seldom think they're getting everything they deserve.

     

    Workers of the World ... Unite.
    8 Aug 2013, 03:36 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    DRich, It's a fascinating story.

     

    Robert Kearns

     

    http://bit.ly/14APIfk
    -
    Yes, I can wait quite awhile for good things to bear fruit when I'm not having to watch the asset I hold in high regard dancing with the devil for loose change. Good things find a way to market but as we see from the interesting story you pointed out the planter of the tree doesn't always pick the fruit.
    8 Aug 2013, 03:53 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    I love the phrase "dancing with the devil for loose change." It's demeaning as hell but far better than selling your soul for a few dollars more.
    8 Aug 2013, 03:58 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    DRich, having worked for long periods of time in a, far too often, contentious union environment (non-union) I will tell you that it will change you forever and not for the better. You are forced to learn "street smarts" that often make you appear to be and often function as a person you do not want to be. There are reasons for the relationship but the parties that have to interact together suffer in ways they would never hope for.
    8 Aug 2013, 04:01 PM Reply Like
  • Alphameister
    , contributor
    Comments (1428) | Send Message
     
    Axion has shown progress in each of the three areas of concern to me, but it has done so in slow motion relative to the expectations raised by Dr. Pangloss. It would be much easier to be patient in regard to such slow-motion progress were it not for the company's need to raise capital at frequent intervals and the threat of excruciating dilution if the recent PIPE financing is a guide.
    8 Aug 2013, 04:22 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    John, I'm pleased to find that one phrase that I've uttered caught your interest. You've created, gathered and shared so many finely incorporated phrases into your writings that I've so enjoyed. I'm happy to have at least given you just a pittance in return based on my limited literary skill set. I feel just a little taller today! :-)
    8 Aug 2013, 04:23 PM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    With your permission I plan to incorporate your wonderfully descriptive phrase into my list of favorites. I'll probably do it in any event but Mother always taught me I should ask politely first, even if I intend to ignore a no.
    8 Aug 2013, 04:43 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    John, No guarantee I didn't pick it up from somewhere during my journeys anyway. Don't think so but doesn't matter. Having it added to your list, even if I'm just the delivery boy, is good for a personal smile. I may be the C student watching a master communicator but darned if he didn't give me a C+ once for a phrase well utilized.

     

    OK, back to poor spelling, punctuation and destroying the English language.
    8 Aug 2013, 05:17 PM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    >iindelco,
    I have to concede/concur with this criticism of Mr. Granville and believe it to be a valid one.

     

    I stand corrected on this point!

     

    Thanks
    8 Aug 2013, 06:14 PM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    The list of favorites sounds interesting.
    8 Aug 2013, 08:09 PM Reply Like
  • SMaturin
    , contributor
    Comments (2302) | Send Message
     
    iindelco,

     

    It is a pleasure to see a man take pride in his butchery.
    8 Aug 2013, 11:19 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    DRich, What really keeps me interested here, besides the fact that I love the sector, is the potential that I feel this technology has. So in spite of my grumbling, I do see potential returns that are still quite satisfactory. It's just that there is nothing that bothers me worse than seeing players garner huge advantage from my pocket via channels I don't have access to. I guess it's just another of the infinite reminders that my first name isn't George and I didn't have millions of people waiting for my arrival. ;))

     

    PS Knowing automotive gives me the opportunity to not be as concerned about the timing with BMW. Although timing is getting to be more of a concern if we're looking at a 2016 MY application. NSC I don't know so they are irritating the heII out of me. I have a pretty good feel for the technology involved since I've walked many programs from product concept through launch that were valued well into the 30-60 million USD range being responsible for the production resources blank paper to fully ramped stable production. The NS999 is clearly not a program that is getting fast tracked. ( The technology I understand, electrical and mechanical, and not the safety/regulatory implications of the program. Not to be minimized I can imagine.)

     

    PPS "Love the sector". (Head examination required).
    8 Aug 2013, 04:59 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    This is an interesting offer if you have use for a small city car. The duration is a pretty long commitment though.

     

    Smart Fortwo ED gets $139/month lease; buyers can rent battery for $80/month

     

    http://aol.it/14pACGP
    8 Aug 2013, 05:29 PM Reply Like
  • froggey77
    , contributor
    Comments (2770) | Send Message
     
    IIndelco

     

    <"We are passing the [$7,500] federal tax credit along as a very attractive lease." Smart made the price changes August 1 but didn't put out an official announcement about it because there was no change to the Fortwo's MSRP (which remains $25,000). Instead, Smart USA is offering its dealers $2,000 in "marketing assistance" to lower the cost, and Webster said they will "probably pass it along to the customer." We're skeptical.>

     

    This was essentially what Fiat just did with their 500e.
    Customers ordered got to the dealership, who said, we're not a participating dealer. (In the fine print) BTW the car has options you didn't order either.
    But will have to pay for or we'll call the next guy in line.
    Basically take it or leave it.
    Not the best way to treat customers.
    8 Aug 2013, 10:07 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    Cost of the buses in SK for the inductive charge experimental project. Special thanks to the commenter on GCC.

     

    S. Korea tests 'electric road' for public buses

     

    "As a result it requires a battery only one-fifth the size of conventional electric vehicles.

     

    The system also eliminates the need for overhead wires used to power conventional trams or trolley buses.

     

    The technology does not come cheap, with each OLEV costing around 700 million won ($630,000).

     

    "The technology is readily available but the question is how to bring down the cost," said Park Jong-Han, manager of the company that produced the OLEV prototypes."

     

    http://bit.ly/15gGiik

     

    The GCC article for ref.

     

    http://bit.ly/15gGiil
    8 Aug 2013, 06:50 PM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    It is interesting, considering some of the discussions here, that Rosewater still shows the HUB in their residential brochure as having an Axion pBc battery for storage (Rick K. I caught your humor). I will not rehash any speculation as there are people here that have dug deeper into this relationship than I.

     

    Sorry if this point was already discussed and I missed it.

     

    http://bit.ly/1chtsdv
    8 Aug 2013, 07:37 PM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1732) | Send Message
     
    Would anyone comment on how long it takes to get an agreement with a battery company to integrate electrodes when a good customer says, "We want this?"

     

    Why is this taking months?
    8 Aug 2013, 08:40 PM Reply Like
  • DRich
    , contributor
    Comments (4673) | Send Message
     
    >thotdoc ... I've absolutely no idea. That said, I can easily see negotiations taking 9 to 12 months. My opinion is that this manufacturing agreement is the most important thing Axion has to do and it needs to be done correctly. It should be the consuming interest of Mr. Granville and whatever legal staff Axion has. The company will grow or be stunted by the outcome. Still it should not be the central focus of the company at large.

     

    Just my opinion. Thus meaningless.
    8 Aug 2013, 08:53 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    Totally agree DRich. I was writing my comment as you posted yours and I didn't see it until I finished mine. This issue should be TG's virtual sole focus and he better not be waiting for the phone to ring. He needs to get his frequent flyer card out and burn it up traveling and talking to prospects. I frankly don't know if he has the skill set needed to address this issue successfully. The results, positive or negative, will clarify that question.
    8 Aug 2013, 09:12 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
    Comments (18056) | Send Message
     
    Thotdoc: I posted a comment earlier when it occurred to me that it may not be as simple as it appears. From Iindelco's, and others', description of tier 1, tier 2, ... the basic agreement seems simple enough unil we throw in supply-chain issues (carbon), warranty allocation and handling, etc.

     

    So I figured another some months to make sure the carbon is available in quantity, at the consistent needed quality, ... which means the carbon supplier has to be involved somewhere in the considerations.

     

    Some agreement on record keeping and systems to handle defective product, warranty, ...

     

    These were my thoughts that caused me to add some more time until agreement reached that would satisfy the whole chain from raw materials to end user.

     

    HardToLove
    9 Aug 2013, 08:50 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    HTL, Right on. We tend to look with great detail at the things we understand based on our individual backgrounds and what we've discussed here. But we tend not to fully appreciate much of the detail we've just never had to deal with.

     

    For instance we've been talking about BMW not wanting sole source for the battery. Well the tier 1 supplier has the same considerations. For example they want dual source for the activated carbon (I checked and I know of at least one more in Europe), and the corrosion barrier for the copper current collector as a second example. Oh, and teflon binder.

     

    But sourcing decisions also go beyond just having 2 guys dat' can make em'. It also includes things like finding the right sources based on how you are going to scale production over time. Remember we are looking at servicing global companies.

     

    So component sourcing decisions and information is one thing. Oh, and the tier 1 would probably want signed agreements in place before they feel comfortable. And some of this same effort extends into the tier 2 and even tier 3 suppliers.

     

    Then we have any number of other considerations. Another quick example. Cost and access to money. Potential tier one's might not be sitting on 100 or 200 million USD's to sign on for this application. So now you're talking to bankers. And you might need land for a plant. Talking with regulators and government officials?

     

    So just a few things to point out some of the many details that need to be gathered to then put the business case together. Business case? Yep, board members and stock holders want to know you're gonna make money when you invest money and take risks. And all this can't be done in parallel.

     

    So anyway this is all beyond me because while I've been near such processes and contributed little pieces, I've not taken a leading role in gathering all the information and packaging all inclusive business plans for the global scaling of new product lines. There's a ton of "stuff" that needs to come together.

     

    Then you start to negotiate and back feed all the changes as you work your way through multiparty negotiations. UGH! I'm getting light headed! ;)
    9 Aug 2013, 09:31 AM Reply Like
  • thotdoc
    , contributor
    Comments (1732) | Send Message
     
    Thank you to every one who responded. It really is more clear now.
    9 Aug 2013, 01:25 PM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    I will rejoin the conversation briefly because in my absence from discussion with the APH I have been thinking about Axion's sales impediments. Although not posting I have been a steady reader.

     

    Two glaring issues to me in terms of sales are that (1) any system that designs in the PbC is also creating (2) a sole source supplier as things currently stand. Obviously ePower wasn't worried about it because without the PbC they essentially didn't have a cost effective system that worked as intended. BMW raised the sole source issue with Axion and said you better fix this.

     

    I think the sole source issue with companies is a major impediment to selling the PbC. Throw in the financial condition of the company and a 13 cents and change stock price and you create severe problems overcoming sales resistance to buying the PbC.

     

    Trying to rationalize this problem away is a fool's game to me. I think Axion needs manufacturing partners more than any single other thing if it is going to succeed. The more the merrier. Yeah, there are issues to resolve (not the least of which is resistance from AGM manufacturers who probably hope the PbC goes the way of the dodo bird), but if Axion doesn't entice some companies into partnering with it than I think there is little chance Axion will survive.

     

    The next conference call is going to be interesting. I won't be participating, but it is time those that are still holding the stock asked hard-ball business questions first versus any technical questions. I hope the conference doesn't end with another unsubstantiated encouraging Granvillism like "we have a extra bounce in our step" bs. It's time for real information and not pablum like that.

     

    I would desperately like to rebuy Axion stock and recover my 70% or more losses of the past few years. When it was kicking around at .18 I thought to myself let's see where it is late Friday afternoon. It took a couple of Friday's and a tad more to fall back to .13 and change. My intuition was correct. I have no idea what the stock price is going to do from here, but I just don't believe any AXPW stock price means anything until something significant happens on the sales front. I also don't have a clue when that will occur either.

     

    If Tom Granville keeps up with his past performances I won't have a clue about the future of the company after the conference call either
    8 Aug 2013, 09:04 PM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    Hello Bangwhiz,

     

    I agree completely about the need for a manufacturing 'partner' as a paramount consideration.

     

    A second consideration that is very close in importance is the need for a very strong technical mouthpiece beating the bushes for new and similar niche markets for this hidden gem.

     

    With the latter, none of us would much care about TG's CC performance for the our tech Star would be offering a multitude of performances, as did Dr. Bueil. Building relationships, providing real technical expertise, generating PR, guiding us and them through various new territories, building technical documentation of our mystery jewel that is actually shared publicly (on the Co. website). Remember how it used to be?? Occasional white papers, substantive presentations in various venues that didn't mimic CC info., actual presentations--not just attendance or invites to be a part of round table discussions of the other presenters 'stuff'!! We didn't have to speculate and build inordinate expectations out of thin air!! There were actual tidbits and crumbs to build from. I miss that and so does the the sectors that would benefit from same. And then the contacts that would follow could be handed off to Vani & co. until the expertise was needed again. Call it CTO or Top Dog or..., but the role is an absolute must!
    8 Aug 2013, 11:21 PM Reply Like
  • mrholty
    , contributor
    Comments (1041) | Send Message
     
    Isn't Enders probably the closest thing to a CTO in the company today?
    8 Aug 2013, 11:59 PM Reply Like
  • Ranma
    , contributor
    Comments (1842) | Send Message
     
    We've forgotten about Enders, haven't we? He is another Ph.D Axion has on board. The technical side is well covered yet.
    9 Aug 2013, 12:23 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    Good point, Mr. Holty.
    9 Aug 2013, 12:33 AM Reply Like
  • Stefan Moroney
    , contributor
    Comments (2656) | Send Message
     
    42itus1 -

     

    I miss that as well. FWIW, I eat the technical presentations up.

     

    Mr. Holty just mentioned Enders Dickenson that has been a CTO type person for Axion. He presented at the International Lead Conference and SAE conferences and probably other places

     

    It's too bad that they don't post more of what he creates or where he presents. Would be nice for them to post the SAE papers, but not sure if SAE would allow it.
    9 Aug 2013, 12:43 AM Reply Like
  • 42itus1
    , contributor
    Comments (228) | Send Message
     
    >Ranma & mrholty,

     

    I think questions regarding Dr. Enders may be covered by an NDA so I am hesitant to talk of his role at AXION!

     

    Seriously, regardless of his standing in the Co. or his scientific prowess he doesn't appear to be the kind of 'Front Man' I was suggesting. My understanding is that there are several scientists in house, but we hear and see very little of their field experience(s). Other than when ePower sought out the PbC, IIRC, BMW, NS, and the PC were all developed under the tutelage of Dr. Buiel. In spite of my recent rant about Dr. Buiel, further reflection has brought me to a new appreciation for his apparent passion for the tech that he enthusiastically promoted along with the science he facilitated while still there.

     

    In house science is a very different beast from what I would hope was out in the field pumping this tech. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN THE CO.'s PROFILE SINCE HE LEFT. I hope that.... No I think it is imperative that the Co.'s profile get some stature/exposure once again.
    9 Aug 2013, 01:02 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    But remember one point as it relates to the Enders Dickenson discussion. Capability and personal motivation does not always align with corporate needs. Just because you have talented musicians it doesn't mean you have an orchestra.
    9 Aug 2013, 01:10 AM Reply Like
  • bangwhiz
    , contributor
    Comments (2248) | Send Message
     
    What Axion had in Dr. Buiel was a good Technology Evangelist. See definition here: http://bit.ly/11QpOjX It's a common position title in the computer technology field which is where the term was first coined I believe.

     

    Dr. Buiel made a presentation that drew BMW's and other auto company's initial interest in the PbC. I think TG thought Axion was near a fairly quick hit on several fronts (DOE, BMW, NSC) and didn't allocate any budget after Ed left to continue the effort. Maybe Enders did and did a good job, but I think the volume of presentations, white papers and conference meetings has dropped off to almost nothing I can detect. Maybe I am deaf dumb and blind.

     

    Ideally you team up a great sales person with a great technology evangelist and they play tag team on any decent prospect. At least that's the way I always managed sales as a non-technical VP of sales within engineering and R&D companies. However, I've never agreed with Axion's business development effort anyway.

     

    I remember Vani's resume or some write up about him saying he generated $500M in proposals at his last now defunct employer. I am not sure, frankly, if he is one of those guys who throws as much paper up against the wall as possible hoping something sticks, or if he really is a super sales executive. Based on his foot in the mouth boner about NSC's future locomotive buying plans I'd say he is more of a paper pusher and coordinator than a super sales VP. Just spit balling based on impressions that might be entirely undeserved. I haven't even met the guy.

     

    Having expressed my Axion thoughts for a change I will disappear back into the wood work again and continue "wishing and hoping and etc" for Axion. I want my money back!
    9 Aug 2013, 01:10 AM Reply Like
  • John Petersen
    , contributor
    Comments (30232) | Send Message
     
    As I understand the law, manufacturing partnerships and patents are strange bedfellows. If I own a patent and want to keep it to myself I can do so with impunity. Once I start engaging in activities that let more than one other company use my intellectual property, I have to do so in a way that creates a level playing field for everybody that wants to use my IP.

     

    That requirement precludes that possibility that I can give Partner A an "extra special deal" because he was the first to step up. It also creates a risk that if I sign agreements with A, B and C, but then give D a more advantageous term, I'll have to go back and offer the same more advantageous term to A, B and C.

     

    Due to the nature of my practice and the fact that I'm generally long gone by the time clients have to start worrying about these kinds of IP issues, my knowledge of both the law and the practice is quite limited. But I do know that the partnering decisions Axion makes today are decisions it will have to live with forever and it's very easy to make critical mistakes in the rush to get something, anything, nailed down.

     

    When the first contract you negotiate is the best you can ever do, you really want a consummate professional like Granville who takes the time to nail down every important point and tie up all the loose ends without succumbing to the natural pressure to "get it done now."

     

    A manufacturing partner is of paramount importance, but rushing the process is a great way to lose the IP advantage you've spent years building.
    9 Aug 2013, 05:42 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
    Comments (9575) | Send Message
     
    Hey Bang, Nice to see you're still hanging around. Hope all's well.

     

    Concerning the sole source issue. I certainly hope for people that have been coming to this forum or to the Yadoodle board in the past this is not a new revelation. It's a standard requirement in automotive and I, as well as others, have broached this topic on many occasions. Nobody should be surprised about the fact that large scale automotive will not be pulling production PbC batteries out of an outdated battery plant in Newcastle PA as supplied by an under capitalized start-up company that has little manufacturing creed in the auto sector.

     

    What Axion has are patents, a solid heavily tested proven technology and a validated, if not yet fully optimized, manufacturing process. Given the right business case for the auto OEM(s), potential tier one suppliers and Axion that covers a significant portion of the risk of bringing this technology to market.

     

    So, How competitive is the PbC vs alternative technologies today and over the next 5 years? That's where one of the biggest risks lies for the tech.

     

    And for the investor. Timing is a huge factor. As we've seen money is very expensive.
    9 Aug 2013, 08:31 AM Reply Like
  • Valleywood
    , contributor
    Comments (723) | Send Message
     
    Good morning, Bang !

     

    I agree completely that if Axion has any genuine hope for the auto market they must have a manufacturing partner. Evidently they do also because they have made that an issue in public.

     

    That suggests to me an excellent reason for an "information blackout". NDAs over something like manufacturing expansion or enhancement for one of our (hopefully) two partners would be excruciatingly tight it seems to me.

     

    Your thoughts?
    9 Aug 2013, 08:31 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
    , contributor
    Comments (2429) | Send Message
     
    iindelco - You mentioned that Axion has "a validated, if not yet fully optimized, manufacturing process" I was not aware it was validated. By who? Was there an announcement I missed?
    9 Aug 2013, 09:44 AM Reply Like
  • iindelco
    , contributor
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    Rick, Sorry. Not Validated per automotive standards. I'm going on what I've heard in the cc's that the process is running as expected "finally".

     

    It is clearly not validated by an automotive OEM. Sorry for the confusion. I should know better to be clear on this point.
    9 Aug 2013, 09:52 AM Reply Like
  • LabTech
    , contributor
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    IINDelco and Rick,
    So here's my question. In Konrad's Forbes article, he said that BMW didn't want a sole source for the batteries and so Axion entered into contracts with a battery company of BMW's choice to fix this. However, when Konrad, in response to OMY's post, asked TG whether or not they needed a another battery company, besides the one they are already in discussions with to meet the need for two battery manufactures, Konrad said that TG told him no that Axion was the other of the two. So if that's true, doesn't that suggest that BMW has validated Axion's lines for their use? What am I missing? Or do you think that BMW has certified the electrode line and so doesn't need two sources of batteries, but instead just wants two sources of electrodes? Which would bring into question whether Axion will need to build a second electrode line at BMW's battery plant.
    9 Aug 2013, 11:37 AM Reply Like
  • Rick Krementz
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    Lab Tech - responding accurately with the near total absence of information from Axion is difficult.

     

    An auto company wants 2 (or more) 1st-tier suppliers. A 1st-tier supplier would be the battery manufacturer that was validated. If Axion is the second battery manufacturer, I am not aware that it has been validated. My data-free guess is that getting New Castle validated would be very challenging, and that another 1st-tier battery manufacturer is required. I'd love a link to the contrary.

     

    A battery company needs 2 (or more) 2nd-tier suppliers for the carbon electrodes, unless it is making the electrodes in-house. Not clear to me is whether the robotic electrode line is validated. It should be relatively easy to reproduce. A robotic electrode line is likely to be built at the battery manufacturer location.

     

    Unclear is whether the automated sheeting line is validated. Axion may be considered a 3rd-tier supplier providing either the carbon sheeting or the electrodes. A continuous multi-stage rolling process contains a great deal of proprietary information, mostly unpatentable, and often is very difficult to reproduce.

     

    As I wrote earlier, I don't want to be the supply chain manager having to explain why $100m of cars are stuck at the factory because a thousand pounds of coconuts are stuck in rural Pennsylvania. A car manufacturer wants a second source of carbon sheeting.

     

    In short, we know almost nothing. I would guess that BMW would not want to signal that Axion has been validated, so a press release is unlikely until there are real orders in house.
    9 Aug 2013, 12:27 PM Reply Like
  • H. T. Love
    , contributor
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    Rick: "If Axion is the second battery manufacturer ..."

     

    IIRC, what John has posted is that Axion's plant equipment for full automotive-scale battery production is too antiquated and wouldn't be cost effective. OK for small-lot stuff, but not sufficient for automotive-scale.

     

    HardToLove
    9 Aug 2013, 12:45 PM Reply Like